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SD72CES2 - 结束失序就是结束死亡
1972年2月17日 美国 圣地亚哥
和尤金·夏勒特第二次对话



0:03 Q: Krishnamurti in Dialogue with Father Eugene Schallert J. Krishnamurti was born in South India and educated in England. For the past 40 years he has been speaking in the United States, Europe, India, Australia and other parts of the world. From the outset of his life's work he repudiated all connections with organised religions and ideologies and said that his only concern was to set man absolutely, unconditionally free. He is the author of many books, among them The Awakening of Intelligence, The Urgency of Change, Freedom From the Known and The Flight of the Eagle. In dialogue with Krishnamurti is the Rev. Eugene J. Schallert of the Society of Jesuits, the Director of the Center for Sociological Research at the University of San Francisco where Father Schallert is an Associate Professor of Sociology. 克里希那穆提和神父 EugeneSchallert 的对话 克里希那穆提,生于南印度,受教育于英国。 过去的四十年里,克里希那穆提在美国、 欧洲、印度、澳大利亚等世界各地进行了大量演讲。 在毕生事业的一开始, 他就断绝了 与组织化的宗教和意识形态的一切关系 他说他唯一的关切是, 让全人类拥有绝对的、无条件的自由。 他写了很多书,包括 《智慧的觉醒》、《转变的迫切性》、 《从已知中解脱》、《鹰之高翔》。 与克里希那穆提对话的是Eugene J. Schallert先生, 他是耶稣会的牧师 也是旧金山大学社会学研究中心的主任, 神父Schallert在那里担任社会学副教授。
1:01 S: In order to achieve this seeing that we have been discussing, one must arrive at a state in which he is attentive and freely or choicelessly attentive to the other – perhaps we could use: he can give his undivided attention to the other. Eugene Schallert(以下简称S):为了达到我们之前讨论过的那种观察, 一个人必须达到一种关注留意的状态, 在其中他能自由地,或者无选择地注意到其他的事物 ——也许我们可以这么说:他可以一心一意地去关注另一个事物。
1:25 K: Yes, yes. 克里希那穆提(以下简称K):是的,没错。
1:26 S: And before we take the next step, could I say that we are really not looking for an answer to the question 'what is seeing?'. Are we not looking for seeing itself which is really not an answer? S:在我们更进一步之前,我能否说,我们其实 并没有在寻求关于‘那种观察是什么?’的答案? 我们是否正在寻求那种观察本身? 而那种观察本身并不是一个答案?
1:41 K: Is there an answer, sir, when there is real perception – actually what is – is there an answer? K:先生,会有答案吗? 当有了真正的觉察——觉察到事实—— 还会有一个答案吗?
1:52 S: Perception is not an answer. I must insist with you that perception is not an answer. S:觉察不是一个答案。 我必须要和你一起坚持认为觉察并不是一个答案。
1:59 K: But... there is perception of what is: what is in the world, what is in me – I am the world and the world is me. That perception, not a conceptual perception but actual perception, the world is me and I am the world. There's no division between me and the world. I am the world. There is perception. What takes place in that perception? That's what you're asking, sir? K:但是……我们觉察到了实际的状况: 世界是怎样的,我内在是怎样的——我就是这个世界,这个世界就是我。 这种觉察,不是概念上的觉察,而是实实在在的觉察。 世界就是我,我就是世界。 我和世界之间并没有分割。我就是世界。 这是一种觉察。 在这种觉察中发生了什么?这是你想问的吗?
2:37 S: I'm asking, yes, what takes place in that perception. It's difficult for us to use a word because, in a sense for so long we have taken each other, our dualities, our world, as a given, taken it for granted, and because of this predisposition to take things for granted, I think we have, in a sense made it impossible or difficult for us to simply perceive. But once we can control this and say we are really interested in is the simple perception that precedes all rational, logical knowledge, all of our biases and prejudices, and from which these biases do not come. Then we are ready to ask…

K: Or rather, wouldn't we put it there is no perception if there's a bias.
S:对,我想问在觉察中发生了什么? 我们很难去使用一个词语,因为从某种意义上说 因为只要我们还是把彼此,把我们的二元性,和我们的世界 当成一个既定的东西,当成是理所应当的东西,那么由于这种 把事物当成既定事实的倾向,那么从某种意义上来说,我认为我们 几乎不可能去,或者很难去纯粹地觉察。 然而一旦我们控制住这种倾向,并且说我们真正关心的是 那种先于所有理性、逻辑知识 以及我们所有成见和偏见的纯粹觉察,那么那些偏见就不会出现了。 那时我们就算是准备好了,可以去问……K:或者我们可以说 有偏见就没有觉察。
3:30 S: No perception if there's a bias. A bias is that which precisely makes perception impossible. It's when I do not want to perceive you... S:有偏见就没有觉察。 偏见让觉察变得不可能。 如果我不想去看你
3:39 K: Of course, I build a barrier.

S: I build a barrier.
K:当然了,我就制造了一个障碍。S:我制造了一个障碍。
3:42 K: Whether the barrier of religion, barrier of politics, barrier of whatever it is. K:无论是宗教的障碍还是政治的障碍, 无论什么障碍。
3:48 S: Now, if it is true that in the pursuit of seeing you… in the pursuit of the perception of you, what is needed within me is not me. S:现在。如果我想看到你 我想观察你, 我内在需要的是不是‘无我’。
4:05 K: Yes, that's right. K:是的,没错。
4:07 S: And what is needed within you is not you. Then when we speak of such things as perception, are we not in some way or another speaking of oneness or truth? S:而你内在需要的也是‘无我’。 所以当我们说到觉察这类东西时, 某种程度上,我们就是在说同一性或者真理?
4:18 K: I would not come to that yet. To me, it seems seeing the world is me and I am the world – or I am you and… I mean, seeing, psychologically, whether I'm a Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, we are the same – psychologically, inwardly, we are all in the state of confusion, battle, misery, sorrow, with appalling sense of loneliness, despair. That's the common ground of all humanity. There is that perception. Now, what takes place when there is that perception? K:我还没有讲到这一点。对我来说, 看到世界就是我,我就是世界——或者说我就是你 我是说在心理层面的看到,无论我是一个印度教徒、佛教徒, 还是基督教徒,从内在、心理上而言,我们都是一样的。 我们都同样困惑、争斗、痛苦、悲伤, 有着惊人的孤独感和绝望感。 这是所有人类的共性。 这就是一种觉察。 现在,我想问,这种觉察中到底发生了什么?
5:06 S: That is what we're trying to pursue and to explain – without explaining it. S:这就是我们想追踪的并且解释的 ——但不是通过解释它。
5:11 K: We're going to share together in this. There is perception of sorrow. Let's take that. My son, my brother, my father dies. What takes place, generally, is: I escape from it because I can't face this sense of tremendous danger of loneliness, of despair. So I escape – escape in ideology, in concepts, in a dozen ways. Now, to perceive the escape just to perceive, not check it, not control it, not say, 'I mustn't perceive', just to be aware, choicelessly again, aware that you're escaping. Then the escape stops. The momentum of escape is a wastage of energy. You've stopped that energy – not you have stopped – perception has ended the wastage, therefore you have more energy, there is more energy. Then, when there's no escape, you're faced with the fact of what is. That is: you have lost somebody! Death, loneliness, despair. That is exactly what is. There, again, a perception of what is. K:让我们一起来分享这一点, 我们觉察到了悲伤。就拿悲伤来说吧。 我的儿子、兄弟或者父亲死了。 通常来说,我都会逃避这个事实, 因为我无法面对这种 孤独、绝望所带来的巨大的危险感,所以我逃开了 ——逃到意识形态、概念等等多许多事物之中。 现在,去觉察到那种逃避, 只是去觉察,不要检查它,不要控制它, 不要说“我不能觉察”,只是去觉察,无选择地去觉察, 意识到你在逃避。然后逃避就结束了。 逃避的冲动是对能量的浪费。 你制止了那种能量——不是你制止了—— 觉察制止了那种浪费,因此你就有了更多的能量。 更多的能量, 当你不再逃避, 你就是在面对事实。 事实就是:你失去了某个人! 死亡、孤独、绝望。这就是实际的情况。 而此时你再次觉察这些事实。
7:04 S: I think I see the direction you are taking. What you want to say is that when I perceive that you are sorrowful – I don't perceive sorrow, it doesn't exist by itself – so when I perceive that you are sorrowful, what I perceive is that you have been separated, and this is a source of sorrow because now your father is dead and you are separated. And in perceiving that sorrow is associated with separation… S:我认为我看到你指出的方向了。 你想说的是,当我看到你在悲伤时 ——我并没有看到悲伤,因为悲伤本身不能独立存在—— 所以当我看到你在悲伤时,我看到的是 你被分离了,而这就是悲伤的根源, 因为你的父亲死了,所以你现在单独一人了。 你看到那种悲伤与分离有关
7:37 K: Not quite, sir.

