克里希那穆提 - 受伤及伤害他人

Krishnamurti Subtitles

SD74CA11 - 受伤及伤害他人
与艾伦·W·安德森博士的第十一次对话
美国，加利福尼亚，圣地亚哥
1974年2月25日

0:37	Krishnamurti in Dialogue with Dr. Allan W. Anderson	克里希那穆提与艾伦·W·安德森博士的对话
0:41	J. Krishnamurti was born in South India and educated in England. For the past 40 years he has been speaking in the United States, Europe, India, Australia, and other parts of the world. From the outset of his life's work he repudiated all connections with organised religions and ideologies and said that his only concern was to set man absolutely unconditionally free. He is the author of many books, among them The Awakening of Intelligence, The Urgency of Change, Freedom From the Known, and The Flight of the Eagle. This is one of a series of dialogues between Krishnamurti and Dr. Allan W. Anderson, who is professor of religious studies at San Diego State University where he teaches Indian and Chinese scriptures and the oracular tradition. Dr. Anderson, a published poet, received his degree from Columbia University and the Union Theological Seminary. He has been honoured with the distinguished Teaching Award from the California State University.	J·克里希那穆提出生于南印度，之后在英国接受教育。在过去的40年里，他曾在美国、欧洲、印度、澳大利亚和世界其他地方演讲。从他毕生工作的一开始，他就和所有组织化的宗教和意识形态断绝了关系，然后宣称他唯一关心的是让人类彻底地、无条件地自由。他出版了很多著作，其中包括：《智慧的觉醒》、《转变的紧迫性》、《从已知中解脱》和《鹰的翱翔》。这是克里希那穆提和艾伦·W·安德森博士的系列对话之一。安德森博士是宗教学教授，任教于圣地亚哥州立大学，教授印度与中国的经典，以及传统神谕文化。安德森博士出版过诗作，在哥伦比亚大学和纽约协和神学院获得学位。他也曾获得过加利福尼亚州立大学所颁发的杰出教育奖。
1:48	A: Mr. Krishnamurti, during our conversations one thing has emerged for me, with, I'd say, an arresting force. That is, on the one hand, we have been talking about thought and knowledge in terms of a dysfunctional relationship to it, but never once have you said that we should get rid of thought, and you have never said that knowledge as such, in itself, has something profoundly the matter with it. Therefore the relationship between intelligence and thought arises, and the question of what seems to be that which maintains a creative relationship between intelligence and thought, perhaps some primordial activity which abides. And in thinking on this I wondered whether you would agree that perhaps in the history of human existence the concept of God has been generated out of a relationship to this abiding activity, which concept has been very badly abused. And it raises the whole question of the phenomenon of religion itself. I wondered if we might discuss that today? K: Yes, sir. You know, a word like 'religion', 'love', or 'God', has almost lost all its meaning. They have abused these words so enormously, and religion has become a vast superstition, a great propaganda, incredible beliefs and superstitions, worship of images made by the hand or by the mind. So when we talk about religion, I would like, if I may, to be quite clear that we are both of us using the word 'religion' in the real sense of that word, not either in the Christian, or the Hindu, or the Muslim, or the Buddhist, or all the stupid things that are going on in this country in the name of religion. I think the word 'religion' means gathering together all energy, at all levels - physical, moral, spiritual - at all levels, gathering all this energy which will bring about a great attention. And in that attention there is no frontier, and then from there move. To me that is the meaning of that word: the gathering of total energy to understand what thought cannot possibly capture. Thought is never new, never free, and therefore it is always conditioned and fragmentary, and so on - which we discussed. So religion is not a thing put together by thought, or by fear, or by the pursuit of satisfaction and pleasure, but something totally beyond all this, which isn't romanticism, speculative belief, or sentimentality. And I think, if we could keep to that, to the meaning of that word, putting aside all the superstitious nonsense that is going on in the world in the name of religion, which has become really quite a circus however beautiful it is. Then, I think, we could from there start, if you will, If you agree to the meaning of that word.	安：克里希那穆提先生，在我们的对话中，有一种东西呈现在了我面前，我想说，它带着一股引人入胜的力量。也就是说，一方面，我们一直在探讨思想和知识与那种东西之间失调的关系，但另一方面你却从未说过我们应该扔掉思想，你也从未说过这种知识本身具有某种深刻的东西。因此，关于智慧和思想之间关系的问题就出现了，以及是什么东西在维持着智慧和思想之间那种创造性的关系，或许那是某种持久的最初的活动。而在思考这个问题的过程中，我不知道你是否会同意：也许在人类存在的历史上， “神”的概念就产生于与这种持久活动的关系—— 虽然这个概念已经被严重滥用了。而这就引出了整个关于宗教本身现状的问题。我想知道今天我们是否可以来谈一下这个？克：好的，先生。你知道，像“宗教”、 “爱”，或者“神”这样的词几乎已经完全失去了它们的意义。人们如此严重地滥用了这些词，宗教已经变成了一种巨大的迷信，一种庞大的宣传，难以置信的信仰和迷信，崇拜那些双手和头脑制造出来的形象。所以当我们谈到宗教时，如果可以，我想明确一点：我们两个使用的都是“宗教” 这个词真正的意义，不是基督教、印度教、穆斯林或者佛教上的意义，也不是在这个国家里以宗教之名进行的所有愚蠢之事。我认为“宗教”这个词意味着聚集起所有的能量，所有层面的能量——生理上、心理上、精神上——所有的层面，聚集起所有这些可以带来巨大关注的能量。那种关注没有界限，然后我们就可以从那里行动了。对我来说这就是宗教这个词的含义：聚集起全部的能量去了解思想所无法捕捉的东西。思想永远不会是崭新和自由的，因此它总是局限和支离破碎的，等等 ——这个我们已经讨论过了。所以宗教并不是一个由思想、恐惧或者对满足和欢愉的追求所造就的东西，而是完全超越这一切的，它并非浪漫主义，也非揣测性的信仰或者多愁善感。而我认为，如果我们可以紧扣这一点，紧扣这个词的意义，扔掉这个世界上所有以宗教之名进行着的乱七八糟的迷信活动的话 ——那些活动已经完全变成了马戏团的表演，不管看上去有多美好—— 那么我想我们就可以从这里开始了，如果你愿意，如果你也同意这个词的意思的话。
7:06	A: I have been thinking as you have been speaking that in the biblical tradition there are actual statements from the prophets, which seem to point to what you are saying. Such things come to mind as Isaiah's taking the part of the divine when he says, 'My thoughts are not your thoughts, my ways are not your ways, as high as the heavens are above the earth, so are my thoughts and your thoughts', so stop thinking about me in that sense. K: Yes, quite.	安：当你说这些的时候我一直在想，在圣经的传统中那些先知也有过真实的陈述，它们似乎就指向你所说的意思。我想起了以赛亚（圣经男子名，希伯来预言家）充当着神圣的角色，当时他说，“我的思想并非你的思想，我的道路也并非你的道路，就如天空高悬于大地之上，我们的思想也有着天壤之别”，所以不要按你的想法来理解我。克：是的，非常对。
