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SD72CA1 - 聆听是巨大的奇迹
与艾伦·W·安德森博士的第一次对话，圣地亚哥，美国
1972年2月16日



0:21 Krishnamurti in Dialogue with Dr. Allan W. Anderson J. Krishnamurti was born in South India and educated in England. For the past 40 years he has been speaking in the United States, Europe, India, Australia, and other parts of the world. From the outset of his life’s work he repudiated all connections with organised religions and ideologies and said that his only concern was to set man absolutely unconditionally free. He is the author of many books, among them The Awakening of Intelligence, The Urgency of Change, Freedom From the Known, and The Flight of the Eagle. In dialogue with Krishnamurti is Dr. Allan W. Anderson, professor of religious studies at San Diego State University where he teaches Indian and Chinese scriptures and the oracular tradition. Dr. Anderson, a published poet, acquired his degree from Columbia University and the Union Theological Seminary. He has been honoured with the distinguished Teaching Award from the California State University. 克里希那穆提与艾伦.W.安德森博士的对话 J.克里希那穆提生于南印度， 在英国接受教育。 在过去的四十年里， 他在美国、 欧洲、印度、澳大利亚及世界其他地区，举行了大量演讲和对话。 在他毕生工作开始之初，他就否定了和所有 有组织的宗教或者意识形态的联系。 他说他只关心， 人类彻底的，无条件的自由。 他一生著作颇丰， 例如《智慧的觉醒》（The Awakening of Intelligence）、 《转变的急迫性》（The Urgency of Change） 《从已知中解脱》（Freedom From the Known）及《鹰之高翔》（The Flight of the Eagle）等。 和克里希那穆提对话的，是艾伦.W.安德森博士， 他是圣地亚哥州立大学的宗教学教授， 他在那里教授印度和中国经文， 以及传统的宗教文学。 安德森教授出版过诗作， 他在哥伦比亚大学及 纽约协和神学院获得学位。 他也曾获得加州州立大学的 杰出教学奖。
1:34 Anderson: Mr. Krishnamurti, one of the hazards among many of being a professor of religious studies is that people seem invariably to ask you: what is the teaching of so-and-so? And of course one is rather careful about how he answers that. He demurs and says he doesn’t want to speak for somebody else. So I’m delighted that I can ask the man himself: what is it that, as a renowned spiritual teacher, you would care to say you teach? 安：对于宗教学教授， 一个棘手的事情是 人们总是无法避免地问， “某位导师的教诲是什么？” 当然，一个教授会很谨慎的回答这个问题， 他会辩解说，他不想代替其他人发表他的观点。 所以我现在很高兴我可以直接问你本人， 作为一位著名的精神领域的导师， 你会如何阐述你的教诲？
2:15 Krishnamurti: I think it is rather difficult to put in a few words, isn’t it? We want to cover, don’t we, the whole field of living – death, love, fear, living and the whole conflict of man and whether it is at all possible ever to be free from all this, and to come upon something which is not corruptible by thought. I think that would be more or less what one can say that one talks about. 克：我认为用几句话去阐述， 是很困难的，不是吗？ 我们希望能覆盖存在的整个领域， 死亡，爱，恐惧，生活，还有人类所有的冲突， 还有是否有可能从这一切中解放出来， 从而发现一种无法被思想腐蚀的东西。 我觉得或多或少就是这样， 这就是我想传达的东西。
3:08 A: I see. In what you said, it seems to me that perhaps you are pointing to something in one of the hexagrams in the I Ching, the hexagram called Innocence or The Unexpected, and it seems so, from my reading of your books that you do take very special care to advise us to place ourselves in a state of readiness of a sort to be able to expect what otherwise would be unexpected. Would you say that that is a beginning towards what you pointed to? 安：对于我来说， 你似乎在谈论 《易经》中的一卦， 第25卦无妄，或者说单纯、不去期待， 就我对你的书的阅读来看， 你似乎很强调， 让人们做好准备 去面对意料之外的事。 这是一个通向 你所指出的事物的起点吗？
3:50 K: Not quite. You see, sir, when one looks at the whole phenomena of man, whether in the East or in the West, they seem to live in such utter chaos and tremendous sorrow consciously or unconsciously, and until you go beyond that, merely to wait in expectancy or to allow oneself to be in a state of innocency, if we can use that word, one can so easily deceive oneself. So one has to lay the foundation for righteous behaviour. From there we have to start. After laying that deeply, then one can begin to go further – not further – then see what happens. But without this sense of... Understanding what behaviour is, what conduct is and bringing order there, I don’t see merely to expect or wait or accept or be in a state of openness – they’re all rather deceptive or rather merely to illusion. 克：不是这样 先生，你看。 当一个人观察人类的整个存在时， 会发现无论是西方人还是东方人， 人类都生活在彻底的混乱， 及巨大的悲伤之中，无论是在意识还是无意识层面。 因此除非你能超越这一切， 仅仅只是在期望中等待， 或者保持那种， 所谓的“纯真”，如果我们能使用这个词， 一个人会很轻易的欺骗他自己。 所以一个人必须首先打下地基，即正确的行动。 从这一点我们才可以开始，只有深刻地做到这一点， 一个人才能 走更远，不，不是走更远，是看看会有什么发生。 但是如果没有 对自身行为，动机的了解， 同时在其中获得秩序。 只是期待，等待或者接受什么， 处于一种开放的状态， 这些事都很具欺骗性， 或者说只会导致幻觉。
6:04 A: I’m interested in your word ‘righteousness’ here, especially in respect to Chinese thought which in the neo-Confucian tradition talks about seriousness and righteousness as not being different. That seriousness as ‘standing firm’ and righteousness as ‘walking’.

K: Walking, quite. 		安：我对你所谓的“正确的”很感兴趣， 尤其在中国传统思想， 新儒家的传统的观点， “严肃”和“正确”并没有不同。 “严肃”就是立场坚定， “正确”就是在前进。

