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SA85T5 - 靜默是永恆的基礎
1985年7月21日 瑞士沙南
公開談話(五)



1:50 This will be the last talk at Saanen. We will continue at Brockwood, in England. 這是在瑞士沙南的最後一次談話 我們會在布洛克伍德繼續談 英國
2:14 May we continue what we were talking about last time that we met here? We were saying among other things that this is not a lecture. A lecture is meant to inform, to instruct on a particular subject. This is not a lecture, nor is it an entertainment. Entertainment means amusing yourself, or going to a cinema, or going to a ritual in a church, or in a temple, or a mosque. This is not an entertainment. Nor is it a mere matter of intellectual, theoretical, psychological – what word shall we use? Psychological pursuit. Philosophical pursuit, rather. Philosophy means love of truth, not talking about what has already been talked about. And we are not discussing, or concerned with what others have said. We are together, you and the speaker, as two human beings. You, not this large audience but you as a person, and the speaker are having a conversation together, about their life, about their problems, about all the travail of life. Their confusion, their fears, their aspirations, their desires to achieve success, either in the business world or in the so-called religious world, or in the spiritual world. That is, success. To reach Nirvana, Heaven, or Enlightenment is the same as success in the business world. I hope we understand each other. It is not much difference. A man who is successful in life, making pots of money, then grows, expands, changes and continues in the line of success. There is not much difference between that person or the so-called – the man who is seeking truth, achieving something of a success in that direction. Both are seeking success. One you call worldly, the other you call non-worldly, spiritual, religious. We are not dealing with either of those two. We are concerned, you, as a human being, single, or double, and the speaker, are having a conversation together. He means together, you sitting there and unfortunately the speaker sitting up here. So it is between you and the speaker. 我們可以繼續談 上一次在這裡談的話題嗎? 我們談了許多事,也說過 這不是講課 講課的用意是告知 或指示一個特別的主題 這既不是講課,也不是娛樂 娛樂的用意是討自己開心 或者去電影院 或去參加教堂 寺廟或清真寺的儀式 這不是娛樂 也不只是知性的 理論的或心理學的… 我們該用哪個詞? 心理學的追求 不妨說是哲學的追求吧 「哲學」意味著愛真理 不是談一些陳腔濫調 我們不是來討論 或關心別人說過的話 我們在一起,你和說者 以兩個人的身份 你,不是指一群聽眾 而是你這個人,與說者 在一起談話 談他們的生活和問題 以及生命的所有磨難 他們的困惑、恐懼、渴望 想成功的欲望 無論是世俗的事務 或所謂的宗教界 或靈性的世界 也就是成功 想證入涅槃、上天堂或開悟 它們與世俗的成功是同一回事 希望我們彼此了解 沒有太大的差別 一個在生活上成功的人 賺了一大堆錢 繼續在成功的路線上 成長、擴展和改變 這個成功的人 與所謂追求真理的人沒有差別 他在這個方向上成功了 兩者都在追求成功 一個稱為世俗的另一個稱為非世俗的 靈性的、宗教的成功 這兩種人我們都不談 我們關心的是身為人類的你 單身或有伴侶 與說者一起談話 他說的是一起 你坐在那裡說者不幸地坐在台上 這是你和說者之間的談話
7:26 You and the speaker have been talking about relationship, between man and woman, boy and girl and so on. We have been also talking about fear, whether it is at all possible, ever, in life, living in the modern world, to be utterly free, psychologically, of all fear. We went into that very, very carefully. And also we talked about time, time by which we live, the cycle of time, which is – the cycle of time which is the past being processed in the present and continues in the future. The past being our whole background: racial, communal, religious, experiences, memories, all this is that background of all of us, whether we are born in the distant East or in Europe, or in America. That civilisation, that culture is the background of all of us. That background goes through changes, it is processed in the present and continues to the future. Human beings, you and another, are caught in this cycle. That has been going on for millions and millions of years. So the past going through the present, modifying itself, is the future. And that has been our evolution. Though we biologically have changed from a million years ago until now, but psychologically, inwardly, subjectively we are more or less what we were a million years ago – barbarous, cruel, violent, competitive, self-centred, egocentric. That is a fact. So the future is the present. Right? Is this clear to you and to the speaker? The future. That is the past modifying itself which becomes the future, that future is now, unless there is a fundamental, psychological change. Are we together? And that is what we are concerned about: whether it is possible for human beings, you and another, to bring about psychological mutation, psychological total revolution in oneself, knowing if we are hurt now, wounded psychologically, as most people are, modifying itself in the present but goes on in the future. So the future hurt is now. Is that clear? Nous sommes d’accord? Vous et moi. 