Krishnamurti Subtitles home


SD72CES1 - 良善只在自由中绽放
1972年2月17日 美国 圣地亚哥
和尤金·夏勒特第一次对话



0:02 Krishnamurti in Dialogue with Father Eugene Schallert. 克里希那穆提和神父 Eugene Schallert 的对话
0:07 J. Krishnamurti was born in South India and educated in England. For the past 40 years he has been speaking in the United States, Europe, India, Australia and other parts of the world. From the outset of his life's work he repudiated all connections with organised religions and ideologies and said that his only concern was to set man absolutely, unconditionally free. He is the author of many books, among them The Awakening of Intelligence, The Urgency of Change Freedom From the Known, and The Flight of the Eagle. In dialogue with Krishnamurti is the Rev. Eugene J. Schallert of the Society of Jesuits, the Director of the Center for Sociological Research at the University of San Francisco where Father Schallert is an Associate Professor of Sociology. 克里希那穆提，生于南印度，受教育于英国。 过去的四十年里，克里希那穆提在美国、 欧洲、印度、澳大利亚等世界各地进行了大量演讲。 在毕生事业的一开始，他就断绝了与 组织化的宗教和意识形态的一切关系 他说他唯一的关切是， 让全人类拥有 绝对的、无条件的自由。 他写了很多书，包括 《智慧的觉醒》、《转变的迫切性》、 《从已知中解脱》、《鹰之高翔》。 与克里希那穆提对话的是Eugene J. Schallert先生， 他是耶稣会的牧师 也是旧金山大学社会学研究中心的主任， 神父Schallert在那里担任社会学副教授。
1:02 S: I think we should perhaps start by exploring with each other the discovery of that which is most real in the world in which we live and how we learn to see that which is most real. Eugene Schallert（以下简称S）：我想我们可以先彼此探讨一下 去发现我们所生活于的这个世界中的最真实的东西， 我们要如何去认识它？
1:24 K: Sir, would you consider that to see very clearly the whole complex human problem not only politically, religiously, socially but also the inward morality, a sense of otherness – if we can use that word – mustn't one have total freedom? 克里希那穆提（以下简称K）：先生，你是否觉得， 为了能从整体上清楚地看到 人类全部的复杂问题， 不只是政治上的，宗教的，社会的问题， 还有内在的、道德的问题， 还有对‘那个事物’的感受——如果能这么说的话—— 我们是不是必须有彻底的自由？
2:06 S: Yes, I don't see how one can possibly explore anything of relevance to the world in which we live in the absence of a recognition or an awareness of his own inner freedom. To feel that we are limited, or constricted in our approach to social, economic, political, moral problems – particularly our religious problems – that we can't explore these from some other base than the real base which is the base of being free. S：是的，我们不可能去探索 任何与我们的世界相关的问题， 如果没有对内在自由的认识或感知。 在探索这些问题的过程中我们深受制约， 无论是社会问题、经济问题政治问题还是道德问题， 特别是宗教问题， 我们无法经由其他基础去探索这些问题 而只能从这个真正的基础——也就是自由——出发，去探索它们
2:43 K: But most religions and most cultures whether Asiatic, India or Europe and therefore America, they conditioned the mind a great deal. And you notice it, as one travels around, how, in each country, in each culture, they have taken tremendous pain to shape the mind. K：然而绝大多数宗教和文化， 无论是亚洲的、印度的、欧洲的还是美国的宗教和文化， 他们都深深地制约了意识。 如果你周游世界，你就会发现， 每个国家，每个文化， 都为了塑造意识承受了巨大的痛苦。
3:16 S: I suppose this is the function of culture, to shape the mind, – not very effective – but it is the function of culture to provide in a sense a buffer between the overwhelming dimensions of human existence, which then would transcend and encompass all existence, and which becomes an overwhelming experience for a person. Cultures do, in a sense, soften, or attempt to make culture manageable, or doable in some way or another. S：我想塑造意识就是文化的功能吧， ——虽然不是很有效——但这确实是文化的一大功能。 在人类存在的不同的压倒性的维度之间提供缓冲， 然后它就可以超越和囊括所有的人类存在， 它成为了人至关重要的经验。 文化在某种程度上就是要去软化，或者试着以某种方式去让文化易于控制， 或具有可行性。
3:47 K: Yes, but I was thinking really: when one considers how the world is divided politically, religiously, socially, morally, and especially in the religious field which should be the unifying factor of all cultures, there one sees how religions have separated man: the Catholic, the Protestant, the Hindu, the Muslim, and they're all saying, 'We're all seeking one thing.' K：是的，但是我在想，当一个人认识到 这个世界是如何变得四分五裂的，无论是政治、宗教、社会， 还是道德，特别是宗教， 它本应成为统一所有文化的因素， 然而我们能看到，宗教分裂了人类： 天主教、新教、印度教、穆斯林， 但他们都在说，‘我们在追寻同一个东西’。
4:28 S: Even within the framework of any given religion there is a great tendency for people to divide one subgroup against another subgroup and this seems to be indigenous to... S：即使在同一个宗教的架构中， 人们也有划分成小团体的强烈倾向， 不同小团体彼此对立这似乎是人类固有的
4:40 K: Therefore freedom is the negation of being conditioned by any culture, by any religious division or political division. K：所以自由是对制约 的否定，无论是文化的、 宗教分裂的、还是政治分裂的制约。
4:58 S: I would think that ultimate freedom is the negation of such a condition. The struggle for freedom is precisely the attempt to break through or undercut or get at that which underlies these various conditioning processes. The conditioning processes themselves go on in each human being, or in each flower, or in each animal and the task in the pursuit of freedom is precisely to break through to that which is ultimately the real. S：我认为彻底的自由是对这种制约的否定， 追求自由， 正是努力打破、去除 或者抵达这些制约活动的根基。 这些制约的活动， 发生在每个人身上，甚至每朵花朵，每个动物身上， 追求自由之路正是 去打破这一切，以找到那绝对真实之物。
5:34 K: I'm just wondering what we mean by conditioning. K：我想知道，我们所谓的制约是什么意思？
5:38 S: Conditioning in cultures, throughout history and across space is quite varied, as you know. Conditioning, for example, in the Western world of today, has been achieved primarily through the process of the enlightenment of rational-logical processes which I suppose are productive. Without rational processes we wouldn't have television cameras to talk on. The same time with television cameras we may not see anything. So I suspect that what we are dealing with, in our world, as a primary conditioning agency, is the whole world of the kinds of thoughts or categories or concepts or constructs – I call them fantasies – that people deal with and somehow they think are real. S：经过漫长的历史和空间， 文化通过各种各样的方式制约着人类。 例如，今天西方世界的制约 主要是靠 理性逻辑的启蒙运动过程而实现的， 我想它也是很有生产力的， 没有理性逻辑的过程，我们不可能 在电视摄像机前谈话，同时 即使有了电视摄像机，我们可能也看不见任何东西。 所以我怀疑，我们要处理的世界， 主要是一个受制约的中介，它其实是一个由各种 想法、概念、分类、构念构成的世界， 我认为它们是虚幻的， 人们在处理它们，并且多少有点认为它们是真实的。
6:31 K: Yes, sir, but don't these conditionings separate man? K：是的，先生。这一切制约难道没有分裂人类吗？
6:38 S: Unquestionably yes. They separate man both within himself S：毋庸置疑，他们分裂了人类。无论内在
6:41 K: …and outwardly.

