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SA84Q3 - 第三次问答会
瑞士，萨嫩，1984年7月26日



0:12 This is the last meeting here. We have been handed over many, many questions, and some of them we are going to answer this morning. But before we go into that, how can one live in this world, in the modern world, which is becoming more and more complex and dangerous, 这是最后一次问答会了。 你们递交给了我们很多很多的问题， 而今天早上，我们将会来回答其中的一些问题。 但是在我们探究这些问题之前， 我们如何才能够生活在这个世界，这个现代世界中—— 这个世界正在变得越来越复杂和危险，
1:01 how can one live totally honestly? 我们如何能够完全诚实地生活？
1:08 What is honesty? Not honesty as some preconception, to some ideological concept, or to some fanciful, imaginative, romantic, sentimental perception, but rather not to have any illusions. No illusions whatsoever. The word 'illusion' - we looked it up carefully in the dictionary - comes from the word, root word 'ludere', to play. We play with illusions, which have nothing whatsoever to do with our daily life. Perhaps the more imaginative one is, the more romantic and so on, and cannot possibly face this modern world, which is fairly corrupt, and if one can use the word 'immoral', where money and power play an immense part, how can one live now, every day, with total honesty? 什么是诚实？ 不是某种预想的诚实，某种意识形态概念上的诚实， 或者某种幻想的、想象的、浪漫化的、多愁善感的认知， 而是不要有任何的幻想。 没有任何幻想。 ‘幻想（illusion）’这个词 ——我们在词典里仔细查阅了它的意思—— 它来自于这个词，它的词根词语是‘ludere’——玩耍。 我们在和那些幻想玩耍 ——而那些幻想和我们的日常生活没有任何关系。 也许一个人越是富于想象，越是浪漫多情，等等， 他就越无法去面对现在这个世界 ——这个世界已经相当腐败了， 某人是否可以用‘不道德（immoral）’这个词来形容它， 在这个世界上，金钱和权力一手遮天， 一个人如何才能在此刻的生活中，在每天的生活中，保持完全的诚实呢？
3:25 One wonders if each one of us has asked this question: to live totally an honest true life. To go into that a little bit, there are many q questions before you can... what is integrity? Integrity is related to honesty. Integrity is the quality of a brain or one's existence which is whole, holistic, not fragmented. Our lives are fragmented. (There are two young people in front of me, rather serious.) Integrity, not something that one has conceived to be true, conceived, thought out to be true and live according to that. That is a form of a way of living which is fragmented because thought has invented a concept, an ideal, something according to which one lives, which then brings about fragmentation. One conceives something to be true, logical, sane, conceives the idea, and tries to live up to that - right? That naturally brings fragmentation, a break. You have conceived something to be true, imagined, experienced, and one tries to live according to that, which has nothing to do with actual fact. And so there is always this fragment, fragmentation going on in our lives. And that partly brings about dishonesty. The idealist is really quite a dishonest man. Forgive me for saying this. Because he is living according to a preconceived way of life. 'I must live according to that pattern', which is nothing to do with daily life and so there is conflict. That breeds hypocrisy. So is it possible to live in this world with total honesty, integrity, a sense of doing the right inwardly, not externally but first inwardly, to see that one's behaviour, one's conduct, one's way of thinking is completely free of illusions, not dependent on some fanciful concept or on persons and so on. That requires tremendous integrity. So that one never says anything that is not true to yourself. What is true to oneself is rather difficult too because one may say, 'It is my opinion and that is true'. And if one lives according to one's opinions and therefore come into conflict with other people who have also strong opinions, there is a battle going on - right? These are all daily facts. And is it possible to have such clarity, to see things exactly as they are, not according to one's wishes and desires and all the rest of that business, but to have such a clear, logical, sane brain, that is not persuaded by personal desires, motives and dependence? 某人想知道是否我们每一个人都曾经问过这个问题： 那就是去过一种完全诚实真实的生活。 要稍微深入一下这个问题， 首先，我们需要问很多的问题 什么是正直（integrity）？ 正直是和诚实联系在一起的。 正直是那种完整的、整体的、不分裂的头脑或生活 所具有的品质。 我们的生活是支离破碎的。 （在我面前有两个年轻人，他们非常严肃） 正直， 它并不是某种我们设想为正确的东西， 去设想，去认为它是正确的，然后根据它来生活。 这是一种支离破碎的生活方式， 因为思想已经发明了一个概念、一个理想， 然后我们根据它们来生活， 而它们则带来了分裂。 我们设想某个事物是正确的、合乎逻辑的、理智的， 我们设想了那个理念， 然后努力去实践那个理念——对吗？ 而这很自然就带来了支离破碎，带来了分裂。 你设想某个东西是真实的，某种你想象出来的或经历过的东西， 然后你努力依照它来生活， 然而它和事实现状没有任何关系。 因此我们总是有着这种支离破碎， 这种分裂一直在我们的生活中发生进行着。 而这在一定程度上带来了不诚实。 理想主义者其实是非常不诚实的人 ——请原谅我这么说。 因为他是在按照一种预想好的生活方式在生活着。 ‘我必须要按照这样的模式来生活’， 而这和日常生活没有任何关系， 由此便有了冲突。 而这滋生了虚伪。 所以我们是否可能完全诚实、正直地 生活在这个世界中？ 能够感到自己内在做了正确之事，不是外在的，它首先是内在的， 确保自己的行为举止、自己的行动，自己的思维方式 已经完全摆脱掉了幻想， 不再依赖于某个幻想的概念 或者某些人，等等。 而这需要极大的正直。 这样你就永远不会对自己说任何不真实的话了。 那些对你来说真实正确的东西也可能会造成很大的困境。 因为你可能会说， ‘这是我的观点，它是真实正确的’。 而如果你根据自己的观点意见而生活， 从而与其他人产生冲突的话 ——其他人同样也有着很坚定的观点， 那么就会发生战争——对吧？这些都是日常生活中的事实。 那么我们是否可能拥有这样的清明， 去如实地看清事物呢？ 不是根据自己的意愿、 渴望和等等这类东西， 而是拥有一个十分清晰、逻辑、理智的头脑 ——这个头脑不会被个人的欲望、动机和依赖性而说服。
9:38 And it demands - we should also go into very briefly, which we talked about the other day - time. May we go into it a little bit? We are friends now after ten days, no, three weeks, we are friends now so we can talk together quite easily, casually, and with great sense of humour, and a sense of friendship, so that we can both of us look at things together. As we were saying the other day, time is the past, all the memories that one has accumulated, all the experiences and so on, which is the background. That background is operating now, as you sit there. We are sitting there here, and when you listen to the words you translate those words into a certain meaning, and that meaning depends on your past knowledge and so on. So the present contains the past. There is no question about that. That is sane. And also the future, the tomorrow, is contained in the now. Which is the future is part of the past - right? Together? Are we together? The past, modified in the present, proceeds tomorrow, which is the future. So tomorrow is now. I am, one is angry for whatever reasons; if that anger is not understood, put an end to, I will be angry tomorrow again. Or perhaps not tomorrow, next week. So the future contains