克：前进，行走，是的。
6:27 A: Now, I wonder whether we’re not getting closer now. 安：现在，我想知道我们是否更接近了。
6:30 K: Yes, sir, that’s quite right. Seriousness obviously is necessary – to be serious. But one can be serious about things which one believes in or about a concept, about a dogma. We can be frightfully serious about it and accept it and live with it, but I wouldn’t consider that seriousness. Seriousness implies: to have the capacity to go, to examine very, very deeply and give your whole life to that examination. And in giving your whole life to that, dedicating your whole life to that, you walk in righteousness. 克：是的，先生，就是这样的。 严肃显然是必须的， 但是人们也会对自己信仰的事情严肃， 例如一种概念或者教条。 我们可能对这些事情非常严肃， 接受他们，并且依照他们生活， 但是我们并不是在讨论这种严肃。 严肃意味着：有能力 前行，探索到非常非常深入的地步， 同时把全部生命致力于这种探索。 在把全部生命致力于这种探索的过程中， 你就走在正确的道路上。
7:34 A: Would you care to say that righteousness would be an embodiment of seriousness? 安：所以我们能说 正确就是严肃的具体化吗？
7:39 K: Yes. Yes. 克：是的，是的
7:41 A: So then we would agree with the neo-Confucians when they say that righteousness squares the external life, and seriousness the internal life. 安：所以我们认同新儒家的观点， 他们说“正确”规范了外在的生活， “严肃”规范了内在的生活。
7:59 K: Ha, yes. You see, sir, there is a difficulty, isn’t there, when you divide the external and the internal? Isn’t it really one movement, in-flowing and out-flowing, out-flowing and in-flowing like a tide going in and out. There isn’t such clear, definite division between the outer and the inner. 克：是的，但是 先生，你看，这里有一个困难， 当你划分外在和内在时， 这二者不是同一个运动吗？涌进来然后涌出去， 涌出去然后涌进来，就像潮水一样进进出出。 并没有一条明确的界限，来划分 外在和内在。
8:28 A: No. I think that’s why they say they’re not different. But they don’t say they’re the same and that interests me, that they should say they’re not different and yet they don’t say that they are the same. 安：确实没有，我想这是为何他们说内外并无不同， 但是他们也不会说他们是相同的，这让我很感兴趣。 他们说内外并无不同， 但他们却不说他们是相同的。
8:42 K: I wonder what we mean by ‘the same’. 克：我好奇，我们所谓的“相同”是什么意思。
8:47 A: Sometimes we mean identical. 安：有时我们指的是完全相同。
8:48 K: When there is diversity and difference, a similarity, one must be careful that the similarity isn’t – it becomes deceptive. You know, the world outside, the world inside are similar and yet not similar. And to hold to the idea that it is similar and definitely alike, then it breaks down. 克：当存在多样性，差异，以及相似性的时候， 我们要注意这里的相似性，难道不是 具有欺骗性吗？ 你知道， 外在和内在的世界， 是相似的，又是不相似的。 如果保持这种观点， 认为二者必然存在的相似性， 相似性就会解体。
9:36 A: But there would also be a difficulty of collapsing one into the other too. 安：但是把一样东西压缩进另一样东西， 也同样是困难的。
9:39 K: Yes, of course, of course. 克：当然，当然
9:41 A: Right. I take it then that I might have been reading what you’ve written somewhat correctly when you talk about seeing as not something done exclusive of one’s ordinary activities, but while one is doing what he ought to be doing, or while one is living righteously he is at the same time... 安：是的，让我们继续，我读过 很多你写的东西，我认为他们相当正确， 当你谈到“看”的时候，它并不是某种 在一个人日常生活之外要做的事， 而是当一个人做某件事的时候，他应当去做的。 或者说，如果一个人正确的生活 他就在同时
10:15 K: Seeing.