你和說者談過關係的問題 男人和女人或男、女朋友的關係等 我們也談過恐懼 活在現代的世界裡 在生活中,是否可能徹底擺脫 所有心理上的恐懼? 我們非常、非常仔細地探討過 我們也談過時間 生活所依靠的時間 時間的循環,也就是… 也就是過去 經過現在的加工以後 再繼續進入未來 過去是我們的整個背景 種族、社區、宗教 經驗、記憶 這些構成了我們的背景 無論出生在遠東 在歐洲或美國 那個文明 那個文化是我們所有人的背景 那個背景經歷過許多改變 經過現在的加工 再繼續進入未來 人類──你和其他人都困在這個循環裡 這個過程經過幾百萬年之久 因此通過現在修正的過去 就是未來 這就是我們的演化 雖然我們在生理上改變了 從一百萬年前到現在 但內在的心理和主觀上 仍然和一百萬年前不相上下 野蠻、殘酷、暴力、競爭 自我中心、我執中心 這是事實 因此未來就是現在,對嗎? 你和說者都清楚嗎?未來 也就是自我修正的過去 變成了未來 那個未來就是現在 除非發生根本的、心理的改變 我們有交會嗎? 這才是我們要關心的事 人類,你和其他人 有沒有可能引發 一次心理上的突變 個人內在的、心理上的全然革新? 是否知道自己 像多數人一樣受過心理的創傷 在現在做了修正 但卻繼續進入未來 因此未來的創傷就在現在? 清楚嗎? 我們都同意嗎?你和我
12:49 So is it possible for human beings, for you, to completely bring about a mutation? That mutation changes the brain cells themselves. That is, if one has been going North all one’s life, some person comes along and says, 'Going North has no importance at all, no value, there is nothing there. Go East, or West, or South.' And because you listen, because you are concerned, because you are deliberate, you go East. That very moment when you turn and go East there is a mutation in the brain cells altogether because going North has become the pattern, the mould, and when you go East you break the pattern – right? It is as simple as that. But that requires not only listening, not merely to words, not merely with the hearing of the ear, but also listening without any interpretation, without any comparison, listening directly, then that very listening breaks down that conditioning. Not bring up all your traditions, your background, your interpretation, none of that, but like when a child listens to a good story, he puts all his naughtiness aside and listens. 人類,也就是你 能徹底地引發一次突變嗎? 改變腦細胞本身的突變 換言之,一生都在往北走的人 有一個人過來說 往北走毫無重要性、毫無價值 北方一無所有 向東方、西方或南方走吧 因為你傾聽,因為你關心 因為你審思,你會往東方走 你轉向東方的那一刻 腦細胞就會發生一次突變 因為往北走已經變成了一個模式、模型 往東走就打破了這個模式,對嗎? 就這麼簡單 但這不只需要傾聽 不只是言說上的傾聽 不只是用耳朵聽 也是不帶任何詮釋的傾聽 沒有任何比較 直接地傾聽 這種傾聽本身就會打破那個制約 不會引出你的傳統 你的背景、詮釋,一個都沒有 而是像孩子聽好故事一樣 他放下了頑皮,傾聽
15:19 And also we talked about seeing. Seeing very clearly what is, what is happening in the present world: wars in Afghanistan, the most appalling things are going on there. In Lebanon, in South America, the Far East. Man from a million years or two million years ago killed with a club, then he invented an arrow. He thought that would stop all wars. Now you can vaporise millions and millions of people with one bomb. We have progressed tremendously outwardly, technologically. The computer is going to take over probably all our thinking. It will do better, far better than we can, in a second. And I do not know if you have gone into this question, but you should. What is going to happen to the human brain when the computer can do almost anything that you can do, except of course sex, it can’t look at the stars and say, 'What a marvellous evening it is!' It cannot possibly appreciate what beauty is. So what is going to happen to the human brain? Will it wither when the laser, computer, can take all that over from you? It will save a lot of labour. So either we turn to entertainment, the tremendous weight of the entertaining industry, sport. Or another form of it: go to a church, temple, mosque, to be entertained – sensation. Or turn in a totally different direction. Because psychologically, inwardly, you can go limitlessly. The brain has an extraordinary capacity, each one’s brain. Look what technology has done. But psychologically, subjectively, we remain what we are, year after year, century after century: conflict, struggle, pain, anxiety and all the rest of it. That’s what we talked about over the last four talks, three talks – wasn’t it three talks? 我們也談過看 非常清楚地看事物的本然 看世界現在發生些什麼 阿富汗戰爭 發生了最駭人聽聞的事 在黎巴嫩、南美和遠東 一兩百萬年前的人類 用木棒殺人 接著又發明弓箭 他以為這會阻止所有的戰爭 如今,只要一顆炸彈 就能摧毀百千萬條人命 我們有了突飛猛進 外在的、科技的進步 電腦或許即將接管 我們所有的思考 做得比我們更好,或許一秒之內就遠超過我們 不知你是否探究過這個問題 你應該探究 人類的大腦會發生些什麼 當電腦能取代你做幾乎任何事的時候 當然除了性以外 電腦無法看著星星說 多麼神奇的夜晚呀! 不可能領略美是什麼 人腦會發生什麼事? 它會萎縮嗎? 當雷射和電腦能取代你 就會節省大量的勞力 我們若不是轉向娛樂 規模龐大的娛樂業、體育運動 或另一種形式的娛樂去教堂、寺廟、清真寺 獲取覺受的娛樂 或者…轉向一個截然不同的方向 因為心理、內在的境界是無限的 頭腦擁有非凡的能力 每一個人的頭腦 看看科技做了什麼 但心理上、主觀上我們依然故步自封 年復一年一個世紀接著一個世紀 衝突、掙扎、痛苦 焦慮和其他的一切 這是我們前三、四次談話的內容 是三次嗎?
19:29 Audience: Four talks.

K: Right, thank you.
