克里希那穆提 - 美是忘我時的安靜

Krishnamurti Subtitles

SA85T4 - 美是忘我時的安靜
1985年7月17日瑞士沙南
公開談話（四）

1:42	You heard all the announcements. May I also announce that I am going to talk? And also that you are going to share in the talk. It is not a solo but, together, and the speaker means together, not that he is leading you or helping you or trying to persuade you, but rather together, and that word is important, together we take a very long journey. It is rather a difficult path – I won’t use that word, that is a dangerous word – a sentier, a lane, a way that will be rather complex because we are going to talk about self-interest, austerity, conduct and if it is possible in our daily life to end all sorrow. This is a very important question: why humanity, after so many thousands and thousands of years, has never been free from sorrow, not only each one’s sorrow, the pain, the anxiety, the loneliness involved in that sorrow but also the sorrow of mankind. We are going to talk about that. And also, if we have time, we are going to talk about pleasure, and also death.	你們聽過所有的宣佈了我也可以宣佈我要說話了嗎？你們也將參與這個談話這不是獨白而是一起，說者是說一起不是他引導你們或幫助你們或試圖說服你們而是一起這個詞很重要我們一起踏上一趟漫長的旅程一條相當艱困的道路我不用道路這個危險的字眼諸如一條小道，一條小巷一條途徑，這會把事情搞得很複雜因為我們要談的是自利苦行、行為以及是否可能在日常生活中終結所有哀傷這是一個非常重要的問題為什麼人類經過幾千年以後一直無法擺脫哀傷？不只是個人的哀傷痛苦、焦慮哀傷所涉及的孤獨還有全人類的哀傷我們要談這些主題同時，如果還有時間我們還要談享樂和死亡
4:22	It is such a lovely morning, beautiful, clear blue sky, the quiet hills and the deep shadows, and the running waters, the meadow, the grove and the green grass. Also, we should talk over together what is beauty, on such a lovely morning. Could we talk about what is beauty? Because that is a very important question. Not the beauty of nature or the extraordinary vitality, dynamic energy of a tiger. You have only seen tigers in a zoo but the poor things are kept there for your amusement. If you go to some parts of the world that the speaker has gone, he was close to a wild tiger, as close as two feet away. Don’t get excited!	如此美好的早晨美好、晴朗的藍天安靜的山丘和深色的投影奔馳的流水草地、樹叢和綠草我們也應該一起討論美是什麼？在這麼美好的早晨我們可以談談美是什麼嗎？因為這是個非常重要的問題不是大自然的美或一隻充滿活力動能的老虎之美你只看過動物園裡的老虎那些可憐的東西被關在那裡娛樂你如果你去其他地方說者去過的地方他曾與一隻野生老虎近距離接觸過只有兩呎的距離不要激動
6:08	And we should also go into this question because without beauty and love there is no truth. And we ought to examine very closely the word 'beauty'. What is beauty? You are asking that question and so is the speaker asking that question. So we are both together looking, not only at the word, the implications of that word, and the immensity, the incalculable depth of beauty. Should we talk about it? We can talk about it, but the talk, the words, the explanations and the descriptions are not beauty. The word ‘beauty’ is not beauty. It is something totally different. So one must be, if one may point it out, one must be very alert to words. Because our brain works, is active in a movement of words. Words convey what one feels, what one thinks, and one accepts the explanations, descriptions because our whole brain structure, most of it, is verbal. So one must go into it very carefully not only with regard to beauty but also with regard to austerity, with regard to self-interest. We are going to go into all these questions this morning, if we will.	我們也該探討這個問題因為沒有美和愛就沒有真理我們應該很密切地檢視美這個字美是什麼？你在問這個問題說者也在問這個問題我們一起，不只是看美這個字還要看它隱含的意義美的浩瀚和難以蠡測的深度我們應該談嗎？我們可以談美但談話使用的語言解說和描述都不是美美這個字眼不是美美是截然不同的一回事因此我們必須…容我指出我們必須對用字遣詞非常警覺因為我們的頭腦活躍在文字的活動裡文字傳達人的感覺和思考內容人會接受解說和描述因為大腦的整個結構大部分是以言說為主我們必須非常仔細地探究不只是與美有關的事物也包括與苦行有關以及與自利有關的事物今天早上就要探究這些問題如果可以的話
9:13	So we are asking ourselves: what is beauty? Is the beauty in a person, in a face? Is beauty in in the museums, paintings, classical paintings, modern paintings? Is beauty in all the music – Beethoven, Mozart, Bach and all the rest of them? Is beauty in a poem? In literature? Dancing? And all the noise that is going on in the world called music? Is all that beauty? Or is beauty something entirely different? Right? We are going into it together. Please, if one may respectfully point out, don’t accept the words, merely be satisfied with the description and explanations, not agreeing and disagreeing, all that business, let’s put out all that, if we can, from our brain and look at it very carefully, stay with it, penetrate into the word.	我們問自己：美是什麼？是一個人身上或臉上的美嗎？美是… 美在博物館的畫作裡嗎？在那些古典畫、現代畫裡嗎？美在音樂裡嗎？在貝多芬、莫札特和巴哈等人的音樂裡嗎？美在詩作裡嗎？在文學、舞蹈裡嗎？或者在世界各地流行的噪音所謂的音樂裡嗎？這些是美嗎？或者美是一種截然不同的東西對嗎？我們要一起探究這個問題請不要…容我恭敬地指出不要接受文字不要只滿足於描述和解說這不是同意或不同意之類的事讓我們把這些從頭腦裡清空仔細地看這個字與這個字同在，穿透文字
