克里希那穆提 - 不带意象地活着

Krishnamurti Subtitles

SA81T4 - 不带意象地活着
第四次公开演讲
瑞士，萨能
1981年7月19日

0:25	Krishnamurti: I hope you are all warm. The Ice Age is coming.	克里希那穆提：我希望大家都很暖和。要到冰河时代了。
1:03	The speaker has talked about meditation, and the things involved in meditation at the end of the talks, because he feels that unless we put the house in order, meditation has very little value. Meditation is really quite important, if one knows or understands the deep meaning of meditation. And he has purposely put it at the end of the talks because order in our lives must be established righteously before we can even think about meditation and that which is eternally sacred.	在这些谈话结束时，讲者谈过冥想，谈过冥想所涉及的问题，他觉得除非我们把房间收拾得整整齐齐，否则，冥想就没有什么价值。如果你了解或者懂得冥想的深刻含义，你会知道，冥想的确非常重要。他有意把冥想放在最后来讲，因为我们必须在生活中建立正确的秩序，这样才能哪怕是思考一下冥想以及那些神圣的、永恒的事物。
2:26	And so we will talk this morning about order, and we have talked about it also during the last three talks. And order is necessary, order in our action, order in our relationship with each other, order in our daily, everyday activity. And to understand the very quality of order, which is totally different from discipline. Discipline, the root of it, is to learn. Not to conform, not to obey, not to imitate, but rather the order that comes through learning. Learning about ourselves, not according to some philosopher, some psychologist, but to discover order for ourselves, Which is free from all sense of compulsion, from all sense of determined effort, or order along a particular direction. And to discover that order which comes very naturally, and therefore in that order there is righteousness, not according to some pattern, but order, not only in the outward world which has become so utterly chaotic, because in ourselves we are not clear, we are confused, uncertain. And so to learn about ourselves, and that learning is part of order. And to learn about oneself, not according to some psychologist, however erudite, however noble, but if you follow another we shall not be able to understand ourselves. And it is necessary to understand ourselves in order to have order.	所以，今天上午我们将谈谈秩序，在前三次谈话过程中，我们也谈到过秩序。秩序是必要的，我们的行动要有秩序，我们彼此的关系要有秩序，我们的日常活动也要有秩序。我们要了解这种与纪律截然不同的秩序的品质。 Discipline这个词（纪律）的词根含义是学习。不是遵从，不是服从，不是模仿，而是通过学习、了解而来的秩序。了解我们自己，而不是依照某个哲学家或心理学家的说法，而是我们亲自去发现秩序，这种探索，没有丝毫的强迫，没有任何决心努力的意思，也不是遵循特定路线的秩序。要发现那种自然而然出现的秩序 ——在这种秩序当中自然就有道义存在，不是依照某种模式，而是说，这种秩序不仅是外在世界的秩序——这世界已混乱不堪，因为我们内心不清明，我们感到困惑，不确定。所以，要了解我们自己，而那种了解就是秩序的一部分。要了解自己，不能依照一些心理学家的说法，无论他多么博学，多么高贵。如果你跟从别人，我们就无法了解自己。要拥有秩序，我们有必要先来理解我们自身。
5:51	We live in disorder, both outwardly, politically, religiously, socially, and also economically, except in the technological world. We live in some kind of chaotic, meaningless existence. To find out what is order we must begin to understand, if we may point out, the nature of our relationship. We live, and our life is a movement in relationship. One cannot possibly live alone, because however one may think one lives alone, you are always related to something or other. Either to the past, or some projected image in the future. So, life is a movement in relationship. And in that relationship there is disorder. And we must together examine closely why we live in our relationship with each other, however intimately or superficially, why we live in such disorder in our daily life.	我们生活在混乱之中，在外在，在政治、宗教、社会还有经济等方面，除了技术领域。我们生活在某种混沌中，这种生活毫无意义。要弄清秩序是什么，我们必须开始 ——如果可以指出的话—— 了解我们关系的本质。我们在生活，而我们的生活是一种关系的运动。你不可能独自一人生活，无论你如何坚持认为自己是独自生活的，其实你一直都在与这样那样的东西产生联系。不是过去的意象就是投射到将来的意象。因此生活是一种关系中的运动。在那个关系中存在着混乱。我们必须一道去仔细调查，在我们彼此的关系中 ——无论多么亲密，多么肤浅的关系—— 为什么我们每天的生活是这样的混乱。
8:02	As we have been pointing out during the past three talks, we are thinking together. The speaker is not pointing out anything or trying to persuade you to think in a particular direction, or putting any kind of persuasive subtle pressure on you. On the contrary, we are together thinking over our problems, human problems, thinking together and discovering what our relationship with each other is. Whether in that relationship there is order, whether in that relationship we can bring about order. And so, to understand the full meaning of relationship with each other, however close, however distant, we must begin to think, we must begin to understand why the brain creates images. I hope we are following each other. Why we have images about ourselves, and images or pictures about others. Why in us, each one has a peculiar image and identifies oneself with that image. Why human beings throughout the world have created an image about themselves. Whether that image is necessary, whether that image gives one a sense of security, whether that image does not bring about separative action, and in relationship, intimate or otherwise, why this image exists, for images separate human beings.	我们在前三次谈话当中指出过，我们是在一起思考。讲者不是在指出什么，不是试图劝说你沿着某个方向思考，也不是在说服你，给你施加无形的压力。相反，我们是在一同思考我们人类的问题，共同思考和发现我们相互之间是怎样的关系，那种关系中是否存在秩序，我们能否给那种关系带来秩序。所以，要想理解相互关系的全部意义 ——无论多么亲密，还是多么疏远的关系—— 我们都必须开始思考，我们都必须开始明白头脑制造形象的原因。我希望我们互相理解了。为什么我们会有关于自己的形象，会有关于他人的形象。为什么我们每个人心中都有个特定的形象并认同那个形象？为什么全世界的人都给自己塑造了一个形象？那个形象究竟是不是必要的？它能给人带来安全感吗？那个形象不会带来导致分裂的行动吗？关系亲密也好，不亲密也好，为什么其中会存在这种形象，因为形象会造成人与人的隔阂。