7:41	A: And don't try to find a means to me that you have contrived, since my ways are higher than your ways. And then I was thinking while you were speaking concerning this act of attention, this gathering together of all energies of the whole man, the very simple, 'Be still and know that I am God'. Be still. It's amazing when one thinks of the history of religion, how little attention has been paid to that as compared with ritual.	安：也不要试图以你们设想的方式来接近我，因为我的道路高于你们的道路。然后当你谈到这种关注的行动和聚集起整个人的所有能量的时候，我想其实很简单，那就是“安静下来，就会知道我就是上帝”。安静下来。令人惊讶的是，当思考宗教的历史时，相比于各种宗教仪式，人们却很少去关注这一点。
8:15	K: But I think, when we lost touch with nature, with the universe, with the clouds, lakes, birds, when we lost touch with all that, then the priests came in. Then all the superstition, fears, exploitation - all that began. The priest became the mediator between the human and the so-called divine. And I believe, if you have read the Rig Veda - I was told about it, because I don't read all this - that there, in the first Veda, there is no mention of God at all. There is only this worship of something immense, expressed in nature, in the earth, in the clouds, in the trees, in the beauty of vision. But that being very, very simple, the priests said, that is too simple.	克：但是我认为，当我们失去了与自然的联系，失去了与宇宙、云朵、湖泊、鸟儿的联系，当我们失去了所有这些联系时，神职人员就趁虚而入了。于是所有的迷信、恐惧、剥削——所有这些都开始了。神职人员变成了人类和所谓神圣之间的中介。而我相信，如果你曾经读过《梨俱吠陀》的话 ——这是别人告诉我的，我自己并没有读过这些—— 你会发现在早期的《吠陀经》中，根本就没有提到过神，而只有对某种无限之物的那种崇拜，那种无限表现在大自然之中，大地之上，云彩之间，山林之内，它存在于自然的美景之中。但是因为这些非常非常简单，于是那些神职人员说：这太过简单了。
9:51	A: Let's mix it up.	安：所以让我们把它搞复杂一点。
9:52	K: Let's mix it up, let's confuse it a little bit. And then it began. I believe this is traceable from the ancient Vedas to the present time, where the priest became the interpreter, the mediator, the explainer, the exploiter, the man who said, this is right, this is wrong, you must believe this or you will go to perdition, and so on, so on, so on. He generated fear, not the adoration of beauty, not the adoration of life lived totally, wholly, without conflict, but something placed outside there, beyond and above, what he considered to be God and made propaganda for that. So I feel, if we could from the beginning use the word 'religion' in the simplest way, that is, the gathering of all energy, so that there is total attention, and in that quality of attention the immeasurable comes into being. Because, as we said the other day, the measurable is the mechanical. Which the West has cultivated, made marvellous, technologically, physically - medicine, science, biology, and so on, so on - which has made the world so superficial, mechanical, worldly, materialistic. And that is spreading all over the world. And in reaction to that, - this materialistic attitude - there are all these superstitious, nonsensical, unreasoned religions that are going on. I don't know if you saw the other day the absurdity of these gurus coming from India and teaching the West how to meditate, how to hold breath, they say, 'I am God, worship me', and falling at their feet, you know, it has become so absurd and childish, so utterly immature. All that indicates the degradation of the word 'religion' and the human mind that can accept this kind of circus and idiocy.	克：让我们把它弄得复杂一点，让我们把它变得混乱一点。于是闹剧就开始了。我相信这件事情可以从古老的吠陀时代一直追溯到现在，神职人员变成了翻译者、中间人、解释者和剥削者，他说这是对的，那是错的，你必须信仰这个否则就会万劫不复，等等等等。他带来的是恐惧，而不是对美的热爱，对圆满和谐生命的崇敬，而是崇拜某个被放置在外的遥远而又高高在上的东西，他们认为是那神，然后加以鼓吹宣传。所以我在想，我们是否可以从一开始就以最简单的意思来使用“宗教”这个词，也就是聚集起所有的能量从而获得一种全然的关注，在那种关注的品质之中无法衡量的事物就会出现。因为，就如我们前几天曾经说过的，可衡量的事物都是机械化的。而这就是西方世界在致力于发展的东西，在科技和物质领域做出了不可思议的成就 ——医药、科学、生物学等等等等—— 然而这些东西让这个世界变得如此肤浅、机械、世俗和唯物。然而这种风潮却已经席卷了整个世界。而与这种唯物主义态度正好相反的，则是所有那些迷信、荒谬和缺乏理智的宗教。我不知道那天你是否看到了那个荒谬的景象：那些来自于印度的上师在教导西方人如何冥想，如何控制呼吸，他们说，“我就是上帝，崇拜我吧”，然后人们就拜倒在他们的脚下，你知道，这整件事情是如此荒谬和幼稚，如此不成熟。所有这些都表明了“宗教”这个词的堕落，而人类的心智却接受了这种马戏团般的表演和白痴行径。
13:24	A: I was thinking of a remark of Sri Aurobindo in a study that he made on the Veda, where he traced its decline in this sentence. He said, it issues, as language, from sages, then it falls to the priests, and then after the priests it falls to the scholars, or the academicians. But in that study there was no statement that I found as to how it ever fell to the priests. And I was wondering whether...	安：我想起了室利·阿罗频多在他的吠陀研究中所作的一个评论，他以这样的一句话追溯了宗教衰退的原因。他说，它以语言的形式从圣人的口中流出，然后落到了神职人员手里，然后又从神职人员那里落到了学者或者知识分子的手中。但是在他的研究中，我发现他并没有解释宗教是如何落到神职人员手里的。而我在想是否
13:59	K: I think it is fairly simple, sir. A: Yes, please.	克：我认为这非常简单，先生。安：请讲。
14:03	K: I think it is fairly simple, how the priests got hold of the whole business. Because man is so concerned with his own petty little affairs, petty little desires, and ambitions, superficiality, he wants something a little more: he wants a little more romantic, a little more sentimental, more something other than the daily beastly routine of living. So he looks somewhere, and the priests say, 'Hey, come over here, I've got the goods'. I think it is very simple, how the priests have come in. You see it in India, you see it in the West. You see it everywhere where man begins to be concerned with daily living, the daily operation of bread and butter, house and all the rest of it, he demands something more than that. He says, after all, I'll die, but there must be something more.	克：我认为这是非常简单的，神职人员们是如何掌控这整个把戏的。那是因为人类是如此关心他自己的琐碎事务，他自己那卑微渺小的渴求、野心和肤浅之事，然后他又想要更多的一点东西：他想要某种更浪漫一点的、更多愁善感一点的，某种与他自己例行公事的可恶生活所不同的东西。于是他到处寻找，然后神职人员说， “嘿，到这里来吧，我有你要的商品”。所以我认为神职人员之所以能介入进来，原因是很简单的。在印度，在西方，在任何地方你都会发现人们关心着日常生活的琐事，关心着黄油、面包、房子等等这些事情，然后他还想要一些比这更多的东西。他说，无论如何我都会死去，但是肯定还有一些其他的东西。
