克里希那穆提 - 倾听的艺术

Krishnamurti Subtitles

SD74CA10 - 倾听的艺术
与艾伦·W·安德森博士的第十次对话
美国，加利福尼亚，圣地亚哥
1974年2月22日

0:38	Krishnamurti in Dialogue with Dr. Allan W. Anderson	克里希那穆提与艾伦·W·安德森博士的对话
0:43	J. Krishnamurti was born in South India and educated in England. For the past 40 years he has been speaking in the United States, Europe, India, Australia, and other parts of the world. From the outset of his life's work he repudiated all connections with organised religions and ideologies and said that his only concern was to set man absolutely unconditionally free. He is the author of many books, among them The Awakening of Intelligence, The Urgency of Change, Freedom From the Known, and The Flight of the Eagle. This is one of a series of dialogues between Krishnamurti and Dr. Allan W. Anderson, who is professor of religious studies at San Diego State University where he teaches Indian and Chinese scriptures and the oracular tradition. Dr. Anderson, a published poet, received his degree from Columbia University and the Union Theological Seminary. He has been honoured with the distinguished Teaching Award from the California State University.	J·克里希那穆提出生于南印度，在英国接受教育。在过去40年间，他曾在美国、欧洲、印度、澳大利亚和世界其他地方演讲。在他毕生的事业开始时，他就断绝了与有组织的宗教和意识形态的所有关系，并说他只关心让人类彻底地、无条件地自由。他是很多本书的作者，其中有《智慧的觉醒》、《转变的紧迫性》、《从已知中解脱》和《鹰的翱翔》。这是克里希那穆提和艾伦·W·安德森博士的系列对话之一。安德森博士是宗教学教授，任教于圣地亚哥州立大学，他教授印度与中国的经典，以及传统的神谕文化。安德森博士，出版过诗集，在哥伦比亚大学和纽约协和神学院获得学位。他曾被授予杰出教学奖。该荣誉由加利福尼亚州立大学颁发。
1:49	A: Mr. Krishnamurti, last time we were speaking together we were going into beauty, and just as we came to the end of our conversation, the question of seeing and its relation to the transformation of man, which is not dependent on knowledge or time, was something we promised ourselves we would take up next time we could come together.	安：克里希那穆提先生，在我们上次的谈话中，我们一起探讨了美，而就在我们谈话结束时， “看”的问题出现了，还有它和人类的转变的关系，而这种转变是不依赖于知识和时间的，我们上次说好这次会再一起来探索这个话题。
2:23	K: Sir, what is seeing, and what is listening, and what is learning? I think the three are related to each other: learning, hearing, and seeing. What is seeing, perceiving? Do we actually see, or do we see through a screen, darkly? A screen of prejudice, a screen of our idiosyncrasies, experiences, our wishes, pleasures, fears, and obviously our images about that which we see and about ourselves. We have this screen after screen between us and the object of perception. So do we ever see the thing at all? Or is it: the seeing is coloured by our knowledge - botanical, experience, and so on, so on, so on - or our images, which we have about that thing, or the belief, in which the mind is conditioned and therefore prevents the seeing, or the memories, which the mind has cultivated, prevent the seeing? So seeing may not take place at all. And is it possible for the mind not to have these images, conclusions, beliefs, memories, prejudices, fears, and without having those screens just to look? I think this becomes very important because when there is a seeing - of the thing which I am talking about - when there is a seeing, you can't help but acting. There is no question of postponement.	克：先生，什么是看，什么是聆听，什么是学习？我想这三者是互相关联的：学习、聆听和看。什么是看或者感知？我们真的在看吗？还是我们透过一个屏障在模糊地看？透过偏见的屏障，透过习性、经验的屏障，我们的愿望、快乐、恐惧的屏障，显然还有我们的意象，关于我们看到的东西和我们自己的意象。我们有一个接一个的屏障，挡在我们和观察的对象之间。那么我们究竟有没有看到那个东西呢？还是说：这种看被我们对那件东西抱有的 ——植物学、经验等等等等—— 知识或者意象染了色，还有信念，我们的心智被它制约了，因此阻碍了看，或者是心智培植的记忆阻碍了我们去看？所以看可能根本没有发生。而心智是否可能没有这些意象、结论、信念、记忆、偏见、恐惧，没有那些屏障，而只是去看？我想这一点变得非常重要，因为当看发生时 ——我所说的那种看—— 当看发生时，你会忍不住去行动，没有拖延的问题。
5:20	A: Or succession. K: Succession. A: Or interval.	安：或者衔接的问题。克：衔接。安：或者间隔。
5:24	K: Because when action is based on a belief, a conclusion, an idea, then that action is time-binding. And that action will inevitably bring conflict, and so on, regrets, you know, all the rest of it. So it becomes very important to find out what it is to see, to perceive, what it is to hear. Do I ever hear? When one is married, as a wife, or a husband, or a girl, or a boy, do I ever hear her or him? Or I hear her or him through the image I have built about her or him? Through the screen of irritations, screen of annoyance, domination, you know all that, the dreadful things that come in relationship. So do I ever hear directly what you say without translating, without transforming it, without twisting it? Do I ever hear a bird cry, or a child weep, or a man crying in pain? You follow, sir? Do I ever hear anything?	克：因为当行动是基于一个信念、一个结论、一个想法作出的，那么那个行动就是受制于时间的。那种行动会不可避免地带来冲突，等等，还有后悔，你知道，诸如此类的东西。因此去搞清楚什么是看、感知和聆听就变得非常重要。我可曾聆听过？当我结婚了，作为一个妻子，或丈夫，或女孩，或男孩，我可曾聆听过她或他？或者我只是透过就她或他建立起来的意象去听的？透过恼怒的屏障，烦恼、支配的屏障，你知道所有那一切，那些出现在关系中的可怕的东西。所以我可曾直接听到你所说的话，而没有对它进行诠释、改变和扭曲？我可曾听到鸟儿的叫声或婴儿的哭声，或者一个人痛苦的哭泣？你明白吗，先生？我可曾听到任何东西？
7:08	A: In a conversation we had about a year ago I was very struck by something you said which I regard for myself, personally, immensely valuable. You said that hearing was doing nothing to stop or interfere with seeing. Hearing is doing nothing to stop seeing. That is very remarkable because in conversation the notion of hearing is regarded as intimately associated with command. We will say, won't we, 'Now hear me, hear me out'. And the person thinks that they have to lean forward in the sense of do something voluntarily.	安：大约在一年前我们的一次谈话中，你所说的一些东西对我的触动很深，那对于我个人来说是极其珍贵的。你说聆听就是不要做任何停止或阻碍看的事情。聆听就是不要做任何阻止去看的事情。那让人印象非常深刻，因为在对话中聆听的概念被认为是与命令密切相关的。我们会说：“现在请听我说，认真听我说。”不是吗？听的人就认为自己要身体前倾，好像要主动地去做些什么似的。
8:15	K: Quite, quite.	克：是的，是的。
8:16	A: It's as though they have to screw themselves up into some sort of agonised twist here, not only to please the one who is insisting that they are not hearing, but to get up some hearing on their own.	安：就好像他们必须把自己扭曲成痛苦的一团一样，不仅仅要讨好那些坚持说他们没有在听的人，还要自己主动去努力地听。
