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SA81Q3 - 第三次问答会
瑞士，萨能，1981年7月31日



0:22 Krishnamurti: This is the last question and answer meeting. Probably we shall meet again next year. 克里希那穆提：这是最后 一次问答会了。 明年我们也许会再次见面。
0:48 One always wonders why one asks questions. Is it out of curiosity, or to stimulate, a challenging question which will stimulate the speaker and so bring out something new, or we ask questions, which are put by a serious person with a serious problem. If it is a serious problem in one's life, then such questions have an import, have a sense of vitality, and such questions can be answered truthfully, in depth. There are some of these questions which have been put, which I have chosen this morning, or rather, last night. And there are too many questions altogether, probably over about 150, and it is impossible to answer all those questions. So we have chosen what is, probably, applicable to all those questions, and not according to what one likes or easy to answer, but we have chosen these. And I hope you will excuse us if we do not answer all the questions. 我一直纳闷 我们为什么要提问。 是出于好奇， 还是为了激励讲者， 也就是用挑战性的问题激励讲者 说出些新的东西来， 还是说，我们问的 是由严肃的人 提出的严肃的问题。 如果这是个人生中的严肃问题， 那么，这种问题就很重要， 就有活力， 这样的问题就可以得到如实的、深入的回答。 这些问题当中的一些，是我今天早上， 更确切地说， 是昨晚挑选出来的。 所有问题加起来实在太多了， 大概有150多个， 不可能全都回答一遍。 所以，我们挑选的那些问题或许 适用于所有问题， 我们没有根据自己的喜好或问题的难易， 而是选择了这样一些问题。 希望大家能够体谅一下， 要是我们没有全都回答的话。
2:58 Questioner: I hope you excuse me for disturbing you. I hope I do not disturb you too much. I feel so distant from you. I know that you have said that you don't want to be a master, a guru, but I still feel that you are. You are sitting there and we are so far away from you. And I wonder, can it be changed? That is my only question. 提问者：抱歉，打扰一下。 我不想太干扰您。 我感觉距离你太远了。 我知道你说过，你不想做大师，不想当古鲁， 但我仍然觉得你就是古鲁。 现在您坐在那边，我们与你距离太远了。 我在想是否可以改变一下？ 这是我唯一的问题。
3:24 K: Sitting on a platform doesn't give one authority. Sitting on a platform, a little raised above, is only for convenience, because you can see the speaker and the speaker can see you. And the whole question of authority, guru, we have dealt with that question so very often. And perhaps we should deal with it again. There is a question with regard to gurus a little later on. May we wait till then, sir? 克:我不会因为坐在台上而获得什么权威。 我坐在稍微高出一些的台子上， 只是为了大家方便， 这样你就可以看见讲者，讲者也可以看见你。 整个权威、古鲁的问题， 我们已经讲过，而且是经常讲。 我们可能还会再讨论一次这个。 稍后会有一个关于古鲁的问题。 我们等到那个时候再说好吗，先生？
4:24 1st Question: If two people have a relationship of conflict and pain, can they resolve it or must the relationship end? And to have a good relationship isn't it necessary for both to change? 问题一：如果两人关系当中存在冲突、痛苦， 他们可以解决这些问题还是必须结束这种关系？ 而要想拥有良好的关系， 不是有必要让双方都发生转变吗？
4:50 If two people have a relationship of conflict and pain, can they resolve it or must the relationship end? And to have a good relationship isn't it necessary for both to change? 如果两人关系当中存在冲突、痛苦， 他们可以解决这些问题还是必须结束这种关系？ 而要想拥有良好的关系， 不是有必要让双方都发生转变吗？
5:10 I hope the question is clear. What is the cause in relationship of pain, conflict and all the problems that arise in relationship? What is the root of it? Please, in answering this question we are thinking together, I am not answering it and you just receive it, and accept it or reject it, but together we are enquiring into this question. This is a question that concerns all human beings, whether they are in the East, here, or Europe, America. This is a problem that really concerns most human beings. Apparently two people, man and woman, cannot live together without conflict, without pain, without a sense of inequality, without that feeling that they are not profoundly related to each other. One asks why? There may be multiple causes, sexual, lack of temperament, the opposite feeling of belief, of ambition, there may be many, many causes for this lack of harmony in relationship. But what is really the source, the depth of that source, which brings conflict in each of us? I think that is the important question to ask, to ask, and then not wait for an answer from somebody like the speaker, but having put the question, have the patience to wait, hesitate, let the question itself take seed, flower, move. I don't know if I am conveying that feeling. 我希望大家清楚这个问题了。 在关系当中存在痛苦、冲突， 在关系当中 会产生所有那些问题，其肇因是什么？ 其根源是什么？ 请注意，在回答这个问题的时候，我们是在共同思考， 不是我答，你随便一听， 然后或者同意或者反对， 而是我们共同来探究这个问题。 这是一个与所有人息息相关的问题， 不管是在东方、这里，还是在欧洲、美洲。 这个问题真的和大多数人息息相关。 显然，两个人，男人和女人， 一起生活时，不可能不发生冲突， 不造成痛苦， 不感到不平等， 不感到 彼此间缺乏深刻的联系。 人们会问，这是为什么？ 或许存在很多原因， 性关系不和谐，脾气不好， 对待信仰、梦想的 态度截然相反，等等， 关系当中的这种不和谐， 可能有很多很多原因。 但是，这个给我们每个人 心中造成冲突的 真正深层次的根源是什么呢？ 我想这是我们应该询问的重要问题， 询问，但不等谁—— 比如讲者——来回答，而是提出问题后， 耐心谨慎地等待， 让问题自己播种、开花、发展变化。 不知我是不是正在传达这样一种态度。
8:04 I ask myself, why, if I am married to a woman, or live with a woman, why do I have this basic conflict between us. I can give superficial answers, because she is a Roman Catholic, I am a Protestant, or I am this or that, those are all superficial reasons. But I want to find out what is the deep-rooted or deep source of this conflict between two people. I have put the question, and I am waiting for the question itself to flower, to expose all the intricacies that lie behind the question, because there are a great many intricacies in the question, and what the question brings out. For that I must have a little patience, a little sense of waiting, watching, being aware, so that the question begins to unfold. As it unfolds I begin to see the answer. Not that I want an answer, but the question itself begins to unroll, show me the extraordinary complexity that lies between two people, between two human beings that perhaps like each other, perhaps are attracted to each other. When they are very young they get sexually – etc., and later on as they grow a little older they get bored with each other, and gradually escape from that boredom through another person, divorcing, etc. But the same problem exists with the other. So I have to have patience. Patience, I mean by that word, not allowing time to operate. I don't know if you have gone into the question: patience and impatience. 我问自己， 为什么，假如我和一个女人结婚或一起生活， 我们之间为什么会存在这种根本的冲突。 我可以肤浅地解释， 她是罗马天主教徒，而我是清教徒， 或者，我是这样那样的教徒，这些都是表面原因。 但我想弄清，两人发生冲突，其深固的 或者深层次的原因是什么。 我提出了这个问题， 并等待着问题自己绽放， 揭示出其背后一切纷繁复杂的细节 ——问题当中蕴含着大量错综复杂的细节—— 并呈现因问题而得以显现的一切。 为此，我必须得有点儿耐心， 有点等待、 观察、觉察的意识， 以便让问题开始逐渐明朗。 随着问题的展现，我就开始看到答案。 不是因为我想得到答案， 而是问题自己开始铺展开来， 让我看到横亘在两人之间的 这种异常复杂的情况， 他们或许是喜欢对方， 或许是彼此吸引。 他们年纪轻轻时就有了性关系，等等， 后来，他们长大了一些， 彼此厌倦了， 逐渐地会去逃避这种厌倦感， 比如，换个伴侣、 离婚，等等。 但他和别人相处依然存在这个问题。 所以，我必须要有耐心。 耐心，我用这个词是指 不容许时间运作。 不知你们探究过这个问题没有： 耐心和没有耐心。
11:11 Most of us are rather impatient. We want our questions answered immediately, or escape from it immediately, operate upon it immediately. So we are rather impatient to get on with it. This impatience doesn't give one the depth of understanding of the problem. Whereas if one had patience, which is not of time, because I am patient, I am not wanting to end the problem, I am watching, looking at the problem, let it evolve, grow. So out of that patience, I begin to find out the depth of the answer. Right? Let us do that together now this morning. We are patient, not wanting an immediate answer, and therefore our minds, brains are open to look, are aware of the problem and its complexity. Right? We are trying – no, I don't want to use the word 'trying' – we are penetrating into the problem why two people can never seem to live together without conflict. What is the root of this conflict? What is the depth or the superficiality of this conflict? And what is my relationship with her, or with somebody? Is it superficial? That is, sexual, the attraction, the curiosity, the excitement, which are all superficial – sensory responses are superficial. Right? So, I realise these responses are being superficial, and as long as I try to find an answer superficially, I will never be able to see the depth of the problem. So am I free from the superficial responses, and the problems that superficial responses create, and try to solve those problems superficially. I don't know if you are following. 大部分人都是非常缺乏耐心的。 我们要么希望自己的问题立刻得到答复， 要么就是立刻逃避问题， 总是想马上对问题做些什么。 所以，我们应对问题是相当缺乏耐心的。 要是没有耐心， 我们就不会对问题有深入的理解。 而如果你有耐心——耐心不属于时间， 因为我是耐心的，我不期望结束问题， 我是在观察问题，审视问题， 让它发展、演化。 所以，由于这种耐心， 我开始弄清楚深层的答案。 对吗？今天上午，我们这样来一起弄清楚答案。 我们有耐心，不期望马上得到答案， 因而我们的头脑是开放的，可以看到、 认识到这个问题及其错综复杂之处。 对吗？我们在尽力 ——不，我不想用“尽力”这个词—— 我们这就来深入了解这个问题：为什么两个人 似乎永远无法没有冲突地生活在一起？ 这种冲突的根源是什么？ 这种冲突或深或浅的含意是什么？ 我与她或者与某个人是什么样的关系？ 这种关系是肤浅的吗？ 那就是，性， 爱慕， 猎奇， 寻求刺激， 这些都很肤浅——感官反应是肤浅的。 对吗？ 所以，我认识到这些反应是肤浅的， 只要我还想找到一个表面的答案， 我就永远也不可能看到问题的深层含意。 于是我就摆脱了这些肤浅的反应， 也摆脱了这些肤浅反应所造成的问题， 而不试图寻求从表面上解决这些问题。 不知你们是否理解。