11:27	Because, as we said without that quality of beauty, which is sensitivity, which implies not only the beauty of nature – the deserts, the forests, the rivers and the vast mountains with their immense dignity, majesty, but also the feeling, not the romantic imaginations and sentimental states – those are merely sensations. Is beauty then, we are asking, a sensation? Because we live by sensations. Sexual sensation, with which goes pleasure, and also the pain that is involved in the feeling that it is not being fulfilled, and so on. If we could this morning put out all those words from our brain and look at, go into this enormous question, very complicated, subtle: what is the nature of beauty? We are not writing a poem.	因為我們說過，缺乏了美的品質也就是敏感性不只隱含著大自然的美沙漠、森林、河川以及莊嚴、雄偉的高山峻嶺美也包括感覺不是浪漫的想像和感性狀態這些只是覺受而已那麼我們要問：美是一種覺受嗎？因為我們活在覺受裡性的覺受帶來享樂以及不滿足感的痛苦等所涉及的感覺但願我們今天早上把頭腦裡的這些文字放下注視並探究這個重大的非常複雜又微妙的問題美的本質是什麼？我們不是在寫詩
13:27	When you look at those mountains, those immense rocks jetting into the sky, if you look at it quietly, you feel the immensity of it, the enormous majesty of it. And for the moment, for the second, that tremendous dignity of it, the solidity of it, puts away all your thoughts, your problems, for a second – right? And you say, ‘How marvellous that is’. So what has taken place there? The majesty of those mountains for a second, the very immensity of the sky and the blue, and the snow-clad mountains, drive away all your problems. It makes you totally forget yourself for a second. You are enthralled by it, you are struck by it. Like a child, who has been naughty all day long, or naughty for a while, which he has a right to be, and you give him a complicated toy. And he is absorbed by the toy till he breaks it up. And the toy has absorbed him. You understand? The toy has taken him over and he is quiet, he is enjoying, he has forgotten all his family, the mother, you know, ‘Do this, don’t do that’, and the toy becomes the most exciting thing for him. You understand? The mountain, the river, the meadows and the groves absorb you, you forget yourself. So is that beauty? You understand? To be absorbed by the mountain, by the river, or the green fields, that means you are like a child being absorbed by something else, and for the moment you are quiet, being absorbed, taken over, surrendering yourself to something. Is that beauty? Being taken over? You understand? Surrendering yourself to something great. And that thing forcing you for a second to forget yourself. So then you depend. Depend as the child does on a toy, or depend on a cinema, television, and for the moment you identify yourself with the actor, or the actress. Surely all that is a form of being taken away from yourself – right? Would you consider that state, being taken over, surrendering, being absorbed, that quiet second, is that beauty? When you go to a church, or a temple, or a mosque, there, the chanting, the rituals, the intonation of the voice, everything is so organised, so carefully put together to create a certain sensation, which you call worship, which you call a sense of religiosity. Is that beauty? Or beauty is something entirely different? You understand? Are we understanding this question together?	當你注視那些山脈的時候那些高聳入天的山岩如果你安靜地注視你會感覺到它的浩瀚它雄偉的莊嚴在頃刻之間，在剎那之間那種龐然的莊嚴感紮實感會趕走你所有的思想和問題在那一剎那之間，對嗎？你說，多麼神奇啊！其中發生了什麼事？山脈在剎那間散發的莊嚴天空與蔚藍的浩瀚白雪皚皚的山峰驅逐了你所有的問題讓你在剎那間全然忘我你沉醉其中，受到了震撼像一個整天頑皮的孩子或只是一時的頑皮這是孩子應有的權利你給他一個複雜的玩具他沉浸在玩具裡直到把玩具拆解為止玩具吸引了他，對嗎？玩具掌控了他，他變得安靜了自得其樂，對嗎？忘記了自己的家人忘了母親說的做這個，不准做那個玩具變成最令他興奮的東西了解嗎？山脈、河川、草原和樹叢吸引了你，讓你忘了自己那是美嗎？你了解嗎？被山脈吸引被河流、綠野吸引這意味著你像孩子一樣被一個東西吸引了，對嗎？你在那一刻變安靜了你被吸引、被掌控讓自己臣服于某個事物這是美嗎？被掌控是美嗎？了解嗎？讓自己臣服于一個宏大的東西那個東西迫使你在剎那間忘記了自己然後你有了依賴像孩子依賴一個玩具或依賴電影、電視一樣在那一刻你認同了男、女主角這一切當然都是一種讓你脫離自我的方式，對嗎？你會認為那個狀態被掌控、臣服或吸引的狀態那個安靜的剎那是美嗎？你去教堂、寺廟或清真寺時那裡的唱誦、儀式歌聲的抑揚頓挫等一切都組織得井然有序為了製造某一種覺受非常仔細地組織起來你稱之為崇拜稱之為宗教情操那是美嗎？或者美是一種截然不同的東西？了解嗎？我們有一起了解這個問題嗎？
19:45	Is there beauty where there is self-conscious endeavour? Or there is beauty only when the self is not, when the me, the observer, is not? So is it possible without being absorbed, taken over, surrendering, to be in that state, without the self, without the ego, the me always thinking about itself? You understand my question? Is that possible at all, living in this modern world with all its specialisations, with its vulgarity, its immense noise that is going on – not the noise of running waters, of the song of a bird. But is it possible to live in this world without the self, the me, the ego, the persona, the assertion of the individual? In that state, when there is really freedom from all this, only then there is beauty. You may say, ‘Well, that is too difficult, that is not possible. I prefer looking at a painting, or being in a lovely spot where there is a great sense of silence and quietude.' And, is it possible to have no self-interest at all? Right? We are going to go into that.	自我意識的努力中有美嗎？或者美只存在於無我的時候？那個做為觀察者的我不在的時候？有可能在不被吸引、掌控沒有臣服的情況下處於那個狀態沒有自我、沒有我執我始終思考著自己了解我的問題嗎？我們有可能活在這個專業化的現代世界充斥著粗俗鄙陋大量的噪音喧嘩不是流水的噪音不是鳥的歌聲有可能沒有自我地活在這個世界沒有我、我執和角色沒有對個體的認定嗎？那個狀態裡有擺脫這一切的真自由只有在這種狀態裡才有美你也許會說，這可太難了這不可能我寧可觀賞一幅畫或置身於一個美景裡一個有靜默和寧靜感的地方有可能完全沒有自利嗎？對嗎？我們要探究這個問題