10:54	Please, we are thinking together. I am not telling you how to think or what to think. The speaker is not pointing out, but together we are investigating into this very complex problem of relationship. If we could look closely at our relationship with our wife, husband, friend, or whatever it is, and look at it very closely, not try to avoid it, not try to brush it aside, but if we could together examine it and find out why human beings throughout the world have this capacity, this extraordinary machinery that creates images, that creates symbols, patterns, and in those patterns, symbols, images, one finds great security. We have to examine that together.	请注意，我们是在一起思考。我不是在告诉你怎样思考或者思考什么。讲者不是在指出什么，我们是在共同调查这个非常复杂的关系问题。如果我们可以仔细地审视我们跟妻子、跟丈夫、跟朋友的关系，或者不管和谁的关系，并非常密切地去观察，不试图逃避，或置之不理，而是说，如果我们可以一同探讨并发现，为什么全世界的人都有这种能力，都有这种奇特的制造形象，制造符号、模式的思想机制，并且在那些模式、符号和形象中找到了巨大的安全感。我们必须一起去调查。
12:34	If you observe – and I hope you don't mind the speaker pointing out to you – if one observes, one has an image about oneself. Either one has an imagination of conceit, arrogance, or the contrary to that. Or one has accumulated a great deal of experience, acquired a great deal of knowledge, which in itself creates the image. Why do we have images about ourselves? Please put that question to yourself and look at it, whether those images do not separate people. If you have an image as a Swiss or a British, or French and so on, do not those images not only distort our observation of humanity, but also do they not separate? And therefore wherever there is separation, division, there must be conflict, as there is conflict going on in the Middle East, the Arab against the Israelite, the Muslim against the Hindu, the Christian against all the rest of the world. This is going on. There is not only national division, economic division, which are all images, concepts, ideas, and the brain clings to these images. Why? Is it because of our education? Is it because of our culture, where the individual is the most important, where the collective society is something totally different from the individual. That is part of our culture, part of our religious training, part of our daily education. And when one has an image about oneself as being a British national, and so on, having that image gives one certain security – it is fairly obvious. That is, having created the image about oneself, and that image becomes permanent, semi-permanent, and behind that image, or in that image one tries to find security, safety, a form of resistance. Right?	如果你去观察 ——希望你不介意讲者给你指出来—— 你就会看到，你有个关于自己的形象。你所想象的自己，要么自命不凡，趾高气扬，要么自惭形愧、垂头丧气。或者，你积累了大量经验，获得了大量知识，这本身就会制造形象。我们为什么会怀有关于自身的形象？请自问一下这个问题，看一看，那些形象会不会造成人与人的隔阂？如果你有一个我是瑞士人、英国人或法国人等等的形象，那些形象不但会使我们对人类的观察发生扭曲，而且还会造成分裂，是不是？因而，在有分隔，有划分的地方，必定就会有冲突，正如现在的中东冲突，阿拉伯人反对以色列人，伊斯兰教徒反对印度教徒，基督教徒反对其他世界的一切。这种冲突正在上演。国家的划分，经济的划分，全都是一些形象、概念和观念，而头脑却紧抓这些形象不放。为什么？原因在于我们的教育吗？在于我们的文化吗？这种推崇个人至上的文化，认为这个社会集体和个体是完全不同的东西。那是我们文化的一部分，是我们受到的宗教熏陶的一部分，是我们平日所受教育的一部分。当你有一个自己是英国人等等的形象时，那会带给你某种安全感 ——这相当容易理解。就是说，在制造了自己的形象之后，那个形象就变成永久或半永久的了，你试图在那个形象当中或背后找到保障，找到安全，找到一种抵抗形式。对吗？
16:59	And when one is related to another, however delicately, however subtly, however physically, biologically, there is a response both psychological as well as sensory based on this image. Again, that is a fact. If one observes, if you are married or living with somebody, in our daily life the image is formed, whether you are acquainted or live with that person for a week or ten years, the image is slowly formed step by step, every reaction is remembered, stored up in the brain, so the image is formed about my wife and the wife about the husband. Right? Are we following this? And the relationship may be physical, sexual, sensory, but actually the relationship is between these two images.	当你和另一个人有关系的时候，无论那是多么精致、微妙的关系，还是肉体关系、生物关系，你都既会在心理上，也会在感官上产生一种基于这个形象的反应。这又是一个事实。你观察一下，就会发现，如果你结了婚，或者与某个人一起生活，你就会在日常生活中建立起形象来。或者你和那人很熟悉，或者你们相处了一周或十年，你都会逐步建立起这个形象。你会记住每一次反应，并储存在脑子里，这样塑造出我妻子的形象，妻子也会塑造出丈夫的印象。对吗？这个我们理解吗？这种关系可能是肉体关系，性关系，感官的关系，但实际上都是两个形象之间的关系。