14:41 I have seen that, so I won't find an answer superficially. Therefore I say, what is the root of it? Is it education? Is it being a man I want to dominate the other? I want to possess the other? I am attached so deeply I don't want to let go? And do I see that being tied, attached, will invariably bring about corruption? You follow? Corruption in the sense, I am jealous, I am anxious, I am frightened, all the sequences of attachment one knows very well. Is that the cause of it? Or is the cause much deeper? You follow? First of all, we said superficial, then emotional attachments, emotional and sentimental, romantic dependence. If I discard those, then is there still a deeper issue involved in this? You are getting it? We are moving from the superficial lower and deeper and deeper, so that we can find out for ourselves what is the root of it. I hope you are doing this with me. 看到这些后，我就不会去肤浅地寻找一个答案。 由此，我问道，冲突的根源是什么？ 在于教育吗？ 是因为作为一个男人，我想要支配他人吗？ 我想要占有他人吗？ 我如此强烈地依恋那个人， 以至不想放手，是吗？ 我是否看到束缚、依恋 必然会导致腐败了呢？ 你理解吗？ 腐败的意思是， 我会嫉妒，我会焦虑，我会感到害怕， 依恋带来的所有这些后果，你都非常清楚。 这是冲突的原因吗？ 还是说，要比这深刻得多？你理解吗？ 首先，我们讲到了肤浅， 然后讲了各种情感上的依恋， 多愁善感、 浪漫多情的依赖。 假如我扔掉这些， 那么，这里面还涉及某种更深的问题吗？ 你明白了吗？ 我们正在由浅入深，并不断深入进去， 这样我们可以亲自弄清冲突的根源是什么。 我希望你们正在和我一起探究着。
16:49 Audience: Yes.

K: Right? 		听众：是的。

克：好吗？
16:55 Now how do I find the root of it? How do you find the root of it? Are you wanting an answer, wanting to find the root of it, therefore making a tremendous effort? Or you want to find it so your mind, your brain is quiet, looking. Right? So it is not agitated, it is not the activity of desire, will. It is just watching. Are we doing this together? Just watching to see what is the deep root, or deep cause, the basis of this conflict between human beings. Is it the sense of individual separation? Go into it very carefully, please. Is it individual concept that I am separate from the other, basically. Though biologically we are different, but the sense of deep-rooted individual, separative action, is that the root of it? Or is there still a deeper root, a deeper layer, you understand? I wonder if you are following all this? We are together in this? First, sensory responses, sensual responses, then emotional, romantic, sentimental responses, then attachment, with all its corruption. Or is it something profoundly conditioned, brain that says, I am an individual and she or he is an individual, and we are separate entities, each must fulfil in his own way, and therefore the separation is basic. Is that so? 我该怎样去发现其根源呢？ 你会怎样去发现其根源呢？ 现在你们正想得到一个答案， 想要发现冲突的根源， 因而正在付出巨大的努力，是吗？ 还是说，你想要发现，于是你的头脑是在安安静静地看着。 对吗？ 所以，头脑不是焦虑不安的，这种看不是 出于欲望、意志的行动。 就是在看。 我们现在正在一起这样看吗？ 就是观察，看看这种人与人的冲突， 其深层原因， 其根本原因是什么？ 原因在于这种个体的分离感吗？ 请非常仔细地探究一下。 原因在于这样一种个体观念， 即，从根本上讲，我和别人是分开的， 是吗？ 尽管从生物学角度看，我们是不同的， 但这种深固的“行动是个人的， 与别人无关”的观念， 是冲突的根本原因吗？ 或者，还有个 更深层次的原因，你明白吗？ 不知这些你们都清楚吗？ 我们是在一起探究着吗？ 首先产生的是感觉的反应， 感官的反应， 接着是情绪、情爱、情感方面的反应， 然后就会有依恋， 以及随之而来的腐败。 还是说，这是某种强烈的条件作用， 这颗大脑说，我是个体，他/她也是个体， 我们是分开的实体， 每个人都必须以自己的方式实现自我， 因而，分离是一个基本原则。 是这么回事吗？
20:36 Is it basic, or I have been educated to that? That I am an individual and she, also an individual, must fulfil herself in her own way and I must equally. So we have already started from the very beginning these two separate directions, may be running parallel together but never meeting. Like two railway lines that never meet. And all I am doing is try to meet, try to live harmoniously, struggle, 'Oh darling, you are so good' – you follow? Repeat, repeat, but never meet. Right? 这是个基本原则，还是说，是教育使我这样认为？ 我是一个个体， 而她，也是一个个体， 必须以她自己的方式实现自我， 我同样也得这样。 于是我们从一开始就已经 分道扬镳了， 或者我们并驾齐驱， 却永远不会相遇。 像两条铁轨，永不交汇。 而我所做的一切都是力图遇见你， 力图与你和谐地生活，我为此奋斗， “啊，亲爱的，你这么好啊！”——你明白吗？ 我反反复复地说，却一直没有和你相遇。 对吗？
21:41 So if that is the cause, and apparently it appears to be the cause, the root of it, is that separative existence of an individual a reality? Or it is an illusion, an illusion which I have been nourishing, cherishing, holding on to, without any validity behind it? If it has no validity I must be quite sure, absolutely, irrevocably sure that it is an illusion, and can the brain break away from that illusion, and realise we are all similar, psychologically. You follow? My consciousness is the consciousness of the rest of mankind. Though biologically we differ, psychologically our consciousness is similar in all human beings. If I once realise this, not intellectually but at depth, in my heart, in my blood, in my guts, the feeling, then my relationship to another undergoes a radical change, right? Inevitable! 那么，要是原因就是这个 ——看来，这就是原因， 问题的根源所在—— 那么，所谓分开的个体存在，是真实的情况吗？ 还是说，它是个幻觉，我虽然一直怀有这个幻觉， 紧抓着它不放，其实它背后毫无真实性可言？ 如果它没有真实性，那么我就应当非常彻底地、 义无反顾地确信它就是幻觉， 那么，大脑能否挣脱这个幻觉的束缚， 认识到我们在心理上都是相似的。 你明白吗？ 我的意识就是 其他人类的意识。 尽管我们在生理方面存在不同， 但在心理方面，我们的意识与全人类的意识是相似的。 一旦我认识到这点， 不是在理智上，而是从 内心深处，从骨子里认识到，感受到， 那么，我和别人的关系就会经历一场根本的转变，是吗？ 必然会这样！
23:42 Now the questioner asks: we are in conflict. Must it end? If we battle with each other all day long, as most people are, struggle, conflict, you know, the bitterness, the anger, the hatred, the repulsion. We bear it as long as we can, then comes a moment we have to break. We know the familiar pattern of this. There are more divorces after marriages. And the questioner asks: what is one to do? If I am everlastingly in conflict with my wife, and somehow I can't patch it over, must the relationship end? Or I understand basically the cause of this disruption, of this conflict, which is the sense of separate individualities, and I have seen the illusory nature of it, and therefore I am no longer pursuing the individual line, therefore what takes place between me, who has perceived that and lives it, not verbally maintains it, but actually lives it, then what is my relationship with the person, with the woman who still thinks in terms of the individual? You understand my question? 现在，提问者说： 我们处在冲突当中。 冲突必须结束吗？ 假如我们整天彼此争斗不休， 人们大都如此， 斗争、冲突——你知道——怨恨、 愤怒、仇恨、厌恶。 我们虽然尽可能地忍耐着， 但总有爆发的时候。 我们都熟悉这种模式。 现在离婚越来越多。 而提问者说： 我应该怎么办？ 要是我永远跟妻子发生冲突， 不知怎的，我弥合不了这种关系， 我必须结束这段关系吗？ 还是说，我基本上懂得了造成这种混乱、 冲突的原因， 就在于这种个体是独特的、互不相关的感觉， 而我看到了这种感觉实质是幻觉， 因而我不再以个体的态度看问题， 这样一来，我们之间会发生什么， 我已经认识到这点，并且就是这样生活的， 我不是嘴上说说，而是真正这样生活着， 那么，我和依然从个体角度思考问题的 那个人，那个女人是什么关系？ 你明白我的问题吗？
26:13 It is very interesting, go into it. I see, or she sees – better put it onto her – she sees the foolishness, the absurdity, the illusory nature of the individual, she understands it, she feels it, and I don't, because I am a male, I am more aggressive, more driving and all the rest of that. So what takes place between us? She has comprehended the nature and I have not. She won't quarrel with me – never. She won't enter into that area at all, but I am constantly pushing her, driving her and trying to pull her out of that area. I am creating the conflict, not she, You have understood how the whole thing has moved? Are you following all this?