A: Seeing, right. 		克：看

安：看，是的。
10:19 K: I wonder what we mean by the word ‘seeing’? 克：我好奇，我们所谓的“看”是什么意思？
10:25 A: I was going to ask you that. I was thinking when I was driving down in the car, ‘Well, I want to ask Mr Krishnamurti what he thinks perhaps Jesus meant when he said as a judgment upon persons that he was speaking to: ‘Having eyes and seeing not; having ears and hearing not’. 安：我正要问你这个。 当我在开车的时候，我就在想。 我要问克里希那穆提 他怎么认为基督评价 人们说， “有眼睛却看不见，有耳朵却听不见”？
10:49 K: Quite. 克：确实如此。
10:50 A: And I was going to ask you. 安：这就是我要问你的。
10:53 K: Sir, I feel the greatest and the most important thing in all this is the art of seeing or the art of hearing. I mean, to observe without division, without ‘the me’ with all its memories, with all its experiences interfering in the observation. Because ‘the me’, the ego, the self does bring division. And where there is division, there must be conflict. Like, when there are national divisions there are conflicts. So if there is, in observation there is the division between ‘what is’ and the observer, who is ‘the me’ with all the memories, concepts, theories, prejudices, when he looks through those prejudices, concepts, that must create a division, therefore he is not really seeing. 克：先生，我觉得 所有这些中最重要的就是， 看的艺术，或者听的艺术。 这意味着，没有分裂的观察，没有我的 所有记忆，经验 来干扰这种观察。 因为我，自我，总是会带来分裂 而哪里有分裂，哪里就有冲突。 就像国家的分裂带来了冲突。 所以，如果观察是有分裂的， 在事实如此和观察者，也就是我，之间的分裂。 我带着我的记忆，概念，理论，偏见， 当我透过所有这些偏见，概念来看时， 就必然有分裂，因此不是真正的看。
12:21 A: I was interested in how you emphasized ‘i-n-g’ when you said he is not really seeing. So that means that you’re telling me that it’s an on-going process. 安：我对你为何强调进行时（-ing）很感兴趣， 你说“他们没有真正在看（really seeing）” 所以你是说， 看是一个正在进行的过程，
12:35 K: Yes. It’s a constant process. 克：是的。看是一个持续的过程。
12:38 A: Yes. It’s not a series of blips or episodic. 安：是的，所以不是一系列的闪光或者片段。
12:42 K: Not episodic, no. 克：是的，不是片段。
12:44 A: No, I’ve often wondered about that because sometimes people talk about – and one of our words today comes to mind, ‘high’, being high, having a high, and clearly, if I understand correctly what’s meant by that, it’s not something to be sustained. It’s rather something that is episodic. But now you’re talking about something that’s on-going, that is not episodic. 安：不是片段。我经常在想，因为有时人们会说， 这也是今天进入我头脑的想法， 高峰状态（high），处于那种状态， 并且显然，如果我理解正确的话， 这不是一件需要保持的事。 它超越了那些片段。 但是现在，你所说的 也是一件一直进行的事，不是什么片段。
13:13 K: Sir, that’s why I think we should discuss, talk about a little more what it is to observe. What is implied in seeing or hearing? When I pay attention to what you say, in that attention there is the verbal communication, because we both speak English or French or whatever it is and also in that there is no interpretation of what you are saying, that interpretation according to my framework of reference. So I’m listening to you without interpretation, without translation, without any form of judgment. I’m absolutely listening. 克：先生，因此我认为我们需要讨论一下， 更仔细的讨论一下，什么是观察。 所谓看或者听意味着什么？ 当我对你所说的事情给予关注时， 在那种关注中，有纯语言的交流， 因为我们都说英语，法语或者其他什么语言， 所以有语言上的交流， 同时我没有去诠释你说的东西， 没有根据我旧有知识的框架去诠释你。 所以我是没有诠释的在倾听你， 没有转述（translation），没有任何形式的判断， 我在彻底的倾听。
14:22 A: So this is an act of pure intuition, unmediated. Is that what you say? 安：所以是一种纯然的、未被干扰的直觉在运作？ 你是这个意思吗？
14:28 K: I wouldn’t call it ‘intuition’. I attend. When I attend, there is no interference of thought. 克：我不会称之为“直觉”.我是在关注（attend） 当我在关注时，并没有思想的干扰。
14:41 A: Well, thought would not stand between your seeing and what is seen. 安：所以思想并没有站在 你的观察和被观察之物中间。
14:47 K: Yes. ‘What is’ can only be observed totally or read totally, understood totally, when there is no interpretation and no translation, there is no giving a nuance according to my prejudices, inclinations and all the rest of it. So that in this attention the ‘what is’ undergoes a radical change. 克：是的。事实只能被彻底地观察， 或者彻底的阅读，彻底的理解。 当没有诠释，没有转述（translation）， 没有根据我的偏见，倾向等等 投射一些观点。 因此在这样的关注中， 事实发生了彻底的转变。
15:18 A: Yes. Yes. 安：是的。
15:21 K: And after all, if I am envious, – take that, for the moment – and I attend to it completely, not say, not even use the word, ‘I’m envious’, be totally aware of that feeling, then in that observation there is no division. I am not different from the envy. There is only envy. In that attention, that feeling undergoes a radical change. There is no longer envy left. Whereas there was a division between ‘what is’, which is envy, and saying, ‘I must get over it, conquer it, I must not be envious’, then there is conflict because there is a division. 克：例如，如果我充满嫉妒心，暂时举这个例子， 然后我给予它完全的关注， 我甚至不用”我在嫉妒”这个词， 我彻底的觉察那种感觉， 然后在这种观察中，就没有分裂。 我和嫉妒并无不同。只存在嫉妒。 在那种关注之中， 嫉妒的感觉经历了彻底的转变。 不再有嫉妒存在了。 然而如果存在分裂， 在事实，也就是嫉妒， 和我说“我必须克服它，征服它，我不能嫉妒”之间的分裂， 就会存在冲突，因为有这种分裂，就会有冲突。
16:36 A: I suppose many persons must have asked you when you said this that they feel in their heart that what you’re saying is the case and then don’t they often say, ‘How do I do this?’ 安：我认为肯定有很多人这样问你， 他们心里感受到你说的是对的， 那他们难道不会经常问，“我如何做到这一点？”
16:53 K: Ah, yes. Sir, I don’t think there is any ‘how’. The ‘how’ implies a method, a system, a practice and in the ‘how’ there is the implication that you must get over it, you must conquer. When there is this feeling of conquering, then everything must be re-conquered again. When I conquer something it must be re-conquered so I keep this thing going all the time. Whereas if I realize there is no ‘how’ but only the act of attention. 克：当然。 先生，我并不认为存在“如何”这回事。 “如何”意味着一种方法，一个体系，一种练习方式。 “如何”暗示了 你必须克服它，征服它，战胜它。 当有要战胜某件事的感觉时， 就必须要再次战胜这件事。 当我战胜任何事物时，我都需要反复战胜它， 所以我一直重复这个过程。 然而如果我认识到不存在“如何”， 只有关注的行动。
17:47 A: So one must not, I take it, make it a goal that lies beyond the activity. 安：所以一个人不能， 将它变成一种目标，变成超出行动本身的事。
17:55 K: That’s just it, you see, because we want a goal. The human being wants an end to achieve, a goal to conquer. That gives him a sense of vitality, a sense of well-being, sense of success. 克：是的，你看，因为我们想要一个目标。 人类希望有一个结局去成就， 一个目标去征服。 这给了人类一种活力感， 一种良好的，成功的感觉。
18:13 A: Well, this helps me a great deal to understand the statement that you make in one of your books which falls rather harshly on the ordinary ear, that ‘ideals are idiotic’. We can see that. And you say to yourself, well, I’d better read that again. Maybe I put something there that wasn’t there and you read it again – no, that’s what he says, ‘ideals are idiotic’. But if one understands it in terms of the distinction you’ve made then perhaps we could keep the word ‘ideal’ if we understood it, not as something that lies outside the activity. 安：这让我更好的理解你的一些陈述， 你在你的一本书中说过， 对于普通人来说，听起来很严厉， 你说”理想是愚蠢的“。现在我能看到这一点了。 我曾自言自语，觉得自己应该再读一篇， 也许是我搞错了什么，然后我又读了一遍， 发现这就是你的原话，”理想是愚蠢的“。 但是如果一个人理解了你所说的这些区别， 也许我们可以保留”理想“这个词，如果我们理解它， 不是什么在活动和行为之外的事。
19:01 K: Sir, why do we want ideals at all? 克：先生，为什么我们需要理想？
19:11 K: I’m faced with ‘what is’ only. There is war. I’m faced with that. Why should I have an ideal about it? I’m faced with the conflict in relationship between two human beings. That is ‘what is’. Why should I have any ideal about it? If it’s only ideals coming into being when I do not know how to deal with these, ‘what is’, but if I know what to do with ‘what is’, when there’s comprehension or understanding ‘what is’, ideals become absolutely meaningless whether the ideal out there or in here. Because ideal implies, doesn’t it, sir, going towards the end, reaching a certain level of perfection, a certain level of fulfillment and so on, and therefore there is always this idea of becoming; never being with ‘what is’. 克：我只会直接面对事实。 这世界上存在战争。我直接面对它。 我为什么需要一个理想？ 我直接面对 关系中的冲突，人与人之间的冲突。 这就是事实所在。我为什么需要对此抱持一种理想？ 是否，只有当我不知道 如何处理事实的时候，才有理想。 但是如果我知道如何处理事实， 当我理解了事实， 理想就变成了完全毫无价值的东西， 不管是这样或者那样的理想。 因为理想意味着， 向终点前进， 到达某种程度的完美， 某种程度的圆满，等等。 因此永远存在变成什么的理想， 而不是与事实共处。
