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SA84T3 - 思想和造成分裂的过程
瑞士，萨嫩，第三次公开演讲，1984年7月12日



0:19 Thank goodness, it is a little bit cooler! 谢天谢地，天气稍微凉快一点了！
0:41 May we continue with what we were talking about the day before yesterday? We were talking about freedom and - I have forgotten! We were talking about freedom and energy and time, I think. 我们可以接着 我们前天所讲的东西继续讲下去吗？ 我们当时谈论了自由， 以及——我已经忘记了！ 我们当时谈论了自由和能量，还有时间，我想应该是这样的。
1:43 We ought to consider this morning together what is the capacity of the brain? The brain that is inside the skull. And that brain is very carefully protected, various layers of bone, air, more bone and then water, so it is very carefully protected. The speaker is not a specialist on brains - thank god! But one has observed how the brain operates for oneself. The brain has extraordinary capacity, as is shown how it has developed in the technological world. They are doing incredible things in the field of technology, computers, and all the incredible, unbelievable technological things that are taking place throughout the world. And inwardly, I do not mean in the sense of veins, bones, arteries, liver and heart and all that, inwardly, psychologically, we are very, very limited. That is a fact. And after forty five thousand years or more we are still rather primitive psychologically, inwardly. And our brains, which have incredible capacity, psychologically are very limited, and therefore we are misusing the technological world and all the inventions that human beings are bringing about to do immense harm and also great good, but psychologically we have neglected the capacity of the brain inwardly. Why? Please, as we said the other day, and one must repeat it again, we are observing together, seeing objectively, not merely subjectively prejudiced, opinionated, holding on to certain dogmas, beliefs, and conclusions but together observing very closely why the psychological world, which is the whole field of thought, emotions, sensations, fears, pleasures, joys, and incalculable suffering that man has gone through, why inwardly we are so limited, concerned with our own self, with our own advancement, with our own so-called progress, with our own ambitions and so on, do we together see the limitation of that? 而今天早上，我们应该一起来思考一下： 头脑拥有怎样的能力？ 也就是那个在头骨之中的大脑。 那个大脑被精心保护着， 有不同层次的骨骼保护， 空气，更多的骨骼保护，然后是水分的保护， 所以它受到了非常精心的保护。 演讲者并不是一位大脑专家——感谢上帝！ 但是某人已经观察过了他自己的头脑是如何运作的。 头脑有着非凡的能力， 这种能力已经在科技世界的发展中得以展现了。 人们正在做着那些不可思议的事情， 在科学技术的领域，比如电脑， 和所有那些不可思议、难以置信的科技上的事情， 这些事情正在全世界发生着。 然而内在上，我的意思并不是指静脉、骨骼、 动脉、肝脏和心脏等等这些东西， 内在上、心理上，我们是非常非常局限的。 这是一个事实。 在经过了45000年或更多的岁月之后， 心理上、内在上而言，我们仍旧是相当原始的。 而我们的头脑——它有着惊人的能力—— 在心理上却是非常局限的， 因此我们在滥用科技世界 和所有那些人类带来的发明物 去做那些带来极大伤害的事，同样也做了很多大好事， 但是心理上，我们却忽视了 内在领域的头脑的那种能力。 为什么？ 请注意，就如我们前几天说过的，某人必须要再重复一下它了， 我们是在一起观察，客观地去看它， 我们不只是主观地，带着偏见地，固执己见地去看， 坚持着某些教条、信仰和结论， 而是一起非常密切地去观察 为什么在心理世界， 心理世界，这整个领域中包含了思想、 情感、感觉、 恐惧、快感、喜悦， 以及人类所经历过的无数的痛苦， 为什么我们的内在是如此的局限， 只关心我们自己， 关心我们自己的提升， 关心我们自己的所谓的‘进步’， 关心我们自己的理想抱负，等等， 我们是否都看到了这其中的局限？
6:37 Please I am asking this question, let's consider it together. The area of psychology, psyche, is in the field of thought and all the projections that thought has put forward, images, imagination, symbols, mythology, and the various hurts human beings have received from childhood, fears which man has borne for forty five thousand years and the pleasures in relationship, both sexual and other ways of pleasure, and the pain of relationship. And also - not only personal suffering but suffering of humanity. And man has also thought, or wanted, or desired, or hoped there was something more than the mere physical activity, something greater, something that is holy, sacred. Man has sought all these things since time began. And we are still groping, we are still seeking how to escape, or how to understand, or how to resolve the cage, the prison in which the brain is psychologically caught. We are understanding each other? Why have we not paid attention to it? Why have we not broken the limitation and find out the extraordinary capacity inwardly of the brain? Why? Is it that we have always sought security? Both externally and inwardly, because security is necessary, otherwise the brain can't function at its excellence - right? 请注意，我提出了这个问题，让我们一起来思考它。 心理的领域，心灵，它是落入于思想的范畴中的， 所有那些思想带来的投射物， 那些意象、想象、象征符号、神话， 以及人类从小开始就受到的各种伤害， 那些人类已经忍受了有45000年的恐惧 和关系中的种种快感， 包括性快感以及其他形式的快感， 还有关系中的痛苦。 此外， 不仅仅只有个人的痛苦，还有人类的痛苦。 而人类同样也思考过，他想要、渴求或者希望 能够有某种比外在物质活动更高的东西， 某种更伟大的东西，某种圣洁的、神圣的事物。 自从有历史记录以来，人类就一直在寻找这些东西。 而我们现在仍旧在摸索中， 我们仍旧在寻求如何逃避， 或者如何去了解，或者如何去消除掉 头脑在心理上被囚禁于其中的那个牢笼、监狱。 我们彼此理解了吗？ 为什么我们没有去关注它？ 为什么我们没有打破那种局限， 去发现内在世界中头脑的那种非凡的能力？ 为什么？ 是不是因为我们总是在寻找安全感？ 既包括外在的安全，也包括内在的安全， 因为安全是必要的， 否则的话，头脑就无法完美地运作——对吗？