Q: Yes. 		这个问题非常有趣，探讨一下。 我看到，或者她看到 ——把她放在这个位置更好—— 她看到了这个个体观念的愚蠢、荒谬， 看到它本质上就是幻觉， 她懂得了、感受到了这点，而我还不明白， 因为我是男的，我更加强横， 更爱逼迫人，等等。 那么我们之间会发生什么情况？ 她理解了冲突的本质，而我还没理解。 她不会跟我吵架——绝对不会。 她根本不会采取这种做法， 但我会不断地逼迫她， 驱使她，竭力要把她从她那个状态中拖出来。 是我在制造冲突，而不是她。 你明白整个事态已经有进展了吗？ 这些你们都理解吗？问：理解。
27:39 K: The whole thing has moved. There are no two people quarrelling but only one. See what has taken place. And I, if I am at all sensitive, if I have real feeling for her, I begin to also transform, because she is irrevocably there, you understand? She will not move out of that area. See what happens. If two immovable objects meet, there is conflict. But if one is immovable, the lady, and I am movable I naturally yield to that which is immovable. Right? I wonder if you understand all this. This is very simple. 克：整个事态已经变了。 吵架的不是两个人了，只有一个人在吵。 看看发生了什么情况。 而我，假如我还算是敏感的。 假如我对她还有真情，我就也会开始转变， 因为她处在那种状态，不可改变，你明白吗？ 她不会离开那个状态。 看看会发生什么。 两个物体相遇，如果双方都不让步，就会发生冲突。 但如果女士一方坚定不移， 而我是游移不定的，我自然会向坚定的一方让步。 对吗？不知这些你们都明白吗？ 这非常简单。
28:52 So, the problem then is resolved, if one has real comprehension of relationship without the image, which we went into previously. Then by her very presence, by her very vitality of actuality, she is going to transform me, help. That is the answer. Got it? 所以，然后问题就解决了， 如果你真正理解了不抱形象的关系的话 ——这个我们以前谈过—— 那么，她通过自己的这种存在， 通过自己这种真实性所具有的活力， 就会转化我，帮助我。 这就是答案。明白了吗？
29:31 2nd Question: Would you please go into what you mean by reading the book of one's life at a glance, or with a single look? 问题二：请您详细讲讲 您所说的一眼就读完自己这本生命之书 是什么意思？
29:42 Would you please go into what you mean by reading the book of one's life at a glance, or with a single look? 请您详细讲讲 您所说的一眼就读完自己这本生命之书 是什么意思？
29:56 I think it is fairly obvious, that we human beings are the history of mankind. Right? In us is the totality of all human psychological knowledge. Right? That is fairly obvious, I hope. Must I go into that?

Q: Yes. 		我认为这是很清楚的， 我们人类就是人类的历史。 对吗？ 全人类心理知识的总和都在我们身上。 对吗？ 我认为这是相当清楚的。 需要我详细讲吗？问：是的。
30:27 K: That is, the story of mankind, which is wars, tears, bloodshed, pain, grief, laughter, agony, anxiety, loneliness, sorrow, all that is part of me, I am that. I am the story of all that. The book of history is me, not the kings – part of the kings too, I am all that. Now, can I read that book, which is me, do I have to read it page by page, chapter by chapter, not missing a single line till I come to the end of the book? You understand my question? I am the story of all mankind, that is fairly simple to see that even intellectually. Right? Do I see that intellectually, that I am the story of all mankind: all mankind suffers, has shed tears, laughter, imitation, conformity, every sense of indignity, vulgarity, superficiality, I am all that, otherwise I wouldn't elect the politicians as they are. Right? So I am all that, including the priest, and the gods that thought has invented. I am all that. Now that book is me. Have I to read page by page? Or can I understand that whole book, with one glance, with one single look? You understand the two questions? 克：就是说， 人类的史话， 也就是那些战争、 泪水、流血、痛苦、悲痛、 欢笑、创痛、焦虑、 孤独、伤悲，这些都是我的一部分， 我就是这些。 我就是关于这一切的纪事。 这本历史书就是我，而不是关于那些国王的 ——也包括国王们那部分，我就是这一切。 那么，我能否读读这本书， 这本书就是我， 我必须逐页逐章地读， 一行不漏，一直读到书尾吗？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 我就是人类的史话，明白这个是非常简单的， 哪怕是在认知上明白。 对吗？ 我在理智上看到这点了吗？ 我就是全人类的故事， 所有人都遭受痛苦，都哭过，笑过， 都会模仿、遵从，也都有尊严、 粗俗、肤浅等各种感觉，我就是这一切， 不然，我不会选举现在那些政客。 对吗？ 所以，我就是这一切，其中包括牧师 以及思想虚构出来的那些神。 我就是这一切。 那么，这部书就是我。 我必须逐页去读吗？ 还是说，我能否只扫一眼 就懂得了整个这本书？ 你明白这两个问题吗？
33:25 We are saying it is impossible to read that book, page by page, chapter by chapter. That will take you all your life, because all your life is a period of time. During that time you are adding more and more, or taking away little by little. But you are gathering more and more. So the book can never be read page by page. It can never be read. You understand? If you understand that, which is logical, objective, if you realise that it cannot be read page by page, then you have only one issue: which is to look at it with eyes that comprehend, from the beginning to the end at a glance. What does that imply? What does it imply to look at yourself, which is the story of mankind, storia, mankind, to look at it? You understand? Again this requires patience. To look at it with a patient, silent brain, so that the book itself unfolds rapidly. 我们说的是， 逐页逐章去读是不可能的。 那会耗尽你的一生， 因为你这一辈子就是一段时间。 在此期间，你还在添加更多的内容， 或者一点一点去除一些东西。 但是，你积累的越来越多。 所以，你无法一页页地读这本书。 这样永远也读不完。你明白吗？ 如果你明白了这个道理 ——这个客观的，符合逻辑的道理—— 如果你认识到不可能一页页读完， 那么，对你来说唯一的问题就是： 用一双慧眼把这本书 从头到尾一眼看完。 这意味着什么？ 审视你自己 ——你就是人类的史话，storia， 人类—— 这种审视意味着什么？ 你理解吗？这仍然需要有耐心。 要以耐心、安静的头脑去审视， 这样，这本书自己就会很快地把它讲述出来。
35:26 Now, just a minute. When you have a map of – is it Switzerland? Yes. When you have a map of Switzerland, with all the lakes and the mountains, all that, the beauty of the land, if you have a particular direction from Gstaad to go to Bern, you are only concerned with that route. You don't look at the rest of the map. That is, you have a particular direction, and if you have a particular direction you neglect to look at the rest of the map. Please understand this. But if you have no direction then you look all round. You have understood the thing? The moment you have a motive which gives you a direction, then you are only looking in a particular direction. But if you have no motive and also no direction, then you look at the whole map at a glance. You have understood? Now can you do this, the same, with one's self. Anger, jealousy, brutality, aggression, attachment, all that. That is the whole map of yourself, which requires a quietness of the brain and no direction. Then you see clearly the whole of it. You hear the whole tone of that history, and you have captured it immediately, the wholeness of it. Right? Have you got it? 那么，稍等一下。 你拿着一幅地图 ——这里是瑞士？对。 你拿着一幅瑞士地图， 上面标记了所有的湖泊、山脉等 风景名胜， 假如你就是要从格施塔德去伯尔尼， 那你就会只关注那条路线。 而不会去看地图其它部分。 就是，你抱着某个目标， 如果你抱有某个目标， 你就会忽略地图的其余部分。 请理解这点。 而如果你没有目标，那么你就会环顾四周。 这个你们明白了吗？ 一旦你怀有动机，而动机让你有了目标， 那你就只是在沿着某个特定的方向看。 而如果你不抱动机，也没有目标， 那么你一眼看去，看到的就是整张地图。 你明白了吗？ 现在你能否也这样看看自己。 看看你的愤怒、嫉妒、残暴、强横、依恋等等。 这是关于你自己的完整的地图， 读懂它要求你头脑安静、不抱目的。 这样你就清楚地看到了整个地图。 你就听到了那部历史的全部音调， 并一下子领会了 整个这部历史。 对吗？你明白了吗？
37:54 Shall we go on to the next question? 我们继续下一个问题好吗？
38:05 3rd Question: Some of us including myself, have had experiences of seeing lights, a feeling of oneness with the universe, energy, the awakening of Kundalini, inward clarity. These last sometimes for moments or for hours. Are these not steps towards illumination? 问题三：我们有些人，包括我自己， 曾经有过这样一些经验：看到一些光， 感到跟宇宙、能量融为一体， 感到唤醒了昆达里尼， 内心清明。 这些经验有时持续一会儿，有时持续几个小时。 这些难道不是通向觉悟的阶梯吗？
38:47 God, what a lot of silly people we are. Some of us including myself, have had experiences of seeing lights, a feeling of oneness with the universe, energy, the awakening of Kundalini, inward clarity. These last sometimes for moments or hours. Are these not steps towards illumination? Can we be little bit funny? I wonder if one's liver is all right, when you see lights, flashes and all that. Just a minute. 天哪，我们这群人竟然这么愚蠢！ 我们有些人，包括我自己， 曾经有过这样一些经验：看到一些光， 感到跟宇宙、能量融为一体， 感到唤醒了昆达里尼，内心清明。 这些经验有时持续一会儿，有时持续几个小时。 这些难道不是通向觉悟的阶梯吗？ 我们可以开个小玩笑吗？ 当你看到光，看到闪光等等的时候， 我想知道你的肝儿没问题吧。 等一下。