18:58	The speaker is not saying something extravagant, or exotic or fantastic, but he is merely pointing out or rather together we are learning that these images exist. And these images exist because we can never know another completely. If I am married or have a girlfriend, I can never know my wife completely. I think I know her because after having lived with that person I have accumulated various incidents, various irritations, and all the rest of it which happen in daily life, and she has also gathered those reactions, and those reactions with their images are established in the brain. And those images play an extraordinarily important part in our life. Apparently very few of us are free of any form of image. The freedom from image is real freedom, Because then in that freedom there is no division brought about by images. If I am a Hindu, born in India – which the speaker is, but he is not a Hindu – suppose the speaker is born in India... In India with all the conditioning that goes on: the conditioning of the race, a particular group, with their superstitions, with their religious beliefs, dogmas, rituals, the whole structure of society, he lives with that image, which is his conditioning. And however much he may talk about brotherhood, unity, wholeness, those are merely words, they have no actual daily meaning. But if he frees himself from all that imposition, all that conditioning, all that superstitious nonsense, then he is breaking down the image.	讲者并不是在谈些不切实际、稀奇古怪或异想天开的东西，他只是在指出，更确切地说，我们是在共同了解，这些形象的存在。这些形象之所以存在，是因为我们无法完全了解另一个人。如果我结婚了或者有一个女朋友，我永远也不能完全了解我的妻子。我认为我了解她，因为在与那人一同生活后，我记住了各种事件，各种烦心事，以及诸如此类的日常生活中的事情；她也记住了那些反应，在脑子里建立起那些反应及形象。这些形象在我们生活中扮演了极其重要的角色。显然，我们很少有人不受任何形式的形象束缚。摆脱了形象的自由是真正的自由，因为在那份自由中，没有形象导致的分裂。如果我是个印度教徒，出生于印度， ——讲者就是这样，但他不是印度教徒—— 假设讲者出生于印度在印度，一个人受到那些传统的制约：种族的制约，某个部落以及他们那些迷信、宗教信仰、教义和仪式的制约，整个社会结构的制约，他伴随着那个形象生活，那个形象就是他的制约。无论你怎样讲四海皆兄弟，我们应团结一体，等等，那都不过是句空话，对日常生活没有实际意义。但是如果他将自己从所有那些强加的东西中，从所有那些制约，迷信和胡言乱语中解脱出来，那么，他就打碎了这个形象。
22:49	And also in his relationship, if he is married or lives with somebody, is it possible not to create an image at all? You understand? That is, not to record an incident which may be pleasurable or painful, in that particular relationship, not to record either the insult or the flattery, the encouragement or discouragement. All that is taking place in our daily relationship. Is that possible not to record at all? Are we meeting each other? Because if the brain is constantly recording everything that is happening to it psychologically, then it is never free to be quiet, it can never be tranquil, peaceful. If the machinery is operating all the time it wears itself out, which is obvious. And this is what happens in our relationship with each other, whether that relationship is – as a politician, as a guru, as a disciple – whatever the relationship is, if there is constant recording of everything then the brain slowly begins to wither away, and that is essentially old age.	还有，他有没有可能 ——如果他结婚了或者和某人一起生活—— 在与人的关系中完全不制造形象？你明白吗？就是说，不去记录一个或者快乐或者痛苦的事件，在那种特定的关系中不做记录，不管是侮辱，还是奉承，也不管是鼓励，还是沮丧。这些都是发生在我们日常生活当中的事情。有没有可能完全不做记录？我们彼此沟通上了吗？因为如果头脑不停地记录心理上所发生的每件事情，那么，它就永远也不会自由并安静下来，永远也不可能安宁平和。如果头脑这种机制一直运作，那么它就会把自己累垮，显然如此。这就是在我们彼此关系中所发生的事情 ——不管你是作为一个政客，一个古鲁还是一个弟子，不管是什么样的关系—— 头脑如果不停地记录每件事情，那么它慢慢地就开始干枯，从本质上讲，那就是衰老。
25:15	So we are asking together, I am not putting the question to you, but together we are investigating and we come upon this question: whether it is possible in our relationship, with all its reactions and subtleties, with its sensual responses, whether there is a possibility of not remembering? That is – is it necessary to explain further? Suppose I am married and my wife bullies me, flatters me, encourages me and so on and so on. It is our daily education that is responsible for this remembrance: remembrance of that irritation, remembrance of that encouragement, remembrance of that depression which she or the other person feels, and lives in that depression, therefore it feels separated. This recording is going on all the time. And we are asking psychologically whether it is possible not to record, but only record that which is absolutely necessary.	所以，我们一起询问，不是我给你提出问题，而是我们在一起调查，并遇到了这个问题：我们的关系有着各种反应和微妙之处，有着各种感官反应，在这种关系中，有没有可能不去记忆？就是说 ——需要进一步解释吗？假设我结了婚，我的妻子欺负我，奉承我，鼓励我，等等。正是我们平日所受的教育要对这种记忆行为负责：记住那件烦心事，记住那句鼓励的话，她或者另外一人感到了沮丧，就记下来并呆在那种情绪中，于是这种情绪会让人感到疏离。这种记录一直都在进行着。我们要问，有没有可能在心理上不做记录，而只记录那些绝对必要的事情？
