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SA85T1 - 人為何活在衝突之中？
1985年7月7日 瑞士 沙南
公開談話（一）



1:16 I see some old faces I can recognise. What shall we talk about? If one may, one would like to point out that we are a gathering of serious people who are concerned with their daily life. We are not concerned whatsoever with beliefs, ideologies, suppositions, theoretical conclusions or theological concepts, nor are we trying to find a sect, a group of people who follow somebody. We are not, let’s hope, frivolous but rather we are all together concerned with what is happening in the world and our responsibility to it: all the tragedies, the utter misery, poverty – not in this country, there are no slums. We were told the other day you couldn’t have slums in this marvellous climate – though it has been raining day after day. Let’s hope, during these meetings, that we have fairly good weather. 我看到一些認識的老面孔 我們要談些什麼？ 容我…我想指出的是 這是一群認真者的聚會 我們關切的是自己的日常生活 不關心信仰、意識型態 假設、理論性的結論 或神學概念 也不試圖尋找宗派 追隨某某人的一群人 希望我們不是輕率無聊之人 而是在一起關心 世界現在發生的事 以及我們的責任… 對所有悲劇、徹底的痛苦與貧窮的責任 不是瑞士，這裡沒有貧民窟 前幾天聽人說在這種美好的氣候下 不可能有貧民窟 雖然一連下了幾天雨 希望這幾天的聚會 會有非常好的天氣
4:05 And also one would like to point out, if one may, that you and I, the speaker, are walking, taking a journey together. Not in an aeroplane high up at 31,000 feet or 40,000 feet, but walking along a quiet road, a long endless road all over the world where one sees appalling terrorism, killing people for no purpose – just to threaten them, terrorise people, kidnapping people, hijacking, murdering, preparing to murder other people, wars, not only in Afghanistan, Beirut, and South America but all over the world. Perhaps most of you know all this. We don’t seem to very much care, we are rather indifferent. It is only when it happens very close to us that we become concerned, worried, fearful. Where it is far away from us, each one of us, we are more indifferent. This is what is happening in the world: economic division, religious division, political division and all the religious, sectarian divisions. There is a great deal of danger, hazards. One doesn’t know what is going to happen in the future, not only in our own life time but also for our grand children, children, and so on. The whole world is in a great crisis and the crisis is not only out there but also in each one of us, if you are at all aware of all this. And what is our responsibility to all that, on the part of each one of us? One must have asked this question of oneself very often, what is one to do, where should one begin? Join a political party? Republican, Conservative, Democratic, Communist, following Marx and Stalin and all that group? Where would you all begin? What would each one of us do, facing this terrible society in which we live, each concerned with himself, with his own fulfilment, with his own sorrow, with his own misery, economic struggle, and so on? Each one of us is concerned with himself. And what shall we do? Shall we pray to God? Repeat prayers over and over again? Or belonging to some sect, some guru, and follow him, escaping from the world. Put on some medieval dress or modern robes of peculiar colour and all the rest of it? Can we withdraw from the world at all, like monks both in India and here? 容我再指出一點 你和我 ── 說者 正一起踏上一趟旅程 不是搭飛機 在三、四萬呎的高空 而是在一條寧靜的路上 一條漫無止境的環球之路 我們看見怵目驚心的恐怖主義 毫無目的的殺人只為了威脅他們 恐嚇、綁架、劫持、謀殺 為殺人和戰爭做準備 不只在阿富汗、貝魯特和南美洲 而是遍佈世界各地 或許多數人都知道這些事 我們似乎不太在乎表現得相當冷漠 只有當戰爭很逼近的時候 我們才會關心、擔憂和恐懼 只要戰爭遠離我們，遠離我們每一個人 我們就無動於衷或者更加冷漠 這就是世界的現狀： 經濟、宗教、政治的分化 以及所有宗教與宗派等的分化 我們面臨著極大的危險和災害 沒人知道未來會發生什麼 不只是我們這一生 也包括子子孫孫的未來 世界正處於極大的危機之中 危機不只是外在的也在每一個人的內心 如果我們能覺察到這一切 我們對這一切的責任 每一個人的責任是什麼？ 我們必須經常自問這個問題 我們該做些什麼？該從哪裡著手？ 加入一個政黨嗎？ 加入共和黨、保守黨、民主黨或共產黨 追隨馬克斯、史達林之類的團體嗎？ 你們要打哪兒開始？ 每一個人要怎麼做？ 面對我們生活其中的恐怖社會 人人只關心自己和自我的實現 自己的哀傷和悲慘 經濟的奮鬥等等 人人只關心著自己 我們該做些什麼？ 向上帝祈禱嗎？ 一再地重覆那些禱詞嗎？ 或歸屬於某一個宗派追隨某一個上師 逃離這個世界 穿著中世紀的服裝 或奇顏異色的現代僧袍嗎？ 我們真的能出離這個世界嗎？ 像印度或此地的僧侶一樣
9:52 Seeing all this, observing intimately, – not as something in the newspapers, or something you have read about, or been told about, or been informed through journalists, novels, television and all the information industry – what is the role of each one of us, the responsibility? 看這一切，貼身地觀察 不是看報紙上的新聞 也不是閱讀或聽聞而來 或透過新聞記者 小說或電視的告知 以及資訊業提供的消息 我們每一個人的角色、責任是什麼？
