Krishnamurti Subtitles home


SA85T3 - 看見自利是恐懼的根源
1985年7月14日瑞士沙南公開談話(三)



0:52 May we continue with our conversation? 我們可以繼續談話嗎?
1:08 We were talking about conflict and the causation of conflict. Conflict is growing more and more in the world, in every form, in every social section and so on. We said the cause of conflict is this constant opposition, not only within ourselves but also within the society in which we live. Society is what we have made of it. I think that is fairly clear and obvious, because in ourselves we are, from the moment we are born until we die, we are in constant struggle, competition, conflict, every form of destructive or positive attitudes, prejudices and opinions. This has been the way of our life. Not only at the present period but also for the last probably two and half million years. And we are still going on with this in the same pattern, the same mould – wars, more destructive than ever, division among nationalities, which is tribalism, religious divisions, family divisions, sectarian fragmentation and so on. 我們談過衝突 談過衝突的肇因 世界的衝突越來越多 各種不同形式的衝突,社會中每一個部門中的衝突等等 我們說過衝突的肇因是持續的對立 不只是我們的內在 也在我們所生活的社會裡 社會是由我們組成的 我認為這一點非常明顯 因為我們的內在 從出生那一刻到死亡為止 都處於不斷的掙扎、競爭、衝突 每一種破壞或正面的態度偏見或見解之中 這就是我們的生活方式 不只是目前的時期或許也包括了 過去的二、三百萬年 我們還是依循這個方式 同樣的模式、模型 戰爭的破壞力更大於以往 國籍,也就是部落主義的分裂 宗教分裂、家庭分裂 宗派的分裂等
3:44 If we may point out this morning again, that we are not here as an intellectual group, or a rather romantic, imaginative, sentimental assembly. We are together, you and the speaker, are going to take a journey, not he is leading you, or you are following him, but together, side by side, perhaps holding hands if necessary, we are taking a journey, rather complex, twisting, subtle and perhaps endless, a journey that has no beginning and no end. In the terms 'the beginning and the end', as we understand it, something starts, goes on and then comes to an end – perhaps it may not be at all like that, It may be a constant movement, not within the cycle of time but rather outside the field of momentum as we know it. We can go into all that presently. 容我們今早再一次指出 我們不是一個知性的團體 或浪漫、想像、感性的聚會 我們在一起,你和說者 要一起踏上一趟旅程 不是他引導你,也不是你追隨他 而是一起,肩並肩 或許必要時手牽手 這一趟旅程相當複雜 扭曲、微妙,或許永無止境 一趟沒有起點和終點的旅程 以我們了解的「有始有終」這個名詞 一個事物由開始到繼續最後到結束 或許完全不是這個樣子 也許是一個持續不斷的活動 不在時間的循環裡 而是在我們所知的動能領域之外 我們現在就要深入討論
5:33 So we are together. Please, the speaker must insist on this point. You are not merely listeners and you accept or reject what he says but rather in cooperation, in responsibility, together, in step, not one behind the other, walking along the same path, same 'sentier' or same lane. So it is your responsibility as well as that of the speaker not to accept or to deny, or to agree or disagree. We have been brought up, educated in this system of agreeing and disagreeing. We agree with some things, we disagree entirely with other things. So there is always this division: those who agree, do something together, and those who are opposed to what they are doing. 我們要一起討論 請了解,說者必須堅持這一點 你不只是聽者 不是只接受或拒絕他說的話 而是合作 負責任、一起、按部就班地 不是一前一後地 沿著同一條道路行進 同一個路線上 這是你和說者的責任 沒有接受或拒絕也沒有同意或不同意 養育我們長大的 是一個同意或不同意的制度 我們會同意某些事 也會完全不同意其他的事 因此這種分裂始終都在 那些同意的人在一起做事 還有一些人反對他們的做法
7:11 Could we this morning banish from our brains altogether, entirely, out of our blood, out of our brains, the idea of agreeing or disagreeing? Because if you agree with the speaker, and there are some who don’t agree, then there is a conflict between the two inevitably. One may tolerate it, one may put up with it, accept it, but there is always this division – clear? Could we, seeing the consequences of agreeing and disagreeing, approving and disapproving, together observe, together see exactly, not only as far as we can, what is happening externally – that is fairly simple because we are not told very much what is actually going on, in the political world, in the world of armaments, in the scientific world and all the technological world – but inwardly, subjectively, to see exactly what is going on, not saying, 'Well, this is bad, this is good. I accept this, I don’t accept that', but just to observe. Not, in that observation, any prejudice – right? Can we do this? Can we observe ourselves, our conduct, our behaviour, the way we think, our reactions, our faiths, beliefs, conclusions and so on? Could we observe all that as it is, not as it should be, or as it must be – just to look at it? Could we do that? That requires a great deal of attention. The brain must be extraordinarily active to reject any kind of reaction in watching oneself. Because, after all, what other people have said about us, the professors, the psychologists, the psychiatrists and the gurus and all those people, it is what they say, it is not what you see of yourself. I hope we are following each other. We are speaking English and the words the speaker is using are very simple, simple words which we use daily in our conversation with each other. There is no jargon, no specialized linguistic, semantic jargon. We are talking over together, as two friends, using ordinary, daily language. So we are asking: can we see exactly what we are without taking sides about it? Because we are going to go into all that this morning. Not only agreeing and disagreeing, seeing the consequences of each attitude, put away that completely – assessing, disagreeing, evaluating, judging – but just to observe as you observe the sky of an evening full of stars, and those mountains, majestic against the blue sky. You just observe. Can we do the same thing outwardly because there is the criteria, and from there observe ourselves and our relationship to the world, and the world relationship to us? It is a rather complex process – right? Are we together? Or am I marching ahead, and leaving you behind? Could we go together? Keeping in step, if we don’t understand each other we say, 'I don’t understand what you are talking about.' Right? Could we start with that? 我們今早可否完全拋棄 從血液和頭腦裡完全拋棄 同意或不同意的觀念? 因為如果你同意說者 另外有一些不同意的人 那麼這兩組人就會衝突了 你可以容忍、忍受或接受 但這種分裂始終都在,清楚嗎? 因此我們能否看到同意與不同意 贊成與不贊成的後果 一起觀察 一起精確地看不只是盡可能地看 看外界發生些什麼 這麼做非常簡單因為我們被告知的並不多 外界發生的事,包括政治界 軍備界、科學界 以及所有的科技界 而是內在地、主觀地 正確地看清發生什麼 不是說這個壞、這個好 我接受這個,不接受那個 而是單純地觀察 不是抱持任何偏見的觀察,對嗎? 我們做得到嗎? 我們能觀察自己自己的行為、舉止 思考方式、反應 信仰、信念、結論等嗎? 我們能如實地觀察這一切 不是應該有的樣子 或必須有的樣子只是單純地注視嗎? 我們做得到嗎? 這需要大量的關注 頭腦需要非常活躍才能拒絕 觀察自己時生起的任何反應 因為畢竟別人怎麼說我們 教授、心理學家、精神病學家 以及上師之類的人 那是他們的說法並不是你親眼看到的自己 希望我們有彼此了解 我們說的是英語 說者的用字遣詞 非常簡單 簡單的用語是我們日常會話的用語 沒有術語沒有特殊的語言學或語意學術語 我們像兩個朋友一樣地談話 使用一般的日常用語 我們要問的是我們能正確地看自己 而不採取任何立場嗎? 我們今早就要深入這些 不只是同意或不同意 看到每一種態度的後果 完全放下它 評估、不同意、評量、批判 而是像觀察天空一樣單純地觀察 滿天星斗的夜空 藍天烘托下的崇山峻嶺 你只是觀察 我們能否做同樣的事, 因為外在是有標準的。 然後由此出發,再去觀察我們自己 以及我們與世界的關係世界與我們的關係? 這是個相當複雜的過程,對嗎? 我們有同行嗎? 或者是我自己往前走把你們留在後面? 我們能步調一致地同行嗎? 如果我們沒有彼此了解 說,我不懂你說些什麼 對嗎?可以從這裡開始嗎?