8:30	K: Quite. So does a human being, Y or X, listen at all? And what takes place when I do listen? Listen in the sense without any interference, without any interpretation, conclusion, like and dislike - you know, all that takes place - what happens when I actually listen? Sir, look, we said just now, we cannot possibly understand what beauty is, if we don't understand suffering, passion. You hear that statement, what does the mind do? It draws a conclusion. It has formed an idea, verbal idea, hears the words, draws a conclusion, and an idea. A statement of that kind has become an idea. Then we say, 'How am I to carry out that idea?' And that becomes a problem.	克：是的。那么一个人，甲或者乙，究竟有没有在听呢？如果我真的在听的话会发生什么事呢？在没有任何干扰的情况下去听，没有任何解释、结论、喜欢或不喜欢——你知道，所有那些都会发生—— 当我真正去听的时候会发生什么？先生，你看，我们刚刚说了，我们不可能了解什么是美，如果我们不了解什么是苦难和激情的话。你听到了那个表述，心智会做什么？它会得出一个结论。形成一个想法，言语上的想法，听到那些词语，得出一个结论，一个想法。那样的表述变成了一个想法。然后我们说：“我要怎么去执行那个想法？” 然后那就成了一个问题。
10:07	A: Yes, of course it does. Because the idea doesn't conform to nature, and other people have other ideas, and they want to get theirs embodied. Now we are up against a clash. K: Yes. So can I listen to that, can the mind listen to that statement without forming an abstraction? Just listen. I neither agree nor disagree, just actually listen, completely, to that statement.	安：是的，当然会成为问题。因为想法并不符合本性，然后其他人有其他的想法，他们也想让自己的想法得到呈现。现在我们正面对着一个冲突。克：是的。那么我能去听吗？心智可以去听那个表述，却不会形成一个抽象的概念吗？只是听。我不同意也不反对，只是真正地、完全地去听那个表述。
10:49	A: If I am following you, what you are saying is that, were I to listen adequately, - or just let's say listen, because it's not a question of more or less, I am absolutely listening or I am absolutely not listening.	安：如果我没理解错的话，你所说的是，如果我充分地聆听， ——或者说就是聆听，因为这不是一个多或少的问题，我要么就是完全在听要么完全没有听。
11:13	K: That's right, sir. A: Yes. I would not have to contrive an answer.	克：是的，先生。安：是的。我不必设法得出一个答案。
11:22	K: No. You are in it!	克：没错。你就在里面！
11:26	A: Yes. So, like the cat, the action and the seeing are one.	安：是的。因此，就像猫一样，行动和看是一体的。
11:35	K: Yes.	克：是的。
11:36	A: They are one act. K: That's right. So can I listen to a statement and see the truth of the statement, or the falseness of the statement, not in comparison, but in the very statement that you are making. I don't know if I am making myself clear.	安：它们是一个行动。克：对的。所以我能否聆听一段表述并看到表述中的真相，或表述中的虚假，不去比较，而是单纯地去听你所作的表述。我不知道我是否表达清楚了。
12:14	A: Yes, you are making yourself very clear.	安：是的，你表达得非常清楚。
12:17	K: That is, I listen to the statement: beauty can never exist without passion and passion comes from sorrow. I listen to that statement. I don't abstract an idea of it, or make an idea from it. I just listen. What takes place? You may be telling the truth, or you may be making a false statement. I don't know, because I am not going to compare. A: No. You are going to see. K: I just listen. Which means I am giving my total attention - just listen to this, sir, you will see - I give my total attention to what you are saying. Then it doesn't matter what you say or don't say. You see this thing? A: Of course, of course.	克：那就是，我听到一段表述：如果没有激情，美永远无法存在，而激情来自于悲伤。我听到了那段表述，我不从中提取想法，也不从中得出什么概念。我只是听。那会发生什么？你说的可能是真的，或者你的表述也许是假的。我不知道，因为我不去比较。安：是的。你会去看。克：我只是听。那意味着我付出我全部的注意力 ——请听听这一点，先生，你会明白的—— 对于你所说的我付出我全部的注意力。然后你说了或没说什么就不重要了。你看到这一点了吗？安：当然，当然。
13:28	K: What is important is my act of listening! And that act of listening has brought about a miracle of complete freedom from all your statements whether true, false, real, my mind is completely attentive. Attention means no border. The moment I have a border I begin to fight you, agree, disagree. The moment attention has a frontier, then concepts arise. But if I listen to you completely, without a single interference of thought, or ideation, or mentation, just listen to that, the miracle has taken place. Which is: my total attention absolves me, my mind, from all the statements. Therefore my mind is extraordinarily free to act.	克：重要的是我倾听的行为！那个倾听的行为就带来了一个奇迹，从你的所有说法中彻底解脱出来的奇迹，无论你所说的是真的、假的、实在的，我的心都全神贯注。全神贯注意味着没有边界。一有边界我就会开始对抗你，同意或不同意。一旦注意力有了边界，概念就出现了。但是如果我完全地聆听你，没有一丁点儿思想、构思的过程或心理活动的干扰，只是去听，奇迹就发生了。那就是：我的全神贯注将我和我的心智从所有的表述中解放了出来。因此我的心智可以非常自由地去行动。
14:58	A: This has happened for me on this series of our conversations. With each one of these conversations, since this is being video-taped, one begins when one is given the sign, and we're told when the time has elapsed, and one ordinarily, in terms of activity of this sort, is thinking about the production as such. K: Of course.	安：这在我身上发生过，就在我们这一系列的谈话中。就这当中的每一个谈话而言，因为这是要被录下来的，当有人给出提示后我们就开始，然后我们被告知时间过了多少，而像这一类的活动，我们通常会想到节目的制作之类的问题。克：当然。
15:41	A: But one of the things that I have learned is, in our conversations, I've been listening very intensely, and yet I've not had to divide my mind.	安：但我学到的一件事情是，在我们的谈话中，我听得非常仔细，然而我不需要分心去顾及制作的事。
16:02	K: No, sir, that's the... A: And yet this is, if I'm responding correctly to what you have been teaching - well, I know you don't like that word - but to what you have been saying, - I understand why 'teaching' was the wrong word here - there is that very first encounter that the mind engages itself in. K: Yes.	克：是的，先生，那就是……. 安：然而这是，如果我对你所教的有正确的回应 ——哦，我知道你不喜欢“教”这个词—— 应该是对你所说的， ——我明白为什么“教”在这里是一个错误的词—— 那是第一次遇上这样的情况，头脑参与进来了。克：是的。
16:38	A: How can I afford not to make the distinction between paying attention to the aspects of the programme on the production aspect of it, and still engage our discussion?	安：我怎么能够做到不区分对节目方面、制作方面的关注，同时仍然能投入到我们的谈话中？
16:56	K: Quite.	克：是的。
16:58	A: But the more intensely...	安：但越投入…….