10:46 As we said, this is not an entertainment; we are not trying to entertain you, or trying to tell what you should do, each one of us. We have had leaders galore – hundreds of them political, religious, those who say, ‘We are illumined, we have attained’ – whatever they have attained. We have had thousands of leaders, political, economic, religious, sectarian, and they have been utterly helpless. They have their own theories, their own way and there are thousands of people who are following them, all over the world – quantities of money, really enormous wealth, not only the wealth of the Roman Catholic church but also the wealth of the gurus. It all ends up in money. 我們說過這不是娛樂 我們不是試圖娛樂你 或試圖告訴你該怎麼做 我們每一個人 我們有很多領袖數以百計的領袖 政治、宗教領袖說 我們啟明了，我們成就了 無論他們成就了什麼 數以千計的領袖 政治、經濟、宗教、宗派領袖 他們卻徹底地無能為力 他們各有自己的理論和方式 擁有數以千計的追隨者 遍佈世界各地 擁有龐大的金錢和財富 不只是羅馬天主教會 也包括那些上師擁有的財富。 歸根究底都是為了金錢
12:18 So, if one may ask, what shall we do together? Or what shall we do, a single human being? Are we at all concerned, or are we seeking some peculiar satisfaction, gratification for ourselves? Or we are committed to a certain symbol, religious or otherwise, and we cling to that, hoping that symbol, what lies behind that symbol helps us. This is a very serious question. It is becoming much more serious now, for there is the threat of war; there is total uncertainty. 因此…我們想問的是我們該一起做些什麼？ 或者，個人該做些什麼？ 我們真的關心嗎？ 或者在尋找一些奇特的事物 來滿足自己 或者奉獻於某一個宗教或非宗教的象徵 再執著於那個象徵希望那個象徵… 象徵背後的東西會幫助我們 這是個非常嚴肅的問題 如今變得更加的嚴肅了 因為戰爭的威脅迫在眉睫 一種全然的不確定感
14:10 May the speaker inform you of a conversation he had with a Mr.X, may I? A conversation between this Mr.X and the speaker for several days continuously. This Mr.X has travelled all over the world, more or less, he told the speaker. He is fairly well-read, gone to various institutions; sometimes he joined them, and with a rush he got out of them. He followed one guru or another and gave them up. And for a few weeks he tried to become a monk, and that too he gave up. And he looked at the various political parties: extreme Left, extreme Right, Centre and the spectrum of political activities. And at last he said, I have come to talk with you. I would like to have a conversation with you, at the same level as I am, not, you are pretentious, or your real position. I don’t know what you are, I have read something about you. May I go on with this conversation? May I repeat? Does it interest you? 我…說者可以告訴你們 他與 X 先生的一段對話嗎？可以嗎？ X 先生和說者 一連幾天的對話 這位 X 先生堪稱是周遊世界 他這麼告訴說者 他博覽群籍 造訪過各種機構 有時也加入它們 往往都是倉促地退出 他追隨過不同的上師最後都放棄了 也試著當過幾星期的僧侶 這個嚐試也放棄了 他也觀察過各種政黨 極左派、極右派 中間派與全方位的政治活動 他最後說，我想來跟你談話 我想跟你談話 我倆是在同一層面上對話， 我不管你是不是在矯揉造作也不管你真實的地位是什麼 我不知道你是什麼樣的人 我讀過一些關於你的報導 我可以繼續這個談話嗎？ 我可以重述嗎？你們有興趣嗎？
16:33 And he said let’s talk over things together like two friends, you and I. Like two friends who have lived together – in the sense: in the world – been through every kind of travail, and he said to the speaker, what is it all about? Why is man born like this? Why has he become after many, many millennia what he is now? Through that long period of evolution, long period of time, suffering, anxious, lonely, desperate, disease, death and always the gods somewhere about – among the Olympian mountains, or on the River Nile, or in the ancient city of Benares in India. Let’s forget all about those gods and let us talk together as two human beings, living in this world, in this marvellous country, the earth which is so beautiful, which is the mother of all things – right? You are following all this? Mother was worshipped because the earth is the mother. The Greeks had the Athena with several breasts – I think four on each side – representing that she was the mother of the earth – mother, as the earth. 他說，讓我們一起談些事 像兩個朋友一樣，你和我 像兩個朋友 在世上一起生活的朋友 經歷過各種磨難 他問說者：這一切所為何來？ 人為何生而如此？ 經過幾千年的演化為什麼還是今天的情況？ 經過長期的演化 漫長的時間 經歷過受苦、焦慮、孤獨 絕望、疾病和死亡 以及無處不在的眾神 希臘的奧林匹斯山、埃及的尼羅河 印度波羅奈古城的眾神 讓我們忘掉這些神明 讓我們一起談話 以兩個人的身份——活在這個世界上的 活在這個美妙的國家和地球上的人 這個萬物之母的地球，對嗎？ 你們聽懂了嗎？ 母親，我們崇拜母親 因為地球是母親 希臘的雅典娜女神有好幾個乳房 應該是左、右各四個 象徵著她是大地之母 母親等於大地
19:15 And so this Mr.X, gave something of his inward thoughts, his outward activities. And he said: what is all this about? Why are human beings, who have educated themselves – sophisticated, experts in technology, and can argue the hind legs off a donkey – do you understand all these expressions? – who can invent gods and goddesses and everything, why have human beings all over the world, why are they in perpetual conflict? Not only with the environment, not only with their governments whom they have elected, or dominated by a Politburo, or dominated by some dogma invented by ancient priests, but in spite of all this, why is each human being everlastingly, from