13:35 What are we? Why have we such deep-rooted self-interest? Not only self-interest outwardly, there, there is a certain necessity of self-interest otherwise one has to give up. But inwardly, psychologically, subjectively, why is there such deep, impenetrable self-interest, in all of us? That self-interest – you know what that word means? To be interested in oneself, one’s own profits, one’s own failures, one’s own fragmentation, one’s own prejudices, opinions, the whole existence of one’s life – self-interest, right? Why is it we are so committed to that? Is it possible to live in this world without that self-interest? First psychologically. Then we can see if it is possible externally. Right? Are we together or am I talking over beyond that tent, over the fence? 我們是什麼? 我們為什麼會有如此根深柢固的自利? 不只是外在的自利 外在需要某種程度的自利 否則你就必須放棄 但內在、心理、主觀的層面 為什麼會有如此深沉又無法穿透的自利 在所有人內在? 那種自利你們知道這個詞的意思 對自己有興趣,個人的利益 個人的失敗、分裂 個人的偏見、見解 個人生命的整個存在 自利,對嗎? 我們為何如此致力於自利? 有可能沒有自利地 活在這個世界嗎? 首先是心理的層面 然後就能看到外在是否可能 對嗎?我們有交會嗎? 或是我在對著帳篷圍籬的那一頭說話?
15:24 Have you ever noticed that we build a fence round ourselves? A fence of self-protection, a fence to ward off any hurts, a barrier between you and the other, between you and your family, between you and so on. There is a barrier between you and the speaker – right? Naturally. You don’t know the speaker, the speaker doesn’t know you, therefore you are rather politely listening, curious what the devil he is talking about and hoping that you will get something out of it after sitting an hour or so in this hot tent, marquee, and expecting something – right? Naturally. Curious, choosing what suits you, what doesn’t suit you, listening partially, not entirely because one doesn’t want to expose oneself to oneself, so naturally one creates either a very thin barrier, hardly any, or a definite wall. Why do we do that? Is that not also self-interest? And this self-interest must inevitably bring about fragmentation – to break up. Nationally, you can see the barrier, on one side England and the other side all Europe and beyond it. There is this constant division. And where there is division there must be conflict, that's inevitable. Whether you have very deep intimate relationship with your wife or husband, girl or boy, and so on, where there is division there must be fragmentation, there must be conflict. That is a law – right? Whether you like it or not, that is the law. But when one sees that, then you break down – the very seeing is the way of breaking down the barrier. 你有注意過我們在自己周圍建造的圍籬嗎? 一道自我保護的圍籬 一道防堵任何傷害的圍籬 一個介於你和別人之間 介於你和家人之間 介於你和其他人之間的障礙 你和說者之間有一道障礙,對嗎? 很自然的事 你不認識說者,說者也不認識你 因此,你很有禮貌地傾聽 對他的胡說八道感到好奇 希望你會從中獲得什麼 在這個熱帳篷裡坐上大約一個小時 有所期望,對嗎?自然的事 好奇,選擇什麼是適合你的,什麼是不適合你的 心不在焉地聽不是全心全意地聽 因為你不想把自己曝露給自己 因此你自然會創造 一道微而不察的障礙 或一堵明確的圍牆 我們為何會這麼做?這不也是自利嗎? 這種自利必然會帶來分裂 瓦解 你可以看到國與國之間的屏障 一邊是英國另一邊是其他的歐洲各國 以及更遠的地方 持續的分裂 有分裂的地方必然有衝突這是不可避免的 無論你與妻子、丈夫或男、女朋友等 有深度的親密關係 有分化就必然有分裂 必然有衝突,這是定律,對嗎? 無論你喜歡與否,這是定律 但當你看到這一點 你就會拆解它 看本身就會拆解障礙
18:51 So we must enquire: what does it mean to see, what does it mean to observe? I am observing myself, I am watching what I am, my reactions, my prejudices, my convictions, my idiosyncrasies, the traditions in which I have been brought up, the reputation, all that rubbish – I am watching. If I do not watch very carefully, listen to every sound that is going on in watching, then I set a direction in which I must go. You are following all this? Am I talking to myself? 因此我們必須參問 看是什麼意思,對嗎? 觀察是什麼意思? 我在觀察自己,對嗎? 我在觀察自己的本然觀看我的反應和偏見 我的信念和習性 我成長其中的傳統 名聲等所有的垃圾,我在觀看 如果我沒有非常仔細地觀看 傾聽觀看中發出的每一個聲音 那麼我就會設定一個必須要走的方向 你明白嗎? 我在自言自語嗎?