39:46 You know, some people do have, seriously, certain perceptions. I wouldn't call them experiences. Now, let's examine what experiences are. What is an experience? Either it is sensory experience, sensual experiences or psychological experiences, or purely physical experiences like pain, toothache and so on. We are talking here about psychological experiences. Now, what do we mean by experience? An incident, a happening which you must recognise, name it, and therefore the experience is different from you who are experiencing. I don't know if you follow all this. Therefore it means, if the experiencer is experiencing something he must know what it is. He must be able to recognise it, otherwise it is not an experience. Right? I don't know if you follow all this. If I can't recognise the experience, it doesn't exist. I recognise it because I have already had the symptoms, the knowledge of it. Therefore I say that is an experience. I have seen, by experience as a Hindu, – if I am a Hindu – some deity, because my brain is conditioned to that. If you are a Christian, you have an experience of Jesus or whatever it is. So, as long as there is an experiencer separate from the experience, what you call the new experience is really the old experience manifesting itself in a different form, and you recognise it. And you call that experience. 你知道，有些人确实——在很严肃的时候—— 看到了某些东西。 我不会把这个叫做经验。 咱们调查一下什么是经验吧。 什么是经验？ 或者它是感官经验、 愉悦感官的经验、心理经验， 或纯粹的身体上的经验，像疼痛，牙疼等等。 我们这里谈的是心理经验。 那么，我们说的经验是指什么？ 是一个事件， 是一个你必须识别 并给它命名的事件， 因此这个经验与 正在经验的你是不同的。 这些你都清楚吗？ 因此这意味着 如果经验者在经验什么 他必须知道那是什么。 他必须能够识别出来，否则那就不是经验了。 对吧？不知这些你都清楚吗？ 如果我不能识别这个经验，它就是不存在的。 我认出了它，是因为我已经了解它的各种征兆， 即关于它的知识。 因此我说那是一次经验。 作为印度教徒——如果我是的话—— 我有过看到某些神的经验， 因为我的大脑受到了那种熏陶。 如果你是基督教徒， 你会体验到看见了耶稣，或者不管是什么。 所以，只要经验者 与经验是分开的， 你称之为新的经验的东西其实是过去的经验 在以不同的形式将它自身表现出来， 然后你认出了它。 你管那个叫做经验。
42:28 Now, a mind that is clear, absolutely without the shadow of self, it has no experience, because there is nothing to experience. Illumination is not a state of experience, which is so absurd. Because, sir, truth or that ultimate energy, you can't experience. You can't say, 'Well, I have reached that'. That statement 'I have reached that', is full of vanity and arrogance. A mind, a brain or a mind that is free from arrogance, which is utterly, in its simplicity, humble, in which there is no self whatsoever. Then that eternity might be there. But if you say 'I am experiencing that', then you are, it is like experiencing anger. It is as good as anger. But don't let's call it illumination. 那么，如果头脑是清晰的， 没有一丝自我的阴影， 那么，它就没有任何经验， 因为不存在要去经验的东西。 觉悟不是一种经验的状态， 那是很荒唐的东西。 因为，先生， 真相或者那个终极能量 你是无法经验的。 你不能说：“啊，我达到那个境界了”。 “我达到那个境界了”那句话 充满了虚荣、傲慢。 一颗摆脱了傲慢的头脑， 有着完全的质朴、谦卑的品质， 其中没有丝毫的自我。 然后，那个永恒的事物才可能出现。 而如果你说：“我正在经验那个东西”， 那么你是在……那就像是在经验愤怒。 那种经验和愤怒差不多。 但我们别把它说成是觉悟。
44:10 And there is this new, brought again, from India – I wish they would keep it to themselves – brought from India, about the Kundalini. Probably many of you have heard this, If you haven't, forget it. But if you have, those people who write about it, forgive me, please, I am saying this most respectfully, those who talk about it do not know anything about it. You might say, what right have you to say that? Why do you say that they do not know? Which means you know – right? Naturally, that is the obvious question. Personally, I don't want to enter into this question, because anybody who says, 'I know what it means' do not know. It is much too complex. The whole idea is this: Energy, when it is misused, destroys an energy that can comprehend the total source of energy. You understand? If I misuse my energy in various forms: arrogance, selfish action, competition, aggression, soaked in sorrow and talking endlessly about it, or constantly being occupied with something or other, I am wasting energy, obviously. It's like a motor running all the time in the garage, it soon wears itself out. But the idea of all this is that, this energy, when it is not wasted in any direction, that very human energy which is not the energy created by conflict, or the energy created by thought, that energy apprehends the total energy of universe. That is the idea, about Kundalini and all that kind of stuff. 现在有这个新的说法， 还是来自印度， ——要是他们把那玩意留给他们自己就好了—— 来自印度的关于昆达里尼的说法。 很可能你们很多人都听说过。 没听过就算了。 可是，你要是听说过，那些人写书谈论昆达里尼， 见谅，我是极其恭敬地说这句话的， 那些谈论昆达里尼的人，其实对此一无所知。 你也许会说，你有什么权利这么讲？ 你怎么说他们不懂？ 这么说来你懂——是吧？ 很自然，那是很自然的一个问题。 就个人而言，我不想去讨论这个问题， 因为任何人要是说“我明白它是什么意思” 那他其实并不明白。 这个要讲起来太复杂了。 整个看法是这样的： 能量， 如果被滥用了， 就会把一种可以用来领悟 所有能量起源的能量给破坏掉。 如果我以各种形式 滥用我的能量： 傲慢、自私、竞争攀比、咄咄逼人， 沉浸在悲伤里，没完没了地诉说悲伤， 或者不停地忙这忙那。 显然我就是在浪费能量。 就像是发动机，如果在车库里一直不停地转， 那么它很快就会报废。 关于这一切的看法就是， 这种能量，当它没有在任何方面 被浪费的时候， 人的那个能量， 而非冲突造成的能量， 或者思想造成的能量， 那个能量就会领悟宇宙的全部能量。 那就是关于昆达里尼 和所有那类东西的看法。
47:18 So the questioner says, asks, is this a process of illumination. You can't – if one may point out again, most respectfully – you cannot prepare for illumination. It isn't like cooking a nice dish, you take time, peel the potatoes, etc. And illumination is not something that you come to gradually, process. It is there if you are utterly, totally unselfish, and have a brain that is utterly without a shadow of conflict. 那么，提问者问， 这是不是觉悟的过程。 你无法——容我极其恭敬地再次指出， 你无法为觉悟做准备。 这不是像烹调一道精美的菜肴那样， 你可以花时间，比如削土豆皮什么的。 觉悟不是你逐步达到什么的过程。 如果你完完全全无私无我， 如果你的头脑没有丝毫冲突的阴影，那么那就是觉悟了。
48:27 4th Question: You have invited your audience, listeners to doubt, to question. It becomes necessary to question rightly, so would it be worthwhile to go into the issue of a wrong question and the whole art of questioning? 问题四：你曾经要求听众 去怀疑和质疑。 进行正确的质疑就是必要的了， 所以，你看是否值得讨论一下问错问题的问题， 还有整个质疑的艺术？
48:45 Which we have done, but I'll read it again. You have invited your listeners to doubt, to question. It becomes necessary to question rightly, so would it be worthwhile to go into the issue of a wrong question and the whole art of questioning? 这个我们讨论过，不过我再读一遍吧。 你曾经要求听众去怀疑和质疑。 进行正确的质疑就是必要的了， 所以，你看是否值得讨论一下问错问题的问题， 还有整个质疑的艺术？
49:14 Please, the speaker has not invited you to question, to doubt, to have scepticism. It is part of one's own natural intelligence. It is not the speaker says, 'Let's doubt'. That is meaningless. But if we are not gullible, if we want to question, if we want to find out, if we want to enquire, penetrate, you have to have scepticism, you have to doubt your own experiences, your own standards, your own conclusions, your own prejudices. But we don't. We question, doubt what others are saying. Right? Now, when one is questioning out of one's own innate enquiry, penetration, doubt, then it has importance, then it has vitality, it clears the brain of its prejudices. If I am prejudiced and I hold on to that, I am never questioning it, my brain gradually becomes dull. But if I question my prejudices, my beliefs, my conclusions, my whole concept of religious behaviour, etc., my brain becomes lighter, clearer, active. Naturally. So the speaker is not inviting you to doubt. You have to doubt, that is part of life. It is only the gullible, the people who want to hold on to some fanciful, romantic, sentimental image that dare not doubt. 请注意，讲者并没有要求你去质疑， 去怀疑，和抱怀疑态度。 质疑是人与生俱来的智慧的一部分。 这不是讲者说，“我们来怀疑一下”这种事， 那是毫无意义的。 而如果我们不轻信， 如果我们想要质疑，如果我们想要查明真相， 如果我们想查究、领悟，你就必须抱有怀疑的态度， 你就必须怀疑自己的那些经验， 自己的那些准则， 自己的那些结论， 自己的那些成见。 但我们不是这样。 我们质疑、怀疑的是别人讲的东西。 对吗？ 那么，如果你的质疑是出于自己天生的想要查究、 领悟和怀疑的要求， 那么，质疑就很重要，就有活力， 就会清除头脑的成见。 如果我有成见，并抱着不放， 我就绝不会质疑这个成见，我的大脑逐渐就会变得迟钝。 而假如我质疑我的成见， 我的信仰、结论， 质疑我对于宗教行为的整套观念，等等， 我的头脑就会变得更加轻盈、更加清晰、更加活跃。 这是很自然的。 所以，讲者不是在要求你去怀疑。 你必须怀疑，这是生活的一部分。 只有那些轻信的人， 只有那些想要抓住 一些虚幻、浪漫、感伤的形象不放的人 才不敢怀疑。