S: Yes. 		K：还是外在。

S：是的。
6:44 K: So, if we are concerned with peace, with ending war, with living in a world in which this terrible violence, the separation, the brutality etc., is to end, it seems to me that it is the function of any serious religious man because I feel religion is the only factor that unifies man. K：所以，如果我们真的关心和平，关心如何结束战争， 关心如何结束这个世界上骇人的暴力、 分裂、残忍等等， 对我来说这是所有严肃的宗教人士的责任， 因为我认为，宗教是唯一能统一团结人类的因素。
7:20 S: Yes. S：是的。
7:21 K: Not politics, economics, etc. but the religious factor. And instead of bringing man together, religions have separated man. K：不是政治，经济等等的因素，而是宗教。 但是宗教没有带来统一， 它反而把人类分裂了。
7:37 S: I'm not sure that that's quite right. I think that religion has been defined by cultures as a unifying force between men. There's not an awful lot of evidence in history that it has ever achieved this particular function. This may also be a function of the limiting dimensions of any given religion, or the inability of religious people to transcend their own religious concepts or their own religious legends or myths or dogmas, whatever you want to call them. There is in fact a deeper base for unity. S：我不确定你说的对。我认为宗教 被文化定义为统一人类的力量， 然而历史上并没有太多的证据表明， 它曾经完成了这个特定的职责。 可能在有限的维度里， 这是某种宗教的职责，但这些宗教人士并不能 超越自己的宗教概念、 神话、传说和教条， 无论你叫它们什么。 但事实上有一种更深层的的统一的基础，
8:16 K: One can't get to the deeper unless one is free from the outer. My mind won't go very, very deeply unless there is a freedom from belief, from dogma. K：如果人不能从外围就拥有自由，他就不可能深入。 意识不可能深入， 除非拥有从信仰、教条中解脱的自由。
8:30 S: I think that's true in a sense. There must be within man a sense – consciousness, experience, something – a sense of his inner freedom before he can be appropriately religious, before he can allow religious categories as analytical categories, to have any meaning for him. Somehow he must be human and free before he can ever think of being religious. What has happened is just the opposite. S：从某种意义上说，我认为这是对的。一个人内在必须有一种感觉 ——意识、经验等等—— 有了内在的自由感之后，他才能成为一个恰如其分的宗教者， 他才能让宗教成为一类具有分析性的事物， 从而对他产生某种意义。 无论如何，他只有首先成为自由的人，才能考虑成为一个宗教者。 然而，世界上发生的一切正相反。
9:02 K: Yes, yes. Therefore we are saying, seeing what the world is now actually, not conceptually, but the actual fact of separation, wars, the terrible violence that is pervading the world right through, I feel it is the religious mind that can bring real unity to human beings. K：是的，是的。因此我们说， 我们要看到世界真实的样子，不是概念上的，而是分裂的事实， 战争、可怕的暴力遍布这个世界， 我认为只有宗教之心，才能真正 带来人类的统一。
9:31 S: I would say rather it's the human mind, or the seeing mind, that may be susceptible to some exhilaration, if you will, not in the sense of stimulus but some exhilaration relative to the phenomenon of being itself, that can bring people together or achieve an end to the conflicts... S：我想说，人类的心灵，或者在观察的心灵， 也许容易受到一些兴旺繁荣景象——如果你喜欢这么说的话——的影响 不是从刺激的意义上来说而是某种兴旺繁荣 的现象，这种现象本身 可以团结人类，或者结束冲突。
9:53 K: Could we approach it by asking what separates man ? What divides human beings? K：我们能通过问“什么分裂了人类”来处理这个问题吗？ 什么分裂了人类？
10:05 S: I think ultimately, man-ness.

K: Meanness? 		S：我认为在根本上是人性(man-ness)

K：卑鄙(meanness)？
10:08 S: Man-ness. S：人性(man-ness)
10:09 K: What do you mean by that, man-ness? K：你说的这个词是什么意识？man-ness
10:12 S: What I mean by that is our tendency to think about ourselves as men, or human, rather than as being, separates us from the world in which we live – from the tree, the flower, the sunset, the sea, the lake, the river, the animal, the bird, the fish, and each other, ultimately. S：我指的是我们倾向于把自身 当作人类或一个人，而不是一个存在， 这样我们就和我们所生活的这个世界分离了， ——和树、花朵、落日、大海、湖泊、河流、 动物、鸟儿、鱼儿，最终就是人类彼此间的分离。
10:34 K: That is, from each other.

S: Yes, ultimately from each other. 		K：是的，我们彼此间的分离。

S：是的，最终导致了人与人之间的分离。
10:37 K: From each other. And that is given strength by, or through, these separative religions. I want to get at something, sir, which is, is reality or truth to be approached through any particular religion or is it approachable or perceivable only when the organized religious belief and propaganda, dogma, and all conceptual way of living, completely goes? K：人类彼此的分裂被 宗教的分裂加强了。 我想探索下， 真相或者真理， 能通过任何特定的的宗教找到吗？ 或者只有当 组织化的宗教，包括各种信仰、宣传、教条， 诸多概念化的生活方式彻底结束后，我们才能看到真相？
11:27 S: I am not so sure it is appropriate to say that it should completely go for a lot of other reasons that are posterior to the phenomenon of being human in the first place, or being, simply, in the first place. If we're going to get at the question of truth, which is the question of understanding or seeing, we have to first of all get at the question of being, and the whole inner dynamics and evolutionary characters of being. If we can't get at that level, in the beginning, we really won't get at whatever value the 'teachings' of the various religions offer men. If those teachings are not relevant to existence, to being, to seeing, to understanding, to loving, or to an end of conflict, in the negative sense, then those teachings are really not relevant for man, they're unimportant. S：我不确定彻底结束这种说法是否恰当， 因为有很多其他的原因，它们导致了 ‘人类第一’的现象， 或者说‘存在才是首位’的现象。 如果我们想了解真理的问题， 也就是理解，或者看到的问题， 我们首先要了解存在的问题， 探究整个内在的动力，还有各种进化的因素， 如果我们无法在开始的时候就达到这个层次， 我们就很难得到任何有价值的东西， 每种宗教都提供了自己的教诲， 如果这些教诲无关人类的生存、 存在、理解、观察、爱， 或者从否定的角度终止冲突， 这些教诲就并不是和人类密切相关，他们就没有太大意义。
12:28 K: I agree. But the fact remains, sir, just look at it, the fact remains, if one is born a Hindu or a Muslim and he is conditioned by that, in that culture in that behavioural pattern, and conditioned by a series of beliefs, imposed, carefully cultivated by the various religious orders, sanctions, books, etc., and another is conditioned by Christianity, there is no meeting point, except conceptually. K：我同意。但是事实依旧如此，先生，先看到事实。 一切还会继续，如果一个人生来是印度教徒或者穆斯林， 他被身处的文化、 行为模式所制约， 被一系列信仰所制约，这些信仰是 各种宗教教团、制裁和书籍等等所强加和精心培养起来的， 而另一个人的背景是基督徒， 那么除了在概念上，他们不可能有交集，
13:15 S: Krishnaji, do you mean that in order for a man to be free, simply, he will have to rid himself of whatever religious – and particularly religious – but also political and cultural and social doctrines or dogmas or myths that he has associated with himself as a religious person? S：克里希那吉，你是说一个人如果想自由， 他就必须首先摆脱一切宗教的， 尤其是宗教的，还有政治上的，文化上的 社会上的各种教条和神话， 然后他才算是真的宗教者？
13:38 K: That's right. Because you see, after all, what is important in living is unity, harmony between human beings. That can only come about if there is harmony in each one. And that harmony is not possible if there is any form of division inside and outside – externally or internally. Externally, if there is political division geographical division, national division, obviously there must be conflict. And if there is inward division obviously it must breed a great conflict, which expresses itself in violence, brutality, aggressiveness, etc. So, human beings are brought up in this way. A Hindu, a Muslim are at each other all the time, or the Arab and the Jew, or the American, the Russian – you follow? – this outwardly. K：是的。毕竟你看， 生活中最重要的，就是一种统一感， 一种人与人之间的和谐。 而这一切只有在每个人都有这种和谐感时才有可能。 有分裂就不可能有和谐， 无论是内在还是外在的分裂。 外在，我们有政治的划分， 地理上的划分，国家的划分， 很显然，这一切必将导致冲突， 我们还有内在的分裂， 同样会导致巨大的冲突， 这种内在的冲突就表现为暴力、残忍、侵略性等等， 然而人类就是这样被养大的。 印度人、穆斯林一直彼此对立 阿拉伯人、犹太人、 美国人、俄国人，外在的冲突从未止息，你看到了吗？
14:49 S: I think what we are dealing with here is not so much the imposition of harmony on the human being from without or the imposition of disharmony on the human being. My hands are perfectly harmonious with each other, fingers move together and my eyes move with my hands. There may be conflict in my mind, or between my mind and my feelings, as insofar I have internalized certain concepts which then are in conflict. S：我想我们要讨论的，不是 人外在被强加的和谐 或者不和谐。 我的双手彼此之间很和谐，手指可以一起活动 我的眼睛和我的手配合也很和谐。 冲突存在意识中，或者意识和感觉之间， 因为我已经内化了一些会引发冲突的观念。
15:19 K: That's right. K：是的。
15:20 S: What I must discover if I am to be free is that there is in fact harmony within me. And If I am to be one with you I must discover from my hand 'Hand, tell me what it's like to be a part of something.' Because my hand is already harmoniously existing with my arm and with my body, and with you. But then my mind sets up these strange dualities. S：我想发现的是我能否自由， 以及事实上，是否我内在有着和谐。 而当我要和你融为一体时，我觉得要从“手”开始， ‘手啊，请告诉我成为整体的一部分是什么意思’， 因为我的手和我的手臂很和谐， 还有我的身体，和你也很和谐。 但这样我的意识就设立了奇怪的二元对立。
15:47 K: So, that's the problem, sir. Are these dualities created artificially, first of all – because you are a Protestant, I am a Catholic, or I am a communist and you are a capitalist – are they created artificially because each society has its own vested interest, each group has its own particular form of security? Or is the division created in oneself by the me and the not me? You understand what I mean?