in the now - right? Is this clear? So the now contains all time. Right? Are we together in this a little bit? The future, the past and the present is now. And the now is both time and thought - right? Thought, which is memory stored up as knowledge and so on, which is the past, knowledge is always the past, and that past passes through the present - incidents, pressures - modifies itself and goes on. So the past is the future and the future is now - right? And can one understand this whole process, this movement? It is a movement, isn't it? From the past, through the present to the future is a constant movement, a cycle. And that cycle is our life. And can one remain - please, we were thinking about it early this morning, looking at it - can one remain in the now, which is all time, without any movement? You understand? Movement is time - right? To go from here there, or to learn a language, it requires time. Any movement in any direction, horizontal, vertical or symmetrical, is time, any movement. And to have this sense of living totally in the now, without any movement, either of thought or of action. You understand all this? To see that time, thought is contained in the now, and that any movement away from it is caught again in time and thought. I don't know if you follow all this. 而它需要——这里我们也应该非常简单地来探讨一下 我们前几天所谈过的东西——那就是时间。 我们可以稍微来探讨下它吗？ 在经过了十天以后——不，是三周以后——我们现在已经是朋友了。 我们现在是朋友了， 所以我们可以一起非常轻松随意地来聊天了， 带着极大的幽默感和友情来聊天， 这样我们双方便可以一起去观察事物了。 就像我们前几天所说的， 时间就是过去， 时间就是我们积累起来的所有的记忆， 所有的经验，等等——也就是那个背景。 当你坐在这里的时候，此刻你的背景也正在运作着。 我们现在正坐在这里， 而当你听了我所说的那些话之后， 你会把这些话语诠释为某种意思， 而那种意思取决于你过去的知识，等等。 所以此刻就包含着过去。 这是毫无疑问。这是合乎理智的。 而未来、明天，也是包含在此刻之中的。 也就是说，那个未来，它是过去的一部分——对吧？ 都明白了吗？我们是否都明白了？ 过去，它在此刻稍微修改了一下， 然后走向了明天——也就是未来。 所以明天就是此刻。 我是愤怒的，某人是愤怒的——不管是由于什么原因而愤怒， 如果这个愤怒没有被加以了解，没有被结束的话， 我明天还是会再次愤怒。 或者也许不是明天，而是下个礼拜。 所以未来就包含在此刻之中——对吧？ 这一点清楚了吗？ 所以，此刻就包含了全部的时间。 对吧？ 我们是否稍微有点理解它了？ 未来、过去和现在就是此刻。 而此刻就是时间和思想 ——对吗？ 思想，它就是作为知识等等而储存起来的记忆， 它就是过去，知识永远都是过去， 而这个过去，它穿越了当下 ——经历了各种事件、压力—— 它修改了自身，然后继续前进。 所以过去就是未来，而未来就是此刻——对吧？ 而我们能否了解这整个过程，这个运动呢？ 它是一种运动，不是吗？ 从过去，经由现在，然后到达未来， 它是一种持续不断的运动，一个循环。 而那个循环就是我们的生活。 而我们能否停留在 ——请注意，我们今天一大早正在一起思考它， 观察它—— 我们能否停留在此刻之中——此刻就是全部的时间—— 而没有任何运动呢？ 你们理解了吗？运动就是时间——对吧？ 从这里到那里去，或者学习一门语言——这也需要时间。 任何方向上的任何运动——不管是横向的、纵向的，还是对称性的运动—— 它都是时间，任何运动都是如此。 而我们要拥有这种完全活在当下 而没有任何运动的感觉 ——不管是思想的运动还是行动。 你们明白所有这些东西吗？ 看到这一点：即时间、思想都是包含在此刻之中的， 因此任何远离当下的运动 都会再次陷入于时间和思想之中。我不知道你们是否明白了这一切。
16:08 So integrity, honesty, and a sense of wholeness is a quality of brain in which there is no movement except the brain has its own rhythm. This is all Greek probably. This is very serious this because we are always acting, going round and round in circles. We never break the circle. And this constantly going round and round not only makes the brain quite dull but also it breeds a mechanical way of life. And a mechanical way of life is not honest, it is repetitive. So to find out what is the deep abiding, unshakeable honesty, which is integrity, a wholeness, is to discover a state of brain in which there is no movement at all. This, of course, is part of meditation, which we have talked about, which we won't go into this morning. 所以正直、诚实， 以及那种整体感，它们是这种头脑所具有的品质 ——这种头脑除了它自身的节奏之外， 其内在没有任何运动。 这一切也许太深奥难懂了。 这是非常重大的事情， 因为我们总是在行动着， 在不停地绕圈子。 我们从来没有去打破那个圈子。 而这种持续不断的循环 不仅使得头脑变得非常迟钝， 它同样滋生了一种机械化的生活方式。 而机械化的生活方式是不诚实的， 它是重复性的。 所以，要发现什么是深刻持久、毫不动摇的诚实 ——也就是正直、完整， 就是要去发现一种 在其中完全没有任何运动的头脑状态。 而这毫无疑问是冥想的一部分 ——这个我们已经谈过了，所以今天早上就不深入它了。
18:24 And that non-movement has its own action in life, because to us action is doing something, achieving something, fulfilling something, in something, which is a movement from the centre to the periphery. I don't know if you follow all this. And that is what we are used to. And where there is no movement there is a wholeness, and from that wholeness there is action which can never bring about conflict. Right? I don't know if you understand all this. I wish you would. Not that I am helping you, which would be terrible, but if we could work together, see this thing, it will radically bring about fundamental change. For the brain has become so conditioned, so small, it has lost its infinite capacity because the brain has infinite capacity. Look what the technological world are doing, what extraordinary capacity has gone into it - computers, submarines, aeroplanes - you know, extraordinary things they are doing. And as the brain has that tremendous capacity in one direction, the brain is not exercising itself in another direction, which is inwardly. You understand? And when both externally and inwardly, both of them operating together - there is something tremendous. 而那种‘无运动’会在生活中有其自身的运动， 因为对我们而言，行动就是去做点什么， 去实现某个目标， 去完成某件事情，去达到某个事物， 这是一种从中心到外围的运动。 我不知道你们是否明白了这一切。 而我们已习惯于如此。 当没有了运动时， 就会有完整， 而从那种完整之中，就会产生行动， 那种行动永远不会带来冲突。对吗？ 我不知道你是否明白了所有这些。 我希望你明白了。 并不是说我在帮助你们 ——那样的话就太可怕了， 而是，我们是否可以一起工作，去看到这个东西， 它将会从根本上带来一次彻底的改变。 因为头脑已经变得如此局限， 如此的狭隘渺小， 它已经失去了它无限的能力， 因为头脑具有无限的能力。 看看科技世界正在做的那些事情吧， 头脑在其中展现了多么非凡的能力 ——电脑、潜水艇、飞机—— 你知道的，那些人们正在做的非凡惊人的事情。 头脑在这一方向上具有无比强大的能力， 然而头脑并没有将自己的能力运用在另一个方向上 ——也就是内在世界中。你明白了吗？ 而当外在和内在， 这两者共同运作时——那么就会有惊人的事情发生了。
21:14 Let's go on. 我们继续来回答问题。
21:24 How can one come to this tent without a motive, a desire to come here, to listen to you, I must have a motive to come here. How does one live without motives? 如果没有一个动机、一种想要来这里听你演讲的欲望， 我又怎么可能会来到这个帐篷呢？ 我必然会有一个来这里的动机。 那么我们要如何才能没有动机地生活呢？
21:47 Why do we want to be without motives? Who told us that we mustn't have motives? If you have heard the speaker say, motives are very destructive, then you are merely repeating what he has said. But if we could together find out what is motive, what is the significance of motives, why we have motives, not say we mustn't have it. But if you discover its meaning, then we can have them or not have them. But if you say that the speaker has said one mustn't have motives, and therefore how am I to live without motives, that is a wrong question altogether. 为什么我们想要没有动机呢？ 谁告诉我们说，我们必须不能有动机了？ 如果你曾经听演讲者说过动机是极具破坏性的， 那么你就仅仅是在重复他说过的东西罢了。 但如果我们可以一起来发现下什么是动机？ 动机的意义是什么？ 为什么我们会有动机？ 不要说我们必须没有动机。 而是，你要去发现它的含义， 然后我们就可以拥有动机，或者没有动机了。 但如果你说： 这位演讲者曾经说过我们必须不能有动机， 所以我要如何才能没有动机地生活呢？ 那么这就完全是一个错误的问题了。