聽眾:四次

克:對,謝謝你
19:36 And we also talked about thought. What is the nature of thinking, what is thinking. We went into that very carefully. All thought is memory, based on knowledge. Knowledge is always limited, whether now or in the past or in the future. Knowledge is always, perpetually, eternally limited because it is based on experience. Experience, which is always limited, so knowledge is limited, memory, thought – that is the process of our thinking. And thought has invented all the rituals in all the religious places. It has invented gods through our fear, and so on. We talked about that at considerable length and in detail. 我們也談過思想 思考的本質是什麼?思考是什麼? 我們很仔細地探討過 所有的思想都是記憶 都建立在知識的基礎上 知識始終是有限的 無論現在、過去或未來 知識始終、永遠恆常不變的有侷限性 因為它建立在經驗上 始終有限的經驗 因此知識、記憶、思想都有限 這就是我們思考的過程 所有宗教場所的儀式 都是思想發明的 它透過我們的恐懼發明了上帝,等等 我們用很長的時間 相當詳細地談過這一點
21:06 This morning we ought to talk over together, you and the speaker together, not the whole audience. There is no whole audience, there is only you and the speaker. We ought to talk over together, you and the speaker, about love, death, what is religion, what is meditation, is there anything beyond all the human endeavour, or is man the only measure? Is there something beyond all structure of thought, is there something that is timeless? This is what we have to be concerned with, you and the speaker this morning. Is that all right? 今天早上,我們應該一起談 你和說者一起 不是全部的聽眾 沒有全部的聽眾 只有你和說者 我們應該一起,你和說者 討論愛 死亡 宗教是什麼? 冥想是什麼? 有任何超越人為努力的東西嗎? 或者人是唯一的衡量標準? 有一個超越思想結構的東西嗎? 有一個超越時間的東西嗎? 這才是我們,你和說者 今早必須關心的事 這樣可以嗎?
22:41 We live by sensation. We talked about that. Our whole structure is based on sensation – sexual, imaginative, romantic, fanciful and so on. And also, as we said, self-interest is the greatest corruption. And is sensation, that is the stimulation of the senses, is that love? We are investigating this thing, you and the speaker together. We are taking a very long journey. It is a long lane, you and the speaker are walking together. Not that he is ahead and you follow, but together, step in step. Perhaps holding hands together, friendly, not dominating either each other, trying to impress each other. So we are, you and the speaker, walking quietly, exploring, investigating, watching, listening, observing. 我們憑著覺受生活 我們談過這一點 我們的整個結構都建立在覺受的基礎上 性的、想像的 浪漫的、幻想的,等等 此外,我們也說過 自利是最大的腐敗 覺受 也就是感官的刺激 是愛嗎? 我們在探討這件事 你和說者一起 踏上一條很漫長的旅程 這是一條漫長的路線 你和說者要一起行進 不是他走前面,你跟在後面 而是一起,一步一步地走 或許像朋友一樣手牽著手 沒有誰支配誰 或誰想影響誰的問題 我們,也就是你和說者安靜地行走 探索、調查 眼看、耳聞、觀察
24:53 So we are asking each other: what is love? That word has been spoilt, spat upon, degraded. So we must be very alert to the abuse of that word. So what is love? Is it mere sensation? I love you and I depend on you, you depend on me. Perhaps I sell you and you sell me. I use you, you use me. If the speaker says, ‘I love you’ because you are there, and you feed my vanity, because you are a very large audience and I feel happy, pleased, gratified. So is gratification, fulfilment, attachment, is that love? Is love put together by thought? So you and the speaker are investigating together, so don’t go to sleep. It's a nice, lovely morning. 我們彼此質問:愛是什麼? 愛這個字眼已經被糟蹋了 被唾棄、墮落了 我們必須非常警覺不要濫用這個字 什麼是愛? 愛只是覺受嗎? 我愛你,所以我依賴你 你也依賴我 或許我會出賣你 你也會出賣我 我利用你,你也利用我 如果說者說我愛你,因為你坐在那裡 你滿足了我的虛榮心因為你們是一大群聽眾 我感到快樂、歡喜和滿足 滿足、實現、執著是愛嗎? 愛是由思想組合起來的嗎? 因此你和說者要一起探查 不要睡覺,今早的天氣很美
27:00 So is love sensation? Is love gratification? Is love fulfilment? Dependence? And is love desire? Please, investigate it together, don’t, please, agree or disagree. We went into that thing – we always approach anything by either we agree or disagree. If we could put aside altogether from our vocabulary, from our brain, saying ‘I agree’ and ‘I don’t agree’. ‘My opinion is this and your opinion is that’ – judgements. If we could put aside all that and just face facts as they are, not only in the world, but also in ourselves. Things as they are. That demands great honesty, the urgency of honesty. Can we do that this morning and face things as they are, not imagine romantically, or sentimentally, or it is our tradition – putting aside all that? Then we can begin to question, enquire into what is love. 愛是覺受嗎? 愛是滿足感嗎? 愛是實現感嗎? 是依賴嗎? 愛是欲望嗎? 請你們一起探究 請不要同意或不同意 我們探討過這件事 我們始終以同意或不同意處理任何事物 但願我們能放下自己的字彙 放下頭腦裡的我同意或不同意 這是我的意見那是你的意見,判斷 但願我們放下這一切 只是面對事實的本然 不只是外在的世界也包括我們的內在 看事物的本然 這需要大量的誠實 對誠實的急迫性 我們今早能做到嗎? 如實地面對事物 不是浪漫或感性的想像 或者說這是我們的傳統把這些全部放下 接著我們就可以質問、參究愛是什麼了