51:25 And the art of questioning. You know, there are three arts: the art of listening, the art of seeing, and the art of learning. Right? The art of listening is to listen without interpretation. To listen without translating what is being said to suit your own comfort and desires. To listen not only with the hearing of the ear, but to listen to the word and what lies behind the word, and listen so attentively that you capture the depth of the meaning. The art of seeing is to observe, without the word, without the name, without the form. Which means to observe without any direction, without any motive, to observe so that you capture the whole movement of yourself. The movement of the trees, of the rivers, of the hills – to see. And the art of learning, as we have learnt the art, is now to accumulate knowledge. That is the art of learning. I don't know mathematics but I study, I have a professor who will teach me and gradually I learn mathematics so that I can apply as an engineer, or a technician, to the whole technological world. Right? Can I wait for that? 还有这个质疑的艺术。 你知道，有三种艺术： 听的艺术， 看的艺术 和学习的艺术。 对吗？ 听的艺术 是不加诠释地去听。 听的时候，不诠释人家的话， 好让自己舒舒服服、称心如意。 不仅用耳朵的听力去听， 而且还听话语和话语背后的意思， 你听得如此专心， 以至于你领会到了话语所包含的深意。 看的艺术是观察， 而不诉诸言辞，不加命名，不分门别类。 也就是没有目的、 不抱动机地观察， 从而捕捉到你自己的所有活动， 树木的摇曳、河流的奔涌、山峦的起伏 ——看。 还有学习的艺术， 像我们所学过的这种技巧，就是积累知识。 这就是学习的技巧。 我不懂得数学，但我可以去学。 我跟随一位教授，他教我数学， 于是我逐渐学会了， 从而可以作为工程师，或者技术人员， 在整个技术领域运用数学。 对吗？ 我等它过去好吗？
54:57 The art of learning is to accumulate knowledge about any subject, and specialise in that subject, and act skilfully. That is what we call learning. That is, gather knowledge, information and then act. The other is act, and from that action, learn. Which is the same as the other. I don't know if you are following all this. Right? I gather information in order that I can live, have a livelihood, act there skilfully or not skilfully. Or, the other is to act and from that action learn. Which is, from that action I have accumulated knowledge. They are both similar. They are not separate, they are both similar. But some are emphasizing the other, which is, act first and learn from action. This is being trotted out by some of the – I won't go into it. So both are the same, which is, accumulate knowledge and act. 学习的技巧就是积累某个学科的知识， 专攻那个学科， 并运用自如。 这是我们所说的学习。 就是说，先积累知识，积累信息，然后再行动。 另一做法是先行动， 再根据行动来学习。 这和前者是一回事。 不知这些你们理解吗？ 对吗？ 我积累知识，以便 或者熟练， 或者不熟练地生活、谋生。 或者，另一种方式是先行动，再从行动中学习。 也就是，我从行动中积累了知识。 两者是相似的。 两者不是无关的，它们是相似的。 而有些人则强调 先行动，再从行动中学习。 有些人在反复讲这个——我不想细说了。 所以，二者是一样的， 都是积累知识，再行动。
56:28 Now, is there another form of learning? It is very interesting if you go into it, question it. We are familiar with the old system: accumulate knowledge and act. Is there another learning, – we will use the word learning for the moment, in quotes – is there another 'learning' which is not accumulating? Because see what happens: when you accumulate knowledge and act skilfully, your skill is always limited. Right? Limited according to your knowledge, and knowledge can never be complete, and therefore your action will inevitably be incomplete and therefore cause conflict. Right? That is clear. Now we are asking, is there an action which is not based on knowledge? This is a difficult question, please have patience and find out. Is there another form of action, which is not based on learning, accumulating knowledge? See what action born of knowledge implies. One must be very clear on that. Are you getting tired? Audience: No. 那么，有没有另一种学习方式呢？ 你要是去探究、质疑一下，这就是非常有趣的。 我们熟悉这种过去的方法： 积累知识，再行动。 有没有另一种学习， ——我们暂时使用这个加引号的学习—— 有没有另一种不进行积累的“学习”呢？ 因为看看会发生什么： 如果你先积累知识，再熟练地行动， 那么你的技能就总是局限的。 对吗？ 从知识出发是局限的， 因为知识永远也不会是完整的， 因而你的行动必然是不完整的， 所以会导致冲突。 对吗？这很清楚。 那么我们问的是，有没有一种 不是基于知识的行动？ 这是个难题，请耐心地去弄明白。 有没有另一种行动方式， 不是基于学习和知识积累？ 看看来自知识的行动意味着什么？ 我们必须非常清楚这点。 你们累了吗？听众：不累。
58:20 K: One must be very clear on that. Are they having fun? 克：我们必须非常清楚这点。 他们是在玩吗？
59:33 Let's start again. One must be very clear: the implications of learning, being informed, and from that knowledge, act. That knowledge can never be complete, therefore action can never be complete. And therefore such action must bring about regrets, guilt, the feeling of guilt and conflict. Right? That is clear. Is there another quality of action, which is not based on knowledge, which is based on thought. You understand? An action which is not based on thought, thought being the response of knowledge, experience, memory, stored in the brain. Action of thought is limited, therefore there are regrets, pain, sorrow, etc. Is there an action which is not born of thought? You get the question? Are we meeting the question? 咱们重新开始。 我们必须非常清楚： 这种先学习、 了解， 再根据这种知识行动意味着什么。 这种知识决不会是完整的， 因而，行动也决不会是完整的。 所以， 这样的行动必然会招致懊悔、内疚、 负罪感和矛盾冲突。 对吗？这很清楚。 有没有另一种品质的行动， 这种行动不是建立在基于思想的 知识基础之上的。你理解吗？ 一种不是基于思想的行动， 思想是储存在脑子里的 知识、经验、记忆的反应。 思想的行动是局限的， 因而会出现后悔、痛苦、悲伤，等等反应。 有没有一种并非来自思想的行动？ 你理解这个问题吗？ 我们是在面对这个问题吗？
1:01:09 Let's find out. If you see what knowledge and action imply, and the truth of it not the intellectual concept and acceptance of it, but the truth of it. that action based on thought must inevitably create conflict, guilt, regret, all that. Because thought itself is deeply, irrevocably, limited, because knowledge is limited – about anything. Now, is there an action not born of thought? Probably this is the first time you hear it, therefore your whole attitude will be to resist it. Or you might say, 'Prove it.' We know the other very well but as we don't know this, prove it to us. Right? I am not proving it to you. I am not a conjurer. All the speaker is saying is, watch the two. Watch very clearly the limitations of action born of thought. And question, enquire, penetrate into an action which is not born of thought. For us, you say, I don't know what that means, because I have never even looked at it, considered it. So, somebody comes along and says, let's look at it together. Right? The speaker is that person who says, let's look at it together. 我们来弄清楚。 假如你看到知识和行动的含意，看到了其中的真相， 不是当作理智上的观念，并接受这个观念， 而是看到其中的真相， 即，基于思想的行动不可避免地会造成矛盾冲突、 内疚、懊悔，等等反应。 因为从深层次上讲，思想本身是局限的，这是无法改变的， 这是因为关于任何事情的知识 都是局限的。 那么，有没有不是来自思想的行动？ 你很可能是初次听到这个问题， 所以，你会采取完全排斥的态度。 或者，你可能会说，“证明给我看看。” 我们非常熟悉另一个，既然我们不了解这个， 你给我们证明看看吧。 对吗？ 我不会给你证明的。 我不是魔术师。 讲者所说的一切就是，观察这两者。 清清楚楚地观察一下来自思想的行动所受到的局限。 并去质疑、查究、 深入了解这种不是源于思想的行动。 而你说，对我们来讲，我不知道那是什么意思， 我从未看过、思考过这个问题。 于是，有人过来说，咱们一起看看吧。 对吗？ 那人就是讲者，他说，咱们一起来看看吧。
1:03:31 Is love thought? You understand my question? Have you understood my question? Is love born of thought, born of desire, born of pleasure? The speaker is asking a simple question. If you say love is part of thought, then love is part of hate. Naturally. Can hate and love together exist? And so logically, objectively, perhaps very, very sanely, love has no relationship whatsoever with thought. And thought, as it is not related to love, what is the action of love which has no relationship with thought? Are we meeting each other? 爱是思想吗？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 你理解我的问题了吗？ 爱是产生于思想， 产生于欲望，产生于快乐的东西吗？ 讲者问的是个简单的问题。 你要是说，爱是思想的一部分， 那么，爱就也是仇恨的一部分。 自然如此。 恨和爱能共存吗？ 所以，要有逻辑，要客观，或许还要非常非常理智， 爱和思想没有任何关系。 而思想， 既然它和爱没有关系， 那么，和思想无关的 爱的行动是什么？ 我们沟通上了吗？
1:05:07 A: Yes. 答：是的。