22:18	Is it possible to live in this world without self-interest? What does self-interest mean? What are the implications of that word? How far can we be without self-interest and live here, in the bustle, the noise, the vulgarity, the competition, the personal ambitions and so on? We are going together to find out.	有可能沒有自利地活在這個世界嗎？自利是什麼意思？這個詞隱含了什麼意思？我們能沒有自利到什麼程度卻能活在這個吵雜、喧囂粗俗、競爭和個人野心等的世界裡？我們要一起弄清楚，對嗎？
23:05	Self-interest, you know what that word means so I don’t have to explain. Self-interest hides in many ways, hides under every stone and every act. Hides in prayer, in worship, in having a good profession, in having great knowledge, in having a special reputation, like the speaker. When there is a guru who says, ‘I know all about it. I will tell you all about it’ is there not also self-interest there? One may be an expert, a specialist, skilful and there is this seed of self-interest. It has been with us for a million years. Our brain is conditioned to self-interest. And if one is aware of that, which means just to be aware of it, not to say, ‘I am not self-interested, it is wrong, it is right, how can one live without self-interest?’ You know, all the arguments and pros and cons. Just to be aware how far one can go, how far one can investigate into oneself and find out for ourselves, for each one of us, how far in action, daily activity, how far in our behaviour, how deeply can one live without a sense of self-interest.	自利你們知道這個詞的意思用不著我來解釋自利有許多隱藏的方式隱藏在每一個石頭和行為裡隱藏在禱詞和崇拜裡隱藏在一個好職業里隱藏在偉大的知識裡隱藏在像說者所擁有的一樣的特別的名聲裡當一個上師說我全都知道我會告訴你這一切這句話裡沒有隱藏著自利嗎？你也許是一個專家熟練的專業人員其中就含有自利的種子自利跟著我們一百萬年了我們的頭腦已經被自利制約了如果你覺察到這一點這意味著只是覺察，並不是說我沒有自利心這是錯的，這是對的沒有自利如何生活？你知道的那些贊成和反對的論辯只要覺察你能達到什麼地步你能探究自己到什麼地步？親自去弄清楚，我們每一個人自己去弄清楚在行動中，在日常活動中在我們的行為裡在沒有自利的情況下我們能活得多麼深刻？
25:40	So if you will, we will examine all that. Because – not because, sorry. Self-interest divides, self-interest is the greatest corruption – sorry! The word ‘corruption’ means to break things apart – rompere, to break. And where there is self-interest there is fragmentation, your interest as opposed to my interest, my desire opposed to your desire, my urgency to climb the ladder of success opposed to yours. So where there is self-interest, just observe it, you can’t do anything about it – you understand? Just to observe, to stay with it and see what is taking place. If you have ever dismantled a car, as the speaker has done – and the car ran afterwards! – if you ever have dismantled a car, then you know all the parts, you know how it works and you learn all about it, not merely get into the car and drive off. I am talking of the 1925 cars, at that period they were very simple, very direct, very honest, strong, beautiful cars. And when you know something mechanically, then you can feel at ease. You can know how fast to go, how slow, etc. So if one knows, understands, is aware of our own self-interest then you begin to learn about it – right? You don’t say, ‘I must be against it, or for it. How can I live? Who are you to tell me myself?’ etc. When you begin to be aware – choicelessly, not say, ‘Well, this is my self-interest' but to be aware choicelessly of your self-interest, to stay with it, to study it, to learn it, to observe all the intricacies of it, then one can find out for oneself where it is necessary, where it is completely not necessary, right? It is necessary to live daily, to have food, clothes and shelter and all the physical things. But psychologically, inwardly, is there a necessity to have any kind of self-interest? You understand my question? That is, to investigate relationship, you understand? Because in our relationship with each other there is mutual self-interest. You satisfy me and I satisfy you. You use me and I use you. I sell you, you sell me down the river – you understand all this? In our relationship, is there self-interest? This is important to understand because – sorry I don’t use that word 'because', it is silly.	如果你願意我們就來探究這一切因為…不是因為，抱歉自利會帶來分化自利是最大的腐敗，抱歉！腐敗意味著把東西拆散打破有自利的地方就有分裂你的利益對立於我的利益我的欲望對立於你的欲望我攀登成功階梯的急迫性對立於你的急迫性因此凡是有自利的地方只要觀察你對它無能為力，了解嗎？只要觀察，與它同在看發生些什麼事如果你曾經...拆過車子像說者一樣車子拆解後還能跑如果你拆過車子就會知道所有的零件知道它如何運作你會了解車子的一切不只是坐進去開著上路我是說1925年份的車子那時期的車子非常簡單非常直接、實在、結實又漂亮當你知道一些機械原理時你就會感到自在你會知道該跑多快、多慢等如果我們知道、了解覺察到我們自己的自利你就會開始了解它，對嗎？你不會說我必須反對它或贊成它我該如何生活？你憑什麼這樣告訴我？等等當你開始覺察的時候無揀擇的覺察，不是說好吧，這是我的自利而是毫無揀擇地覺察你的自利與它同在、研究它、了解它觀察它的錯綜複雜然後你就能親自弄清楚什麼地方需要自利？什麼地方完全不需要，對嗎？日常生活需要自利，對嗎？衣、食、住和所有物質的事物但內在的心理層面有需要任何類型的自利嗎？了解我的問題嗎？換言之，要探究關係，對嗎？了解嗎？因為在我們彼此的關係裡就有雙方的互利你滿足我，我滿足你你利用我，我利用你我出賣你你讓我下地獄，對嗎？了解這些嗎？我們的關係裡有自利嗎？了解這一點很重要，因為… 抱歉，我不要用「因為」這個詞太愚蠢了