23:06 So let's find out together what is a motive, why we have motives. Why? We are not saying we must not have them: we are saying why do we have them? The meaning of that word 'motive' means motion, to move. That is to make us move. One comes to this tent with a motive, obviously. That is, the motive is to listen to somebody. And so you come. But you have never questioned what is your motive, why you have that motive, why you have that desire. And if you are not clear about desire and motive, then you have to enquire what is my intention in coming here. Either to be helped - we all want to be helped, it is all our pain, anxiety, misery, all the terrible things we live with. And unless we go into it rather deeply, together, I am not... together, then you will have all the time motives. A motive is a direction - right? I have a motive to come here, my motive is to... for various reasons. Which is what? I have already set the brain... the brain has set a direction - right? To understand this man, or to say, 'Oh, he is a stupid man, he doesn't know what he is talking about'. To criticise, to accept, to obey, to contradict - all that is occupying your mind, the brain, therefore you are not listening. Right? Listening is an art, as we talked about it the other day. To listen to somebody with all your being, not to interpret what he says. But if you listen, that is the greatest miracle. Whereas if you have a motive, you can't listen - right? Simple as that. 所以让我们来一起来搞清楚什么是动机？ 为什么我们会有动机？ 我们在问为什么？我们并没有说我们必须不能有动机： 我们在说的是，为什么我们会有动机？ ‘动机’这个词的意思，它意味着运动，去行动。 也就是让我们去行动。 我们都是带着一个动机而来到这个帐篷的，这是显而易见的。 也就是说，你的动机是想要聆听某人讲话。 于是你过来了。 但是你从来没有问过：你的动机是什么？ 为什么你会有那个动机？ 为什么你会有那个欲望？ 要是你并不清楚自己的欲望和动机， 那么你就必须问一下：我来到这里的目的是什么？ 要么是寻求帮助——我们都想要获得帮助， 因为我们的生活中充满了痛苦、焦虑、不幸、 所有那些可怕之事。 而除非我们非常深入地探究动机 ——是一起探究，不是我 是我们一起来—— 否则你将一直都会有动机。 动机就是一个方向——对吧？ 我有了一个动机，然后来到了这里， 我的动机就是……出于各种各样的原因。 那么这是怎么回事呢？我已经为头脑设定了 头脑已经设定好了一个方向——对吗？ 那就是要去理解这个人的话，或者说‘噢，他真是个蠢蛋， 他并不知道自己在讲些什么’。 你会去批判，去接受，去听从，或者去反驳 ——所有这些占据了你的头脑，你的大脑， 因此你并没有在聆听。 不是吗？ 聆听是一种艺术——就如我们前几天所讲过的。 用你全部的存在去聆听对方， 而不要去解释他所说的东西。 如果你能聆听，这将会是最伟大的奇迹。 然而，如果你有了一个动机，那你就无法去聆听了——对吗？ 就是这么简单。
26:37 And if one has a desire, which is part of the motive, why are we slave to desire? You see, we don't enquire. We accept I have a desire to come here. We don't say, 'Why have I desire? What is desire?' - you understand? Drive, push, enquire, doubt. What is desire? We talked about it the other day. We will go into it briefly. 如果某人有了一个欲望——欲望是动机的一部分， 那么为什么我们会成为欲望的奴隶呢？ 你瞧，我们并没有去询问它。 我们接受了这一点：我有一种想要来这里的欲望。 我们不会问，‘为什么我会有欲望？欲望是什么？’——你明白了吗？ 那种冲动，那种驱动力，去探询它，去质疑它。 欲望是什么？ 我们前几天讨论过它。让我们简单地来探究一下它。
27:21 Desire is born out of sensation. Right? I want to come to this tent because I will meet my friends, I haven't seen them for a year. It is a good opportunity for me to meet them, and I would also listen to K and also mountains, scenery, I will have a good time. And the talks will be thrown in! That is part of our desire. Desire is, is it not... no, I won't tell you. What is desire? Not that we are saying that we shouldn't have desire, or suppress desire, or encourage desire, desire to fulfil, desire to become something, outwardly and inwardly. So desire, what is desire? To go into that one must ask: what is sensation? Right? How does sensation arise? Right? Through seeing something - a beautiful chalet, nice bathrooms and all the rest of it - and a lovely view, the view, the chalet brings... seeing it brings a sensation - right? That's natural. And also then thought says, 'I wish I owned that chalet'- right? Which is what? Thought giving shape to sensation. Thought giving an image of yourself in that house. Clear? Right? At that moment when thought brings the image of you in that house, at that second desire is born. Right? Clear? Are we... - right? So desire is given shape... no, sensation, thought gives sensation to desire. Thought creating the image, you in the car, you owning that picture, or seeing a beautiful man, woman and so on, then thought creates the image out of that sensation, at that second desire moves, is born. This is quite simple if you see this. It doesn't require tremendous brains. 欲望源自于感官感觉。 对吧？ 我想要来这个帐篷， 因为我可以在这里遇见我的朋友们，我已经有一年没见过他们了。 对我来说，这是一个见他们的好机会， 而我也可以听听克（注：即克里希那穆提）的演讲， 看看这里的群山和美景，我将会度过一段美好的时光。 然后那些演讲就扔在一边了！ 这是我们一部分的欲望。 欲望就是，它是不是 不，我不会来告诉你们。 什么是欲望？ 我们并没有在说我们不应该有欲望， 也没有说要压抑欲望或者鼓励欲望， 渴望实现自己， 渴望变成某种样子——外在上或者内在上。 所以，欲望，什么是欲望？ 要探讨这个问题，我们就必须问：什么是感官感觉？ 对吧？ 感官感觉是如何产生的？ 对吗？ 你看到了某些事物——一间美丽的小木屋， 它有着漂亮的浴室，等等那些东西， 它周围有着优美的景色， 那些景色、那个小屋就带来了 当你看见它，这便引发了一种感官感觉——对吧？ 这是很自然的。 于是思想说，‘我希望我能拥有这间小木屋’——对吧？ 那么这是什么呢？ 思想将感官感觉具体形象化了。 思想创造出了一幅‘你在那个房子里’的画面。 清楚了吗？对吧？ 在那一刻，当思想带来了那个‘你在房子里’的画面时， 就在那一刻，欲望便产生了。对吧？清楚了吗？ 我们是否……——对吧？ 所以欲望把它具体形象化了 不，感官感觉，思想赋予了欲望某种感官感觉。 思想创造出了那个画面， 你在车子里，你拥有那幅画， 或者看见了一个英俊的男人、美丽的女人，等等， 然后思想经由那种感官感觉而创造出了一个画面， 在那一刻，欲望便开始活动了，欲望产生了。 如果你看到了这一点，这是相当简单的。 明白它并不需要什么很惊人的头脑。
31:15 And then the question is: can sensation and thought with its image of sensation be kept apart for a while? You understand? Not immediately take shape. You have understood? 于是这个问题就变成了： 感官感觉与思想和它创造的感觉的画面 能否暂时分开？你明白吗？ 不要立即就把感觉具体形象化。 你们理解了吗？