15:24	A: So fundamentally it's a matter of securing for himself some...	安：所以从根本上来说，这件事情是为了保障他自己可以获得某种
15:32	K: ...heavenly grace. A: ...some heavenly grace that will preserve him against falling into this mournful round of coming to be and passing away. Thinking of the past on the one hand, anticipating the future on the other, you're saying he falls out of the present now.	克：……上天的恩典。安：……那种上天的恩典可以让他不会再次进入痛苦悲伤的生死轮回。人们一边在思考着过去，一边又在预期着未来，所以你说他已经脱离了当下。
15:50	K: Yes, that's right. A: I understand.	克：是的，很对。安：我明白了。
15:54	K: So, if we could keep to that meaning of that word 'religion', then from there the question arises: can the mind be so attentive in the total sense that the unnameable comes into being? You see, personally, I have never read any of these things: Vedas, Bhagavad-Gita, Upanishads, the Bible, all the rest of it, or any philosophy. But I questioned everything.	克：所以，如果我们可以紧扣 “宗教”这个词的意思的话，那么问题就出来了：心能不能从如此完全的意义上去关注，于是那个无法命名的事物能够得以出现？你知道，就我个人而言，我从未读过这些书中的任何一部：《吠陀经》、《薄伽梵歌》、《奥义书》或者《圣经》等等，也没有读过任何哲学著作。我质疑所有这些东西。
16:44	A: Yes.	安：嗯。
16:47	K: Not questioned only, but observed. And one sees the absolute necessity of a mind that is completely quiet. Because it's only out of quietness you perceive what is happening. If I am chattering, I won't listen to you. If my mind is constantly rattling away, what you are saying I won't pay attention. To pay attention means to be quiet.	克：不只是质疑，还要去观察。然后我们就会发现心必须要完全安静下来才行。因为只有在安静之中你才能看到发生的事情。如果我在不停唠叨，那么我是不会听你讲的。如果我的心在喋喋不休，那么我就不会注意到你所说的话。关注就意味着安静下来。
17:35	A: There have been some priests, apparently - who usually ended up in a great deal of trouble for it - there have been some priests, who had, it seems, a grasp of this. I was thinking of Meister Eckhart's remark that whoever is able to read the book of nature, doesn't need any scriptures at all.	安：很显然有一些牧师似乎也多少领悟到了这一点，虽然最后他们为此而遭遇了很大的不幸。我想起了迈斯特·埃克哈特曾经说过那个能够阅读自然这本书的人，他就不需要再去阅读任何典籍了。
17:57	K: At all, that's just it, sir.	克：对，很对，先生。
17:58	A: Of course, he ended up in very great trouble. Yes, he had a bad time toward the end of his life, and after he died the church denounced him.	安：当然了，最后他也因为这种观点遭遇到了很大的麻烦，他晚年过得很不幸，在他死后，教会公开抨击了他。
18:09	K: Of course, of course. Organised belief as church and all the rest of it, is too obvious! It isn't subtle, it hasn't got the quality of real depth and real spirituality. You know what it is. A: Yes, I do.	克：当然了，当然。教会等等这些组织化的信仰，太直白了！它不够细致精微，它没有真正的深度和真正的精神品质。你知道这是什么意思。安：是的，我知道。
18:28	K: So, I'm asking: what is the quality of a mind, - therefore heart and brain - what is the quality of a mind that can perceive something beyond the measurement of thought? What is the quality of a mind? Because that quality is the religious mind. That quality of a mind that is capable, that has this feeling of being sacred in itself, and therefore is capable of seeing something immeasurably sacred.	克：所以我问：心灵 ——也就是内心和大脑—— 要具有什么样的品质才能够洞察到某种超越思想量度的事物？那种心灵品质是什么？因为那种品质才是宗教心灵。那种心灵品质是有力的，它本身具有内在的神圣感，由此就能够看到某种无可度量的神圣之物。
19:27	A: The word 'devotion' seems to imply this, when it is grasped in its proper sense. To use your earlier phrase 'gathering together toward a one-pointed, attentive..'.	安：“奉献”这个词语似乎就暗示着这个意思—— 如果我理解正确的话。借用一下你早前的表述： “把一切汇集到一点上，保持关注……”
19:47	K: Would you say attention is one-pointed?	克：你是想说关注就是汇集于一点吗？
19:50	A: No, I didn't mean to imply focus when I said one-pointed.	安：不，当我说汇集到一点的时候，我的意思并不是说集中注意力。
19:54	K: Yes, that's what I wondered. A: I meant, rather, integrated into itself as utterly quiet and unconcerned about taking thought for what is ahead or what is behind. Simply being there. The word 'there' isn't good either, because it suggests that there is a 'where' and 'here', and all the rest of it. It is very difficult to find, it seems to me, language to do justice to what you are saying, precisely because when we speak, utterance is in time and it is progressive, it has a quality, doesn't it, more like music than we see in graphic art. You can stand before a picture, whereas to hear music and grasp its theme you virtually have to wait until you get to the end and gather it all up.	克：是的，这就是我在怀疑的东西。安：其实我的意思是，完全安静地融入于自身之中，不再费心思考未来和过去。只是单纯地存在于那里。 “那里”这个词同样不恰当，因为它似乎暗示了还有 “哪里”和“这里”等等的意思。在我看来，要用语言来正确表达你所说的东西是非常困难的，确实是因为当我们谈话的时候，我们的说话方式都落入了时间，它是渐进式的，它更具有某种类似音乐的特性，而不是一种图形艺术，不是吗？你可以一目了然地看到一幅画，然而聆听音乐并且领会它的主题事实上你就必须耐心等待，直到把音乐听完以后你才能领会它全部的意思。
21:01	K: Quite. A: And with language you have the same difficulty.	克：是这样的。安：而对于语言来说，困难同样也在这里。
21:05	K: No, I think, sir, don't you, when we are enquiring into this problem: what is the nature and the structure of a mind, and therefore the quality of a mind, that is not only sacred and holy in itself, but is capable of seeing something immense? As we were talking, the other day, about suffering, personal and the sorrow of the world, it isn't that we must suffer, suffering is there. Every human being has a dreadful time with it. And there is the suffering of the world. And it isn't that one must go through it, but as it is there, one must understand it and go beyond it. And that's one of the qualities of a religious mind, in the sense we are using that word, that is incapable of suffering. It has gone beyond it. Which doesn't mean that it becomes callous. On the contrary, it is a passionate mind.	克：不，先生，我认为，难道你不这样认为：当我们在探询这个问题，即那个不仅自身崇高、神圣，而且还能够看到某种无限的事物的心灵，这样的心灵它的本质和结构是什么，进而它所具有的品质是什么？前几天当我们讨论痛苦，那种个人的痛苦和全世界的悲伤时，我们并不是说我们必须受苦，而是痛苦已经在那里了。每一个人都有过痛苦不堪的艰难岁月，整个世界也在受苦。但不是说我一定要去经历痛苦，而是因为痛苦已经在那里了，所以我必须去了解它然后超越它。而这就是宗教心灵的品质之一，这里宗教心灵的意思是一颗不会痛苦的心。它已经超越了痛苦。但这并不意味着它变得冷酷无情了。相反，它是一颗充满激情的心。