S: Or am I not perceiving that joy is associated with…
K:不是很准确,先生。S:或者说我没有 看到与快乐相关的那个事物
7:42 K: No, sir, not yet, no. The fact is I have lost somebody. That's a fact – burned, gone. And it is something gone finally! You can't... And I feel tremendously lonely – that's a fact – lonely, without any sense of relationship without a sense of any security. I'm completely at the end. K:不是这样的,先生。事实是我失去了某个人。 这是个深入骨髓的现实,那个人走了。 某些东西终于消失了!你无法再 我感到非常孤独——这是个事实—— 孤独,失去联系的感觉, 没有任何安全感。 这就彻底结束了。
8:18 S: Many people speak of this as saying, 'I am empty now.' S:许多人会这样说“我现在空了。”
8:24 K: Yes, empty. And there is an awareness of this emptiness of this loneliness, of this despair. I say when you don't escape you conserve the energy. Now there is this conservation of energy when I'm facing the fear of my loneliness. I meet it. You're aware of it. There is an awareness of this fear of loneliness. K:是的,空了。然后就觉察这种空虚、 孤独、绝望。 如果你不去逃避,你就保存了能量。 能量可以保存下来,如果我能直面 孤独的恐惧。 我直面它,你觉察到了它。 觉察那种孤独的恐惧。
9:01 S: But now, how can you give your undivided attention to someone whom you have lost, simply and finally? S:但是,你如何把那完全的关注, 赋予那个你已经失去的人呢,单纯地、最终地去关注他呢?
9:13 K: I've lost him finally, but now we're examining the state of the mind that has lost. K:我终于失去了他。但现在我们在检视 那个失去这一切的意识的状态。
9:22 S: Yes, we're trying to understand… S:是的,我们在尝试去理解
9:25 K: …the mind that says, 'I've lost everything. I'm really in desperate sorrow.' Right? And there is fear. See that fear, don't run away, don't escape, don't try to smother it by courage and all the rest of it – see that fear be choicelessly aware of that fear. In that awareness fear disappears. It does disappear! Then you have now greater energy. K:那个说‘我失去了一切, 我极度悲伤’的意识。 对吗?存在恐惧。 就让我们看着那恐惧, 不要逃跑,不要逃避,不要试图抚平他, 通过勇气或者其他什么——只是看着那恐惧, 无选择地觉察到那恐惧。 在那种觉察中,恐惧消失了。它真的就消失了! 于是此刻,你有了更大的能量。
10:03 S: Yes, and we have all experienced that, how seeing fear disarms fear. S:是的,我们都经历过这些,直视恐惧便能够解除那种恐惧。
10:10 K: Next, what is there? Why is there sorrow? What is sorrow? Self-pity? K:接下来,还剩下什么呢?为什么会有悲伤? 悲伤是什么? 自怜吗?
10:20 S: When it's associated with anxiety or fear then we will have to call it self-pity. S:如果悲伤和焦虑或恐惧有关, 那我们就可以称之为自怜。
10:26 K: Self-pity. What does that mean, self-pity? You see that means: me is more important than the person who is dead. K:自怜。自怜是什么意思? 你看,自怜意味着: 我比那个死了的人重要。
10:35 S: And so you didn't give your undivided attention to that person. S:也就是说你没有给予那个人全心全意的关注。
10:38 K: I never loved that man! My child, I never loved that child. I never loved my wife or husband, sister. In this state of awareness there is the discovery that love never existed. K:我从没有爱过那个人!我的孩子,我从未爱过我的孩子。 我从未爱过我的妻子、丈夫或者姐妹。 在觉察之中,会有一种发现, 那就是爱从未存在过。
10:59 S: Or, in the discovery of of a sorrow which is associated with grief or with separation or with fear, there is the discovery that love has been horribly limited, if it existed at all. S:在发现 这种与悲痛、 分离、恐惧相关的悲伤的过程中, 我们看到爱被极度地制约了——如果真的存在爱的话。
11:14 K: I didn't have it! I couldn't have it! Love means something entirely different. So, now there is tremendous energy – you follow, sir? – no escape, no fear, no sense of self-pity, concern about myself, my anxiety... Out of this sense of sorrow there is this bubbling energy which is really love. K:我没有爱!我不可能有爱! 爱意味着一些完全不同的事。 所以,现在我有了惊人的能量——你跟上了吗?先生——没有逃避, 没有恐惧,没有自怜感,不再关心自己,关心我的焦虑 摆脱了悲伤感,就会迸发出能量, 也就是真正的爱。
11:48 S: Which is really love. So now we have discovered that when one gives his undivided attention to another… S:它是真正的爱。现在我们已经发现 当一个人给予另一个人完整的关注
11:56 K: No! I have not given my attention to the person who is dead, my father, my son, my brother. There has been attention to the state of my mind the mind which says, 'I suffer' ! K:不!我没有把注意力放在那个死去的人身上, 无论是我的父亲、儿子或是兄弟。 我只是注意到我意识的状态, 那个说‘我在受苦’的意识。
12:12 S: Yes, but we have been trying to examine what 'I suffer' means in the context of what choiceless attention means. S:是的。但是我们想检视‘我在受苦’的意思, 在无选择觉察所包含意思的背景下。
12:22 K: Yes. So I find love is... a total attention. K:是的。所以我发现爱是全然的关注。
12:32 S: Love is a total attention. S:爱是全然的关注。
12:34 K: Without any division. I think this is really important because you see, sir, for us, love is pleasure – sexual, other ways – love is pleasure, and love is fear, love is jealousy, love is possessiveness, domination, aggression – you follow? We use that word to cover up all this: love of God, love of man, love of country, and so on. All that is the love of my concern about myself. K:没有任何分裂。 我认为这真的很重要,因为 你看,先生,对我们来说,爱就是欢愉——性,或其他事物—— 爱就是欢愉、恐惧、嫉妒、 占有、掌控、侵略性——你跟上了吗? 我们所谓的爱包括了这一切: 对上帝的爱,对人类的爱,对国家的爱,等等。 所有这些爱,都是我对自己的关心。
13:14 S: Yes, all of that is self-love.

K: Obviously.
S:是的,这些都是在爱自己。K:显然如此。
13:16 S: But it's the me that is being loved not the self that is being loved. S:但爱的是那个‘我’,而不是‘自我’。
13:20 K: That's no love. That's a tremendous discovery. That requires great honesty to say, 'By Jove, I've never really loved anybody.' I pretended, I've exploited, I have adjusted myself to somebody but the fact that I've never known what it means to love. That's a tremendous honesty, sir, to say that I thought I loved and I never found it. Now I've come upon something which is real! Which is, I've watched what is and moved from there. There is an awareness of what is and that awareness moves – it is a living thing – it doesn't come to a conclusion. K:根本就没有爱。这是惊人的发现。 这需要极度的诚实,你才敢说, ‘天哪,我从未真正爱过任何人。’ 我会伪装,我剥削他人,我会调整自己去适应某人, 但事实就是我从不知道爱意味着什么。 这需要极度的诚实,先生, 我才会说我认为我爱过,但其实我从未发现爱。 这样我就发现了一些真实的东西! 也就是,我看到了事实,然后由此而去行动。 有一种对事实的觉察,这种觉察会有所行动 ——它是一个活生生的事物——它不会得出一个结论。
14:17 S: Now why is it that in our attempt to pursue the question of undivided attention, or choiceless attention, or simple seeing that we very naturally slipped into the question and it's not really logical, it's very naturally slipped into the question of simple loving, as opposed to fictitious or fraudulent loving or conditioned loving. There must be something about the loving and the seeing process which is so similar that we can slip from seeing to loving and really be discussing the same thing. And as we move well, move is not a good word