30:48	To find out if there is self-interest in our relationship. Where there is self-interest there must be fragmentation, breaking up. I am different from you – self-interest.	找出我們的關係裡是否有自利有自利之處必然有分裂破裂，對嗎？我跟你不同，自利
31:16	What is relationship? Relationship to the earth, to all the beauty of the world, to nature, and to other human beings, and to one’s wife, husband, girl, boy and so on? What is that bondage, what is that thing that we say, ‘Yes, I am related’? You understand? Please investigate this thing together. Don’t, please,rely on the description that the speaker is indulging in. Let’s look at it closely. What is relationship? And when there is no relationship we feel so lonely, depressed, anxious, you know, the whole series of movements hidden in the structure of self-interest. What is relationship? When you say, ‘My wife’, ‘My husband’, what do you mean by that? When you are related to God – if there is God – what does it mean? So that word is very important to understand. I am related to my wife, to my children, to my family. Let’s begin there. That is the core of all society – family. In the Asiatic world family means a great deal, to them it is tremendously important, a family – the son, the nephew, the grandmother, grandfather, it is the centre on which all society is based. So when one says, my wife, my girl, my friend, what does that mean? Most of you probably are married, or a girlfriend, or a boyfriend, right? What does it mean to be related? What are you related to? When you follow a guru and say, ‘I am following him’, what are you following? Let’s move away for a second from the wife and husband and we will come back to it a little later. You might rather not like to investigate that question, husband and wife, girl and boy, but we can approach it more quietly. When you follow somebody, a guru, a prophet, when you follow the speaker, or some other person, politician, and so on – what is it you are following? What is it that you are surrendering, giving up? You understand? Is it the image that you have created about the speaker, or the guru, or the image that you have in your brain that it is the right thing to do and therefore I will follow it? Is it the image, the picture, the symbol, that you have built and you are following that, not the person? You understand? Not what he is saying. The speaker has been talking for the last seventy years – right? I am sorry for him! And he has established, unfortunately, some reputation, and the books and all that business, so you have created, naturally, an image, a reputation, and you are following that! Not what the teaching says – right? The teaching says, 'Don’t follow anybody'. But you have the image built, and you are following that which you desire, which satisfies you, which is of tremendous self-interest, right?	關係是什麼？與大地的關係與地球之美、與大自然的關係與其他人類的關係與妻子、丈夫男朋友、女朋友等的關係那個束縛，那個讓我們說「是的，我有關係」的是什麼？了解嗎？請跟我一起探究這件事請不要依賴於說者所耽溺于其中的描述讓我們仔細地看關係是什麼？沒有關係時，我們會感到很孤獨沮喪、焦慮，你知道隱藏在自利結構裡的一整個系列的活動關係是什麼？當你說我的妻子、我的丈夫時你是什麼意思？當你與上帝有關係時如果真有上帝的話你是什麼意思？了解這個詞很重要我跟妻子、孩子和家人有關係讓我們從這裡開始家庭是整個社會的核心家庭在亞洲世界具有很大的意義家庭對他們無比重要兒子、姪子 ∕ 女、祖父母它是整個社會立基的中心當一個人說我的妻子、我的女友和我的朋友時他是什麼意思？你們多數人或許都結婚了或者有男、女朋友，對嗎？有關係是什麼意思？你跟什麼有關係？當你追隨一位上師，並且說：「我在追隨他」時你追隨的是什麼？讓我們暫時離開夫妻的關係待會再回頭談你或許不喜歡探究這個問題丈夫、妻子，男、女朋友我們可以更安靜地探討當你追隨某一個人一個上師或先知的時候當你追隨說者或其他人或政客之類的時候你追隨的是什麼？你臣服或放棄的是什麼？了解嗎？它是不是你所創造出來的關於說者的形象或上師的形象或是你頭腦裡的形象認為這是正確的事因此我要追隨它？它是你建立的形象畫面和象徵嗎？你追隨的是那個形象不是那個人了解嗎？不是追隨他說的話說者已經演說了七十年對嗎？我為他感到遺憾不幸地是，他建立了一些名聲也寫過一些書籍之類的你自然會創造一個形象、名聲你追隨的是那個不是他的教誨說些什麼，對嗎？教誨說，不要追隨任何人但你已經建立了形象所以就追隨你所欲求的能夠滿足你的形象、名聲這含有很大的自利成份，對嗎？