S: I understand what you mean. 		K：是的，先生，这就是问题所在。 但首先，这些二元对立不是人为创造的吗？ 因为你是一个新教徒，我是一个天主教徒， 或者我是一个共产主义者，而你是一个资本家， 二元对立就这样被人为创造出来。 因为每个社会都有既得利益者， 每个小群体都有自身特定形式的安全感。 又或者分裂产生于我们内在， 因为存在我(me)和非我(not me)？

K：你明白吗？

S：我明白
16:39 K: The me is my ego, my selfishness, my ambitions, greed, envy and that excludes, separates you from entering into that field. K：我有我的自我、自私、野心、贪婪、嫉妒， 而这一切排斥和分离了你，让你无法进入那个领域中。
16:54 S: I think that really the more one is conscious of his selfishness, his greed, his ambition, or, on the other side of the fence, his security, or even his peace, in a superficial sense, the more unconscious he is of the inner self who is in fact already one with you – however much I may be unaware of that. S：我认为一个人越清楚他的自私， 他的贪婪、野心，或者与之相对的东西， 他的安全，甚至他表面意义上的和平， 他就越不清楚内在的自我，这个自我实际上 就是他自身的一部分——尽管他也许对此毫无觉察。
17:18 K: Wait, just a minute, sir, that becomes a dangerous thing. Because the Hindus have maintained, as most religions have, that in you there is harmony, there is God, there is reality. In you. And all that you have to do is peel off the layers of corruption, the layers of hypocrisy, the layers of stupidity, and gradually come to that point where you are established in harmony – because you've already got it. K：等等，先生，这是一种危险的观念。 因为印度教， 还有其他许多宗教都说，和谐存在于你的内在， 你的内在有神，有真理， 你需要做的只是剥离外在 去掉腐败，去掉虚情假意， 去掉愚蠢，然后慢慢的你就能接近那一点， 然后你就身处完全的和谐中了， 因为你已经得到了他。
17:56 S: The Hindus don't have a monopoly on that particular way of thinking. We Catholics have the same problem.

K: Same problem, of course. 		S：这不是印度教独有的想法， 我们天主教徒也有同样的问题。

K:是的，同样的问题。
18:05 S: We are confronted with a discovery with the discovery of seeing, of understanding, of loving, of trusting – all these primary sorts of words we're confronted with the discovering of these things. And peeling back layers, I don't think is the way of discovering them. Whether it be layers of corruption, of goodness or evil, whatever, that is not the way of discovering them. One does not abstract from or pretend away his sense of evil within himself in order to find himself. What is required is a penetrating, empathetic, open, free mind. S：我们需要去发现 观察、理解爱、信任， 当然这只是词语， 我们要发现这一切， 我不认为一步步地剥离是发现这一切的方法， 无论是剥除腐败、良善、邪恶等等， 都不是发现它们的方式。 一个人不能为了发现自我， 而从内心的罪恶感抽离出来，或假装摆脱了内心的罪恶感， 我们需要的是一个具有穿透力的，感同身受的，开放、自由的心灵。
18:47 K: Yes, sir, but how does one come to it? How does one, with all the mischief that one is brought up in or one lives in, is it possible to put all that aside without effort? Because the moment there is effort there is distortion. K：是的先生，但是我们要如何拥有这样的心灵，我们要如何 在我们被培养长大 和生活的过程中，有如此多的痛苦伤害 我们能否无需努力的摆脱这一切？ 因为有努力的地方就有扭曲。
19:14 S: I am sure that is true. Without effort, that is, activity, behaviour, too much conversation, but certainly not without the expenditure of enormous amounts of energy. S：确实如此。无需努力，也就是无需各种活动 行为，无需太多交谈，但毫无疑问 这并不是说就不花费那巨大的能量。
19:28 K: Ah! That energy can only come if there is no effort. K：啊！这种能量只有在全无努力时才能存在。
19:33 S: Precisely... S：没错
19:35 K: If there is no friction then you have abundance of energy! K：如果没有各种摩擦，你就会有巨大的能量！
19:40 S: Precisely. Friction destroys, it dissipates energy. S：没错，摩擦被消除了，是摩擦耗散了能量。
19:44 K: Friction exists when there is separation between what is right and what is wrong, between what is called evil and what's called good. If I am trying to be good then I create friction. So the problem is, really, how to have this abundance of energy which will come without any conflict? And one needs that tremendous energy to discover what truth is. K：只要有分裂就必然有摩擦， 对与错之间的摩擦， 所谓善良和所谓邪恶之间的摩擦。 如果我努力去变善良，那我就制造出了摩擦。 所以，问题是，如何拥有这巨大的能量？ 这份能量只有不存在冲突时才能出现。 一个人需要这巨大的能量来发现什么是真理。
20:23 S: Or goodness is. If we deal with goodness in the sense that you use it there – one tries to be good – we're dealing with codes, with law… S：或者发现良善。如果我们要讨论 你所说的良善——一个人努力去变得良善—— 我们就得去讨论相关的准则和法律
20:34 K: No, no, I don't mean that!

S: Moral goodness in some sense. 		K：不，不，我说的不是这种良善！

S：是道德上的良善吗？
20:37 K: Goodness only flowers in freedom. It doesn't flower within the law of any religious sanctions or any religious beliefs. K：良善只能绽放在自由之中。法律、 宗教制裁、信仰，不可能让他绽放。
20:46 S: Or political or economic. There's no question about this. Then if we're going to discover the inner meaning of freedom, and of goodness, and of being, we have to say to ourselves the reason we have not discovered this or one of the reasons why we have not discovered this is because we have within ourselves this strange tendency to start with the surface of things and never to end. We stop there, where we started. S：也包括政治或经济。这是毫无疑问的。 如果我们想发现自由真正的寓意， 良善，存在的真正寓意，我们必须告诉自己 我们为何没能发现这一切？ 哪怕只是一小部分原因， 我想是因为我们很奇怪地倾向于 从表面的事情着手，并且永远不去结束它。 我们停留在起点处。
21:19 K: Sir, could we come to this: suppose you and I know nothing, no religion...

S: We have no conception... 		K：先生，我们能否假设 你和我对这一切一无所知， 也没有任何宗教信仰……

S：我们没有任何观念
21:34 K: …no conceptual idea at all. I have no belief, no dogma, nothing! And I want to find out how to live rightly, how to be good – not how to be good – be good.

S: Be good. Yes, yes, yes. 		K：……完全没有任何抽象的观念。 没有信仰、教条，什么都没有！ 我只想知道，如何正确的生活，如何变得良善—— 不是变得良善——就是良善本身。

S：成为良善本身。对，对
21:57 K: To do that, I have to enquire, I have to observe. Right? I can only observe... observation is only possible when there is no division. K：为了实现这一切，我需要去询问、观察。对吗？ 我只能观察 而只有没有分裂时，观察才有可能。
22:16 S: Observation is that which eliminates the divisions. S：观察可以消除分裂。
22:18 K: Yes, when the mind is capable of observing without division then I perceive, then there is perception. K：是的，当意识可以没有分裂地观察时， 我就能真正看到，那时就会有洞察。
22:29 S: In any seeing that is more than conceptual or categorical seeing, or observing mental constructs, in any seeing that takes place, a truth is encountered. And being and truth and goodness are all the same thing. S：在任何不仅仅是概念或分类的观察中， 或者说在观察精神构造之中 当这样的观察存在时，我们就是遇到真理。 而真理、良善、存在，其实都是同一个东西。
22:47 K: Of course. K：当然。
22:48 S: So the question then is: why do I have to think about truth as though it were associated with the logical consistency of categories? Rather than think about truth as though it were associated with my being itself. If I have to always partialize my world – we spoke of the dualities – like we do or did in the Catholic religion, the duality of body and soul.