17:01	K: You can do it! A: ...the discussion is engaged the more efficiently all the mechanism is accomplished. We don't believe that, in the sense that not only to start with we will not believe it, but we won't even try it out. There is no guarantee from anybody in advance. What we are told rather is this: well, you get used to it. And yet performers have stage-fright all their lives, so, clearly, they don't get used to it.	克：你可以做到！安：…….到谈话中，节目的所有结构完成得越有效率。我们都不相信，也就是说我们不仅一开始就不会相信，我们甚至都不会去尝试。没有任何人能事先给你保证。而是通常会有人这么跟我们说：哦，你会习惯它的。然而演员一生都有舞台恐惧症，所以，显然他们并没有习惯。
17:38	K: No, sir, it is because, sir, don't you think it is our minds are so commercial; unless I get a reward from it, I won't do a thing. And my mind lives in the marketplace - one's mind: I give you this, give me that.	克：是的先生，这是因为，先生，你难道不觉得是因为我们的心智太商业化了；除非我能从中得到回报，不然我不会去做任何事。我的心智活在市场上——人的心智：我给你这个，你给我那个。
18:04	A: And there's an interval in between.	安：在这中间有一种间隔。
18:06	K: You follow? A: Right.	克：你明白吗？安：是的。
18:07	K: We are so used to commercialism, both spiritually and physically, that we don't do anything without a reward, without gaining something, without a purpose. It all must be exchange, not a gift, but exchange: I give you this and you give me that. I torture myself religiously and God must come to me. It's all a matter of... commerce.	克：我们如此习惯于商业化，无论是在精神上还是在生理上，在没有回报的情况下我们什么都不会去做，如果得不到一些东西，如果没有目的，就不会去做。所有的一切都必须用来交换，不是礼物，而是交换：你给我这个然后我给你那个。我虔诚地折磨我自己，然后上帝肯定会来到我身边。这全都是……一种交易。
18:58	A: Fundamentalists have a phrase that comes to mind with respect to their devotional life. They say, 'I am claiming the promises of God'. And this phrase in the context of what you are saying is... my goodness, what that couldn't lead to in the mind.	安：我忽然想到原教旨主义者有一个说法谈到他们奉献式的生活。他们说：“我在索求上帝的承诺。” 而这个说法在你所说的语境中是我的天哪，那个说法在精神领域是不可能实现的。
19:21	K: I know. So you see, when one goes very deeply into this, when action is not based on an idea, formula, belief, then seeing is the doing. Then what is seeing and hearing, which we went into? Then the seeing is complete attention, and the doing is in that attention. And the difficulty is - people will ask, 'How will you maintain that attention?'	克：我知道。因此你看，当一个人非常深入地探究这个问题，当行动不是基于一个想法、公式、信念作出的，那么看就是行动。那么什么是看和听？我们刚才探讨过的。看就是全神贯注，在那关注当中去行动。而困难在于——人们会问： “你要怎么保持那种关注？”
20:05	A: Yes, and they haven't even started.	安：是的，他们甚至还没有开始。
20:08	K: No, how will you maintain it? Which means they are looking for a reward.	克：是的。你要怎么保持它？这意味着他们在寻找奖赏。
20:13	A: Exactly.	安：确实。
20:16	K: I'll practise it, I will do everything to maintain that attention in order to get something in return. Attention is not a result, attention has no cause. What has cause has an effect, and the effect becomes the cause. It's a circle. But attention isn't that. Attention doesn't give you a reward. Attention, on the contrary, there is no reward or punishment because it has no frontier.	克：我会去练习它，我会做所有的一切去保持那种关注，为了得到一些奖励。关注不是一个结果，关注没有原因。有因必有果，然后结果又变成原因。这是一个循环。但关注不是那样的。关注不会给你奖励。关注，正相反，没有奖励或惩罚，因为它是没有边界的。
21:01	A: Yes, this calls up an earlier conversation we had, when you mentioned the word 'virtue' and we explored it in relation to power. K: Yes, exactly, exactly.	安：是的，这让我回想起我们之前的谈话，当时你提到了“美德”这个词，然后我们探讨了它和权力的关系。克：是的，正是如此，没错。
21:09	A: And we are told - what is difficult for a thinking child to believe, given the way a child is brought up, but he's required somehow to make his way through it - that virtue is its own reward. K: Oh, that.	安：然后我们得知 ——有一点对于一个在思考的孩子来说非常难以相信，考虑到现在孩子被带大的方式，但他无论如何都需要通过自己的方式去了解—— 美德自身就是回报。克：哦，那个。
21:28	A: And of course, it is impossible to see what is sound about that under... K: Yes, quite.	安：当然，他不可能看到其中的合理性了，克：是的，没错。
21:36	A: ...the conditioned situation in which he lives.	安：因为他就生活在这种受制约的环境下。
21:39	K: That's just an idea, sir.	克：那只是一个想法，先生。
21:41	A: So now we tuck that back and then later, when we need to remind somebody that they are asking too much of a reward for something good that they did, we tell them, 'Well, have you forgotten that virtue is its own reward?' Yes, yes. It becomes a form of punishment.	安：所以现在我们把那想法收回来，然后，当我们需要去提醒某人对于他们所做的好事他们对回报的要求太多了，我们就告诉他们：“哦，你忘了美德自身就是回报吗？” 是的，是的。这变成了一种惩罚的形式。
22:02	K: Then, you see, seeing and hearing. Then what is learning? Because they are all interrelated: learning, seeing, hearing, and action - all that - it is all in one movement, they are not separate chapters, it's one chapter.	克：于是你明白了看和听。那么什么是学习？因为它们都是互相关联的：学习、看、听和行动——所有这些——都在同一个运动中，它们不是分开的章节，而是同一个章节。
22:27	A: Distinction is no division. K: No. So what is learning? Is learning a process of accumulation? And is learning non-accumulative? We are putting both together. Let's look at it. A: Let's look at it, yes.	安：有区别但没有分裂。克：是的。那么什么是学习？学习是一个积累的过程吗？还是说学习是没有积累的？我们把它们放在一起，一起来看看。安：让我们一起来看看，是的。
23:00	K: One learns a language - Italian, French, whatever it is - and accumulates words, and the irregular verbs, and so on, and then one is able to speak. There is learning a language and being able to speak. Learning how to ride a bicycle, learning how to drive a car, learning how to put together a machine, electronics, and so on, so on. Those are all learning to acquire knowledge in action. And I am asking, is there any other form of learning? That we know, we are familiar with the acquisition of knowledge. Now is there any other kind of learning, learning which is not: accumulated and acting? I don't know...	克：某人学习一门语言——意大利语、法语，无论什么—— 要积累单词，不规则动词等等，然后他就可以说这门语言了。学习一种语言然后能够用它来讲话。学习如何骑自行车，学习如何开车，学习如何组装一台机器、电子原件，等等等等。那些学习都是通过行动去掌握知识。而我问的是，有没有其他形式的学习？之前那些我们都知道，我们非常熟悉获得知识的过程。那么有没有其他种类的学习，这种学习不是积累然后行动？我不知道…….