the moment he is born till he dies, why does he live in this conflict? That was the first question he asked, this Mr.X. Why? What is the raison d’être, or the cause of this conflict, not only outwardly but also most deeply, inwardly, subjectively, inside the skin as it were, why is he in conflict? They have talked endlessly about peace. All the religions have preached, long before Christianity, centuries before Christianity: live at peace, be peaceful, be quiet, be gentle, generous, affectionate, loving. In spite of their propaganda, in spite of human beings programmed from their childhood, encouraged to be aggressive, or to be gentle, or to go face the world for themselves, alone, fighting – you know all that. Is there an answer to this question, a final, irrefutable answer? That is, can human beings in this world, living their daily life, going to the office, keeping a house, sex, children and all that, and also this search, this longing for something much more than the mere material things of life. Can this question be ever solved? And apparently man has not solved it, though he has lived on this earth for two or three million years... – for forty thousand years, or fifty thousand years as a human being. We have gathered tremendous experience. We have gathered a great deal of knowledge – Mr.X was telling the speaker – we have gathered immense information technologically, but inwardly we remain barbarians trying to kill each other, trying to compete with each other, destroy each other. 所以這位 X 先生 發表了一些內心的想法 談了談他外在的一些活動行為。 他說，這一切所為何來？ 為什麼人類 受過教育 久經世故、精於科技的人類 擁有舌燦蓮花的辯才 懂這些措詞的意思嗎？ 發明男神和女神等的人類 為什麼全世界的人類 永無止息地衝突？ 不只是與環境的衝突 不只是與民選的政府衝突 或政治局支配的政府 或古代教士發明的教條 所支配的政府 即便是如此 為什麼每一個人類 從出生那一刻到死亡為止 始終活在衝突之中？ 這是 X 先生提出的第一個問題 為什麼？ 這種衝突存在的理由或肇因是什麼？ 不只是外在的 還包括主觀的、內在最深處的 在這個皮囊之內的肇因 他為什麼處於衝突之中？ 他們滔滔不絕地談論和平 基督教之前的所有宗教 基督教之前的幾百年 都宣揚活在和平裡處於和平、安靜、溫和 慷慨、關懷、慈愛 即使宗教鼓吹宣揚 即使人類從小就被程式設定 鼓勵他們要進取或溫和 或者在世間單打獨鬥 你們知道這些事 這個問題有答案嗎？ 有一個不容辯駁的最終答案嗎？ 也就是說，這個世界的人類 過著日常的生活：上班 養房、性愛、孩子等 以及想超越這一切的追尋和渴求 不只滿足於生活的物質享受 這個問題能得到解決嗎？ 顯然人類並沒有解決 雖然他活在地球上 已有兩、三百萬年的歷史 做為人類也有四萬年 或五萬年的歷史了 我們收集了大量的經驗 收集了大量的知識 X 先生告訴說者 我們收集了大量技術方面的資訊 但內心卻停留在野蠻的狀態 試圖互相殘殺 試圖互相競爭、互相摧毀
25:30 So he came all that way, it is a long distance, bus, train, aeroplane, and he said, 'Answer this question'. Is there a cause for this conflict? And if there is a cause then let’s discover what the cause is. Not that you are going to lead me, or tell me, but together you, Mr.X and the speaker, together, not that you will tell me and I will accept, or I will go and think about it and come to some kind of my own conclusion, but rather – said Mr.X – that together as two human beings, not one is sitting on a platform and the other sitting down below – sorry! But together, as two human beings who have gone through a great deal of life, the loneliness, the desperation, the anxiety, the uncertainty, wanting love and not finding it, or loving and not being satisfied with that, always pushing, pushing, pushing, always wanting to achieve something, whether it is heaven, or illumination, or enlightenment, or become a multimillionaire, which is more or less the same thing. All want to achieve something. They are never content, they never know what peace is, they never sit quietly under a tree, looking at the mountains, the rivers, the blade of grass and the beauty of the earth and the sunlight, and the glory of an early morning. 所以他才不遠千里而來 搭巴士、火車和飛機 他說，回答這個問題 這種衝突有肇因嗎？ 如果有肇因 就讓我們探索肇因是什麼 不是由你來引導我或告訴我 而是你，X 先生和說者一起 不是你說什麼我照單全收 或者我聽了再考慮一番 做出自己的結論 而是，X 先生說 兩個人一起 不是一個人坐在講台上 另一個人坐在下面，抱歉！ 而是一起，以兩個人的身份 經驗過許多人生的歷練 孤獨、絕望 焦慮、不確定 想要愛卻得不到 或者有愛卻不滿足 一個勁地往前衝、衝、衝 始終想達成什麼，無論是天堂 啟明或開悟 或成為千萬富翁 其實都是同一回事 所有人都想成就什麼 他們永遠不會知足 從不知道和平是什麼從來不會安靜地坐著 坐在樹下看山脈 河流、草葉 大地和陽光的美麗 旭日的絢麗
28:38 So Mr.X said to the speaker, let’s talk, let us question each other, never accepting what he says, or what you say. I won’t accept a thing from you, nor will you accept a thing from me. We are on the same level. You may be very clever, you may have a reputation – which is nonsense – you may go around the earth, or a certain part of the earth, all that doesn’t count; it has no value – with which the speaker agreed wholeheartedly. 所以，X 先生告訴說者 讓我們談談，讓我們彼此質問 永遠不要接受他或你說的 我不接受你說的任何東西 你也不接受我說的任何東西 我們平起平坐 你也許非常聰明 也許擁有毫無意義的名聲 你也許環遊過世界 或去過地球的某一部分 這些都不算數，都沒有價值 說者全心全意地贊同
