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SD72CA2 - 教育的意义是什么？
与艾伦·W·安德森博士的第二次对话，圣地亚哥，美国
1972年2月16日



0:21 Krishnamurti in Dialogue with Dr. Allan W. Anderson J. Krishnamurti was born in South India and educated in England. For the past 40 years he has been speaking in the United States, Europe, India, Australia, and other parts of the world. From the outset of his life’s work he repudiated all connections with organised religions and ideologies and said that his only concern was to set man absolutely unconditionally free. He is the author of many books, among them The Awakening of Intelligence, The Urgency of Change, Freedom From the Known, and The Flight of the Eagle. In dialogue with Krishnamurti is Dr. Allan W. Anderson, professor of religious studies at San Diego State University where he teaches Indian and Chinese scriptures and the oracular tradition. Dr. Anderson, a published poet, acquired his degree from Columbia University and the Union Theological Seminary. He has been honoured with the distinguished Teaching Award from the California State University. 克里希那穆提与艾伦.W.安德森博士的对话 J.克里希那穆提生于南印度， 在英国接受教育。 在过去的四十年里， 他在美国、 欧洲、印度、澳大利亚及世界其他地区，举行了大量演讲和对话。 在他毕生工作开始之初，他就否定了和所有 有组织的宗教或者意识形态的联系。 他说他只关心， 人类彻底的，无条件的自由。 他一生著作颇丰， 例如《智慧的觉醒》（The Awakening of Intelligence）、 《转变的急迫性》（The Urgency of Change） 《从已知中解脱》（Freedom From the Known）及《鹰之高翔》（The Flight of the Eagle）等。 和克里希那穆提对话的，是艾伦.W.安德森博士， 他是圣地亚哥州立大学的宗教学教授， 他在那里教授印度和中国经文， 以及传统的宗教文学。 安德森教授出版过诗作， 他在哥伦比亚大学及 纽约协和神学院获得学位。 他也曾获得加州州立大学的 杰出教学奖。
1:33 Anderson: Mr. Krishnamurti, in your book ‘Education and the Significance of Life’, you write about discipline and I remember, and I hope I’ve remembered correctly that you talk about discipline as essentially beginning with the child or the student in the sense that the child must be helped to see the cause of his behaviour. But now the teacher is the one who helps him do this. And it seemed to me very clear that what you were saying is essentially that discipline rather begins with the teacher. It would require the teacher to be very disciplined himself. And what does it mean not simply to admonish the child, but to try to penetrate into the cause of his misbehavior? 安：克里希那穆提先生，在你的书 教育与人生的意义中《Education and the Significance of Life》， 你提到了纪律， 如果我记得正确的话， 你说过 纪律（discipline）对于孩子或学生来说是根本性的起点， 这意味着 孩子必须被帮助去看到自己行为的动机。 因为现在老师是能提供帮助的人， 所以对我而言，你所说的意味着 纪律对老师来说也是根本性的开始， 老师需要在自己身上首先拥有纪律。 这意味着不是简单的责备孩子们， 而是尝试去看穿他们错误行为的原因，是这样吗？
2:38 Krishnamurti: Sir, what do we mean by that word ‘discipline’? What does that word mean actually, as it is generally accepted? 克：先生，我们所谓的纪律是什么意思？ 这个词事实上，通常被认为是什么意思？
2:49 A: I think it usually means training. It has to do, of course, etymologically with teaching. 安：我认为它通常意味着训练。 当然，从词源上看，它也教育有关。
2:58 K: Teaching, yes. That’s what I was going to say. It has to do with disciple who learns from the master. It is a way of learning. Not conforming to a pattern, not subjugating oneself to an ideal, to suppressing oneself in order to be something. I mean the general meaning as it is now used, it implies conformity, suppression, comparison, drilling oneself in order to be, to fit into a particular – like a military discipline and so on. All such disciplines must invariably create conflict in the human being. 克：教育，是的。这就是我要说的。 纪律和学徒（disciple）有关，学徒就是从大师那里学习的人。 “纪律”是一种学习的方式。不遵从某种模式， 不让自身屈服于某种观点， 不为了成为某样东西而压制自己。 但这个词现在通常的意思 是遵循，压制，比较， 训练自己去适应某种特定的模式， 这就是像是军事纪律。 所有这种类似的纪律，不可避免的会给人类带来冲突。
4:00 A: If the child, let us say, very small, is taught the alphabet and how to trace the letter, he must make an ‘A’ when he’s trying to make an ‘A’, not a ‘B’. 安：那让我们假设有一个非常小的孩子， 正在学字母表，学写字母， 当他尝试写'A'的时候，他就必须写'A'，而不是'B'。
4:16 K: No, no. 克：当然。
4:17 A: Now, are you suggesting that in trying to make this ‘A’ and holding to the form of ‘A’ that he necessarily will generate conflict? 安：那按照你说的，在努力学习写'A'， 并且记住‘A'的写法的过程中， 他必然会产生冲突，是吗？
4:33 K: Probably he does, but I would rather, if I may suggest, look at it from the point of view of the educator rather than the child. Shall we?

A: Yes. Please. 		克：也许会有冲突。但是首先，如果我能建议的话， 让我们从教育者 而不是孩子的角度看问题。 可以吗？

安：当然可以。
4:46 K: What is the function of an educator? Not the educated, not the student, not the child, but what is the function of an educated teacher? 克：教育者的功能是什么？ 不是被教育者，学生，或者孩子， 而是教育者，老师的功能是什么？
5:02 A: Well, I had always thought it was two-fold. On the one hand, to draw from the person some manifestation of his latent capacity. And on the other hand, to teach him something different from what he knows now. 安：我认为有两个方面。 一方面，从某人身上 获取某种他潜在的能力的展现。 另一方面， 去教给他一些，他所不知道的新东西。
5:29 K: We’re talking about the educator, the teacher. 克：我们是在说教师。
5:32 A: Yes, the educator. 安：是的，教师。
5:33 K: Not the child or the student – the educator. 克：不是孩子，或者学生。
5:36 A: No, the educator, the one who educates I had always thought has this two-fold responsibility. 安：是的，是教育者。 我认为教育者有两方面的责任。
5:42 K: Which is? 克：是什么？
5:44 A: On the one hand, to draw from the student. 安：一方面，从学生身上发现一些东西。
5:50 K: Ah, no, I’m not talking of the student at all. 克：不不，我完全没有在谈学生。
5:56 K: What is the function of an educator? If I am a teacher, what is my function? What is important? 克：教育者的功能是什么？ 如果我是一名老师，我的功能是什么？ 我的重要性在哪里？
6:05 A: To avail myself to the student in such a way that the student can learn. 安；让学生可以通过我们 学到一些东西。
6:10 K: Which means, the educator must establish a relationship with the student which is not hierarchical, authoritarian – you up there and me below – but a relationship of mutual enquiry, study, sharing, communication all that is implied in the educator, isn’t it? If you are a teacher, as you are, sir – I am a student. If you are the educator, you must establish a certain relationship with me. Is that relationship based on giving me information? 克：这意味着， 教育者必须跟学生建立一种， 不是阶级化的，基于权威的关系， 你高高在上，而我处于下位， 而是一种可以互相，探索，学习，分享， 交流的关系， 所有这些都是教育者应该要做到的，不是吗？ 先生，如果你是老师， 我是学生。 如果你是教育者， 你必须和我建立一种关系。 这种关系是基于你给我知识吗？
7:18 A: No, no. 安：不是。
7:19 K: Is it based on this sense of ‘you know, I don’t know’. 克：这种关系是基于你知道，而我不知道吗？
7:26 A: Partly, partly. 安：部分的。
7:30 K: The meaning, the significance, the authoritarian background of ‘you know, I don’t know’; therefore there is an assumption of authority in that. 克：这意味着， 一种权威的背景，因为你知道，而我不知道， 因此这其中就存在一个权威。
7:47 A: Do you mind if we go back to the little child? 安：你介意我回到那个小孩子的问题吗？
7:49 K: Yes, all right. 克：好吧。
7:52 A: It is the case that the teacher knows how to make the ‘A’ correctly. 安：老师知道如何正确的写A。
7:56 K: But we’ll come back to that.