10:00 So physically, externally, we have found some kind of security - security in the family, security in the community, security in the greater community and in nationality - there have been physical, psychological security we have sought, which is an obvious fact because if we haven't had our breakfast, had no food and no clothes, we can't possibly think very, very clearly, act impersonally. So security physically is necessary and that is being denied by nationalities, nationalism, because that produces one of the causes of war - French, Russian, English, Swiss, if you will allow me, Belgian, America, India, and all that business. It is really a form of tribalism, which we all know. And psychologically, inwardly, we sought security in relationship - right? Please we are thinking together. You are not just listening to the speaker and just accepting some ideas or rejecting, but carefully observing the function of the brain, the complex thought, observing the whole process of living, both externally and inwardly. 所以身体上、外在上， 我们已经找到了某种安全感 ——家庭中的安全感，社区中的安全感， 更大社区中的安全感，然后是国家中的安全感 ——存在着那种身体上的， 和心理上的安全感，我们在寻找这些安全感， 这是显而易见的事实， 因为如果我们没有早餐吃， 没有食物，没有衣服， 我们就不可能非常非常清楚地思考，不可能客观地去行动了。 所以身体上的安全是必要的， 然而这种安全却被国籍，被民族主义所否定了， 因为它们制造出了导致战争的原因之一 ——法国人、俄国人、英国人、瑞士人，如果你们允许我提到它的话， 比利时人、美国人、印度人，所有这类东西。 它其实是某种形式的部落主义，我们都清楚这些。 而心理上、内在上， 我们会在关系中寻找安全感——不是吗？ 请注意，我们是在一起思考着。 你并不只是在听演讲者讲话， 然后仅仅接受一些理念或者拒绝它们， 而是要仔细地去观察头脑的运作， 观察那复杂的思想， 观察那整个生活的过程， 既包括外在的生活，也包括内在的生活。
12:19 We have sought security inwardly. We have created, thought has created god - would you be shocked by that? Thought has created it. Thought has put all together the various rituals, the various dogmas, beliefs, faith, rituals - this is the common factor of all religions. And thought, not finding psychological security, projected the concept of god from the ancient days, from Jupiter, Zeus and the Asiatics had their own peculiar ancient deities. Is there such security psychologically at all? You understand my question? One follows another, specially in the so-called - the speaker doesn't like that word 'spiritual' - in the so-called spiritual world one seeks security following the guru, following the various traditional concepts, Catholic, Protestant, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, and also gurus, and security in knowledge - right? In skill, in various forms of activity, consoling, disturbing, destructive but trying to find through all these means security. And the brain needs extraordinary security - right? Otherwise it can't function clearly. 我们在寻找内在的安全感。 我们已经创造出了，思想已经创造出了上帝 ——你们会对这种说法感到震惊吗？ 思想已经创造出了上帝。 思想已经拼凑出了各种宗教仪式， 各种教条、信仰、信念、典礼 ——这是所有宗教的共同的要素。 而思想，由于找不到心理上的安全， 便投射出了上帝的概念， 从古时代就开始了，从朱庇特（罗马神话中的宙斯神）到宙斯（希腊神话中的主神）， 而亚洲人也有着他们自己特定的古老神明。 究竟是否存在这种心理上的安全呢？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 我们会去跟从他人，尤其是在所谓的 ——其实演讲者并不喜欢用‘灵性’这个词—— 在所谓的‘灵性世界’中，我们会去寻找安全感， 追随古鲁，遵循各种传统观念， 天主教徒、新教徒、印度教徒、佛教徒、穆斯林， 以及那些古鲁们， 还有那种知识中的安全感——对吗？ 拥有技能的安全感，各种形式的活动中的安全感， 比如安慰、打扰和破坏， 我们试图通过所有这些手段来找到安全。 头脑需要极度的安全——不是吗？ 否则的话，它就无法清晰地运作了。
14:56 So one questions whether there is, apart from physical security which is slowly being denied and destroyed, is there psychological security at all? Right? Please let us investigate that very carefully because most of us want in our relationship some kind of stability, some kind of safety, a sense of being at home, not in the house, but inwardly of being at home, with somebody - man, woman, or with some symbol, with some concept. Or, as the Christians would have it, in faith. God knows why, what that means, but they find security in faith. And in the Asiatic world, specially in India, doubt has been one of the major tenets of their religion. That one must question the very highest authority, one must doubt. So in that doubting, questioning, probing, one asks, if one has done it very, very deeply, is there security at all? You understand my question? One must have physical security - that is understood, don't let's... and that is being destroyed through nationalism, through wars, through division. There is the peculiar thing going on called United Nations. It is a contradictory in terms, nations cannot be united, they are always separative, divisive - right? They can never be united and therefore they are always at war, getting more armaments and so on and so on, I don't have to go into all that. We all know that. And nobody seems to say, 'Let's stop all this'. The religions encourage it, this division - Catholic, Protestant, Hindu, Buddhist and all that nonsense, to me. And this division, the divisive process which is going on throughout the world is bringing about great conflict. And inwardly, too, we are divisive. We are, as human beings, broken up - right? fragmented, never whole, holistic. And if one begins to enquire more deeply, is there any security at all? One tries to find security in relationship - let's look at that word 'relationship'. 所以某人在质疑：除了身体上的安全 ——这种安全正在慢慢地被否定和摧毁—— 究竟是否还存在一种心理上的安全？ 对吗？ 请让我们非常仔细小心地去探究它， 因为我们大多数人都想要在我们的关系中拥有某种稳定性， 某种安全感 一种在家的感觉， 不是在自己家的房子里，而是内在有一种回到家的感觉， 在某人身上——男人或女人身上， 在某个象征符号中，在某个概念中找到家的感觉。 或者，就像基督教徒们所做的那样，在信仰中找到它。 天知道为什么他们要这样做？信仰又是什么意思？ 但他们在信仰中找到了安全感。 而在亚洲地区，特别是在印度， 怀疑是他们宗教最主要的信条之一。 那就是一个人必须去质疑那个最高的权威本身， 一个人必须去怀疑。 所以就在那种怀疑、质疑和追根究底的过程中， 一个人会问——如果他已经非常非常深入地做了这件事情—— 究竟是否存在安全感？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 我们必须要有身体上的安全——这是好理解的，我们就不要再 然而这种安全却正在被国家主义， 被战争、被分裂所摧毁。 有一个很奇特的东西正在运作着，它被称为‘联合国’。 这是一个自相矛盾的词语， 因为国家是无法联合起来的， 国家永远都是彼此分离，彼此割裂的——不是吗？ 它们永远无法被团结起来，因此它们总是在打仗， 准备着更多的军事武器，等等这些， 我不需要再深入所有这些了。我们都清楚这些事。 然而，似乎没有人说，‘让我们停止这一切吧’。 宗教在鼓励它，鼓励着这种分裂 ——天主教徒、新教徒、印度教徒、佛教徒， 所有这些在我看来荒谬至极的东西。 而这种割裂，这种正在全世界 发生着的分裂的过程 带来了巨大的冲突。 而我们内在同样也是分裂的。 我们作为人类，是支离破碎的——不是吗？ 我们是分裂的，从来不是完整的、整体的。 而如果我们开始更深入地去探询的话， 究竟是否存在安全感这个东西？ 我们试图在关系中找到安全感 ——让我们来看一下‘关系’这个词吧。