1:05:10 K: Vous etes un peu paralyse? Sir, are we a little bit paralysed by this question? I am afraid we are. If we associate love with thought as we do, then love must inevitably bring conflict, obviously, because we have associated love with a desire, sexual, other forms of desire. And also if we associate pleasure with love, again it is the operation of thought, as we have been into that, then love is totally involved with thought. And as it is involved with thought, it must bring about great travail to human beings. That is simple. Right? 克：Vous etes un peu paralyse? 先生，这个问题有点把我们问呆了，是吗？ 恐怕是这样。 要是我们像现在这样把爱和思想联系起来， 那么，爱必然会带来冲突， 显然如此， 因为我们把爱和某种欲望， 比如性欲或别的欲望，联系在一起了。 还有，假如我们把快乐和爱联系在一起， 那么，正如我们谈过的那样， 这同样是思想的运作， 那样的话，爱就完全与思想搅到一块了。 爱和思想搅到一块后， 必然会给人类造成巨大的痛苦。 这很好理解。对吗？
1:06:24 So is there an action which is not born of thought? Perhaps I won't even use the word 'love' because that might complicate it. We say, the speaker says very clearly, definitely, irrevocably, that there is an action not born of thought. And he will explain this to you very clearly. When you perceive something clearly, and that perception of clarity can only come when the brain is free from all anchorage from all sense of attachment – to belief, persons, ideas and so on – that frees the brain from its conditioning so that it can look afresh. Right? The looking afresh is to have no division between the observer and the observed. We explained that, again, carefully. So, there is an action of perception, in which there is no observer and the observed, and therefore no activity of thought, and action is free from thought. I have explained it very carefully – right? That is, if I can observe without any prejudice, a person, specially in relationship, to observe very clearly, without all the memories one has gathered about her or him, for the last twenty, forty, ten days. To be free of that utterly, a brain that is not collecting hurts, insults and all that, such a brain is free to observe. That observation is the operation of the total brain, because there is no hindrance. Right? It operates as a whole. Then an action born out of that wholeness is without conflict. It is not the action of thought – right? I have explained it, it is up to you. 那么，有没有一种不是来自思想的活动呢？ 我可能甚至都不想用“爱” 这个字眼，因为那可能会把问题复杂化。 我们认为，讲者 非常清楚、非常明确、坚定不移地认为， 有一种并非源于思想的行动， 他会非常清晰地给你讲一下。 有时，你会非常清楚地看到一些东西， 这种清楚的看见只能发生在 大脑摆脱了一切束缚， 摆脱了一切依附感， ——对信仰、对人、对思想等等的依附—— 这就会使头脑摆脱它的条件作用， 从而可以重新去看。 对吗？ 焕然一新地看， 就是在观察者与被观察者之间不存在划分。 这个我们也非常仔细地解释过。 所以，有一种看见， 其中没有观察者，也没有被观察者， 因而，没有思想活动， 并且，行动不为思想左右。 这个我非常详细地解释过了，对吗？ 就是说，我能否没有任何成见地 ——尤其是在关系当中——观察一个人， 非常清楚地去观察， 不带有我过去二十天、四十天或十天里积累的 关于她或他的那些记忆。 要彻底摆脱那些， 头脑就应该不积累伤害、侮辱之类的记忆， 这样一颗头脑就可以自由地去观察。 这种观察是整个大脑的运作， 因为其中没有任何阻碍。 对吗？大脑是作为一个整体运作的。 那么，从这种完整状态中产生的行动 就不会造成冲突。 这不是思想的行动——对吗？ 我解释完了，现在就看你的了。
1:09:45 Number 5 question is: Who are you? 第五个问题：你是谁？
1:10:01 Is that an important question? Or would you say, 'Who am I', not who you are, who am I? And if I tell you who I am, what does it matter. It would be out of curiosity, wouldn't it? It is like reading a menu at the window, you have to go into the restaurant and eat food. But merely standing outside and reading the menu won't satisfy your hunger. So, to tell you who I am is really quite meaningless. First of all, I am nobody. Right? That's all. It is as simple as that, I am nobody. But what is important is who you are, what are you? When they ask who you are, in that question is implied you are somebody very great, therefore I am going to imitate you: the way you walk, the way you talk, the way you brush your teeth or whatever it is. I am going to imitate you, which is part of our pattern, you understand? There is the hero, or the man who is enlightened, or the guru, and you say, 'I am going to copy everything you do', which becomes so absurdly silly, childish to imitate somebody. And are we not the result of a lot of imitations? The religions have said – they don't use the word imitate – but give yourself over, surrender yourself, follow me, I am this, I am that, worship. Right? All this is what you are. In school you imitate. Please, acquiring knowledge is a form of imitation. And of course there is the fashion: short dress, long dress, long hair, short hair, beard, no beard, imitate, imitate, imitate. And also we imitate inwardly, so we all know that. 这个问题重要么？ 或者，你会问，“我是谁”吗？ 不是你是谁，而是我是谁？ 如果我告诉你我是谁，那有什么用呢？ 它只是出于好奇，不是吗？ 就像是在饭店的橱窗前看一份菜单， 你得到里面去吃才行。 光是站在外面 看菜单是不会让你解饿的。 所以，告诉你我是谁确实没有任何意义。 首先，我是无名之辈。 对吧？就这些。 就这么简单，我是无名之辈。 可是，重要的是你是谁， 你是谁？ 他们问你是谁的时候， 其中隐含的意思就是你是个非常伟大的人物， 所以，我要模仿你： 你怎样走路，怎样讲话， 怎样刷牙，或者不管你做什么。 我都要模仿， 这是我们生活模式的一部分，你明白吗？ 或者英雄，或者觉者，或者古鲁在那里， 你说：“我要仿效你做的一切”， 这种做法就显得太荒唐、 太愚蠢、太幼稚了。 我们不就是大量模仿的产物吗？ 各种宗教都讲过——他们不用模仿这个词—— 而是说放弃你自己，臣服，跟从我。 我是这样的，我是那样的，崇拜。对吧？ 所有这些就是你实际的样子。 你在学校里会模仿。 注意，获取知识是模仿的一种形式。 当然，存在流行时尚：短裙、长裙， 长发、短发，留胡须、不留胡须， 模仿，模仿，模仿。 我们在内心里也模仿，所以，我们都知道那种事情。
1:13:07 But to find out who you are, who you are, not who the speaker is, is far more important, and to find out who you are you have to enquire. You are the story of mankind. If you really see that, it gives you tremendous vitality, energy, beauty, love, because it is no longer a small entity, struggling in the corner of the earth. You are part of this whole humanity. It has a tremendous responsibility, vitality, beauty, love. But most of us won't see this, as most of us are concerned with ourselves, with our particular little problem, particular little sorrow and so on. And to step out of that narrow circle seems almost impossible, because we are so conditioned, so programmed, like the computers, that we cannot learn something new. The computer can but we can't. See the tragedy of it. The machine that we have created, the computer, can learn much faster, infinitely more than I can, than the brain can, and the brain which has invented that, that has become an ultra-intelligent machine. Right? Whereas our brain is sluggish, slow, dull, because we have conformed, we have obeyed, we have followed, there is the guru, there is the priest, there is the ritual – you follow? And when you do revolt, as the revolutionaries and the terrorists do, it is still very superficial, changing the pattern of politics, of so-called society, society is merely the relationship between people. And we are talking of a revolution, not physical, but the psychological revolution in which there is no, at the depth, conformity. You may put on trousers because you are in this country, and in India it is different clothes, that is not conformity, that is nothing, childish. But inwardly, not a feeling of conformity. Conformity exists when there is comparison. For a mind to be totally free from comparison, that is, to observe the whole history which is embedded in you. 而弄清楚你是谁， 你是谁， ——不是讲者是谁——则重要多了， 要弄清你是谁，你就必须去调查。 你就是人类的故事。 如果你真的看到了这点， 你就会活力四射、充满能量，就会有美和爱， 因为你不再是一个渺小的存在， 奋斗在地球的一角。 你是这个人类整体的一部分。 这包含着极大的责任感， 包含着热情、美和爱。 而我们大都不愿看到这一点， 因为我们大都只关心我们自己， 只关心我们自己那点儿问题、那点儿悲伤等等。 看来要跳出那个狭小的圈子， 似乎是不可能的， 因为我们受到这样多的影响，这样多的设定，像计算机一样， 以至于我们无法学习新的东西。 计算机可以学习，而我们则不能。 看看这多令人痛心。 我们创造的这种机器，计算机， 比我学习快得多， 它掌握的东西比我、 比大脑多无数倍， 大脑发明的那个机器 已经成了超智能的机器。 对吧？ 而我们的大脑则懒散而又迟钝， 因为我们一直遵从别人、服从别人、追随别人， 有古鲁，有神父， 有仪式——你明白吗？ 而当你反抗的时候， 像那些革命者、那些恐怖分子那样， 那种反抗依然是非常肤浅的， 它只是在改变政治模式和所谓的 社会模式， 社会不过是人与人之间的关系。 而我们讲的不是暴力革命， 而是心理革命， 也就是在内心深处不遵从任何人。 你可能穿的是裤子，因为你住在这个国家， 而在印度，则完全是另一种装束， 那不是遵从，那什么都不算，幼稚。 而是说，在内心里，没有遵从的感觉。 有比较就有遵从。 头脑要想彻底摆脱比较， 就要去观察深植于 你的头脑中的整个历史。
1:17:13 I am afraid this has to be the last question. There are too many of them. 恐怕这个得是最后一个问题了。 问题太多了。
1:17:20 6th Question: Would you please speak further on time, measure and space. 问题六：请您进一步讲讲 时间、衡量和空间的问题好吗？
1:17:35 I hope you aren't tired, are you?