A: Oh, all right. 		克：我们一会再说这个。

安：好的。
7:59 K: I’m just wondering, what is the quality of relationship between the teacher and the student. The teacher is more important than the student for the time being, because we are enquiring into what is the state of the educator, what is the quality of the educator. We said that he must establish a relationship, a relationship in which the authoritarian spirit completely goes. Otherwise, you treat me like a servant – our relationship is entirely different, based on ‘you know, I don’t know’ this degree of knowledge. And you are imparting some information to me. Is that all? Or, is much more involved in it? That the teacher is not only established in a real relationship, wanting to communicate his information, and also he wants, doesn’t he, to bring about a quality of intelligence in the student which is not merely the intelligence of the activity of knowledge. It is much more. So the educator has to be intelligent in the deep sense of that word – not knowledgeable. 克：我在想，这种关系的品质是怎样的？ 老师和学生之间的关系。 老师比学生更重要， 就目前这个话题， 因为我们在讨论教师的状态， 教师的品质。 我们说他必须建立一种关系， 一种不存在 任何权威的关系。 否则，你对我像对仆人一样， 我们的关系就完全不一样了， 基于你知道，而我不知道，基于知识的多少， 你向我灌输一些信息。 这就是全部吗？或者（这种关系中）还有更多的内容？ 老师不只是建立了一种可以 分享他的信息的关系， 同时他也希望， 给学生带来一种智慧的品质， 不只是有关知识活动的智慧。 要超越这些。 所以教育者本身要有智慧， 在这个词最深层的意思上，不是富有知识。
9:46 A: No, intelligent.

K: Intelligent. And the teacher wants to convey his information so that the student in getting the information, is cultivating or growing in intelligence – I don’t know how – refinement, the quality of clarity. 		安：是，智慧。

克：智慧的。 所以教师可以传达他的信息， 学生在得到这些信息的过程中， 可以培养（智慧）或者在智慧中成长。 我不知道如何形容，那种清晰（clarity）的品质。
10:16 A: Clarity

K: Clarity. And also he wants to establish a relationship of real friendship, real affection, real love between himself and the student. 		安：清晰。

克：是的，清晰。 同时他也想建立一种真正的友谊， 真正的热爱，他和学生之间真正的爱。
10:28 A: Yes, I think that’s very, very essential – especially that. 安：是的，我认为这是非常，非常根本的。
10:32 K: Yes, Especially that. 克：是的，尤其是这一点。
10:34 A: One of the things that fascinated me about a hymn in the Rig Veda, is that speech, the Goddess Speech, appears among friends. 安：《梨俱吠陀》最吸引我的内容之一，是一首赞美诗， ”朋友之间总会出现女神的声音“
10:46 K: Yes, sir. 克：是的。
10:47 A: It’s as though intelligibility disappears when enemies come together. K. That’s right.

A: Please, go ahead. 		安：”而当敌人聚到一起， 智慧就消失了。“

克：是的。

安：请继续。
10:55 K: When there is that quality of love, affection, a relationship, no sense of authority, awakening or cultivating or bringing about that intelligence in the student, then the responsibility of the teacher is enormous. After all, we are creating a new generation. Which means the teacher cannot belong to the establishment – ‘establishment’ in the sense of the orthodox, the social acceptance – he must be vitally different in himself from the rest of the world. 克：当然存在爱，关爱的品质，存在没有 权威的关系， 这就会唤醒，培养，或者带来 学生的智慧， 因此教师的责任是巨大的。 毕竟，我们在创造崭新的一代。 这意味着教师不能属于旧有的架构， 旧有的架构，就是社会规范， 社会接受的东西， 他自身必须和其他世界完全不同。
11:45 A: He must be himself. 安：他必须是他自己。
11:46 K: Himself. Not himself, that brings in a different story. 克：不是做自己，这会牵扯到其他问题。
11:50 A: No, I know what you mean. But he must be authentic. 安：不是，我知道你的意思。但他必须是真实的。
11:53 K: He must be authentic, and have integrity – not just say one thing, do another. So that, in the presence of the teacher, the student feels completely secure. Because with the teacher he’s at home. Not with the family, because the family is too – they have their own problems, their own ambitions, their own greed, they are fighting. The student with the teacher feels now at last here is somebody who really cares. 克：他必须是真实的，具有完整性， 不会说一件事，却做另外的事。 所以，因为存在这样的老师， 学生感到了彻底的安全。 因为在这个老师身边，就像回家一样。 不是在家人身边，因为家人也有 他们自己的问题，他们自己的野心， 他们贪婪，他们也在彼此斗争。 学生在老师身边，感到至少 有人真正关心他。
12:38 A: This raises a question I should like very much to ask you, Mr Krishnamurti, about two apparently radically different notions of education. I’ve always been very impressed with the understanding that I think Indian culture has about the need for the student to abide with the teacher... 安：这带来了一个问题， 我很想问你，克里希那穆提， 关于教育的两个完全不同的概念。 我对这一点印象很深， 我认为在印度文化中， 学生需要陪伴自己的老师
13:10 K: Yes, that is the old tradition. 克：是的，那是古老的传统。
13:13 A:... on the basis of a true inter-personal relationship. 安：基于真正的人与人之间的关系。
13:16 K: He lived in the house of the teacher. He was part of the family of the teacher. He was brought up with the teacher’s children, so that he was the parent (not the mother and father), but he was the real parent who cared for him immensely. And when once you establish that kind of relationship with a student, I want to learn from you. I want you tell me. I’m awfully eager to find out what you know. Then, when you like me, it has quite a different feeling in it. 克：学生就住在老师家里。 他是老师家庭的一部分。 他和老师的孩子一起长大， 所以老师就是家长（不是父亲或者母亲）， 但是老师是真的无比关心他的家长。 一旦你和学生建立这样的关系， （学生就会）想从你身上学习，我想让你告诉我， 我十分迫切的想知道你发现了什么。 同时，当你爱我时，这就有十分不同的感觉。
14:07 A: More than a copy book! Yes, I follow you. 安：不只是一个复制品！是的，我明白。
14:11 K: And then also you don’t compare me with another student. If you compare me with another student, you are destroying the other student because I am probably dull and you compare me to somebody who is cleverer, there’s this conflict. In comparison, competition, you know, all that is bred in me. Where if you say, ‘Look, I’m teaching you, don’t bother, I’m not comparing you with anybody, you are’. So there is this sense of extraordinary feeling of intimacy, flow, friendship, without any sense of ‘you must be this or that’. Then my mind wants to learn. 克：同时你不会把我和其他学生进行比较。 如果你把我和其他学生进行比较， 你就把那个学生也给毁了， 因为我可能比较迟钝， 你把我和更聪明的学生比较， 这就产生了冲突。 在比较，竞争之中，你知道，那些都会对我有影响。 但是如果你说，”看，我在教导你，不用担心， 我不会把你和其他人作比较。“ 所以存在 不同寻常的亲密，流动感，友谊， 完全没有你必须做这个，做那个（的想法）。 这样我就会想学习。
15:04 A: In our culture we think we understand something of that when we refer to what we call the Socratic truth. 安：在我们的文化中，我们会把这种情况 认为是所谓，苏格拉底式的。
15:13 K: Socratic, yes. But you can’t do this with three hundred, or forty, fifty, or a hundred students in the class. 克：苏格拉底式的，是的。 但是你不能对着 三四百，四十，五十，或者一百个学生这样做。
15:21 A: No, no. So what do you do? 安：当然，所以你是怎么做的？
15:23 K: That’s the point, sir, that’s just it. Given things as they are, you can’t suddenly bring about a revolution and have only ten students for each professor or teacher. That would be impossible. I should have thought if the educator had that quality of mind and feeling, he would spot out a few of the students, that boy, that girl, half a dozen, and care for them much more, give them, take them home, talk to them, walk with them, play with them. You follow, sir, this sense of – I did it a bit in various schools but I stopped in each place, I’m told, a shorter time. But if there is this feeling of real friendship, and affection, love, the student feels completely at home. And then you can see that boy, this girl – you follow? – you can have half a dozen, then they really are your children. They would be the elite – I know in democracy the word ‘elite’ is something terrible, but it is the elite. After all, you are the elite of a culture which says give more importance, you know, religion, philosophy – to you that’s important. 克：这是关键，先生。 实事求是的说， 你不能突然带来一场革命， 让每个教授或者老师只有几个学生。 这不可能。 我会想， 如果教育者，真的具有这种品质的意识和感觉， 他会挑选几个学生， 五六个，男孩女孩， 十分关心他们，为他们付出， 带他们回家，和他们讨论，散步，一起玩耍。 你明白吗？先生，这种感觉， 我在许多学校做过这样的事， 我会在各处停留，较短的时间。 但是如果有这样的 真正的友善，关爱，爱的感觉， 学生感觉完全就像在家里一样。 这样你就能看到那些男孩女孩，你明白吗？ 你可以有五六个学生，他们真的就是你的孩子。 他们就是精英， 我知道在民主社会，精英这个词意味着一些糟糕的东西， 但是他们就是精英。 毕竟，你就是这样一种文化的精英， 这种文化认为宗教，哲学很重要， 对你来说这是很重要的。
17:01 A: I think we do tend quite badly to get upset about a distinction of that sort because after all in the last analysis surely what is meant by elite is simply that somebody does what he does well. 安：我觉得我们会很沮丧， 对这种区分， 因为毕竟根据最新的分析， 精英 只是意味着某人做某事很好。
17:19 K: Yes, if you are a good, first-class carpenter, you are an elite.