22:57	A: One of the things that I have thought much about during our conversations is language itself. On the one hand, we say such a mind, as you have been describing, is one that is present to suffering. It does nothing to push it away, on the one hand, and yet, it is somehow able to contain it, not put it in a vase or barrel and contain it in that sense, and yet the very word itself 'to suffer' means to under-carry. And it seems close to under-stand. Over and over again in our conversations I have been thinking about the customary way in which we use language, as a use that deprives us of really seeing the glory of what the word points to itself, in itself. I was thinking about the word 'religion' when we were speaking earlier. Scholars differ as to where that came from: on the one hand some say that it means to bind.	安：在我们的谈话中，我想到最多的一个东西就是语言本身。一方面，我们说你一直描述的那颗心它是能够直面痛苦的。它不会排斥痛苦，一方面是这样的，而且它还能以某种方式包容痛苦。不是把它搁置别处，而是真正地包容它，然而“受苦”这个词本身就意味着去承受。而承受（under-carry）这个词似乎和理解（under-stand）很接近。在我们的对话中，我曾经不止一次地思考我们使用语言的习惯，那种习惯的方式使我们无法真正看到那个词语所指和词语本身所具有的光芒。在我们之前的谈话中，我一直在思考“宗教”这个词。学者们对于这个词来自何处有着不同的观点：有些人说这个词意味着约束。
24:29	K: Bind - ligare. A: The Church Fathers spoke about that. And then others say, no, no, it means the numinous, or the splendour, that cannot be exhausted by thought. It seems to me that, wouldn't you say, that there is another sense to 'bind' that is not a negative one, in the sense that if one is making this act of attention, one isn't bound as with cords of ropes. But one is there, or here.	克：约束——也就是ligare（拉丁文）。安：这是教会神父的说法。而其他的一些人则说，不，不，它的意思是崇高庄严或者光辉灿烂，它是思想所无法穷尽的东西。而在我看来，你会不会说，存在着另外一种意义上的“约束”，它不是消极负面的，也就是说，如果一个人采取这种关注的行动，那么他就不会像被绳索束缚住了一样。但是一个人要么在那里，要么在这里。
25:11	K: Sir, now again, let's be clear. When we use the word 'attention', there is a difference between concentration and attention. Concentration is exclusion. I concentrate. That is, bring all my thinking to a certain point, and therefore it is excluding, building a barrier, so that it can focus its whole concentration on that. Whereas attention is something entirely different from concentration. In that there is no exclusion. In that there is no resistance. In that there is no effort. And therefore no frontier, no limits.	克：先生，让我们再来厘清一下。当我们使用“关注”这个词的时候，它和专注是有所区别的。专注是排外的。我专注，也就是把我全部的思维都集中到一个特定的点上，因此它是排外的，它建立起一道屏障，由此它就可以把自己全部的注意力集中在某个东西上了。然而关注则是某种与专注完全不同的东西。在关注之中是不存在排外的。在它之中没有抵抗，也没有努力，因而没有边界和局限。
26:20	A: How would you feel about the word 'receptive' in this respect?	安：从这个意义上讲，你又如何理解“接收”这个词呢？
26:27	K: Again, who is it that is to receive?	克：同样的，是“谁”在那里接收呢？
26:35	A: Already we have made a division. K: A division.	安：这样说就已经产生了一种区分。克：一种区分。
26:37	A: With that word. K: Yes. I think the word 'attention' is really a very good word. Because it not only understands concentration, not only sees the duality of reception - the receiver and the received - and also it sees the nature of duality and the conflict of the opposites, and attention means not only the brain giving its energy, but also the mind, the heart, the nerves, the total entity, the total human mind giving all its energy to perceive. I think that is the meaning of that word, for me at least, to be attentive, attend. Not concentrate - attend. That means listen, see, give your heart to it, give your mind to it, give your whole being to attend, otherwise you can't attend. If I am thinking about something else I can't attend. If I am hearing my own voice, I can't attend.	安：因为我们用了这个词。克：是的。我认为“关注”这个词语其实是一个非常好的词。因为它不但能够理解专注，看到接收的二元性 ——也就是接收者和他所接收的东西—— 它还能够看到二元性的本质和对立面隐含的冲突，关注不仅意味着大脑付出了能量，而是大脑、内心、神经，这整个存在，人的整个心灵都付出所有的能量去感知。我认为这就是这个词的意思，至少对我来说是这样，那就是去留心，去关注。不是专注——而是关注。那意味着去倾听，去观察，用你的心灵、头脑和全部的存在去关注，否则你是无法全神贯注的。如果我在思考着其他东西，我就无法全神贯注。如果我只听到我自己的声音，我就无法关注。
28:13	A: There is a metaphorical use of the word 'waiting' in scripture. It's interesting that, in English too, we use the word 'attendant' in terms of one who waits on. I'm trying to penetrate the notion of waiting and patience in relation to this.	安：在经文中，“等待”这个词有一种隐喻的用法。有趣的是，在英语中也是如此，我们使用“随从”这个词来表示某个随时从旁待命的人。我在试图看透等待和耐心的含义与我们所讨论东西之间的联系。
28:41	K: I think, sir, waiting again means 'one who is waiting for something'. Again, there is a duality in that. And when you wait you are expecting. Again a duality. One who is waiting, about to receive. So, if we could for the moment hold ourselves to that word 'attention', then we should enquire, what is the quality of a mind that is so attentive that it has understood, lives, acts in relationship and responsibility as behaviour, and has no fear psychologically in that we talked about, and therefore understands the movement of pleasure. Then we come to the point, what is such a mind? I think it would be worthwhile if we could discuss the nature of hurt.	克：先生，我认为等待同样意味着 “一个在等待某个东西的人”。所以这里面还是有一种二元性。当你等待时，你就是在有所期盼。所以这还是一种二元性。那个人在等待，等待着去接收。所以，如果我们可以暂时紧扣 “关注”这个词，那么我们就应该探询，那种头脑具有什么样的品质？那个头脑是如此关注从而能够获得了解，它在关系中生活和行动并且为自己负责，它没有我们所说的那种心理上的恐惧，因此它可以了解欢愉的运动。于是我们来到了这一点上：这种头脑是怎样的？在这里我认为如果我们可以来讨论一下伤害的本质，那将是很有价值的。
30:13	A: Of hurt? Yes.	安：伤害？好的。
30:15	K: Why human beings are hurt? All people are hurt.	克：为什么人类会受到伤害？所有的人都会受伤。
30:25	A: You mean both the physical and the psychological?	安：你说的伤害是不是既包括生理的也包括心理的？
30:27	K: Psychological especially.	克：这里我特指心理上的。
30:29	A: Especially the psychological one, yes.	安：心理上的伤害，好的。