27:38	The brain records because it is necessary in one direction. That is, it must record all the things it may learn mathematically. If I am to be an engineer, I must know, record all the mathematics, the pressures and so on and so on, I must record. If I am to be a physicist, I must record all the previous physicists and what they have said. If I am to learn to drive a car, I must record and so on. But we are asking whether it is necessary, psychologically, inwardly, to record in our relationship at all? Right? This remembrance of things past, is that love? Go on. When I say to my wife, I love you, is that a remembrance of all the things we have been through together? Remembrance – the incidents, the travail, the troubles, the struggles, which are all being recorded, stored in the brain, and when I say I love my wife, is that remembrance actual love? You understand my question?	大脑能做记录，因为从一个角度看，记录是必要的。例如，大脑必须记录它可能学到的数学方面的知识。如果我打算当工程师，我必须了解、记录所有数学、压力等方面的知识，我必须记住。如果我打算当物理学家，我必须记录所有物理学前辈以及他们讲过的东西。如果我要学习开车，我也必须做记录，等等。而我们问，在我们的关系当中，在心理和内在方面，到底有没有记录的必要？对吗？这种对往事的记忆是爱吗？继续。我对妻子说我爱你，那是对我们所有共同经历的回忆吗？记忆 ——关于各种事件、痛苦、麻烦、斗争的记忆，那些东西都记录、储存在头脑里了，而在我说我爱我的妻子的时候，那种记忆是真正的爱吗？你明白我的问题吗？
30:04	So, is it possible to be free and not to record at all? Please don't wait for an answer from the speaker, whether it is possible or not, but let us together find out. That is, it is only possible not to record when there is complete attention. Right, I will show you. I don't know why we want explanations. Why our brains are not swift enough to capture, have an insight into the whole thing immediately. Why we cannot see this thing, the truth of all this, and let that truth operate and therefore cleanse the slate, to have a mind, a brain that is not recording at all psychologically. But as most human beings are rather sluggish, rather like to live in their old patterns, in their particular habit of thought, anything new they reject because it is much better to live with the known rather than with the unknown. In the known there is safety, at least we think there is safety, we think there is security in the known so we keep repeating, walking, struggling within that field of the known. And to discover together an observation without the whole process of the machinery of memory operating.	那么，有没有可能根本不做记录呢？ ——请不要等待讲者给出答案，有没有可能不记录，我们要一起来弄清楚。就是说，只有在全然注意的情况下，才有可能不做记录。好，我会给你解释一下。我不明白为什么我们想要听解释。为什么我们的头脑不够敏捷，不能一下子领会和洞察到整个事情。为什么我们看不到这个东西，看不到这一切的真相，并让真相去运作，从而把过去一笔勾销、从头开始，拥有一颗根本不在心理上做记录的头脑？但是，人大都是非常懒散的，宁愿照老样子生活，守着他们那种思维习惯，拒绝任何新事物，因为跟已知相处要比跟未知相处容易多了。在已知当中有安全，至少我们以为有安全，我们认为在已知中有安全，于是我们不断地在已知领域重复、行走、斗争。要共同发现这样一种观察，其中没有整个这种记忆机制的运作过程。
33:24	Now, you have put that question to me, and we have put the question to you: is it possible in our relationship with each other, intimate or not, is it possible not to create an image about each other? Because that image, the remembrance of things past, which is the image, divides people. It is not only the image, but if I am ambitious, competing, trying to become chief executive or psychologically something or other, and my wife is also doing something else equally in other directions, how can we have a relationship? You understand my question? This is actually what is going on in the modern world: the man and the woman, each is seeking his own particular career, their own ambitions, separate ambitions, greed, envy, success, identification, and perhaps they meet in the bed and they call that relationship. So, observing all this in one's daily life, one inevitably asks, is there a relationship which is not actually based on this?	现在，你给我提出了那个问题，我们问了你这个问题：在我们彼此或者亲密或者不亲密的关系中，有没有可能不制造对方的形象？因为那种形象，那种对于往事的记忆，也就是形象，会使人产生隔阂。它不只是形象，假如我有野心，我争名夺利，我想要当总经理，或者我想在心理上如何如何，而我妻子同样在其它方面野心勃勃，那么我们怎么会有关系呢？你明白我的问题吗？这就是现代世界实际正在发生的事情：男人和女人，各自追求着自己的那个事业，追求他们各自的野心，与别人无关，贪婪、羡妒、成功、认同，或许他们会在床上相遇，而他们把那叫做关系。那么，在观察到日常生活中的这些现象，你不免会问，有没有一种实际上并非基于形象的关系？
35:41	Then one has to enquire very closely and deeply, what is love. Are you waiting for me? This is a very complex question because all of us feel we love something or other, not only the abstract love: love of a nation, love of a people, love of God, love of gardening, love of overeating – we have abused that word so terribly. So we have to find out, basically, what is love. You see, love is not an idea. Love of God is an idea. Love of a symbol is still an idea. When you go to the church and kneel down and pray, you are really worshipping, or praying to something which thought has created. Right? And so, see what happens: thought has created it – actually this is a fact – and you worship that which thought has created, which means you are worshipping in a very subtle form, yourself. I know this is probably a sacrilegious statement but it is a fact. That is what is happening throughout the world. Thought creates the flag, the symbol of a particular country, then you fight for it, you kill each other, we destroy the earth in competition with another nation, and so the flag becomes a symbol of our love. And similarly, there is the religious love, the devotion to a symbol. Again, see what thought does. You create the symbol, thought creates the symbol, with all the attributes of that symbol, romantic, logical, sane, and having created it you love it. You become totally intolerant of any other thing. Again thought having created it, thought which is your own particular education, conditioning, and you worship that, which is you are worshipping yourself. That is how all the gurus exist in the world, all the priests, all the religious structure is based on that. And see the tragedy of it, because we have lived for millions and millions of years, we are still extraordinarily destructive, violent, brutal, cynical human beings.	