A: That’s right. 		克：是的，如果你是好的，一流的木匠， 你就是精英。

安：是的。
17:25 K: If you love carpentry, not because you are going to get eight, ten or fifteen dollars a day – you may get fifteen dollars – but the thing in itself. 克：如果你热爱木匠活， 不是因为你能一天获得八、十、或者十五美元， 你也许能获得十五美元，但是重要的是这件事本身。
17:36 A: We have generated a rather curious notion, it does seem to me altogether a dysfunctional one. And I would be very grateful for your light on this. I have never taught in grade school or in high school, so I’m only talking about what I’ve heard and read. But we did begin some time ago if I’m not mistaken, a tendency to level the performance of students, so that if a student is gifted, bright, and devoted to his task, he is naturally going to excel. But we must be careful somehow or other that we don’t really encourage him too much in that 安：我们有一种古怪的概念， 在我看来是一种功能失调。 我会很感激你给出你的看法。 我从来没有教过小学或者中学， 我只谈论我听到和读到的东西。 但是我们确实不久前开始，如果我没记错的话， 倾向去给学生的表现评级， 所以如果学生 很有天赋，很聪明，并且献身于他的任务， 他自然会变优秀。 但是我们也必须小心， 我们没有在这方面过于鼓励他。
18:32 K: But, sir, after all, if I’m the educator, I want him to excel. 克：但是，先生，毕竟，如果我是教育者，我希望他杰出。
18:37 A: Of course, of course, exactly. 安：当然，肯定的。
18:39 K: Not excel and get benefit or exploit others. After all, if you excel in something, it’s marvelous. But if you use that excellency in order to crush me... 克：不是杰出，然后获得奖励，或者去剥削别人。 毕竟，如果你在某方面很杰出，那是了不起的。 但是如果你运用这份杰出去压榨我
18:56 A: It’s disastrous. 安：这就是灾难性的。
18:58 K: That’s what is taking place.

A: Yes. Well, I suppose the sentiment that we employed was in itself not much more than sentimental. 		克：这就是正在发生的事。

安：是的。 我假设我们谈论的观点， 不是非常的感情化。
19:13 A: It turns out to be cruel because sentimentality always becomes cruel. Yes. Yes, I know. It’s awfully hard to make that point in a class of fifty or a hundred people because we do cherish the things that we hold sentimental. 安：不然就会带来残忍，感情化总会变的残忍。 是的，是的。做到这一点是很难的， 在一个五十或一百人的教室里， 因为我们会珍视我们赋予了情感的东西。
19:29 K: That’s why, sir, I feel the educator is far more important than the student. 克：是的，先生。这就是为何 教育者远比学生重要。
19:37 A: Yes, I understand. Yes, that’s why I wanted to hear what you said about discipline beginning with the educator rather than the other way around, with the student. There’s another question I should like to ask you, if I may, about the idea of a child's behaving badly in the sense of becoming a disciplinary problem. On the one hand, there’s a clinical approach in which one might say, ‘Well, now, let’s get behind it, let’s look into the cause of it’. 安：是的，我理解。 这就是为何，我希望你说 纪律首先开始于教育者， 而非其他方法认为的先开始于学生。 这是另一个我想问的问题，如果我能问的话， 关于孩子的错误的行为， 这就变成了纪律的问题。 一方面，有一种临床的方法，我会说 “现在，让我们跟上他，看看这些行动的原因。”
20:17 K: The cause of it. An analytical process, yes. 克：行动的原因。是的，一种分析式的方法。
20:20 A: But is bad behavior necessarily caused? Would it not be quite possible for somebody to decide that he is just going to behave badly? 安：但是不当行为真的是由某种原因导致的吗？ 似乎一个人不太可能 主动决定去做一件错事。
20:37 K: And then he becomes a neurotic – it is quite a different thing. But why in the modern world children are so violent, so disorganized – so, you know what they are, you see them all over the world. Why? Is it the society in which they live, parents who have really no affection for them – you follow? – though they say, yes, we love our children – but a society, a group of parents who allow their children to be killed in a war. You follow, sir?