29:46 So let us explore this curse which man has borne from the beginning of time: why man – which includes woman, please – why man lives this way, why man is in conflict in his own intimate relationship, sexually, in a family, the whole network of conflict – right? 讓我們來探索 人類有史以來就背負的詛咒 人為什麼，請把女人包括在內 人為什麼以這種方式生活？人為什麼會有衝突？ 在他的親密關係裡 在性愛、家庭裡 在整個衝突的網路裡，對嗎？
30:54 So he came the next day, Mr.X, and we continued. We sat on the veranda on a beautiful day overlooking the valley, the great mountains round us, snow-capped, marvellous valleys, blue, and lovely azure skies, and the sun glittering on the leaves, the dappled earth, everything seemed so marvellously alive, pulsating, full of energy. There we were, he and the speaker, watching this great beauty and never being with the beauty, always watching it, never feeling the beauty with one’s heart and mind, being utterly sensitive to all the glory of the earth. He said we won’t talk about beauty, that is your business, you tell me about it. I said we will, a little later. First let us take a journey or explore together into this question of conflict. We are asking: must human beings bear with it, get accustomed to it, hold it, never, never be able to put it completely aside, so that his brain then can function as it should – completely untethered, completely free, not programmed, not conditioned. 所以 X 先生第二天來了我們繼續談話 在一個美好的天氣，坐在陽台 俯視著山谷 四周圍繞著高山，白雪覆頂 美妙的山谷、漂亮湛藍的天空 閃爍著陽光的樹葉斑駁的大地 萬物充滿了神奇的生機 脈動著飽滿的能量 我們坐在那裡，他和說者 觀看這一份大美 但從來沒有與美同在 始終都在觀看 從來沒有用心感覺過美 沒有以徹底的敏銳感覺大地的榮耀 他說，我們不談美 那是你的事，你說給我聽吧 我說，以後會說 我們先踏上一段旅程 或一起探索這個衝突的問題 我們要問的是人類必須承受它 習慣它、抓住它 永遠無法完全放下 好讓他的頭腦正常運作嗎？ 完全不受束縛、完全自由 不被設定、不受制約
33:35 So now the speaker is putting this question to you. And also we discussed, talked over, debated this point: what is the cause of it? We are taking a journey together, not asking you to tell me, or I to tell you. What is the cause of it? Everywhere there is struggle. You might say there is struggle in nature, when the big animal lives on the smaller animal and so on. In a forest the little tree is struggling against the gigantic trees for light. You might say everywhere on earth, in nature, there is conflict, some kind of struggle going on. So why shouldn’t we also go on that way because we are part of nature? There, out there, there is conflict, what human beings call conflict – it may not be, it may be the most natural way of nature acting, the hawk, the eagle kills the rabbit, bears kill salmon, the tiger kills something swiftly, or the cheetahs, it goes on killing, in nature. And one might say we are also part of this whole nature so it is inevitable that we should be in constant struggle. If one accepts that, that it is natural, inevitable, there is nothing more to be said about it, because you say it is natural, we will go on that way because we are part of the whole earth. But if one begins to question it – Mr.X was telling the speaker – if you begin to question it, then where are you? That means, are you willing together to find out because we are supposed to be a little more active, intelligent than the trees, the tigers, the elephants – not the elephants, fortunately they don’t kill too many things, but they destroy trees – and the cheetah and all the rest of it. We may have come from the ape, probably we have – we must be strange monkeys! And if we do not accept that conflict is the way of life, then what is one to do? Where does one start to understand the whole movement of conflict? How does one feel one’s way into all this? The speaker said to Mr.X, either you analyse very carefully all the factors of conflict, one after the other. Through analysis, self-analysis or being analysed by another, or accepting the professional advice of professors, philosophers, and psychologists, if one begins to analyse, will that bring about the discovery of the cause? Either that discovery will be intellectual, through analysis, or that analysis may bring you certain intellectual conclusions, or you put all the analytical factors together and see the whole. You understand? Is that possible? Or is there a different approach to the question? You understand? I wonder if Mr.X understands what the speaker is saying. 說者現在向你提出這個問題 我們也討論過、辯論過 衝突的肇因是什麼？ 我們一起踏上這一趟旅程 不是要求你告訴我或我告訴你 衝突的肇因是什麼？ 鬥爭處處可見 你或許會說大自然裡就有鬥爭 大動物以小動物為食等 樹林裡的小樹為了爭取陽光 和大樹戰鬥 你或許會說地球上到處都有衝突 不同類型的鬥爭在進行 為什麼我們不該如此？ 因為我們是大自然的一部分 那邊有衝突 人類所謂的衝突 也許是大自然最自然的運作方式 鷹或鷲獵殺兔子 熊捕殺鮭魚 老虎或花豹快速獵殺動物 不斷的殺戮在大自然中進行 有人會說我們也是大自然的一部分 因此我們難免要持續地鬥爭 如果我們接受鬥爭是自然的、難以避免的 那就沒什麼好說的了 因為你說這是自然的我們就繼續這個方式 因為我們是地球的一部分 但如果有人開始質疑這一點 X 先生問說者 如果你開始質疑那麼你的立場是什麼？ 這意味著你願意一起弄清楚嗎？ 因為我們的主動性和智力 應該比樹木、老虎和大象多一點 不包括大象幸好牠們不會獵殺太多動物 但會摧毀樹木 也多於花豹和其他動物 我們也許來自猩猩，有可能是 我們一定是奇怪的猴子 如果我們不接受 衝突是一種生活方式那我們該怎麼做？ 我們要打哪開始了解衝突的整個活動？ 如何摸索這個問題？ 一則，說者對 X 先生說 一則，你非常仔細地分析 逐一分析衝突的所有因素 透過分析 自我分析或被別人分析 或接受教授、哲學家 和心理學家的專業建議 如果你開始分析 這會讓你發現肇因嗎？ 那種發現要麼是知性的 對嗎？透過分析 或者那種分析會帶來某種知性的結論 或把所有的因素整合起來看到衝突的整體 明白嗎？有此可能嗎？ 或者有一個不同的解決途徑？ 明白嗎？ 我不知道 X 先生是否了解說者說些什麼