那么，你就得非常仔细、非常深入地探询，什么是爱？你在等我来回答吗？这是个非常复杂的问题，因为我们都觉得我们在爱着什么，不仅有抽象的爱：爱国家，爱一个人，爱上帝，爱园艺，爱暴饮暴食 ——我们已经把爱这个字给糟蹋了。因而我们必须从根本上搞清楚什么是爱。你看，爱不是观念。对上帝的爱是个观念。对符号的爱仍然是个观念。你在教堂跪拜祷告的时候，你所崇拜或祈求的，其实是某种思想制造的东西。对吗？那么，看看发生了什么：思想制造了符号 ——这是事实—— 而你崇拜那个思想制造的符号，这意味着你是在崇拜一个以非常狡猾的形式出现的你自己。我知道这句话可能是亵渎神明，但这是事实。这是全世界都在发生的事情。思想制造了旗帜，制造了某个国家的符号，然后你就为它打仗，彼此杀戮，我们同另一个国家竞争，破坏这个地球，于是旗帜成了我们爱的一个符号。同样，还有这种宗教的爱，对某种符号的虔敬。看看思想做了些什么。你制造了这个符号，思想制造了这个符号，这个符号有着各种属性，浪漫的、逻辑的、理智的，等等，因为你创造了它，所以你爱它。你完全无法容忍任何其它符号存在。而且，思想创造了这个符号，这个思想就是你自己受到的教育和训练，而你崇拜那个思想制造的东西，你其实就是在崇拜你自己。这就是世界上有那些古鲁存在的原因，那些传教士，所有宗教体系的存在，都是以此为基础的。看看这是多么可悲，我们已经那样生活了数百万年，却仍然极具破坏性，仍然是暴力、残忍的人类，仍然只顾自己，不顾他人。
40:46	And also, when we say, I love another, in that love there is desire, pleasure, projections of various activities of thought. So one has to look into and find out whether love is desire, whether love is pleasure, whether in love there is fear. Because where there is fear, there must be hatred. Please, I am not telling you all this, you know all this. Where there is fear there must be jealousy, anxiety, possessiveness, domination.	还有，我们说我爱另一个人，那种爱中有着欲望、快乐，有着各种思想活动的投射。所以，你必须去调查，并弄清，爱究竟是不是欲望，是不是快乐，在爱中究竟有没有恐惧。因为有恐惧存在，就必定会有仇恨。请注意，我不是在给你讲这些。这些你们都了解。有恐惧，就必定会有嫉妒、焦虑、占有和控制。
42:08	So, to understand the depth of relationship and the beauty of relationship, because there is beauty in relationship. The whole cosmos is a movement in relationship. Cosmos means order. And when one has order in oneself, one has order in our relationship and therefore order in our society. So one must enquire in this relationship, if we find it is absolutely necessary to have order, and therefore out of that order comes love. One must enquire into what is desire. Right? Desire to become something, desire to reach illumination, God, desire for this or that. So this has been one of the problems, perhaps the problem, for human beings. Must I go into all this?	所以，要理解关系的深意，理解关系的美，因为在关系中存在着美。整个宇宙就是关系的运动。 Cosmos（宇宙）是秩序的意思。当你心里有了秩序，你在我们的关系中就有了秩序，因而在我们的社会中就有了秩序。所以，我们必须探询这种关系，如果我们发现拥有秩序是绝对必要的，那么，从那份秩序中，爱就降临了。我们必须去探询什么是欲望。对吗？渴望成为什么，渴望开悟，渴望达到神的境界，渴望这个，渴望那个。于是欲望成了一个问题，或许是成了人类的问题。我需要把这些都讲一遍吗？
44:31	We must ask something else too: what is beauty? We see the snow, the fresh snow on the mountains this morning, clean, a lovely sight if you are not too cold. And the solitary trees standing black against that white. And looking at the world about us, the marvellous machinery, the extraordinary computer with its special beauty, and the beauty of a face, the beauty of a painting, beauty of a poem. We seem to recognise beauty out there in the museums, when you go to a concert and listen to Beethoven, or Mozart, or whatever you listen to, there is great beauty. Always out there, in the hills, in the valleys, in the running waters, and the flight of birds, and the early morning singing of a blackbird. But is there beauty only out there? Or is beauty something that only exists, when the 'me' is not? You understand? When you look at those mountains on a sunny morning, clear against the blue sparkling sky – I am not being romantic – the very majesty of that drives away all the accumulated memories of yourself, for a moment. Haven't you noticed that? There, the outward beauty, the outward magnificence, the majesty and the strength of that mountain wipes away all your problems, everything, for a second, out of you. You have forgotten yourself. Where there is total absence of yourself, beauty is. But we are not free of ourselves. We are terribly selfish people, concerned with ourselves, with our problems, with our agonies, with our sorrows, with our loneliness. And out of that desperate loneliness, we want identification with something or other. Out of that loneliness we cling to somebody, to a belief, to an idea, to a person – especially to a person. And in that dependency, all our problems arise. And where there is dependency psychologically, fear begins. When you are tied to something, corruption begins.	我们还必须问些别的问题：什么是美？今天早上，我们看到山上新下的雪，非常洁净，一派迷人的景象——如果你不太冷的话。树木孤零零立在那里，在白雪映衬下仿佛是黑色的剪影。看看我们周围的世界，那不可思议的机器，那令人惊奇的计算机都有其特有的美，还有，一张面孔的美，一幅画的美，一首诗的美。在博物馆里，我们似乎可以认识到外在的美，你去听音乐会，听贝多芬或莫扎特，或者不论听什么，那里有着巨大的美。但那种美总是外在的，在山上，在谷里，在奔流的水中，在飞鸟的身上，在清晨乌鸫的鸣啭声中。但是，美只是外在的吗？还是说，美是某种只有当“我”不在时才会存在的东西？你明白吗？在一个阳光明媚的早晨，你看到群山在晶莹的蓝天映衬下显得格外清晰， ——我不是在表现浪漫情绪—— 正是那庄严的景象暂时驱散了你自己积累的所有记忆。你注意过这种情况吗？在那里，群山的外在美，外在的壮丽、庄严和力量，在一瞬间就将你的那些问题，将每件事都从你的心中抹去了。你已经忘掉了自己。当你彻底不在的时候，美就在了。但是我们没有摆脱自己的束缚。我们这些人都极其自私，只关心自己，只关心我们的问题，我们的痛苦，我们的伤悲，我们的孤独。在那种孤独绝望中，我们想要认同这样那样的东西。在那种孤独绝望中，我们会去依附某个人，会去固守一个信念，一个想法，会去依附某个人， ——尤其是对人的依赖。在那种依赖当中，我们的问题就都冒出来了。在心理上有依赖时，就开始有了恐惧。当你受到什么东西束缚的时候，你就开始腐败了。