29:07 We said, is it sensation? Desire? As we said previously in these talks, we went into the question very deeply, into the whole structure of desire. We haven’t time to go into that all over again. To make it very brief, desire is the result of sensation, and to that sensation, thought gives a shape, an image – you understand? That is, sensation, then thought gives an image to that sensation, and at that second when thought moulds the sensation, at that second desire is born. We have gone into that. 我們問過,愛是覺受嗎?是欲望嗎? 先前的談話中也談過 我們非常深入地探討過 欲望的整個結構 現在沒有時間再重述一遍了 長話短說 欲望是覺受的結果 思想也會賦予覺受 一個造型或形象 了解嗎? 也就是說,覺受生起 思想再把形象賦予那個覺受 當思想塑造覺受的那一剎那 欲望就在那一剎那誕生了 我們探討過
30:29 So we are asking: is love desire? Is love thought? Please go into it. It is your life we are concerned, each one of us, our lives, our daily lives, not some spiritual life, following some guru with his inanities, putting on special robes and all the rest of it, the robes of Middle Ages – that is, in the churches – or the robes of recent gurus. It is very important, this question. Is love merely the structure of thought? In our relationship with each other, man, woman, boy and girl and so on, apart from sexual sensations, when one says to another, ‘I love you’, is it dependence? One is fulfilling himself, or herself in another and therefore in that relationship thought comes in, and then the thought creates the image, and that image we call love. Or call that image love. So we are asking: is love – it is unfortunate to use that word – is love put together by thought? Is love antagonism? Can there be love when there is ambition? When we are competing with each other? Is there love when there is self-interest? Please don’t merely listen to the speaker. Listen to yourself. Listen, find out for yourself. When you discover through what actually is you can go very far. But if you merely depend on another, his words, his books, his reputation, that is meaningless. Throw all this away and one has to look at oneself. One has to have passion. Passion can exist only, as we said the other day, when suffering ends. Passion without fanaticism, which then becomes terrorism – all the fanatical movements in the world they have got tremendous passion. Fanaticism breeds passion. That passion is not the passion which comes into being when there is the ending of sorrow. We went into that. So we are asking: is love all this? Jealousy? Which is, in hate, anger, desire, pleasure and so on, is it all love? Dare we face all this? Are you, and the speaker, honest enough to discover for ourselves the perfume of that word? 我們要問:愛是欲望嗎? 愛是思想嗎? 請深入這個問題 我們關心的是你的生活每一個人的生活 我們的生活,日常生活不是什麼靈性生活 追隨某一個愚蠢淺薄的上師 穿著特別的僧袍之類的東西 在教堂裡穿著中世紀的僧袍 或一些近代上師的僧袍 這個問題非常重要 愛只是思想的結構嗎? 在我們彼此關係中的愛 男人、女人,男、女朋友等 除了性的覺受以外 當一個人對另一個人說「我愛你」的時候 這是一種依賴嗎? 是在別人身上滿足自己嗎? 因此思想就進入了那個關係裡 接著思想就創造形象 我們就把那個形象叫做愛 或稱那個形象是愛 我們要問的是:愛... 很不幸要用這個字眼 愛是由思想組合的嗎? 愛是敵對嗎? 野心裡會有愛嗎? 當我們彼此競爭的時候 有自利的時候,有愛嗎? 請不要只聽說者的話 傾聽你自己 傾聽,親自找出答案 當你透過實然探索時 你就能非常深入 但如果你只是依賴別人 別人的話語、書本和名聲 這是毫無意義的事 把這些全丟掉,你必須看自己 你必須有熱情 我們前幾天說過 熱情只能在受苦結束時存在 沒有狂熱的熱情 有了狂熱的熱情就會變成恐怖主義 世界上所有的狂熱運動份子 都具有龐大的熱情 狂熱會孳生熱情 哀傷結束後生起的熱情 不是那種熱情 我們探討過這一點 我們要問:愛是這些嗎? 是嫉妒嗎?憎恨、忿怒 欲望、享樂等是愛嗎? 我們敢面對這些嗎? 你和說者有足夠的誠實 親自發現那個字的芬芳嗎?
36:04 And from that we ought to consider what place has death in our life. Death, talking about it, is not morbid. It is part of our life. It may be from childhood until we actually die, there is always this dreadful fear of dying. Aren’t you afraid of death? We have put it as far away as possible. So let us enquire together; what is that extraordinary thing that we call death. It must be extraordinary. So without any kind of romantic, comforting, believing in reincarnation, life after death, which is an excellent idea, marvellously comforting. The origin of it probably began with the very ancient Hindus. And the Egyptians talked about it, then Pythagoras the Greek talked about it. If there is a continuity of each one of us, that is, live now, the same thing will be a better opportunity next life, if one believes in that sincerely, deeply, as millions do, then what you do now matters. Right? What you are now. What’s your conduct, what your daily life is. Because if there is a continuity then next life, of course you will have a better castle, better refrigerator, better cars, better wife, or husband. Those who ardently believe in it, they don’t behave properly, they are not concerned about the future any more than you or another. 進而從那個發現中思考 死亡在我們生命中的位置是什麼? 談論死亡並不是病態 它是我們生命的一部分 也許從小到我們真的死去為止 人始終對死亡懷著可怕的恐懼 你們不怕死亡嗎? 我們盡可能地把死亡推遠 讓我們一起參問 這個被我們稱為死亡的非凡的東西是什麼? 它一定是非凡的 沒有任何浪漫、撫慰的 輪迴或來生的信念 輪迴是一個很棒的觀念具有神奇的撫慰性 這個觀念的起源 或許來自非常古老的印度人 埃及人有輪迴的說法 希臘的畢達哥拉斯也談過 如果每個人的生命都會延續 也就是說現在活著 同樣的事會在來世變得更好 如果你也像幾百萬人一樣真誠地深信輪迴 那麼你現在的行為就很重要了 對嗎? 你目前的現狀 你的行為、日常生活都很重要 因為如果有延續的話 那麼來生當然會有一棟更好的城堡 更好的冰箱、汽車 更好的妻子或丈夫 那些堅信輪迴的人 他們的行為並不得體 他們對未來的關心 不會多於你和其他人