K: And devil, good and… 		S：所以问题是：为何我们认为真理 和逻辑一致性的分类相关？ 而不是认为真理只和我们 自身存在相关。 我总是偏袒某一方， ——我们谈论二元性——这是天主教世界广泛存在的， 身体与灵魂的二元性。

K：还有正义与邪恶的二元性
23:19 S: And good and evil incarnate in one form or another. If we have to always think that way then we shall never find… S：正义和邪恶以不同形式的化身登场。 如果我们陷在这样的思考模式中，我们永远也发现不了
23:25 K: Obviously.

S: …what it means to… 		K：当然

S：……什么是
23:27 K: …be good.

S: To be good, yes, yes, or to be truthful, or to be at all. I think this is the problem, and, as you suggested, there are so many centuries of cultural conditioning from all perspectives, that it is difficult. 		K：……良善

S：是良善本身，对，对， 或者真实本身，或者存在本身 我认为问题是，就如你所暗示的， 我们无数个世纪以来，深受这样的文化所制约， 无论从各种方面，所以这就是一个难点。
23:44 K: I mean, human beings are brought up in this dualistic way of living, obviously. K：我的意思是，人类就是以 这种二元对立的生活方式被培养长大的，这很显然。
23:50 S: Yes, and maybe we could do this better if we could not consider the obvious dualities of good and evil, of the sacred and the profane, of right and wrong, of truth and falsehood, none of these dualities but somehow come to grips with the duality that bedevils us the most: the duality of you and me, of man and woman. S：是的，但是也许我们可以暂时不管它， 不管这些二元对立，正义和邪恶， 神圣和亵渎， 对和错，真和假， 没有这些二元对立，我们也许能认识到一些 最让我们痛苦的二元对立： 就是你和我，男人和女人之间的对立。
24:22 K: Yes, duality of me and you. Now, what is the root of that? What is the source of this division as me and you, we and they, politically – you follow? K：是的，那这种你和我之间的二元性的根源是什么？ 什么造成了你和我之间的分裂？ 我们和他们，无论是政治上还是——你跟上了吗？
24:37 S: There cannot be any source of this in us because we are one, like the fingers of my hand are one. We aren't aware of it. S：我们身上并不存在造成这种分裂的原因，因为我们是一体的， 就像一只手上的五根手指，只是我们不自知。
24:44 K: Ah, wait. No. When you say 'We are one', that's an assumption. I don't know I am one. Actually, the division exists. Only when the division ceases, then I can say I don't have to say, 'I am one' ! There is a unity. K：不，等等。当你说“我们是一体的”， 这只是个假说，我并不知道我们是一体的。 事实上，确实存在一些分裂， 只有当所有这些分裂全部消失，我才能说 我都不用说 “我就是整体‘’！这才是真正的统一！
25:06 S: When you say, 'I am,' you are saying, 'I am one.' S：当你说“我是”的时候你就在说”我是一个整体“。
25:09 K: Ah, no!

S: Adding 'one' is redundant to 'I am' 		K：不不！

S：对“我是”来说，加上整体 (one) 这个词是多余的。
25:12 K: No, I want to go a little bit into this because there is only – as human beings live – there is me and you, my god and your god, my country and your country, my doctrine, you follow? This me and you, me and you. Now, the me is the conditioned entity. K：不，我想再深入一下这个问题。 存在的只有人类， 也就是你和我， 我的神、你的神，我的国家、你的国家我的教条、你的教条，你跟上了吗？ 这里有你和我， 而我是一个被制约的实体。
25:35 S: Yes. The me is the conditioned entity. S：是的，我是一个被制约的实体。
25:38 K: Let's go step by step. The me is the conditioning, the conditioned entity brought about, nurtured, through the culture, through society, through religion, through conceptual, ideological living. The me that is selfish, the me that gets angry, violent, me that says, 'I love you', 'I don't love' – all that is me. That me is the root of separation. K：让我们一步一步来，这个“我”是一种制约， 这个受制约的实体被 文化、社会、宗教 被概念化的，意识形态的生活所培养长大， 我是自私的， 我会生气，会暴力，会说‘我爱你’， ‘我不爱你’，——这一切都是我。 我就是分裂的根源。
26:10 S: Unquestionably. In fact, the very terminology you use betrays the substance of your idea. The word 'me' is an objective pronoun. Once I have made of myself something out there to look at, I shall never see anything which is real because I am not out there to look at. Once I make freedom something out there to pursue, then I shall never achieve freedom. Once I make freedom something out there that someone will give me then I shall never achieve freedom. S：毫无疑问。事实上你所使用的术语 违背了你思想的实质，“我”原本是一个客观的代词。 一旦我形成了“我”这个概念，并以此为出发点去观察， 我就不能看到任何真实的事物， 因为我没有在那里看 一旦我把自由当成某种需要去追求的东西 我就永远不可能拥有自由。 一旦我把自由当成某个别人能给予我的东西， 我也不可能拥有自由。
26:43 K: No, no. All authority, all that can be pushed aside. There is me and you. As long as this division exists there must be conflict between you and me. K：不可能，不可能。你可以把所有的权威都扔到一边去。 只有你和我，只要你和我之间存在分裂， 你我之间就必然有冲突。
26:54 S: Unquestionably. S：毫无疑问。
26:55 K: And there is not only conflict between you and me but there is conflict within me. K：不仅你我之间会有冲突， 我内在也会有冲突。
27:01 S: Once you have objectified yourself, there must be conflict within you. S：一旦你把“我”具体客观化，那你内在必然有冲突。
27:04 K: So, I want to find out whether this me can end, so that Me end! That's good enough to say. Not 'so that'. K：是的，所以我想知道， 自我能不能止息，那样的话 不！自我的止息就已足够。不需要“那样的话……”。
27:21 S: Yes, because there is obviously no 'so that' if the me ends. S：是的，显然，当自我止息，就没有“那样的话……”了。
27:26 K: Now, the me. Is it possible to completely empty the mind of the me? Not only at the conscious level but deep, at the deep unconscious roots of one's being. K：所以自我， 能彻底结束自己，清空意识的全部内容吗？ 不只是在意识层面，还要在更深层面， 在一个人存在的深层无意识的根源处。
27:47 S: I think it's not only possible but it's the price that we must pay for being, or being good, or being true or being at all, living. To live, the price we must pay is to rid ourselves of me, me-ness. S：我认为不只是可能，这是我们必须付出的代价， 为了良善，为了真实， 为了全然的存在，真正的活着，我们必须付出的代价就是 摆脱自我，摆脱那个“我”。
28:03 K: Is there a process, a system, a method, to end the me? K：有一种过程、方法、体系，能结束自我吗？
28:10 S: No, I don't think there is a process or a method. S：不，我觉得没有一种过程或方法能结束自我。
28:13 K: Therefore there is no process, it must be done instantly! Now, this we must be very clear, because all the religions have maintained processes. The whole evolutionary system, psychologically, is a process. If you say – and to me that is a reality – that it cannot possibly be a process, which means a matter of time, degree, gradualness, then there is only one problem, which is to end it instantly. K：因此没有过程，这一切必须即刻发生！ 我们对这一点必须十分清楚， 因为所有的宗教，都坚持要有一个过程， 心理上不断进化的系统，就是一个过程。 如果你说——对我来说就是事实—— 不存在过程， 也就是时间、程度、逐渐的，等等这些， 那就只有一个问题，就是立刻结束这一切。
28:56 S: Yes, to destroy the monster at one step. S：是的，一步就消灭恶魔。
28:59 K: Instantly!

S: Yes. Unquestionably that must be done. We must destroy me-ness. 		K：即刻！

S：没错。 毫无疑问，我们必须摧毁自我性(me-ness)。
29:07 K: No, destroy... I wouldn't use. The ending of the me, with all the accumulation, with all the experiences, what it has accumulated, consciously and unconsciously, can that whole content be thrown out? Not by effort, by me. If I say: 'By me I'll throw it out' it is still the me. K：不是摧毁……我不会用这个词，而是结束， 结束所有的积累，所有积累的经验， 意识层面和无意识层面积累的一切， 这一切能被完全抛弃吗？ 不是通过我的努力， 如果我说“我要抛弃这一切”，那仍然是“我”。
29:30 S: Yes. S：是的。
29:31 K: Or if I throw it out by exertion of will, it is still the me. The me remains. K：或者我通过意志的努力来抛弃它，这仍旧是“我”。 我依旧存在。
29:38 S: It is not – clearly in my mind, it is not an act, or an activity of the mind, nor an activity of the will, nor an activity of the feelings, nor an activity of the body, which will help me to see me – no, pardon me – will help me to see.