K: No, I understand, sir.
S:为什么当我们尝试去探寻 完整的关注,无选择的关注或者单纯的看的问题的时候, 我们会很自然地引出另外一个问题, 不是很符合逻辑,但是很自然地 引出纯粹的爱的问题,与之相对的就是 虚假、欺诈的爱或者局限的爱。 爱和看的过程 必然有相似之处,所以我们才会从看的问题引出爱的问题, 我们实际上在讨论同一件事。当我们去行动, 呃,行动不是个恰当的词。K:确实不是,我理解,先生。
15:09 S: as we become aware of… as we develop this undivided attention, this choiceless awareness… S:随着我们开始觉察,随着我们发展出 这种完整的关注,这种无选择的觉察。
15:17 K: If I may suggest, don't use the word – I humbly suggest – 'develop'. That means time. Sir, be aware! K:如果我能谦逊地建议,请不要用 ‘发展’这个词,它意味着时间。先生,觉察!
15:27 S: Be aware. We are struggling with words, because… S:觉察。我们费力寻找合适的词语,因为
15:30 K: Be aware of the carpet – the colour, the shape, the form, be aware of that. Don't say, 'I like, don't like, this is good' just be aware of it, and then, from that, grows the flame of awareness, if one can so call it. K:觉察那个地毯——它的颜色、形状、样式—— 觉察它。不要说,‘我喜欢,我不喜欢,它很好’。 只是觉察到它,然后从那之中, 就会升起觉察的火焰——如果我们能这样称呼它的话。
15:51 S: Haven't you said the same thing in different words by saying, 'Be aware of the other, of the carpet, of the tree, of the universe within which you live?' And then you translate into another level of perception and you say, 'Love the carpet, love the tree, love the universe.' And you don't feel that there's a difference between being aware or seeing undividedly and loving undividedly or unconditionally. S:你是不是在用不同的词语说着同样的事情? 通过说‘觉察他人,觉察地毯,觉察树 觉察这个你居住的宇宙’ 然后你又把它翻译成另一个层次的感知, 你说,‘爱地毯,爱树,爱这个宇宙。’ 你并不会觉得觉察 或完整的看与完整或无制约的爱之间有什么差别。
16:23 K: No, sir, when you are so aware, there is that quality of love. You don't have to say 'be or not be' – it is there. It is like a perfume in a flower – it is there! K:不,先生,当你高度觉知时,你就具备了爱的品质。 你不必说“是或者不是”——它就在那儿。 它就像鲜花的芬芳——它就在那儿。
16:33 S: The two are… they're not different sides of the same coin. They're the same coin.

K: It is the same thing, same coin.
S:这二者……他们并不是同一个硬币的两面。 他们就是同一个硬币。K:他们就是同一件事,同一个硬币。
16:39 S: With no sides at all. Yes. So that then to see in this undivided way, choiceless way, and to love in this choiceless way must be one and the same thing. S:根本就没有不同的面。是的。所以,这种完整的看, 无选择的看和无选择的爱, 它们必然是一体的,是同一回事。
16:52 K: It is, sir, but the difficulty is we are so eager to get this thing that we lose the real thread of it, the beauty of it. K:是的,先生,但是困难之处在于, 我们是如此急切地想得到这一切, 反而失去了它真正的线索和美丽。
17:06 S: Now suppose that we were to move our discussion one more step or maybe another step because there's not more, and say that as far as we can perceive, to be aware and to love are one and the same thing. Could we move one step further and say to be is the same as to see and to love? S:现在假设我们要让讨论更进一步, 或者说展开新的一步,因为我们说过不存在更多, 就我们目前的观察,觉察和爱是 同一件事。 我们能更进一步说 ‘成为’和看以及爱是同一件事吗?
17:33 K: No, what do you mean by, if I may ask, the word 'to be'? Everybody says, 'I am.' The whole young generation at present says 'I want to be'. What does that mean? K:不,如果我能问一下你说的‘成为’是什么意思? 每个人都会说‘我就是……’。现在年轻的一代都这么说, “我想成为……”这是什么意思?
17:46 S: I'm sure it means very little. I think it means be active or be possessive. S:我确定它的意义很有限。 我认为这意味着保持活力或者占有。
17:52 K: Yes, be possessive, be angry, be violent. I am – that is what I am. K:是的,占有、愤怒、暴力。 我就是——我就是这样。
17:56 S: So then the word 'to be' has a connotation about it, associated with activity, which can only follow from this inner energy which is what to be means. S:所以‘成为’这个词有类似的隐含意义, 它和行动有关,那种只受内在能量引导的行动, 这就是‘成为’的含义。
18:05 K: So, sir, all this brings us to a question: whether man can change at all. That is the fundamental… It seems to me that's one of the major questions in the present world. The structure and the nature of human beings have to change. K:所以,先生,这一切都引向了这样一个问题: 人类能否从根本上改变 对我来说,这是当今最重要的问题之一。 人类的结构和本性需要改变。
18:30 S: Well, when you use words like 'structure' and 'nature' those mean categories to me.

K: No, the way he lives.
S:当你用“结构”、“本性”这些词的时候, 他们对我意味着‘分类’。K:不,这是他们的生活方式。
18:37 S: Can man's lifestyle change? S:人类的生活方式能改变吗?
18:39 K: Yes. The way he lives, the appalling pettiness, the ugliness the violence, you know, what is going on. K:是的,人类的生活方式,那些惊人的琐碎、丑陋、 暴力,你知道的,那些正在发生的事。
18:48 S: I would say that there should be nothing but despair relative to the question of change, if the change we're dealing with was the creation of new categories to replace old categories. S:我会说只有绝望, 它和改变这个问题有关, 如果我们在探讨的改变 是指创造一种新的‘分类’来代替老的。
19:01 K: No, no, I don't mean that. K:不,不,我不是这个意思。
19:03 S: If on the other hand we were dealing with the question of changing from the without to the within – can men do this? – from the 'to do' to the 'to be', from the pretence of love to love, from the perception of categories to seeing, can men change in that direction? I would have to ask – do men? And they do! You have done it. I have done it. S:如果另一方面我们在处理 从外在到内在的改变的问题——人类能做到吗?—— 从‘做什么’到‘成为什么’,从假装爱到真的爱, 从看某一类别到只是去看, 人类能从这个方向上去改变吗? 我想问——人类能做到吗? 他能做到!你已经做到了。我也做到了。
19:25 K: Sir, I mean… K:先生,我的意思是
19:27 S: Will men do it? S:人类能做到吗?
19:30 K: Because man has lived as he has lived, with such appalling brutality, such a deception, such lies, hypocrisy and all the rest of it. If I have a son, a brother, that's my concern, my responsibility. Not to change him but to see what it is. I don't want him to imitate me or conform to my pattern which is absurd, or my belief – I have none of that. So I say, 'Look, how is it possible for a human being to change?' Change not into a particular pattern, to bring about a total psychological revolution. K:因为人类已经这样生活了很久, 伴随着惊人的残忍、欺诈、 谎言、伪善,等等一切。 如果我有一个儿子或兄弟, 那我就有一份关心,一种责任, 不是去改变他,而是去看事实。 我不想他模仿我或者遵循我的模式, 这很荒谬,又或者接受我的信仰——当然我没有什么信仰。 所以我说,‘看一看,人类是否有改变的可能?’ 不是变成一种特定的模式, 而是带来一场彻底的心理上的革命。
20:26 S: If I were to start some place, Krishnaji, I believe I would start with you. Not because I think you need changing because I don't, nor because I think you would want to change but because I think you want to teach, you want to share. You have received so much joy from understanding and from loving that this radiates from within you. Now, if you wanted to teach someone that there's more to be seen than is seen – and the more is not quantitative but in depth – maybe I would want to change you in this direction that when you speak of the world and its conflict and its tensions, and its violence, and its hypocrisy, that you may also address yourself to another question – which I'm sure you have done but don't speak of it – not only the endurance of inner conflict or exterior conflict but the endurance of inner joy and exterior joy. S:如果我要从某处开始的话,克里希那吉,我想 我应该从你开始。不是因为我认为你需要改变, 因为我没有,或者因为我认为你想改变, 只是因为我认为你想去教导,你想去分享。 你已经从了解中获得了巨大的喜悦, 从你内在流露出的爱中获得了喜悦。 现在,如果你想教导其他人还有很多 尚未被看到的事需要你去看——不是数量上多, 而是在深度上——也许我想在这个方向上改变你, 当你谈及世界和它的冲突与紧张时, 它的暴力,它的伪善,你也许 可以向自己提出另一个问题 ——我确信你已经问了,但是并没有说出来—— 问题就是,不只内在冲突和外在冲突的持久, 还有内在喜悦和外在的喜悦的持久。
21:38 K: Sir, now wait a minute. K:先生,等一等。
21:40 S: These are always there when you talk but they are not expressed. S:当你在讨论的时候,这些东西一直存在,只是没有被表达出来。
21:43 K: When does joy come? When I don't seek it. I mean, it happens! I don't have to cultivate it, the mind hasn't to pursue it. K:喜悦何时才能到来? 当我不再追寻它的时候,它就会自己发生! 我不必去培养它,意识也不能去追逐它。
22:02 S: Yes, the mind cannot pursue joy. S:意识不能去追求喜悦。
22:06 K: Therefore I have to understand… an understanding must take place of what is pleasure and what is joy. That's where we mix… K:因此我们必须去理解,或者说理解必须发生, 对于什么是快感,什么是喜悦的理解。我们把它们混在了一起
22:21 S: We mix our levels, yes. S:是的,我们把它们混在了一起。
22:24 K: To understand joy is more important than to understand pleasure sorry – to understand pleasure is far more important than to understand joy. Because we want pleasure, we pursue pleasure. Everything is our pleasure – the whole moral social structure is based on this enormous pleasure. And pleasure does breed fear, insecurity, and all the rest of it. Now, in the understanding of pleasure, the other thing comes. You don't have to talk about it. The other thing flows, like a fountain. You don't even call it joy, it's ecstasy, something… K:理解喜悦比理解快感更重要, 对不起,理解快感远远比 理解喜悦更重要。 因为我们想要快感,我们追求快感。 任何事对我们而言都成了一种快感, 整个社会道德就基于巨大的快感。 快感滋生了恐惧,不安全感,以及其他的一切。 现在,通过理解快感,另一件事发生了。 你不必谈论它。它会像泉水一样涌出。 你甚至不会叫它喜悦,它就是极乐,就是
23:14 S: Are you saying then that in the pursuit of fear through escape, or in the pursuit of… S:你的意思是在对恐惧的追逐中, 通过逃避,或者在追逐
23:22 K: …joy, I mean pleasure. K:……喜悦,我的意思是快感。
23:24 S: Or in the pursuit of pleasure – in both pursuits we find death and also a death to the dissipation of energy that keeps us from being joyous.