20:40 A: Perhaps we could think of the word ‘ideal’ simply in terms of referring to going well rather than ill; not in the sense of trying to become well, as a sick man would desire health, but rather that the healthy man is embodying that health, as a finite being he must change. 安：也许我们可以认为”理想“ 只是好的，而非不好的状态， 不是尝试去变好， 就像一个病人渴望健康， 而是像一个健康的人，就是健康的具体化， 作为有限的存在，他必须改变。
21:15 K: A healthy man doesn’t know he’s healthy. It’s only the sick man that knows he’s sick. 克：健康的人不知道他是健康的。 只有患病的人知道他在患病。
21:27 A: Yes, I really think I’m beginning to understand your distinction. Much of the difficulty with language about this perhaps arises because of the distinction we make between being and knowing. 安：是的。我真的觉得我开始理解你所谓的区分了。 大部分困难都来自语言， 因为我们把存在（being）和了解（knowing）区分开来。
21:41 K: Yes. Yes. Yes. Then can we go into that a little bit too, that is, knowing and being in the sense being with ‘what is’. What is knowing? I say I know you. Do I know you? I only know you since I met you the day before yesterday. And in the meantime you might have changed completely. But I have the image of you established in my mind according to that image I say I know you. If I have no image of you, then I’m always seeing you anew, fresh. 克：是的，是的。 接下来，我们可以再深入一点， 了解和存在，存在意味着与事实共处， 那了解意味着什么？ 我说我了解你，我真的了解你吗？ 我了解你，只是因为，我在前几天见过你。 但是同时你可能已经彻底的改变了。 但是我还是保存着旧有的印象， 基于那个印象，我说我了解你。 如果我没有对你的印象， 那样我就可以永远重新看待你，用崭新的目光。
22:46 A: Yes. Yes. So we know each other from Monday. We’re seeing each other now. Does one keep the ‘seeing’ with him from the time when he saw before? Or does it become knowledge? 安：是的，是的。 例如我们从周一见面， 我们现在就在看着彼此。 我们是否从第一次见面开始， 就一直在观察彼此？ 或者之前的观察变成了知识？
23:17 K: Knowledge, when we talk about knowledge, it’s also the formation of images, isn’t it? 克：知识，当我们谈论知识， 知识也是印象的基础，不是吗？
23:26 A: We represent knowledge to ourselves through images, yes. 安：我们通过印象来代表知识，是的。
23:30 K: And that image becomes extraordinarily important in relationship I’ve lived with you, say, ten days, or a month or whatever it is, and from that I gather, I build up a whole series of images and then I say I know you, which is, I know you according to my image and you know me according to your image of me. So our relationship is actually between these two images – the images being the past, the images being the knowledge of each other. You have talked to me harshly, friendly, all the rest of it, and that builds an image and I keep that image, the mind holds to that image. Can the mind meet and yet not let the images interfere? 克：而那个印象就变得在关系之中 及其重要。 我和你生活了，十天，一个月，或者更久， 从这个过程中，我收集，建立起来一系列的印象， 然后我就说我了解你， 也就是说，我是基于我的印象来了解你， 你也是基于你对我的印象来了解我。 所以我们的关系实际上是印象之间的关系， 印象就是过去， 印象就是彼此之间的知识。 你对我说话很严厉，又或者很友好，诸如此类， 我基于此建立了对你的印象， 而意识保存了这些印象。 意识可以交流， 而不让印象介入吗？
24:54 A: And then the student looks at you and says, ‘How do I start?’ Do you think that a person hearing that correctly 安：然后学生就会看着你，问，“我该如何开始？” 你是否觉得对于正确的听到这一切的人， 如果聆听的行为本身是正确的，他就已经在做你所谈论的这些了？
25:18 K: Yes, that’s right. That’s why seeing and hearing is so important. If I really hear you make that statement, really hear you without any sense of twisting it, without any sense of direction, I listen completely to say, look, love is not pleasure. I listen to that and in the very act of listening I see the truth of it, and that perception does something instantly, that hearing. But when you say love is pleasure or love is not pleasure and I pay casual attention to it, it means nothing. But if I give my heart, my mind, my whole being to that act of listening, to what you say, then there is no division between the verbal statement and the fact. 克：是的，没错。 这就是为什么“看”和“听”是如此重要。 如果我真的听到了你的陈述， 不带任何扭曲， 没有任何方向感的听到。 我完全、彻底得听到你说，爱不是快感。 我听到了这个陈述， 在听的过程、动作之中，我就能看到其中的真相， 然后这份觉察就会立刻行动，这种倾听带来的觉察。 但是如果你说“爱是快感”或者“爱不是快感”， 但是我只是随意的听，那这些陈述对我没有任何意义。 但是如果我给予我的心，我的思想， 我的整个存在，去聆听 你所说的东西， 那在言语陈述与事实之间就没有分裂。
26:46 A: Do you think this is what little children do when they attend, as they seem to, with such intensity – the span of attention, isn’t very long – but when they do attend, they seem to bring forward the sort of intensity that we see in the animal. 安：你是否觉得这就是小孩子们做的事， 当他们关注的时候，他们就有这样的强度， 虽然这种关注持续不了多久， 但是当他们关注的时候，他们似乎能倾注 那种我们在动物中看到的强度。
27:08 K: In that case, the children – I’ve taught a few children – they attend completely, absorbed by something, by a toy. The toy absorbs them, and then when the toy – they’re fed up with the toy or break it up, their absorption goes off. The toy is the instrument of their absorption. It isn’t they’re absorbed. 克：对于小孩子，我教过一些小孩子， 他们可以彻底关注某事， 是因为他们被某件事情吸引（absorb）了，被一个玩具。 玩具吸收（absorb）了他们（的注意力）， 当他们厌倦时， 或者玩具坏了，这种吸引就会消失。 玩具就是吸引他们的事物。 不是他们被吸引了。
27:46 A: No, I follow, you, yes. Please go on, yes. 安：是的，请继续
27:54 K: I think that’s what takes place, sir. When an image, a statue, a sentence is so strong, it absorbs people in that. People are absorbed by that, taken over by that, overwhelmed by that, and they think that’s marvelous, you know, forget themselves, they say Christ, Jesus or Buddha has completely absorbed them. Which means they have allowed themselves to be enticed by the image which they have created, and that absorption is a very shallow business. It may last a year or ten years but it’s still very shallow, like a child being enticed by a toy. So, I don’t know if you have observed, sir, the people who are terribly devoted, they are devotees, the thing to which they are devoted is the most important thing. Take that thing away, they get lost, they get frightened, they get annoyed, they get violent. So what we are talking about is this form of attention, of listening so completely, I’m not absorbed by what you’re saying, I’m actually totally listening so that I want to see if what you say is false or true. I must be able to discern, see the falseness in the truth or the truth in falseness. I can’t if I am in any way inclined towards a concept which I hold on to. So I think listening is a great miracle. If I listen that way, I never will ask ‘how’. 克：我认为这就是发生的事情。 当一个图像，一个雕塑， 或者一个句子非常有力的时候，他就会吸收人们。 人们被他们吸引， 被他们掌握，覆盖， 人们认为这些事物是奇妙的，你知道，人们就会忘记自己， 他们说上帝，基督，或者佛陀，完全吸收、吸引了他们。 这意味着他们，允许 自身被图像所诱惑， 被他们自己创造的图像诱惑， 但这种吸引，吸收只是很肤浅的事， 不管持续一年或者十年，这都是非常肤浅的事， 就像一个孩子被玩具诱惑。 所以，我不知道，先生你是否观察过， 那些狂热的、献身的人，那些信徒， 对于他们来说，他们所献身的事物是最重要的。 如果把那个事物拿走，他们就迷失了， 他们会受到惊吓，会很生气，会变得暴力。 所以我们讨论的是完全的、彻底的倾听， 这样一种关注。 我们不是在讨论被什么事物吸收、吸引了之类的事。 我们真的做到完全的聆听， 所以我想看看，你所说的是真是假。 我有区分的能力，可以看到真实中的虚假， 或者虚假中的真实。 如果我有对某种我所秉持的概念的倾向， 我就做不到了。 所以我认为聆听是巨大的奇迹。 如果我用正确的方式聆听，我永远不会问”如何”。
30:33 A: One doesn’t, then, prepare himself to receive this miracle? 安：一个人不能 特意准备去接收那种奇迹，对吧？
30:38 K: No, one can’t prepare, then that means again the whole practice. 克：是的，一个人不能刻意准备， 否则他又开始了那整个练习的过程。
30:45 A: It does seem to me extraordinary that that very miracle that you’ve mentioned, it sounds a little silly to talk about an extraordinary miracle because a miracle is, of course, out of the ordinary. But would you let me try to repeat what you seem to say to me in answer to the question about this thing because I want to be sure I’ve understood this. If a person is genuinely listening, he has already begun this activity which releases him from the mournful round of pleasure which is consummated and therefore is lost, and now he has a sustained joy. It really does abide.