31:45 There is a chalet the other day I saw, one saw, at Gstaad, very nice, beautiful, oval, modernised inside and everything as it should be. You looked at it. You live in a flat in one of the big cities and you say, 'My God, I wish I had that chalet', I am not wishing personally, but one wishes. And desire then works to achieve that chalet, buy that chalet, or becomes envious, you know all the process that goes on - right? Now the seeing that chalet is a sensation - right? Seeing the good taps, the bath tub, the showers, the dining room, you know, the whole modern kitchen, and you don't have to wash dishes, you put it - you know, all that goes on. Then thought comes and says, 'I wish I could live there'. 'Or rent it out, I can get a lot more money, specially in the winter!' All that is instantaneous - you understand? There is no interval between sensation and thought giving shape to that sensation - right? Now is it possible to keep them apart for a while? You understand? That requires great attention - to see sensation and thought immediately taking, giving a shape to it. And to watch thought, the quickness of thought, and to slow down that thought. You understand? So that the slowing down and the sensation, if one watches it carefully, desire has it place - right? Well, I have gone into it. 前几天我在格斯塔德（瑞士滑雪胜地）——某人在格斯塔德——看到了一间小木屋， 这间小木屋非常漂亮、美丽，椭圆形设计，内部设施非常现代化， 每个方面都很完美。 你看到了它。 你生活在一座大城市的公寓里， 你说，‘我的天哪，我真希望我能拥有那个小木屋’， 我个人并不想要它，但有人会希望拥有它。 然后我们会渴望努力去获得那个小木屋，去买下那个小木屋， 或者变得嫉妒， 你们都知道所有那些会发生的事情——对吧？ 你瞧，看到那个小木屋就是一种感官感觉——对吗？ 你看到了那些精美的水龙头，那个浴盆、那个淋浴房、 餐厅、你知道的，整个现代化的厨房， 而且你还不需要洗碗， 你只需要把碗放在……——你知道的，所有这些会发生的事情。 然后思想出现了，它说，‘我希望我可以生活在那里’。 ‘或者把它租出去， 我可以赚一大笔钱，尤其是在冬天的时候！’ 所有这些都是瞬间发生的——你明白了吗？ 在感官感觉和思想让感觉具体化之间 并没有间隔——对吗？ 那么，是否可能暂时将这两者分开呢？ 你明白了吗？ 这需要你高度警惕注意 ——去看到那种感官感觉， 然后思想立即出现，然后将它具体形象化了。 去观察思想，观察思想的敏捷迅速， 然后将那种思想慢下来。你们理解了吗？ 由此那种减缓和感官感觉， 如果你仔细小心地观察它的话， 欲望会有它自身的位置——对吧？啊，这个我已经说过了。
34:25 Now we have motives. Motives to get rich, motives to be happy, motives to fulfil, desire to have one's roots, to identify oneself with something. This is the everyday business of one's life. And the motive is always changing. Therefore motive gives shape to our life - right? Desire. Desire, motive and so on. So the past - see it - so the past is giving shape to our life - right? The motive is the past. You understand? So the past, which is the motive, which is giving a direction, is giving the mould of our life. Right? Therefore we are the past. Clear? Of course. The past is memory - right? Which is tradition, all the rest of it. So we are the past. We are memories. A whole series of memories, a bundle of memories, and that is the self, the ego, conscious and the other thing is unconscious. There is no unconscious, there is only total consciousness, not breaking it up, as unconscious and conscious. I won't go into that. 所以，我们有着那些动机。 想要变富有的动机，想要幸福的动机， 想要实现自我的动机，渴望让自己扎根于某处， 把自己认同于某个东西。 这就是我们日常生活中的内容。 而那个动机总是在变化着。 因此动机塑造了我们的生活——不是吗？ 那些欲望。欲望、动机、等等。 所以过去——请看到这一点—— 所以过去在塑造着我们的生活——对吧？ 动机就是过去。 你理解了吗？ 所以过去——也就是动机——它在指引着方向 它给予了我们生活的模式。 对吧？因此我们就是过去。 清楚了吗？这是显而易见的。 过去就是记忆——对吧？ 也就是传统，等等这类东西。 所以我们就是过去。我们就是记忆。 那整个一连串的记忆，一大堆的记忆， 而这就是‘我’，就是自我， 意识，以及另一个叫做‘潜意识’的东西。 其实并没有什么‘潜意识’，而只有那个整体的意识， 不要去分裂它，把它划分为潜意识和意识。我就不深入下去了。
36:45 So to break this cycle is to understand time - you understand? - which we went into. But as we have motives, which has almost become normal in our life, how can one live without a motive? And we have accepted motives. We never question our motives, or invent new motives, or justify one's own motives. You understand? But we never say go into this whole question of desire, motive and fulfilment - right? So that brings us to the point, can one listen so completely to another, not interpret what the other fellow is saying, or the woman, but to listen so completely, not only hearing with the ear, but also hearing with the inner ear, as it were, so that you are giving total attention. Where there is attention you don't have to have motive - right? 所以，打破这个循环就是要去了解时间 ——你明白了吗？——我们已经探讨过时间了。 但由于我们有着动机 ——动机几乎已经成了我们生活中很正常的事情， 那么我们要如何才能没有动机地生活呢？ 我们已经接受了动机。 我们从来没有去质疑我们的动机， 我们要么去发明新的动机， 要么就是合理化自己的动机。你们明白了吗？ 但我们从来没有说去探究这整个关于 欲望、动机和满足的问题——不是吗？ 所以这就引出了一个问题： 我们能否如此完全地去聆听另一个人？ 不是去诠释另一个男人或女人所说的东西， 而是如此完全投入地去聆听， 不仅仅是用耳朵去听， 同样也用……就好像是用内在的耳朵去聆听， 这样你就会全神贯注。 当有了全神贯注，你就不需要有什么动机了 ——对吗？
38:41 To begin with, most of us must consciously be attentive, but does this attention become a constant spontaneous state of action? 在开始的时候，我们大多数人都必须有意识地保持警觉注意， 那么这种警觉注意 会不会变成一种持续不断自发的行动状态呢？
38:56 There is a desire there, motive. You understand? You see this? How can I maintain this attention constantly? Continuously. That means you have already a motive - right? So let's enquire: what is attention? 这里面就有一种欲望和动机了。 你理解了吗？你看到这一点了吗？ 我要如何才能一直维持这种警觉注意？持续不断地保持它。 那意味着你已经有了一个动机 ——对吧？ 所以让我们来探询一下：什么是警觉注意？
39:26 And also what is not being attentive, inattention - right? Inattention and attention. What is attention? What is the relationship of attention to awareness? Right? You understand? We are aware of the tent, of the people and so on. In that awareness, which is to see the whole thing, as you enter in the tent you see. And in that attention, in that awareness there is choice. Ah, they're my friends there, I don't know those people there. I wave to the friends and I don't to the others. And in that awareness I say, 'That is a nice shirt, and that is a rather ugly one. He has got a rather nice face, and she looks quite nice and intelligent. I am surprised she is here'. It is quite funny. So in that awareness there is choice. Right? There is choice. They are there and here. So that choice prevents total awareness. Can one be aware without choice? You understand? You do it now as we are talking. Please don't look at me but watch yourself and see if you can be aware without any choice. You have to choose between good material and bad material - right? You have to choose between a good car and a bad car, secondhand car and so on and so on. We won't go into that. You have to choose. But in awareness can one be free of choice altogether? Just to be aware and not say, 'I don't like this shirt, I do like that shirt, he is nice to me' - you follow? All that activity going on. To be so completely aware without choice is attention - right? Is that clear? Are we together in this? We are together in this only if you do it. If you are completely aware that you choose, that you have like and dislike, that you have motive, and see how these motives, like and dislike, my friend and not my friend, you know, all that thing that goes on, then you are not aware fully. You are aware fully when you have no choice, naturally - right? That state of awareness is attention - right? That state of attention has no me in the middle of it. Clear? Choice always has a centre from which you choose - right? That is the ego, the me, the self, and all that. Whereas if you observe and be aware without choice, that awareness expands to total attention. In that attention there is no self, there is no me, I like, don't like - you follow? All that business. 