K: That's right, that's right.
S:在追逐快感的过程中——在这两个过程中我们看到了死亡, 在对能量的耗散中也存在死亡, 都阻碍了喜悦。K:是的,是的。
23:35 S: And from being joyous, and seeing, and being loving, or simply being it's all the same thing. S:阻碍了喜悦,看,爱或者阻碍了单纯的存在, 它们都是同一件事。
23:44 K: You see, through negation the positive is. K:你看,通过否定,肯定的事物就出现了。
23:50 S: Yes. S:是的。
23:51 K: Not the positive. Assert the positive is to negate the real. K:不是通过肯定。肯定的断言就否定了真实。
24:00 S: But as we have said before to negate the categories is really not what we are dealing with, nor are we dealing with the negation of seeing simply. We're dealing with the negation of all of those obstacles, like pleasure, to joy. Because unless you negate pleasure you will never be joyous. And when you're joyous you're also quite pleasurable. S:正如我们所言, 否定分类不是 我们正在做的,我们也不是在 否定直接地看。我们是要否定 所有的障碍,比如快感,来获得喜悦。 因为只有否定了快感,你才会有喜悦。 而当你喜悦时,你也会感到很大的快感。
24:24 K: You don't talk about it. The moment you're conscious that you're joyous, it goes. Like being happy, and you say, 'How happy I am!' It becomes nonsense when you say, 'How happy I am!' K:你不会谈论它。当你意识到 你很喜悦时,喜悦就结束了。 就像快乐,当你说‘我真快乐啊!’ 这一切就失去了意义。
24:38 S: Yes, because now you've rationalized it and put it in a category, now it becomes something to speculate about rather than do, to be. At the same time, since we are pursuing as deeply as we can… pursuing seeing and understanding and loving or this undivided attention, since we're pursuing that and we found that one cannot pursue it except by negating fear or negating pleasure… S:是的,因为你将之合理化了, 然后就进行了分类,喜悦就成了一件 用来推测的事,而非存在的状态。 同时,既然我们探究得如此深入 追踪看,了解和爱, 以及那种完整的关注,既然我们在探究这一切, 我们发现要追踪它们, 我们只能通过去否定恐惧,或者否定快感
25:07 K: Yes, sir. Understanding pleasure understanding the whole nature of pleasure. K:是的,理解快感, 理解快感的整个本质。
25:13 S: Then we must ask ourselves, if these are not the avenues to seeing or loving or being – and I suppose we will ultimately get to the question of being, or being one, we may get to that question because we want to discover that you are one with the world and the world is one with you and you are one with myself and I am one with you: we want to discover that. And we've seen that seeing must take place, and loving must take place, an awareness of being must take place – we've seen what to do to get rid of what gets in the way of the most exhilarating of all experiences or realities, the reality of just being – I am, enough. I don't need these things to be – here I am. Then what would you think would be the next step – and we're not talking about process or method now – what would you perceive would be the next step? S:然后我们就会问自己,如果不存在看、 爱,或存在的途径,我认为我们最终 会提出关于存在,或者合一的问题, 我们也许会提出这个问题,因为我们想发现 你和世界是一体的,世界和你也是一体的, 你和我是一体的,我也和你是一体的。 我们想发现这一点,我们也看到了: 这种看必须发生,这种爱必须发生, 这种对存在的觉察必须发生——我们明白了要如何去 放弃那些挡在路上的 最令人兴奋的经验或事实, 只保留‘存在’这个事实——我是……这就足够了。 我不需要那些东西存在——我就在这里。 接下来,你认为下一步是什么 ——当然我们现在不是在讨论步骤或者方法—— 你认为下一步是什么?
26:11 K: Next step of what?

S: In the development…
K:什么的下一步?S:发展
26:15 K: From what? K:从什么发展?
26:17 S: From this undivided attention that we discussed earlier and from this loving which we found to be the same as attention choiceless attention, and from this being which we found to be the same as loving and seeing or understanding and now we're trying to pursue your… S:从我们之前讨论过的完整的关注, 从那种爱开始——我们发现那种爱和关注, 和那种无选择的关注是一样的——以及从那种 我们发现与爱、看或理解并无不同的存在开始, 现在我们尝试去探寻
26:39 K: What takes place next? What happens? K:接下来会发生什么?
26:41 S: …experience of – I don't like to use the word 'oneness' because that gets us at the end before we go to the middle thing but what does one do next after one has seen, and has loved and has been? S:某种经验,我不想用“同一性”这个词 因为它会在我们才走了一半之前,就将我们带向终点, 当我看了、爱了、存在了之后 下一步要做什么?
26:56 K: One lives, sir.

S: One lives. So that to live is the same as to love and to see, in any real sense.
K:那就这样生活,先生。S:就这样生活。 所以去生活和真正意义上的爱和看是一样的。
27:03 K: But it means, sir, the understanding of death. K:但是,先生,那意味着对死亡的理解。
27:10 S: The understanding of death. S:对死亡的理解。
27:12 K: Death. Because to love, one must die. K:就是死亡。因为 要爱,一个人必须死去。
27:19 S: Unquestionably. S:毫无疑问。
27:21 K: So there must be the investigation, the understanding the awareness, what it means to die. Without that there is no love. K:因此必须去探究,去了解, 去觉察,死亡到底意味着什么? 没有它,就不可能有爱。
27:34 S: But could not this be a fiction, because who is to tell us what it's like to die?

K: We're going to find out.
S:但是这不会成为一种编造吗?因为谁能来告诉我们 死亡是什么样子?K:我们要一起弄清这一点。
27:40 S: Find, good.

K: I don't want anybody to tell me, because that means authority.
S:去发现它,很好。K:我不想让任何人告诉我, 因为那意味着权威。
27:46 S: Well, it means dead people, who can't speak. S:是的,那意味着不能说话的死人。
27:48 K: Not only that. The whole Asiatic world believes in reincarnation, as you know, and, in the Christian world, the resurrection and so on. To find this out one must investigate if there is any permanent thing in me that reincarnates, that is reborn, resurrected, one must enquire into this question, if there is anything permanent. Permanent? Nothing is permanent! The carpets go, all the structure, the technological thing, all the things man has put together is... in a flux. K:不仅如此。 你知道的,整个亚洲世界信仰轮回, 同时基督教世界相信复活,等等。 为了探究这一切,一个人必须询问自己的内在 是否有什么永恒的,可以轮回的, 可以重生或复活的东西,一个人必须探询 这个问题,存在永恒的事物吗? 永恒不变?没有什么永恒的事物! 地毯会消失,所有的结构,技术的事物, 人类所拼凑起来的一切事物……都在流动变迁。
28:43 S: You are not suggesting that the measure is permanent. You are not suggesting that the measure is permanent. S:你在暗示衡量并不是永恒的。 你在暗示衡量并不是永恒的。
28:49 K: Measure?