20:05 We were talking in Washington, America, and what I said they clapped, approving, encouraging. Here, you sit all very quietly. One really doesn’t know if you are actually walking together or actually listening, or casually come in – a Sunday morning sermon, instead of going to church you turn up here, either for amusement, or just hear what that chap is saying, or 'Well, I agree with him but he is not quite right about other things.' We never look at the whole thing, the whole problem of life, the whole existence from childhood to death. We never take the whole thing in and observe, learn – not accumulate knowledge, that is fairly simple, but to learn what is happening in ourselves, the demands that we make upon each other, the hurts, the deep loneliness, the depression, the anxiety, the uncertainty, the fears, and all the pleasant things that we have, and also suffering, and ultimately there is the pain of death. We never look at this whole movement as one, but rather we consider it fragmentarily. 我們在美國華盛頓講話時 我說什麼他們都鼓掌 表示贊同、鼓勵 在這裡,你們都很安靜地坐著 讓人不知道你們是否實際地跟我同行 或者實際地在傾聽 或者是無意地走進來參加週日早上的佈道會 不去教堂,選擇來這裡 若不是為了娛樂 就是來聽這傢伙說些什麼 或者我同意他的說法但其他的事 不見得對 我們從不看整個事件 整體的生活問題 從小到死的整個存在 我們從不以整體事物為對象觀察、學習 不是累積知識,這種事非常簡單 而是要得知自己內在發生的事 我們對彼此提出的要求 傷害、深沉的孤獨 沮喪、焦慮 不確定感、恐懼 所有愉悅的事物 還有受苦 到頭來還有死亡的痛苦 我們從未用一體來看整個活動 反而以片段的方式思考
22:30 Now we are going to look, if we may, together, not only at what is the cause of this fragmentation but also whether the brain, which has been conditioned for millions of years to war, to conflict, to work all the time, endlessly chattering, divided as tribes, as nationalities and so on, your god and my god, Eastern philosophy opposed to the Western philosophy. You know all that is going on. So if we could this morning put aside altogether, if we can, the whole movement of agreeing and disagreeing, in which there is choice – right? I choose to go that way and you choose to go that way. I choose to believe in God, or no god, and you say, ‘No, sorry I can’t accept that, there must be God, because I believe it, I like it’ or ‘it is my tradition’ – and so on. If we once recognise the division, the agreement and disagreement, reward and punishment, then we can begin to look actually at ourselves, because ourselves is the world. Right? What we are, the world is. If we are violent, suspicious, ungenerous, the world is like that. This is obvious, isn’t it? Because we have made this society, this monstrous, ugly, immoral world in which we live, with all the gods, and you know, all that business. It has become a great circus, painful circus, or pleasurable circus. So to see exactly what we are without any distortion. What are we? Psychologically, not biologically. Biologically it has been put together through millennia upon millennia. Psychologically from the beginning of man there is violence, hate, jealousy, aggression, trying to become always something more, more and much more than what we are. Is it that one is merely listening to the description, or see the fact, not the idea of the fact? You understand? There is a difference between fact and the idea of the fact. That is, we have an idea: seeing something, we make out of that an idea, and then pursue the idea. ‘I shouldn’t be like this but I must be like that’ that's an idea! First I see what I am, not what I should be – right? Then I see exactly what I am. That is a fact. Fact does not need an idea, a concept, an ideology. It is so. I am angry. That is a fact. But if I say, ‘I must not be angry’ then it becomes an idea. Are we together in this? 如果可以的話我們現在要一起看 不只是看分裂的肇因 也要看被制約了的頭腦 幾百萬年以來 被戰爭、衝突全天候工作所制約 喋喋不休地嘮叨 分化為部落、國籍等 你的上帝、我的上帝 東方哲學對抗西方哲學 你們知道正在進行中的一切 但願我們今早把這一切放下 同意和不同意的整個活動 對抗之中有選擇,對嗎? 我選擇走這條路你選擇走那條路 我選擇相信有神或無神 你說,不,抱歉我無法接受那個 一定有上帝 因為我相信,我喜歡 或者說這是我的傳統等 如果我們能認識到這個分化 同意和不同意、報償和懲罰等 那麼我們就能開始實際地觀看自己了 因為我們就是世界,對嗎? 我們是什麼,世界就是什麼 如果我們暴力、懷疑、吝嗇 世界就會像這樣 這是顯而易見的,不是嗎? 由於我們製造了這個社會 這個怪異、醜陋、不道德的 我們所生活的世界 伴隨著所有的神還有你們知道的其他此類事情 已變成一個大馬戲團 充滿痛苦或享樂的馬戲團 因此…看如實的自己 沒有任何扭曲 我們是什麼? 心理的層面,不是生理層面 生理上 經過好幾千年 心理上 人類誕生之初 就有暴力、憎恨 嫉妒、攻擊 始終試圖變成別的東西,對嗎? 遠超過我們本來的樣子 你只想聽我的說明 或者看事實不是有關事實的概念,了解嗎? 事實不同於有關事實的觀念 換言之,我們有一個觀念 看到一個東西就把它變成一個觀念 接著再追逐那個觀念 我不應該如此我必須像那個樣子 這就是觀念! 首先要看到我本然的樣子不是我應該有的樣子,對嗎? 我正確地看到自己的本然這是一個事實 事實不需要觀念、概念和意識型態 它本來如此我生氣了,這是事實 但如果我說,我不能生氣這就變成一個觀念了 我們有交會嗎?(有)