30:31	K: Physically we can tolerate it. We can bear up with a pain and say, I won't let it interfere with my thinking. I won't let it corrode my psychological quality of mind. The mind can watch over that. But the psychological hurts are much more important and difficult to grapple with and understand. I think it is necessary because a mind that is hurt is not an innocent mind. The very word 'innocent' comes from 'innocere', not to hurt. A mind that is incapable of being hurt. And there is a great beauty in that.	克：生理上的伤害是我们可以忍受的。我们可以忍受生理上的痛苦，然后说，我不会让它影响我的思维。我不会让它腐蚀我头脑的精神品质。头脑可以看管好这一点。但是心理上的伤害则要更加重要，更加难以把握和了解。我认为了解这一点是非常有必要的，因为一颗受伤的心就不是一颗单纯的心。 “单纯(innocent)”这个词本身就来自于 “innocere”，不会受伤。一颗不会受伤的心灵中就蕴藏着巨大的美。
31:22	A: Yes, there is. It's a marvellous word. We have usually used it to indicate a lack of something.	安：是的，是这样的。这是一个非常棒的词。但我们常常用这个词来表示缺乏某些东西。
31:33	K: I know. A: Yes, and there it's turned upside down again.	克：我知道。安：所以它的意思已经完全颠倒了。
31:36	K: And the Christians have made such an absurd thing of it.	克：基督教徒们已经把它变成了一件如此荒唐的事情。
31:39	A: Yes, I understand that.	安：是的，我理解。
31:42	K: So, I think we ought to, in discussing religion, we ought to enquire very, very deeply the nature of hurt, because a mind that is not hurt is an innocent mind. And you need this quality of innocency to be so totally attentive.	克：因此我认为在讨论宗教的过程中，我们应该非常非常深入地去质询伤害的本质，因为一颗不会受伤的心才是一颗纯真的心。而要变得全然关注，你就需要这种单纯的品质。
32:15	A: If I have been following you correctly, I think maybe you would say that one becomes hurt when he starts thinking about thinking that he is hurt.	安：如果我没有理解错的话，我认为也许你会说一个人之所以会受伤是因为他开始想到自己受伤了。
32:30	K: Look, sir, it's much deeper than that, isn't it? From childhood the parents compare the child with another child.	克：注意，先生，这件事情比那要深入多了，不是吗？从小开始父母们就把自己的孩子和其他的孩子比较。
32:44	A: That's when that thought arises. K: There it is. When you compare, you are hurting. A: Yes.	安：这就是受伤的想法出现的时候。克：是的。当你比较的时候，你就在伤害别人。安：是的。
32:52	K: No, but we do it. A: Oh yes, of course we do it.	克：可我们就在这样做。安：哦，是的，当然我们就在这么做。
32:57	K: Therefore, is it possible to educate a child without comparison, without imitation? And therefore never get hurt in that way. And one is hurt because one has built an image about oneself. The image, which one has built about oneself, is a form of resistance, a wall between you and me. And when you touch that wall at its tender point, I get hurt. So not to compare in education, not to have an image about oneself. That's one of the most important things in life not to have an image about oneself. If you have, you are inevitably going to be hurt. Suppose one has an image that one is very good, or that one should be a great success, or that one has great capacities, gifts - you know, the images that one builds - inevitably you are going to come and prick it. Inevitably accidents and incidents happen, that's going to break that, and one gets hurt.	克：因此，我们有没有可能教育孩子而不去比较，也不借助模仿？那样就永远不会因此而受伤了。一个人之所以会受伤是因为他建立了一个关于自己的形象。那个我们为自己建立起来的形象是一种抵抗的形式，一道挡在你我之间的墙壁。而当你触碰到了我墙壁的敏感点时，我就会受伤。所以不要在教育中进行比较，也不要抱有关于自己的形象。生命中最重要的事情之一就是不要对自己抱有形象。如果你有形象的话，那么你就不可避免地会受到伤害。假设一个人有一个形象，觉得自己是个很好的人，或者他应该获得巨大的成功，或者他有非凡的才华和天赋 ——你知道，我们所建立起来的那些形象—— 那么不可避免地，你会过去刺痛它。不可避免地会有一些意外和事件发生从而打破他自设的形象，于是那个人就受伤了。
34:36	A: Doesn't this raise the question of name?	安：这里是不是就提出了一个有关名字的问题？
34:39	K: Oh yes. A: The use of name.	克：哦，是的。安：名字的使用。
34:41	K: Name, form.	克：名字，形式。
34:44	A: The child is given a name, the child identifies himself with the name.	安：孩子被取了一个名字，然后孩子把自己和那个名字认同起来。
34:48	K: Yes, the child can identify itself, but, without the image, just a name - Brown, Mr. Brown - there is nothing to it! But the moment he builds an image that Mr. Brown is socially, morally different, superior, or inferior, ancient, or comes from a very old family, belongs to a certain higher class, aristocracy. The moment that begins, and when that is encouraged and sustained by thought - snobbism, you know the whole of it, how it is - then you are inevitably going to be hurt.	克：是的，孩子可以把他自己和名字认同起来，但是没有那个形象，就只有一个名字而已 ——布朗，布朗先生—— 名字里面没有什么东西！然而一旦当他建立起了一个形象说布朗先生在社会上或道德上与众不同，或高尚或低下，是名门望族，或者来自于一个古老的家族，属于某个上流阶层和贵族的话，那么一旦这一切开始，当这些东西被思想所鼓舞、所维系时 ——那么就会有势利，你知道势利的全部含义以及它的表现—— 那时你就不可避免地会受伤。
35:39	A: What you are saying, I take it, is that there is a radical confusion here involved in the imagining oneself to be his name.	安：依我之见，你说的是在想象自己就是那个名字的过程中就隐含着彻底的混乱。
35:51	K: Yes. Identification with the name, with the body, with the idea that you are socially different, that your parents, your grandparents were lords, or this, or that. You know, the whole snobbism of England, and all that, and the different kind of snobbism in this country.	克：是的。认同于名字，认同于身体，认同于那些想法：你有着与众不同的社会地位，你的父母和祖父母是贵族，是这个，是那个。你知道，英国的那种势利以及诸如此类的一切，而这个国家，也有着自己不同的势利方式。
36:14	A: We speak in language of preserving our name. K: Yes. And in India it is the Brahmin, the non-Brahmin, the whole business of that. So, through education, through tradition, through propaganda we have built an image about ourselves.	安：我们所说的语言就是在延续我们的名字。克：是的。在印度它表现为婆罗门与非婆罗门，以及所有那些事情。所以经由教育，经由传统，经由宣传洗脑，我们已经建立起了一个关于自己的形象。
36:36	A: Is there a relation here in terms of religion, would you say, to the refusal, for instance, in the Hebraic tradition to pronounce the name of God.	安：那么这件事与宗教有什么关系吗？你会不会说，举个例子，在希伯来传统中，“拒绝”这个词发音有点像“上帝”。
36:50	K: The word is not the thing anyhow. So you can pronounce it or not pronounce it. If you know the word is never the thing, the description is never the described, then it doesn't matter.	克：不管怎样，词语并不是那个东西。所以你可以这样发音，也可以不这样发。如果你知道词语并不是那个东西，描述也并非被描述之物的话，那么这就无关紧要了。