A: Yes, yes, I’m following. 		克：这样他会变得神经质。我们在说不同的事。 但是，为什么在现代社会 孩子如此的暴力，如此的没有组织性， 你知道他们什么样，你在全世界都能看到这种状况。 为什么？ 是因为他们生活的社会， 他们的父母，并不爱他们吗？ 你明白吗？虽然他们会说，是的，我爱我们的孩子， 但是社会，家长， 允许他们的孩子在战争中被杀害。 你明白吗？先生

安：是的，我明白。
21:33 K: Though they say we love our children, they shed tears when they get killed in Vietnam. But it is this sense, I feel, of utter lack of love for the children because they are concerned about themselves, their looks, their hair, their dresses – you follow? – their nails. God, look at the commercials and you see tremendous self-concern. 克：虽然他们说爱自己的孩子， 他们会为孩子在越南被杀害而哭泣。 但是，我感觉，他们事实上 缺乏对孩子的爱， 因为他们只关心他们自己，他们的外貌，头发， 他们的着装，甚至指甲，你明白吗？ 上帝啊，看看这个商业社会，你会看到巨大的自我关注（self-concern）。
22:06 A: In terms of what we said earlier then, we’d say that they don’t see the child. 安：我们之前就谈到过， 我们说，他们（父母）并没有看到（see）孩子。
22:09 K: No, they don’t, they don’t want to see the child because if they see the child, if they see what is going to happen to the child, they would be horrified. So they cover it up, and send them off to school, or you know, get rid of them, and the home is no longer a real home, and therefore they become delinquents, naughty, and all the rest of it. But if the teacher says ‘I’m going to give you a home, you’re my children’ – you follow, sir? Then you create something new. Not all this tremendous technological information, which is necessary, but this importance. And therefore you turn out people who don’t care for anybody. And you have these perpetual wars. If the mothers in America really said, ‘Look, we love our children, I’m not going to allow my child to be killed anymore, it doesn’t matter what happens, I’m not going to allow it’ – war would end tomorrow. But they don’t care. They care for their security, for their pleasure – you follow? 克：没有，他们没有，他们也不想去看， 因为如果他们看一看孩子， 他们就会看到孩子身上发生了什么， 他们会被吓坏。 所以他们把这一切掩盖起来， 然后把孩子送去学校，或者甚至抛弃他们， 所谓的家并不是真正的家， 因此孩子们变得淘气，行为不良， 等等。 但是如果老师说我会给你一个家， 你是我的孩子，你明白吗？先生 然后你就能创造新的事物。 不只是那些大量的技术的信息， 那些当然也是必须的， 但是这才是真正重要的事。 因为我们造就了完全不关心其他人的人， 也就有了永无止境的战争。 如果美国的妈妈们说， “看，我们爱自己的孩子， 我不会允许我的孩子被任何人杀害， 不管发生什么，我都不会允许。” 战争明天就会结束。 但是他们不关心， 他们只关心他们自己的安全和快乐，你明白吗？
23:31 A: Yes, I do. 安：是的，是的。
23:32 K: The whole ugliness of self-concern. 克：这一切如此丑陋的自我关注。
23:39 A: For a long time we’ve had the notion in education that... ‘how to teach’ can be taught. We speak about professional education, and sometimes the disagreements between the academicians solely on the one hand and the men of the class-room on the other, become rather severe. But in your view of education, would it be the case that you could really teach someone how to teach? 安：长久以来，我们在教育领域有这样的概念 教育（本身）如何才能被教会。 我们会说职业的教育家， 有时学术委员会 和 一线教育者的 矛盾是很激烈的。 但是，就你对教育的观点， 你真的可以教给别人如果去教育一个人吗？
24:24 K: I think so. Sir, what is the point of education? Why do I want to be educated? Why should I be educated? To fit into this thing? To be killed, to fight for the rest of my life, die fighting, and die with endless problems in myself? What’s the point of education? I know several people who are top – mathematically, philosophically, technically – and their life is so shoddy, meaningless; they know it. And they say, ‘My God, why ever did we even go to a college to end up like this’. Unless one understands the total meaning of living, merely to be educated to be a first-class engineer, what the heck does it all mean? 克：我认为可以。 先生，教育的意义是什么？ 我为什么想受教育？我为什么要受教育？ 就是为了适应这一切？ 为了被杀害，或者把余生用来争斗， 在争斗中死去，带着自我无尽的问题死去？ 教育的意义是什么？ 我认识一些顶尖的 数学家，哲学家，技术人员， 但他们的生活很劣质，毫无意义； 他自己也知道，他们也会这么说， "上帝啊，我们为什么要进入大学接受教育，最后却这样结束一生。” 除非一个人理解了生活的全部意义， 只是被教育成一流的工程师， 这有任何意义吗？
25:30 A: Sir, some people have written rather cogently and persuasively that Plato’s Republic is really not a political treatise but after all, really a philosophy of education. And in terms of what you’ve said some of what Socrates has remarked in that dialogue would seem to relate. For instance, Socrates’ idea that justice is the internal order of the soul, and all the weight is brought to bear upon ordering oneself interiorly so that the work of justice which is ordered to external things is done well. This must have something to do, if I’ve understood you correctly, with your requiring that the teacher first of all be able himself to see. 安：先生，有一些人写了一些非常雄辩的东西， 他们认为柏拉图的理想国不是一部政治著作， 相反，是关于教育的哲学的。 而你所说的东西， 苏格拉底也曾经说过， 他们似乎是相关的内容。 例如，苏格拉底说， 公正是灵魂内在的秩序， 所有的重量都 是由内在的秩序承受， 因此公正的行为，也就是面对外在事物的秩序， 同时就实现了。 如果我理解正确的话，这一定和你 说的，“教师必须首先自己能看到”，有关。
26:28 K: Obviously, sir! If the student is like those people who say ‘don’t smoke’ and smoke. You follow? It has no meaning. And also, sir, in this question of educating, comparison is destructive, obviously, between two students – and also this whole idea of concentration. They must learn to concentrate to study; and therefore there is this tremendous effort made to concentrate. Isn’t there a different way of doing this? Instead of forcing a child or a student to learn concentration; you understand, sir? Is there not a different approach to this problem altogether? I think there is because I have talked a little bit about it in schools, various schools I go to. 克：当然，先生。 如果学生嘴上说不吸烟，但事实上吸烟， 那没有任何意义。你明白吗？ 同时，先生，就教育而言， 显然“比较”是破坏性的，比较两个学生， 以及整个所谓集中精力（concentration）的概念。 他们必须学会集中精力学习， 因此，为了集中精力 （学生）做出了巨大的努力。 存在不同的处理方法吗？ 不是去强迫孩子或者学生去学习集中精力， 你明白吗，先生？ 存在一种不同的处理这个问题的方法吗？ 我认为存在， 因为我在学校里演讲过这个问题， 我去过很多学校。
27:44 A: I think there is, too. But perhaps if we look at in the ‘round’, what is very difficult is to bring together integrally, on the one hand, the activity of education, which has its end in itself, not outside itself, but training always has its end outside itself. So for instance, the athlete, he practises to run, not simply to be running but to improve his running. 安：我也认为存在。 但是如果我们全面考虑， 把一切整合起来是非常困难的， 一方面，在教育的活动中， 教育本身就是自己的目的，而不是在教育之外， 但对于训练来说，它有自身之外的目的。 例如，对于训练跑步的运动员， 不仅需要跑步（本身），还需要提高他的跑步（能力）。
28:26 K: And the improvement in comparison with somebody who has run faster. 克：提高的过程就需要和跑的更快的人比较。
28:30 A: No, just the record.

K: Just the record. The same thing. 		安：不是，只是记录一下。

克：记录也是一回事。
28:34 A: But not in comparison with that person. 安：不需要和其他人比较。
28:36 K: No, with the record.

A: With the record, yes. 		克：那就是和记录去比较。

安：是的，和记录比较。
28:38 K: The old person is forgotten. 克：年龄大的人就会被遗忘。
28:42 A: It has to do with the idea that I must take pains to do better than I’m doing now. Please go ahead.