39:32 So could we also put that comforting idea aside? Not that one Christian world believes: you go straight up to Heaven – your soul – or down below. The speaker would like to tell you a joke about it but he won’t. This is a quite funny joke, but it would take too long, our time is limited. 我們是否也能放下這個撫慰人心的觀念? 不是基督教相信的 靈魂會直接上天堂 或墮入地獄 說者想跟你們講個笑話 但他不會講 非常滑稽的笑話 太長了,我們的時間有限
40:18 So what is death? What is living? What is living – daily life – and what is death. If we don’t understand our daily living, what relationship has death to that? You understand? So first we must enquire what is living. What do we mean by living? What do we mean by good life? Is good life having a lot of money, cars, changes of wives, or girls, or going from one guru to another, and getting caught up in his concentration camp? Please don’t laugh, this is actually what is going on. Is good life enjoyment, tremendous pleasure, excitement, a series of sensations, going to the office from morning until night, for sixty years? For God’s sake, face all this! Working, working, and then dying. This is what we call living. I am sorry, you and I can’t compete. Sorry. Is this what we call living? – constant conflict, constant problems, one after the other. This life to which we cling, of which we know, we have acquired tremendous information, knowledge, about practically everything, and that knowledge we cling to. To those memories which we have, we are deeply attached. All this is called living – sorrow, pain, anxiety, uncertainty, endless sorrow and conflict. And death comes through accident, old age, senility. That is a good word. What is senility? Why do you attribute it to old age? Why do you say, ‘Oh, he is a senile old man’? – I may be. Are you senile? Senility is forgetfulness, repeating, going back to the old memories, half alive – right? And so on. That is generally called senile. I am asking you, the speaker has asked this question very often of himself, so we are both in the same camp. Is senility an old age problem? Or senility begins when you are repeating, repeating. You follow? When you are traditional, go on, go to the churches, temples, mosques, repeat, repeat. Kneel, and the other fellow touches his forehead to the ground, and the Hindus prostrate. So senility can be at any age – right? So ask yourself that question. 死亡是什麼? 生活是什麼? 什麼是生活,日常生活?什麼是死亡? 如果我們不了解日常生活 不了解死亡與生活的關係 了解嗎? 首先,我們必須參問生活是什麼? 我們說的生活是什麼意思? 好生活是什麼意思? 好生活是擁有很多錢、汽車 換妻子或女朋友 或不停地轉換上師 困在他的集中營裡嗎? 請不要笑,這是實際發生的事 好生活是大量的享樂 刺激、一連串的覺受 朝九晚五地上班 工作六十年嗎? 看上帝的份上,面對這個問題! 工作、工作,接著是死亡 這就是我們所說的生活 抱歉,你不能跟我競爭 抱歉! 這就是我們所說的生活嗎? 持續的衝突、持續的問題 接二連三地來 我們所執著的這一生 我們所知的這一生 我們獲得了大量的資訊、知識 幾乎包羅萬象 我們執著于那些知識 我們擁有的那些記憶 我們深深地執著于它 這些都叫做生活 哀傷、痛苦、焦慮、不確定感 永無止境的哀傷和衝突 死亡透過意外事件 年老、衰老而來 這是個很好的字眼 衰老是什麼? 你為什麼用它來形容老年? 你為什麼說:噢,他是個衰老的男人? 我也許是 你有衰老嗎? 衰老是健忘、重覆 回到舊有的記憶裡 半活半死,對嗎?等等 一般稱之為衰老 我在問你,我在問…說者問自己 說者經常問自己這個問題 我們都在同一個陣營裡 衰老是老年的問題嗎? 或衰老是從不斷地重覆開始 懂嗎? 當你依循著傳統 去教堂、寺廟、清真寺不斷地重覆、重覆 你跪拜,另一個人磕頭 印度教徒伏拜 因此任何年紀都可能衰老,對嗎? 問自己這個問題
46:41 So death can happen through old age, through an accident, through terrible pain, disease. And when it comes there is an end to all your continuity – right? To all your memories, to all your attachments, to your bank account, to your fame. You may be the central figure of entertainment, that too comes to an end. 死亡會透過老年 透過意外 透過極大的痛苦、疾病而來 當它來的時候 你的生命就中斷了 對嗎? 你所有的記憶 所有的執著 你的銀行存款、名聲 你也許是娛樂界的焦點人物 這也會告一段落
47:31 So we ought to consider what is continuity – you understand? – and what is ending. May we go into that? What is it that continues? That is, a series of movements which becomes a continuity. And what is the meaning of that word 'ending'? You understand? Something that ends. Why are we so frightened of ending something whether it be tradition, a habit, a memory, an experience? Can all that end? Not calculated ending, an ending which is not effort, determination. I end something to achieve something else. Death, you can’t argue with death – right? There is a marvellous story of ancient India. It is too long again. It is really a marvellous story. I don’t know if we have time because we have to talk about religion, meditation, if there is something beyond all this human endeavour. All right, I will repeat that story very briefly. 我們應該思考延續是什麼? 了解嗎?結束是什麼? 可以探討這個問題嗎? 能夠延續下去的是什麼? 換言之一系列活動形成了那種延續 而“結束”這個詞又是什麼意思? 了解嗎? 一個會結束的東西 我們為何如此害怕事物的結束? 無論是傳統 習慣 記憶 或經驗 這一切能結束嗎? 不是盤算後的結束 而是不經努力、決定的結束 不是為了成就另一件事而結束一件事 你無法跟死亡爭辯,對嗎? 古印度有一個很棒的故事 同樣也太長了 的確是個很棒的故事 我不知道還有沒有時間來講它 因為我們得談宗教、冥想 是否有超越人為努力的東西 好吧,我非常非常簡短地說一下那個故事