27:50 So what is it that you are making out of this? Is it that you are concluding a set of ideas, or seeing the fact as it is? – that we are jealous, aggressive, lonely, fear and all the rest of it? The whole psyche, the persona, the ego, is all that. Are you suspicious of this? All this is the past, the memories that we have collected. I have been afraid, I know what is fear, and the moment that feeling arises I say, ‘That is fear’. The very saying that it is fear is an idea, not a fact. I don’t know if you are following all this. Sir, the word 'tree' is not the actual tree Right? The name K is not the actual K. The word is not the thing, right? So when you observe your brain is caught in a whole network of words, words, words. Can you look at yourself without the word? Oh, come on, sirs, play the game with me, will you? The ball is in your court. That is, can you look at your wife, at your husband, at your children, or your girlfriend, or whatever it is, without the word, without the image? That word, that image, is the division. Right? Can you look at the speaker without the word? – the word being all the remembrances about the speaker, the reputation, what you have read or not read, and so on – just to observe. Which means one must grasp, understand how the brain operates. Your own brain, not the brains of philosophers, or the spiritual writers, or the priests or somebody or other. Just to observe yourself without the word. Then we can look at certain facts, why human beings get hurt. That is very important to find out. 你是如何了解的? 有用一套觀念做結論 或者看事實的本然? 有看到我們有嫉妒攻擊性、孤獨 恐懼之類的嗎? 整個心理結構、人格面具、我執 就是這一切,對嗎? 你們懷疑這一點嗎?(沒有) 這些都是過去是我們收集的記憶,對嗎? 我曾經害怕過我知道恐懼是什麼 恐懼生起的那一刻我就說這是恐懼 「這是恐懼」這句話就是觀念不是事實 不知道你們是否聽懂了 各位,「樹」這個字不是實際的樹,對嗎? 對嗎? K 這個名字,不是實際的 K 文字不是實物,對嗎? 當你觀察時 你的頭腦就會困在整個文字的網路裡 文字、文字,對嗎? 你能不用文字看自己嗎? 快呀!各位跟我一起玩遊戲,好嗎? 球在你們的場子裡 也就是說你能看自己的妻子、丈夫 子女、女朋友或任何事物 不用文字嗎?不用形像嗎? 那個文字和形象就是分化,對嗎? 你能不用文字看說者嗎? 在你的回憶中 有關說者的文字 和他的名聲你讀過或沒讀過的資訊等 只是單純地觀察 這意味著你必須掌握 了解頭腦如何運作,對嗎? 你自己的頭腦不是哲學家的頭腦 也不是靈性書籍作家教士或其他人的頭腦 只是不用文字地觀察自己 然後我們就能看某些事實 人為何會受傷害?對嗎? 把這一點弄清楚很重要
31:41 From childhood we are hurt – do and don’t do – right? There is always the pressure, always the sense of being rewarded and punished. You say something to me which I don’t... which I get angry about and that hurts me, right? So have we realized a very simple fact that from childhood we are hurt, and for the rest of our life we carry that hurt. Afraid of being hurt further, or attempting that one must not be hurt, which is another form of resistance. So are we aware of these hurts and that therefore we create a barrier round ourselves, the barrier of fear. Can we go into this question: fear? Shall we? Not for my pleasure, for you I am talking about. Can we go into it very deeply and see why human beings, which is all of us, why human beings have put up with fear for thousands of years. We see the consequences of fear. Fear of not being rewarded, fear of being a failure, fear of your own feeling that you must come to a certain point and not being able to, your weakness – right? And all this breeds certain forms of fear. Are you interested in going into this problem? It means going into it completely to the very end, not just saying, ‘Sorry, that's too difficult’. Nothing is too difficult if you want to do it. The word ‘difficult’ prevents you from further action. But if you can put away that word ‘difficult’ then we can go into this very complex problem, not only verbally, which is fairly – we can explain all the causation, all the effects and the effects becoming the cause and so on. It's a chain. 我們從小就被傷害 能做什麼和不能做什麼,對嗎? 始終活在壓力中 始終活在獎懲感裡,對嗎? 你對我說了一句話 我生氣了那句話傷了我,對嗎? 我們是否明白這個非常簡單的事實? 我們從小就受到傷害 終其一生地背負著這個傷害 害怕再度受傷害 或者試圖不讓自己再受傷害 這是抗拒的另一種形式,對嗎? 我們有覺知到這些傷害 因而在自己周圍築起了圍籬 恐懼的圍籬,對嗎? 我們能深入恐懼的問題嗎? 可以嗎? 不是為了我的樂趣我是為你們而說的 我們能非常深入地探查 為什麼人類,也就是我們所有人 會忍受恐懼 長達幾千年之久?對嗎? 我們看到了恐懼的後果 不被獎償的恐懼 失敗的恐懼 對自己必須達到某一點 卻又無能為力的恐懼 你的弱點,對嗎? 這一切會孳生某些形式的恐懼 你有興趣深入這個問題嗎?(有) 這意味著一直深入到底 而不是說:抱歉,太困難了 天下無難事,只怕有心人 「困難」這個詞會阻止你採取進一步的行動 如果你能撇開「困難」這個詞 我們就能深入這個非常複雜的問題了 不只是言說上的深入 我們可以解說所有的因果 以及果如何變成因等 這是一條鎖鏈
35:08 First, why do we put up with it? If you have a car which goes wrong, you go to the nearest garage, if you can, and there the machinery is put right and you go on. Is it that we have not – that there is no one we can go to and he will help us to have no fear – you understand the question? Do we want help from somebody to be free of fear? Psychologists, psychotherapists, psychiatrists, or the priest, confession, or the guru who says, 'Surrender everything to me, including your money, then you will be perfectly all right.' We do this. You may laugh, you may be amused, but we are doing this all the time inwardly. 首先,我們為什麼要忍受恐懼? 如果你的車子故障了 你會想辦法送到最近的修理廠 技師會把它修好,你再繼續上路 是因為我們找不到人 幫助我們擺脫恐懼嗎? 了解這個問題嗎? 我們需要別人的幫助 才能免於恐懼嗎?對嗎? 心理學家、心理治療師、精神病學家 教士、告解,或上師說 把一切都交給我,包括你的錢 你就完全沒問題了 我們會這麼做 你們也許會笑,也許覺得有趣 但我們的內在始終在這麼做
36:31 So, do we want help? Prayer is a form of help, asking to be free from fear is a form of help. The speaker telling you how to be free of fear is a form of help. But he is not going to tell you how. Because we are walking together, we are giving energy to discover for yourself the causation of fear. If you see something very clearly, then you don’t have to decide, or choose, or ask for help, you act – right? Do we see clearly the whole structure, the inward nature of fear? Or you have been afraid and the memory of that comes back and says, ‘That's fear’ – you understand what I am saying? 我們想要幫助嗎? 祈禱是一種幫助的形式 禱求免於恐懼是一種幫助的形式 說者告訴你如何免於恐懼是一種幫助的形式 但他不會告訴你如何做 因為我們一起同行 我們在付出能量 親自探索恐懼的肇因 如果你非常清楚地看一個東西 你就不必做決定 做選擇或要求幫助了你會行動,對嗎? 我們有清楚地看到整個結構 恐懼的內在本質嗎? 或者你一直在害怕 那個來來去去的記憶說那是恐懼 了解我說什麼嗎?