37:41	Now let’s come back to the wife and husband and all the rest of it. When you say, ‘My wife’, what do you mean by that word, what is the content of that word, what is behind the word. Look at it. Is it all the memories, the sensations, pleasure, pain, anxiety, jealousy, all that is embodied in the wife or in the husband? The husband is ambitious, wants to achieve a better position, more money, and the wife not only remains at home but she has her own ambitions, her own desires. So there they are. They may get into bed together, but the two are separate all the time! Let’s be simple with these facts, and honest. And so there is always conflict. One may not be aware of it and say, ‘Oh, no, we have no conflict between us’, but scrape that a little bit with a heavy shovel, or with a scalpel and you'll find the root of all this is self-interest, right? And the self-interest may be in the professionals. Of course there is – doctors, scientists, the philosophers, the priests, the whole thing is based... you understand? Which is, sensation, desire, fulfilment – right? We are not exaggerating, we are simply stating ‘what is’, not trying to cover it up, not trying to get beyond it – there it is. That is the seed in which we are born, and that seed goes on flowering, growing till we die. Or there is a control of all that. You understand? Controlling the self-interest. That very control is another form of self-interest. Bien? How cleverly self-interest operates. And also it hides behind austerity.	我們再回到夫妻的話題和相關的一切事物當你說「我的妻子」時這個詞的意思是什麼？它內容和背後的意義是什麼？了解嗎？注視它它是所有的記憶、覺受享樂、痛苦、焦慮、嫉妒都在妻子的身上具體化了，對嗎？或在丈夫身上？丈夫野心勃勃想爬上更高的職位，賺更多錢妻子也不會安於家庭她也有自己的野心和欲望他們一起生活也許一起上床但他們始終是分離的，對嗎？讓我們接受這個簡單的事實誠實以對因此衝突始終都在你也許沒有覺察，你說噢，不，我們沒有衝突不過… 用鏟子或一把解剖刀輕輕地刮一下就會發現自利的根源，對嗎？自利或許也存在於那些專業人士身上當然包括醫生、科學家哲學家、教士這一切的基礎…了解嗎？也就是覺受、欲望、實現感對嗎？我們沒有誇大其詞只是陳述實然沒有試圖掩飾沒有試圖超越它，它就在那裡這就是誕生我們的種子這個種子會繼續開花直到我們死亡為止或者你會控制這一切了解嗎？控制自利那個控制本身就是另一種形式的自利，對嗎？自利的運作多麼巧詐它也躲在苦行的後面
40:52	So we ought to examine that word, what do we mean by austerity? Right conduct. What is austerity? Because the whole world, especially the religious world, has used that word, has laid down certain laws about austerity, especially for the monks and various monasteries of the West. And also, as there are no monasteries in India and Asia – except in certain Buddhists – in India they are single. You understand? There are no organised monasteries, fortunately. So what do we mean by that word ‘austere’? With which goes great dignity – you understand? What do we mean by that word 'austere'? We looked up in the dictionary what that word means. May I explain what the dictionary says – which is the common usage of a language – it says, it comes from Greek, 'to have a dry mouth'. Which means dry, harsh, not just the mouth, harsh. Is that austere? That is, to deny oneself the luxury of a hot bath, you say, ‘No, I’ll have it cold’, or to have few clothes, or a particular form of robe, taking a vow to be a celibate, to be poor – you understand? To control oneself tremendously, all one’s desires, you know, all the rest of it. Is that austerity? Or austerity is something entirely different? One has those who have fasted, who have sat up straight endlessly, controlling themselves, having a few clothes. Surely all that is not austerity. It is all outward show, right?	我們應該檢視這個詞苦行是什麼意思？正確的行為，對嗎？苦行是什麼？因為整個世界尤其是宗教界都使用這個詞都制定了某些苦行的規則尤其是僧侶以及西方的各種修道院裡印度和亞洲沒有修道院除了某些佛教寺院以外印度人獨修，了解嗎？印度沒有組織化的寺院不幸中的大幸苦行這個詞是什麼意思？它伴隨著高度的尊嚴感了解嗎？苦行這個詞是什麼意思？我們查過字典的解釋我可以說明字典的解釋嗎？它使用的是一般用語它說，這個字來自希臘文意思是「口乾舌燥」也就是說乾燥、嚴厲不只是嘴巴，嚴厲這是苦行嗎？換言之，拒絕享受熱水澡你說，不，我要洗冷水澡或者只擁有幾件衣服或特定形式的僧袍宣誓守獨身、守貧了解嗎？嚴苛地控制自己所有的欲望其他的你都知道，這是苦行嗎？或者苦行是截然不同的東西？那些禁食的人那些無止境地挺直脊梁靜坐的人控制自己，穿很少的衣服這些當然不是苦行只是作秀而已，對嗎？
44:12	So is there an austerity that is not a sensation? That is not contrived at, that is not cajoled, that is not saying, ‘I will be austere in order to...’ Is there an austerity that is not visible at all to another? You are understanding all this? Is there an austerity an austerity that has no discipline. The word 'discipline' means to learn. The sense of... The sense of a wholeness inwardly in which there is no cleaving, there is no breaking, there is no fragmentation. And with that austerity goes dignity, quietness.	有一種不是覺受層面的苦行嗎？一種不做作、沒有詐偽的不是為了什麼目的的苦行有一種別人看不見的苦行嗎？你們了解這些嗎？是否有一種苦行… 一種沒有約束的苦行 ‘約束’意味著學習它的含義是… 內在的…完整感其中沒有分裂、破裂沒有碎片這種苦行伴隨著尊嚴和寧靜
45:46	One has to also, if we have time we must, we have to understand the nature of desire. That may be the root of the whole structure of self-interest. Desire – right? Are we together in this? Desire is a great sensation. Desire is the senses coming into activity. As we said earlier, sensation is of great importance to us. Sensation of sex, sensation of new experience, sensation of meeting somebody who is well-known. I must tell you this lovely story. A friend of ours met the queen of England, shook hands with her and went on with all that kind of stuff. After it was all over a person came up to her and said, ‘May I shake hands with you because you have shaken hands with the queen?’ It is all this, we live by sensation, sensation is tremendously important to us. Sensation of being secure – please watch it – sensation of having fulfilled, sensation of great pleasure, gratification and so on. What relationship has sensation to desire? You understand? Is desire something separate from sensation? Go into this please. It's important to understand this thing. I am not explaining it. We are together looking at it. What is the relationship of desire to sensation? When does sensation become desire? Or are they inseparable? You follow? Or they always go together? Are you working as hard as the speaker is working? Or you are just saying, ‘Yes, go on with it’? Or you have heard this before and say, ‘Oh God, he has gone back to that again’!	我們也要…有時間一定要我們必須了解欲望的本質欲望也許是整個自利結構的根源欲望，對嗎？我們有交會嗎？欲望是一種很大的覺受欲望是感官的活動我們早先說過覺受對我們極為重要性的覺受、新經驗的覺受與知名人物見面的覺受我必須說個可愛的故事我們一個朋友與英國女王見面跟她握手接著是一堆諸如此類的事會面結束後，有一個人走過來說我可以跟你握個手嗎？因為你剛才跟女王握過手這些都是覺受我們活在覺受裡覺受對我們有無比的重要性安全感的覺受，請觀察實現感帶來的覺受大享樂和滿足感的覺受等覺受和欲望有什麼關係？了解嗎？欲望與覺受是彼此分離的東西嗎？請深入，了解這件事很重要我不是在說明我們是在一起注視欲望和覺受有什麼關係？覺受何時變成欲望？或者它們是不可分割的？懂嗎？或者它們始終同進同出？對嗎？你有像說者一樣努力探究嗎？或者只是說，對，繼續說？或者你以前聽過了你說，天啊，他又老調重彈了
49:29	You know, the more you understand the activity of thought, the more you get really at the depth, the root of thought, then you begin to understand so many things. Then you see the whole phenomenon of the world, nature, the truth of nature, and then you ask: what is truth? I won’t go into all that for the moment.	知道嗎？你越了解思想的活動就越能深入思想的根源然後你就開始了解許多事情你會看見世界的整個現象大自然、大自然的真相接著你會問：真理是什麼？目前我不探討這些
50:04	So we live, our life is based on sensation and desire. And we are asking: what is the actual relationship between the two? When does sensation become desire? You are following this? At what second does desire become dominant? I see a beautiful camera, with all the latest improvements. All that you have to do is to lift the camera and look, it is already taken. There is sensation of observation – right? – the seeing the beautiful camera, beautifully made, very complex, and it has great value, as a pleasure of possession, pleasure of taking photos, and all the rest of it. So there is sensation, seeing that camera there. Then what has that sensation to do with desire? When does that desire begin to flower, into action, and say, ‘I must have it’? You understand? Have you observed the movement of sensation, whether it is sexual, whether it is climbing the hills and the valleys, and looking at all the world from a great height, or when you see a lovely garden, see the beautiful garden, and you have a little lawn around your place. And you see this take place and then what takes place that turns the sensation into desire? You are following all this? Please don’t go to sleep – too lovely a morning. If you stay with this question: what is the relationship of sensation to desire, stay with it, not try to find an answer, but look at it, observe it, see the implications of it. That is to stay with it. Then you will discover that sensation, which is natural, that sensation is transformed into desire when thought creates the image out of that sensation. Ha capito? You understand? That is, I have a sensation, there is a sensation of seeing that camera, very expensive, beautiful and so on. There is sensation. Then thought comes along and says, 'I wish I had that camera' – you holding it, you taking the pictures and so on. Then thought creates the image out of that sensation – right? At that moment desire is born. I don’t know, is it clear? Right, sir? Look at it yourself, go into it. You don’t need any book, any philosopher, anybody, just to look at it. To look at it patiently, tentatively, go slowly, then you come upon it very quickly. That is, when sensation becomes or sensation is a slave to thought and thought with its image creates something, at that moment desire is born – right? And we live by desire: 'I must have this. I don’t want it. I must become', this whole movement of desire.	我們活在…我們的生活建立在覺受和欲望的基礎上我們要問的是兩者的實際關係是什麼？覺受何時變成欲望？聽懂了嗎？欲望在哪一個剎那開始支配的？我看到一個漂亮的照相機有最新改良的配備只要拿起相機看著鏡頭相片就拍好了觀察中有覺受，對嗎？看到一個漂亮的照相機製工很美，非常複雜具有很高的價值以及擁有它的享樂拍照的享樂等其他的一切看那個照相機就有覺受那麼…那個覺受與欲望的關係是什麼？了解嗎？那個欲望何時綻放為行動的？讓你說，我一定要擁有它了解嗎？對嗎，各位？你觀察過覺受的活動嗎？無論是性的覺受翻山越嶺從高處俯看世界的覺受或看見一座美麗的花園看到美麗的花園你住處附近有一個小草坪你看到這個活動的發生接著就把覺受變成欲望聽懂了嗎？請不要入睡，早晨太可愛了如果你與這個問題同在覺受與欲望的關係是什麼？與它同在，不要試圖找答案而是注視它，觀察它看見它隱含的意義也就是與它同在接著你就會發現那個覺受，也是自然現象當思想用覺受創造形象以後那個覺受就被轉化為欲望了解嗎？了解嗎？換言之，我有一個覺受我看見照相機時有一個覺受非常昂貴、漂亮等的照相機我有一個覺受接著思想出現了，它說我希望擁有那個照相機你拿著它拍照等接著思想就從那個覺受創造了形象，對嗎？欲望就在那一刻誕生不知道…這麼說清楚嗎？對嗎，各位？注視你自己，進入它不需要任何書本任何哲學家或任何人只要注視它就好耐心地、暫時地注視它慢慢來，你很快就會掌握了如此而已，當覺受變成… 或者說覺受是思想的奴隸思想用它的形象創造出某個東西欲望就在那一刻誕生了，對嗎？我們靠著欲望生活我一定要擁有這個我不要這個，我必須變成… 懂嗎？這整個欲望的活動