以及，什么是不警觉注意，不注意——对吗？ 不注意和注意。 什么是警觉注意？ 警觉注意和觉察有什么关系？ 对吧？你明白了吗？ 我们觉察到了这个帐篷，觉察到了这里的人等等。 在那种觉察中，也就是去看到全部的东西， 当你进入这个帐篷的时候，你就看到了一切。 而在那种警觉注意中，在那种觉察中，会有选择。 啊，这里有一些我的朋友，但是那里的几个人我不认识。 我向朋友们挥手致意，但我不会向其他人挥手。 在那种觉察中，我说， ‘这是一件很漂亮的衬衫，而那是一件很难看的衬衫。’ 他的相貌真好看， 她看起来真是漂亮又聪明， 我很惊讶，她竟然也在这里’。 这的确很好笑。 所以在那种觉察之中有着选择。 对吧？存在着选择。他们在这里或者那里。 所以，这种选择，它阻碍了完全的觉察。 那么，我们能够没有选择地去觉察吗？ 你们理解了吗？ 当我们此刻正在谈话的时候，你就在这么做了。 请注意，不要看我，而是要观察你自己，然后看看 你是否可以没有任何选择地觉察？ 有时候你必须要选择， 在好的材料和坏的材料之间选择——对吧？ 你必须要在好的汽车、差的汽车、 二手车之间作出选择，等等这类事情。 我们就不深入这些了。你不得不作出选择。 但是在觉察中， 我们能否彻底摆脱掉选择呢？ 只是去觉察， 而不说，‘我不喜欢这件衬衫， 我很喜欢那件衬衫，他对我很好’——你们跟上了吗？ 所有这些活动一直在发生进行着。 要如此完全地觉察而没有任何选择，这就是警觉注意——对吧？ 这一点清楚了吗？这点我们都明白了吗？ 只有当你这么做的时候，我们才算是都明白了它。 如果你完全地觉察到了自己在选择， 自己有着喜欢和厌恶，自己有着动机， 并且看到这些动机是如何……这些喜欢和厌恶， 我的朋友和不是我的朋友，你知道的，当所有这些事情发生时， 那时你就没有完全地在觉察。 当你没有选择时， 你才是完全充分地在觉察，这是很自然的——对吧？ 那种觉察的状态就是警觉注意——对吧？ 在那种注意的状态下是没有一个‘我’介入其中的。 清楚了吗？ 选择总是有着一个中心，你经由这个中心来选择——对吧？ 这个中心就是自我、‘我’，我自己，等等这些。 然而，如果你能观察并且毫无选择地觉察的话， 那种觉察就会扩展为完全的注意。 而在那种注意中是没有自我的， 没有一个‘我’，我喜欢，我不喜欢——你明白了吗？所有这类事情。
44:54 So, now what is inattention? Is inattention distraction? You understand? We are distracted by the noise, by the train, by, you know, various forms of distractions. Why do we call it distractions? You are following all this? Are we together in this? Why do we call it distraction? Because I don't want to be distracted from this, from what I am doing. Right? Where the doing is attention. And if I become... if there is attention where there is inattention, the inattention is attention. Oh lordy! Why do we call it inattention? I don't think there is such a thing as inattention, or distraction. There is only complete attention or not attention. That's all. Right? I would not, personally, we wouldn't say there is any distraction. There is a train going by, I am aware of it. And there is no choice, I want to listen to that man - you understand? I am just listening to that sound. So there is only attention, and why shouldn't there be inattention, what is wrong? We are working all day and we sleep at night - right? Would you call sleeping inattention? You understand? One goes for a walk, looks at all the trees, the mountains, the perfume on a sunny day of the pines, and the running river, the sound of it, that is all attention, if you are attending. And why should there be no attention, you take a relax - you follow? We want to be something all the time. We want to have a continuity of something, which we think is right. And therefore that which has continuity is not right. Right? I wonder if you understand this? Are we together in this? We want a continuity, don't we? Continuity of happiness, continuity of relationship, continuity of so many, many things, which is what? Continuity of memory - right? And if there is no continuity, we feel lost, we feel empty. Why shouldn't we be empty for a while? Why shouldn't we be nothing? Even for a few minutes. But to us that is frightening because we know continuity. Right? So attention has no continuity. There is only attention. One doesn't say, 'I must be continuously attentive', then it is a mechanical process. Attention is something living, not a conclusion that I must be attentive. That becomes too childish - right? Could you tell us something... 所以，那么，什么是不注意呢？ 不注意是分心吗？ 你明白了吗？ 我们会因为噪音而分心，因为火车声音而分心， 因为……你知道的，各种形式的分心。 为什么我们要把它称为分心呢？ 你们跟上所有这些了吗？我们都明白这些了吗？ 为什么我们要把它称为分心？ 因为我不想要我正在做事情的时候 注意力被分散。 对吧？ 那时我所做的事情，就是我的注意力所在。 而如果我变得 如果我注意到了我的不注意， 那么那个不注意就成了我的注意力所在。 噢，天哪！ 为什么我们要把它称为不注意呢？ 我认为并不存在‘不注意’ 或者分心这样的东西。 只存在那种完整的注意，要么就是没有注意。仅此而已。 对吗？ 就我个人而言，我不会 我们不会说存在任何‘分心’这样的东西。 一辆火车正在经过，我觉察到了它。 这其中是没有选择的， 比如说我想要听那个人讲话——你理解了吗？ 我只是聆听那个声音。 所以存在的只有注意， 而为什么我们不应该有不注意呢？不注意有什么错吗？ 我们一整天都在工作， 然后晚上的时候，我们睡觉了——对吧？ 那么你会把睡觉称为是不注意吗？ 你明白了吗？ 某人出去散步， 他看到了所有那些树木、群山、 闻到了阳光照耀下松树的芳香， 还有那潺潺的流水，听到了它的声音， 这些全都是警觉注意，如果你注意到它们的话。 所以为什么还会有不注意呢？ 你只是放松一下——你们明白了吗？ 我们一直都想要成为什么。 我们想要某个事物能够延续下去 ——我们认为它是对的。 而那个有延续的事物其实是不对的。 对吗？我不知道你是否理解了这点？ 这点我们都明白了吗？ 我们都想要延续，不是吗？ 延续我们的幸福，延续我们的关系， 延续无数的事物，那么这是什么呢？ 它是记忆的延续——对吧？ 假如没有了延续，我们就会感到失落，感到空空如也。 为什么我们就不能‘空空如也’一会儿呢？ 为什么我们就不能变成‘空无’呢？ 哪怕只是几分钟的时间也好。 但对我们来说，这太令人恐惧了，因为我们知道那种延续。 对吧？ 所以，警觉注意是没有延续性的。只存在着那种注意。 我们不会说，‘我必须要持续不断地保持注意’， 那样的话，它就变成了一个机械化的过程。 而警觉注意是鲜活流动的， 而不是一个结论，说什么我必须要注意。 那样的话就太幼稚了——不是吗？ 你能否告诉我们一些
50:41 Could you tell us more about this vast intelligence of which you speak? Is it an untapped capacity within the brain, or is it some disembodied force to which we may become open? 你能否与我们更详细地讲一下 你所说的那种巨大的智慧？ 它是不是头脑中还未开发的能力？ 还是说它是某种无形的力量，而我们需要对它保持开放？
51:02 Lovely question, isn't it? Could you tell us more about this vast intelligence of which you speak? Is it an untapped capacity within the brain, or is it some disembodied force to which we may become open? 很可爱的问题，不是吗？ 你能否与我们更详细地讲一下 你所说的那种巨大的智慧？ 它是不是头脑中还未开发的能力？ 还是说它是某种无形的力量，而我们需要对它保持开放？
51:33 There is ordinary intelligence, isn't there? You wouldn't be sitting here if you hadn't intelligence, would you? You took a train, you walked, you went by a car, you went by a bus and so on, which is the exercise of intelligence to come here because you wanted to come. Or it is intelligence to write a good letter. It is intelligence to put the computer together. It is intelligence that has put man on the moon. And it is not intelligence that puts a flag up there! Right? And it is intelligence that has made the computers, missiles, the atom bomb, the neutron bomb, the hydrogen bomb and all the things they are investigating about cancer - you follow? Liver trouble and so on, so on. That all requires intelligence. And that intelligence is the outcome of thought - right? Right? But that intelligence is limited because it is the outcome of very careful, logical, experimental, systematic working it out, which is thought - right? And thought is limited therefore all measurement, which is technology, is limited; they are adding more and more and more every year - right? Where there is the 'more' it is limited - right? Are we together? Or the better is limited. I am better than yesterday. It is very limited. 存在着那种通常的智慧，不是吗？ 如果你没有这种智慧，你就不会坐在这里了， 你会吗？ 你乘坐火车过来，你走路过来，你坐车过来， 你坐公共汽车过来，等等， 你需要运用智慧才能来到这里， 因为你想要过来。 写一封优美的信件，这是智慧。 将电脑组装起来，这是智慧。 将人类送上月球，这是智慧。 不过在月球上插一面旗帜，这就不是智慧了！ 对吗？ 正是这种智慧 制造出了电脑、导弹、 原子弹、中子弹、氢弹， 以及人们正在研究的 所有那些关于癌症的东西——你们明白了吗？ 肝病，等等。 所有这些事情都需要智慧。 而那种智慧是思想的产物——对吧？ 对吗？ 然而那种智慧是有限的， 因为它是人们非常仔细、逻辑、 通过试验，通过系统化的方式而实现的， 它就是思想——对吗？ 而思想是局限的， 因此所有的度量——也就是科学技术——都是有限的； 科学技术每一年都在不断地增加中——对吧？ 当一个事物可以变得‘更多’时，它就是有限的——对吧？ 我们都明白了吗？ 或者那个可以变得‘更好’的东西，它也是有限的。 我变得比昨天更好了。 这是非常局限的。