38:00 So let’s go into this carefully. Not, the speaker is going into it and then you agree or disagree, but you yourself are taking the journey with the speaker, not verbally or intellectually, or verbally, but delving, probing, investigating – right? We are finding out – no, we want to delve, as you dig in the garden, or to find water, you dig deep, you don’t stand outside on the earth and say, 'I must have water'. You dig, or go to a river. So first of all, let’s be very clear: do you want help in order to be free of fear? If you want help, then you are establishing an authority – right? You are responsible then for establishing an authority, a leader, a priest. So one must ask oneself, before we go into this question of fear, whether you want help. Of course you go to a doctor, if you can’t do certain things for yourself, if you have pain, or a headache, or some kind of disease, you naturally go to a doctor. There he knows much more the nature of your organ so he tells you what to do. We are not talking about that kind of help. We are talking about whether you need help, somebody to instruct you, to lead you, and to say, 'Do this, do that, day after day, you will be free of fear.' That means we want someone to help us, right? The speaker is not helping! That is one thing certain. Because you have dozens of helpers, from the great religious leaders – God forbid – and to the lowest, you know, the poor psychologist around the corner. So let us be very clear between ourselves that the speaker doesn’t want to help you in any way, psychologically. Would you kindly accept that? Honestly accept it? Don’t say yes – it is very difficult. And all your life you have sought help in various directions, some say, 'Yes, I don’t want help'. It requires not only perception, seeing what the demand for help has done to humanity. You ask help only when you are confused, when you don’t know what to do, when you are uncertain – right? But when you see things clearly, see, observe, perceive, not only externally, but inwardly much more, when you see things very clearly you don’t want any help – there it is! And from that, action. Are we together in this? Let’s again repeat, if you don’t mind. The speaker is not telling you how. Never ask that question ‘how’. Then there is somebody always giving you a rope. So the speaker is not helping you in any way. But together we are walking along the same road, perhaps not at the same speed. But set the speed of your own and we will walk together. Clear? Nous sommes d'accord? 讓我們仔細地深入 不是說者深入你們表示同意或不同意 而是你們跟說者一起踏上旅程 不是言說或知性的探討 而是潛入 探究、調查,對嗎? 我們要找出…不,要潛入 就像在花園挖土找水一樣深入地挖掘 你不能站在外面說我一定要有水 你要挖掘或者去河邊提水 首先,讓我們很清楚地說明 你需要幫助才能免於恐懼嗎? 如果你想要幫助你就是在建立權威 對嗎? 你就要承擔建立權威 領袖、教士的責任,對嗎? 在深入恐懼這個問題以前你必須問自己 你是否需要幫助? 當然你會去看醫生 解決某些你做不到的事 解決疼痛、頭痛或其他疾病 你自然會去找醫生 醫生比你了解器官的有機本質 他會告訴你該怎麼做 我們不是談這種幫助 我們談的是你是否需要幫助 需要某個人指示你、引導你 說你做這個、做那個天天做,你就會免於恐懼 這意味著想要某個人幫助我們對嗎? 說者不會幫助你 這一點是肯定的 因為你有幾十個幫助者 從最偉大的宗教領袖但願你沒有 到最低級的… 街角那個窮心理學家 讓我們先把事情說清楚 說者不想幫助你 不會給你任何心理上的幫助對嗎? 你願意接受嗎? 真誠地接受? 不要說,是的,這非常困難 你的一生都在尋求幫助 有人說,是的,我不要幫助 這不只需要知覺 看到求助對人類帶來的害處 你只會在困惑的時候求助 當你茫然失措或不確定的時候 對嗎? 當你清楚地看事物的時候 看、觀察、感知 不只是看外界而是更多地去看內在 當你非常清楚地看事物時 你不會想要任何幫助答案就在那裡 再從那個答案行動,對嗎? 我們有交會嗎? 如果你不介意讓我們再重覆一遍 說者不會告訴你如何做 千萬不要問「如何做」這個問題 否則就會有人等著給你一根繩子 說者不會以任何方式幫助你 但我們是在同一條路上行進 或許速度不一樣 但…你要設定自己的速度我們要一起走 清楚嗎?
43:14 If you are not clear about demanding help, you will have to go somewhere else. Probably you will. Or turn to a book, or turn to somebody, not towards the speaker. Sorry to depress you. Or to say, ‘Sorry, won’t stretch out my hand’ – that is not it. If we are walking together, we are holding hands together. There is no stretching your hand, seeking help. Right? 如果不把求助弄清楚 你就得去別的地方 或許你會 或者翻書、或向某人求助 不要向說者求助 抱歉讓你失望了 或者說抱歉,我不會伸出援手不是這個意思 如果我們一起走就要手牽手前進 但不是伸手求助,對嗎?
44:01 Are we working together? Or am I working and getting hot about it? 我們有一起同行嗎? 或者我是剃頭擔子一頭熱?
44:16 What is the cause of fear? Go slowly please. Cause. If you can discover the cause, then you can do something about it, you can change the cause. If a doctor tells the speaker he has got cancer – which he hasn’t – suppose he tells me I have got cancer. He says, 'I can remove it easily and you will be all right.' I go to him. He has to remove it. The cause comes to an end. So the cause can always be changed, rooted out – clear? If you have got a headache, you can find the cause of it, if you are eating wrongly, or you are smoking too much, or drinking too much and all the rest of it, either you stop it, your drinking, smoking or you take a pill to stop it. The pill becomes then the effect which stops for the moment the causation. So cause and effect can always be changed, immediately, or you take time over it. If you take time over it, then during that interval all other factors enter into it. So you never change the effect, continue with the cause – clear? Are we together in this? So what is the cause of fear? Why haven’t we gone into it? Why do we tolerate