39:55 So he asks Mr.X: are we still on the same level, same comprehension ? That is – the speaker is telling Mr.X – analysis implies one who is analyser, right? Therefore there is an analyser and the analysed, the subject and the object. Is there such a difference in oneself as the subject and the object? Are we getting together? That is the first question the speaker asks Mr.X. You are the Mr.X. The analyser has been encouraged through education, through conditioning, through being programmed, that he, the analyser, is different, completely, from that which he analyses, right? Under a microscope, when you look at something very attentively, that very attention gives greater light to that which is being observed. I won’t go into this. The speaker says I am going to question the whole attitude towards analysis. The speaker is saying: I am not accepting what the professionals said about analysis, including those people who come from Vienna, or the latest American psychologists. I am not accepting any of those – the speaker tells Mr.X – but I question it, I question, not only the activity of analysis, but who is the analyser? If you can understand the analyser first then what need there be for analysis? You understand, sirs? Am I going too fast? May we go together in this? 他問 X 先生：我們還在同一個層面 同樣的理解上嗎？ 也就是說，說者對 X 先生說 分析隱含著一個分析者，對嗎？ 因此就有一個分析者和被分析者 有主體和客體，對嗎？ 人的內在有主體和客體 這種差別嗎？ 我們彼此理解了嗎？ 這是說者問 X 先生的第一個問題 你就是 X 先生 分析者受了教育的鼓勵 受到制約和程式設定的鼓勵 認為他 ── 分析者，完全不同於 他所分析的東西，對嗎？ 當你非常專注地看顯微鏡下的東西時 那個專注本身就會把強光 照在被觀察的事物上，對嗎？ 我不深入談這個 說者說，我要質疑 人對分析的整個態度 說者說，我不接受 專家對分析的說法 包括那些來自維也納的人 或包括美國新興的心理學家 我不接受那些說者對 X 先生說 但我質疑它，我質疑 不只質疑分析的活動也質疑分析者是誰？ 如果你能先了解分析者 那還有分析的必要嗎？ 明白嗎，各位？ 我說的太快嗎？我們能一起探討這件事嗎？
43:07 I analyse myself. I have been angry, or greedy, or sexual, whatever it is, and in analysing, that is breaking up and looking at it very carefully step by step, who is the observer? Is not the observer – the speaker is telling Mr.X, don’t accept what he says but together question, doubt – is not the analyser all the accumulated past remembrances? He is conditioned through experience, his knowledge, his way of looking at life, his peculiar tendencies, his prejudices... his prejudices, his religious programme – being programmed religiously, all this is the past, all this is the background of his life, from childhood. He is the observer, he is the analyser. Whether that background includes communal remembrance, racial remembrance, racial consciousness and so on, he is the observer. And then the observer breaks it up into the observed and the observer. Right? Are you following? So that very division in analysis creates conflict. Right? Are we together? You are the Mr.X, I am the speaker. Are we taking the same journey together? That is, the moment there is a division between the analyser and the analysed there must inevitably be conflict of some kind: subtle, fatuous, no meaning, but it is a conflict. Overcome, conquer, suppress, transcend, all these are efforts in minor or major form – right? 我分析自己 我生氣、貪婪或有性欲之類的 分析就是拆解 按部就班地仔細檢視 誰是觀察者？ 觀察者不就是… 說者對 X 先生說 不要接受他說的話 而是一起質問、懷疑 分析者不就是所有累積的過往回憶嗎？ 他被經驗、知識制約 被他看生命的方式 特殊的傾向 他的偏見 他的偏見、宗教的設定 受了宗教的設定 這一切都是過去 都是他從小到大的生活背景 他是觀察者，是分析者 無論那個背景包括人類共同的記憶 種族的回憶、種族意識等等 他是觀察者 接著分析者再把自己拆解 成為被觀察者和觀察者 對嗎？聽懂了嗎？ 因此這個分析的分裂本身就製造了衝突 對嗎？我們有交會嗎？ 你們是 X 先生，我是說者 我們有一起踏上這一趟旅程嗎？ 也就是說，分析者和被分析者 有分裂的那一刻 就難免會有某種衝突 微妙、愚笨、無意義的衝突 但的確是衝突 克服、征服、壓抑、超越 都是大小不同的努力形式，對嗎？
46:15 So one discovers that where there is division between the Swiss and the Germans, and the French and the English, wherever there is a division there must be conflict, 'I and you', 'we and they'. Not that there is not division, the rich are very powerful. But if we created subjectively a division: I belong to this and you belong to that. I am a Catholic, you are a Protestant; I am a Jew and you are an Arab. 當你發現凡是有分裂的地方 瑞士人和德國人 法國人和英國人的分裂 凡是有分裂的地方，必然有衝突 我和你、我們和他們 並不是沒有分裂 富人非常有權勢 但…如果我們主觀地製造分裂 我屬於這個，你屬於那個 我是天主教徒，你是新教徒 我是猶太人你是阿拉伯人，對嗎？