K: Yes. 		安：对我来说，非同寻常的是 你所说的奇迹， 当然把奇迹称为不同寻常的有些可笑， 毕竟奇迹，本身就是不同寻常的。 你能让我在重复一下你对我说过的， 关于这个问题的答案， 我想确定我是否理解了。 你说，如果一个人真的在聆听， 他就已经开始了你所谈论的活动， 这种活动就可以把他从令人悲伤的追逐快感的循环， 因为快感是会结束的，因此这种循环会带来失落， 现在他拥有了持续的快乐， 是真正可以持续的。

克：是的。
32:03 A: That’s what we meant by saying it wasn’t episodic, 安：因此我们说这种活动不是片段的。
32:09 K: No, no. 克：当然不是。
32:10 A: It wasn’t a series of highs.

K: No. 		安：也不是一系列的高峰时刻。

克：不是。
32:15 A: So if when you’re speaking, say, to a large group of persons, a crowd, or speaking to a small number, it’s possible that somebody will listen regardless of whether we do have huge audience 安：所以如果当你对着 一大群 或者一小群人演讲， 其中是否会有人倾听，而 不管有没有很多听众？
32:46 K: Sir, it’s really quite a thing, sir. If I am talking superficially, casually and rather hypocritically, and if somebody listens very, very seriously, he’ll spot him immediately, that he’s talking with his tongue in his cheek. 克：是的，先生。有这种事。 假设我的演讲，很肤浅，很随意，甚至是虚伪， 但是有人听的非常非常严肃， 那这个人就会立刻让演讲者意识到， 他演讲的内容其实很可笑。
33:11 A: People always say at that point, ‘He’s talking my language’. I know what you mean. 安：人们总是会说，他的演讲很合我心意， 我知道他在讲什么。
33:19 K: I think, you see, attention in this way goes beyond the verbal communication. I’m not caught by the words you’re using. They don’t trip me over and say, well, he means this, he means that, I don’t mean – you follow? – all that thing that goes on. But if I listen, the images the words create don’t take place. I just listen. I know it sounds rather odd and rather arduous, but it isn’t really. 克：我认为， 专注能 超越语言词汇的交流。 如果我没有被你使用的词语困住。 词语并没有把我绊倒，我不会说， 他是这个意思，他是那个意思，我不认为…… 等等 你明白吗？ 如果我听的同时，那些词语并没有构建出意象， 我只是听。 我知道这听起来很怪，甚至有些费力， 但是实际上并非如此。
34:05 A: No, not the activity, no. I’m wondering again about this imposition that a person is in who comes to hear a discussion concerning seeing and hearing, having eyes that really see, having ears that really hear, and they’re not seeing and they’re not hearing, but they say they want to and they think that they’re really serious about wanting to. Is it the case that one like yourself who addresses them, exerts an attractive power upon their attention so that in a sense in spite of themselves they might suddenly start? 安：不，不是这种活动。 我好奇那些前来聆听讨论的 人的负担， 他们在考虑看和听的问题， 要有能看清的眼睛，能听清的耳朵， 可他们又没看见，也没听见， 但他们说他们想去听， 他们也自认为对此非常认真。 这种情况下，像你这样的人， 作为演讲者， 会给他们施加一种吸引力， 所以在这种情况下， 他们可能突然的开始？
35:06 K: Sir, that brings a point which is: whether you’re talking to the conscious mind or to the unconscious. 克：先生，这涉及到另一个问题，就是 你是在与听众的意识演讲， 还是无意思？
35:18 A: Yes, yes. 安：是的，是的。
35:20 K: Now which is it that goes on? If you are talking to the conscious mind, then the conscious mind can argue, can say ‘No, he’s right, he’s wrong, he should say this’ – you follow? You’re all the time comparing with what you know, with what is being said, translating, all that’s going on in the conscious mind. But if you’re talking something which is real, not phony, not wanting to exercise your authority, your influence, your personality, all that nonsense, but actually talking so that you want to convey something to that person totally so that deep down, then you’re touching the very deep, the unconscious, and in that it may say, ‘Well, I reject the whole thing because this is too dangerous. I don’t like this because it will deprive me of my nationality or my belief’. He gets frightened at such thought. Or he’s also, because he’s not familiar with all the contents of the unconscious, there may be a space in which what is being said enters without his knowing. After all, all the subliminal advertising, advertisements are this kind of tricks, so one has to be careful – not careful – one has really to be totally indifferent to the audience. I don’t know if you get this? 克：所以现在是什么情况？ 如果你是在对他的意识说什么， 那他的意识可能同意， 也可能不同意，你是对的，你是错的，他就会这么说， 他会一直把你所说的， 和他知道的作比较， 或者转述你的话，意识的大脑就会这么做。 但是如果你谈论的是真实的事物，没有虚伪之处， 不是想展示你的权威，你的影响力， 你的个人特性，以及其他种种无意义的事， 你是在真诚的谈论某事，所以你想 把某些事完全的、深入的传递给某人， 这样你就能触动到非常深的无意思， 在这种情况下，他可能会全盘拒绝， 因为这对他来说他危险了， 这会破坏他的国家主义，他的信仰。 他对这些想法很恐惧。 又或者， 因为他对无意识的内容并不熟悉， 他的无意识里或许有让你所谈论的事物进入的空间， 由于未知而产生的空间。 毕竟，所有下意识的广告， 玩的都是这样的把戏， 所以一个人要小心，不是小心， 一个人要对听众（的表现）彻底的做到无动于衷。 我不知道你是否明白了这一点？
37:23 A: Yes, that reminds me of a saying of Jesus which when I was a child disturbed me very much because it sounded impossibly unfair when he said, ‘I speak to them in parables that hearing they might not hear and seeing they might not see’. Now, I take it, if we look at it from the perspective that you brought forward, that he might have been saying: I’m speaking to them in parables, but hearing they won’t hear simply with their argumentative mind. 安：是的。这让我想起基督说的话， 当我还是一个孩子的时候，这些话极大震惊了我， 因为这些话听起来太不公平了， 他说”我用比喻对他们讲， 因为他们听也听不明白，看也看不清楚。“ 现在，我懂这句话了， 如果我们从你提出的角度 看待这句话， 他可能是说：”我用比喻对他们讲， 因为他们好争论的头脑，不能简单的聆听。
37:56 K: Argumentative quite, quite. 克：好争论的，是的是的。
37:58 A: And that seeing they won’t see as though to discern holes in what I’m saying. but you see that’s the difficulty. You see, our consciousness has so many things in it what Jesus said, what Plato said, what Buddha said, what somebody said, and our own experiences, our own incidents, happenings, misfortunes, sorrow, it’s such a vast content. And the content is our consciousness. You can’t separate the two. Now, and in listening, are you adding to the content, making another object to hold on, or in listening, you’re emptying the content? So, when you empty the content, your consciousness as ‘the me’ is not, and therefore you’re listening with quite a different élan, with quite a different dimension, if I can use that word without being misunderstood. So that’s very interesting. I don’t know if you want to go into it. Whether you’re adding to the content and therefore making the content more heavy, having more problems, or, in listening the content is fading away – even what you’re saying is fading away so that your mind is completely, delicately empty, new. 安：他们也看不到， 虽然他们能分辨我的话中的差别。