it, knowing the effect of fear, the consequences of fear? If we are not at all afraid psychologically, no fear at all, you would have no gods, you would have no symbols to worship, no personalities to adore. Then you are psychologically extraordinarily free. And also fear makes one shrink, nervous, apprehensive, wanting to escape from it and therefore the escape becomes more important than the fear. You’re following? So we are going to go over together to find out what is the cause of fear. The cause, the root of it. And if we discover it for ourselves, then it is over. Bien? If you see the causation, or many causes, then that very perception ends the cause. Are you listening to me, to the speaker, to explain the causation? Or you have never even asked such a question? I have borne fear, my father, my great grandfather, the whole race in which I am born, the whole community, the whole structure of gods, rituals, is based on fear and the desire to achieve some extraordinary states. Right? 恐懼的肇因是什麼? 請慢慢來 肇因 如果你能發現肇因 那你就會採取行動 你能改變肇因,對嗎? 如果醫生告訴我,告訴說者他有癌症 說者沒有,假設醫生說我有癌症 他說我能輕易地除掉它你就會沒事了 我去找他,他把癌症除掉了肇因就此結束,因此… 肇因隨時可以改變…根除清楚嗎? 如果你有頭痛你可以找出頭痛的肇因 如果你吃錯東西或抽太多煙 或喝太多酒之類的 你要不是停止抽煙或喝酒 就是吃藥片止痛 藥片就變成了結果 暫時停止肇因的果,對嗎? 因此因和果隨時可以改變 立刻改變或經過一段時間 如果要經過一段時間那麼在這個間隔期 其他的因素就會進入 因此你從未改變結果肇因繼續存在 清楚嗎?我們有交會嗎? 那麼恐懼的肇因是什麼? 為什麼我們一直沒有深入它? 為什麼明知恐懼的結果恐懼的後果 卻要容忍它? 如果我們的心理完全不害怕 完全沒有恐懼,你就不會有神了 不會有崇拜的象徵符號 沒有可以仰慕的名人了 你的心裡就會擁有非凡的自由對嗎? 恐懼也會使人畏縮、緊張、憂慮 讓人想要逃避 逃避因此變得比恐懼還重要 聽懂了嗎? 我們要一起探討 找出恐懼的肇因 恐懼的肇因、根源 如果能親自發現肇因就結束了,對嗎? 如果你看到一個或多個肇因 那個知覺本身就會終結肇因對嗎? 你們是要聽我,聽說者 解說肇因嗎? 或者從未問過這個問題? 我承受著恐懼我的父親、曾祖父 我出生的整個種族、整個社區 整個神或儀式的結構都建立在恐懼的基礎上 還有想成就非凡境界的欲望 對嗎?因此…
48:58 So let us go into this. We are not talking about, together we are not talking about various forms of fear: fear of darkness, fear of one’s husband, wife, fear of society, fear of dying, fear of – you know, we are not talking of the various forms of fear. It is like a tree that has got many, many branches, many flowers, many fruits, the flowers become the fruit – but we are talking about the very root of that tree. The root of it, not your particular form of fear. You can trace your particular form to the root of it. So we are asking: are we concerned with our fears, or with the whole fear? With the whole tree, not just one branch of it. Because unless you understand how the tree lives, the water it requires, the depth of the soil and so on, merely trimming the branches won’t do anything. So we must go to the very root of fear. 因此讓我們深入這個問題 我們不是一起在談… 我們不是在談恐懼的各種形式 對黑暗或丈夫、妻子的恐懼 對社會、死亡的恐懼,知道嗎? 我們不是談恐懼的各種形式 就像一棵枝繁葉茂的樹 有許多花,花又變成果實 我們談的是那棵樹的根,對嗎? 樹根 不是你特別的恐懼形式 你可以從特別形式的恐懼追溯到它的根源 我們要問的是我們關心的是自己的恐懼 或是整個恐懼?對嗎? 是整棵樹,不只是一根樹枝 因為除非你了解樹的成長 它需要的水、土壤的深度等 只是修枝剪葉是沒有用的對嗎? 我們必須進入恐懼的根源
50:52 So what is the root of fear? Don’t wait for me. I am not your leader, I am not your help, I am not your guru – thank God! We are together as two brothers, and I mean it, the speaker means it. It is not just words. As two good friends who have known each other from the beginning of time, walking along the same path, at the same speed, looking at everything that is around you and in you. So together we will go into it. Please, together. Otherwise it becomes just words, at the end of the talk you will say, ‘Really, what am I to do with my fear?’ 那麼恐懼的根源是什麼? 不要等我的答案 我不是你的領袖不是你的助力 也不是你的上師,感謝上帝 我們像兩兄弟一樣在一起 我說真話,說者是當真的 不只是空口說白話 我們是兩個好朋友 從時間起始之時就彼此認識 在同一條道路上以同樣的速度行進 看著你周圍和內在的一切事物 因此我們要一起進入請跟我一起 否則就會變成言說 到談話終了時,你會說 說真的我該如何處理我的恐懼?
52:08 Fear is very complex. It is a tremendous reaction. If you are aware of it, it is a shock, not only biologically, organically, but also a shock to the brain. The brain has a capacity, – as one discovers, not from what the others say – it has capacity to remain in spite of a shock, healthy. Certain glands – I don’t know all about it – but the very shock invites its own protection. Right? You go into it for yourself, you will see. So fear is a shock. Momentarily, or it continues in different forms, different expressions, different ways. So we are going to the very root of it. To understand the very root of it, we must understand time – right? Time as yesterday, time as today, time as tomorrow. I remember something I have done, of which I am shy, or nervous, or apprehensive, or fearful, I remember all that, and it continues to the future. Right? I have been angry, jealous, envious – that is the past. I am still envious, slightly modified, because I am fairly generous about things but envy goes on. This whole process is time, isn’t it ? You understand? Say yes, for God’s sake! No, don’t say yes! You understand? 恐懼非常複雜 它是一個巨大的反應 如果你有覺察就知道恐懼是一個衝擊 不只是生理的、有機體的衝擊 也是頭腦的衝擊 你會發現頭腦有能力 不是聽別人說的 它雖然受了衝擊 但仍有保持健康的能力 某些腺體…我並不懂這些 但……衝擊本身就會引發保護作用 對嗎? 你親自深入就會看到 因此恐懼是一種衝擊 暫時的,或以不同的形式 不同的表現或方式繼續 我們要進入它的根源本身 要了解它的根源 就必須先了解時間 對嗎? 時間,也就是昨天、今天或明天 我記得自己做過的某件事 我對此感到害羞、緊張憂慮或恐懼 我記得這一切而且它會持續到未來,對嗎? 我曾經生氣過、羨慕過、嫉妒過這些是過去 我仍然會嫉妒只是略微修正過 因為我對外物表現得相當慷慨 但嫉妒仍然存在,對嗎? 這整個過程就是時間,不是嗎? 了解嗎?看上帝的份上,說了解 不,不要說了解!了解嗎?