K: See, yes. 		S：所以我心里很清楚，它并不是一种行动， 意识的行动，也不是意志的行动， 也不是感情的行动或者身体的行动， 以此来帮助我看到我——不好意思，说错了—— 是帮助我去看。

K：是的，去看到。
29:59 S: And since we, in this world, are so wrapped up with doing, with having, with acting, we really don't understand reflectively and profoundly what takes place before we act or before we possess. And I think that it is incumbent upon us to reflect backwards and see that there is seeing before seeing takes place – in the two senses of the word seeing – just as there is loving before one becomes aware of loving, and certainly just as there is being before one becomes aware of being. S：因为我们在这个世界上被各种行动包围， 忙于去拥有什么，做些什么，我们其实并没有 去反思，去深刻地了解在我们行动之前发生了什么， 或者说我们拥有之前。 我想我们有必要 往后倒退去深思认识到在看到之前 就存在看到的状态， 当然这里的看到有两种不同的含义， 就像在一个人认识到自己在爱之前就存在爱， 所以在意识到某个事物存在之前 这个事物就已经存在了。
30:37 K: Yes, sir, but I… K：是的先生，但是
30:40 S: Is the question reflecting backwards deep, inwardly, deeply enough? S：它是不是关于“倒退回去反思”的问题 内在的，足够深刻地去反思？
30:45 K: Now just a minute, sir, that's the difficulty, because the me is at a conscious level and at the deeper levels of consciousness. Can the conscious mind examine the unconscious me and expose it? Or the content of consciousness is the me! K：等等，先生，这里比较难，因为我 是或深或浅的意识层面的东西。 意识的头脑能检查无意识的我，然后把它揭示出来吗？ 还是说意识的内容就是“我”！
31:18 S: No, the self transcends the content of consciousness. But the me may well be the content of consciousness. But the me is not the I, the me is not the self. S：不，自我能超越意识的内容。 但是“我”也可能是意识的内容。 但是我(me)不是我自己(I)，我(me)也不是自我(self)。
31:28 K: Wait, wait. I included in the me, the self, the ego, the whole conceptual ideation about myself, the higher self the lower self, the soul: all that is the content of my consciousness which makes the I, which makes the ego, which is the me. K：等等，“我”(I)包含在我(me)，自己(self)和自我(ego)之中， 包括了所有关于我自己的观念， 高级的自我(the higher self)、低级的自我(the lower self) 我的灵魂(soul)， 所有这一切就是意识的内容， 这一切组成了“我(I)”，组成了自我，它们就是我(me)。
31:54 S: It certainly makes the me, yes. I unquestionably agree with that, that it makes that objective self that I can examine and analyze and look at, compare, that I can be violent with others about. It's explanatory, if you will, or the summation of the whole thing which you put in the word 'me', is explanatory of a history of a whole multiplicity of present relationships but it's still not getting at the reality. S：确实，这一切组成了我，我毫无疑问地同意这一点， 即它们组成了那个客观的自我，这个“我”可以去检查、分析、 观察，比较，这个“我”可以对周围的人施加暴力。 它是不言自明的——如果你愿意这么说的话，或者说是这一切的总和， 你将它们放在了“我”这个字中，它解释了历史， 解释了全部的多样性，解释了当下的关系， 但是它还是没有达到真实(reality)。
32:23 K: No, the reality cannot be got at, or it cannot flower if the me is there. K：不，你无法达到真实或者让真实绽放 ——如果那个我还在那里的话。
32:32 S: Whenever, as I said before, whenever I insist upon viewing you as me, then the reality cannot flower and freedom will not be. S：就如我之前说过的，当我还是坚持 作为“我”来看你的话，真实就不可能绽放， 自由就不可能存在。
32:43 K: So, can the content of my consciousness, which is the me, which is my ego, myself, my ideations, my thoughts, my ambitions, my greeds – all that is the me – my nation, my desire for security, my desire for pleasure, my desire for sex, my desire to do this and to do that – all that is the content of my consciousness. As long as that content remains, there must be separation between you and me, between good and bad, and the whole division takes place. Now, we're saying, the emptying of that content is not a process of time. K：所以意识的内容，也就是我， 我的自我(ego)，我自己，我的观念，我的思想， 我的野心，我的贪婪，这一切都是我，还有我的国家， 我想要安全的欲望，想要快乐的欲望，性的欲望， 想做这个或者那个的欲望， 这一切都是意识的内容。 只要这些内容仍旧存在，分裂就必然存在， 你和我，好和坏， 整个分裂就产生了。 现在，我们说意识内容的清空， 不是一个时间的过程。
33:32 S: Nor is it subject to methodology. S：也没有任何方法可循。
33:34 K: Methodology. Then, what is one to do? Let's look at it a little, take time a little bit over this, because this is quite important because most people say: 'You must practice – you follow? – you must strive, you must make a tremendous effort, live disciplined, control, suppress'. K：方法。那么，我们该怎么做呢？ 让我们看看这个问题， 多花点时间，因为这很重要， 因为大多数人说：“你必须练习”——你明白吗？—— 你必须努力，拼命奋斗， 在生活中严守戒律、控制、压抑。
33:59 S: I am very familiar with all of that. S：我很熟悉这一切。
34:01 K: That's all out! K：抛弃这一切！
34:04 S: That has not been helpful. S：它们毫无帮助。
34:06 K: Not at all.

S: No, no. 		K：毫无帮助。

S：是的，是的。
34:08 K: So, how is the content to be emptied with one stroke, as it were? K：所以，如何可以就好像是一下子 便清空这些内容呢？
34:15 S: I would say – and maybe we could pursue this together – the content cannot be emptied by a negative action of repudiation of the content.

K: No, no. Obviously. 		S：我想说——也许我们可以一起来探究这件事—— 意识内容的清空，不能通过否定的行为、 通过否认这些内容来实现。

K：是的，是的，这很显然。
34:28 S: So that is a blind alley, we must not approach it that way. S：所以这是一个死胡同，我们不能以这种方式来处理这个问题。
34:32 K: Obviously. By denying it, you are putting it under the carpet. I mean, it is like locking it up. It is still there. K：很明显，否定只是把这一切藏到了地毯下， 我的意思是，那就像是把它锁了起来，其实它还在那里。
34:38 S: It's a pretence.

K: That's just it, sir. One has to see this. One has to be tremendously honest in this. Otherwise one plays tricks upon oneself, one deceives oneself. I see clearly, logically, that the me is the mischief in the world. 		S：这只是掩人耳目。

K：正是如此，先生。 一个人必须看到这一点，必须对此极度诚实， 否则就是在玩自欺欺人的把戏。 我在逻辑上很清楚地看到，‘我’就是这个世界的祸根。
35:03 S: Well, I don't see that so logically as simply intuitively. S：我还没有从逻辑上看到这一点，这看起来没有那么直观。
35:07 K: All right. K：好的。
35:09 S: It's not the result of a discursive act. S：那不是散漫的谈话的结果。
35:11 K: No, no.