克：但是这是有一个困难。 我们的意识有太多的内容， 基督的话，柏拉图的话， 佛陀的话，以及等等， 我们自己的经验，各种意外， 开心的，不开心的，悲伤的， 这是巨大的内容。 这些内容就是我们的意识。 你不能区分二者。 现在，在倾听的过程中，你是在继续增加这个内容吗， 增加更多坚持的观点？ 或者你在聆听的过程中，清空了这些内容？ 所以，当你清空了这些内容时， 你的意识，也就是“你”，是不存在的， 因此你在用一种截然不同 的动力聆听， 用不同的维度聆听， 如果我能使用这个词，又不产生误解的话。 所以，这很有趣。 我不知道你是否探究过这一点。 你是否在给内容添加东西， 因此让这些内容越来越沉重，进而滋生出越来越多的问题， 或者，在倾听的过程中，这些内容都逐渐消失了， 即使我正在说的内容都在逐渐消失， 所以你的意识变得彻底的空白，崭新，因此十分精致。
40:19 A: Yes, I was thinking that we would, of course, immediately think there’s something wrong with anyone who had such a notion, but the idea of a train came to mind – someone thinking that the nature of a train was merely adding on freight cars and he just never takes a ride. He just never realizes that the train is ordered to journey and consequently nothing starts. 安：是的，我认为 我们立刻会觉得的， 任何有这样想法的人是错误的。 当火车的观念进入脑海时， 有的人认为火车就是只是 用来拉货的， 他从来没有坐过火车。 他从未意识到火车是用来旅行的， 因此任何事情都没有发生。
40:48 K: It’s like a man plowing, plowing, plowing, never sowing. You see, and all these swamis, yogis, all the teachers that come over, they’re all adding, adding, adding to the content. And the analyst comes along and says, ‘Let us add some more to it or analyze more the content’; never saying, ‘Look, empty the content and see what happens’ – which is total freedom. 克：这就像一个人只是不停犁地，但是从不播种。 你看，所用那些哲人，瑜伽师， 所有的导师， 他们总是在给这个内容不断增加东西。 然后分析师来了，就会说， 让我们再增加一些东西或者分析一下这些内容。 他们从来不会说：“看，让我们清空这些内容，然后看看会发生什么” 这才是彻底的自由。
41:35 A: And he isn’t supposed to ask how he’s going to start emptying. 安：然后他们就会问，要如何开始清空。
41:38 K: This is it, sir. Not ‘how’, but the art of listening, the art of seeing very clearly. 克：是的，先生。 不是如何，而是聆听的艺术， 清晰的看到的艺术。
41:50 A: Do you think that we ask ‘how’ in relation to ‘art’ because ‘art’ is usually thought of as a skill and a skill is regarded as a ‘how to’. 安：你是否觉得，人们问“如何”是因为“艺术”这个词， 因为“艺术”通常被认为是一种技巧， 技巧就是”如何“。
42:03 K: Yes, technical skill. 克：是的，技巧性的东西。
42:07 A: But, of course, art does have the other meaning of joining together. 安：但是，艺术当然也有其他含义， 例如连结。
42:13 K: Yes, fitting. Art means to fit.

A: To fit. The Latin has that notion of bringing together. I have a feeling that ancient man, as different from modern man, really thought that’s what ‘knowing’ meant. 		克：是的，适合的。艺术意味变得适合。

安：是的，变适合。 拉丁文有表示连结的概念。 我认为，古代人不同于现在人， 他们真的认为“知道”这个词是什么意思。
42:33 K: Putting everything in place. 克：把所有事物放到正确的位置。
42:36 A: Yes. Seeing the thing in terms of what it is, is to know. 安：是的，看到事物本来的面目就是“知道”。
42:46 K: Obviously.

A: But later we got away from that. 		克：显然如此。

安：但是之后我们偏离了这一点。
42:52 K: Don’t you think, sir, we have made knowledge as the most extraordinarily important thing? 克：先生，你是否觉得 我们把知识当成了最重要的事？
43:04 A: Accumulating information.