49:46 A Brahmana boy – a Brahmana, you understand? A Brahmin of ancient India – he has collected a lot of things, cows and all the rest of it. And he decides to give them away, one by one. And his son comes to him and says, ‘Why are you giving away all this?’ He explains it why: when you collect a lot of things you must give them away, begin again. You understand the meaning of it, the significance? You collect and then give away everything that you have collected. I am not asking you to do this. So the boy keeps on asking that question. And the father gets angry with him and says, 'I will send you to death if you ask me any more questions'. And the boy says, ‘Why are you sending me to death?’ So as the Brahmana when he speaks, says something he must stick to it, so he sends the boy to death. And the boy arrives at the house of death after talking to all the teachers, philosophers, gurus and all the rest of it, he arrives at the house of death. – I am making it very, very brief. And there he waits for three days. Follow the significance of all this, the subtlety of all this. He waits there for three days. Death comes along and apologises for keeping him waiting because after all he is a Brahmana. So he apologises and says, 'I will give you anything you want, riches, women, cows, property, anything you want'. And the boys says, 'But you will be at the end of it. You will always be at the end of every thing'. And death then talks about various things which the boy can’t understand – right? It is really a marvellous story. 一個婆羅門男子…婆羅門,你了解嗎? 古印度的婆羅門 他收集了很多東西 乳牛之類的東西 他決定一樣一樣地送出去 他的兒子對他說 你為什麼要把這些送人? 他解釋說當你收集很多東西以後 你必須送出去,再重新收集 你了解它的意思或意義嗎? 收集,再把收集的東西送出去 我不是要你這麼做 男孩不斷地問這個問題 父親開始生氣了 他說,你再多問我就把你送給死神 男孩說你為什麼要把我送給死神? 一個婆羅門講出來的話 必須言出必行 所以他把孩子送給死神 孩子來到死神的家 他與所有的老師、哲學家 上師等人談過話後 來到死神的家 我長話短說 他在那裡等了三天 你要聽懂故事的意義 故事的微妙處 他在那裡等了三天 死神來的時候為讓他久等了而向他道歉 因為他畢竟是一個婆羅門 死神跟他道歉說: 你想要什麼我都給你 財富、女人、乳牛、財物任何你想要的東西 小男孩說:但一切事物都會在你手裡結束 萬物都會在你手裡結束 接著,死神說了很多事 但小男孩都聽不懂,對嗎? 這是個很棒的故事
52:44 So let’s come back to realities. Probably you like a lot of stories to be told. I have got quantities, I am not going to. 我們回到現實吧 或許你們喜歡聽很多故事 我有很多,但我不會說
52:57 So, what is death? Is time involved in it? Time. Is time death? I am asking you, please consider it. Time, not only by the watch, by the sunset and sunrise, but also psychologically, inwardly. As long as there is the self-interest of time – right? You are following this? As long as there is the self-interest, which is the wheel of time, then there must be death. So is time related to death? Oh, come on, sirs. If there is no time, is there death? Are we together? Please this requires – this is real meditation, not all the phoney stuff. Time, psychological time, not the time of the big clock, or the watch on your wrist. For us time is very important. Time to succeed, time to grow in that success, and bring about a change in that success. Time means continuity: I have been, I am, I will be. There is this constant continuity in us, which is time. Right? If there is no tomorrow – may I enter into all this? This is a dangerous subject. Please pay your attention if you are interested in it, otherwise yawn, and rest and ease. If there is no tomorrow, would you be afraid of death? If death is now, instant, there is no fear, is there? There is no time. You are capturing what I am saying? So is time, is death? As long as thought functions in the field of time – which we are doing all day long – then there is inevitably the ending of it, saying, 'It might end, therefore I am afraid'. So time may be the enemy of death. Or the time is death. 死亡是什麼? 死亡涉及了時間嗎? 時間 時間是死亡嗎? 我在問你,請你思考 時間,不只是手錶的時間日出日落的時間 還有心理的時間,內在的 只要有對時間的自利 對嗎?你懂嗎? 只要有自利 也就是時間之輪 就一定有死亡 因此時間與死亡有關嗎? 說呀,各位 如果沒有時間,還會有死亡嗎? 我們有交會嗎? 請明白,這是真正的冥想 不是那些冒牌貨 時間,心理的時間不是大鐘上的時間 或手錶指示的時間 時間對我們非常重要 成功的時間在那個成功裡成長的時間 以及在那個成功裡引發改變的時間 時間意味著延續 我過去是、現在是未來將會是 我們內在有著這種不斷的延續 也就是時間 對嗎? 如沒有明天… 我可以深入探討嗎? 這是一個危險的話題 如果你有興趣,請付出關注 否則你會打哈欠或者休息放鬆之類的 如果沒有明天你還會害怕死亡嗎? 如果死亡就在當下、這一刻那就不會有恐懼了,對嗎? 沒有時間了你們能領會我的意思嗎? 那麼時間… 是死亡嗎? 只要思想在時間的場域裡運作對嗎? 這就是我們一整天都在做的事 那就必然會有結束 你會說,它或許會結束因此我會害怕 因此時間也許是死亡的敵人 或者說,時間就是死亡