24:04	A: Yes, when we have accumulated it all, we haven't understood anything on that account. K: Yes. And I learn in order to gain a reward or in order to avoid punishment. I learn a particular job, or particular craft, in order to earn a livelihood. That is absolutely necessary, otherwise... Now I am asking, is there any other kind of learning? That is routine, that is the cultivation of memory, and the memory, which is the result of experience and knowledge that is stored in the brain, and that operates when asked to ride a bicycle, drive a car, and so on. Now, is there any other kind of learning? Or only that? When one says, 'I have learned from my experience', it means I have learned, stored up from that experience certain memories, and those memories either prevent, reward, or punish. So all such forms of learning are mechanical. And education is to train the brain to function in routine, mechanically. Because in that there is great security. Then it is safe. And so, our mind becomes mechanical. My father did this, I do this - you follow? - the whole business is mechanical. Now, is there a non-mechanical brain, at all? A non-utilitarian - in that sense - learning, which has neither future nor past, therefore not time-binding. I don't know if I am making it clear.	安：是的，当我们把知识都积累在一起，在那种情况下我们并没有懂得任何东西。克：是的。我学习是为了得到奖励或者为了避免惩罚。我学会了一项特定的工作，或一门特定的手艺，是为了谋生。那是绝对必要的，不然……. 现在我问，有没有其他形式的学习？刚才说的是例行公事，那是培养记忆，而记忆是经验和知识的结果，储存在大脑里然后运作，当需要去骑自行车、开车等等时它会发挥作用。那么，有其他类型的学习吗？或者只有那种学习？当一个人说：“我从我的经验里学到了”，那意味着我从经验中学到了、储存了某些记忆，而那些记忆，要么是阻碍，要么是奖赏或者惩罚。因此所有这些形式的学习都是机械的。而教育就是训练大脑在例行公事中机械化地运转。因为那里面有巨大的安全感。然后它就安全了。因此，我们的心智变得机械。我的爸爸就是这样做的，我也这样做——你明白吗？—— 整个事情都是机械的。那么，究竟是否存在一个不机械的心智？一种没有功利主义的——在那个意义上——学习，它既没有未来也没有过去，因此不受制于时间。我不知道我是否说清楚了。
27:03	A: Don't we sometimes say 'I have learned from experience' when we wish to convey something that isn't well conveyed by that expression. We wish to convey an insight that we don't feel can be, in a strict sense, dated.	安：我们不是有时候会说： “我从经验中学到了”，当我们想去传达一些东西时，那种表达却不能很好地传达那个意思。我们希望传达一种洞察，而那种洞察我们感觉无法从严格的意义上记载下来。
27:24	K: You see, sir, do we learn anything from experience? We have had, since history began, written history, 5000 wars. I read it somewhere - 5000 wars. Killing, killing, killing, maiming. And have we learned anything? Have we learned anything from sorrow? Man has suffered. Have we learned anything from the experience of the agony of uncertainty, and all the rest of it? So when we say we have learned, I question it, you follow? It seems such a terrible thing to say 'I have learned from experience'. You have learned nothing! Except in the field of knowledge. I don't know... A: Yes. May I say something here that just passed in recall. We were talking about sorrow before, and I was thinking of a statement of St. Paul's in his Letter to the Romans, where there is a very unusual sequence of words where he says, 'We rejoice in tribulations'. Now some people have thought he must have been a masochist in making such a statement; but that certainly seems to me bizarre. We rejoice in tribulations. And then he says, 'because tribulation works...' - and in the Greek this means that there is energy involved - works patience'. Patience - experience. Now that's a very unusual order, because we usually think that if we have enough experience we'll learn to be patient. And he completely stands that on its head, here. And in the context of what you are saying that order of his words makes eminent sense. Please go on. K: No, no.	克：你瞧，先生，我们从经验中学到任何东西了吗？我们曾经有过，自有史以来，记载下来的历史，有过5000场战争。我在某个地方读到过——5000场战争。杀戮、杀戮、杀戮，残害。而我们学到什么了吗？我们从悲伤中学到过什么吗？人类一直在受苦。我们从不确定所带来的痛苦经验以及诸如此类的事情中学到过什么吗？所以当我们说我们学到了，我会质疑，你明白吗？ “我从经验中学到了”，这么说看起来是一件如此恐怖的事，你什么都没学到！除了在知识的领域中。我不知道……. 安：是的。我能在这里讲一件事情吗，我刚刚回想起来的。我们之前谈到悲伤，我当时想到圣·保罗的一句话，在他写给罗马人的信里，有一句排列顺序非常奇特的话，他说：“我们在苦难中欢庆。” 现在一些人认为他肯定是一个受虐狂，竟然说这样的话；但那在我看来显得非常古怪。我们在苦难中欢庆。然后他说：“因为苦难能让…….” ——而在希腊语中这意味着能量也包含在内—— “耐心运作”。耐心——经验。而那是一种非常不寻常的顺序，因为我们通常认为如果我们有足够的经验，我们就会学会变得耐心。而他在这里把顺序完全颠倒过来了。而在你所说的内容中，他所说的话的顺序具有非凡的意义。请继续。克：是的，是的。
29:46	A: Yes, that's really very remarkable.	安：是的，那真的非同寻常。
29:51	K: You see, sir, that's why our education, our civilisation, all the things about us, has made our mind so mechanical - repetitive reactions, repetitive demands, repetitive pursuits. The same thing being repeated year after year, for thousands of years: my country, your country, I kill you and you kill me. You follow, sir? The whole thing is mechanical. Now, that means the mind can never be free. Thought is never free, thought is always old. There's no new thought.	克：你知道先生，那就是为什么我们的教育，我们的文明，我们周围的一切，让我们的心智变得如此机械 ——重复的反应，重复的需求，重复的追求。同样的东西一年又一年地重复，几千年来都是这样：我的国家，你的国家，我杀你，你杀我。你明白吗先生？整个事情都是机械化的。那就意味着心智永远不能自由。思想从来都不是自由的，思想总是陈旧的。没有新的思想可言。
30:51	A: No. It is very curious in relation to a movement within the field of religion which called itself 'New Thought'. Yes, I was laughing at the irony of it. Yes, goodness me. Some persons I imagine would object to the notion that we don't learn from experience in terms of the succession of wars, because wars tend to happen sequentially, generation to generation, and you have to grow up. But that is not true, because more than one war will happen very often in the same generation...	安：是的。非常奇怪的是在宗教领域里有一种运动称自己为“新思潮”。是的，我以前就在嘲笑这件讽刺的事情。是的，我的天哪。我想有些人会反对 “我们从经验中什么都学不到”这个说法，就一连串的战争这件事而言，因为战争都是按先后次序发生的，从一代人到一代人，而你必定会成长。但那不是真的，因为经常不止一场战争会在同一代发生…….