54:34 That is, what do we consider time? Let’s begin again. What do you consider is time? By the clock, sunrise, sunset, the evening star, the new moon with the full moon comes a fortnight later? What is time to you? Time to learn a skill? Time to learn a language? Time to write a letter? Time to go to your house from here? All that is time as distance. Right? I have to go from here to there. That is a distance covered by time. Right? So time also is inward, psychological. I am this, I must become that. 'Becoming that' is called evolution. Evolution means from the seed to the tree. And also I am ignorant but I will learn. I don’t know but I will know. Give me time to be free of violence. You are following all this? Give me time. Give me a few days, or a month, or a year, I will be free of it. So we live by time. Not only going to the office every day from nine to five, God forbid, but also time to become something. You understand all this? Right? Time, the movement of time. I have been afraid of you and I remember that fear and that fear is still there, and I will be afraid of you tomorrow. I hope not, but if I don’t do something very drastic about it, I will be afraid of you tomorrow. So we live by time. Be clear on this. Please let’s be clear on this. We live by time. Which is, I am living, I will die. I postpone death as far away as possible but I am living, and I am going to do everything to avoid that, though that is inevitable – right? So psychologically as well as biologically, we live by time. 我們認為時間是什麼?重來一次 你認為時間是什麼? 時鐘、日出日落或夜晚星星的時間 兩週後出現的新月或滿月嗎? 對你來說,時間是什麼? 學一門技術的時間? 學一種語言的時間?寫一封信的時間? 從這裡回到家的時間? 這些都是以距離計算的時間對嗎? 我必須從這裡到那裡 這是用時間跨越的距離,對嗎? 因此時間也是內在的、心理的 我是這個,我一定要變成那個 變成那個叫做演化 演化意味著從種子變成樹 我是無知的,但我會學習 我現在不知道,但以後會知道 給我時間讓我擺脫暴力,對嗎? 懂嗎?給我時間 給我幾天、一個月或一年時間我就能擺脫暴力了 因此我們靠著時間生活 不只是每天朝九晚五的上班但願不是如此 還有想變成什麼的時間 你了解這些嗎?對嗎? 時間,時間的運動 我一直很怕你 我記得那個恐懼 那個恐懼還在那裡 我明天還是會怕你 希望不會,但…如果我不採取激進的辦法 我明天還是會怕你 我們都靠著時間生活,對嗎? 弄清楚,請弄清楚 我們靠時間生活,也就是說我現在活著,但有一天會死 我盡可能地拖延死亡 我現在活著我會想盡一切辦法避免死亡 但你逃避不了死亡,對嗎? 因此心理和生理上 我們都活在時間裡
57:52 Is time a factor of fear? Please enquire. Time, that is, I have told a lie, I don’t want you to know, but you are very smart, you look at me and say, ‘Yes, you have told a lie’, ‘No, no, I have not’ – I protect myself instantly, because I am afraid of your finding out that I am a liar – or partly liar. So I am afraid – right? For something I have done, which I don’t like you to know, and I am afraid of that. Which is what? Thought, isn’t it? I have done something which I remember, and that remembrance says, be careful, don’t let him discover that you told a lie because you have got a good reputation as an honest man and protect yourself. So thinking and time are together. There is no division between thought, thinking and time. Are we clear on this matter? Please be clear on this matter, otherwise you will get rather confused later. The causation of fear is time/thought – the root of it. 時間是恐懼的因素嗎? 請參問這個問題 時間,換言之 我說過謊,我不想讓你知道 但你很聰明,你看著我說 有,你有說謊不,我沒有說謊 我會立刻保護自己 因為我怕你發現我是騙子 或半個騙子 因此我會害怕,對嗎? 因為我不喜歡讓你知道我做了什麼事 我害怕這件事,這是什麼? 是思想,對嗎? 我記得自己做了一件事 這個回憶說,你要小心 別讓他發現你說謊 因為你有誠實的美名 你想保護自己,對嗎? 因此思考和時間是一起的 思想、思考和時間沒有分別 這件事清楚了嗎? 請你們弄清楚 否則以後會很混淆 恐懼的肇因它的根源是時間 ∕ 思想,對嗎?
59:53 Audience: I am not quite clear. 聽眾:我不太清楚
59:55 K: Wait, sir. You can ask questions when there is a question and answer meeting, I believe some time next week. 克:不急,先生 你可以在問答的時段提問 我相信是下星期
1:00:09 So are we clear on this thing that time, that is, the past, with all the things that one has done, and that thought, whether pleasant or unpleasant – especially if it is unpleasant, I want to protect it, or change it, or impossible to change, therefore I say, 'By Jove, I am frightened of it.' Right? Which is thinking about it. So time and thought are the root of fear. This is an obvious fact. A very simple verbal fact. But to go behind the word and see the truth of this time/thought. Then you will inevitably ask: how is thought to stop? A natural question, no? If thought creates fear, which is so obvious, then how am I to stop thinking? You understand my question? Tell me how am I to stop thinking. Because I see the cause is thought, because I remember what I did, I am frightened of it, I don’t want you to find out, so it is thinking. Then I ask you, 'Please help me to stop my thinking.' I would be an ass to ask such a question but I am asking it. How am I to stop thinking? Is that possible? Go on, sir, investigate, don’t let me go on. Thinking. Because we live by thinking. Everything we do is through thought. To write a letter, to learn a language, to go to your office, to do all the business, the whole process of thinking. We went into that carefully the other day. We won’t waste time in going into the cause, the beginning of thinking, how it comes: experience, knowledge, which is always limited, memory and then thought. I am just briefly repeating this. 我們弄清楚時間就是過去了嗎? 一個人做過的所有事 那個思想無論是愉悅的或不愉悅的 尤其是不愉悅的事我會想保護它 或改變它不可能改變的,我就會說 天啊,我害怕它,對嗎? 其實是你在思考它 因此時間和思想是恐懼的根源 這是個明顯的事實非常簡單的字面上的事實 但我們要進入文字的背後 看清時間 ∕ 思想的真相 然後你必然會問 如何停止思想?對嗎? 很自然的問題,不是嗎? 如果思想創造了恐懼這是顯而易見的事 那我該如何停止思考? 了解我的問題嗎? 告訴我,我該如何停止思考? 因為我看見思想是肇因 因為我記得自己做過的事我害怕那件事 我不想被你發現因此這是思考,對嗎? 接著,我請求你請幫助我停止思考 笨驢才會問這個問題 但我卻問了 我該如何停止思考?有可能嗎? 各位,繼續探查不要讓我一直講 思考 因為我們靠思考生活 我們做的每件事都要透過思想 寫信、學語言 上班、處理所有的事務 整個思考過程 前幾天很仔細地探討過 現在不浪費時間討論肇因 思考的來龍去脈 經驗、知識這些都是非常有限的 記憶接著是思想我只是做簡短的重覆
1:03:14 So is it possible to stop thinking? Is it possible not to chatter all day long? Giving the brain a rest, though it has its own rhythm, the blood going up to it, its own activity – its own, not the activity imposed by thought – you understand? There seems to be a lot of trains today! May the speaker point out, that is a wrong question. Who is it that stops thinking? You understand my question? It is still thought, isn’t it? When I say, ‘If I could only stop thinking then I would have no fear’, the very statement that ‘I wish I could stop it’, who is that that wishes to stop thought? It is still thought, isn’t it, because it wants something else? Right? 那麼,有可能停止思考嗎? 有可能不要成天喋喋不休嗎? 讓頭腦休息一下 雖然它有自己的節奏 血液上流到頭腦它有自己的活動 它自己的活動不是思想加諸於它的活動 了解嗎? 今天好像有很多火車 我,說者可以指出來嗎? 這是個錯誤的問題 停止思考的是誰? 了解我的問題嗎? 仍然是思想,不是嗎? 當我說,只要我能停止思考我就沒有恐懼了 「但願我能停止」這一句陳述本身 但願停止思想的是誰? 還是思想,不是嗎?因為思想想要別的東西 對嗎?