50:19	So one must go into this question of what is desire, because that is the most urgent, vital drive in our life. We are not talking about the desire for a particular thing, but desire itself, not for something. Let's go into it very carefully. Because as one must know, all religions have said, if you want to serve God, subjugate desire, destroy desire, control desire. And all religions have said, substitute for that desire the image thought has created. The image that the Christians have, the Hindus, etc. You substitute an image for the actual. Follow all this. The actual is desire, the burning of it. And one thinks one can overcome that by substituting that for something else. This has been the pattern of all religious thinking. Or, surrender yourself to that, which you think is the master, is the guru, is the symbol, etc. which again is the activity of thought. I don't know if you are following all this. So one has to very carefully understand the whole movement of desire. For obviously, desire is not love, desire isn't compassion. Without love and compassion, meditation becomes utterly meaningless, because love and compassion have their own intelligence, it is not the intelligence of cunning thought.	所以，你必须去探究什么是欲望这个问题，因为欲望是我们生命中最急迫最有活力的强烈渴望。我们谈论的不是对特定东西的欲望，而是欲望本身，不是对什么的欲望。我们来仔仔细细地探究一下。因为你一定知道，所有宗教也都讲过，如果你想侍奉神，就要克服欲望、消灭欲望、控制欲望。所有的宗教都讲过，要用一个思想制造的形象代替那个欲望。比如基督徒、印度教徒的形象，等等。用形象代替那个真实的东西。请理解这些。实际存在的是欲望，是燃烧的欲望。而他们却认为人可以用别的东西来替代欲望，克服欲望。这是所有宗教的思考模式。或者臣服于那个你认为的大师、古鲁、符号等等，那还是思想的活动。不知这些你们都跟上了吗？所以，你必须非常仔细地了解欲望的整个运动。因为，显然，欲望不是爱，欲望也不是慈悲。没有爱和慈悲，冥想就毫无意义，因为爱和慈悲有其自身的智慧，这不是狡猾的思想的那种聪明。
53:30	So let us together, the speaker means together, not the speaker explains and you follow, then you will be merely followers. Whereas if both of us together, step by step, understand the nature of desire, why it has played such extraordinary importance in our lives, how it distorts clarity, how it prevents the extraordinary quality of love, and so on. It is important that we understand and not suppress, not try to control it, not to direct it in a particular direction, which may give you peace and all the rest of it, but rather examine together, please together, the nature and the movement of desire. Shall we go on? You are not tired? It is nice and warm here.	那么，我们一起来讲者说的一起，不是讲者进行解释，你照着去做，那样的话，你们就只是一些追随者而已。然而，如果我们双方一道来循序渐进地了解欲望的本质，它为什么在我们生命中扮演了如此重要的角色，它是如何扭曲了清晰的看见，如何妨碍我们感受到爱的这种非凡品质的，等等。重要的是我们要了解欲望，而不是压抑欲望，不是试图控制欲望，不是在某个方向上引导欲望，以为这或许会带给你安宁，等等诸如此类的东西，而是一起去调查，注意，是一起，调查欲望的本质和欲望的活动。我们可以继续讲吗？你们不累吧？这里很好，很温暖。
55:20	Please bear in mind the speaker is not trying to impress you, guide you, help you – nothing. But together we are walking, perhaps hand in hand, along a very subtle, complex path. And one has to listen to each other. One has to listen to find out the truth about desire. When one understands the truth, the significance, the meaning, the fullness, the truth of desire, then desire has quite a different value or drive in one's life.	请记住，讲者不是要打动你，指引你，帮助你——都不是。而是说，我们在一同行走 ——或许是手挽着手—— 沿着一条迂回曲折、不易辨认的路在走。我们必须相互倾听。必须倾听，才能发现欲望的真相。当你了解了它的真相，它的意义，它的含意，它的丰满，以及它的真相的时候，欲望在生活中就有了一种完全不同的价值或驱动作用。
56:28	And also, one must look at something else too: which is, when you observe desire, are you observing it as an outsider looking at desire, or you are observing desire as it arises? Not desire something separate from you, you are desire. You see the difference? Either I observe desire, which I have when I see something in the window which pleases me, and I have the desire to buy it, and then the object is different from me. The object is different, but desire is me. So there is a perception of desire, without the observer watching desire. Am I making this somewhat clear? No. All right, I will explain.	还有其它一些地方需要审视一下：你观察欲望时，是作为局外人看待欲望，还是说，在欲望升起的同时，你就在观察？不把欲望当作有别于你的东西，你就是欲望。你看到区别了吗？我去观察自己的这种欲望，这种我在商店橱窗里看到自己心仪的东西时，要买下它的欲望，而那时，那个东西和我是不同的。虽然欲望的对象不同，但是欲望就是我。于是，在没有观察者观察欲望的情况下，对欲望有了一种认识。这个我讲清楚些了吗？没有。好的，我会解释一下。