31:31	K: What are they talking about? Two wars.	克：他们在谈论什么？两场战争。
31:34	A: Yes, there hasn't been anything learned at all. It's a terrifying thing to hear someone just come out and say: nobody learns anything from experience.	安：是啊，一点东西都没有学到。这十分可怕，听到有人就这样跳出来说：没有人能从经验中学到任何东西。
31:49	K: No, the word 'experience' also means to go through.	克：没错，“经验”这个词也意味着经过。
31:52	A: Yes, yes.	安：是的，是的。
31:53	K: But you never go through. A: That's exactly right.	克：但你从来都未曾经过。安：确实如此。
31:57	K: You always stop in the middle. Or you never begin. A: Right. It means, if I'm remembering correctly, in terms of its radical root, it means to test, to put to test... Well, to put a thing to the test and behave correctly while that's going on, you certainly have to see, you just have to look, don't you? K: Of course. So as our civilisation, our culture, our education has brought about a mind that is becoming more and more mechanical, and therefore time-binding, and therefore never a sense of freedom. Freedom then becomes an idea, you play around philosophically, but it has no meaning. But a man who says, 'Now, I want to find out, I want to really go into this and discover if there is freedom'. Then he has to understand the limits of knowledge, where knowledge ends, or rather the ending of knowledge and the beginning of something totally new. I don't know if I am conveying anything.	克：你总是停在中间。或者你从来没有开始。安：对的。它的意思是，如果我没有记错的话，那个词最根本的词根义，意思是去试验，投入试验……. 把一个东西拿出来试验，并在事情进行过程中正确地行动，你当然要去看，你只需要去看，不是吗？克：当然。所以，由于我们的文明、我们的文化和我们的教育所造就的心智越来越机械化，因而受制于时间，所以从来没有一丝自由。自由于是变成了一个概念，你在哲学上把玩它，但它没有了意义。但是有个人说：“现在我想弄清真相，我想真正去探究这个问题，去发现自由是否存在。” 那么他就必须去了解知识的局限，知识终结于何处，或者更确切地说是了解知识的终结，以及完全崭新的东西的开始。我不知道我是不是表达清楚了。
33:32	A: You are. Oh yes, yes.	安：很清楚，噢，是的，是的。
33:34	K: That is, sir, what is learning? If it is not mechanical, then what is learning? Is there a learning at all, learning about what? I learn how to go to the moon, how to put up this, that, and drive, and so on. In that field only there is learning. Is there a learning in any other field, psychologically, spiritually? Can the mind learn about what they call God?	克：也就是说，先生，什么是学习？如果它不是机械化的，那么什么是学习？究竟存在学习吗？学什么？我学习如何登陆月球，如何建造这个、那个，还有驾驶，等等。只有在那个领域中才有学习。在其他领域存在学习吗？在心理上？精神上？心智能了解他们所谓的上帝吗？
34:21	A: If in learning, in the sense that you have asked this question... - no, I must rephrase that. Stop this 'ifing' - When one does what I am about to say, when one learns about God, or going to the moon, in terms of the question you have asked, he can't be doing what you are pointing to, if this is something added on to the list.	安：如果在学习中，就你刚才所问的问题……. ——不是的，我必须改变我的说法。停止说"如果，正在"—— 当一个人去做我要说的事情，当一个人要了解上帝，或者登陆月球，那么从你所提问题的角度来看，他所做的不可能是你所指的那种学习，如果这些事情只是添加到他单子上的一项内容而已。
34:52	K: Sir, it is so clear. A: Yes, it is.	克：先生，这点很清楚。安：是的，确实是。
34:56	K: I learn a language, ride a bicycle, drive a car, put a machine together. That's essential. Now I want to learn about God - just listen to this. The god is my making. God hasn't made me in his image. I have made him in my image. Now I am going to learn about him.	克：我学习一门语言，骑自行车，开车，将机器组装在一起。那是必要的。现在我想去了解上帝——你听听这个说法。上帝是我造出来的。上帝没有根据他的形象来制造我，而是我根据我的形象制造了上帝。而现在我要去了解他。
35:26	A: Yes, I am going to talk to myself.	安：是的，我只是在跟我自己说话。
35:28	K: Learn about the image which I have built about Christ, Buddha, whatever it is. The image I have built. So I am learning what? A: To talk about talk. Yes.	克：了解我所塑造的形象，关于基督、佛陀等等所塑造的形象。我所塑造的形象。所以我在学习什么呢？安：无谓地兜圈子。是的。
35:43	K: Learning about the image which I have built.	克：学习我所塑造的意象。
35:47	A: That's right.	安：是的。
35:48	K: Therefore is there any other kind of learning except mechanical learning? I don't know if I.. You understand my question? A: Yes, I do. Yes, I do, I certainly do.	克：那么有没有其他类型的学习，除了机械化的学习外？我不是知道我是否……. 你理解我的问题吗？安：是的，我理解。是的，我能理解，我当然理解。
36:05	K: So, there is only learning the mechanical process of life. There is no other learning. See what that means, sir.	克：因此，只存在对机械的生活过程的了解这种学习，没有其他的学习。看看这意味着什么，先生。
36:26	A: It means freedom. K: I can learn about myself. Myself is known. Known, in the sense - I may not know it, but I can know, by looking at myself, I can know myself. So, myself is the accumulated knowledge of the past. The 'me' who says: I am greedy, I am envious, I am successful, I am frightened, I have betrayed, I have regret - all that is the 'me', including the soul, which I have invented in the 'me', or the Brahman, the Atman - it's all 'me', still. The 'me' has created the image of God, and I am going to learn about God, which has no meaning! So if there is - when there is, no, I am going to use the word 'if' - if there is no other learning, what takes place? You understand? The mind is used in the acquisition of knowledge in matter - to put it differently. In mechanical things. And when the mind is employed there, are there any other processes of learning? Which means: psychologically, inwardly, is there? The inward is the invention of thought as opposed to the outer. I don't know if you see. If I have understood the outer, I have understood the inner. Because the inner has created the outer. The outer in the sense the structure of society, the religious sanctions, all that is invented or put together by thought: the Jesuses, the Christ, the Buddhas - all that. And what is there to learn?	安：那意味着自由。克：我可以了解我自己。我自己是已知的。已知的，也就是说——我可能不知道，但我可以知道，通过看我自己，我可以了解我自己。所以，我自己是以往知识的累积。那个“我”说：我贪婪，我嫉妒，我很成功，我很害怕，我背叛过，我后悔过 ——那所有的一切都是“我”，包括灵魂，那是我在“我”身上发明的，还有婆罗门或者阿特曼——都是“我”，一样的。 “我”创造了上帝的形象，然后我要去了解上帝，那完全没有意义！因此如果存在——当存在，不，我要用“如果”这个词—— 如果没有其他的学习，那会发生什么？你明白吗？头脑用来获取物质方面的知识 ——换个说法就是用来获取机械类事物的知识。而当头脑被用在那个领域时，还存在任何其他的学习过程吗？也就是说：从心理上，从内在，存在学习吗？内在是由思想的发明，与外在相对应。我不知道你是不是明白了。如果我了解了外在，我就了解了内在，因为是内在创造了外在。外在指的是社会结构、宗教约束，所有那些都是思想发明或堆砌起来的：各种耶稣、基督、佛陀——所有的。那有什么可学的？
38:53	A: In listening to you...	安：在听你讲的时候…….