S: The measure. You were born and you have lived and you will die, and this will take you a certain number of years.
K:衡量?S:衡量。 你出生,长大,然后死去, 这需要一些年岁。
28:59 K: Seventy years, thirty years, twenty years, whatever it is. K:七十年,三十年,二十年,无论是多少年。
29:01 S: Is the measure real or are you real? S:衡量是真实的吗?或者你是真实的?
29:03 K: No, no. I am not talking in terms of measure. K:不,不,我没有从衡量的角度去谈。
29:06 S: So then if the measure isn't real but something external to you then do we have a right to say that you end simply? S:那么如果衡量不是真实的,而是某种你外在的东西, 那我们有权说你只是结束了这一切吗?
29:16 K: We are coming to that. You know, the whole Greek world thought in terms of measurement. K:我们正要来谈这一点。 你知道,整个希腊世界, 通过衡量的方式思考。
29:27 S: Yes. S:是的。
29:28 K: And the whole Western world is based on measurement. And the Eastern world said, measure is illusion. And they went into other kind of…

S: …measures.
K:整个西方世界也是基于衡量。 而东方世界说,衡量是虚幻的。 然后他们就进入了另一种……S:另一种衡量。
29:40 K: Yes, other kind of measure and they called it immeasurable. Now, I am saying, sir life, living, as we now live, is a conflict. What we call love is the pursuit of pleasure. What we call death is an avoidance, is fear, dread of it. And being afraid, so completely, of such an ending we have reincarnation theory, various other theories which give us great satisfaction, great comfort. And that is not an answer. K:是的,另一种衡量,只是他们称之为不可衡量之物。 先生,现在,我说 生命,生活,我们现在所过的生活,是一场冲突。 我们所谓的爱就是对快感的追求, 我们所谓的死亡就是逃避和恐惧,对死亡的恐惧。 因为害怕那彻底的结束, 我们发明了轮回,还有许多其他理论, 这些理论给我们巨大的满足感和安慰。 但这些理论并不是答案。
30:19 S: It keeps us from seeing the reality. S:理论阻止我们看清真相。
30:21 K: So, negate all that. So there must be the understanding of death. What is death? There is the physiological ending. We don't mind that. We all see death everywhere. But what human beings are concerned with is the psychological ending the 'me' ending – the me which says, 'I own this house' my property, my wife, my husband, my knowledge; I am going to lose all that, therefore I don't want to lose. The known is more attractive than the unknown. The known is the factor of fear.

S: In a rational world.
K:所以,否定这一切。 所以必须有对死亡的理解。 死亡是什么?存在生理上的结束。 我们不介意这一点。我们看到死亡无处不在。 但是人类担忧的 是心理上的结束, ‘我’的结束—这个‘我’在说,‘我拥有这个房子, 我的财产,我的妻子,我的丈夫,我的知识’, 但我会失去这一切,因此我不想失去。 已知比未知更有吸引力。 已知就是恐惧的因素。S:在理性的世界里。
31:12 K: We are taking, looking at it.

S: Yes.
K:我们在讨论,观察这一点。S:是的。
31:15 K: So I have to understand what does death mean? Does it mean that there is a permanent entity – call it the soul, the Hindus call it the atman, doesn't matter what name you give it – a permanent entity that never dies but evolves: resurrected, reincarnated, in time. Is there such thing as permanent entity? Not a theory not a speculative assertion, 'There is or there is not' but to find out for oneself if there is a permanent entity, the 'me' that says, 'I must survive.' Therefore I must have future lives, whether in heaven or doesn't matter. Is there such thing? Which is psychologically. Which thought has put together as the 'me'. K:所以我必须知道死亡意味着什么?它是否意味着 存在一个永恒的实体——你叫它灵魂, 印度教徒叫它阿特曼(Atman),不管你叫它什么—— 一个不会死亡,永恒存在,不断进化的实体, 它可以在时间中复活,轮回。 存在这样一个永恒的实体吗? 不是一个理论, 不是一个推测性的声明,‘存在或者不存在’, 而是去自己探究清楚,是否存在这样一个永恒的实体, 那个说‘我必须活下去’的‘我’, 那个必须有来世,无论是在天堂里还是其他什么地方的‘我’。 在心理上,有这样的事物吗? 思想拼凑了这个‘我’。
32:24 S: I cannot conceive of there being a permanent entity associated with what we call the me. S:我不认为我们所谓的‘我’和 那个永恒的实体有什么关系。
32:30 K: Obviously.

S: Obviously, yes.
K:很明显。S:是的,很明显。
32:32 K: Then is there a permanent me apart from that? K:那在‘我’之外有永恒的‘我’吗?
32:35 S: But then we can ask the question – is there something immeasurable about me, apart from that? S:然后我们就可以问——存在不可测度之物 在‘我’之中或者在‘我’之外吗?
32:43 K: The moment you say, 'The me is the immeasurable' then I am back again. K:当你说‘我是不可测度的’的时候,我们就又退回去了。
32:47 S: You are back again, right. Apart from the self, the not me. S:是的,你又退回去了。在自我之外,非我。
32:51 K: I am going to find out.

S: Yes. Now we must pursue that.
K:我要去搞清楚它。S:是的,现在我们必须去探寻这一点。
32:54 K: That's it. There must be discovery of whether there is the immeasurable or not. Not: 'there is' or 'there is not', one must come upon it, the mind must come upon it. So, there is no permanent self – higher, lower – no permanency. Therefore what is, then, death? Physically, biologically, there is death. K:对,必须有这样的发现,那就是是否存在 不可测度之物。不是仅仅说‘存在’或者‘不存在’, 一个人必须到达这一点,意识必须到达这一点。 因此,不存在永恒的自我——高级的或低级的——它都不是永恒的。 所以,什么是死亡呢? 生理上,生物学上,存在死亡。
33:25 S: This we all understand. We see it all the time. S:这点我们都能理解,也都能看到。
33:27 K: Everything goes. What one is afraid of is the psychological accumulation in relationship of every form of image, knowledge, function – that's what we are frightened of losing. That takes the form of the 'me' which is going to evolve, become more and more perfect till it reaches heaven or whatever. We see that is false. Then what is death? K:一切事物都会死去。 一个人真正害怕的是心理上的各种形式的 意象、知识、活动的积累物 ——这是我们害怕失去的。 这一切变成了‘我’,而这个‘我’会发展进化, 会变得越来越完美,最终到达天堂或者无论什么地方。 我们看到了这一切的虚假。那么死亡到底是什么?
34:04 S: You were suggesting that we can discover the meaning of the words 'to live' by looking for the meaning of the words 'to die.' S:你在暗示为了发现‘生活’这个词的含义, 我们就需要去寻找‘死亡’这个词的意义。
34:14 K: They are related.

S: They are related. Unquestionably they are related.

K: They are related.
K:它们彼此相关。S:它们彼此相关。 毫无疑问。K:它们是相关的。
34:18 S: And most religious writers in comparative religion have said, that in order to live one must die. S:绝大部分的宗教作家在比较宗教学中说过, 为了去生活,你必须死去。
34:25 K: Sir, as I don't read these books or any of these things it is an actual fact. To live you must die. Which means, dying means dying every day to all the accumulations that you have gathered during the day, ending each day, dying, so that the mind is fresh every day, is new. K:先生,我没有读过那些书或者其他类似的东西。 这是个事实,要生活,你必须死去。 这意味着,死亡意味着, 每一天都埋葬所有的积累物, 你白天积累的一切,每天都结束它,让它死去, 因此意识每一天都是新鲜的、崭新的。
34:46 S: Yes. Now, in order to pursue the question of 'to live' by looking at the question of 'to die' and looking at it finally. S:是的,为了探究‘生活’的问题, 我们必须先看看‘死亡’的问题。并且从终极的角度去看它。
34:56 K: We do. K:我们就是在这样做。
34:57 S: The ultimate death, the body has disintegrated in the grave. S:最终的死亡就是,身体会在坟墓中分解消亡。
35:01 K: The body is important, to look after it, care for it, and all the rest of it.