37:05	A: No. One of the reasons I've always been over the years deeply drawn to the study of the roots of words is simply because for the most part they point to something very concrete. It's either a thing, or it's a gesture, more often than not it's some act.	安：不。这些年我之所以一直深入研究词语字根含义的原因之一就是，多数情况下，它们所指的是某些非常具体的东西。它要么是一个东西，要么是一个动作，至少多半也是某种行动。
37:31	K: Quite, quite. A: Some act. When I used the phrase 'thinking about thinking' before, I should have been more careful of my words and referred to mulling over the image, which would have been a much better way to put it, wouldn't it? K: Yes, yes.	克：是的，没错。安：某种行动。我以前用“思考思想”这样的表述时，我本应该更加注意我的用词，把它换成“反复思考形象” 也许更好一点，不是吗？克：是的，很对。
37:47	A: Yes, yes. K: So, can a child be educated never to get hurt? And I have heard professors, scholars say, a child must be hurt in order to live in the world. And when I asked him, 'Do you want your child to be hurt?' he kept absolutely quiet. He was just talking theoretically. Now, unfortunately, through education, through social structure and the nature of our society in which we live, we have been hurt, we have images about ourselves, which are going to be hurt, and is it possible not to create images at all? I don't know if I am making myself clear. A: You are.	安：是的，这样更好。克：所以，我们能够教育一个孩子而从不让他受伤吗？我曾经听那些教授和学者这样说：孩子必须受伤才能在这个世界上生存。而当我问他，“你希望你的孩子受伤吗？” 他们就沉默不语了。他们只是在纸上谈兵而已。而很不幸的是，经由教育以及我们社会的结构和社会的本质，我们受到了伤害，我们对自己抱有形象，而这个形象将会受到伤害，那么我们有没有可能完全不制造形象呢？我不知道我是不是表达清楚了。安：很清楚了。
38:55	K: That is, suppose I have an image about myself, which I haven't fortunately, if I have an image, is it possible to wipe it away, to understand it and therefore dissolve it, and never to create a new image about myself? You understand? Living in a society, being educated, I have built an image, inevitably. Now, can that image be wiped away?	克：也就是，假设我有一个关于自己的形象 ——幸运的是我没有—— 但如果我有一个形象的话，那么我可否扫除这个形象，去了解它从而消除它，并且不再制造出一个新的自我形象呢？你明白吗？生活在这个社会上，在其中受教育长大，我已经不可避免地建立起了一个形象。那么这个形象可以被抹掉吗？
39:36	A: Wouldn't it disappear with this complete act of attention?	安：是不是伴随着那种完全关注的行动，形象就会消失？
39:39	K: That's what I'm coming to, gradually. It would totally disappear. But I must understand how this image is born. I can't just say, 'Well, I'll wipe it out'.	克：这就是我慢慢会讲到的东西。形象会完全消失。但是我必须了解这个形象是如何产生的。我不能单单说一句，“好吧，我要抹掉它”。
39:55	A: Yes, we have to...	安：是的，我们必须
39:56	K: Use attention as a means of wiping it out - it doesn't work that way. In understanding the image, in understanding the hurts, in understanding the education, in which one has been brought up in the family, in the society - all that, in the understanding of that, out of that understanding comes the attention, not the attention first and then wipe it out. You can't attend if you're hurt. If I am hurt, how can I attend? Because that hurt is going to keep me, consciously or unconsciously, from this total attention.	克：把关注作为一种扫除形象的手段—— 这样也是行不通的。在了解形象的过程中，在了解伤害的过程中，在了解从小到大家庭和社会所给予我们的教育的过程中—— 就在了解所有这些东西之中，经由那种了解就会产生关注，而不是先去关注，然后扫除掉形象。如果你受伤了，那么你就不可能关注。如果我伤痕累累，我又怎么能留心关注呢？因为有意识或无意识地，伤害都会让我无法全神贯注。
40:45	A: The amazing thing, if I'm understanding you correctly, is that, even in the study of the dysfunctional history - provided I bring total attention to that - there's going to be a non-temporal relationship between... K: Absolutely, that's right.	安：如果我理解正确的话，令人惊奇的事情是，即使在对于人类关系失调历史的研究中 ——倘若我能够对此全神贯注—— 那么我就会发现有一种稳固的关系存在于…… 克：确实如此，很对。
41:04	A: ...the act of attention and the healing that takes place. While I'm attending the thing is leaving. K: The thing is leaving, yes, that's it. A: We've got 'thinging' along here throughout. Yes, exactly.	安：……存在于关注行动和发生的治愈之间。当我全神贯注时，那个东西就离去了。克：那个东西离开了，是的，就是如此。安：我们这里始终都有这种“正在进行的事情”。是的，的确如此。
41:17	K: So, there are two questions involved: can the hurts be healed, so that not a mark is left, and can future hurts be prevented completely, without any resistance. You follow? Those are two problems. And they can be understood only and resolved, when I give attention to the understanding of my hurts. When I look at it, not translate it, not wish to wipe them away, just to look at it - as we went into that question of perception - just to see my hurts. The hurts I have received: the insults, the negligence, the casual word, the gesture - all those hurt. And the language one uses, specially in this country.	克：所以，这其中隐含了两个问题：伤害可以痊愈，从而不留下任何疤痕吗？未来的伤害可以不加抵抗地被彻底防止吗？你明白吗？这是两个问题。而只有当我全神贯注于了解我自己的伤害时，我才能理解并解决它们。当我只是看着它，不去诠释它，也不希望抹掉它们，只是看着它时 ——就像我们在讨论觉察问题时那样—— 只是看着我的伤害。我受到的那些伤害：那些侮辱，那些漠视，那些冷言冷语，那些动作姿态 ——所有这些伤害。还有人们使用的那些语言，特别是在这个国家里。
42:39	A: Oh yes, yes. There seems to be a relationship between what you are saying and one of the meanings of the word 'salvation'.	安：噢，是的，是的。似乎你所说的东西和“救赎”这个词的某个含义有着一种关系。
42:55	K: 'Salvare' - to save.	克：“救赎”——去拯救。
42:56	A: To save. K: To save.	安：去拯救。克：是的，去拯救。
42:58	A: To make whole. K: To make whole. How can you be whole, sir, if you are hurt?	安：去变得完整。克：去变得完整。但是先生，如果你受伤了，那么你又如何变得完整呢？
43:05	A: Impossible.	安：那是不可能的。
43:06	K: Therefore it is tremendously important to understand this question.	克：所以了解这个问题是至关重要的。
43:09	A: Yes, it is. But I am thinking of a child who comes to school, who has already got a freight car filled with hurts. K: I know - hurts.	安：是的，是这样的。但是我在想当一个孩子开始上学时，他身上其实已经装了一卡车的伤害了。克：我知道——无数的伤害。
43:17	A: We are not dealing with a little one in the crib now, but we're already... K: We are already hurt.	安：我们现在并不是在探讨摇篮里的婴儿的问题，而是我们已经…… 克：我们已经受伤了。