19:11 What is relationship? To be related to, to have - to be in contact with, to have a communication with another so complete that there is no divisive process going on - you understand? What is this relationship which brings, as it is observed with almost everyone all throughout the world, it is a constant conflict. Would I be right in saying that to the married people and the unmarried people? I am glad - the speaker is glad we all agree about that at least! 什么是关系？ 那就是与某事物相关联，与某事物接触， 与另一个人有如此彻底完全的交流， 以至于没有任何分裂的过程发生 ——你明白了吗？ 这种关系到底是什么，它带来了， 全世界几乎每一个人都能观察到 它是一种持续不断的冲突。 我这种说法 对于已婚人士和未婚人士来说是否正确？ 我很高兴——演讲者很高兴至少我们都同意这一点！
20:25 And why is there this division? The brain is seeking security and yet that very brain is creating division - you follow? Is it thought? Is thought creating the division in relationship? Right? 那么为什么会有这种分裂呢？ 头脑在寻找安全感， 然而也正是这个头脑它制造出了分裂——你明白了吗？ 是不是思想所造成的？ 是不是思想制造出了关系中的分裂？ 对吗？
21:00 Then we have to enquire very deeply into what is thought. Some of you may have heard the speaker explaining the movement of thought, the origin of thought, but if they would kindly put aside what they have heard the speaker say perhaps a thousand times before and start anew... What is the origin of thought? Thought has created the most marvellous world technologically - right? The incredible things thought has done in the world of medicine, surgery, in homeopathy - all right? - in producing instruments of war, and so on, the computer. We will talk about the computer a little later. Great fun, that! 那么我们就必须非常深入地去探询一下什么是思想？ 你们中一些人也许曾经听过 演讲者解释思想的运动，以及思想的源头， 但如果他们可以把自己所听到过的东西 ——这些东西演讲者或许讲了有上千遍了——放在一边，然后重新开始的话 那么思想的源头是什么？ 思想已经在科学技术上创造出了一个无比惊人的世界 ——不是吗？ 思想在各个领域做出了那些难以置信的事情： 在药物领域、外科手术领域、顺势疗法领域——对吧？ 在制造战争工具上，等等，还有电脑。 我们待会儿会来谈论电脑。 这玩意儿很有趣！
22:19 And thought has also created a division between you and me, my wife and me - follow? - this whole process of division is going on throughout life. Is thought the cause of it? Please look at it carefully. Let's find out. If thought is the cause of this divisive process then we will have to ask a question which is much more serious: whether thought can ever function in one area completely, in the physical world, in the daily world, but completely end in the psychological world? Vous avez compris? You understand what I am saying? We are going to find out. Let's go slowly. 而思想同样也制造出了 你我之间的分别，我的妻子和我——你明白了吗？ 这整个分裂的过程贯穿于我们的一生。 是思想导致了它吗？ 请仔细地去看一下它。让我们去把它搞清楚。 如果是思想导致了这种分裂的过程， 那么我们就必须要问一个更为严肃认真的问题： 那就是思想能否一直在某个领域中充分完全地运作 ——在物质世界中，在日常生活的世界中， 而在心理、精神的世界中则完全停止运作？ 你明白了吗？（法语）你们理解我在说的东西吗？ 我们将要来发现它。让我们慢慢来。
23:32 Thought is functioning when I learn a language, when I learn, when one learns various skills, when one skis - right? - constructing various ships - thought is very active there. And thought also is psychologically very active - right? And we are asking: is thought - please listen, pay attention to this, if you will, if you are not too tired - is thought the origin of this divisive process? Christian God, the Hindu God, the Muslim God and so on and so on. God must be one god - right? - to be at all god. But thought has divided the poor chap! 思想何时会运作：当我在学习一门语言时， 当我在学习，当某人在学习各种技能的时候， 当一个人在滑雪的时候——对吗？—— 建造各种轮船时——思想在这些时候非常活跃。 而思想同样也在心理领域异常活跃——对吗？ 而我们在问：思想是不是—— 请听好，请注意这一点 ——如果你可以的话，如果你还没有太疲惫的话—— 思想是不是这种分裂过程的源头？ 基督教的上帝，印度教的上帝，穆斯林的上帝， 等等等等。 上帝必定只有一个——对吗？——如果真的有上帝的话。 但是思想已经割裂了他——这个可怜的小伙子！
24:54 So let's enquire very carefully: what is thought? Why thought plays such an extraordinary part in our life? And what is thinking? - which is the same as thought. What is thinking? If there is no memory, you wouldn't - one would not be able to think. Clear? That would be a state of amnesia. So if memory is necessary for thought... [Noise of aeroplanes] It is a small country! Thought is the response of memory and memory is the outcome of accumulated knowledge - right? Knowledge is gathered through experience - right? That knowledge in the scientific world is gathered bit by bit or through jumps - right? Constantly accumulated. That knowledge is based on experience. And is experience - please go into it carefully together - is experience limited? Right? Can there be ever complete experience? What does that word 'experience' mean? I am just thinking it out loud. To experience: if you are driving a car, if one is driving a car and there is an accident, that is an experience. From that experience you have learnt, one has learnt to be more watchful, much more to observe all the roads, 300 yards ahead and so on. Now we are asking: is experience limited? And who is the experiencer who is experiencing? Right? Lord! [Noise of aeroplanes] 所以让我们非常认真仔细地去探询一下：什么是思想？ 为什么思想在我们的生活中扮演了如此非凡重要的角色？ 而思考又是什么？——思考和思想其实是一样的。 什么是思考？ 要是没有记忆，你就无法——一个人就无法去思考了。 清楚了吗？ 那将会是一种失忆症的状态。 因此，记忆是否是思想所必需的 （飞机的噪音） 这是一个很小的国家！ 思想就是记忆的反应， 而记忆就是积累下来的知识的产物——对吗？ 人们通过经验收集了知识——对吧？ 科学领域的知识 是一点点地收集起来的或者是短时间内暴增的——对吗？ 持续不断地积累起来。 那种知识是建立在经验之上的。 而经验——请让我们一起小心地来深入它—— 经验是局限的吗？ 对吗？ 可能存在完整完全的经验吗？ ‘经验’这个词是什么意思？ 我在仔细思考它，并把这种思考大声说出来。 经验：如果你在驾驶一辆汽车， 如果一个人在驾驶汽车，然后遇到了一场事故， 这就是一种经验。 从那种经验中，你学到了， 某人学到了以后开车要更加小心， 多看看周围的路，提前看到300码之外的路等等。 而现在，我们在问：经验是否是局限的？ 而那个在经验的经验者又是谁？对吗？ 天啊！（飞机的噪音）