55:42	Now, what relationship has desire to self-interest? We are pursuing the same thread. Or, as long as there is desire, which is creating the image out of sensation by thought, as long as there is that desire there must be self-interest. Whether I want to reach heaven, or become a bank manager, or rich person, it is the same. Whether you want to achieve heaven whether one wants to achieve heaven or become a rich man, they are exactly the same. If one desires to be a saint, a noble, and all that business, and the other fellow says, 'I have got a great skill', it is exactly the same thing – right? One is called religious, the other is called worldly. How the words cripple us. You don’t look at things!	欲望與自利是什麼關係？我們在同一條線索上追蹤或者說，只要有欲望在也就是由思想透過覺受而來的形象所創造的只要有欲望，就一定有自利對嗎？無論是想上天堂或變成銀行的經理或變成富人都一樣無論你想上天堂… 無論你想上天堂或變成富人完全是同一回事，對嗎？如果你的欲望是成為一位聖人以及這一類的事另一個人說我必須學一門高深的技術完全是同一回事，對嗎？只是一個被稱為宗教另一個被稱為世俗而已文字如何癱瘓我們，對嗎？你們沒有注視事物
57:13	So we must come to the question – it is now half past eleven – we must come to the question: what is sorrow? Is it sorrow exists as long as there is self-interest? Please go into it. If you understand all this, you don’t have to read a single book. If you really live with this thing, the gates of heaven are open – not heaven, you understand, that is just a form of speech. So we are asking a very serious question which has haunted man from the beginning of his existence, a million years or more. What is sorrow, the tears, the laughter, the pain, the anxiety, the loneliness, the despair? And can it ever end? Or man is doomed for ever to live with sorrow? Go on, sirs. Everyone on the earth – everyone, whether highly placed or nobody at all – everyone goes through this turmoil of sorrow, the shock of it, the pain of it, the uncertainty of it, the utter loneliness of it. And the sorrow of a poor man who doesn’t know how to read or write, when you look at him, when you talk with him, he is like you, he has his own sorrow, and you have your own sorrow. You understand all this? So the sorrow of millions and millions of people who have been slaughtered by the powerful, by the bigoted, tortured by churches, the infidel and the believer – you understand all this? Religions, especially Christianity, have murdered more people than anybody else – sorry! Great wars: hundred years war, thirty years war, of the religious people, church. There is sorrow in the world, right? Sorrow of the man who has nothing, except one meal a day and sleeping on the pavement. You don’t know anything about all that. So there is sorrow. What does that word mean? Is it a mere remembrance of something that you have lost and therefore you feel sorrowful. You had a brother, son or wife, dead, and you have the picture, the photo on the piano, or mantelpiece, or next to your bed. The remembrance of that incident, the memories of all those days, and those memories are suddenly cut off – right? – is that sorrow? Is sorrow engendered, cultivated by memory? You understand all my questions? Do you understand our questioning to each other? Does memory of the things remembered, and when that is cut by death, by accident, old age, or whatever it is – you understand? – when the memory is not, actually not, but the memory continues, is that sorrow? Is sorrow related to memory? Come on, sirs.	我們一定要回到問題上現在11點半了我們一定要回到哀傷是什麼的問題上哀傷與自利並存嗎？請深入它如果你們了解這一切那就連一本書都不用讀了如果你真的與這件事一起生活天國之門就敞開了不是天堂，了解嗎？那只是一種說詞我們在問一個非常嚴肅的問題從人類存在之初就困擾著我們的問題大約有一百萬年之久或更多哀傷是什麼？眼淚、歡笑、痛苦焦慮、孤獨、絕望是什麼？它有終結的時候嗎？或者人註定要永遠活在哀傷裡？繼續，各位地球上的每一個人，每一個人無論權高位重或無名之輩每一個人都會經歷這種哀傷的混亂哀傷的震撼和痛苦不確定感、徹底的孤獨一個窮人的哀傷一個不識字的窮人當你注視他，跟他談話的時候他也像你一樣他有他的哀傷，你有你的哀傷了解這些嗎？數百萬人承受著哀傷這些人被有權勢、狂妄之徒屠殺被教會折磨那些信神的和不信神的了解我的意思嗎？宗教，尤其是基督教謀殺的人比任何人都多，抱歉！偉大的戰爭百年戰爭、三十年戰爭宗教人士發動的，教會世界有哀傷，對嗎？那些一無所有者的哀傷他們日食一餐、露宿街頭你們對這些事一無所知因此人有哀傷哀傷這個詞是什麼意思？只因為回想起了某些你所失去的東西才因此感到哀傷嗎？你的兄弟、兒子或妻子死了你把他們的照片擺在鋼琴上壁爐或床邊你回憶起那件事情那些日子的記憶那些記憶突然被切斷了，對嗎？這是哀傷嗎？哀傷是由記憶產生、培養的嗎？了解我所有的問題嗎？了解我們彼此的質問嗎？對事物的記憶當那個記憶被死亡、事故、衰老或其他事物所切斷時，了解嗎？記憶並不存在，沒有實存但卻繼續著這是哀傷嗎？哀傷與記憶有關嗎？回答啊，各位
1:02:58	I had a son, or a brother, or an aunt. I like – I will use the word ‘like’ for the moment. I call that like love. I liked those people very much. I lived with them. I have chatted with them. We played together. All that memory is stored. And my son, my brother, my mother, dies, is taken away, gone forever. And I feel a shock, shed tears, and I feel terribly lonely. And I run off to church, temple, pick up a book, do this or that, to escape. Or say, 'Well, I will pray and get over it. Jesus will save me'. You know all that business. Sorry, I am not belittling the word. Or use the other word – Buddha, or Krishna in India – you follow? It is the same thing with different names. Or the same symbol, the same content of the symbol – symbols vary but it is the same content.	我有個兒子、兄弟或姑媽我喜歡…我暫時用喜歡這個詞我把這種喜歡稱為愛我非常喜歡那些人跟他們一起生活、聊天我們一起遊戲所有的記憶都儲存起來我的兒子、兄弟、母親死了被帶走了，一去不回我感到震撼、流淚感覺非常孤單我跑到教堂、寺廟或拿起一本書做這個、做那個來逃避或者說，好吧我要禱告來撫平它耶穌會救我你知道這一類的事抱歉我沒有貶低這個詞的意思或者其他詞語——佛陀或印度的克里虛納了解嗎？意思一樣，只是名字不同或者同一個象徵象徵所包含的內容一樣象徵不一樣，但內容一樣