K: I mean, I love what I’m doing. All my life I’ve really loved what I’m doing. 		安：我们有这样的观点，只有承受痛苦我们才能 做得更好。 请继续。

克：对我而言， 我爱我做的事情。 整个一生，我都爱我在做的事情。
29:03 A: Oh, I believe that. 安：我相信。
29:04 K: I wouldn’t do anything else – I couldn’t for money, for – nothing. This is for me, breath. I don’t want to excel in it. I don’t want to beat the record established by Buddha, Jesus or X, Y, Z. I don’t want to become somebody – popular, unpopular – that doesn’t really interest me, because I really love what I’m doing. The love of what I’m doing excludes everything else. And that very love is the highest form of excellence. 克：我不想做其他任何事， 我不会为了金钱，为了其他任何事，而做某事。 对我来说，（我做的事）这就像呼吸一样重要。 我不想变得出色。 也不想超越某个记录， 佛陀，基督，或者其他人创造的记录。 我不想变得受欢迎，或者不受欢迎， 我对这些都不感兴趣， 因为我真的爱自己所做的事。 对我所做的事的热爱会排除其他的一切。 这份热爱就是最高形式的杰出。
29:51 A: Yes, it just occurs to me that it’s a loving thing to see you loving. Yes, yes, I do understand. 安：是的，这也曾经发生在我身上， 看到某人热爱某事本身就是很可爱的。 是的，我理解。
30:01 K: And if the educator can convey this feeling, not to the three hundred students but to the ten who he feels can do something, they will excel without competing, without saying I must beat the record. Love makes one tremendously efficient. 克：如果教育者能传达这种感觉， 不是对三百名学生， 而是对十名，他觉得可以改变的学生， 他们就可以不需要竞争就变得杰出， 不需要说我必须打破记录。 爱会创造巨大的效率和能力。
30:29 A: I think a good deal of the objection that students make to grades – those who don’t like to receive grades, is based largely upon this notion of a personal comparison between themselves and another. Now there are other objections to grades that seem to me without any foundation. But there is a psychological point here: if the grade is used as a sledge-hammer, then, of course, it becomes altogether dysfunctional and destructive. Still I would not go so far as to say that grades as such are useless, since if the teacher relates to them adequately, he is telling something to the student about the student’s own performance with respect to a given task. 安：我认为反对给不愿意接受 评级的学生评级，是一个 好主意，评级就是一种个人的比较， 比较他们自身和其他人。 现在也有其他一些反对评级的声音， 对我来说似乎没有基础。 但是，存在一个心理学的问题， 如果评级被用来作为一个大锤， 那么，显然， 评级就会变得 具有破坏性。 当然我也不会说 评级是一无是处的， 如果老师能恰当的 告诉学生， 学生在某个特定测试中的表现。
31:29 K: Yes, I understand that. But you as a teacher had five or ten students, in the real sense, you would help one of those ten to love the thing he’s doing whatever it is – gardening or whatever – and there is no grade in that. The more I learn the more I love. I don’t say, well, you must have a grade in your mind about me: you watch me. You say well that’s not quite right, this is right, let’s talk it over. You follow? There is that relationship in which all sense of making me conform to your ideal disappears. Therefore there is a relationship of real affection, and that is enough. It’s like sunshine and a flower. 克：是的，我理解。 但是在现实中，你作为一个老师，有五或十个学生， 你要帮助其中的一个去爱他们在做的事， 不管是什么，做园艺等等， 这其中不存在评级。 我学的越多，我就越热爱。 我不会说，“好吧，你头脑里必须给我打分。” 你只是看着我。 你会说，“这样很好，这样不好，让我们讨论一下。” 你明白吗？这样就存在一种关系， 其中不存在任何你让我遵循你的模式的想法， （这类想法）全都消失了。 因此存在真正基于热爱的关系， 这就足够了。 就像阳光和鲜花。
32:36 A: Isn’t it the case that a person could, indeed, love flowers, love his garden, love gardening, as a appreciator but might not be gifted as a grower? 安：会不会存在这种情况，一个人可能热爱鲜花， 热爱他的花园，热爱园艺， 作为一个欣赏者， 但是他却没有栽培的天赋？
32:50 K: Then I study, then I would find out. You may not have the green thumb, and you say, ‘Well, I’ll find out’. 克：那我就去学习，我会搞明白。 你也许没有天赋，那你会说，“好，让我搞明白。”
33:06 A: He turns around and he says after he’s planted this flower, ‘Well how am I doing?’ And he means to ask you whether he has done well, or ill, in the way he has planted this flower. 安：他四处寻找，在他种下植物之后， 他会问你，“我做的如何？ 就种花而言， 我做的是好是坏？“
33:22 K: Therefore, the way you tell him how he has done, that is important – not better grades or this or that. The way you convey to me that what I’ve done isn’t quite right, or it’s quite right, that it is done marvellously – your very look is sufficient. That means you have to be extraordinarily sensitive. 克：因此，你就告诉他他做的如何， 这才是重要的，不是评级高低等等。 你会告诉我，”这个做的不好， 那个做的很好，这个做的特别好。“ 你的观察是充足的。 这意味着你极其敏感。
33:50 A: Yes, yes, I know how very true that is. Because oftentimes one has the feeling that a student who might not be too gifted, nonetheless does have a capacity which still stands to be reached and actuated. 安：是的是的，我知道确实如此。 因为一个人经常会觉得， 一个学生也许没有很高的天赋， 也没有很大的能力， 但是仍然坚持要到达某种地步。
34:19 K: Yes, sir, but you see the difficulty? All religions are based on this comparison: eventually reach the foot of God or sit next to God. There are all the priestly, hierarchical methods: the priest, the bishop, the archbishop, the cardinal. This whole hierarchical sense is a competitive sense. And religion, business, family, the whole structure is based on that. And you bring up a child to fit into that. Whereas if you say, ‘Look, you’re my child, I’m going to look after you, I’m going to see that you are the most marvelous human being on earth’ – totally, not just technologically, but psychologically, spiritually, – you know. And you produce quite a different entity. 克：是的，先生。你看到困难所在了吗？ 所有的宗教都是基于比较： 最终到达上帝的脚边或者坐在上帝身旁。 所有宗教等级体系： 牧师，主教，大主教，红衣主教。 这整个阶级等级体系就是基于比较。 所有的宗教，事业，家庭， 这整个结构都是基于比较。 然后你就培养孩子来适应这个结构。 然而，如果你说，”看，你是我的孩子， 我会照顾你， 看着你， 你是地球上最了不起的人类， 在根本意义上，不只是技术上，还有心理，精神上， 你知道的。“ 这样你就造就了完全不同的个体。
35:35 A: Do you think perhaps this notion of hierarchy has been badly applied, because we tend to believe that hierarchy is static rather than functional? 安：你是否觉得我们滥用了等级体系这个概念， 是否因为我们倾向于相信， 等级体系是静态的，而非功能性的？
35:51 K: Functional, yes. It is functional, but don’t bring status into it. 克：功能性的，是的，他是功能性的，但是不要引入地位的概念。
35:57 A: The parent, this teacher who loves his family of students, is still the parent. And in that sense a ‘functional hierarchy’ persists – would that be natural? 安：就父母而言，那些把学生看作家人的老师， 也是父母。 在这个意义上等级体系就是功能性的， 这是自然的吗？
36:16 K: Yes, but after all, you may be a first-class engineer and I may be a cook. But see what takes place. You are a top engineer and I’m a top cook. 克：是的，但是， 你也许是一流的工程师，我也许是一名厨师。 但是看看发生了什么， 你是一流的工程师，而我是一流的厨师。
36:31 A: Yes, yes. Well, that’s what I meant by functional. 安：是的是的，这就是我所谓的功能性。
36:33 K: Don’t let’s introduce status into it. You the Cadillac and I the Jeep! 克：但是不要引入地位的概念。 你是凯迪拉克，我是吉普！
36:44 A: I quite follow. 安：我明白。
36:45 K: So that brings up really quite a different thing, which is: is there psychologically progress at all? Because that’s what is behind this – that psychologically, inwardly, you will grow; better and better. Which is self-improvement. All that’s implied in it. After all, that is the basis of so-called religious hierarchy – you are gradually getting nearer and nearer God. The whole Brahmanical system is based on that. The lowest born will gradually evolve until he becomes a Brahmin, then he’ll go on gradually. And whether there is such a thing as a permanent entity in you which gradually evolves. Or this whole thing is totally wrong. 克：这引出了一件完全不同的事，就是： 存在心理上的进步吗？ 因为这就是背后的观念， 在心理上，内在层面，你会进步， 变得越来越好。 也就是自我提升。 这就是其中暗含的东西。 这也是所谓宗教等级体系的基础， 你会逐渐的，越来越靠近上帝。 整个婆罗门教的体系就是基于这个， 最底层的什么会逐渐进化，直到他变成婆罗门， 这是一个渐进的过程。 所以在"你"之中是否存在这样一个 可以不断进化的永恒的实体？ 或者这整件事就是错误的。
38:11 A: It’s a very difficult thing in our culture to get across the notion that there is no such thing as ‘essential progress’. 安：对我们的文化来说超越这些概念是很困难的， 不存在所谓根本上的进步这回事。
38:19 K: One can see it oneself. It doesn’t exist! 克：一个人可以自己看出这一点，（内在进步）根本就不存在。
38:26 K: Oh, what people say, that’s irrelevant. But say for instance, if there is sorrow, is it to be gradually wiped out, or is it to be wiped out instantly? 克：哦，别人说了什么并不重要。 但是比如，存在悲伤， 悲伤会被逐渐扫除吗？ 还是需要立刻，瞬间结束？
38:44 A: I understand. Would you mind if I asked you a question about meditation, since you’ve brought this question of sorrow back. Meditation in the last ten years especially, has had a rather remarkable press. As we know. 安：我理解。 你会介意我们一个关于冥想的问题吗？ 虽然你回到悲伤的问题了。 冥想在过去十年， 变得非常出名，你知道的。
39:07 K: Yes, brought over from the East mostly. 克：是的，主要来自东方。
39:09 A: Yes. I’m concerned to know, for instance, how I might reply to a student if a student said to me, ‘Well, what does Mr Krishnamurti mean when he uses the word ‘meditate’ – what should I... 安：是的，所以我想知道，例如， 如果有学生问我， 克里希那穆提所谓 的冥想是什么意思， 我该怎么说？
39:27 K: I’ll tell you, sir, it’s fairly simple, I think. As it is generally understood, meditation is an escape from life – they will deny this. 克：让我告诉你先生，这非常简单。 按照通常的理解， 冥想是一种对生活的逃避， 虽然他们会否定这种说法。
39:43 A: Oh, yes, vigorously.