54:09 Now, is there an intelligence which is not limited? I am asking you, I am... we are not telling each other. We recognise the common intelligence, earn money, do business, go to the factory, get up in the mornings, you know, all the rest of it. That requires certain intelligence, which is limited - right? Because it is the outcome of thought. And thought born of knowledge, and as knowledge is limited always in the future or now, so thought is always limited. And the intelligence of thought is limited. That is simple. And is there intelligence which is not limited? Right? Now who is going to find out? How will you find out? How - not how - how do you enquire? You understand? How do you probe into this, knowing that thought has created intelligence which is limited? The artist, the poet, the great sculptures, the great literary people, painters and so on, all their things are limited, naturally, though the artists may not accept that. Scientists have accepted it because they are adding more and more every year, getting more and more knowledge about biology, about everything. So is there an intelligence which is not additive? You understand the word - adding, adding to it? How can one probe into this? 那么，是否存在一种没有局限的智慧呢？ 我正在问你，我并不是……我们并不是在彼此告诉对方什么。 我们都能识别那种通常的智慧， 赚钱，做生意，去工厂上班， 早上要起床，你知道的，所有这些事情。 它们需要一定的智慧，但这种智慧是局限的——对吗？ 因为它是思想的产物。 而思想源自于知识， 由于知识是局限的——不管是未来还是现在，知识永远都是局限的—— 所以思想也永远都是局限的。 所以思想的那种智慧是有限的。这是很简单的道理。 那么是否存在没有局限的智慧呢？ 对吗？ 那么谁要去发现它呢？你要如何去发现它呢？ 你要如何——不是‘如何’——你要怎么去探询它呢？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 在知道了思想已经创造出了那种局限的智慧后， 你要怎么去探究它呢？ 艺术家、诗人、伟大的雕塑家、 伟大的文学家、画家，等等， 他们所有的作品都是局限的，这是自然的， 尽管艺术家们或许并不接受这一点。 科学家们已经接受了这一点， 因为他们每一年都在增加着越来越多的科学技术， 获得越来越多的知识，生物学上的知识，任何事物的知识。 所以，是否存在一种并非累加的智慧呢？ 你明白这个词语吧——累加，不断地增加它？ 我们要怎么才能去探究它呢？
56:45 To go into it together... I am not telling you what to do, please. I am not your guru. I am not your leader. I am not your helper. That's not cruelty because we have been helped by so many people for thousands of years, and this help has made us weak. This help from seeking from so many directions is making us feeble. We cannot stand on our own feet, observe and be responsible - right? If you are seeking help, how can you be responsible? Or if you are dependent, how can you be responsible? 我们一起来深入它 请注意，我并没有在告诉你该怎么做。我并不是你的古鲁。 我不是你的领袖。我也不是帮助你的人。 这并非残忍， 因为数千年以来，我们曾经得到过 如此多的人的帮助， 而这种帮助使我们变得软弱无力了。 这种来自于我们的寻找、来自于如此多方向的帮助 正在使我们变得虚弱无力。 我们无法独立自主，无法去观察和负责 ——对吧？ 如果你在寻找帮助，你又怎么可能负起责任来呢？ 或者如果你依赖他人，你又怎么可能会负责呢？
57:51 So how do we... is it possible to probe into this? Into that intelligence which is not limited? That intelligence we don't know - right? It is not the speaker has talked about it, he may know it, or he may not know it, that is irrelevant. But how shall we come upon it? To enquire into it, I must enquire into my whole existence - right? That means my existence, daily existence, not some illusory existence on another plane, on another dimension and so on, super ego, super consciousness, all that ideological nonsense. 所以我们要怎么 我们是否可能去探究它呢？ 去探究这种没有局限的智慧？ 我们并不知道那种智慧——对吧？ 并不是因为演讲者谈过它，你就去探究， 他也许知道它，也许不知道它， 这是无关紧要的。 而是我们要怎么去遇见它？ 要探询它， 我就必须去探询我整个的生活——对吧？ 那意味着我的生活， 是我的日常生活，而并非某种幻想中的生活， 另一个层次中的生活，另一个维度中的生活，等等， ‘超我’、超意识，所有这些意识形态上的胡扯。
59:19 So I must probe into my life. Obviously the first thing is where there is conflict there is no intelligence. Right? If I am in conflict all the time with people, with ideas, with theories, opinions - right? - so is there an end to conflict? Which means is there an end to conflict and other problems so that the brain is free? Right? Are we together in this, at least verbally? You can see the logic of it, the sanity of this. The brain is conditioned and conditioned to conflict - I am taking that one issue. The brain is in conflict. Where there is conflict it is impossible to see things clearly. Right? I see things very clearly that thought is limited and whatever it does is limited, technologically, or spiritually, so-called spiritually, is limited. And one sees also conflict being the way of life, struggle, being somebody, achieving something and so on, so on, is conflict. And conflict distorts perception - right? If I am quarrelling with my wife, or my husband, or with the neighbour, I cannot see things as they are. I won't go into it more. 所以我必须要去……探究我的生活。 很显然，第一件事情就是， 当有了冲突，就不会有智慧。 对吧？ 如果我一直都和他人、 和各种理念，各种理论与观点发生冲突的话——对吧？ 所以，冲突可能结束吗？ 它的意思就是，冲突和其他的问题是否可能止息 从而让头脑获得自由？ 对吗？ 这点我们都理解了吗？——至少口头文字上理解了它？ 你可以看到它的逻辑，和它的明智。 头脑是局限的，它被局限在冲突之中 ——我正在处理这一个问题。 头脑处于冲突中。 当有了冲突时，我们就不可能看清楚事物了。 对吧？ 我非常清楚地看到了这些事情，即思想是局限的， 因此它所做的任何事情都是局限的， 不管是技术上的事情，还是‘灵性’上的——所谓的‘灵性’上的事情， 它们都是局限的。 而我们也看到了，冲突就是我们生活的方式， 去奋斗，去成为某号人物， 去实现某个目标，等等， 这些都是冲突。 而冲突扭曲了我们的感知——对吧？ 如果我和我的妻子、我的丈夫或者邻居吵架， 那么我就无法看到事物的本来面目了。 这个我就不展开讲了。
1:01:49 So there must be, if I see the truth of it, that very truth frees the brain from conflict. That is intelligence. Right? Seeing the truth of something and let that truth act - right? - I see very clearly as long as there is conflict in the brain it is not possible to see things clearly. That very perception ends conflict - right? Because it is so. It is so - a snake is dangerous. A wild animal is dangerous. It is so. There is no two ways about it. Right. 所以，我们必须要有……如果我看到了这其中的真相， 那么那个真相本身，就可以让大脑摆脱掉冲突了。 这就是智慧。 对吧？ 看到某事物的真相，然后让那个真相去行动 ——对吧？—— 我非常清楚地看到 只要头脑中还是存在着冲突， 那么我们就不可能看清事物了。 这种洞察本身就终结了冲突——对吧？ 因为它就是如此。 它就是如此——毒蛇是危险的。 野兽是危险的。 它就是如此。它没有第二种可能性。 好了。