47:12 So wherever, between two people... so whenever there is this division between man and woman, between God and earth, between ‘what should be’ and ‘what is’ – I wonder if you… I am asking Mr.X if he is following all this, not only verbally, intellectually, which is meaningless, but with his heart, with his being, with his vitality, energy and passion – that wherever there is a division: me and you, I am a woman and you are a man. 因此，凡是兩個人之間… 凡是男人和女人之間 上帝和人間 應然與實然之間有分裂 我納悶你是否… 我問 X 先生是否明白這個 不只是毫無意義的知性言說 而是用他的真心和存在 用他的生命力、能量和熱情 凡是有“我和你”這種分裂的地方 我是女人，你是男人
48:23 So one begins to discover the root of conflict. Is it possible for a human being, living in a modern world, going to a job, earning a livelihood, business there, family here. I am aggressive there and mild with my wife, submitting, bearing and all that. So that one’s life becomes a contradiction. Can that contradiction end, otherwise we will live in conflict, otherwise one becomes a hypocrite? If one likes to be a hypocrite, that is all right too. But if one wants to live very honestly, which is absolutely necessary, to live with great austere honesty, not to someone, to one’s country, to one’s ideal, but to say exactly what you mean and, what you mean, you say. Not what others have said and you repeat, that is not honesty. Or believe in something and do quite the opposite. All talk about peace. Every government, every religion, and every preacher – including the speaker – talks about peace. And to live peacefully demands tremendous honesty and intelligence. So is it possible, living in the twentieth century, now, to live, inwardly first, psychologically first, subjectively, not to have in oneself any kind of division? Please do enquire, search, ask. With passion. Passion doesn’t include fanaticism, passion doesn’t demand martyrdom – right? It is not something you are so attached and that very attachment gives you passion. That is not passion, it is like being tied to something which gives you the feeling of passion, energy, like a donkey tied to a post: it can wander round and round but it is still held there. 人就會開始發現衝突的根源了 活在現代世界的人有沒有可能 工作、謀生，對嗎？ 那裡有事業，這裡有家庭 在外面攻擊成性回家對妻子和顏悅色 順服、忍受等等 以至於個人的生活變成了矛盾 這種矛盾能終結嗎？ 否則我們就會活在衝突裡 否則人就會變成偽君子 如果有人想當偽君子也無妨 但如果他想非常誠實地生活 這是絕對必要的態度 以極嚴謹的態度誠實生活 不是對別人、對國家或對理想誠實 而是說出你真正的想法 想什麼就說出來 不是重覆別人的話 這不是誠實 或者心裡相信一套做的卻是完全相反的一套，對嗎？ 所有人都談論和平 每一個政府、宗教和傳道者 包括說者在內 都在談論和平 要活得和平需要大量的誠實和智慧 那麼…有沒有可能 活在二十世紀的今天 首先是自己的內在 首先是主觀的心理層面 讓自己沒有任何分裂？ 請務必參問、尋找和提問 用你的熱情一種不包括狂熱的熱情 熱情不會要求你當烈士，對嗎？ 不是那種讓你執迷不悟的東西 那種執迷會帶給你熱情了解嗎？ 那不是熱情就像被綁在一個東西上面 那個東西給你熱情和能量 像一匹綁在柱子上的驢子 不斷地轉圈子但仍然在原地踏步
52:11 So could we, Mr.X and the speaker, not telling each other what they should do, discover for themselves in all honesty, without any sense of deception, without any sense of illusion, whether it is possible – possible, not saying 'it is possible' – whether it is possible to live in this world, wars, all the horrors that are going on, without conflict, without division. Don’t go to sleep please, it is too early in the morning. If you are asked, you are the Mr.X, if you are asked what would your answer be, inwardly? You are a Swiss, a Hindu, an Indian, a Muslim, or follow some clique, or some group, some guru’s followers, wouldn’t one have to abandon all that, completely? You may have a Swiss passport, the speaker has an Indian passport but he is not an Indian. They don’t like that in India but we have told them several times not to belong to any cult, to any guru, to anything. You are going to find this terribly difficult. Not: at the end of it you stand alone, but there is the comprehension, the inward awareness, insight, into all that thing, which is really nonsensical. It may give one momentary satisfaction, belonging to something, belonging to a group, belonging to some sect, but that is all becoming rather weary, wretched and ugly. 因此，我們，X 先生和說者 可以不告訴對方該做什麼 完全誠實地親自發現 沒有任何欺瞞 沒有任何幻覺 有沒有可能？ 是可能性，不要說‘它就是可能的’ 是否可能活在這個世間 這個有戰爭和恐怖活動的世間 沒有衝突、沒有分裂？ 請不要睡覺，現在還是大清早 如果我問你你是 X 先生，如果我問你 你內心的答案會是什麼？ 你是瑞士人、印度人印度教徒或回教徒 或追隨某一個派系或團體 某一個上師的追隨者 你不是得完全捨棄這一切嗎？ 你也許持有瑞士的護照 說者持有印度護照但他不是印度人 印度政府不喜歡這種事 但我們說過好幾次了 不屬於任何秘教、上師或任何東西 你會發現這是極為困難的事 不是要你最後變成孤立的個人 而是一份理解 一份內在的覺知、洞見 洞見這一切的了無意義 這也許會帶來短暫的滿足 歸屬於某個東西 歸屬於一個團體 歸屬於某個宗派 但這些都會變得令人厭煩卑劣和醜陋