S: It's not a dialectical… 		K：不是。

S：这也不是辩证分析的结果
35:12 K: No, of course not. Not analytical, dialectic – you see it. You see a selfish human being, whether it's politically high or low, you see human beings, selfish, and how destructive they are. Now the question is, can this content be emptied, so that the mind is really empty and active and therefore capable of perception? K：不，当然不是，这不是辨证、分析，你要直接看到。 你看到人类的自私，无论是政治上的大人物还是小人物的， 你能看到人类的自私， 他们的破坏性， 所以现在问题是，意识的内容能清空吗？ 由此心灵就能真正空无， 充满活力，从而拥有看的能力。
35:46 S: Probably the content cannot be simply emptied. I think that the content can be put in a perspective or can be seen for its inadequacy, or its inappropriateness, by a very energetic act of simply seeing. That's what I said in the beginning that so long as I look at the truths of any given religion, I am not finding truth itself. And the way I discover the relative value of the truths of any given religion is precisely by seeing truth itself, in itself, not as an object. S：也许意识的内容无法轻易地被清空。 我认为意识的内容需要放在某个视角中去看 去看到它的不足或不当， 通过简单的观察这种充满能量的行为去看到它 这就是我最开始说的， 只要我还在看任何宗教的真理， 我就不可能找到真理本身。而要发现 任何宗教给出的真理的相对性的价值 那就必须通过去看真理本身，看真理的本质，而不是把它作为一个客体去看。
36:26 K: No, I cannot, the mind cannot perceive truth if there is division. That I must stick to. K：不，我看不到，意识看不到真理，， 只要存在任何分裂。我必须坚守这一点。
36:35 S: Once you have division of any kind… S：只要存在任何分裂
36:37 K: That's finished. K：那就结束了。
36:39 S: …then you're in the categorical level, and then you will not see. S：……那样你就只是在分类，你看不到。
36:41 K: Therefore my question is whether the mind can empty its content. This is really – you follow? K：所以我的问题是，意识能否清空自己的内容？ 你明白吗？
36:51 S: I follow what you are saying and I think you are devising a new methodology. S：我明白你的话， 我认为你发明了一种新的方法。
36:55 K: Ah, no, no! I am not devising a methodology. I don't believe in methods. I think they are the most mechanical, destructive things. K：不，不！我不是在发明方法。 我不相信任何方法。 我认为任何方法都是机械的，有破坏性的。
37:05 S: But then, after having said that, then you come back and say but if the mind is to… if the self is really to see it must empty itself of content. Isn't this a method? S：但是在你说完这话以后，你又返回来，说 如果意识、自我真的要去看， 它就必须清空自己的内容，这不就是一种方法吗？
37:18 K: No, no.

S: But why, sir, is it not a method? 		K：不，不。

S：为什么呢？先生，这不就是一种方法吗？
37:20 K: I'll show you, sir. It is not a method because we said as long as there is division there must be conflict. That is so, politically, religiously. And we say, division exists because of the me. Me is the content of my consciousness. And that the emptying of the mind brings unity. I see this, not logically but as fact, not conceptually. I see this in the world taking place and I say, 'How absurd, how cruel all this is.' And the perception of that empties the mind. The very perceiving is the act of emptying. K：先生，我会解释给你听的。这不是一种方法，因为我们说了 只要有分裂，就会有冲突。 事情就是如此，无论是政治上的分裂，还是宗教上的分裂， 而我们说，分裂之所以存在，是因为那个“我”。 “我”就是我意识的内容， 而意识的清空会带来统一感。 我看到了这一点，不是逻辑上看到，是把它当成一个事实，而不是概念上的东西。 我看到这些事情在世界上发生着，于是我说， ‘多荒谬啊，这一切是多么残酷。‘ 这种看到便清空了意识。 这种看到的行为本身就清空了意识。
38:14 S: What you're suggesting is that the perception of the inappropriateness of the content of consciousness or of the me, the perception of the inadequacy of this or the truthlessness of the me is in itself the discovery of being. S：你的意思是，看到 意识内容或者“我”的不恰当之处， 观察到它的不足， 或者“我”的虚伪，这本身就是对存在的发现。
38:32 K: That's right. That's right.

S: I think we should pursue that. 		K：是的，是的。

S：我觉得我们应该再讨论下这一点。
38:35 K: We should. K：是的，我们应该再讨论下。
38:37 S: Because I wonder if the perception is in fact that negative or might in fact be very positive. That it's rather in the simple seeing of the being of things, – it wouldn't have to be me or you, in the objective sense, it could be this table or my hand – that I discover the inadequacy of the content of consciousness or of these objective sorts of things like me or you. So it may be a rather profound display of intellectual, or rather, personal energy that simply makes itself by reason of the display visible to me. It's dissipating and at the same time it's easy to deal with concepts – we've agreed on that – it's easy to create concepts. It's easier, I maintain, to see simply. S：因为我想，如果那种观察事实上是消极的， 或者它也许事实上是非常积极的。 它更是一种对于事物存在的简单纯粹的看到， 它并不需要有客观意义上的你我之分， 比如观察桌子，或者我的手， 我也能观察意识内容的不恰当之处， 或者一些像你和我一样的客观的事物。 所以这更像是一种深刻的 智性的展示，或者说是一种个人的能量， 只是为了让它自己经由理性的展示而让我可见 它会带来损耗，但同时，处理概念是很容易的 这一点我们已经达成了共识——即创造概念是容易的。 但我坚持认为，只是单纯地去看会更容易
39:39 K: Of course.

S: Prior to concepts. 		K：是的。

S：而且看到在产生概念之前。
39:41 K: Seeing.

S: Just simply seeing. 		K：当然了。

S：只是单纯地去看。
39:44 K: Sir, I cannot… There is no perception if that perception is through an image. K：先生 我不能……你不可能有观察 ——如果那个观察是透过某个形象而来的话。
39:54 S: There is no perception if the perception is through an image. I think that is very true. S：如果观察基于形象，就不会有观察。 我认为这千真万确。
39:59 K: Now, the mind has images. K：意识中有各种形象。
40:03 S: The mind is bedevilled with images. S：意识深受各种形象的困扰。
40:05 K: That's just it. It has images. I have an image of you and you have an image of me. These images are built through contact, through relationship, through your saying this, your hurting me, you know, it's built, it is there! Which is memory. The brain cells themselves are the residue of memory which is the image formation. Right? Now, the question then is: memory, which is knowledge, is necessary to function – technically, to walk home, or drive home, I need memory. Therefore memory has a place as knowledge. And knowledge as image has no place in relationship between human beings. K：没错，它有很多形象。我有关于你的形象， 你也有关于我的形象， 这些形象是通过接触和关系建立起来的， 通过你的言论，你对我的伤害， 我就建立了一个形象，它就在那里！它就是记忆。 脑细胞本身就是记忆的残渣， 也就是形象的形成过程，对吗？ 现在，问题是： 记忆，也就是知识，有其必要的功能—— 在技术领域，为了回家、开车，我需要记忆。 因此这种记忆作为知识，它有一席之地。 而在人与人关系中， 作为形象的知识没有价值。
41:15 S: I still think that we are avoiding the issue at hand. Because I think what you have said relative to the question of memory is, as you have suggested, terribly important but I don't think that memory, or the repudiation of memory by consciousness, or the repudiation of the content of consciousness is the solution of the problem. I think what we have to do is say how is it, Krishnaji, that you – I'm not talking methodology now – but I know that you have seen. How is it that you saw, or that you see? And don't tell me what you eliminated in order to describe to me how you see. S：我觉得我们还是在回避手头的问题， 因为我认为你说的，关于记忆的问题， 就像你说的，是十分重要的， 但我不认为记忆， 或者意识对记忆的否定， 或者对意识内容的否定， 是解决问题的方法。我认为我们需要做的是， 比方说，克里希那吉，你是如何—— 当然我不是在问方法——但是我知道你曾经看到过。 你是如何看到这一切，明白这一切的？ 不要通过告诉我你消除了什么， 来向我描述你是怎么看到的。
41:57 K: I'll tell you how I saw. You simply see! K：我现在就告诉你，直接去看！(You simply see!)
42:00 S: Yes, now, suppose you wanted to say to someone who had no such experience, 'You simply see'. Because I say the same thing myself all the time, 'Well, you simply see' and people say, 'You simply see, how?' And we must, if we are to be teachers, deal with this: 'Let me take you by the hand and I will show you how to see.' S：是的，但是假设你想要告诉某个人， 某个没有这种“直接去看”经验的人。 因为我自己也一直在说着同样的话， “噢，你直接去看就好” 别人就会问，“你是怎么直接去看的？“ 如果我们要当老师的话，我们就必须 这样来处理它：“我会手把手教你 告诉你如何去看“，
42:23 K: I'll show you. I think that's fairly simple. First of all, one has to see what the world is, see what is around you. See. Don't take sides. K：让我来告诉你吧。我认为这很简单。 首先，一个人要去看这个世界是什么样子的， 看看你周围发生了什么。 去看，不要偏袒任何一方。
42:42 S: Yes. I think our terminology may get in the way here. Suppose rather than say, 'One must start by seeing what the world is' we were able to start by saying, 'One must see the world.' Not concerned with natures or categories. S：是的，我认为我们所使用的措辞在这里也许会造成障碍。 假如我们不说，‘我们必须从观察这个世界的样子开始’ 而是在一开始就说，‘我们必须看这个世界’， 不要关心所看事物的性质和类别。
42:58 K: No, no. See the world.