29:45 This is rather important to ask this question. We all want to experience, when you are young - sexual experience, as you get older - religious experiences, and ultimately the experience of illumination, or whatever you like to call it. Now who is the experiencer who is experiencing? Right? You follow the question? One works, practises, certain forms of so-called meditation, which are not meditation but we will go into that later on, practises it, day after day, day after day. And he is experiencing in that process certain imaginative states, or some illusions. And there is an experiencer who is experiencing. Now who is the experiencer? Is the experiencer different from the experience he is going to have? You have understood my question? I want to - if one wants - I will keep to myself - if I want to experience God or that state of holiness - please I am not belittling it, I am not being cynical - that god, that illumination, that concept of illumination, thought has projected it - right? And I want to experience that which thought has put forward. See what is happening? I project something, and then experience that something. Right? Is this clear? That is, I project some imaginary deity and I work, practise to achieve or experience that state of deity which thought has invented. So I must be very clear who is the experiencer? Right? Surely the experiencer is all the accumulated memories - right? Accumulated knowledge, and when he experiences something either he must recognise it or it is no experience. If he recognises, he already knows - you understand all this? So thus experience becomes very, very limited - right? In the scientific world knowledge is added bit by bit, bit by bit - right? Or during the last hundred years it has jumped. But it is still limited. Therefore there can never be complete experience because the experience is always limited. Clear? Do we understand? Not verbal explanation but the fact, the truth of it. That is, the experiencer is the past, and that experiencer when he has experience of any kind must recognise it as something which he is experiencing, which means he already knows that which has happened before - right? So experience is always limited, whether the experience of God, or the experience of particular Christian deity or symbol or person, or in the Asiatic world with their deities. Any kind of experience, scientific, psychological, must always be limited. That is clear. Therefore knowledge is always limited, whether now or in the future - right? If you observe it, it is so clear. So thought and memory are limited. So thought being limited must be divisive. Anything that is limited must be separative - right? 问一下这个问题是相当重要的。 我们都想要拥有一些经验， 当你年轻的时候——你渴望性体验， 当你年纪变大了——你会渴望宗教体验， 而到了最后，你会渴望那种开悟的经验， 或者无论你喜欢把它叫做什么。 那么，那个在经历体验的经验者是谁？对吗？ 你明白这个问题吗？ 某人在从事、练习某些形式的所谓的‘冥想’ ——虽然它们并不是冥想，我们稍后将会来探讨它的， 某人日复一日，每天练习它。 在那个过程中，他经历体验到了 某些想象的状态，或者某些幻觉。 存在着一个正在经历体验的经验者。 那么，这个经验者是谁呢？ 经验者和他将会拥有的经验是不同的吗？ 你们明白我的问题了吗？ 我想要体验——如果某人想要——我还是用‘我自己’吧—— 如果我想要体验上帝 或者那种神圣的状态 ——请注意，我并不是在贬低这件事，我也不是在冷嘲热讽—— 那种上帝，那种开悟，那个开悟的概念， 它们是思想投射出来的——不是吗？ 而我想要经历体验那个思想弄出来的东西。 看到发生了什么吗？ 我投射出了某个东西，然后再去经验那个东西。 对吗？这一点清楚了吗？ 也就是说，我投射出了某些虚构想象的神明， 然后我努力、我练习，去达到 或经历这种思想所发明出来的神性的状态。 因此我必须非常清楚谁才是经验者？ 对吗？ 毫无疑问，经验者就是所有那些积累起来的记忆——不是吗？ 积累起来的知识， 而当一个人经验某个事物的时候， 他必定是能够识别这种经验的，否则的话就没有经验了。 而要是他能识别这种经验，那就说明他早已知道它了 ——你理解这一切了吗？ 由此，经验就变得非常非常有限了——不是吗？ 在科学领域 知识是一点一点地增加上去的，一点点地增加——对吧？ 或者说在过去的一百年里，它有了飞跃式的增长。 但它仍旧是有限的。 因此，永远不可能会有完整完全的经验， 因为经验永远都是局限的。 清楚了吗？我们理解它了吗？ 不是口头上的解释，而是事实，它的真相。 也就是说，经验者就是过去， 而那个经验者，当他有了任何一种经验后， 必定会把他正在经验的东西识别为某个事物， 这意味着他早已知道这个以前曾经发生过的东西了——对吗？ 因此经验永远都是有限的， 不管是达到上帝的经验， 还是某个特定的基督教神明、符号或人物的经验， 还是在亚洲地区的人们的那些神明。 任何一种经验，不管是科学上的还是心理上的， 都必定永远是局限的。这是很清楚的事。 因此知识永远都是局限的， 不管是现在的知识还是未来的知识——对吗？ 如果你观察一下它的话，这是显而易见的。 因此思想和记忆是局限的。 所以局限的思想必定是分裂的。 任何局限之物也必定是具有分离性的——不是吗？
35:47 If I am thinking about myself, my progress, my ambition, my achievement, how marvellous I am, or how stupid I am, and so on, thinking about myself is a very small affair. But that small affair can be extended, I say, 'I am thinking about universal', it is still limited - right? So thought, whatever it does in any field, both in the technological world or in the psychological world, must be limited, therefore its action will always be limited - right? It becomes rather... 如果我总是在想着我自己，我的进步、我的野心、 我的成就，我是多么的了不起， 或者我是多么的愚蠢，等等， 只想着自己，这就是一件非常卑微琐碎之事。 但是这件卑微琐碎之事是可以扩展的， 我说，‘我在想着宇宙万物’， 但它仍旧是局限的——对吗？ 所以思想，无论它在任何领域做了任何事情 ——不管是在科技的领域，还是在心理的领域—— 都必定是局限的， 因此它的行动也永远都是有限的——对吧？ 它是相当
36:41 So what is the relationship of thought to time? Right? Are you asking this question? I am asking it. We said time is the past, the future and the present contained in the now. Right? Is that clear? Thought and time is the past, past memories, past knowledge, past experiences, stored up in the brain as memory, and the future is projected from that memory and that future is now - right? Is that clear? No, I am afraid not. 那么，思想和时间的关系是什么呢？ 对吗？ 你在问这个问题吗？我正在问它。 我们说时间就是过去、未来和现在， 它包含在此刻之中。 对吧？ 这一点清楚了吗？ 思想和时间就是过去， 过去的记忆、过去的知识、过去的经验， 它们作为记忆而储藏在大脑中， 而这种记忆投射出了未来， 而那种未来就是此刻——不是吗？ 这一点清楚了吗？不，我恐怕你并不清楚。
37:48 We are the result of the past. Right? Obviously. Both biologically, through long period of evolution and psychologically - all the accumulated memories we have. Right? So the past are the memories - right? And the future is projected from the past memory. So the future is already the past because it is part of the past. The future is part of the past. Right? Clear? No? 我们是过去的产物。 对吧？这是显而易见的。 不管是生物学上——经过漫长时期的进化过程， 还是心理学上—— 所有那些我们所拥有的积累起来的记忆。 对吗？ 因此过去就是那些记忆——不是吗？ 而那些过去的记忆投射出了未来。 因此那个未来已经是过去了，因为它是过去的一部分。 未来是过去的一部分。 对吗？清楚了吗？还是不清楚？