S: But bury it when it is dead.
K:身体很重要,你需要去照顾和关照它, 等等这些。S:但当身体死去之后就埋葬它。
35:07 K: Get rid of it. Bury it, burn it – it's simpler. K:放弃它(身体),埋葬它,或者更简单的,烧掉它。
35:12 S: Yes. Now suppose that we want to see what happens when one dies in order to see what happens when one lives. That's what we're doing.

K: That's it. Therefore I must first understand what it means to live not what it means to die. One's life as it is is a turmoil – as it is. It is chaos, it is a mess, with all kinds of ideals, conclusions – it is a mess. Now, if there is no order in this mess I can't understand what death is. Because death is perfect order. I don't know if you see.
S:是的。假设我们想看看 死亡之时会发生什么,进而了解活着会发生什么。 这就是我们正在做的。K:是的。因此 我必须首先了解活着意味着什么, 而非死亡意味着什么。 我们的生活是一场混乱——这就是真实现状。 我们的生活是混乱的,肮脏的,有着各种理想和结论, 简直一团糟。 如果这种混乱中没有秩序, 我就不能理解什么是死亡。因为死亡是完美的秩序, 我不知道你是否明白了。
35:59 S: What do you mean, because order to me is something imposed from without. S:你的意思是,因为秩序对于我来说是某种外界强加的东西。
36:02 K: Wait, sir, I'm coming to that. Death is perfect order because it is the ending of disorder. K:等等,先生,我就要聊到那一点了。死亡是完美的秩序, 因为死亡终结了失序。
36:08 S: All right. I understand. Yes. S:是的,我理解。
36:14 K: So, there must be the ending of disorder in my living. K:因此,我生活中的失序必须终止。
36:22 S: Yes. S:是的。
36:23 K: And the ending of disorder is to be aware of what is disorder, choicelessly. What is disorder? My belief, my gods, my country, my saying, 'This is better' – you follow? – all this terrible violence. See it as it is. And when you see it as it is without separation you have energy – as we went into that. Then in perceiving disorder there is order, which is harmony. Now, having established that – established in the sense: see it, realize, be it – then death is not separate from order, they are together. Order means the ending of disorder. K:终结失序就是要去觉察什么是失序, 无选择地去觉察。什么是失序?我的信仰,我的神,我的国家, 我说‘这个更好’——你跟上了吗?这一切都是惊人的暴力。 看到这些事实。当你没有分离地看到这些事实, 你就会有能量——我们谈过这一点了。 在对失序的觉察中,就有秩序,也就是和谐感。 现在,我们已经建立了这些,建立就意味着:看到它, 认识到它,做到它——那么,死亡就不会和秩序相分离, 它们是在一起的。秩序意味着失序的终结。
37:20 S: Yes, and disorder or order, means a consciousness of my presence within you or your presence within me, or of our oneness. We must pursue the question of our becoming aware or giving this undivided attention or loving each other in which each other is eliminated. Now this is a duality. S:是的,失序或秩序意味着意识到你中有我, 我中有你,或者说我们的同一性。 我们必须探究这个问题,那就是我们去觉察, 付出了这种完整的关注,或者彼此相爱, 在其中没有了彼此。可这是一种二元性。
37:50 K: There is only a state... Look, sir, there is no you and me. K:只存在这种状态……先生,你看,没有你或者我。
37:53 S: Yes.

K: I am not you and you are not me. There is that quality of awareness, choiceless, that sense of attention, in which the me and the you ceases. You don't say: 'It's unity', unity implies division.
S:是的。K:我不是你,你也不是我。 存在着这种觉察的品质,无选择的觉察,那种关注感, 在其中,我和你都消失了。 你不会说:‘这就是同一感’,同一感就暗示了分裂。
38:13 S: But you are using unity in the mathematical sense now. I am using unity... Oneness to me implies no, oneness to me means the same as undivided attention.

K: Yes.
S:你现在在使用数学意义上的同一。 我说的‘同一’……同一性对我而言暗示了, 不,同一性对我而言, 它和完整的关注是一样的。K:是的。
38:28 S: It doesn't mean division. It doesn't presuppose division. S:它并不意味着分裂。它并不是以分裂为先决条件的。
38:31 K: You see, sir, we are discussing what does it mean to live, to love and to die. That is, the ending of disorder is the ending of death. I don't know there's great beauty in this. In that state there is not you and me – there is no division. Then you can find out in that state what is the immeasurable. Only then you can find out not before, because then it becomes merely speculation, or somebody says, 'There is the immeasurable,there is no God or God' – that has no value. Only when there is this complete order, really mathematical order, born out of disorder, not a blueprint imposed on disorder, then you will find out, then the mind discovers whether there is an immeasurable or not. That, nobody can say, 'yes' or 'no'. If you don't see it, if there is no perception of the immeasurable then it merely becomes conceptual. And most religions live on conceptual. K:先生,你看,我们在讨论 生活、爱、死亡意味着什么。 失序的终结,就是死亡的终结。 我不知道它,这之中就有巨大的美。 在这种状态中,没有你或者我——这之中没有分裂。 然后在这种状态中,你就会发现那不可衡量之物是什么。 只有那时你才能发现,而不是在此之前, 因为那样就成了推测,或者他人说过的话, “存在不可衡量之物,存在神或者不存在神”——这没有什么价值。 只有存在完全的秩序,真正的数学一般的秩序, 产生于失序的秩序,而不是强加于失序的蓝图, 然后你才会发现,意识才能发现 是否存在不可衡量之物。 没有人可以说‘存在’或者‘不存在’, 如果你没有亲自看到它, 如果没有对不可衡量之物的觉察, 这一切就成了一些概念。 绝大部分宗教都是依靠概念而活的。
40:05 S: Suppose we were to pursue this question of order as the next step and ask ourselves, when we say things like this, that peace harmony, like the harmony of my fingers working together or like the harmony of you and I in our dialogue, if we were to say that peace or harmony is the tranquillity that's associated with order, and wanted to say and what more do we mean by order than just orderliness? S:假设我们下一步想探究秩序这个问题, 我们问自己,当我们谈论这类事物时,那种和平, 和谐,就像我的手指能和谐地相互配合一样, 或者像你和我谈话中的和谐一样,如果我们说 那种和平或者和谐就是宁静, 它们和秩序相关,我们就想问了, 我们所谓秩序的含义,除了整洁有条理,它是否还有更多的含义?
40:38 K: Oh my! Orderliness every housewife has. K:哎呀!每个家庭主妇都是整洁有条理的。
40:43 S: Yes, and can be in complete turmoil in the possession of orderliness. S:是的,整洁有条理的人也可能是彻底混乱的。
40:46 K: Turmoil inside. We are talking not only outward order but deep, inward order. K:内在的混乱。我们讨论的不只是外在的秩序, 而是更深层次的,内在的秩序。
40:51 S: Yes. Now, what does this deep, inward can I use the word 'ordination' rather than 'order'? S:是的,那么这种深层次的、内在的秩序是什么, 我可以称之为次序(ordination)而非秩序吗?
40:56 K: Ordination – I don't know quite what… K:次序——我不太了解……——
40:58 S: The ordination of one to another, then remove the divisions. S:彼此之间的次序就消除了分裂。
41:04 K: Ordination. If we understand by that word order in the sense no conflict, no friction, no sense of me being bigger than you, or no comparison, no sense of ambition, greed... K:次序。如果我们理解了秩序这个词意味着 没有冲突,没有摩擦,不存在我比你更伟大的想法, 没有比较、野心、贪婪
41:24 S: Possession S:占有。
41:25 K: the real quality of mind which is not concerned with all this bilge with all this nonsense – then that is order. K:一种完全不关心所有这些 毫无意义之事的真正的心灵品质——那时才会有秩序。
41:35 S: Yes. So then order and peace and tranquillity, which is energy in its fullness rather than the lack of energy. It's not activity but it's the fullness of energy, so it's dynamic. S:是的,秩序、和平还有宁静,就是能量, 完整的能量,而非缺乏能量。 它不是活动,而是完整的能量,不断变化,充满活力。
41:51 K: That is necessary, isn't it? When there is that complete order, the mind is no longer in conflict therefore has abundance of energy. K:这是必须的,不是吗?当存在绝对的秩序时, 意识就不再冲突,因此就有了充足的能量。
42:04 S: And what has been done, by you or by me, as we relate to each other in order to achieve this order that we are speaking about? S:当我们彼此相关联时,你或者我,到底要做什么 才能实现我们谈到的秩序?
42:18 K: You can't achieve it. Out of being aware of disorder, choicelessly, order comes naturally. K:你无法主动去实现它。在对失序无选择的觉察之中, 秩序就自然诞生了。
42:27 S: But is it true that many people do not achieve order? And we were also asking the question: 'Can we change disorder into order or can we change death into life, can we change hate into love can we change blindness into seeing?' These are the questions we've been dealing with. and we haven't answered the question: can this change take place? Just there it is, you know. But if we wanted to deal with this… S:但实际上很多人并没有实现这种秩序? 因此我们也想问: ‘我们能否把失序变成有序, 把僵死变成鲜活,把仇恨变成爱, 把盲目变成看到吗? 这些是我们一直在处理的问题, 我们还没有回答, 这样的改变能发生吗?你瞧,改变就那么发生了。 但是如果我们想处理这一切
42:54 K: I or you listen to what is being said. You give your whole attention not as a Catholic or this or that – you give your complete attention! In that state of attention there is a transformation. You are no longer a Hindu, Buddhist or whatever it is you have finished with all that. You are now a total human being. Then you go round talking about it – you follow? You are active, you are an outsider operating on the world. But you are not of the world but an outsider. K:我和你听到了这些话。 你对这一切,给予了完整的关注, 你不再是一个天主教徒等等——因为你在完整地关注它! 在这样一种关注的状态中,就存在一种转变。 你不再是一个印度教徒,佛教徒,或者其他什么, 你已经结束了这一切,你现在是一个完整的人了。 然后你就可以到处去谈论它了——你跟上了吗? 你充满活力,你作为一个局外人,在这个世界上活动着。 但你并不属于这个世界,你是一个局外人。
43:43 S: Would you say that in our conversation that the closer we get to the truth, the less conscious you become of the fact that I am a Catholic priest? Does it matter? S:你是说通过我们的对话,我们越接近 那个真理,我们就越不会意识到 我是一个天主教神父的事实?这很重要吗?
43:54 K: Not in the least.