K: Accumulating information. 		安：积累信息。

克：是的，积累信息。
43:08 A: Yes I know. Yes, I have a rather dramatic time with my classes about that because I tell them that there won’t be any memory work to speak of in this course because there’s no sense in trying to memorize all this stuff if we haven’t got to the heart of the matter yet. 安：是的，你知道，对此我有些戏剧性的经历。 我有一门关于这个的课程， 我在课上说这门课没有任何记忆的任务， 因为记忆这些事情并没有意义， 如果我们不能用心领悟这一切。
43:25 K: Quite. Quite. 克：是的。
43:26 A: And invariably, after about a week or two, someone comes up and says to me, ‘But, I really don’t know what’s going on!’. And of course the reason that they don’t know what’s going on is because they have bought this concept, thought, and they hang onto it, like the man hanging onto a precipice, if he lets go, he thinks he’s killed. 安：然后，不可避免的，过了一两周， 一些学生就来对我说， “我真的不知道（这门课）到底在干什么”。 他们之所以不知道是在干什么， 是因为他们渴望得到观念，思想， 他们紧抓着这些， 就像一个人紧抓着悬崖， 如果他放手，他觉得他会死。
43:55 K: Do you remember that story of a teacher who had a disciple, and the disciple stayed with him for fifteen years and at the end of fifteen years, he says, ‘Master, I haven’t learned. I am nowhere. Where am I? I’m just what I was and I’m sorry I have to leave you because you have taught me nothing’. He goes away and comes back ten years later. He says, ‘Master, I’ve got it!’ He says, ‘What have you got?’ ‘You see that river over there, I can walk across it. I’ve taken fifteen years to learn that’. And the teacher says, ‘Don’t you know there’s a boat round the corner’. 克：你记得那个关于大师和他的门徒的故事吗？ 门徒在大师身边跟随了15年， 15年之后，门徒说，”师傅，我没有学到任何事。 我们没有任何进展，我现在身处何方？我还是我原来的样子， 抱歉，我要离开你了，因为你没教我任何事。” 他离开了，十年之后他又回来了。 他说，“师傅，我学到！” 大师问，“你学到了什么？” “你看到那条河了吗？我可以走过去。 我花了15年来学这件事。“ 他的老师说，” 你不知道那边有一条船吗？“
44:52 A: Acquiring a power. There’s a marvelous story too about St. Anthony and his disciples that I’ve always cherished very much. When the disciple came running to him and said, ‘St. Anthony, the Lord vouchsafed me a vision. He did, a vision’. And the old Saint said, ‘Did he now? Well, go back and pray a little more and it’ll go away’. What a shock! He thought he had it made. Well, I’m very much taken with this point that while on the one hand, seeing, and hearing, as you brought it forward, are not transferable, and on that account, since you said they were miracles, that they couldn’t be, and yet somehow or other it starts. I take it that one does nothing about that. One simply waits. 安：获得力量、 还有一个关于圣安东尼和他的门徒的绝妙故事， 我一直很喜欢。 圣安东尼的门徒跑过来对他说， ”圣安东尼，上帝赐予了我幻视。真的是幻视。“ 老圣人说，“他现在还在这么做？ 那你回去吧，多祷告一会，幻视就会消失的。” 太讽刺了！ 他以为已经达成了。 我很接受这一点， 一方面， 看，听，正如你说的， 是不能转述的， 当然既然你说他们是奇迹， 那肯定如此， 但有时他们又会发生。 我认为， 人对此不能做任何事，他只能简单的等待。
46:15 K: I think that is really, sir, to hear, and then that act of hearing is a seed that’s operating without your knowing it. It’s like that robber who was dying and he gathered all his four sons, he said, ‘The Lord blessed us. We’ve gathered and robbed so well, nobody has caught us, and we have accumulated a great deal of money. We must bless the Lord’. And he dies. And the four sons take him to the burning ground and come back. And in the square there’s a man talking about goodness, being good, righteous, and the three other sons don’t hear before they see what it is and close their ears. And the fourth son closes his ears like them, but he treads on a thorn and he has to move his hands. Then he hears the preacher saying, ‘Be good. Be kind. Don’t hurt anybody’. And that hearing, from that day he ceased to be a robber. You follow?

A: Yes, I do. 		克：先生，我觉得关键是听， 聆听的行为， 就是一个种子，他会在你不知不觉中自己生长。 有一个故事，一个濒死的强盗， 他把他的四个儿子叫到身边， 他说，“上帝祝福我们， 我们抢劫了这么久，却没人抓住我们， 我们还积蓄了很多钱， 我们要感谢上帝。” 然后他死了。 他的四个儿子去火化他，然后回来。 这时广场上有人在谈论善良， 做一个正直的好人， 其中三个儿子没有听到， 因为他们刚看到这些，就把耳朵捂上了。 第四个儿子也学他们把耳朵捂上， 但是他踩到了荆棘上，不得已挪开了手。 然后他就听到了宣讲者说的什么， 做一个好人，不要去伤害他人。 自从这一天天听到这些，他就再也不做强盗了。 你明白吗？

安：我明白。
47:43 K: It is that sense of acute hearing 克：这就是有强度的聆听。
47:50 A: It makes it as though it’s undertaken obliquely. 安：它能做到这一点，虽然不是直接作用。
47:54 K: Yes. It does. You can’t invite the thing. If you could invite it, then it’s finished, like these people who say, ‘Invite God, will of God’, all that, it’s this desire to invite something immeasurable into your petty little mind. 克：是的。你不能邀请那件事。 如果你邀请它，它就结束了， 就像人们说“邀请上帝，上帝的意愿”等等， 这只是一种欲望，要求不可测度的事物， 到你小小的头脑里来。
48:26 A: It’s interesting that he stepped on a thorn. He was shocked and he suffered.

K: Who, sir? 		安：他踩到了荆棘上，这很有趣， 他受到打击，他承受痛苦。

克：谁？
48:34 A: This robber who, in stepping on the thorn, came to hear, but it was attended by a shock.

K: Yes. 		安：那个强盗，踩到了荆棘上，然后过来听， 他被打击触动了。

克：是的。
48:46 A: And by suffering. 安：被痛苦打击了。
48:48 K: Yes, if you like to put it that way. 克：是的，如果你想这样说的话。
48:52 A: Not that he went out and tried to suffer in order to hear. 安：当然他不是为了让自己能聆听才故意受苦。
48:56 K: No, no. 克：不是，不是。
48:57 A: Or that he went around looking for thorns to step on, because the thorn would give him the feeling. No, no, but it is interesting that in the story there was a shock. 安：或者他故意寻找荆棘去踩上去， 因为荆棘会给他带来那种感觉。 不是的，但是有趣的是，这个故事里提到了打击，震惊。
49:07 K: No, sir, I mean this question of sorrow and shock, must one go through life with sorrow? Must one have sorrow in order that sorrow opens the door. Must one go through that? 克：不是先生，我是想说悲伤和打击的事， 一个人一生必须伴随悲伤吗？ 一个人必须经历悲伤，才能打开那扇门吗？ 一个人必须经历这一切吗？
49:35 A: That one does, doesn’t mean one must. 安：一个人可以经历，但不意味着必须经历。
49:37 K: One does, but is it essential? Is it right? Is it true? Sorrow of any kind, sir. My son dies. It’s a tremendous shock because I’ve invested all kinds of things in him and it’s a tremendous shock and great sorrow. Either in that sorrow I withdraw, become hard, cynical, bitter, enclosed, or, that sorrow forces me to seek comfort in a theory, in an idea, in a conclusion, or, that sorrow has no answer. Only that sorrow exists and not to move away from it, just ‘what is’. Remain with ‘what is’. 克：一个人可以经历，那这种经历是根本的东西吗？ 是正确的、真实的吗？ 悲伤有很多种。例如，我的儿子死了。 这是巨大的震惊和打击， 因为我在我儿子身上倾注了各种的事， 这是巨大的打击和悲伤。 在这种悲伤中，我或者退缩回去， 变得痛苦，愤世嫉俗，坚硬，封闭， 或者，这种悲伤强迫我去寻找舒适， 在一种理论，一个观点，一个结论中， 或者，这份悲伤没有答案， 只有悲伤本身存在， 我不会从悲伤中移开， 就是“事实所是”，和事实共处。
50:56 A: See it. 安：观察它。
50:57 K: See, hear it, listen to it, find out. You follow? Listen completely to it. Then it throws you right out. So there are these three categories of human beings who – I don’t know if anybody does remain complete with sorrow, not get embittered, hopeless, dispirited – you know all that – but to remain with it as you remain with a lovely flower. And you’re looking at it. You’re seeing it. 克：是的，聆听他，弄清楚，你明白吗？ 彻底的聆听它。然后它就会把你扔出去。 所以，存在三类人， 我不知道是否有人能彻底与悲伤共处， 不变的充满怨恨，痛苦，绝望，沮丧，等等， 只是和悲伤共处，就想你和一朵美丽的花共处。 你看着它。
51:33 A: You’re not looking at it in order to get rid of it. 安：你看着它，不是为了摆脱它。
51:35 K: No. 克：当然。
51:36 A: That’s not what you mean. Yes, I understand that. That seems to be a terribly important thing to stress because perhaps persons do have the notion, at least they seem to me oftentimes in conversation with students I get the feeling that they will undertake to try to find out what seeing and hearing is in the hope that when they’re found they won’t have to be unhappy anymore. They won’t have to be sorrowful anymore, and that’s plainly incorrect. 安：我明白，这不是你的意思。 我觉得有一件事必须强调一下， 因为人们也许会有这样的观念， 至少对我来说，有时和学生交谈时， 我感觉他们 他们尝试去发现，去观察，聆听， 是寄希望于，当他们发现了某些东西， 他们就再也不会不开心了， 他们就再也不会悲伤了， 我觉得这并不对。
52:11 K: No. You see, sir, take Christianity: the whole of sorrow is given over to one man and they worship sorrow. And the whole Asiatic world says sorrow is bad karma – karma being what you did in past life is you’re paying for it this life and bear with it, go on with it, suffer over it and later on, in next life, you’ll get rid of it. It’s the same, you follow?