S: Yes, no whats. 		K：不要管那一切，只是看世界。

S：是的。没有“看什么”的问题。
43:00 K: See the world.

S: See the world. 		K：看世界。

S：看世界。
43:02 K: Same thing – see the world.

S: Yes. 		K：是一回事，看到这个世界。

S：是的。
43:03 K: See the world as it is. Don't translate it in terms of your concepts. K：看到世界原本的样子， 不要按照你的思想去诠释它。
43:10 S: Now, again, could I say, 'See the world as it is is-ing?' S：我能说要看到世界此刻真实的样子吗？
43:15 K: Yes, put it… K：当然，你可以这样说
43:17 S: Does that help? I mean, we are trying to… S：这有帮助吗？我们尝试着
43:19 K: See the world as it is. You cannot see the world as it is if you interpret it in your terminology, in your categories, in your temperament, in your prejudices. See it as it is, violent, brutal, whatever it is.

S: Or good or beautiful. 		K：看到这个世界真实的样子。如果你用你的术语， 你的分类标准，性格，偏见来解释这个世界， 你就看不到它真实的样子。去看到它真实的样子， 暴力，残忍，等等。

S：也有善良和美丽
43:40 K: Whatever it is. Can you look at it that way? Which means can you look at a tree without the image of the tree – botanical and all the naming – just look at the tree? K：无论什么。你能够这样去看它吗？这意味着 你能看到那棵树，同时不带着一个树的形象—— 植物学的知识，某个名字——只是看着那棵树吗？
43:55 S: And once you have discovered – and it's not easy in our world to discover – the simple experience of seeing the tree without thinking tree-ness, or its nature, or, as you say, its botany and things of that kind, then what would you suggest is the next step in the pursuit of seeing? S：一旦你发现了——要在我们这个世界去发现 并非易事——那种简单的体验， 即看着一棵树，而不去想那棵树或者它的属性， 或者如你说的，它的植物学等等之类的知识， 那么你会建议看完以后的下一步是什么？
44:18 K: Then seeing myself as I am. K：然后就是如实看自己了。
44:24 S: Underneath the content of your consciousness. S：看到意识深层的东西。
44:26 K: Seeing all, not underneath. I haven't begun yet. I see what I am. Therefore self-knowing. There must be an observation of myself as I am, without saying: how terrible, how ugly, how beautiful, how sentimental. Just to be aware, of all the movement of myself conscious as well as unconscious. I begin with the tree. Not a process. I see that. And also I must see, this way, myself. The hypocrisy, the tricks I play – you follow? – the whole of that. Watchfulness, without any choice – just watch. Know myself. Knowing myself all the time. K：看到所有的东西，不只是深层的。我还没开始，我只是看自己的实际的模样。 也就是自我了解(self-knowing)。必须要有对自我的观察， 看到我的真相，不要说，多糟糕啊，多丑陋啊，或者多美啊， 多感伤啊，只是对自我的所有行动保持觉察， 意识层面的，无意识层面的。 从看一棵树开始。这不是一个过程，只是看到。 然后就这样看我自己。 我的伪善，我玩的把戏，——你理解了吗？——所有这些。 保持警觉，没有任何选择，——只是去看。 了解自我。每时每刻地了解自我。
45:24 S: But in a non-analytical fashion. S：不是分析自我。
45:27 K: Of course. But the mind is trained to be analytical. So I have to pursue that. Why am I analytical? Watch it. See the futility of it. It takes time, analysis, and you can never really analyze, by a professional or by yourself, so see the futility of it, the absurdity of it, the danger of it. So, what are you doing? You are seeing things as they are, actually what is taking place. K：当然。但是头脑被训练着去分析。 所以我要去追踪这一点，即为什么我要分析？ 去看它。看到分析的无用。 分析需要时间， 而你永远不可能依靠某个专业人士或自己去真正地分析， 所以要看到它的无用、荒谬、危险。 所以，你在做什么呢？ 你在如实看那些事物，看实际发生的事情。
46:07 S: My tendency would be to say that when we discuss this we may use these words like, 'Seeing the self in its fullness with all of its negative and positive polarities.' Seeing the self in its fullness and then realizing the futility of… analytically looking at certain dimensions of the self and then saying, 'But I still must see.' S：我倾向于认为，当我们讨论这一切时， 我们也许可以说‘去看到自我的全部内容， 看到它所有负面和正面的内容’。 看到自我的全部内容，然后意识到 从分析的角度去看自我的某个方面， 然后说，‘但是我仍旧必须要去看’这是没用的。
46:34 K: Of course. K：是的。
46:35 S: Because at this point I have not yet seen. Because all I have seen are the analytical categories I've used to take myself apart somehow or other, in little pieces. S：因为在这个阶段，我还没有看见。所有我看到的 是属于分析范畴的东西，我已经习惯于设法把自己分裂为 很多小碎片了。
46:44 K: That's why I said – can you look at the tree without the knowledge? K：这就是为什么我问，你能看着一棵树同时不抱有任何知识吗？
46:48 S: Without the prior conditioning.

K: Prior conditioning. Can you look? Can you look at a flower, and without any word? 		S：没有任何先于观察的制约。

K：是的。 你能够看吗？你能看着一朵花，同时不带任何语言文字吗？
46:59 S: I can see how one must be able to look at the self. I must be able to look at you, Krishnamurti, and not use the word 'Krishnamurti'. Otherwise I will not see you.

K: That's right. 		S：我能明白我们如何才能够去观察自我。 我必须要能够看到你，克里希那穆提， 但不使用‘克里希那穆提’这个名字。 否则我就看不到你。

K：是的。
47:13 S: This is true. Now, after I have learned, through thinking to say, 'I must see you and not even use the word', then... S：确实如此。 现在，我通过思考了解了这一切， 我说，‘我必须看着你，但不带任何语言文字’，然后
47:25 K: The word, the form, the image, the content of that image, and all the rest of it. K：语言、形式、形象、 形象的内容，等等其他的一切。
47:32 S: Yes. Whatever the word denotes, I must not use. S：是的，我绝不能使用任何带有指示性的语言。
47:34 K: Sir, that requires tremendous watchfulness. K：先生，这需要巨大的警觉。
47:38 S: Yes. It requires… S：是的。它需要
47:41 K: Watchfulness in the sense, not correction, not saying, 'I must, I must not' – watching. K：警觉的意思是，不去纠正它， 不要说‘我必须要怎样，我必须不能怎样’，——只是观察。
47:51 S: When you use the word 'watching' – and again because we are teaching, we must be careful of our words… S：当你使用‘观察’这个词，我想说 因为我们正在教导，所以必须对我们的用词小心一点
47:57 K: Being aware – doesn't matter what word you use. K：保持觉察——使用什么词并不重要。
48:01 S: Watching has the connotation of observation, and observation has the connotation of putting something out there to look at under a microscope, as a scientist would do. And I think this is what we don't want to teach. S：观察隐含着‘观看’的意思，而‘观看’ 暗示着将某个东西放在那儿， 然后在显微镜下去看它——就像科学家们所做的那样。 我想这并不是我们想要教导的东西。
48:13 K: No, of course, of course. K：当然不是，当然不是了。
48:15 S: So now, if you could use again, Krishnaji, the word 'watching'… S：所以现在，克里希那吉，如果你还要用‘观察’这个词的话
48:21 K: Instead of watching, being aware, choicelessly aware. K：不用‘观察’这个词，用‘觉察’吧，无选择的觉察 。
48:25 S: Choicelessly aware. Fine. All right. S：无选择的觉察。很好。
48:27 K: That's right.