43:24	A: Already hurt. And hurt because it's hurt. And it multiplies endlessly. K: Of course. From that hurt he's violent. From that hurt he is frightened and therefore withdrawing. From that hurt, he will do neurotic things. From that hurt he will accept anything that gives him safety - God, his idea of God is a god who will never hurt.	安：已经受伤了。然后又因为那种伤害而继续受伤。于是伤害永无止尽地成倍增加。克：毫无疑问是这样的。因为伤害，他变得暴力。因为伤害，他变得害怕进而退缩。因为伤害，他去做一些神经质的事情。因为伤害，他会盲目接受任何可以给予他安全感的东西——比如上帝，他心中的上帝是一个永远不会伤害他的上帝。
44:00	A: Sometimes a distinction is made between ourselves and animals with respect to this problem. An animal, for instance, that has been badly hurt will be disposed toward everyone in terms of emergency and attack. K: Attack.	安：在这个问题上，我们和动物的表现有时会有一些区别。举个例子来说，一个严重受伤的动物会倾向于把每一个人看作是一种急迫的威胁并加以攻击。克：攻击。
44:22	A: But over a period of time - it might take 3-4 years - if the animal is loved and...	安：但是在一段时间之后 ——也许3-4年—— 如果这个动物在此期间被爱并且
44:31	K: So, sir, you see, you said - loved. We haven't got that thing.	克：所以，先生，你看你说到了——被爱。但是我们没有这个东西。
44:40	A: No. K: And parents haven't got love for their children. They may talk about love. Because the moment they compare the younger to the older they have hurt the child. 'Your father was so clever, you are such a stupid boy'. There you have begun. In schools, when they give you marks, it is a hurt - not marks - it is a deliberate hurt! And that is stored, and from that there is violence, there is every kind of aggression, you know, all that takes place. So, a mind cannot be made whole or is whole unless this is understood very, very deeply.	安：是没有。克：而父母们并不爱他们的孩子。他们或许会谈论爱。因为一旦他们把年幼者和年长者相比，他们就已经伤害了那个孩子。 “你父亲这么聪明，可你却这么笨”。于是伤害就开始了。在学校里，当他们给你打分数的时候，这也是一种伤害——无关分数——它本身就是一种蓄意的伤害！这些伤害被储存了起来，然后从中产生了暴力，产生了各种攻击性，你知道那些事情都会发生。所以除非我们非常非常深刻地了解了这点，否则心灵是无法完整或者变得完整的。
45:42	A: The question that I had in mind before regarding what we have been saying is that this animal, if loved, will, - provided we are not dealing with brain damage or something - will, in time, love in return. But the thought is that with the human person love cannot be in that sense coerced. It isn't that one would coerce the animal to love, but that the animal, because innocent, does in time simply respond, accept. K: Accept, of course.	安：关于我们所说的东西，我之前脑子里的那个问题是，如果动物得到了爱 ——假如我们排除它脑部受损或者类似事情的话—— 那么那个动物也会及时地以爱来回报。但是我想在人类身上爱却无法以这种方式来强行运作。并没有什么人强迫着动物去爱，但是因为那个动物很单纯，所以它只是简单地接受了那种爱并加以回应。克：它接受了爱，当然。
46:22	A: But then a human person is doing something we don't think the animal is. K: No. The human being is being hurt and is hurting all the time.	安：但是人类对此的做法却和动物有所不同。克：的确不同。人类受到伤害，并且一直在伤害别人。
46:32	A: Exactly. Exactly. While he is mulling over his hurt, then he is likely to misinterpret the very act of generosity of love that is made toward him. So we are involved in something very frightful here: by the time the child comes into school, seven years old...	安：完全正确，的确如此。当他反复咀嚼自己所受的伤害时，他就很可能会误解别人给他的宽宏的爱。所以这里我们遇到了一件非常可怕的事情：那就是当孩子开始上学，7岁的时候
46:53	K: ...he is already gone, finished, tortured. There is the tragedy of it, sir, that is what I mean.	克：……他就已经死去了、完蛋了，已经饱受折磨了。这里有一种悲剧性，先生，这正是我的意思。
46:59	A: Yes, I know. And when you ask the question, as you have: is there a way to educate the child, so that the child...	安：是的，我知道。而之前你所问的那个问题：是否有一种教育方式，可以使孩子
47:11	K: ...is never hurt. That is part of education, that is part of culture. Civilisation is hurting. Sir, look, you see this everywhere all over the world, this constant comparison, constant imitation, constant saying, you are that, I must be like you. I must be like Krishna, like Buddha, like Jesus - you follow? That's a hurt. Religions have hurt people.	克：……永远不受伤害。这才是教育的一部分，这才是文化的一部分。而文明正在造成伤害。先生，你瞧，你能看到整个世界到处都是这样，都是这种持续不断的比较和模仿，人们不停地在说，你那么好，我要像你一样。我必须要像克里希那一样，像佛陀一样，像耶稣一样——你明白吗？这就是伤害。宗教已经伤害了人类。
48:02	A: The child is born to a hurt parent, sent to a school where it is taught by a hurt teacher. Now you are asking: is there a way to educate this child, so that the child recovers. K: I say it is possible, sir.	安：孩子出生时父母已经受过伤了，然后他被送进学校，而教他的老师也是受过伤害的。而现在你问：是否有一种教育这个孩子的方式可以使孩子得以痊愈。克：我说这是可能的，先生。
48:21	A: Yes, please.	安：请讲。
48:22	K: That is, when the teacher realises, when the educator realises he is hurt and the child is hurt, he is aware of his hurt and he is aware also of the child's hurt, then the relationship changes. Then he will, in the very act of teaching, mathematics, whatever it is, he is not only freeing himself from his hurt, but also helping the child to be free of his hurt. After all, that is education: to see that I, who am the teacher, I am hurt, I have gone through agonies of hurt and I want to help that child not to be hurt, and he has come to the school being hurt. So I say, 'All right, we both are hurt, my friends, let us see, let's help each other to wipe it out'. That is the act of love.	克：那就是，当老师意识到，当教育者意识到他受过伤而孩子也受过伤，当他觉察到了自己的伤害同样也觉察到了孩子的伤害时，那么他们之间的关系就会改变。那么就在教孩子数学或者无论什么科目时，他就不仅在把自己从伤害中解脱出来，同样他也在帮助孩子从伤害中解脱出来。毕竟，这才是教育：看到我这个老师曾经饱受伤害，而我已经历经了伤害的折磨，现在我想帮助孩子免于伤害，但是当他来到学校时已经是伤痕累累了。于是我说，“好吧，我们两个都受过伤，我的朋友，让我们来看看，让我们来帮助彼此抹去创伤”。这才是爱的行动。
49:38	A: Comparing the human organism with the animal, I return to the question, whether it is the case that this relationship to another human being must bring about this healing. K: Obviously, sir, if relationship exists, we said relationship can only exist when there is no image between you and me.	安：考虑到人类和动物机体组织的区别，我还是想问一下：你说的那种人类间的关系真的必然会愈合创伤吗？克：毫无疑问，先生，如果那种关系存在的话，而我们之前说过只有当你我之间没有形象时，那种关系才会存在。