38:55	K: See the beauty of what is coming out?	克：看到正在出现的那种美了吗？
38:57	A: Oh yes, yes, it goes back to your remark about vedanta as the end of knowledge.	安：噢，是的，是的。这就回到了你对吠檀多的评论：知识的终结。
39:09	K: That's what I was told.	克：别人是这么告诉我的。
39:11	A: Yes. The interesting thing to me about the Sanskrit construction is that, unless I am mistaken, it doesn't mean the end of it as a terminus, as a term, because that would simply start a new series. It is the consummation of it, which is the total end, in the sense that a totally new beginning is made at that very point.	安：是的。我觉得有趣的是，那个梵语的说法，除非我搞错了，它所说的终结并不意味着就是一个终点、一个期限，因为那仅仅是一个新系列的开始。那是知识的圆满，也就是完全的结束，也就是说，在那个点上一个完全崭新的开始就出现。
39:40	K: That means, sir, I know, the mind knows the activity of the known.	克：那意味着，先生，我知道，心智了解了已知的活动。
39:48	A: That's right, yes. That's the consummation of knowledge.	安：是的，正是这样。那就是知识的圆满。
39:53	K: Of knowledge. Now what is the state of the mind, that is free from that and yet functions in knowledge?	克：知识的圆满。那么，从知识中解脱出来但依然在知识中运作的心智是怎样的状态呢？
40:03	A: And yet functions in it.	安：依然在知识中运作。
40:05	K: You follow? A: Yes, yes. It is seeing perfectly.	克：你明白吗？安：是的，是的。那是完美地看到。
40:12	K: Do go into it, you will see very strange things take place. Is this possible, first? You understand, sir? Because the brain functions mechanically, it wants security, otherwise it can't function. If we hadn't security, we wouldn't be here sitting together. Because we have security, we can have a dialogue. The brain can only function in complete security. Whether that security it finds in a neurotic belief - all beliefs and all ideas are neurotic in that sense - so it finds it somewhere: in accepting nationality as the highest form of good, success is the highest virtue. It finds belief, security there. Now, you are asking the brain, which has become mechanical, trained for centuries, to see the other field, which is not mechanical. Is there another field?	克：请深入探究这一点，你会看到，十分奇怪的事情发生了。首先那是可能的吗？你明白吗，先生？因为心智是很机械地运作的，它想要安全，否则它就不能运转。如果我们不安全，我们就不会一起坐在这里。因为我们安全，所以我们可以谈话。大脑只能在彻底的安全下运转。即使那种安全是从一种神经质的信念中找到的 ——从那个意义上说，所有的信仰和观念都是神经质的—— 所以心智在某些地方找到了安全：接受国家主义是正义的最高形式，成功是最高的美德。心智在那里找到了信念、安全。现在你让那个大脑，通过几个世纪的训练，已变得机械的大脑，去看另一个不机械的领域。有另一个领域吗？
41:48	A: No.	安：没有。
41:49	K: You follow the question? A: Yes, I do. Yes, that's what's so utterly devastating.	克：你能跟上这个问题吗？安：是的，我能。是的，那完全是灾难性的。
41:56	K: Is there - wait, wait - is there another field? Now, unless the brain and the mind understands the whole field - not field - understands the movement of knowledge, it is a movement. A: It is a movement, yes.	克：是否存在——等等，等等——是否存在另一个领域？你瞧，除非大脑和心智了解了整个领域——不是领域—— 了解了知识的运动，它是一种运动。安：它是一种运动，对的。
42:15	K: It is not just static, you are adding, taking away, and so on. Unless it understands all that, it cannot possibly ask that other question.	克：它不是静止的，你在添加、减少等等。除非心智了解了那一切，否则它不可能问另一个问题。
42:26	A: Exactly. Exactly.	安：确实如此，确实如此。
42:28	K: And when it does ask that question, what takes place? Sir, this is real meditation, you know.	克：而当心智确实问了那个问题时，会发生什么呢？先生，你知道，这是真正的冥想。
42:42	A: This is, yes, yes.	安：是的，是的。
42:44	K: Which we will go into another time. So you see, that's what it means. One is always listening with knowledge, seeing with knowledge.	克：改天我们会探讨这个问题。所以你看，那就是它真正的含义。一个人总是带着知识去听，带着知识去看。
43:04	A: This is the seeing through a glass darkly. K: Darkly. Now is there a listening out of silence? And that is attention. And that is not time-binding, because in that silence I don't want anything. It isn't that I am going to learn about myself. It isn't that I am going to be punished, rewarded. In that absolute silence I listen.	安：这是透过一块玻璃模糊地去看。克：模糊地。那么存在从寂静中聆听吗？而那就是关注。那是不受制于时间的，因为在那寂静中我不想要任何东西。不是说我打算去了解我自己。也不是说我会得到惩罚或奖励。在那绝对的寂静中，我聆听。
43:44	A: The wonder of the whole thing is that it isn't something that is done, this meditation, in succession.	安：整个事情最不可思议的是那不是一件已完成的事，这冥想，是连续不断的。
43:55	K: Sir, when we talk about meditation, we will have to go very deeply into that, because they have destroyed that word! These shoddy little men coming from India or anywhere, they have destroyed that thing.	克：先生，当我们说到冥想，我们必须非常深入地探讨它，因为，人们已经毁掉了那个词！这些从印度或其他地方来的虚假卑劣的人，他们毁掉了这件事情。
44:10	A: I heard the other day about someone who was learning transcendental meditation.	安：有一天我听说有人在学习超验冥想。
44:16	K: Oh, learning!	克：噢，学习！
44:20	A: They had to do it at 3 o'clock in the afternoon.	安：他们必须在下午三点钟做。
44:24	K: Pay 35 dollars or 100 dollars to learn that. It's so sacrilegious.	克：付出35美元或100美元去学那个。那真是亵渎。
44:33	A: That is, at 3 o'clock in the afternoon was judgement day. If you didn't do it according to your schedule, then the world has obviously come to an end. But ostensibly you are doing it to get free of that. Do go ahead.	安：也就是说，下午三点是一个审判的时刻。如果你没有按日程表去做，显然世界末日就到来了。但为了逃脱你表面上会那样做。请继续。