S: Not in the least.
K:一点儿也不重要。S:一点儿也不重要。
43:56 K: But it is up to you. K:不过这取决于你。
43:58 S: And it has not mattered to me whether you are a priest or not a priest. I haven't even thought of that because I am giving choiceless attention to you. S:这对我无所谓,无论你是一个神父 或者不是一个神父。我甚至没去想过这一点, 因为我正在无选择地关注着你。
44:05 K: It makes a little difference. It makes a difference. Take, for instance, I have met in India and elsewhere... Several Hindus have come to me and said 'Why don't you put on sannyasis robes?' You know, sannyasis, the monks robe. I said, 'Why should I?' 'To show that you are not of the world.' I said, 'Look, I'm not wanting to show anything to anybody.' This is real to me, that's good enough. If you want to come and listen, listen. But don't go by my garb, by my gesture, by my face, that's not important. But to them it is important because they use that as a platform from which to attack or to distract or to take. But if you are not standing on any platform, if you don't belong to anything, why should I have any collar, no collar, no shirt… [laughs] K:这确实有些不同。这确实有些不同。 比如说,我在印度以及其他一些地方遇到过 一些印度教徒,他们到我这里来,说: ‘你为什么不穿上托钵僧的袍子?’ 你知道的,托钵僧、僧侣的袍子,我说,‘我为什么要穿呢?’ ‘这样就能显示你是一位世外之人了。’ 我说,‘注意,我不想向任何人展示任何东西。’ 这对我是真实的,这就足够了。 如果你想来听我讲,那就听。 但是不要根据我的装束、手势或者样貌来判断, 这都不重要。但是对他们来说这很重要, 因为他们要利用它来作为一个平台,进而借此去攻击他人, 去转移或者获取一些东西。 但是如果你没有站在任何平台上, 如果你不属于任何事物,又为何要穿上 任何衣领,或者不穿衣领,不穿衬衫呢……(笑)
45:12 S: But I think as we pursue the question of what it means to live and to die, to be and to not be, to love and to hate as we pursue those things, we must also at the same time pursue the question: what does it mean to belong? Now, if you asked me, 'Do you belong to the Catholic Church?' I would say, 'Of course not' because I am not a thing which can be possessed by anyone.

K: Quite.
S:但是我认为当我们探寻什么是生活、 什么是死亡,什么是存在或者不存在,什么是爱和恨的问题时, 必须同时探寻 ‘什么是归属?’的问题。 如果你问我,‘你属于天主教会吗?’ 我会说,‘当然不’因为我不是一件 可以被任何人拥有的事物。K:是的。
45:36 S: Nor is the Catholic Church something I possess. So we would not like to use the word 'belong' If we had a love relationship with each other could I say you are my friend?

K: Yes.
S:天主教会也不是我所拥有的东西。 所以我不会用‘属于’这个词。 如果我们彼此间有一种相互关爱的关系, 我能说你是我的朋友吗?K:当然。
45:48 S: No I couldn't because that would connote belonging. S:不,我不能,因为那暗示着你属于我。
45:50 K: I see what you mean. Yes, yes. K:我明白你的意思。是的,是的。
45:52 S: I could not say you were my friend. We use the word all the time but the word 'my' distorts what we see when we... S:我不能说你是我的朋友。我们一直使用这个词, 但‘我的’这个词扭曲了我们所看到的东西,当我们
45:58 K: Sir, I am questioning, why do we belong to anything at all? K:先生,我质疑为什么我们必须要属于某种事物?
46:03 S: I don't think we can. If we are free then we are not slaves and we don't belong to anything.

K: That is the main thing.
S:我认为我们无法摆脱这一切。如果我们自由了,那我们就不再是奴隶, 也不再属于任何事物了。K:这才是要点所在。
46:09 S: The possessive relationship is irrelevant. S:这种相互占有的关系是毫不相干的。
46:12 K: Not to belong to any organized spiritual or religious group, or belong to a party, this or that. Because that encourages divisions. K:不属于任何组织化的灵性或宗教团体, 或者任何党派,等等。 因为这一切都鼓励了分裂。
46:23 S: Yes. If I am, or if I am free – those mean the same thing then I am not capable of being possessed by anyone. I don't belong. The word doesn't mean anything. S:是的。如果‘我在’了,或者‘我自由’了——它们是一个意思, 那么我就不会被任何人所占有。 我不属于任何事物。那个词并没有任何意义。
46:32 K: Not to belong means to stand alone. K:不属于意味着独立。
46:40 S: But this is the contradiction of what we have been saying during the whole time. No, not to belong is the price one must pay for being and loving and seeing anything. S:但这和我们一直讨论的东西 有些矛盾了。不,‘不属于’是 我们为了存在、爱和看到任何事物所必须付出的代价。
46:56 K: Yes, sir, but also it implies not to belong to any structure which human beings have put together. K:是的,先生。但它也暗示了,不属于任何 人类建立起来的结构。
47:10 S: Yes. S:是的。
47:13 K: Which means that you have to stand alone, outside. Not belong to all this mess. Sir, when you have order you don't belong to disorder. K:那意味着你必须独立,做一个局外之人。 不属于所有这些混乱。 先生,如果你有秩序,那你就不属于失序了。
47:28 S: But now I think we are getting close to what we wanted to say that to die is to live. S:现在,我觉得我们已经很接近我们想要说的那个 ‘生活就是死去’了。
47:38 K: Sir, is that a concept or a reality? K:先生,这对你来说是概念上的还是真实的?
47:42 S: No, no, that's an experience, that's a reality. S:不,不,这是一种体验,是真实的。
47:45 K: If it is real it is something burning! It isn't just a… it burns everything false! K:如果这是真实的,那它就是熊熊燃烧的火焰! 它不只是……它会烧尽一切虚伪之物。
47:52 S: I see that, and of course we experience this all the time. What I'm saying is, if one can get over the fear of dying and one can understand and live with the fullness of this energy that we're talking about. I think by the same token, if one can get over the question of belonging, or having in any way, one can get to the question that being is. I wonder if this is loneliness, or being alone. I wonder if this is being… S:我明白,并且毫无疑问,我们一直在体验它。 我想说的是,如果一个人能克服对死亡的恐惧, 那么他就能理解这一切,并且带着那全然的能量去生活, 也就是我们所说的那种能量。同样地,我认为如果一个人可以 以某种方式解决‘属于’或‘占有’的问题, 那么他就可以明白关于‘存在是什么’的问题了。我不知道 是否这就是单独,或者独立。我想知道这是否就是存在
48:28 K: The danger of being, one has to go into that. What is it to be? We can put it into various categories. The category is not being. K:‘存在’也会有危险,我们必须去探究它。存在是什么意思? 我们可以把它归于不同的类别,但这些类别并不是存在。
48:40 S: But when you suggested that, when we were discussing the question of what it is to be, and we pursued this through the question of dying and belonging, and you said – to be is to be alone. Is that what you want to say? S:但是你暗示了它,我们讨论了关于 ‘什么是存在’的问题,然后我们通过另一个问题来追踪它, 也就是死亡和归属的问题,然后你说:存在就是独立。 这是你想表达的吗?
48:55 K: How can I, sir, if I die to my conditioning as a Hindu… how can I belong to… be a Hindu? It has no meaning. K:先生,如果我结束作为一个印度教徒的制约, 我又怎么会属于……成为一个印度教徒呢?这没有意义。
49:04 S: Fine. But having died to being… S:很好。但是在结束了成为
49:07 K: See what happens, sir. I discard, I throw away the garb of Hinduism, or Catholicism, whatever it is, and what takes place? I am an outsider. I am an outsider in the sense I may say, 'I love you' but I am still an outsider, because there is a state of disorder to which human beings belong and the man who is outside, he doesn't belong. K:先生,看看发生了什么。我丢弃、扔掉了印度教徒的服装, 或者天主教的服装,无论什么,然后会发生什么呢? 我就成了局外之人。 我是个局外之人,这里局外人的意思就是,我也许会说,‘我爱你’, 但我仍然是个局外之人,因为人类 属于一种失序的状态, 但那个局外之人,他并不属于这种失序状态。
49:37 S: Unquestionably. Or may not have a sense of belonging or cannot use the word 'to belong'. I cannot use the word 'to belong'. S:毫无疑问。或者说他也许并没有一种‘属于什么’的感觉 不能用‘属于’这个词,我不能用‘属于’这个词。
49:43 K: He is out! There is no relationship! Now, when there is no relationship between disorder and order – you follow, sir?