1:04:57 So, what will you do? You understand my question? Any movement of thought to be other than what it is, is still thinking! I am greedy, but I must not be greedy, it is still thinking. Thinking has put together all the paraphernalia, all that business that goes on in churches and all that, is put together by thought. Like this marquee or tent is put together carefully by thought. So thought is the very root of our existence, apparently. So we are asking a very serious question, seeing what thought has done, invented the most extraordinary things: computer, the warships, the missiles, the atom bomb, the surgery, medicine – if you like medicine – and also the things it has made man do, go to the moon and so on. Thought is the very root of fear. Right? Do we see that? Not how to end thought. Do we see actually thinking is the root of fear, which is time? Seeing, not the words ‘I am seeing’, but actually see. When you have pain, severe pain, the pain is not different from you, you act instantly. So do you see as clearly as you see the clock, the speaker, and your friend sitting beside you, see that thought is the causation of fear? Please don’t ask, ‘How am I to see?’ The moment you ask how, someone is willing to help you, then you become their slave. But if you if you yourself see thought/time are really the root of fear. Take time, take deliberation. It doesn’t need decision, just the seeing. A scorpion is poisonous, a snake is poisonous, in the very perception of it, you act. 因此…你會怎麼做? 了解我的問題嗎? 任何有別於實然的思想活動 仍然是思考,對嗎? 我貪婪,但我不可以貪婪這仍然是思考 所有附加物都是思考組合的 教堂裡進行的那些事 都是思想組合起來的 就像這個篷帳 是思想仔細組合起來的 因此思想顯然就是存在的根源 我們要問一個非常嚴肅的問題 看見思想的所作所為 發明了最非凡的東西 電腦、戰艦、飛彈、原子彈 手術、醫藥如果你喜歡醫藥的話 還有思想促使人做的事 登陸月球等 思想就是恐懼的根源,對嗎? 我們看見了嗎?不是如何終止思想 有實際看見思考,也就是時間是恐懼的根源嗎? 看見,不是說「我在看」而是實際地看見 當你疼痛的時候,嚴重的疼痛 疼痛與你沒有差別你會立刻採取行動,對嗎? 你能像看鐘錶一樣清楚 像看說者和坐在你旁邊的朋友一樣 看見思想就是恐懼的肇因嗎? 請不要問:我該如何看? 當你問「如何」的那一刻就會有人願意幫助你 接著你就變成他們的奴隸了 但如果你… 如果你親自看見思想 ∕ 時間才是恐懼的根源 這需要時間、需要深思熟慮 不需要決定,只要看 蠍子有毒、蛇有毒 你會在感知的當時採取行動
1:08:32 So one asks: why don’t we see? Why don’t we see one of the causes of war is nationalities – right? One of the causes. Why don’t we see that one may be called a Muslim, and you may be called a Christian – why do we fight over names, over propaganda? Right? Do we see it, or just memorize or think about it? You understand, sirs, that you are – your consciousness is the rest of mankind. Mankind, like you and others, mankind goes through every form of difficulty, pain, travail, anxiety, loneliness, depression, sorrow, pleasure, every human being goes through this. Not only the Swiss, not only you, but every human being, all over the world, whether they be Russian, American, etc. So our consciousness, our being, is the entire humanity. Do you understand? This is so. How unwilling we are to accept such a simple fact. Because we are so accustomed to individuality. Me first. So if you see that, if you see that your consciousness is shared by all other human beings living in this marvellous earth then your whole way of living changes. But we don’t see that. You need argument, you need lots of persuasion, pressure, propaganda, which are all so terribly useless because it is you, that you have to see these things for yourself. 你問:為什麼我們看不到? 為什麼我們看不到國籍是戰爭的肇因之一? 對嗎?許多肇因之一 我們為何看不見?有的人被稱為回教徒 你也許被稱為基督徒 我們何以為了名字和宣傳爭鬥? 對嗎? 我們有看見或只是記憶或思考它? 明白嗎?各位 你的意識就是其他人的意識 人類,包括你和其他人 人類經歷過各種形式的困難 痛苦、磨難、焦慮 孤獨、沮喪、哀傷、享樂 每一個人類都會經歷這些 不只是瑞士人不只是你,而是每一個人類 全世界的人無論俄國人或美國人等 因此我們的意識我們的本體就是整個人類 了解嗎?本來如此 我們有多大的意願接受這個簡單的事實? 因為我們太習於個體了凡事都以我為先 如果你看見這一點看見你的意識是共有的 與這個美好的地球上所有的人類共有的 你整個生活方式就會改變 但我們看不到這一點 你需要論證,需要大量的說服 壓力、宣傳這些都是毫無用處的東西 原因就是你你必須親自看見這些事
1:11:18 So can we, each of us, who are the rest of mankind, who are mankind, look at a very simple fact, observe, see that the causation of fear is thought/time? Then the very perception is action. And from that you don’t rely on anybody. The guru is like you – you understand? The leader may put on different robes and put on all the jewels, just strip him of all that and he is just like you and me. But he has achieved greater power and we also want greater power, money, position, status. So could we look at all this, see it very clearly, and then that very perception ends all this rubbish. Then you are a free person. 我們,每一個人,能不能 我們也是其他的人類 注視這個非常簡單的事實觀察、看 看到恐懼的肇因就是思想 ∕ 時間嗎? 那麼這個知覺本身就是行動 有了這個行動你就不必仰賴任何人了 上師跟你一樣,了解嗎? 領袖也許穿了不同的袍子 全身戴滿了珠寶 把這些剝除以後他只是跟你我一樣的人 但他獲得了很大的力量我們也想要很大的力量 金錢、地位和身份 我們可以看這一切非常清楚地看嗎? 這個知覺本身就會終結所有的垃圾 然後你就是一個自由人了
1:13:18 May we stop? And may we get up? For the speaker to get up you have to get up. 我們可以停止了嗎? 可以站起來嗎? 你們必須站起來說者才會站起來