38:52 Look, sir, make it much more simple. I am all my memories - right? I am all my memories, I am memory. Even if I say I am god, inwardly there is something, it is still memory. So my whole being is memory. I know you will refute it, or not agree with it, but see the fact: if you have no memory, you are not. Right? So you are a whole bundle of memories. And that memory, those memories project the future. 'I must be', 'I must not be', 'I mustn't be violent'. So it is a movement of the past towards the future. But that future is the present. I can't go on with this - right? 你瞧，先生，让我把它说得更简单一点吧。 我就是我所有的记忆——对吧？ 我就是我全部的记忆，我就是记忆。 即使我说我是上帝，我的内在有着某个东西， 这些仍旧是记忆。 因此我的整个存在就是记忆。 我知道你会驳斥它，或者不同意它， 但是请看到这个事实： 如果你没有记忆的话，你就不存在了。 不是吗？ 所以你就是那一大堆的记忆。 而这种记忆，这些记忆投射出了未来。 ‘我必须怎样’，‘我必须不能怎样’，‘我必须不能暴力’。 因此它是一种从过去转移到未来的运动。 但是那个未来就是此刻。 我不能再继续讲这个了——对吧？
40:20 So the present, the now, contains all time. Now what is the relationship of thought to time? You understand? It is necessary to use our brains, not just go to sleep and somebody tell you all about it. We are both of us acting, exercising the capacity of our brain. And we are asking a question, we have explained very carefully to each other, what time is; the whole movement of time is in the now. And we have also explained the nature of thought. What is the relationship of thought to time? Are they not both the same? So thought is time. Which is, I need time to have knowledge, experience. So time and thought are together, they are not separate movements - right? Do we see this as a fact? Not as an idea explained by some person. Do we see it as a fact? Not make an abstraction of what you have - from the fact into an idea and pursue the idea. Vous avez compris? Are we putting too much in one talk? Tant pis. Because it is important to understand this. Is time separate from thought? Or thought is time? Of course it is. So see what happens. If thought is time, and thought is now, if thought is time and we said thought is time - right? - then what is relationship? You understand? What is one's relationship with another? We will approach it differently. We live, life is relationship. Without relationship there is no life. Relationship to the earth, to the water, to everything, to nature, to all the things of the earth, we are related to it. And we are related much more intimately with a woman or a man. And in that relationship there is conflict - right? The man pursues his ambition, he pursues his fulfilment, sexually and in other ways, and the woman does the same - right? They perhaps meet sexually but all the time separate. What has brought about this separation? We are saying thought - right? That's clear. So please follow this carefully, we said thought is time and this division between man and woman and so on is brought about by thought, not love. 因此，此刻、现在，就包含了全部的时间。 那么，思想和时间是什么关系？ 你明白吗？ 我们必须使用自己的大脑， 不要只是昏昏欲睡，然后让某人来告诉你一切。 我们双方都在行动， 在运用我们大脑的能力。 我们正在问一个问题， 我们已经非常认真仔细地向对方解释过了 什么是时间， 时间的全部运动就在此刻之中。 而我们同样也解释过了思想的本质。 思想和时间的关系是什么？ 它们两个是不是一样的东西？ 所以思想就是时间。 也就是说，我需要时间来获得知识和经验。 所以时间和思想是一体的， 它们并不是分离独立的运动——对吗？ 我们是否看到了它是一个事实？ 它并不是一个某人所解释的理念。 我们是否看到它是一个事实？ 不是把你所拥有的东西抽象化 ——把事实抽象为一个理念，然后再去追求那个理念。 你明白了吗？（法语） 我们是不是在一次演讲中讲太多东西了？ 真是糟糕。（法语） 因为了解这一点是非常重要的。 时间与思想是分离的吗？ 还是说思想就是时间？毫无疑问它就是时间。 所以，看看会发生什么。 如果思想就是时间，那么思想就是此刻， 如果思想就是时间 而我们说过了，思想就是时间——对吗？ 那么关系又是什么呢？ 你明白了吗？ 某人与别人关系是什么呢？ 我们将会从另一个角度来探讨它。 我们活着，生活就是关系。 没有关系，就没有生活。 和地球的关系，和水的关系， 和万物的关系，和自然的关系， 和地球上一切事物的关系， 我们和它们是联系在一起的。 而我们在男女关系中则会有更加亲密的联系。 然而在那种关系中存在着冲突——不是吗？ 男人在追求他的野心， 他在追求着自身的满足，性方面和其他方面的满足， 而女人也在做着同样的事情——对吗？ 他们也许有性方面的接触，但他们一直都是彼此分离的。 是什么造成了这种分离？ 我们说是思想——对吗？这是显而易见的。 所以请认真仔细地跟上我， 我们说思想就是时间， 而那种男女关系等等之中的分裂， 它是思想所造成的，而不是爱。
45:52 So one has to go into the question - there is so much - into the question: What is love? Is love time? Go into it. Find out sirs, don't... Is love time? 所以我们就必须要来探讨一下这个问题 ——要谈的东西太多了——这个问题就是： 什么是爱？ 爱是时间吗？请探究这一点。 先生们，去发现它，不要……爱是时间吗？
46:17 Is love thought? When you say to someone, 'I love you', and I hope you mean it, is that love the expression, or the outcome of your self-fulfilment, whether it is sexual or otherwise - right? So why is there then this division? I won't go further into the question of love - if you want, I'll go into it now. Good Lord, it is already twenty past eleven. All right, sirs, let's go into it. Is love thought, the movement of thought? You understand? Which means: is love the product of time? Please carefully watch it in yourself. Or is love pleasure? Pleasure has become extraordinarily important in life the whole industry of entertainment, sports, religious entertainment - right? Churches, you know, you go there to be entertained, to have new kind of sensations. So is love thought, time, pleasure, and is love desire? Has love a place - no, has thought a place in love? Go on. If thought has a place in love, then that love is limited. And that which is limited must create conflict - right? This is logical, sanity. 爱是思想吗？ 当你对某人说，‘我爱你’的时候， 我希望你是认真的， 那种爱是否只是 你自我满足的表达或产物？ 不管它是性方面还是其他方面的满足——不是吗？ 所以，为什么会有这种分裂？ 我不想再深入关于爱的问题 ——但如果你们想要的话，我现在就来探讨它。 天哪，现在已经11点20分了。 好吧，先生们，让我们来探讨它。 爱是思想吗？它是思想的活动吗？ 你理解了吗？ 这意味着：爱是否是时间的产物？ 请认真仔细地在自己身上观察这一点。 或者说，爱是快感吗？ 快感已经变成了生活中无比重要的东西， 我们有着整个娱乐产业，那些体育运动比赛， 还有宗教娱乐——不是吗？ 那些教堂，你知道的，你会去那里找一些乐子， 去获得一些新的感官刺激。 所以爱是思想吗？是时间吗？是快感吗？ 爱是欲望吗？ 爱是否占有一席之地—— 说错了，思想是否在爱之中占有一席之地？ 继续探索下去吧。 如果思想在爱之中占有一席之地， 那么那种爱就是局限的。 而局限之物必然会制造出冲突——对吗？ 这是合乎逻辑的、合乎情理的。