S: I follow.
K:他已经出局了!没有任何关系了! 那么,当失序和秩序之间没有了关系 ——你跟上了吗?先生S:我跟上了。
49:56 K: Then, what is the state of the mind which is not that? K:那么,那个不属于这一切的意识,它是怎样的状态?
50:04 S: You are suggesting that the state of the mind is one of being alone. S:你在暗示那种意识状态是某种单独的状态。
50:09 K: Alone in the sense it is not contaminated, it is really innocent – innocence in the sense it cannot be hurt. After all, the word 'innocency', the root meaning is 'not to be hurt.' K:单独,意思就是未被污染,它是真正的纯真 ——纯真的意思就是它无法被伤害。 毕竟,‘纯真’这个词的词根意思就是‘不被伤害’。
50:28 S: Yes. S:是的。
50:29 K: Nocere – you know. So, it is no longer though it may live in the world, it is not of the world. K:Nocere(拉丁语:伤害)——你知道的。因此,他不再 尽管它也许生活在这个世界上,但它并不属于这个世界。
50:39 S: Yes, in the sense of conflict and turmoil S:是的,就那些冲突和混乱而言。
50:41 K: All the messy stuff.

S: And all the messy stuff, yes.
K:所有那些混乱的东西。S:所有那些混乱的东西,是的。
50:44 K: Now, that is absolutely necessary to find out more. Not more in the sense of something more, but that state is absolutely essential to discover the immeasurable or not. K:所以,我们绝对有必要去发现那更多的事物。 这里‘更多’的意思不是指更多的东西,而是一种状态, 这种状态是必不可少的,有了它你才能去发现是否存在那不可衡量之物。
50:59 S: Yes. I think this is true. So that we do, in a sense, find seeing and loving and being, in being alone. S:是的,我认为这是对的。所以 从某种意义上说,我们一定要找到看、爱、存在、独立。
51:13 K: Yes, sir. You see… K:是的,先生。你看
51:18 S: If one disassociates himself from disorder, he's… S:如果一个人把自身从失序中解脱出来,他
51:22 K: Not 'one mind.' In observing disorder, in being aware choicelessly of disorder, order comes. You don't belong to one or… there is order. K:不是‘一个意识’。在观察失序,觉察 无选择地觉察失序之中,秩序就会到来。 你不属于这个或那个……秩序就在那里。
51:36 S: And as we pursue the question of the meaning of order, – or harmony, tranquillity or peace – we found ourselves with the same answer, but this is to be in the first place, this is to love in the first place, this is to see in the first place. S:所以,当我们探究秩序的意义 ——或者和谐,宁静,和平——我们会 得到同一个答案,但是首先 要有爱,这是第一位的, 要有观察,这是第一位的。
51:53 K: Order, sir, is one of the most extraordinary things because it's always new. It isn't order according to a pattern, it is a living thing. Virtue is a living thing. It isn't: 'I am virtuous'. K:先生,秩序,是最非凡的事物之一, 因为它永远是新的。 它不是遵循某种模式而来的秩序,它是活生生的。 美德是鲜活的事物,而不是‘我很有道德’。
52:11 S: Yes. S:是的。
52:12 K: You cannot ever say 'I am virtuous,' because if you say that you are not virtuous. But virtue is a living thing, moving, like a river flowing, alive. And therefore in that state something beyond measure takes place. K:你不能说‘我很有道德’, 因为你一旦说出这句话,你就不再道德了。 而美德是活生生的事物,它不断运动,就像流动的河水,充满生机。 因此在这种状态中, 有一些超越衡量的事情发生了。
52:35 S: And it's at that moment that one discovers the immeasurable. S:在那一刻,人们就发现了不可衡量之物。
52:38 K: Yes.

S: Yes.
K:是的。S:没错。
52:40 K: You see, not discovers – it is there. It is there!

S: Yes.
K:你瞧,那并不是发现——它就在那里。 它就在那里!S:是的。
52:45 K: 'Discovery' and 'experience' are rather unfortunate words, because most human beings want to experience something great because their lives are shoddy, their lives are petty, their lives are full of anxiety. They say, 'For God's sake, give me greater experience, something more'. Therefore these meditations, these groups forming who meditate and all that they are searching for that. Whereas they have to bring order in their life first. And then what takes place is something quite beyond measure. I think that's enough. K:‘发现’和‘经验’都是很不幸的词语, 因为大多数人都想去经验某种伟大的事物, 因为他们的生活是卑劣的,琐碎的, 他们的生活充满焦虑。 他们说,‘看在上帝的份上,给我 一些更伟大的经验,一些更超越性的东西吧’。 因此就有了那些冥想, 组建了那些团体,他们去冥想,等等这些, 他们在追寻这些东西。 然而,他们首先需要的是,给自己的生活带来秩序。 然后 就会发生一些完全超越衡量的事情。 我觉得这就够了。
53:32 S: So then if we are pursuing the question of the measurelessness… if we are pursuing…

K: You can't pursue it.
S:因此,如果我们去追寻 关于那没有衡量之物的问题 如果我们追寻……K:你无法去追寻它。
53:45 S: Well, and you can't discover it…

K: You can't pursue it.
S:对,你也不能发现……K:你不能追寻它。
53:48 S: This is good. You cannot pursue it, you cannot discover it and it's not good to use the word 'experience' about it. All of this we understand. When one comes upon it... S:很好。你无法去‘追寻’它,你也无法去‘发现’它, 用‘经验’这个词也并不恰当。 我们都理解这一切。而当我们偶遇它时
53:58 K: You leave the door open, sir. K:让门开着,先生。
54:00 S: You leave the door open. S:要让门开着。
54:01 K: Let the sun come in. If the sun comes in, it's all right, if it doesn't, it's all right.

S: Yes.
K:让阳光照进来。如果阳光照进来了,那就没问题了, 如果没照进来,也没关系。S:是的。
54:07 K: Because the moment you pursue it you close the door. K:因为当你追求它的时候,你就关上了门。
54:10 S: The very pursuit is the closing the door. S:追求的行动本身关上了那扇门。
54:12 K: The very search for truth is the closing of truth, blocking truth. K:对真理的寻找终止了真理,阻碍了真理。
54:16 S: Yes.

K: Right, that's enough.
S:是的。K:好了,就到此为止吧。