58:08	I can look at a tree. The tree is the word by which I recognise that which is standing in the field. But I also know that the word is not the tree. Right? The word is not the tree. My wife is not the word, but I have made the word my wife. I don't know if you see the subtleties of all this. So I must understand very clearly from the beginning, the word is not the thing. The word desire is not the feeling of it, the extraordinary energy that has, behind that reaction. So I must be very watchful that I am not caught in the word. And also the brain must be active enough to see, that the object may create desire, but there is a desire which is separate from the object. You are following all this? Are we together in this? Are we so aware that the word is not the thing? That desire is not separate from the observer who is watching desire? That the object may create desire, but there is desire independent of the object. And each one has a separate desire, the religion, one's God, the mundane, and so on and so on. So, one must be aware of all this.	我可以看一棵树。树是个名词，我通过这个名词去识别那棵立在田野中的树。但是我也知道树这个词并不是树。对吗？这个名词并不是树。我的妻子也不是那个名词，但我把这个名词当成了我的妻子了。不知你是否看到这些微妙之处。所以，从一开始我就必须非常清楚地懂得，词语不是事物本身。欲望这个词并不是对欲望的感受，不是那个反应背后的令人惊奇的能量。因此，我必须非常警惕，不陷在词语当中。头脑也必须非常活跃，才能够看到观察的对象也许会制造欲望，但有一种欲望和对象是分开的。这些你们跟上了吗？我们是在一道探究着吗？我们很清楚地意识到词语不是那个东西了吗？意识到欲望和那个观察欲望的观察者并不是分开的了吗？意识到对象或许会制造欲望，但也存在着独立于那个对象的欲望了吗？每个人都有各自的欲望，对宗教，对神的欲望也好，普通的欲望也好，如此等等。所以，我们必须意识到这些。
1:01:00	So we are going to find out what is desire, not the object in the window or on the road, or the person I see, but how does desire arise? How does desire flower? Why does this have such extraordinary energy behind it? Please we are together in this, not I explain and you follow, but together we are moving, because this has a great importance in relationship. If we don't understand deeply the nature of desire, we will always be in conflict with each other. I may desire one thing and my wife may desire another, my children may desire something totally different. So we are always at loggerheads with each other. And this battle, this struggle, is called love, relationship.	我们这就来弄清什么是欲望，不是指橱窗里或者路上的东西，也不是我看到的那个人，而是说，欲望是怎样产生的？欲望是如何发展的？为什么在欲望背后会有如此惊人的能量？请注意，我们是在共同探讨，不是我讲你听，而是我们一起前进，因为欲望在关系当中极其重要。如果没有深刻理解欲望的本质，我们就会永远处于相互冲突之中。我可能渴望这个，我的妻子可能渴望别的，而孩子们则可能想要些完全不同的东西。于是我们彼此总是争执不下。而我们把这种争斗称为爱，称为关系。
1:02:51	We are asking, what is the source of desire? How does desire begin?	我们要问：欲望的根源是什么？欲望是如何产生的？
1:03:07	Q: (Inaudible)	问：（听不清）
1:03:11	K: Please, there will be questions and answers after next Sunday. So please be good enough if you don't mind. Then we can write down the question, and I will respond. But not now, if you don't mind. We are asking, what is the source of desire.	克：请注意，下周就是问答会。所以，如果你不介意的话，请忍耐些。到时候，我们可以把问题写下来，我会回答的。但现在不行，要是你不介意的话。我们问的是，欲望的根源是什么。
1:03:51	And we must be very truthful in this, very honest, because it is very, very deceptive, very subtle unless we understand the root of it. For most of us, all of us, sensations are important, sensory responses. Right? The touch, the taste, the smell, the hearing. And for most of us, a particular sensory response is more important than the other responses. If we are artistic, we see something specially. If we are trained as an engineer or this or that, then the sensory responses are different and so on. So we never observe with all the sensory responses totally. We respond, or observe in our responses, about something special, divided. Now, let's find out if it is possible to respond totally with all your senses. See the importance of that. That is, if one responds totally with all your senses, there is the elimination of a centralised observer. I wonder if you are following all this? But when we respond to a particular thing separated, then in that separation begins the division. Find out when you go out of this tent, when you look at that river, the flowing waters, the light on the waters, the swiftness of the waters, find out if you can look at it with all your senses. Don't ask me how, then it becomes mechanical. You understand? But if you say, let me look at it, find out. That is, to educate ourselves in the understanding of the sensory responses which will be total. I must come back to something else – sorry – that is only part of it.	对此我们必须非常诚实，非常坦率，因为欲望非常令人迷惑，也非常不易理解，除非我们知道它的根源是什么。对大多数人，对所有人来说，感觉是重要的感官反应。对吗？触觉、味觉、嗅觉、听觉。大部分人都是某个感官反应比其它感官的反应更受重视。如果我们有艺术天赋，我们看待事物就会很特别。如果我们受过工程师之类的训练，那么各种感官反应也会不同，如此等等。因此我们从未使用所有的感官进行完整地观察。我们是通过对一些特殊的、被分裂的东西的反应，进行回应或观察的。现在，我们来看看有没有可能用你所有的感官做出完整的反应？要看到这样做的重要性。就是说，如果你用所有感官完整地去反应，就会消除那个被摆在中心的观察者。不知这些你们都明白吗？但是当我们对某种分开的东西作出反应时，在那种隔离当中，分裂就开始了。你走出这个帐篷后，看到那条河的时候，看到奔流的河水，河面上闪烁的光芒和湍急的水流的时候，你可以看看自己能否用全部的感官去看。不要问我怎么看，那就很机械了。你明白吗？但如果你说，我来看一看，来弄个明白。那就是在了解感官反应的过程中 ——感官反应应该是完整的—— 进行自我教育。我必须回过来讲些别的 ——抱歉——那只是其中一部分。