57:27 That means, if the speaker is attached to his audience, attached to this, because out of that attachment he derives a great deal of excitement, sensation, importance, self-interest, envious of a person who has a larger audience – right? If the speaker is attached, whether to an audience, to a book, to an experience, to a title, to a fame, then he is frightened of death. Attachment means time. I wonder if you understand all this? Attachment means time. So can I, you, be completely free of attachment, which is time – right? I am attached to you, I depend on you, I cry for you. And you do exactly the same to me. We are attached to each other. And death comes and ends that. So can I end that attachment now? Not wait for death, but be free of that attachment completely? Yes, sir. Face that fact. 這意味著 如果說者執著於他的聽眾 執著於這件事 因為他從這個執著裡 獲得相當大的刺激 覺受、重要性、自利 羨慕一個有更多聽眾的人 對嗎? 如果說者有執著,無論是對聽眾 對書本、經驗、稱謂或名聲的執著 那麼他就會害怕死亡 執著意味著時間 我不知道你們是否了解 執著意味著時間 因此,我和你能徹底擺脫執著 也就是時間嗎? 我執著於你 我依賴你 我為你哭泣 你也以同樣的態度對我 我們彼此執著 死亡一到就會終結這一切 我能不能…現在就終結這種執著? 不是等死亡來的時候 而是完全擺脫執著 是的,各位 面對這個事實
59:53 So living is dying and therefore living is death. Together. You understand what I am saying? Oh, come on, sirs. That is why one has to lay the foundation of understanding oneself not according to philosophers, psychiatrists and so on. To understand oneself, not through books, but to see, watch one’s behaviour, one’s conduct, the habit, the accumulation that we have collected through millennia upon millennia. Know all that inside you – the racial, communal, traditional, personal. And the knowledge, the awareness of that is not of time, it can be instant. And the mirror in which you see this is the relationship between you and another, between you and your wife, to see in that relationship all the past, the present, habits, future, everything is there. To know how to look, how to observe, how to hear every word, every movement of thought, that requires great attention, watchfulness. 因此,生活就是走向死亡所以,生活就是死亡 生死同在 了解我說什麼嗎? 說呀,各位 這就是為什麼 你要奠定自我了解的基礎 不是拾取哲學家 精神病學家等的牙慧 了解自己,不是透過書本 而是看、觀察自己的行為 舉止、習慣 我們經過幾千年來 收集而來的累積物 認識你內在的一切,種族、社區 傳統和個人的東西 以及知識… 這種覺察不屬於時間它會在剎那間發生 讓你看見這個的鏡子 就是關係 你與他人、與妻子的關係 在那個關係裡看見所有的過去、現在 習慣、未來每一件事都在那裡 想知道如何看、如何觀察 如何傾聽每一個字每一個思想活動 需要極大的關注、警覺性
1:01:56 So death is not in the future. Death is now when there is no time. When there is no ‘me’ becoming something, when there is no self-interest, egotistic activity, which is all the process of time. 因此,死亡不在未來 死亡就在沒有時間的當下 當那個想變成什麼的「我」不在的時候 沒有自利、我執活動的時候 這些都是時間的過程
1:02:26 So living and dying are together always. And you don’t know the beauty of it. There is great energy in it. We live by energy. You take sufficient food, and right diet and so on, and it gives a certain quality of energy. That energy is distorted when you smoke, drink and all the rest of it. The brain has extraordinary energy. And that extraordinary energy is required to find out for oneself, not be directed by another, to discover, or for that thing to happen. 生與死始終並存 你卻不知道它的美 其中有龐大的能量 我們靠能量生存 攝取充分的食物和正確的飲食等 它帶給你某種能量品質 你抽煙、喝酒等的時候 那個能量就被扭曲了 頭腦具有非凡的能量 你需要這個非凡的能量 才能親自發現不是聽從別人的指示 發現或讓那件事發生
1:03:37 So we are going to enquire into that. That is, what is religion? Please understand, we have talked about fear, we talked about psychological wounds, not to carry for the rest of one’s life. We talked and have gone into it together, what is relationship, the significance of relationship. Nothing can exist on earth without relationship, and that relationship is destroyed when each one of us pursues his own ambition, his own greed, his own fulfilment, and so on. We talked about fear. We went into it together, into the question of thought, time, sorrow and the ending of sorrow. And we have talked this morning also about death. Now we are capable, alive to find out what is religion. Because we have got the energy. You understand? Because we have put all that human conflict, self-interest aside – if you have done it. Which then gives you immense passion and energy, incalculable energy. And what is religion? 我們要參問那件事 也就是參問宗教是什麼? 請了解,我們談過恐懼 也談過心理的創傷 不要帶著創傷過下半輩子 我們一起談過,也探討過 關係是什麼? 關係的意義是什麼? 世間的任何事物無法在沒有關係的情況下存在 那個關係會因為 每個人追求自己的野心、貪婪 自我實現等而被摧毀 我們談過恐懼 我們一起探討過 思想、時間 哀傷和終結哀傷的問題 今早也談過死亡的問題 現在我們有能力去充滿活力地發現 宗教是什麼 因為我們有了能量,了解嗎? 因為我們把人類的衝突和自利都放下了 如果你有這麼做 就會帶來龐大的熱情和能量 無法估量的能量 宗教是什麼?