49:06 So is it possible to have that perfume, that extraordinary thing called love, which is a great flame in one's life without all this travail, without all this division? You understand? That means one has to understand very, very deeply, or perceive instantly the nature of thought, time, pleasure and desire. Right? They are all interrelated, they are not separate things. Thought, time, pleasure, desire are one, they are interrelated - right? 所以我们是否可能拥有 那种被称为‘爱’的芬芳，和非凡之物？ 它是我们生活中的伟大火焰， 没有所有那些辛劳痛苦， 也没有所有那些分裂。 你理解了吗？ 那意味着我们必须非常非常深入地了解， 或者立即洞察到思想、 时间、快感和欲望的本质。 对吗？ 它们都是相互关联的，它们并不是彼此分离的。 思想、时间、快感、欲望是一个东西， 它们是彼此联系在一起的——对吗？
50:22 So to capture that perfume for it to abide all one's life without any division one must understand desire. Right? Desire for most of us is extraordinarily important. Desire for God, desire for a new house, desire for somebody with whom you can get on better, desire for more wealth, desire for greater peace - you know, desire, that which is burning in all of us, furiously. Desire has been very prominent in our lives. Like thought. And various religions have said, 'Suppress desire'. When you enter a monastery - have you ever been in a monastery, any of you? I was in one - the speaker was in one, it doesn't matter. There, in the monasteries, and in the monks who are wandering the earth without any organisation, they have desire. And desire being a dangerous thing, they say, 'Don't look at a woman, only be committed to god' or whatever it is you are committed to. And man has always tried to suppress, control, shape desire. Right? You desire when one is young for some silly little thing, then as you grow older you desire for position, power, money, status. As you also grow much older then you desire for some peace, then you desire for immortality if there is such a thing, then you desire to escape from the fear, the darkness of death. From the beginning of life until the end of life one is tortured by desire, with its pleasures too - right? And as we said, is love desire? Is love pleasure? Pleasure is in the fulfilment of one's desire. I desire a car. When I get it I am happy, I am satisfied. Not quite because I want a bigger car! And so on. Desire in its fulfilment brings satisfaction, from that satisfaction, gratification, there is a great sense of pleasure - right? And we have done everything conceivable either to express fully our desires, which is called freedom, or go to the other extreme, suppress desire. This has been the constant movement of man. Both in the so-called spiritual world and in the world of... in the exterior world. The expansion and the contraction of desire. And now we are trying to find out what is the origin, the beginning of desire. We are not saying we must suppress or fulfil. We are trying - not trying, we are observing the whole movement of desire from the very beginning to the very end - right? What is desire? [Noise of train] 所以，要捕捉到那种芬芳 ——为了让那种芬芳贯穿于我们的一生，而没有任何分裂—— 我们就必须了解欲望。 对吧？ 对我们大多数人来说，欲望是无比重要的东西。 渴望上帝，渴望一套新的房子， 渴望一个你能够与之相处得更好的人， 渴望更多的财富，渴望更巨大的平静 ——你知道的，这些欲望， 它们在我们所有人内心燃烧着，熊熊燃烧着。 欲望在我们的生活中一直占据非常显著的位置。 就像思想一样。 而各种宗教都会说， ‘压制欲望’。 当你进入一家寺院时—— 你们曾经在寺院里待过吗？你们中有人待过吗？ 我曾经在一家寺院里待过——演讲者曾经在一家寺院里待过， 无所谓了。 在那里，在寺院里， 在那些没有任何组织，云游四方的僧侣身上， 有着欲望。 而欲望变成了一个非常危险的东西， 他们说，‘不要去看女人， 只献身于神’或者无论你是献身于什么东西。 人类总是试图压抑、控制和改造欲望。 不是吗？ 当你年轻的时候，你会渴望一些幼稚的小玩意儿， 然后当你年纪大了一点之后，你会渴望地位、权力、金钱、身份。 而当你变得更老了以后，你就会渴望有一些平静， 然后你会渴望永恒不朽——如果存在这种东西的话， 然后你又会渴望逃离恐惧，逃脱死亡的阴影。 从我们一出生起直到生命结束， 我们都被欲望痛苦折磨着，也获得了它的快感——不是吗？ 而就如我们问过的，爱是欲望吗？ 爱是快感吗？ 快感存在于我们欲望的满足之中。 我想要一辆汽车。 当我得到了那辆车后，我很快乐。我得到了满足。 但没有完全满足，因为我还想要一辆更大的汽车！ 等等这类事情。 欲望的满足带来了满意感， 从这种满意感和心满意足之中 就产生出了强烈的快感——对吧？ 而我们已经做了一切想得到的事情， 要么充分完全地去表达自己的欲望 ——这被称为‘自由’， 要么就是走向另一个极端，去压制那些欲望。 这就是人类一直以来持续不断的活动。 不管是在所谓的灵性世界的领域里， 还是在外部世界的领域中。 我们有着那种欲望的扩张，或者欲望的缩减。 而现在，我们试着去发现 那个源头是什么？欲望的起源是什么？ 我们并没有说我们必须要压制欲望或满足欲望。 我们在试图——不是试图， 我们正在观察欲望的全部运动 从它的开始一直到它的结束——对吗？ 什么是欲望？（火车的噪音）
56:31 I hear that train going by and I want to listen to what you are saying. I desire for that train to move quickly, not make all that row - right? That is, the hearing of the noise, the sensation from that noise, then from that sensation the desire saying, 'Please I wish that train wouldn't go by so often'. There it is! [Noise of train] The hearing is a sensation, pleasant or unpleasant. And if it is pleasant, I want to hold it, if it is unpleasant, I want to push it away. But it is still sensation. Right? And that sensation is necessary, otherwise I am deaf, dumb. So there is sensation, then thought comes in and says, 'I wish the train wouldn't pass so often' - you understand? Sensation, which is normal, healthy, natural. Then thought makes the image and says, 'I wish it didn't happen' or wants it to happen. So when thought shapes or controls or gives an intention to sensation, then at that moment desire is born. Is that clear? Are we clear on this matter? That is, sir, if you are a man, you see a woman, that you know very well, or if you see somebody in great power, position, status, you see him. And the sensation is there, seeing is a sensation. Then thought comes and says, 'I wish I had that power, that position' - right? When thought gives shape through the image to the sensation, then at that moment desire is born - clear? 