A: Oh, yes. Yes. 		克：当然。举基督教的例子， 人类全部的痛苦都被加于一个人身上， 然后他们崇拜痛苦。 而整个亚洲世界，则说痛苦是因为不好的业， 业就是你过去生命中做过的事， 你今生要偿还， 要忍耐它，承受痛苦， 然后，到了下辈子，你就可以摆脱它。 这都是相似的把戏，你明白吗？

安：是的，是的。
52:53 K: They never say, look, let’s find, let’s end it, not give it over to somebody or to some theory, but let’s find out if there is a way of living in which sorrow doesn’t exist. I think that’s tremendously important because sorrow does dreadful things to human beings. 克：他们从不说，看，让我们发现……，让我们结束痛苦， 不是把痛苦加于某人，或者某种理论， 而是让我们发现，是否有一种生活方式， 在其中痛苦并不存在。 我认为这是极端重要的， 因为痛苦对人类做了许多可怕的事。
53:21 A: It is a fact that many Christians have that idea. And it is especially strange because Jesus patently said that it was a joy that he came to give. 安：是的，这是事实。许多基督徒都有这样的想法。 这是很奇怪的，因为基督说过， 这是一种幸福，因此他决定这么做。
53:33 K: No, but you know what I mean. 克：不不，你知道我的意思。
53:35 A: Yes. I know exactly what you mean. I didn’t mean by saying that to contradict what you said. 安：是的，我知道你的意思。 我不是说（基督）这样说和你说的是矛盾的。
53:41 K: No, no, sir. 克：不不，先生。

安：我只是指出，这里有巨大的不幸和误解
53:49 K: I think it is, you know, the ancient literature of India, Rig Veda, in that, I’ve been told, there is no mention of God at all, only the love of beauty, nature, love of light – you follow? – the sun and all that. And it was so simple the priests came along and said, ‘Look, this is too simple. Let’s make it a little complicated’ and began. I think that’s what happens with all these things. 克：是的，你知道， 在印度的古老文献《梨俱吠陀》中， 曾经有人告诉我，这其中根本没有提及任何神， 只有对美的爱，对自然，光明的爱，你明白吗？ 爱阳光等等。 一切都非常简单。牧师跑过说， “看，这些都太简单了，让我们弄复杂点。” 然后一切就开始了。 我认为这就是所发生的事情。
54:27 A: Of course there is a way of reading the Rig Veda in which one does walk around in this wonderland where these gods are not seen as over against one, but rather the energies that inform one so that he is able to undertake seriousness and righteousness. But then we’re back again. One can’t really communicate that in the sense of transfer that relation to this text.

K: Oh, no. You see that opens up this whole question of personal experience. I mean, we want reality as a personal experience. And so many people say, ‘I have experienced truth. I have become enlightened, self-realized’, all that business, which is all personal achievement. I think this is so totally wrong because truth isn’t yours or mine. It’s there. 		安：当然，这是阅读《梨俱吠陀》的一种方法， 人们在这仙境中走来走去， 这里神并不被认为是某种与其他事物对立的东西， 而是被视为可以影响人的能量， 所以人们能 正确并严肃的行动。 但是这样我们又回到这一点， 一个人无法用语言 去传递这些东西。

克：当然不能。 你看，这样就引出了个人经验的问题， 我的意思是，我们希望真相成为一种个人经验。 有许多人说，我体验了真相。 我开悟了，我实现了，等等， 这些都是个人的成就， 我觉得这一切全都错了， 因为真相不是你的或我的，他就是真相。
55:48 A: If one sees and hears the way you’ve been pointing out the case, then self-actualization takes care of itself. You don’t have to work at it.

K: That’s it, Yes. 		安：如果一个人听到或者看到你指出的这些， 那自我实现其实就自己发生了。 你不需要做什么。

克：是的。
55:58 A: I see what you mean. Now we certainly do have the notion that self-actualization is something to screw ourselves up into all sorts of muscular effort to attain to. 安：我理解你的意思。 现在我们有这样一种观念，自我实现 是要以某种方式努力，就像锻炼肌肉一样。
56:11 K: I think it’s the same thing as when you have a weak muscle, you practise, you do things to strengthen it. That same idea is carried over psychologically and you thereby say, ‘Well, I must practise, I must gain’ – you follow? All that comes in, whereas the psychological strengthening is the ending of the conflict, not the practising of overcoming conflict. 克：当你肌肉虚弱的时候， 你会锻炼肌肉，努力去强化肌肉。 相同的观念也被带入到心理领域了， 就像你说的， 我必须练习才能达成什么，你明白吗？ 这一切都被带入心理领域，然而心理上变强， 是结束冲突， 不是不断练习，从而引发更多冲突。
56:42 A: We run by running.

K: Yes. 		安：我们奔跑着摆脱奔跑这件事。

克：是的。
56:45 A: Right. Yes, no, I think I understand. 安：是的，我认为我理解了。
56:49 K: I think we’ll have to stop. 克：我认为我们要停一下了。