A: No. 		你们不累吧？答：不累。
1:17:38 K: Please, don't be polite. If you are tired, just quietly listen. As most of us are tired, our brains have become exhausted, by the usual repetition, going to the office, seeking pleasure, resisting conflict. Our brains, please realise they are tired brains. If they weren't tired you wouldn't be here. I wouldn't be here either. But we are tired human beings, because we are frightened, there is terror, there is danger in the streets, financial uncertainty, war, atom bomb, we are really extraordinarily exhausted human beings, through drink, drugs, overindulgence in every form. And we are going to talk about something that requires a great deal of penetration, a great deal of attention. And to go into it very deeply, you also have to relax, to be free to look, to penetrate, however much one may be tired. 克：请不要太客气。 你要是累了就安安静静地听。 大部分人都很疲倦， 我们的大脑已经让平时单调的 生活搞得筋疲力尽， 上班、 寻求快乐、 压制内心的矛盾，等等。 请意识到这点，我们的大脑是疲倦的大脑。 要是不疲倦，你们就不会来这里了。 我也不会来这里了。 但是，我们这些人都很累， 因为我们感到害怕， 马路上会发生恐怖事件，很危险， 经济不稳定，还有战争、核弹， 我们这些人确实让酒精、毒品、 各种形式的放纵生活搞得筋疲力尽了。 我们将谈一些 需要大量洞察 和高度注意的问题。 而要想非常深入地进行调查， 你也必须放松下来，自由地去看，去领悟 ——不管你有多疲倦。
1:19:39 Would you please speak further on time, measure, space and thought? 请您再讲讲时间、衡量 空间和思想的问题好吗？
1:19:55 This is important to understand because man has always asked, the serious ones, whether time has a stop, whether man can ever be free from the limited space he lives in, not only physically. The physical space is becoming narrower and narrower, because of overpopulation, cities. We seem to live in flats, drawers that you pull out and pull back, push back. Space, physically, is becoming very small, and perhaps that is one of the reasons, why there is violence in the world because we have no space. That is why big cities like New York, London, Paris, they breed violence, we are all much too close together. This is one of the facts which have been investigated. They have put many rats in a small space, and these rats become totally disorientated, they eat their own children, they kill each other, exactly as we are doing, because they have no space, physical. So this is a question that one must go into very, very seriously if you are interested. 理解这些很重要， 因为人一直在问， 那些严肃的人在问， 时间是否可以停止， 人究竟能否摆脱 他所生活的有限空间 ——不只是外在空间。 人口过剩、城市化等等， 造成外在生活空间日益狭小逼仄。 我们住的公寓，就像抽屉一样，拉出来， 推回去。 生活空间越来越小， 这可能就是现在世界上 存在暴力的一个原因， 因为我们没有空间。 那就是像纽约、伦敦、巴黎等大城市 会滋生暴力的原因， 我们全都挤在一起了。 这是人们研究过的一个事实。 研究人员曾经把许多老鼠关在一个很小的笼子里， 这些老鼠就完全乱了套了， 它们会吃掉自己的幼崽，会自相残杀， 和我们一模一样， 因为他们没有生活空间。 所以，这个问题，必须非常非常认真地 去探究——要是你有兴趣的话。
1:22:07 There are three things: time, measure, space. What is time, what is space, what is measure. We are going to enquire into that. Time, measure, space. 三件事：时间、衡量、空间。 什么是时间， 什么是空间， 什么是衡量。 我们这就来探究一下。 时间、衡量、空间。
1:22:34 And as we said, some of the writers have asked this question, whether time has a stop, psychological time we are talking about, not the chronological time by the watch, you can't stop the sun from setting, rising. But we are talking about time as a movement of becoming of being, or climbing or expanding – time, which is part of evolution, the psychological evolution. The biological evolution has almost come to an end for man, obviously. He is not going to develop a third arm or fourth arm or something or other. So, we are talking about psychological time. Time as hope, as something that has happened yesterday or last year, And that memory of it is time, the repetition of it is time, The endeavour to escape from it is time, to suppress it, to do something about it, all that involves time. And the people ask, not only the writers, the scholars who have written volumes about time, etc. And also the ancient Hindus have asked this question: whether time has a stop, so that a new movement can take place, not imaginary, not fanciful, not romantic and all that kind of stuff, but actually psychological time coming to an end. Right? That is one question. 正如我们讲过的： 一些作家 曾经问过这个问题， 时间能否停下来， 我们说的是心理时间， 不是钟表指示的自然时间， 你是无法阻止日出、日落的。 而我们谈的时间是一种成为什么的运动， 想要是什么， 想要攀登或扩张的运动 ——时间，也就是演变 ——心理嬗变——的一部分。 对人类来说，生物进化进程差不多已经到头了， 显然如此。 人不会在进化出第三条、第四条胳膊， 不会再有这样那样的进化了。 所以，我们谈的是心理时间。 作为希望， 作为昨天或者去年发生的某件事情的时间。 对此的记忆就是时间， 重复这些事情就是时间， 努力逃避这些事情就是时间， 压制它，采取应对行动，等等，这些都涉及到时间。 人们会问，不只写下皇皇巨著的 作家、学者们会问这个问题， 古代印度人也曾经问过这个问题： 时间究竟能否停下， 以便开启一种新的运动， 这不是异想天开，浪漫多情， 等等那一类事情， 而是心理时间真正停止。 对吗？这是一个问题。
1:25:07 The other is: measure. The whole technological world is based on measurement. If you had no measurement there would be no technology. Measurement according to a ruler, or measurement by thought and so on, measurement. This measurement has become necessary, to build an aeroplane, even to have this tent. And this measurement has been handed down, to the Western world through the Greeks. I am not a Greek scholar but you can observe this. The ancient Greeks were concerned with measurement. They were the originators of mathematics, part of mathematics and so on. So, the Western world has inherited measurement. Measurement not only technologically, measurement comparing one painter against another painter, one poet against another poet, one sculptor, Mr Moore, against the other – measurement. And also in ourselves there is measurement: I am not as good as I should be, the better, the more, psychologically as well as physically, more money, more power, more fun, all that. If I have more money, more power, I have more fun. That is part of measurement. And we are always comparing, psychologically. There is the great teacher and I am not. I compare myself and eventually I am going to get where he is. 另一个是：衡量。 整个技术领域都是基于衡量的。 没有衡量，就不会有科技。 依据尺子来衡量， 或用思想来衡量，等等，衡量。 要制造飞机，甚至是搭起这个帐篷， 这种衡量都是非常必要的。 这种衡量是通过希腊人 传给西方人的。 我不是研究希腊的学者，但你可以看到这点。 古希腊人很关心衡量。 他们开创了数学， 数学的一部分，等等。 所以，西方人继承了衡量。 不仅包括技术上的衡量， 还包括将一个画家同另一个画家比较， 将一位诗人跟另一位诗人比较， 将一位雕塑家，像亨利·摩尔，跟其他雕塑家做比较——衡量。 我们自己身上也存在衡量： 我不如我设想的那样好， 想要更好、更加如何， 既在外在上，也在心理上， 更有钱，更有权力，更快乐，等等。 要是我更有钱，更有权，我就会更快乐。 那是衡量的一部分。 而我们一直在进行着心理上的 比较。 那位导师很有名，而我没有名气。 我拿自己去比，并希望最终达到他那个水平。