44:52	K: So you see, sir, that's what takes place. We began this morning about beauty, then passion, then suffering, then action. Action based on idea is inaction. It sounds monstrous, but there it is. And from that we said: what is seeing and what is hearing? The seeing and the listening has become mechanical. We never see anything new. Even the flower is never new, which has blossomed over night. We say, 'Yes, that's the rose, I have been expecting it, it has come out now, how beautiful'. It's always from the known to the known. A movement in time, and therefore time-binding, and therefore never free. And yet we are talking about freedom, you know, philosophy, the lectures on freedom, and so on, so on. And the communists call it a bourgeois thing, which it is, in the sense, when you limit it to knowledge, it is foolish to talk about freedom. But there is a freedom when you understand the whole movement of knowledge. So can you observe out of silence, and observe and act in the field of knowledge, so both together in harmony?	克：所以你看先生，那就是正在发生的事。今天早上我们从美开始，然后探讨了激情，然后是苦难，然后是行动。基于想法的行动是不行动。那听起来可怕，但就是那样的。然后在那基础上我们问：“什么是看？什么是听？” 看和听已经变得机械化了。我们从来都没有看到过新东西。甚至花朵也从来不是新的，即使它是一夜之间绽放开来的。我们说：“是的，那是玫瑰，我一直在期待它的绽放，现在它绽放了，多么美丽啊。” 总是从已知到已知，那是时间中的活动，因此受制于时间，所以从来都不是自由的。然而我们却对自由高谈阔论，你知道，在哲学上，那些关于自由的讲座，等等等等。然后共产主义者把它叫作一件资产阶级的事情，而它确实就是，也就是说，当你把自由仅仅局限于知识，谈论自由是很愚蠢的事。但是，当你了解了知识的全部活动时，是存在一种自由的。所以，你能否从寂静中观察，同时在知识的领域中观察和行动，于是这两者能和谐共存？
46:51	A: Seeing then is not scheduled. Yes, of course, of course. I was just thinking about, I suppose, you would say the classical definition of freedom, in terms of the career of knowledge, would be that it is a property of action, a property or quality of action. For general uses either word would do, property or quality. And it occurred to me, in the context of what we have been saying, what a horror that one could read that statement and not let it disclose itself to you.	安：那时的“看”就不是被事先安排的。是的，当然如此，当然如此。我刚才在想，我猜想，你会说传统上对自由的定义，就知识的范畴而言，会说自由是行动的一个特性，行动的一个特性或品质。通常来说哪一个词都行，特性或品质。而我忽然想到，在我们刚才所说内容的背景下，如果一个人读到刚才你所说的话，但不让它的含义自己呈现出来，那会有多么可怕。
47:58	K: Quite. A: If it disclosed itself to you, you would be up against it, you'd have to be serious. If you were a philosophy student and you read that, and that thing began to operate in you, you'd say, 'I've got to get this settled before I go on. Maybe I'll never graduate, that's not important'.	克：没错。安：如果它把含义呈现给你，你就要面对它，你就必须非常认真。如果你是一个哲学学生，然后你读到那些，那个东西就会开始在你身上起作用，你会说：“在继续前我必须先去解决它。可能我永远都不能毕业，那不重要。”
48:20	K: That's not important, quite right. And I was thinking, in the West as well as in the East, you have to go to the factory, or the office, every day of your life. Get up at 8 o'clock, 6 o'clock, drive, walk, work, work, work, for fifty years, routine, and get kicked about, insulted, worship success. Again - repetition. And occasionally talk about God, if it is convenient, and so on, so on. That is a monstrous life! And that is what we are educating our children for.	克：那不重要，十分正确。我刚才在想，在西方和东方，你得去工厂或办公室上班，你生命中的每一天都是如此。在早上8点或6点起床，开车，走路，工作，工作，工作，50年都如此，例行公事，然后被解雇，被侮辱，崇拜成功。然后再来一次——重复。如果方便的话，时不时谈一下上帝，等等，等等。那是一种可怕的生活！而那就是我们正在教小孩子学的东西。
49:15	A: That's the real living death.	安：那是真正的人间地狱。
49:20	K: And nobody says, for God's sake, let's look at all this anew. Let's wipe our eyes clear of the past and look at what we are doing, give attention, care what we are doing.	克：然而没有人说，看在老天的份上，让我们重新看待这一切。让我们从我们的眼睛中抹掉过去，看看我们正在做什么，付出注意力，关心我们正在做的事情。
49:37	A: Now we have this question instead: what shall we do about it? Yes, that's the question. And then that becomes the next thing done that is added to the list. K: It is a continuity of the past, in a different form. A: And the chain is endlessly linked, linked, linked, linked.	安：取而代之的是，我们有了这样的问题：对此我们该怎么办？是的，就是这个问题。然后那就变成了下一件要去完成的添加到清单上的事。克：那是过去的延续，只是形式不同。安：而这链条无穷无尽地一环又一环地链接在一起。
49:54	K: The cause becoming the effect and the effect becoming the cause. So it's a very serious thing when we talk about all this, because life becomes dreadfully serious. And it's only this serious person that lives, not those people who seek entertainment, religious or otherwise.	克：原因成为结果，而结果又变成原因。所以我们探讨这些，是一件非常严肃的事情，因为生命变得极其严肃。而只有这样认真的人才算活着，而不是那些寻求宗教或非宗教娱乐的人。
50:20	A: I had a very interesting occasion to understand what you are saying in class yesterday. I was trying to assist the students to see that the classical understanding of the four causes in operation is that they are non-temporarily related. And I said, when the potter puts his hand to the clay, the hand touching the clay is not responded to by the clay after the hand has touched it. And one person, who was visiting the class, this person was a well-educated person and a professor, and this struck him as maybe not so, and I could tell by the expression on the face that there was a little anguish here, so I said, 'Well, my radar says that there is some difficulty going on, what's the matter?' 'Well, it seems like there is a time interval'. So I asked him to pick something up that was on the desk. And I said, 'Touch it with your finger and tell me, at the moment of the touching with the finger, whether the thing reacts to the finger after it is touched. Now do it'. Well, even to ask somebody to apply a practical test like that with respect to a datum of knowledge like the four causes are... la,la,la, is to interrupt the process of education as we have known it. Because you teach a student about the four causes and he thinks about them, he never goes out and looks at things, or does anything about it. And so we were picking stuff up in class, and we were doing this until finally it seemed like a revelation. 'Watch' has been said - in the classical teaching of it, which, of course, in modern society is rejected - happens to be the case. And I said, this has to be seen, watched. This is what you mean. K: Yes, sir. Seeing, of course. A: Of course, of course. But we are back to that step there: why was that person and so many other students following suit, anguished at the point where the practical issue arose? There was a feeling, I suppose, that they were on a cliff.	