55:25 So can one not be attached to any of this, including what the speaker is saying – especially – so that one’s own brain... and strangely your brain is not the brain is also the other, you understand? Your brain is like the brain of every other human being. It has immense capacity, immense, incredible energy. Look what they have done in the technological world. All the scientists in America are now concerned with Star Wars. We won’t go into all that. The energy, you understand? The brain has this extraordinary energy, if you concentrate on something, give your attention to something. They have given attention to kill other human beings, so the atom bomb came into being. So our brains are not ours, they have evolved through a long period of time. And in that evolution we have gathered tremendous knowledge, experience, and in all that movement, state, there is very little of what is called love. You understand? I may love my wife, or my children, or my country. My country has been divided by thought – geographically – it is the world, my world, the world in which one lives is the entire world. So my brain which has evolved through a long period of time, that brain with its consciousness is not mine because my consciousness – Mr.X is saying – I have read something about what you have said, I am not repeating what you have said, but this is what I also feel, see its actuality, that wherever I have been, in every corner of the earth, there are human beings who suffer, – pain, anxiety, desperate loneliness – and so our consciousness is shared by all other human beings. Do you realise this? Not up here, not intellectually but actually. If one really feels that, then there will be no division. Do you understand? I doubt whether Mr.X... I ask him: do you see this reality, not a concept of it, not an idea of it, not the beautiful conclusion but the actuality of it? The actuality is different from the idea of actuality. You are sitting there, that is actual, but I can imagine that you are sitting there which is totally different. 那麼人可以不依附上面所說的任何一個嗎？ 尤其是包括說者的話在內 好讓人的頭腦 奇怪的是，你的頭腦不是… 也是別人的頭腦，明白嗎？ 你的頭腦和每一個人的頭腦一樣 擁有龐大的能力 龐大且不可思議的能量 看看他們在科技界做了些什麼 全美國的科學家現在關心的是星際戰爭 我們不談這些 能量，明白嗎？ 頭腦擁有非凡的能量 如果你專注一件事 付出你的關注 他們關注的是殘殺其他人類 原子彈就因此問世 我們的頭腦不是我們的 是長期演化而來的 我們在演化的過程中 收集了龐大的知識和經驗 在所有的活動或狀態裡 卻少有我們所謂的愛 明白嗎？ 我也許愛我的妻兒或國家 我的國家被思想分裂了 地理上的分裂 這是一個世界，我的世界 我們所生活于其中的世界，它是一個整體的世界 我的頭腦經過長期的演化 那個包含了意識的頭腦不是我的 因為我的意識，X 先生說 我讀過你演說的內容 我不會重覆你說過的話 但這也是我的感覺是我看到的事實 無論我走到哪裡 世界的每一個角落 都有受苦的人 痛苦、焦慮、令人絕望的孤獨感 我們的意識是與其他人類所共有的 明白嗎？ 不是這裡，不是知性的明白是實際地明白 如果人真正地感受到它就不會有分裂了 明白嗎？ 我懷疑是否X 先生…我問他 你有看到這個真相嗎？不是關於它的概念 不是關於它的觀念，不是美麗的結論 而是它的真相 真相不同於對真相抱持的觀念對嗎？ 你們坐在那裡，這是一個實際的真相 這與我想像你們坐在那裡 是截然不同的一回事
1:00:35 So our brain is the centre of our consciousness, with all the nervous responses, sensory responses, centre of all our knowledge, all experience, knowledge, memory. Your memory may vary from another, but it is still memory. You may be highly educated, the other may have no education at all, doesn’t even know how to read and write, but it is still part of that. So your consciousness is shared by every human being on this earth. Therefore you are entire humanity. Do you understand, sirs? You are in actuality, not theoretically or theologically, or 'in the eyes of God we are all one'. Probably gods have no eyes. But in actuality wherever you go there is this strange irrevocable fact that we all go through the same mould, same anxiety, hope, fear, death, loneliness that brings such desperation. So we are mankind. And when one realises that deeply, conflict with another ceases because you are like me. 因此，我們的頭腦也就是意識的中心 伴隨著所有的神經反應、感覺反應 所有知識的中心 所有經驗、知識和記憶的中心 記憶也許因人而異 但仍然是記憶 你也許受過高等教育 另一個人也許毫無教育 不會讀書寫字 但仍然是整體的一部分，對嗎？ 因此你的意識是全人類共有的 因此你就是整個人類 明白嗎，各位？ 你活在實際裡 不是理論或神學 或是神眼中的一家人 或許神沒有眼睛 但實際上，無論你走到哪裡 都會看到這個奇怪且不可改變的事實 我們都經歷同樣的模式 同樣的焦慮、希望、恐懼死亡和孤獨 它們帶來如此的絕望 因此我們就是人類 當我們深刻地體會到這個事實時 我們與他人的衝突就會止息因為你跟我一樣
1:02:49 So that is what we talked about, Mr.X and Mr.K. And also we continued about other things for he was there for several days. But we first established a real relationship which is so necessary when there is any kind of debate, any kind of communication. Not only verbal but words don’t convey profoundly what one wants, what one desires to convey. So at the end of the second day, or the first day, we said, where are we? You, Mr.X and Mr.K, where are we in this? Have we brought about – not change, change implies time we will go into that another time – have we merely gathered – you understand, as we gather harvest? We sow, which is you have come here, which is part of sowing. And you have listened to K, and, Mr.X, what have you gathered? Which means, gathering means accumulation. You have gathered so much information – please follow this, we will stop presently, don’t get sleepy or nervous. You have gathered so much from professionals, from psychologists, from psychiatrists, gathered, gathered, gathered. And, K asks Mr X, have you gathered also? If you have gathered, then it becomes like any other gathering. I know, I have gathered, or rather learnt how to climb a mountain, now I am an expert at climbing the mountain – I am not but... – so the brain is like a magnet, gathering. So K asks Mr.X, what have you gathered? Or, are you free from gathering? Please this is very... you understand? Please, if you have the patience, listen to this. 