1:07:32	We are asking what is the source of desire. As we said: sensory responses. We begin with sensory responses. You see something, the seeing brings about the response. You see a green shirt, or a green dress, the seeing awakens the response. Then the contact takes place, then from that contact, thought creates the image of you in that dress, or you in that car, or you in that house. So watch it, go slowly into this. Sensory responses, the seeing, the hearing, the tasting, sensory responses, then the contact, not only with the eye but touching it, then thought creating the image of you in that shirt, or in that dress, or in that car, and then the desire arises. You follow this? The seeing of a car in the road, nice lines, highly polished, etc., the power behind it. Then I touch it, feel around, go around it, examine the engine. Then thought creating the image, me getting into the car and starting the ignition, putting the pedal down, driving. No, just see it. This is actually what goes on. Right? So desire begins, the source of desire is when thought creates the image. Up to then, there is no desire. There is sensory responses, contact, which is normal, all right, healthy, but then thought creates the image and from that second, desire begins. You follow? I see a beautiful vase, seeing the shape of it, the beauty of it, the Grecian and all the rest, I won't go into it. And touching it, looking at it, the beauty of it, gradually create the image, wanting it – begins.	我们问的是欲望的源头是什么。正如我们所说，是感官反应。我们从感官反应开始。你看见了什么，那个看见会造成反应。你看见一件绿衬衫，或者一件绿连衣裙，那个看见会唤醒反应。然后你会去抚摸衣服，接着，通过接触，思想会制造这种你穿着那件连衣裙的形象，或者你坐在那部汽车里，住进那座房子里的形象。那么，观察一下，慢慢深入这个过程。先是那些反应，看见，听见，尝到，等感官反应，然后是触摸，不只是眼睛看，还用手摸，然后，思想制造出你身穿那件衬衫的形象，或者穿着那件连衣裙，坐在那辆汽车里的形象，然后欲望就升起了。这些你们跟上了吗？你在路上看到一辆汽车，车身是流线型的，锃光瓦亮，等等，马力强劲。然后我去摸摸，围着它感受感受，仔细看看发动机。然后思想制造出我坐上车，启动引擎，踩下油门，驾驶汽车的形象。不，看着就好。这是实际发生的事情。对吗？于是欲望就是开始了，欲望的根源就在思想制造形象的那一刻。在此之前是没有欲望的。存在各种感官反应和触摸，这都是正常合理的，没有问题，但随后思想制造了这个形象，从那一刻起就开始有了欲望。你明白吗？我看见一只好看的花瓶，端详着它的轮廓，欣赏着它的美，那种古希腊的风格，等等，我不想多说了。在摩挲着、端详着花瓶，欣赏它的美的时候，我逐渐地会塑造出形象来，开始想要得到它。
1:11:42	If this is clear, then the question is: is it possible for thought not to create the image? You understand this? This is learning about desire, which in itself is discipline. Learning about it is discipline, not the controlling of desire. I wonder if you understand this? Is this clear? Learning about desire, if you learn about something, it is finished. But whereas if you say I must control desire, then you are totally in a different field altogether. But if you say look, I understand now that when thought creates the image, at that second desire begins. Now, is it possible to see the whole of this movement, the whole of it, not just sections of it when you see the whole of it you will understand that thought will not interfere with its image, but only you see, have sensation – what is wrong with it? You understand? No, you don't.	要是这点清楚了，那么问题就是：思想有没有可能不制造形象？这个你理解吗？这就是在学习了解欲望，学习本身就是纪律。学习欲望就是纪律，控制欲望并不是纪律。这点不知你理解吗？这个清楚了吗？了解欲望，如果你了解了什么，那么这件事就结束了。但如果你说我必须控制欲望，那么你就落入一个完全不同的领域里了。但如果你说，听着，现在我明白了，思想一旦制造出形象来，在那一瞬间，欲望就产生了。那么，有没有可能看到整个这种运动，看到这个整体，而不只是些片段，当你看到整个运动的时候，你就会懂得思想不应该用它的形象进行干涉了，你只是在看着，感觉着，——这有什么问题？你明白吗？没明白。
1:13:33	Because you see, we are all so crazy about desire. We want to fulfil ourselves through desire. But we don't see what havoc desire has created in the world. Desire for individual security, desire for individual attainment, success, power, position, prestige – you follow? We don't feel we are totally responsible for everything we do. And if one understands desire, the nature of it, then what place has desire, or has it any place where there is love? Is love something so extraordinarily outside of human existence that it has really actually no value at all? Or because we have not seen the beauty and the depth and the greatness, sacredness of this word, – not the word, of the actuality of it – that we haven't the energy, time, to study, to educate ourselves, to understand what it is. Because without love and compassion with its intelligence, meditation has very little meaning. And without that perfume, that which is eternal can never be found. And that is why it is important to put our house, the house in which we dwell, not only in the house outwardly but the house of our life, of our being, of our struggles, there, to bring complete order. Finished.	你看，我们对欲望都这样着迷。我们想要通过欲望满足自己。而不去看看欲望给世界带来了多大的祸害。对个人安全的欲望，对个人成就、成功、权力、地位、名望的欲望——你明白吗？我们没有意识到应该对自己的所作所为负完全的责任。如果你懂得了欲望，了解了欲望的本质，那么欲望有什么位置呢？当爱存在时，欲望还有位置吗？爱是人类生活之外的什么东西吗？它是如此的特别，以至于实际上根本没有任何价值吗？还是说，我们没有看到这个词的美和深意，没有看到它的崇高和神圣， ——不是这个字，而是实际的爱—— 还是说，我们没有精力，没有时间去学习，去教育自己，去了解爱是什么？没有爱、慈悲以及蕴藏其间的智慧，冥想就意义甚微。没有那种芬芳，就无法发现那永恒的事物。这就是将我们栖身的房间收拾整齐非常重要的原因，不只是外在的那个房间，还有这个承载我们的生命，承载我们的存在和奋斗的房子，要给这里带来彻底的秩序。结束。