安：昨天在课堂上有一个非常有趣的场合，我明白了你所说的意思。我当时正尝试协助学生去了解对“四因作用”的经典解释：它们之间并没有时间上的关系。然后我说，当制陶者把他的手放在粘土上，手接触着粘土，在手碰到粘土后，粘土对手并没有作出反应。这时有一个人，他正参观课堂，这是一个受过良好教育的人，是一个教授，而这对他产生了冲击，也可能没有，但我能从他脸上的表情看到他有一点痛苦，因此我说， “瞧，我的雷达说你碰到了一些困难，这是怎么回事？” “哦，这里似乎存在一个时间上的间隔。” 于是我叫他从桌子上拿起一样东西。然后我说：“用手指触碰它，然后告诉我，在用手指碰到它的那一刻，在触碰之后那东西是否对手指作出了反应。现在去做吧。” 你瞧，哪怕叫某个人去进行那样一个实际的测试，而且是针对某个知识的，比如“四因说”是如此这般依然是打断了我们所熟知的教育过程。因为你教一个学生“四因说”，然后他思考那些东西，但他从来都不走出去观察事物，或者对此去做任何尝试。所以我们在课堂里尝试着拿起东西，我们一直在这么做，直到最后看起来像是有了某种启发。 “观察”在经典的教学中是被提倡的， ——当然，这在现代社会中是不被接受的—— 但实际情况恰恰就是如此。然后我说，这需要被看到，被观察。这就是你说的意思。克：是的，先生。看，这是当然。安：当然，当然。但我们回到那个场景：为什么那个人和那么多照着我说的去做的学生，当实际的问题出现时，那一刻他们会觉得痛苦？我猜是有一种感觉，好像他们站在了悬崖上。
53:33	K: Quite, quite.	克：对的，对的。
53:35	A: And naturally alertness was required. But alertness registers that we are on a cliff, so therefore the best thing to do is to turn around and run back. Yes, yes.	安：很自然这里就需要有警觉性。但警觉性发现我们站在悬崖边，因此这时最好转身跑掉。是的，是的。
53:58	K: Sir, I think, you see, we are so caught up in words. To us the word is not the thing. The description is not the described. To us the description is all that matters, because we are slave to words.	克：先生，我想，你知道，我们是那么深陷于词语之中。对于我们，词语并不是事物本身。描述并非被描述之物。然而对我们来说描述就是唯一重要的东西，因为我们是文字的奴隶。
54:26	A: And to ritual.	安：还是仪式的奴隶。
54:28	K: Ritual and all the rest of it. So when you say, look, the thing matters more than the word, and then they say, 'How am I to get rid of the word, how am I to communicate, if I have no word?' You see how they have gone off? They are not concerned with the thing, but with the word.	克：仪式和诸如此类的一切。所以当你说，看，那个真实的东西比词语更重要，然后他们说：“我要怎样摆脱词语，我要怎样沟通，如果我没有词语的话？” 你看到他们是怎么跑掉的吗？他们不关心那个东西本身，只关心词语。
54:52	A: Yes.	安：是的。
54:53	K: And the door is not the word. So when we are caught up in words, the word 'door' becomes extraordinarily important, and not the door.	克：但门不是“门”那个词。所以当我们陷在词语中， “门”这个词就变得极其重要，而不是门本身。
55:13	A: And I don't really need to come to terms with the door, I say to myself, because I have the word. I have it all.	安：我根本不需要真正和门打交道，我跟自己说，因为我有词语，我就有了一切。
55:23	K: So education has done this. A great part of this education is the acceptance of words as an abstraction from the fact, from the 'what is'. All philosophies are based on that: theorise, theorise, theorise, endlessly, how one should live. And the philosopher himself doesn't live.	克：所以是教育造成了这些。如今教育中大部分的内容就是接受词语，作为从事实、从“现状”中抽象出来的概念。所有的哲学都基于这个：理论化，理论化，理论化，没完没了，一个人应该如何生活。但哲学家自己都不在生活。
55:57	A: Yes, I know. K: You see this all over.	安：是的，我知道。克：你能看到这种情况到处都是。
56:00	A: Especially some philosophers that have seemed to me quite bizarre in this respect. I have asked my colleagues from time to time, 'If you believe that stuff, why don't you do it?' And they look at me as though I am out of my mind, as though nobody would really seriously ask that question.	安：特别是有些哲学家，在我看来在这方面非常奇怪。我时不时会问我的同事： “如果你相信那些东西，为什么你不去做？” 然后他们看着我，好像我疯了一样，好像没有人会非常认真地问那个问题。
56:21	K: Quite, quite. A: But if you can't ask that question, what question is worth asking? K: Quite right.	克：没错，是的。安：但如果你不能问那个问题，什么问题是值得问的呢？克：是的，是的。
56:28	A: I was thinking about that marvellous story you told in our previous conversation about the monkey, while you were speaking about this, when she shook hands with you, nobody had told her how to shake hands.	安：我刚才在想你讲的那个奇妙的故事，你在我们之前的对话中说到了那只猴子，你说到这个的时候，当她和你握手，没有任何人告诉她如何握手。
56:48	K: No, it stretched out. A: Yes.	克：是的，它只是伸出手。安：是的。
56:51	K: And I took it.	克：然后我握住它。
56:53	A: It wasn't something that she was taught how to do through a verbal communication, it was the appropriate thing at the time. K: At the time, yes.	安：并没有什么人通过语言的沟通教导它如何去做，它只是在那个时候做了恰当的事。克：在那个时候，是的。
57:02	A: Without anyone measuring its appropriateness.	安：没有任何人去衡量其恰当性。
57:05	K: Quite.	克：没错。
57:07	A: Isn't that something? Yes, I can't tell you how grateful I am to have been able to share this with you. I have seen, in respect to my own activity as a teacher, where I must perform therapy even on my language.	安：这不是很了不起吗？是的，我都没法告诉你能够和你分享这些我有多么感激。我发现，就我自己的教师工作而言，我甚至必须医治自己的用语。
57:45	K: Quite, quite.	克：是的，是的。
57:46	A: So that I don't give the student an occasion for thinking that I am simply adding to this endless chain, link after link after link. There are two therapies here then: that's the therapy that relates to words and that flows out naturally. It is not a contrivance, it flows out naturally, if I've understood you correctly, from the therapy within. Now this relates directly, as you were saying earlier, to meditation. Are we ready, do you think...	安：这样就不会让学生有机会认为我只是单纯地在这无穷无尽的链条上添加，一环接着一环再接着一环。那么这里有两种治疗的方法：一种是和词语有关的，另一种是自然流出的。那不是一项发明，如果我没有理解错的话，它从内在的疗愈中自然地流出。而这是直接与冥想相关的，就像你之前说的那样。我们是否准备好，你是不是认为…….
58:32	K: I think that's too complicated. A: I don't mean right now. But maybe in one of our next conversations.	克：我想那个问题太复杂了。安：我不是说现在。但也许在我们下一次的谈话中。
58:39	K: Oh yes, we must discuss several things yet, sir. A: Yes.	克：噢，是的，但我们还有几件事情要谈，先生。安：是的。
58:42	K: What is love, what is death, what is meditation, what is the whole movement of living. We've got a great deal to do.	克：什么是爱，什么是死亡，什么是冥想，什么是生活的整体运动。我们还有很多事情要谈。
58:49	A: Oh, I do look forward to that very much. Splendid. Right.	安：噢，我确实非常期待。太棒了，好的。