1:04:35	So is sorrow merely the ending of certain memories, actually – though I have memories but the actuality that brought together those memories has ended, therefore I feel I am lost. I have lost my son. Is that sorrow? Or – we are not being harsh, just examining it – self-pity? Concerned more with my own memories, pain, anxiety, than the ending of somebody – you understand? Is sorrow self-interest? Please go into it all. And I cultivate that memory. I am loyal to my son. I am loyal to my former wife – though I marry a new wife – I am very loyal to my... which is the remembrance of those things that have happened in the past. Is that sorrow? Or there is the sorrow of failure, success, you know, the whole momentum of self-interest identifying itself with that word and shedding tears. And these tears have been shed by man and woman for a million years. And we are still crying. The war in Lebanon, in Afghanistan, the brutality of all that. And the Afghanese and the Lebanese are crying, shot to pieces because of an idea that we must dominate, we must be different. Right? The idea. Thought is destroying each other. And think of all the people who have cried before you.	哀傷只是某些記憶的結束嗎？雖然我有記憶，但實際… 但把記憶串聯起來的實際的存在體卻結束了因此我感到失落我失去了兒子這是哀傷嗎？或者…我們不是苛求只是在檢視，是自艾自憐嗎？我關心自己的記憶、痛苦、焦慮多於某個人的死亡，了解嗎？哀傷是自利嗎？請深入問題我培養那個記憶我忠於我的兒子我忠於我的前妻雖然我娶了一個新妻子我忠於我的回憶也就是過去發生的那些事件這是哀傷嗎？或者有失敗或成功的哀傷嗎？你知道，自利的整個動力自利與哀傷這個詞相認同，為此而流淚一百萬年以來男人、女人都為此流淚，對嗎？而且至今還在哭泣黎巴嫩和阿富汗的戰爭戰爭的殘暴等一切阿富汗人和黎巴嫩人都在哭泣被槍彈打成碎片為了一個觀念：即我們必須主宰必須有所不同，對嗎？觀念思想讓我們彼此摧毀想想那些在你之前哭泣的人
1:07:16	So is there an end to sorrow? The word 'sorrow' also implies passion. As long as there is self-interest identifying itself with those memories which have gone, which are still there but the actuality is gone, that self-interest is part, partial – is the movement of sorrow. Can all that end? Where there is sorrow there cannot be love. So what is love? You understand? Can we go on tomorrow – sorry, Sunday? Or shall we go on with it now? 'Allez-y!' You know, we have entered into very serious subjects, all this. It is not just something you play with for a Sunday or Wednesday morning. It is something deeply serious, all this. It is not galloping down the road. It is walking in the path very slowly, watching things, you know, watching, watching, watching, staying with things that disturb you, staying with things that please you, staying with things that are abstract – all the imaginations, all the things that the brain has put together, including God. It is the activity of thought. God didn’t create us. We created God in our image, – well, I won’t go into this, it is so clear and simple.	那麼哀傷會結束嗎？哀傷也隱含了熱情的意思只要有自利就會認同已失去事物的記憶記憶仍在但實際的事物已經逝去了自利是一部分，局部的它是哀傷的活動，對嗎？這一切能結束嗎？有哀傷的地方就不會有愛那麼，愛是什麼？了解嗎？我們可以明天…抱歉星期日再談嗎？或者要現在講？那就講吧！我們談過非常嚴肅的話題所有相關的事這不是週日或星期三早上讓你把玩的東西這是有深度嚴肅性的東西不是在路上奔馳而是非常緩慢地在路上行走觀察事物你知道，觀察、觀察、觀察與困擾你的事物同在與帶來享樂的事物同在與抽象的事物同在那些想像的事物那些由頭腦組合起來的事物包括上帝在內這是思想的活動上帝沒有創造我們是我們用想象創造了上帝好吧，我不細說了這種事太清楚、太簡單了
1:09:56	So to talk about love, which also implies death. Love, death and creation. You understand? We can spend an hour on this because it is very serious. We are asking: what is creation? Not invention. Please differentiate between creation, invention, new set of ideas. That is, new set of ideas. And those new sets of ideas are inventions, technologically, psychologically, scientifically and so on. We are not talking about ideas. We are talking about very serious things, that is, love, death and creation. This cannot be answered in five minutes. Forgive me. We will deal with it next Sunday – not that I am inviting you. We will go into this. And also what is religion, what is meditation, if there is something that is beyond all words, and measure and thought. You understand? Not put together by thought. Something that is inexpressible, infinite, timeless – we will go into all that. But one cannot come to it – for it to exist – if there is fear, lack of relation, right relation, you follow? Without all that, your brain free from all that, you cannot understand the other. Right? Now may we stop?	因此要談愛，愛也暗示著死亡愛、死亡和創造，了解嗎？這要花一小時的時間因為這是非常嚴肅的問題我們要問：創造是什麼？不是發明請區別創造和發明新觀念兩者之間的差異，了解嗎？也就是一套新觀念這一套新觀念是發明物科技、心理和科學等的新觀念我們不談觀念我們談非常嚴肅的事也就是愛、死亡和創造這些無法在五分鐘內解答原諒我我們明天…下星期日再談我不是在邀請你們來到時再探討這個還有，宗教是什麼？冥想是什麼？是否有一個超越所有言說計量和思想的東西？了解嗎？不是由思想組合的東西是一種難以言說的東西無限、超越時間的我們會探討這一切但你無法觸及它如果有恐懼缺乏關係，正確的關係它也無法存在，懂嗎？缺了這些，你的頭腦缺乏了這些東西你也無法了解別人對嗎？可以結束了嗎？