這就是 X 先生和 K 先生談話的內容 我們也談了其他的事 因為他在那裡待了幾天 但我們先建立了真正的關係 這是任何一種辯論和溝通 必需要有的關係 不只是言語上的溝通 因為言說無法傳達深奧的東西 人想傳達的東西 因此…在第二天或第一天結束時 我們說，結論是什麼？ 你， X 先生和 K 先生我們的結論是什麼？ 我們有引發… 不是引發改變改變隱含著時間 這ㄧ點改天再談 我們只是收集… 收割莊稼嗎？ 我們播種你來這裡就是播種的一部分 你聽了 K 的談話 X 先生，你收集到什麼？ 收集意味著累積，對嗎？ 你收集了太多資訊 請跟上來我們馬上就要停止了 不要打瞌睡或緊張 你從專家那裡收集了太多東西 從心理學家和精神病學家 收集、收集、收集 K 問 X 先生你有收集這些資訊嗎？ 如果你有收集 那你就跟別人沒有兩樣 我知道，我收集過 或者我寧可學習登山的技術 我現在是登山專家了 我不是，但… 頭腦就像磁鐵一樣會收集 因此 K 問 X 先生 你收集了些什麼？ 或者你擺脫了收集的習性嗎？ 請…這是非常…明白嗎？ 如果你有耐心，請聽好
1:06:30 Do we ever stop gathering? Gathering bed sheets, pillowcases, that of course – water, gathering a degree in order to have a good job. For practical things in life one has to gather. But to see where gathering is not necessary, that is where the art of living comes. Because if you are gathering our brain is never free, is never empty to... – we won’t go into the question of emptiness that is a different matter – but are we aware that we are gathering, gathering? As we gather habits, and when you have gathered so much it is very difficult to get rid of it. This gathering conditions the brain. Born in India, belonging to a certain type of people, tradition, religious, or very orthodox, and you have gathered all that. And then to be free of all that takes immense enquiry, searching, looking, watching, aware of what you say. You follow? So is it possible not to gather at all? Please consider this, don’t reject it. Find out. You have to gather knowledge to go to your house, how to drive a car, to speak a foreign language, you have to gather words, verbal irregularities and all the rest of it, but inwardly is it necessary to gather at all? Enlightenment is not gathering. On the contrary, it is total freedom from all that. Which is after all love, isn’t it? I don’t love you because I have gathered you. Right? I have sexually been satisfied with you, or you are companionable, or I am lonely and therefore I depend on you. Then that becomes a marketable thing. Then we exploit each other, use each other, sell each other down the river. Surely that is not love, is it? It is the quality of a brain that doesn’t gather anything at all. And then what it says will be what it has discovered, not what other people have said. And in that there is tremendous passion, not lust, passion. But it has no fanaticism. I don’t suddenly become a strict vegetarian – now I won’t touch salt! Or I am a Muslim, fanatical Shiites – you understand? They have all passion of a certain type but they have become fanatical, inclined to martyrdom, and all the rest of that business. 我們可曾停止過收集？ 收集床單、枕頭套，當然會收集水 為了找一份好工作收集學位 人必須為了現實生活而收集對嗎？ 但能看到不需要收集的地方 才算是生活的藝術 因為一個收集的頭腦永遠不會自由 永遠不會放空 我們不談“空”的問題 那是另一回事 我們有覺察到自己不斷地收集收集嗎？ 就像收集習慣一樣 當你收集太多東西以後 就很難擺脫它了 這種收集制約了頭腦 你在印度出生屬於某一類的人 傳統、宗教或非常正統的宗教 你收集了這些東西 要擺脫這一切需要大量的參問 尋找、注視、觀察你說的話明白嗎？ 人有可能完全不收集嗎？ 請你考慮這一點，不要排斥找出答案 你必須收集知識才能回家 才知道如何開車 想學外語，你必須收集字彙 詞語的不規則變化等 但內在真的有必要收集嗎？ 開悟不是收集 反之，它是完全擺脫這一切 到頭來，問題都在愛不是嗎？ 我不愛你了因為我已經把你收集到手了 對嗎？ 我在你身上獲得性的滿足 或者你是個好伴侶 由於我孤獨，所以我依賴你 愛變成了交易品 我們就會彼此剝削，互相利用 背叛對方 這當然不是愛，對嗎？ 它是頭腦裡的一種素質 一種完全不收集的素質 然後它就會說出它發現的事物 不是別人說過的話 其中就有大量的熱情 不是情欲，是熱情 熱情裡沒有狂熱 我不會一夕之間變成嚴格的素食者 連一粒鹽巴都不沾！ 或者我是回教徒狂熱的什葉派，明白嗎？ 他們都有某一類型的熱情 但卻變成有烈士傾向的狂熱份子 以及其他類似的事
1:11:29 So the speaker is asking Mr.X., find out if you can live without gathering. You can’t be told about it. We can enquire into it together, but the actuality of never gathering, never the accumulated memory operating. This is really very, very subtle, it requires a great deal of enquiry. 因此，說者問 X 先生 找出你是否能不靠收集過活 你不能聽別人的 我們可以一起參問 但要實實在在地永遠不去收集 永遠不讓累積的記憶運作 這種非常、非常精微的事 需要進行大量的參問
1:12:15 May we stop now? It is an hour and a quarter we have talked. You haven’t talked, K has talked. But we have had a communication with each other, because we have established the basis of a communication in which there is no superior and the inferior, one who knows and one who does not know. May we get up? Après vous, je vous prie. After you. 可以停止了嗎？ 我們講了1小時15分鐘 不是你們講，是 K 在講 但我們有彼此溝通 因為我們建立了溝通的基礎 一個沒有優劣高下的基礎 沒有誰懂、誰不懂的基礎 我們可以站起來嗎？ 煩請你們先站起來 你們先請