K: Vigorously. But the fact is an avoidance, an escape, an overcoming life, the miseries of life, not working from below but imposing something. And in meditation is implied also that you must seek God; that you must experience – transcendental state you must get, through various practices. You know all that business. 		安：是的，非常努力的。

克：非常努力的（否定） 但是事实上，（所谓冥想）就是一种逃避， 克服生活的痛苦， 不是从下面着手，而是在上边施加一些东西。 冥想还意味着，你必须追求上帝； 你必须体验先验的状态， 通过各种练习。你知道这一切、
40:16 A: Something you progress towards.

K: Progress. That’s one thing. 		安：一种你可以不断追求的事。

克：进步。这是一方面。
40:22 A: That is the common notion. 安：这就是通常意义上的冥想。
40:23 K: Of course it is. And it’s so utterly false. You become my guru, who say, ‘Well, I’ve had transcendental experience’, whatever that may mean, and you form a system, and because of your beard and your reputation and circus round it, frills, all that, I say, ‘He’s right’ and I follow; I don't understand what's implied in all this, whether it’s a personal experience – if it is your personal experience, I don’t want your personal experience. It doesn’t mean a thing to me because you might be deceiving yourself. Obviously you are, when God is your personal experience. 克：是的，而这一切都非常虚假。 你是我的大师，你说， "我有过先验的经验。“ 不管那意味着什么， 你据此建立了一个体系， 然后获得了收入和名声， 还有各种各样的把戏， 我说，”你是对的，我会追随你。“ 我不明白这意味着什么， （你所谓的经验）是否是你的个人经验。如果是， 我不想要你的个人经验， 它对我毫无意义， 因为你可能只是在欺骗你自己。 你显然就在这么做，如果上帝成了你的个人经验。
41:13 A: It is really an amazing thing how many students these days have got it into their heads that there’s some external something that they can begin to do in order to achieve this end. I had a student, you know, who came to class and he wore a little bell, a little Tibetan bell, and the jolly thing of course would shake every time he moved in class, and it bothered a few other students. And I waited a few days; I thought maybe the novelty of it would wear off. And one day I walked up to him, put my arm around his shoulder and said, ‘You know, it might be that the bell is wearing you’. And he didn’t wear it anymore after that. He was capable though of grasping that point. He wasn’t offended, fortunately. But that’s very encouraging; he did grasp it immediately. Maybe we could say he saw, and the bell went. There wasn’t a gradual giving up the bell. Not wearing the bell three days and then two days, and then one day. Yes, I understand. 安：令人惊讶的是，如今有多少学生 认为存在一些外在的东西， 他们可以用来实现终极的目的。 我有一个学生，上课的时候 会戴着一个铃铛，西藏的铃铛， 这个有趣的小玩意会随着他走来走去而响个不停， 这打扰到了其他一些学生。 我等了几天， 我觉得也许那份新奇劲已经消失了。 有一天我走到他面前， 把手放在他肩膀上说， ”你知道，也许是那个铃铛在'戴着'你。” 然后他再也没有戴过那个铃铛。 他能够瞬间抓住那个想法。 幸运的是，他没有感到被冒犯。 这很激励人， 他一下子就抓住了我的想法。 也许我们可以说，“他看到了，然后铃铛就被摘下了。“ 这不是一个逐渐放弃铃铛的过程。 不是先戴铃铛三天，然后两天，再然后一天。 是的，我明白。
42:35 K: Then what is meditation?