我听到这列火车经过， 而我想要聆听你正在说的东西。 我想要这列火车快点过去， 不再发出所有那些吵闹声——对吗？ 也就是，我听到了那个噪音， 那种噪音引发了我的感官感受， 然后因为那种感官感觉，欲望说， ‘求你了，我希望火车不要如此频繁地经过这里’。 你看又来了！（火车的噪音） 听到声音就是一种感官感觉， 它可能是令人愉悦的，可能是不愉悦的。 如果它是令人愉悦的，我就会想要紧紧抓住它， 要是它令人不快，我就会想要把它推开。 但它仍旧是感官感受。 对吧？ 这种感官感觉是必需的， 否则的话我就是一个聋子或哑巴了。 所以我们会有感官感觉， 然后思想介入进来了，它说， ‘我希望火车不要如此频繁地经过这里’ ——你明白了吗？ 感官感觉是很正常、健康、自然的东西。 然后思想制造出了某种意象，说，‘我希望没有发生过这事儿’， 或者想要这件事发生。 所以，当思想改造、控制感官感觉，或者为那个感觉赋予了某种意图后， 在那一刻，欲望就产生了。 清楚了吗？ 我们清楚这一点了吗？ 换句话说，先生，如果你是一个男人，当你看到一个女人时， 这种事情你们肯定都心知肚明了。 或者如果你看到了某个人，他很有权势，有地位，有身份， 你看到了他。 你有了那种感官感受，看到就是一种感官感受。 然后思想进来了，它说， ‘我希望我也那么有权有势，有那样的地位’——对吗？ 当思想通过意象而改造了感官感觉后， 在那一刻，欲望就诞生了——明白了吗？
59:51 Now sensation, as we said, is normal, healthy, natural, unless one is paralysed, deaf, dumb and no reaction at all. Now that is normal. Then thought comes instantly, gives a shape to that sensation, at that moment - desire. Now can - please watch this - can sensation and thought, can thought be slow and not capture the sensation? You understand my question? You understand? No. God! The speaker is working and you are not. 你瞧，就像我们所说的，感官感觉是正常、健康和自然的东西 ——除非一个人瘫痪了、聋了、哑巴了，或者完全没有反应了。 所以，它是很正常的东西。 然后思想立即就出现了， 它改造了那种感官感觉， 而在那一刻，就有了欲望。 那么是否——请注意看—— 感官感觉和思想是否可以 思想能否慢一点，不去捕获那个感官感觉呢？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 你理解吗？不理解。天哪！ 演讲者正在努力工作，而你并没有。
1:00:59 Sir, I go to a museum, which I have done rarely because the museum of the woods is much more beautiful, the mountains, than any museum in the world. You go to a museum and see a picture, a marvellous picture, and you see the beauty of it, then thought says, 'By Jove, I wish I had it. I'd like it in my room where there is some space. I'd like to hang it there and look at it every day'. The seeing of that picture is normal but when thought enters into it desire is born to possess it. Now can the sensation and thought be kept apart for a while? You understand my question? There you need tremendous alertness - right? Keep these apart. Which means alertness has its own great discipline. Not the discipline of conformity, of obedience, of following, practising, but that seeing sensation is necessary, is normal, and desire is the movement of thought. To keep these two apart. If you do it, you will see how extraordinarily quick thought is. The instant you see thought is there. So to be so tremendously alert so thought and sensation are kept apart, then there is neither suppression nor fulfilment, there is only that alertness. And that alertness, that watchfulness, the intensity of it, is its own discipline. You understand? The word 'discipline' means - it comes from the word 'disciple'. The disciple is one who learns. Learns, not learns what the master is saying but is learning. I wonder if you understand that? 先生，我去了一个博物馆 ——我很少去博物馆， 因为森林这个‘博物馆’，那些大山， 它们比世界上任何博物馆都更加美丽。 你去了博物馆，然后看到了一幅画， 一幅无比美丽的画， 你看到了它的美， 然后思想就说了，‘天啊，我希望我能拥有这幅画。 我想把它放在我的房间里，我房间里还有一些空的地方。 我想把它挂在那里，然后每天都能欣赏它’。 你看到了那幅画，这是很正常的， 但是当思想介入进来，你就会产生想要拥有它的欲望。 那么，感官感觉和思想可以先暂时分开一段时间吗？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 在这件事上，你需要有极度的警觉 ——不是吗？ 把它们两个分开。 这意味着那种警觉有着其自身的强大纪律。 不是那种遵从的纪律， 不是那种服从、跟随、练习的纪律， 而是说，那种视觉上的感受，它是必需的，是正常的， 而欲望则是思想的运动。 你要将这两者分开。 如果你这么做了，你就会看到 思想是多么的快速。 就在那个瞬间，你会发现思想已经在那儿了。 所以你要保持高度的警觉， 由此思想和感官感觉才会分开， 那时，就既不会有压抑，也不会有满足了， 那时只存在那种警觉性。 而那种警觉，那种警惕， 那种警觉的强度，就是它自身的纪律。 你理解了吗？ ‘纪律（discipline）’这个词的意思就是——它来自于‘学徒（disciple）’这个词。 学徒就是指那个在学习的人。 学习，不是学习师父所说的东西，而是他在学习着。 我不知道你们是否明白了这一点？
1:04:00 We consider learning - do you want to go into all this? I'll go on, it's up to you. Learning is an extraordinary faculty. Not the accumulation of knowledge only - you understand? You go to school, college, university, if you are... or in a factory, there you are accumulating knowledge. And also you are accumulating knowledge about yourself. When you say, 'I am memory', you have learnt that and you repeat that. Right? But learning is something totally different. There is never a moment where you are stuck, so always moving. That makes the brain extraordinarily active. Knowledge may be the most destructive thing in relationship. You are getting this? Because where there is knowledge - 'I know my wife' - what a terrible thing to say. When you say that, which means you have come to a conclusion, you have built an image about her, and she has built an image about you, naturally, and when you say, 'I know my wife', that knowledge becomes the dividing factor between you and your wife. So that evokes a very fundamental question. 我们把学习视为是 你们想要来探讨这一切吗？ 我会继续讲下去，你们自己看着办吧。 学习是一种非凡的能力。 学习不只是积累知识 ——你理解了吗？ 你去学校，去某个学院或大学， 如果你有……或者你在一个工厂里， 你会在那里积累知识。 而你同样也在积累着关于你自己的知识。 当你说，‘我就是记忆’， 你只是学会了这个说法，然后再重复它。对吗？ 但是学习是某种截然不同的东西。 在其中你永远不会遇到阻滞的时刻， 所以你总是在运动着。 这让头脑变得极其活跃。 知识也许是关系中最具破坏性的东西。 你们领会这一点了吗？ 因为当有了知识 ——‘我熟知我的妻子’——这是多么可怕的话。 当你说这话时，这意味着你已经有了一个结论， 你已经建立起了一个关于她的形象， 而她也建立起了一个关于你的形象，这是很自然的事， 而当你说，‘我熟知我的妻子’时， 那种知识就变成了一种造成 你和你妻子之间分裂的因素。 因此这就引出了一个最根本性的问题。