1:27:28 And also space. Psychologically as well as physically, we have very, very little space. Specially you observe this when you go into crowded towns, cities, and in overpopulated countries like India, enormous crowds. You have no concept of it. And naturally they live in narrow streets, live in small houses, physically. Naturally, there is always a battle going on for space, physical space, 'For God's sake, move over into that corner.' 'Don't crowd me.' And also psychologically, that is in consciousness we have very little space. It is crowded. Right? It is crowded with our knowledge, crowded with our fears, anxieties, despair, depressions, seeking happiness, seeking illumination, seeking the powers of Kundalini – occupied, wanting more, better understanding, greater power. I'll fast, I'll have more energy fasting, physically it is necessary – you follow? – always occupied and therefore there is very little space. If you observe, your consciousness is filled and therefore there is no space. And then realizing no space, you begin to enquire into the space of the universe. Astrophysicists are doing this, that extraordinary world of cosmos, which is essentially order. 'Cosmos' in Greek means order. The scientist whose brain is limited, because of his knowledge, because of his conditioning in his relationship with another, his drink, his desire for more power, more money, more status, more publicity. And that little brain is enquiring into something immeasurable, and translating what they see through telescopes, into mathematical problems. 还有空间问题。 我们在心理上跟外在上一样， 空间都非常非常狭小。 尤其是在印度这样 人口过剩的国家，当你走进 人群密集、拥挤不堪的城镇，你就会观察到这些。 你们没有这种概念。 自然，在外在上，他们只能在狭窄的街道 和低矮的房子里过活。 自然，总会有争夺生活空间的斗争发生， “天哪，到那个角落里呆着。” “不要挤我。” 而在心理， 也就是在意识方面，我们也没有什么空间。 非常拥挤。 对吗？ 意识当中塞满了知识， 塞满了恐惧、焦虑、绝望、沮丧， 以及对幸福、启迪、 昆达里尼能力的追求——被这些东西占据着， 想要得到更多， 比如，更深的理解，更大的能量， 我要斋戒，斋戒会给我更大的能量， 在身体上，这是必要的——你明白吗？—— 内心总是被占据着， 所以，几乎没有空间。 你观察一下，就会看到，自己的意识是被填满了的， 因而是没有空间的。 在认识到缺少空间之后， 你开始探索宇宙空间。 天体物理学家在做这项工作， 这个令人惊叹的宇宙世界， 从根本上讲，就是秩序。 “Cosmos”，在希腊语中是秩序的意思。 科学家的头脑是有限的， 原因在于他的知识， 在于他受到的各方面影响，比如，他和别人的关系， 他喝的酒，他渴望更有权、 更有钱、更有地位、更有名气，等等。 而这颗渺小的头脑 却在探索某种无法衡量的事物， 并将他们通过望远镜所看到的一切 转化为一些数学问题。
1:30:56 I have answered the last question, sir, sorry. 我回答完最后一个问题了，先生，抱歉。
1:31:01 So, if you observe, there is no sense of stopping time, psychologically, There is no ending of measurement. Right? We are always measuring, always looking to the future, better government, better economic position, United Nations will eventually – you follow? The very idea, United Nations, think of the absurdity, tribalism uniting, how can they? Don't... So, knowing all this, we are asking whether time, measurement can have a stop. That is, essentially, is there a stop to thinking? You understand? Because time is thought, time is movement, today, tomorrow, yesterday, time is movement. And time is also chronological, it is movement. Thought is a movement. Right? So thought is the movement of time. Thought is time. And we are asking, is there a stop to time and to thought? Or is man everlastingly condemned to this movement, which is hell? You understand? Hell – forget that word. It is a Christian word. They have also their own particular word in Asia. And we are saying also, measurement. You know, part of meditation, the word 'meditation' also means to measure. In Sanskrit also, 'ma' is to measure. You understand? Meditation is measurement, the word, and the Sanskrit word also means measurement, and we are conditioned to measurement. Measurement is: I am, I shall be, the ideal and the pursuit of the ideal, how near, closely I am approaching the ideal. I am violent and I must not be violent, which is a measurement. So measurement, psychologically, as well as physically, is a movement of time, thought. Right? And space. As our brains, our consciousness is crowded, there is not a spot which is not covered. I don't know if you have noticed it. You may think that there is a space that is not covered, but when you think that is not covered, that very thought is covering it – you understand? Are you following this? When I think there is in me a field, or a state, which is immeasurable, which has immense space, which has no time, when I think about it, it is the product or the invention of thought. Therefore it is part of thinking, part of measurement, therefore the concept of super, super, super ego, is still part of that thought. 所以，你观察一下就会看到， 在心理上停止时间是没有意义的， 衡量是没有止境的。 对吧？ 我们一直在衡量着，一直企望在未来 会有更好的政府、 更有利的经济地位， 联合国最终会……——你明白吗？ 就是联合国这个设想，想想吧，这是多么荒唐， 部落主义联合起来，他们怎能联合？ 别 那么，了解到这些之后， 我们要问，时间、 衡量究竟能否停止。 从本质上讲，也就是思想能否停止？ 你明白吗？ 因为时间是思想，时间是运动， 今天、明天、昨天，时间是运动， 时间也是按其顺序排列的，时间是运动。 思想是一种运动。 对吗？ 所以，思想是时间的运动。 思想就是时间。 我们在问， 时间和思想可不可以停下来？ 还是说，人不得不永远接受这种运动， 也就是地狱？ 你明白吗？ 地狱——忘掉这个词吧。这是基督教词汇。 亚洲人也有他们的专门词汇。 我们还在讲，衡量。 你知道，冥想的一部分， “冥想”这个词也有衡量的意思。 在梵语中，“ma”也是衡量的意思。 你理解吗？ 冥想就是衡量， 这个名词， 这个梵文名词也是衡量的意思， 而我们习惯于进行衡量。 衡量就是：我现在怎样，将来怎样， 理想和对理想的追求， 我距离理想有多近了。 我很暴力，我一定不能暴力， 这就是衡量。 所以，心理上的衡量 与外在的衡量一样都是时间和思想的运动。 对吗？ 还有空间。 我们的大脑，我们的意识拥挤不堪， 没有任何一个点不被占据。 不知你们是否注意过这个现象。 你也许以为有个空间没被占据， 但当你去思考那个没被占据的空间时， 这种思考恰恰是在占据这个空间——你明白吗？ 这个清楚吗？ 当我觉得我身上某个部分或某种状态 是无法衡量的，有着巨大的空间， 而且是没有时间的，但当我去思考时， 它就成了思想的造作或者虚构了。 于是，它就成了思想的一部分，成了衡量的一部分， 所以，这种超我的概念， 依然是思想的一部分。
1:36:04 So this is our problem: whether time, thought can come to an end, which is measurement, and can they have space, infinite space, not the space invented by thought. Is this possible? It is possible only when you see the truth or the falseness of measurement, psychologically, imitating, conforming, all that, when you see the absurdity, the unintelligent way we live, and see where thought, which is time, is necessary to learn a language, and psychologically it has no place. When you see the truth of it, then consciousness, though it is crowded and beginning to dissipate, when you see that, the truth of that, then there is space. It is not what you do to end time, what you do to end measurement, say, 'I must stop measuring', but seeing the truth of it will set the brain free, will bring freedom to the brain, because then you have space that is literally immeasurable. And it is only then that the apprehension or the perception, which is not personal, of that which is everlasting from everlasting. 所以，这就是我们的问题： 时间、思想，也就是衡量， 究竟能否结束，它们能否拥有空间， 拥有无限的空间，而不是由思想虚构的空间。 这可能吗？ 只有当你在心理上 看到了衡量、模仿、遵从 等等的 真相或者谬误之后， 只有当你看到我们这种生活方式的荒谬愚蠢， 看到思想——即时间——在哪些方面， 比如在学习语言上是必要的， 而在心理上是没有位置的，只有这时，才是可能的。 当你看到了其中的真相， 那时，意识， ——尽管它很拥挤——就开始消散了 一旦你看到了那个真相， 那时就会出现空间。 不是你做什么来结束时间， 不是你做什么来结束衡量，不是说，“我必须结束衡量”， 而是看到其中的真相 将会解放头脑， 将会给头脑带来自由， 因为那时候，毫不夸张地说，你就拥有了浩瀚无边的空间。 只有那时， 这种来自永恒的，对于 永恒的领悟 ——而非个人的领悟——才会降临。
1:38:28 I have finished, sir. 我讲完了，先生。