A: Yes. What is it as such? 		克：因此，什么是冥想？

安：是的，什么是冥想？
42:39 K: Sir, that’s what I feel. One has to negate all the dictum, all the sanctions, all the things the human mind has invented about God, about meditation, as a means to reality. Negate all that, because it’s just a human invention. And all the rituals, all the ceremonies, all the paraphernalia that goes on in churches, it’s all put together by human minds. Therefore why should I accept a thing which human minds have put together? They are as deceived as I am. Therefore, meditation is to cleanse the mind of every form of deception. 克：先生，这就是我感受到的。 一个人要否定所有的权威和教条， 所有人类头脑制造的东西， 关于上帝，关于作为一种通向真实的方法的冥想。 否定所有这一切， 因为这些都是人类的发明。 所有的仪式，典礼， 所有的道具，教堂里发生的一切， 这些都是人类的头脑的创造。 因此为什么我要接受 这些由人类的头脑创造的东西？ 他们就像我一样被欺骗。 因此，冥想就是清空意识， 清空所有欺骗性的事物。
43:41 A: At that point then it would be correct to say, even if it’s only a partial statement, that it is a clinical activity. 安：从这个角度就可以说， 即使是部分的说， 这是一个临床的活动。
43:48 K: ‘Clinical’ in the sense, non-analytical. 克：“临床”（clinical）意味着不是分析式的。
43:53 A: Yes. 安：是的。
43:54 K: Because when you told that boy, student, ‘the bell is wearing you’, that’s not clinical. He saw it instantly. Whereas our minds are used to a clinical, analytical way of going at it. So meditation is this instant perception. And that requires a great sensitivity of the body. 克：因为当你告诉那个男孩，”是铃铛在’戴着‘你“的时候， 这不是临床的。他立刻看到了这一点。 然而我们的头脑习惯于临床的， 分析式的方法，去接近（问题）。 所以冥想就是立刻的洞察。 这需要身体的敏感度。
44:29 A: Yes, it does. 安：是的。
44:30 K: I mean, alcohol, meat, drink, you know, all that stuff has to be put aside. And you have to have a very clear mind, sensitive mind, to say about the bell, the boy saw it instantly, and therefore stopped it. So meditation is, in the real, deep sense of the word, non-clinical, non-analytical, but seeing things as they are in myself. What I am; self-knowing. And the conflict which the self creates, see the truth of that and end it. All that is part of meditation. And also having a really quiet mind, not cultivate a quiet mind. Because it’s only when the mind is quiet you see things clearly. If my mind is chattering, I can’t see the carpet so clearly. 克：我是说，酒精，肉食，各种饮料， 所有这些，都要被放到一边。 你需要有一个清晰的头脑， 敏感的头脑，才能谈论那个铃铛， 那个男孩才能立刻看到这一点，然后终止它。 所以，冥想，在真实的，深层的意义上讲， 不是临床的，也不是分析的， 而是看到事物本身的样子。 我本身如何，自我了解。 自我创造的冲突， 看到这一切的真相，然后结束它。 这一切都是冥想的一部分。 因此你需要一个真的安静的头脑， 不是培养出一个安静的头脑。 因为只有头脑安静的时候，你才能清晰的看到一件事。 如果我的头脑一直在喋喋不休，我就不能清晰的看到那个地毯。
45:51 A: Yes, you seem to suggest what we might metaphorically refer to as the tranquil lake that reflects perfectly the shore. 安：是的，你似乎在建议， 就像那个隐喻所说的， 就像平静的湖面可以清楚的反映出湖岸。
46:04 K: Yes, but there’s no reflection here. 克：是的，但是这里不存在反映。
46:10 A: No, that’s where the analogy breaks down. I meant the lake in the surely, wholly receptive sense. 安：不存在，这就是这个比喻失效的地方。 我都意思是湖显然处于全然接收的状态。
46:20 K: Wait, sir, let’s be careful in this word ‘receptive’ too. What is there to receive? Who is receiving? 克：等一下，先生，让我们小心”接收的”这个词。 是什么在接收？ 是谁在接收？
46:31 A: There is ‘what is’. 安：是当下之是。
46:33 K: So the mind, after establishing real order, and that real order can only be established when it has investigated disorder in itself. The investigation and understanding of that disorder brings order – not imposed order. 克：所以，当头脑建立起真正的秩序， 真正的秩序，只有在 无序被观察到时，才能建立。 对无序的观察和理解，带来了秩序， 不是强加的秩序。
46:59 A: That’s the miracle. 安：这就是奇迹所在。
47:01 K: Then that is established, then the mind, in the process of that the mind becomes very quiet, very still. Then, what is there to reflect? Or, that very stillness has its own momentum, its own energy, its own – activity, which cannot be put into words. The mind when it is quiet is not a dead mind. Is not a vegetating mind – it’s a mind very, very alert, very active, very alive, and highly intelligent, sensitive. Now, what takes place there in that state of stillness is a momentum of a totally different dimension. That’s why one has to be supremely careful not to deceive oneself from the beginning – you follow?

A: Yes, yes. 		克：然后当这（秩序）被建立， 在这个过程中，头脑变得非常非常安静，静止。 然后，是什么在反映？ 或者，是静止本身，具有自身的动力， 它自身的能量，它自身的活动， 这些无法被付诸语言。 安静的头脑，不是死掉的头脑， 也不是植物样的，（呆板的）头脑， 这样的头脑十分警觉，富有活力，富有生机， 充满智慧，非常敏感。 现在，当这种静止 存在时， 就有一种完全不同维度的动力。 这就是为什么一个人要十分小心，不要欺骗自己， 从一开始就要如此，你明白吗？