1:05:49 Is religion all the things that thought has put together? The rituals, the robes, the gurus, the perpetual repetition, prayers and the whole thing, is that religion? Or is it a big business concern? There is a temple in South India that makes a million dollars every third day. You understand what I am saying? Every third day that temple gathers one million dollars – every third day. And that is called religion. They spend the money in different ways. And Christianity, look what it has done, tremendous riches. The Vatican, the churches all over the world. Go down the Fifth Avenue of New York, there they are, richest pomp. Is that religion? Going every Sunday morning to some – to hear some preacher and repeat the ritual, is that religion? Or religion has nothing whatever to do with all that business? Because it can only ask this question when it is free from all that, not caught in the entanglement, in the performance, in the power, position, hierarchy of all that. Then only you can ask the question: what is religion? Is God created by thought, by fear? Or is man the image of God? Or God is the image of man? Right? If one can put all that aside to find out that which is not put together by thought, by sensation, by repetition, by rituals – all that is not religion, at least for the speaker. It has nothing whatever to do with that which is sacred. 宗教是思想組合起來的那些東西嗎? 儀式、僧袍、上師 沒完沒了的重覆、禱詞那一套 那是宗教嗎? 或者宗教只是一票大生意? 南印度有一間寺廟 每三天就能賺進一百萬美元 了解我說什麼嗎? 每三天進帳一百萬美元 每三天 那就叫做宗教 他們拿那些錢到處花 還有基督教看看它做了什麼事? 龐大的財富 梵諦岡與遍佈世界的教堂 沿著紐約的第五大道走 那裡就有一間 最富麗堂皇的教堂那是宗教嗎? 每個星期日早上 去聽傳教士講道,重覆那些儀式 那是宗教嗎? 或者宗教與這些完全無關? 因為只有擺脫這一切的時候 你才能問這個問題 不會困在那些繁文縟節、表演 權力、地位和階層等裡面 然後你才能問宗教是什麼的問題 上帝是思想、恐懼創造出來的嗎? 或者人是上帝的形象? 或上帝就是人類自己的形象?對嗎? 如果你能把這一切都放下 找出 那個不是由思想、覺受 覆誦和儀式組合起來的東西 這些都不是宗教至少對說者來說不是 它與那個神聖的東西毫無關係
1:09:10 So what is, then... what is truth? Is there such a thing as truth? Is there such a thing: an absolute, irrevocable truth, not dependent on time, environment, tradition, knowledge, what the Buddha said, or what somebody said? The word is not the truth. The symbol is not the truth. The person is not the truth. Therefore there is no personal worship. K is not important at all. So we are seeking what is truth – if there is any – and if there is something that is beyond time. The ending of all time. And they have said that meditation is necessary to come upon this. Right? To have a quiet mind. We are going to go into that, if you will allow me. We have got a very short time. Sorry. By the clock. 那麼,真理是什麼? 有真理這種東西嗎? 有一種絕對、不可改變的 不依賴時間、環境、傳統、知識 不是佛陀或某個人說的真理嗎? 文字不是真理 象徵 ∕ 符號不是真理 那個人并不是真理 因此沒有個人崇拜 K一點都不重要 我們要尋找真理是什麼 如果有真理的話 是否有一個超越時間 終結所有時間的東西? 有人說想找到真理 就需要冥想,對嗎? 要有一個安靜的心靈 如果你允許的話我們會探討這個問題 我們只有很短的時間 抱歉,鐘錶的時間
1:11:08 What is meditation? The word means 'ponder over' – according to the dictionary – to think over. And also it has a different meaning, which is 'to measure', both in Sanskrit and in Latin and so on, meditate means not only to ponder, to think, but also to be able to measure – right? Which means comparison – of course. There is no measurement without comparison. So can the brain be free of measurement? Not the measurement by the rule, by the yardstick, kilometres, miles, but the brain be free of all measurement: the becoming, not becoming, comparing, not comparing. You understand? Can the brain be free of this system of measurement? I need to measure to get a suit made. I need measurement to go from here to another place, distance is measurement, time is measurement. Oh, come on. You understand? So can the brain – not the mind, we will go into quickly what the mind and the brain are – can the brain be free of measurement? That is comparison. No comparison whatsoever. This is real meditation. So that the brain is totally free. Is that possible, living in the modern world, making money, breeding children, sex, all the noise, the vulgarity, the circus that is going on in the name of religion. Can one be free of all that? Not in order to get something. You understand? To be free. 冥想是什麼? 根據字典的解釋是這個詞意味著沉思 深思熟慮 它還有一個不同的意思也就是衡量 根據梵文和拉丁文等的說法 冥想不只意味著沉思、思考 也含有衡量的意思,對嗎? 當然就是比較的意思 沒有比較就沒有衡量 那麼,頭腦能擺脫衡量嗎? 不是用尺度衡量 不是用碼尺、公里、英哩衡量 而是頭腦擺脫所有的衡量 擺脫變成、不變成、比較、不比較 了解嗎? 頭腦能擺脫衡量的體系嗎? 我做西裝需要量身 我需要衡量才能從這裡到另一個地方 距離是衡量,時間是衡量 說呀,了解嗎? 那麼,頭腦,不是心靈 我們很快就會來探討什麼是心靈和頭腦 頭腦能擺脫衡量嗎? 也就是擺脫比較,沒有任何比較 這才是真正的冥想 由此頭腦才能完全自由 活在現代的世界裡 賺錢、生孩子、性愛 所有的噪音和庸俗 以宗教之名進行的馬戲活動 我們有可能擺脫這一切嗎? 不是為了得到什麼 了解嗎?是讓自己自由
1:14:02 So meditation is not conscious meditation, you understand this? It cannot be conscious meditation, following a system, a guru, collective meditation, group meditation, single meditation, according to Zen, Buddhist, Hindu, you know, it can’t be a system because then you practise, and your brain gets more and more dull, more and more mechanical. So is there a meditation which has no direction, which is not conscious, deliberate? Find out. 冥想不是有意識的冥想 了解嗎? 不可能是有意識的冥想 追隨一個體系、一個上師 集體冥想、團體冥想 個人冥想 依照禪宗、佛教、印度教的體系你知道 它不可能是一個體系 因為你修鍊再修鍊 頭腦越來越遲鈍 越來越機械化 有一種沒有方向 不用意識心或刻意的冥想嗎? 找出來
1:14:58 That requires great energy, attention, passion. Not lust, that is just... Then that very passion, energy, the intensity of it is silence. Not contrived silence. It is the immense silence in which time, space is not. Then there is that which is unnameable, which is holy, eternal. 這需要龐大的能量、關注和熱情 不是情欲,情欲只是… 那個熱情、能量 它的強度本身就是靜默 不是人為的靜默 而是沒有時間和空間的浩瀚的靜默 然後那個不可名狀的 神聖、永恆的事物就出現了
1:16:28 May we get up? 我們可以站起來了嗎?