1:02:55 So where is conflict, where is the root of conflict? What makes the brain live in endless conflict? Is there a remedy for it? Not drugs, not alcohol, not some kind of fanciful imagination. Is there a perception that frees the brain from conflict and therefore that brain is now moving or living in quite a different state - right? And what is that state? You are following? We are not analysing, we are just observing. 所以，冲突在哪里？冲突的根源在哪里？ 是什么让头脑陷入于无休止的冲突中？ 对此有什么补救方法吗？ 不是靠那些毒品，不是靠酒精， 不是靠某种天马行空的想象。 而是，是否有一种洞察 它能够让头脑摆脱掉冲突， 由此头脑此刻便走向了 或者生活在了一种截然不同的状态中——对吗？ 那么，那种状态是什么呢？ 你们跟上了吗？ 我们并不是在分析，我们只是在观察。
1:03:55 Very briefly - we have got so little time - very briefly: the analyser is the analysed. Now there is the analyser separate from the thing he is analysing. I am analysing myself, suppose. I have separated myself from the thing which I am observing - right? I am angry or jealous or neurotic, probably neurotic more. I am neurotic and then I say, why am I neurotic as though it was something outside of me - right? I am neurotic because the brain is neurotic - right? My whole being is neurotic, it is not - I am different from neurosis. So the observer, the analyser is the analysed - clear? Like the experiencer is the experience. Of course. It is rather difficult. Need I go into this? The thinker is the thought - right? That's clear. The thinker who says 'I am separate from thought' and therefore he controls thought, shapes - right? But the thinker is thought itself. So the thinker is the thought. The analyser is the analysed. 让我非常简单地来说一下——我们时间不多了—— 很简单地说一下吧：分析者就是那个被分析物。 你瞧，现在有一个分析者，他是脱离于那个他在分析的东西的。 假如我在分析我自己。 那么我就已经把我自己和那个 我正在观察的对象分离了——对吧？ 我是愤怒的、嫉妒的或者神经质的，也许神经质更多一点。 我是神经质的， 然后我说：为什么我是神经质的？ 就好像‘神经质’是某个在我之外的东西一样——对吧？ 我之所以是神经质的，因为头脑是神经质的——不是吗？ 我的整个存在都是神经质的， 它并不是说我不同于那个神经症。 所以那个观察者、分析者，他就是被分析物——清楚了吗？ 就如经验者就是经验一样。 这是毫无疑问的。 它是相当难以理解的。需要我深入讲一下吗？ 思想者就是那个思想——对吗？这是很明显的。 那个思想者说‘我和思想是分离的’ 因此他去控制思想、塑造思想——对吧？ 但是那个思想者就是思想本身。 所以思想者就是思想。 分析者就是被分析物。
1:05:52 Now move the next step, which is: the experiencer is not different from the experience. He thinks he is different and therefore he says 'I must experience'. To experience you must recognise it - right? Otherwise it is not an experience. But to recognise it is to already know it. I wonder if... So the experiencer is the experience. The thinker is the thought. The analyser is the analysed. Right? Probably the analysts and therapists and so on won't agree with this. But it doesn't matter. Probably, I said, they may. 现在，我们再更进一步，也就是： 那个经验者和经验其实并没有什么不同。 他认为自己是不同的， 所以他才会说‘我必须要去体验经历’。 要经历体验某个东西，你必须能够识别它才行——对吧？ 否则的话它就不是一个经验了。 然而识别它就意味着你已经知道它了。 我不知道你们是否 所以经验者就是那个经验。 思想者就是思想。分析者就是被分析物。 对吗？ 可能那些分析家和治疗专家，等等这类人 他们不会同意这一点。但这并没有什么关系。 我只是说可能，他们也许会同意。
1:06:53 So there has been, if there is no conflict, it means there is only the fact - right? Right? There is only the ending of conflict. It is a fact. Or not a fact. Then what takes place in relationship? You understand? That is when there is no conflict inside my brain, inside the brain - it is not my brain, it is the brain of all of us, that we won't go into for the moment. This brain is now without conflict - right? Because I have watched it, worked, looked at it, and therefore in my relationship there is no conflict with the woman, the man - right? Then when there is no conflict in relationship then what is it? Is it not love? Right? When there is no conflict - you understand? You are all so dazed about all this. When there is no conflict between you and me - you understand? - there is no difference between you and me. You may be a woman and I am a man and so on. You may be tall, short, black, white, purple, or whatever it is, but when there is no conflict there is total relationship with you and me. That is love. Right? Love is not jealousy. Love is not desire. Love is not pleasure. Pleasure means conflict. Desire means conflict. I want to do something, you might want, my wife wants to do something else. Where there is love she can do what she wants but there is love. You understand? The whole transformation has taken place. Where there is love there is compassion. And where there is love and compassion that is intelligence. That intelligence gives... In that intelligence there is absolute security, not relative security. You understand? That is intelligence. But one has to be tremendously watchful, which we have been now. And that intelligence is limitless, it is not yours, or mine, it is intelligence. Love is not my love and your love, it is love. Yes, sirs. That love may be for one or the many, it is still love. Where there is love there is no hate, there is no enemy. Sir, don't you know all this? 所以，我们一直有着 如果没有了冲突，那意味着只剩下了事实——对吧？ 对吗？ 只剩下了冲突的止息。这是一个事实。 或者也不应该说它是一个事实。 那么关系中会发生什么呢？ 你们明白了吗？ 也就是说，当我的头脑中没有了冲突，当头脑中没有了冲突 ——不是我的头脑，那个头脑是我们所有人的， 这个我们暂时就不细讲了。 这个头脑此刻没有了冲突——对吧？ 因为我已经观察过了它，我努力工作过了，我审视过了它， 因此在我的关系中 ——我和那个女人或男人的关系中——便没有了冲突，对吧？ 而当关系中不再有冲突后，那么它是什么呢？ 它难道不就是爱吗？ 对吧？ 当没有了冲突——你们理解了吗？ 你们对这一切都感到十分茫然迷惑。 当你和我之间没有了冲突 ——你明白了吗？—— 你和我之间就不再有区别了。 你也许是一个女人，而我是一个男人，等等。 你也许很高、很矮，你也许是黑皮肤的、白皮肤的、紫色皮肤的，或者无论什么颜色， 然而当没有了冲突时， 那么你和我之间便有了完整完全的关系。 而那就是爱。不是吗？ 爱不是嫉妒。 爱不是欲望。 爱不是快感。 快感意味着冲突。 欲望意味着冲突。 我想要做某件事情， 而你也许想要……我的妻子想要做其他的事。 当有了爱， 她可以做任何她想做的事，但爱就在那里。你明白了吗？ 那整个转变就会发生了。 当有了爱，就会有慈悲。 而当有了爱和慈悲，这就是智慧。 那种智慧给了我们 在那种智慧中有着绝对的安全， 而不是相对的安全。 你明白了吗？这就是智慧。 但是我们必须要高度警觉注意， 我们现在就是如此。 而那种智慧是无限的， 它不是你的，也不是我的，它就是智慧。 爱不是我的爱，也不是你的爱，它就是爱。 是的，先生们。 那种爱也许是对一个人的爱，也许是对很多人的爱，但它仍旧是爱。 当有了爱，就不会有仇恨，不会有敌人了。 先生，你难道不知道这一切吗？
1:10:54 So that is intelligence. You can't talk endlessly about it unless you do it. One can talk about it, as I have been doing. If you go into it much deeper, I don't know if there is time for it. 所以，这就是智慧。 你不能无止境地去谈论它——除非你这样去做。 你可以去谈论它——就像我所做的。 但如果你更深入一下它的话， 我不知道是否还有时间来讲这个。
1:11:22 You know, have you ever thought, looked at a drum? A drum is tuned to its highest excellence, the right tone. And when you strike on it, it gives the right note. Right? It is tuned. So the brain, when it is tuned, it gives the right note, the right response. I wonder if you capture all this. And it is not tuned, like the drum is not, when it is in conflict, it is slack. So to have the brain tuned. Not you tune the brain, because you are part of the brain. I won't go into all that. So is it possible, like the drum which is tuned to its highest excellence, to have the brain so tuned that it gives the right note all the time. Yes, sirs. 你知道的，你有没有想过那个鼓，观察过一面鼓？ 人们会将鼓调音至它最佳表现的状态， 将它调至正确的音调音色。 这样当你敲击它时，它就会发出正确的音符了。 对吧？ 它已经调好了音。 所以当头脑调好了音， 它就会发出正确的音符、正确的反应了。 我不知道你们是否领会了这一切？ 而当头脑处于冲突之中，当头脑懈怠懒散时，它就是没有调好音 ——就像一面鼓没有调好音一样。 所以，头脑调好了音。 不是你去给头脑调音，因为你就是头脑的一部分。 我就不深入所有这些了。 所以我们是否可能像 那面已经被调音至最佳状态的鼓一样， 也让头脑调好音 从而让它始终发出正确的音符呢？ 好了，先生们。