1:06:26 The brain has the function to record everything - right? To record. You are sitting there, the speaker is sitting up here, only for convenience, not for authority. The platform doesn't give him authority. I must tell you a story, rather amusing. We were in India, in Bombay. Some disciples of a guru came to see us and said, 'You must meet him, he is an extraordinary man. He has achieved. He wants you to come to him. We urge you to come to him'. I said, 'I am so sorry, I don't go out chasing gurus'. I was more polite. And after three or four days they persuaded the guru to come. And we happened to be sitting on a mattress about two inches thick, not fifty centimetres, or less than that, and when he came in we got up naturally, and offered him the mattress. He sat down there, took a position cross-legged and became the authority because of that little height! You understand? That's life. 大脑有着记录一切事物的功能——对吧？ 它会去记录。 你们坐在那里，而演讲者端坐在这里。 这只是出于方便考虑，而不是因为谁是权威。 这个讲台并没有赋予他任何权威性。 我一定要和你们讲讲这个故事，它非常有趣。 有一次我们在印度，在印度的孟买。 有几位某古鲁的弟子过来见我们， 他们说，‘你一定要去见见我们的古鲁，他是一个非凡之人。 他已经达到了圆满境界。 他想要你去拜访他。我们恳请你去见见他’。 我说，‘我很抱歉，我不会出去追随那些古鲁’。 我当时比现在更有礼貌。 然后，在过了三四天以后，他们说服了那位古鲁过来见我。 而我们当时恰好坐在一张大约两英寸厚的垫子上， 那并不是50公分或更小一点的高度差距， 当他进来的时候，我们都站起来了，这是很自然的， 然后我们把自己的垫子给了他。 他在垫子上坐了下来，他盘腿而坐， 然后他就变成了权威，因为他的位置比我们高那么一点点！ 你们理解了吗？ 这就是生活。
1:08:18 So, as we were saying, knowledge in relationship is really a most dangerous factor which destroys relationship. You build an image about her and she builds an image about you. And when you have that image, and she has that image, she knows - 'I know my husband' and you repeat too, 'I know my wife'. So can one - please follow this - can one live without creating a single image in relationship? To find that out, whether it is possible or not, one must enquire much more deeply into this whole process of recording. You understand? The brain is recording. The brain now, if you are listening, is recording what is being said. And in relationship the recording process goes on. She tells me, 'You are a fool' one day. Right? And that is recorded. And that has left an imprint on - that has hurt me. Or one day, she says, 'You have been marvellous, old chap' - you know, 'Darling you have been extraordinarily nice to me yesterday'. That is recorded. Right? So our brain both outwardly and inwardly is recording. The question then is: is it possible to record physically certain things - you understand? - but not to record a thing psychologically? That is, when one's wife says you are a beastly man, not to record it. And when she says you have been awfully kind to me yesterday, or you have given me such pleasure, not to record. You follow? So that the brain is recording when necessary, physically, in daily life, and inwardly, psychologically, never to record. Yes, sir! That recording is knowledge. That recording is the image that separates you and me, and they and we, she and me, or me and him. You understand? Now can that recording never take place in relationship? 所以，就如我们之前所说的， 关系中的知识实际上是一个极其危险的因素， 它摧毁了关系。 你建立起了一个关于她的形象，而她也建立起了一个关于你的形象。 而当你持有那个形象时，她也持有关于你的形象， 她清楚地知道——‘我熟悉我的丈夫’， 而你也会重复这样的话，‘我熟悉我的妻子’。 所以我们能否——请跟上它—— 我们能否在生活中，不要制造出关系中的形象？ 要搞清楚这一点，要发现它是否可能， 我们就必须更加深入地探询 那整个记录的过程。 你明白了吗？头脑在不断记录着。 如果你正在聆听，那么此刻，你的头脑就在记录着我所说的话。 而在关系之中，这种记录的过程也在进行着。 有一天，她对我说，‘你是一个傻瓜’。对吗？ 然后那就被记录下来了。 然后它留下了一个印记，它伤害了我。 或者有一天她说， ‘老伙计，你真是一个了不起的人，’ ——你知道的，‘亲爱的，你昨天 对我真的太好了’。 这被记录了下来。对吧？ 所以不管是外在还是内在，我们的头脑都在记录着。 所以现在的问题就是： 是否可能只在物理层面去记录某些事情——你理解吗？ 但是在心理层面却不去记录任何一件事情？ 也就是说，当你的妻子说你是一个禽兽般的男人时， 不要去记录它。 而当她说‘你昨天对我真是太好了’， 或者‘你给了我如此大的快乐’时， 也不要去记录。你明白了吗？ 这样的话，头脑就只会在 有必要的时候去记录，那种日常生活中的物理层面的记录， 而内在、心理上，永远不会去记录。 是的，先生！那种记录就是知识。 那种记录就是形象， 它划分了你和我，他们和我们， 她和我，或者我和他。你理解了吗？ 那么那种记录能否永远不要在关系中发生呢？
1:12:06 Sir, it is time to stop. But what is the point of listening to all this? What do you learn from all this? Do you hear and go away and repeat the old pattern? Then what is the value of listening? Either you listen with intensity, with passion to find out, to live a different kind of life. You may have done wrong things before, you may have done some harm to another, the remorse, the guilt, and all the rest of it - it's gone, not live with it. And so to find out passionately, you know, as you want money, as you want sex, as you are hungry, you are tremendously active, to find out for yourself whether this recording can end, so that there is no conflict between you and me, between your wife and yourself. It is this recording that is divisive. The recording is the me, is the self. And meditation is the ending of that recording, total ending. Not sitting cross-legged, closed eyes and doing some kind of tricks. That is all nonsense. This requires enormous energy, passion, which brings its own tremendous discipline, which means learning. 先生，演讲结束时间到了。 但我还想问下，你聆听所有这些东西的意义是什么呢？ 你从所有这些演讲中学到了什么？ 你是不是只是听听，然后离开，继续重复旧有的模式？ 那样的话，聆听的价值何在呢？ 你要全神贯注地去聆听，带着想要去发现的热情去听， 去过一种截然不同的生活。 你也许在过去做了错事， 你也许曾经伤害过别人， 你感到悔恨、内疚，等等这些情绪 ——它们都离去了，不要再带着它们生活。 因此，要充满热情地去发现它，你知道的， 就像你渴求金钱，就像你渴求性，就像你无比饥饿一样， 你非常积极主动， 亲自去发现是否这种记录可以停止， 由此你我之间便不会有冲突， 你妻子和你之间便不会有冲突。 正是这种记录造成了分裂。 这种记录就是‘我’，就是那个自我。 而冥想就是去停止那种记录， 彻底停止。 不是盘腿而坐，闭上眼睛，然后玩一些小把戏。 那些事情都是极其荒谬的。 这件事需要巨大的能量与激情， 它将会带来其自身强大的纪律性， 那意味着学习。
1:14:56 It is a quarter to twelve. May I stop please. 现在已经11点45分了。 我就到此为止吧。