安：是的，是的。
48:21 K: And the whole function of the will has come to an end. 克：意志的全部活动都终止了。
48:30 A: Yes, I think that’s in our culture what we mean by having a quiet heart because we tend to associate heart and will. 安：是的，我认为，这就我们 文化中所谓的安静的心， 我们一般把心和意志联系起来。
48:39 K: Ah, no, no. 克：不不。
48:41 A: I don’t mean, we also talk about heart in terms of hearts and flowers. But the radical sense of heart is the seat of the faculties. 安：我不是那个意思，我们也会讨论心和花朵之类的。 但是“心”的最根本的意思是，能力的所在地。
48:51 K: You see, when you really go into this question of meditation, any conscious effort to meditate is not meditation. 克：你看，当你真的探究冥想的问题， （你会发现）任何有意识的努力去冥想，都不是冥想。
49:07 A: The conscious effort to mediate. 安：有意识的努力去冥想。
49:12 K: You know, practice. 克：你知道，各种练习。
49:13 A: ‘It’s six o’clock and I think I’ll meditate’. Yes, I understand what you mean. One ought to be always. 安：“现在六点了，该去冥想了。” 是的，我理解你的意思。 一个人必须一直做（冥想）。
49:26 K: Because you’re watching, you’re listening, you’re looking, you’re seeing what you’re feeling – you follow? There’s this momentum going on all the time, the movement. 克：因为你在看，在听，在观察， 你看到了你的感受，你明白吗？ 这种动力一直在运作，这种运动。
49:39 A: I think that’s why in our tradition we speak of beatitude, not as a state, but as an activity, when it’s understood correctly. Now, I know that most people think of it as a state, but strictly speaking that’s not what the teaching is in our culture, but that beatitude is an activity. 安：我认识这就是为何传统上，我们说至福， 不是一种状态，而是一种行动，如果我理解正确的话。 现在，我知道大部分人认为它是一种状态， 但是严格地说，这不是我们的文化教育我们的东西， 至福是一种行动。
50:03 K: Yes. You see, that brings in the question whether there is a reality which cannot be grasped by the mind. What is the relationship of the mind – mind being the intellect – apart from the heart, has it any relationship to reality? Or when the mind and the heart and the whole being is one, harmonious, then there is a relationship. But to try to find if there is a relationship with the intellect in the sense, analysis and all that, that has no relationship with the whole. It’s only when there is total harmony of the body, the heart, and the mind, then in that state there is a relationship with truth. So let’s forget truth, put aside God, all this, but see if one can establish a harmonious living. Then out of that comes – that is part of meditation – and out of that comes the most extraordinary things. 克：是的，你看，这带来了一个问题， 是否存在一种真实， 它不能被意识抓住。 意识， 聪明的意识， 不包括心， 和真相的关系是怎样的？ 或者当意识，心灵， 还有存在的整体，完全和谐的时候， 才存在（和真相）的关系。 要去发现智力， 意思是分析的能力等等， 和整体是否并没有联系。 只有存在完全的和谐， 身体，心灵，意识的完全和谐， 在那种状态中，才存在和真相的关系。 所以让我先忘掉真相，把上帝等等放到一边， 先看看一个人能否全然和谐的活着。 这样从这种（和谐）中，也就是冥想的一部分， 会产生最为非凡的事物。
51:55 A: A misapplication of the will, then, would corrupt this capacity. Yes, yes, I quite follow. The idea of meditation as something that is truly ongoing, is something that we ought to stress a great deal more. 安：意志的错误使用，会损坏这种能力。 是的是的，我理解。 冥想的概念是进行时， 这是我们必须强调的一点。
52:19 K: But you see, sir, I would say don’t meditate if you don’t know the right thing. 克：但是先生，你看， 我会说，如果你不知道什么是正确的事，就不要冥想。
52:28 A: Right. 安：是的。
52:30 K: Because all these gentlemen come over from the East and teach them meditation, 克：因为所有那些绅士从东方来， 教给他们冥想。
52:41 A: You’ve hooked up another freight car, another addition. Yes, yes. 安：你不过是在增加一些东西罢了。是的，是的。
52:49 K: That’s why self-knowing is so much more important than meditation. If in the understanding of yourself, not through analysis, clinically, but understand yourself, see exactly as you are; therefore give total attention to what you are, find out. You follow, sir? 克：这就是为何自我了解比冥想重要太多。 如果在理解自我的过程中， 不是通过分析，临床的方法，而是理解你自己， 如实的看到你的真实情况； 因此给予你是什么本身，完全的关注， 去弄清楚。你明白吗？先生。
53:13 A: Yes, that does effect a purgation. That’s what I meant by the word ‘clinical’ before, not clinical as a technique but in its effect it’s clinical in the sense that purgation has occurred, and now things... 安：是的，这确实有净化作用。 这就是之前我所谓的“临床的”方法， 不是作为一种技巧的“临床的”， 而是意味着 净化已经发生，而新的事物
53:30 K: After all wisdom is self-knowing. There is no wisdom in a book. The understanding of oneself totally is wisdom. And without that meditation means absolutely – it’s childish. 克：毕竟，智慧就是自我了解。书籍中并没有智慧。 对自我完全的理解，就是智慧。 如果没有这一点，冥想完全是幼稚的。
53:52 A: Do you think that we might go back at this point to relate love to what we’ve been saying. Earlier I seem to remember remarking that the Rig Veda has the Goddess Speech appearing among friends. We speak of philosophy etymologically as the love of wisdom and yet perhaps in the deeper sense it might be that one can’t do it except one loves and is among those who love. 安：你认为我们回到爱和 我们所讨论的东西的关系如何？ 之前我记得 《梨俱吠陀》中说‘朋友之间会出现女神的话语。’ 我们从哲学和词源的角度看， （这是）对智慧的爱， 也许在深层意思上一个人不能做到这一点， 除非一个人有爱，并且是在那些有爱的人之间。
54:31 K: No, after all, love of something is not love. 克：不不，毕竟爱某事某物，并不是爱。
54:40 A: Well, loving is going on.. 安：是的，爱是进行时
54:41 K: No, it is not, ‘I love God; I love truth’. When you say ‘I love truth’, then you don’t love. But with us love is greatly involved in pleasure. Without pleasure, we say, what is love? 克：不不，不存在“我爱上帝，我爱真理。” 当你说“我爱真理”时，你不是在爱。 但是对我们来说，爱主要意味着快感。 没有快感，我们会说，爱是什么？
55:11 A: ‘I have to fall in love in order to have more pleasure’. 安：我们陷入爱河，是为了获得更多快感。
55:14 K: A dozen things.

A: Yes, yes, I understand. 		克：还有一堆其他的事。

安：是的，是的，我明白。
55:20 K: You see that’s why this whole question of love, pleasure, suffering, death – we kind of, you know, shut our eyes to all that. We daren’t enquire about death, whether there is death. 克：你看这就是为什么 爱，快感，痛苦，死亡，这些全部的问题， 我们都要去了解。 我们不敢去探究死亡，是否存在死亡。
55:45 A: No, we paint the corpse so it will look like it’s alive. 安：不，我们给尸体化妆，让他看起来像是活的。
55:48 K: And it’s an appalling idea.

A: It is, grotesque. 		克：这是一个令人震惊的想法。

安：是的，怪诞的。
55:55 K: This requires really, to go into this question of death, love, living, requires a great deal of intelligence, love and affection, to look. 克：真正的 去探究死亡，爱，存在的问题， 需要巨大的 智慧，爱，热爱，还有看（的行为）。
56:17 A: Sir, I just happen to remember a very beautiful story that I think the Sufis tell about Jesus who walking with some persons, came upon the corpse of a dog and mortification had already set in and decay. And so the shock of the stench caused them to walk across the street. And Jesus didn’t, he stopped and looked, really looked at the dog. And when he caught up with them, they wanted to know how he could stand it. And he said he was looking at how beautiful the teeth were. That story has always meant a great deal to me 安：先生，我刚刚想到一个美丽的故事， 我认为这是苏菲派的故事，耶稣 一天和其他人走在路上， 遇到了一条狗的尸体， 尸体已经开始腐烂了。 所以臭味熏得 随行人赶紧穿过街道。 但是耶稣停下来， 看着那只狗。 当耶稣走到众人之间时， 众人想知道他为什么会停下。 耶稣说他在看那些漂亮的牙齿。 这个故事对我触动很大。
57:18 K: That’s what we were saying at the beginning. This quality of attention in which there is no division. Sir, you see, it does take place when the scientist is examining something. He’s examining through a microscope, he’s completely – you follow? There is no division as ‘me’, the professor, the great Nobel prize winner who is looking through the microscope – he is looking. And I think that quality of looking, if it can be conveyed to a student, which is to look, before he enters the class, at the whole world – you know, look everywhere, the trees, the birds, the ugliness, you know, look at everything, then when you come into the room you have looked and you carry on with that look. 克：这就是为何我们在开始时说。 关注的品质之中没有分裂。 先生，你看，这真的会发生， 当科学家在观察某物时， 他透过显微镜来观察，他在全然的观察，你懂吗？ 不存在分裂，所谓我，作为一个教授， 伟大的诺贝尔奖获得者，在通过显微镜观察， 他就是在观察。 我认为，这种看的品质， 如果能被传达给学生，就是去看， 在他进入教室之前，看这整个世界， 你知道的，看所有的一切， 树，鸟，丑陋的东西，你知道的，看所有事物， 然后当你走进教室， 你依旧在看，你继续看的过程。
58:22 A: Yes. This reminds me when I first took chemistry how in the classroom I was hearing all about the molecules and atoms and so forth, and there was a very beautiful tree outside. And I would wonder, looking at this tree, and the thing that disturbed me very much was somehow we weren’t getting the molecules and the tree together. 安：是的，这让我想起，当我第一次上化学课， 坐在教室里听老师 讲分子，原子，等等， 这时一颗漂亮的树在外边。 我看着那棵树， 让我很困惑的是， 我没有同时看到分子和树。
58:49 K: No. I would look at the tree completely! Give your whole attention to that tree. Then look at the molecules. So that there is no division between the tree and the molecules. You’ve given your attention to the tree, and you’ve given your whole attention to the molecules. You follow, sir? Then there is no conflict, there is no division. It is this division both inwardly and outwardly that creates such havoc in the world. 克：不，我会全然的看着那棵树！ 全然的关注到那棵树， 然后去看分子。 因此树和分子之间不存在分裂。 我把全然的关注给了树， 也把全然的关注给了分子。 你明白吗？先生。因此不存在冲突，也没有分裂。 正是内在和外在的分裂， 造成了这个世界上的灾难。