1:13:04 Why do the teachings you put forth have so little effect on us? 为什么你所给予的教导对我们没有什么效果？
1:13:20 Why do the so-called teachings - I am adding the word 'so-called' - have so little effect on us? 为什么所谓的教导——我在这里加上了‘所谓的’—— 对我们没有什么效果？
1:13:33 Are you asking the question of the speaker? Or are you asking the question of yourself? Many people have asked this question of the speaker. And the speaker says to you: have you asked that question of yourself? Why a truth has so little effect on you, on us, why? One can give a dozen reasons - right? Laziness, indifference, weariness, boredom, holding onto one's habit, being conditioned, and saying it is awfully difficult to get rid of conditioning, what am I to do about it, tell me about it, and so on and so on. So you are never asking this question of yourself: why some of you who have listened to the speaker for years and years and years, why have you not changed? The speaker is asking you the question. You are not asking the speaker. I am reversing... the speaker is reversing the table on to you. He is challenging you if you will kindly... that challenge is respectful, not impudent. So he says: why have you not, having heard, heard, heard, read, video and all the bla, why have you not changed? Will more suffering help you to change? Because we have suffered for a million years, a thousand years, one day of suffering is enough. So will suffering help you, more suffering? Obviously not - right? More pressure? Obviously not, you have had tremendous pressures, environmental, monetary, every kind of pressures, impressions, and more threats, will it change you? Hell and heaven - threats. That has not changed us. More leaders, better leaders, wiser leaders, better gurus than the old guru! What will make us change? Nothing, except your own perception - right? Nothing from the outside can ever change us. The communists tried this. The totalitarians have said this, let us organise the outside so marvellously, etc., you know, all the rest of it, if you have followed the communist theories and so on, hoping by external arrangements the psyche will change. Right? That is one of their deep tenets. And it has not happened. On the contrary. 你是在问演讲者这个问题吗？ 还是说你是在问自己这个问题？ 很多人曾经问过演讲者这个问题。 而演讲者要问你们： 你们是否曾经问过自己这个问题？ 为什么一个真理却对你们、对我们没什么效果？ 为什么？ 我们可以给出一堆理由——对吧？ 懒惰、不重视、疲倦、厌烦， 执著于自己的习惯，深受制约， 然后说摆脱那种制约是极其困难的， 我该怎么办呢？请告诉我， 等等。 所以你从来没有问过自己这个问题： 为什么你们中一些人 这么多年以来一直在听演讲者的讲话， 为什么你们还没有改变？ 演讲者在问你们这个问题。 而不是你们在问演讲者。 我把它反过来了 演讲者现在反过来问你们了。 他在向你们发出挑战——请问你们是否能 这个挑战是有礼貌的挑战，而不是放肆无礼的。 所以他问：为什么你们没有 在听了无数演讲，读了很多书，看了很多录像等等这些以后， 为什么你们还是没有改变？ 更多的痛苦能够帮助你改变吗？ 因为我们已经痛苦了上百万年了， 上千年了， 其实一天的痛苦就已足够了。 所以痛苦能帮助你吗？更多的痛苦？ 很显然不能——对吧？ 更多的压力呢？ 显然也不能，你们曾经遭受过如此巨大的压力 ——环境的压力、财政的压力， 各种压力和影响， 那么更多的威胁呢？它能改变你吗？ 地狱和天堂——这类威胁。 它并没有改变我们。 更多的领袖、更好的领袖，更聪明的领袖， 更好的古鲁们，他们要比老的古鲁更好！ 什么东西能够让我们改变呢？ 没有任何东西可以 ——除了你自身的洞察，对吧？ 没有任何来自于外界的事物能够改变我们。 共产主义者曾经尝试过它。 极权主义者曾经这样说过： 让我们完美绝妙地组织安排好那些外在的事物，等等， 你知道的，所有这类事情。 如果你曾经追随过共产主义者的理论等等， 你会希望经由外在的安排部署，心智将会发生改变。对吧？ 这是他们深刻的信条之一。 然而改变并未发生。 结果恰恰相反。
1:18:17 So what will make each one of us change? Not superficially, adjusting to some words and some ideas, that is no change at all, but something profoundly, radically change. If you do not rely on the outer, then you have to rely entirely on yourself. And because we cannot rely on ourselves we seek help, we seek all the gurus, read books and all the rest of it because we have never been able to look at ourselves, work this out for ourselves. Which doesn't mean we become more and more selfish. On the contrary, this demands great responsibility - you understand? That you are totally responsible for yourself, whatever you do. It is no good blaming environment, heritage, my mother and father were like this, therefore I am like that. Society is ugly, so I am caught in society - you follow? This demands that you work. Either you work hard, you work very hard to earn money - right? Spend years and years, day after day, night after night, year in and year out, to get money - do you realise how you all work, all the human beings work? And we don't work an infinitesimal of that energy inwardly. And we have become feeble, irresponsible. So we don't change because we don't want to - simply. If you want to do something, you do it. 所以，什么东西才能让我们每个人都改变呢？ 不是那种肤浅的改变，调整自己以适合于某些话语或理念， ——这根本不是改变， 而是某种深刻的、彻底的改变。 如果你不依赖于外界的人事物， 那么你就不得不完全依靠你自己了。 而由于我们无法依靠自己， 于是我们便寻求帮助，我们寻找各种各样的古鲁， 我们阅读各类书籍，等等， 因为我们从未能够观察我们自己， 为了自己而去实现它。 这并不表示我们变得越来越自私了。 恰恰相反， 这需要巨大的责任感——你明白了吗？ 也就是你完全为自己负责，无论你做了什么。 去怪罪环境，怪罪遗传， 我的母亲和父亲就是这样的，所以我也像他们一样。 社会是丑恶的，因此我受困其中——你明白了吗？ 这需要你行动起来。 要么你努力去做， 你会非常努力地去挣钱——对吧？ 花费无数年的时间去挣钱， 日日夜夜不停地去挣钱， 年复一年地去赚钱 ——你们是否意识到了你们都是如何去努力工作的，全人类是如何努力工作的？ 而我们却不愿意将这种能量的极小一部分投入到内在世界中去。 我们已经变得软弱无力，不负责任。 所以，我们没有改变，因为我们并不想改变——很简单的道理。 如果你想要做某件事的话，你直接就去做了。
1:21:32 Sirs, we have answered most of the questions. It is nearly twelve o'clock. Really, there is no question at all. There are no questions at all, and therefore no answers. You are the problem. You are the trap. One is caught in this prison and you have to work like - I was going to say hell - you have to work, observe, and all the rest of it must come from your heart and your mind, then you are a total human being, free. Where there is freedom there is no fear. Or rather where there is fear there is no freedom. And when there is freedom you don't need any god - right? Right, sirs. May I getup please? 先生们，我们已经回答了大部分的问题。 现在已经快12点了。 实际上，根本就不存在什么问题。 根本就没有任何问题，因此也就没有答案。 你就是那个问题。 你就是那个困境。 你被困在这个监狱中， 而你必须要去努力 ——我本打算说‘玩命似的努力’—— 你必须去努力，去观察， 等等这一切，它们必须是你全心全意去做的， 那时你就是一个完整的人，自由的人。 当有了自由，就不会有恐惧。 或者更确切地说，当有了恐惧时，就不会有自由。 当有了自由，你们就不需要任何上帝了 ——对吗？ 就这样吧，先生们。 请问我可以起身了吗？