S: This we must do. 		K：对。

S：这是我们必须做的。
48:29 K: Yes. Choicelessly aware of of this dualistic, analytical, conceptual way of living. Be aware of it. Don't correct it, don't say:'This is right' – be aware of it. And, sir, we are aware of this, so intensely, when there is a crisis. K：是的，无选择地觉察到 这种二元性的，分析式的，概念化的生活方式。 觉察这一切，不要去纠正它。 不要说‘这是对的’——只是觉察它。 先生，当有了危机，我们就会强烈地觉察到它。
49:04 S: We have another problem that precedes this one by an inch. I think the other problem is: what kinds of questions can I ask myself in order to be aware of you and not use the categories, or to be aware of the fact that, in being aware of you, I am using the categories and the stereotypes and all these other funny images that I use all the time. Is there some way in which I can address myself to you, using certain kinds of words, not ideas, words that don't relate to ideas at all, using certain kinds of words that don't relate to ideas, that somehow they will teach me – or teach you or whomsoever – that there is something more important, of more significance in you than your name, or your nature, or your content, your consciousness, or your good or your evil? What words would you use if you were to teach a young person, or an old person – we all have the problem – what words would you use in order to make it understandable in a non-rational or, better, in a pre-rational way that you are more than your name connotes? S：我想我们还有一个问题，它要稍微在这个问题之前一点。 我认为这个问题就是：我要问自己什么样的问题 才能觉察到你， 不是通过分类，或者说要觉察到那个事实， 也就是要觉察到你，我会使用分类， 模式化的形象，和所有其他那些可笑的形象， 我一直用这些东西来觉察。所以是否有某种方法， 让我可以使用某些话语来把我的意思传达给你， 不是一些概念，而是一些与概念无关的话语， 某种与概念无关的话语， 它们能够以某种方式教会我——或者教会你，或者无论谁—— 即你身上存在着某种 比你的名字，你的本质， 你的背景，你的意识，或者你的好坏更重要，更意义深远的东西？ 你会使用什么样的语言，来教导 一个年轻人或者老人呢——我们都有着这个问题—— 你会使用什么样的语言，以便人们理解它， 以一种非理性，或者说得更好听一点，以一种前理性的方式告诉人们 你不只是你名字所包含的东西？
50:25 K: I would use that word, I think: be choicelessly aware. K：我会使用这个词，我认为这个词就是：无选择的觉察。
50:30 S: Choiceless. S：无选择的。
50:31 K: To be choicelessly aware. Because to choose, as we do, is one of our great conflicts. K：无选择的觉察，因为选择对我们而言， 是一种巨大的冲突。
50:42 S: And we, for some strange reason, associate choice with freedom which is the antithesis of freedom. S：然而出于一些奇怪的原因，我们会把选择和自由联系在一起， 但实际上选择是自由的对立面，
50:48 K: It's absurd, of course!

S: It's absurd, yes. But now, so then to be freely aware. 		K：当然，这种想法很荒谬。

S：很荒谬，是的。 所以，要去自由地觉察。
50:55 K: Yes. Freely, choicelessly. K：是的，自由的，无选择的。
50:57 S: In the sense of choicelessness, freely aware. S：从无选择的角度讲，它是一种自由的觉察。
51:00 S: Now, suppose that someone would want to say 'But, sir, I don't understand completely what you mean by choicelessly aware, can you show me what you mean?' S：假设某个人对你说， ‘先生，我无法完全明白你说的 无选择的觉察是什么意思，你能告诉我是什么意思吗？’
51:13 K: I'll show you. First of all, choice implies duality. K：我会来告诉你的。首先， 选择意味着二元性。
51:23 S: Choice implies duality, yes. S：选择意味着二元性，是的。
51:25 K: But there is choice: I choose that carpet better than the other carpet. At that level choice must exist. But when there is an awareness of yourself, choice implies duality, choice implies effort. K：但选择的确存在着：我选择这块地毯， 而不是那块地毯。在这个层面上，选择必然存在。 但是当你觉察自我的时候， 选择就意味着二元性，意味着努力。
51:46 S: Choice implies a highly developed consciousness of limitation. S：选择意味着一种高度发展的局限意识。
51:51 K: Yes, yes. Choice implies also conformity. K：是的。选择还意味着遵从。
51:57 S: Choice implies conformity – cultural conditioning. S：选择意味着遵从——文化的制约。
52:01 K: Conformity. Conformity means imitation. K：遵从，遵从意味着模仿。
52:03 S: Yes. S：是的。
52:04 K: Imitation means more conflict, trying to live up to something. So there must be an understanding of that word, not only verbally but inwardly, the meaning of it, the significance of it. That is, I understand the full significance of choice, the entire choice. K：模仿意味着更多的冲突，因为你试图按照某个东西来行事。 所以我们必须要了解这个词， 不只是口头上，而是在内心里明白它的意思， 它的意义。也就是说，我理解了 选择、整个选择的全部意义。
52:26 S: May I attempt to translate this now? S：我能试着来诠释一下它吗？
52:28 K: Yes.

S: Would you say that choiceless awareness means that I am somehow or other conscious of your presence to the within of me and I don't need the choice? The choice is irrelevant, the choice is abstract, the choice has to do with the categories when I don't feel, having seen you, that I must choose you, or choose to like you, or choose to love you, that no choice is involved. Then would you say I have choiceless awareness of you? 		K：可以。

S：你是不是想说 无选择的觉察，意味着我以某种方式 在我内心意识感知到了你的存在， 但我不需要选择？选择是无关紧要的， 选择是抽象的，选择和分类相关， 当我没有感知到你，看到你时，我才必须去选择你， 或者选择去喜欢你，选择去爱你， 但实际上并不存在选择。 这样的话，你会说我已经无选择地觉察到你了吗？
53:02 K: Yes, but you see, sir, Is there in love, choice? I love. Is there choice? K：是的，但是你瞧，先生， 在爱之中，有选择吗？ 我去爱。这之中有选择吗？
53:17 S: There is no choice in love. S：在爱之中没有选择。
53:19 K: No, that's just it. Choice is a process of the intellect. I explain this as much as we can, discuss it, go into it, but I see the significance of it. Now, to be aware. What does that mean, to be aware? To be aware of things about you, outwardly, and also to be aware inwardly, what is happening, your motives. – to be aware, again choicelessly: watch, look, listen, so that you are watching without any movement of thought. The thought is the image, thought is the word. To watch without without thought coming and pushing you in any direction. Just to watch. K：没有选择，正是如此。选择是一个智性的过程， 我尽可能解释这一切，让我们来讨论它，探究它， 但我看到了这一切的重要性。 所以，去保持觉察。保持觉察是什么意思？ 觉察你周围的事物，外在的事物， 也觉察你内在的事物，你内在发生了什么，你的动机， 觉察这一切，同样也是无选择的觉察：去看，去观察，去聆听。 由此你就是没有任何思想活动地在看。 思想就是形象，思想就是语言。 观察，但没有 但没有思想的介入，从而将你推向某个方向。 只是去看。
54:19 S: I think you used a better word before, when you said… S：我认为你之前用的词比较好，你说的是
54:22 K: Aware.

S: To be aware. 		K：觉察 (aware)。

S：保持觉察。
54:24 K: Yes, sir.

S: Because it is an act of existence rather than an act of the mind or the feeling.

K: Of course, of course. 		K：是的。

S：因为觉察是 一种存在的行动，而非意识的行动， 也不是感觉的行动，

K：当然，当然了。
54:30 S: So then we have to… I have to somehow or other become eventually, and therefore be aware, in a pre-cognitive sense of your presence.

K: Be aware. That's right. 		S：所以我们必须要……我必须要以某种方式而 最终有所改变，从而能够以先于认知的方式，去觉察到 你的存在

K：保持觉察，正是这样。
54:43 S: And this antecedes choice.

K: Yes. 		S：这种觉察是在选择之前的。

K：是的。
54:45 S: And it makes choice unnecessary. S：这种觉察让选择变得无用了。
54:48 K: There is no choice – be aware. There is no choice. K：没有选择，只要觉察。并不存在选择。
54:50 S: Be aware. Choiceless awareness. S：只有觉察。无选择的觉察。
54:52 K: Now, from there, there is an awareness of the me. Awareness, how hypocritical – you know – the whole of the movement of the me and the you. K：现在，从那之中，便有了对‘我’的觉察。 觉察我的虚伪——你知道的—— 觉察你和我的全部的活动。
55:11 S: Sir, you're moving backwards now, we've already… S：先生，你现在又倒退回去了，这个我们已经
55:14 K: Purposely. I know. I moved so that we relate it to. So that there is this quality of mind that is free from the me and therefore no separation. I don't say, 'We are one' but we discover the unity as a living thing, not a conceptual thing, when there is this sense of choiceless attention. K：我知道，我是故意的。我倒退回去，这样我们便可以把它们联系起来。 由此意识便会具有这样一种品质：它摆脱了‘我’， 因此就没有了分裂，我不会去说‘我们是一体的’， 当我们有了这种无选择的关注，我们便可以发现那种统一感， 那种统一感将是鲜活的事物，而不是一个概念上的东西。
55:44 S: Yes. S：是的。