50:10	A: Let us say that there is a teacher, who has come to grips with this in himself, very, very deeply, has, as you put it, gone into the question deeper, deeper and deeper, has come to a place where he no longer is hurt-bound. The child that he meets, or the young student that he meets, or even a student his own age, because we have adult education, is a person who is hurt-bound, and will he not...	安：假如说有一个老师，他内心非常深刻地领悟了这一点，然后，就如你所说的，在越来越深入地探究了那个问题以后，他最终不再被伤害所局限。而他遇到的孩子，或者年轻的学生，甚至和他同龄的学生， ——因为我们也有成人教育—— 都是被伤害所局限的，那么那些学生会不会
50:54	K: ...transmit that hurt to another?	克：……把他们的伤害传递给别人？
50:56	A: No, will he not, because he is hurt-bound, be prone to misinterpret the activity of the one who is not hurt-bound?	安：不是，因为学生被伤害所局限，所以他会不会容易误解那个没有被伤害局限之人的行为？
51:08	K: But there is no person who is not hurt-bound, except very, very few. Look, sir, lots of things have happened to me personally, I have never been hurt. I say this in all humility, in the real sense, I don't know what it means to be hurt. Things have happened to me, people have done every kind of thing to me: praised me, flattered me, kicked me around, everything. It is possible. And as a teacher, as an educator, to see the child, and it is my responsibility as an educator to see he is never hurt, not just teach some beastly subject. This is far more important.	克：但是没有人是不被伤害所局限的，除了极少的几个人。你瞧，先生，我身上曾经发生过很多事情，但我从未被伤害过。我是很谦虚地在实话实说，我不知道受伤是什么意思。我身上发生过很多事情，人们对我做了各种各样的事情：赞美我，恭维我或者粗暴地对待我，各种事情。不受伤是可能的。而作为一个老师，作为一个教育者需要去照看好孩子，作为一个教育者，我的责任是要确保孩子免于伤害，而不只是教一些令人讨厌的课程。这要远远重要多了。
52:15	A: I think I have some grasp of what you are talking about. I don't think I could ever in my wildest dreams say that I have never been hurt. Though I do have difficulty, and have since a child, I have even been taken to task for it - of dwelling on it. I remember a colleague of mine once saying to me with some testiness when we were discussing a situation, in which there was conflict in the faculty: 'Well, the trouble with you is, you see, you can't hate'. And it was looked upon as a disorder in terms of being unable to make a focus towards the enemy in such a way as to devote total attention to that.	安：我觉得我多少理解了一点儿你的意思。我想即使在最疯狂的梦里我也不会说我从未受过伤害，虽然从小到大，我也确实有过一些困难，我甚至遇到过这样的任务——去反复思考这个问题。我记得当我和一个同事在讨论关于教职员工之间冲突的问题时，那个同事曾经有些暴躁地对我说： “啊，你瞧，你的麻烦就在于你不会恨。” 这被看作是一种精神失调，因为你无法以仇恨的方式将焦点对准敌人，无法对那件事情付出全部的注意力。
53:10	K: Sanity is taken for insanity.	克：理智被当成了疯狂。
53:12	A: Yes, so my reply to him was simply, 'Well, that's right, and we might as well face it, and I don't intend to do anything about that'.	安：是的，因此我对他的回答也很简单， “好吧，你说的对，所以我们最好还是面对这一点，因为我并不打算做任何改变”。
53:21	K: Quite, quite, quite. A: But it didn't help the situation in terms of the interrelationship.	克：没错，是的。安：可是这也依然无助于改变我们彼此的关系。
53:25	K: So the question is then: in education, can a teacher, educator, observe his hurts, become aware of them, and in his relationship with the student resolve his hurt and the student's hurt? That's one problem. It is possible, if the teacher is really, in the deep sense of the word, educator, that is, cultivated. And the next question, sir, from that arises: is the mind capable of not being hurt, knowing it has been hurt? You follow? Not add more hurts. Right? A: Yes.	克：所以现在的问题是：在教育中，老师、教育者能否观察他自己的伤害，觉察到它们，然后在他和学生的关系中去解除他的伤害和学生的伤害？这是一个问题。而只有当老师成为真正意义上的教育者，真正有修养时，这才是可能的。但是先生，从这里又出现了下一个问题，那就是：心在知道了它已经受伤了以后，能够不再受伤吗？你跟上了吗？不再增加更多的伤害。对吗？安：对。
54:16	K: I have these two problems: one, being hurt - that is the past - and never to be hurt again. Which doesn't mean I build a wall of resistance, that I withdraw, that I go off into a monastery, or become a drug addict, or some silly thing like that, but no hurt. Is that possible? You see the two questions? Now, what is hurt? What is the thing that is hurt? You follow? A: Yes.	克：这里有两个问题：一个是已经受伤了——这是属于过去的—— 然后永远不再受伤。这并不意味着我要建立一道抵抗伤害的围墙，我要远离尘世，跑到寺庙里去，或者变成一个瘾君子等等诸如此类愚蠢的事，而是不再受伤了。这可能吗？你明白这两个问题了吗？那么，什么是伤害呢？是什么东西受伤了？你跟上了吗？安：是的。
55:00	K: We said the physical hurt is not the same as the psychological. A: No.	克：我们说过生理伤害和心理伤害是不同的。安：是的。
55:04	K: So we are dealing with psychological hurt. What is the thing that is hurt? The psyche? The image which I have about myself?	克：所以我们在探讨的是心理上的伤害。是什么东西受到了伤害？是心灵吗？还是我对自己抱有的形象？
55:19	A: It is an investment that I have in it.	安：它是我对自己的一种投资。
55:21	K: Yes, it's my investment in myself. A: Yes. I've divided myself off from myself. K: Yes, in myself. That means, why should I invest in myself? What is myself? You follow? A: Yes, I do.	克：是的，它是我对自己的一种投资。安：是的。我已经把自己从自己中分离出来了。克：是的，从我自己中。那么，为什么我要投资自我呢？什么是自我？你明白吗？安：是的，我明白。
55:40	K: In which I have to invest something. What is myself? All the words, the names, the qualities, the education, the bank account, the furniture, the house, the hurts - all that is me.	克：我需要在自我中投资一些东西。那么什么是自我呢？所有的那些词语、名字、性格、教育、银行存款、家具、房子，还有伤害——这一切就是“我”。
56:00	A: In an attempt to answer the question 'what is myself', I immediately must resort to all this stuff.	安：在试图去回答“什么是自我”的问题时，我必然立即会想到所有这些内容。
56:05	K: Obviously. A: There isn't any other way. And then I haven't got it. Then I praise myself, because I must be so marvellous as somehow to slip out.	克：显然会如此。安：其他我就想不到什么了。所以我还是没有明白什么是自我。然后我会去赞扬自我，因为我必须要变得足够出色，这样才能以某种方式逃避问题。
56:16	K: Quite, quite. A: I see what you mean. I was thinking just a moment back when you were saying t is possible for the teacher to come into relationship with the student, so that a work of healing or an act of healing happens.	克：很对，非常对。安：我明白你的意思了。我刚才在想，当时你说老师是有可能和学生产生关系的，那样的话疗愈的工作或者行动就会发生。
56:37	K: See, sir, this is what I would do if I were in a class, that's the first thing I would begin with, not some subject! I would say, 'Look, you are hurt and I am hurt, we are both of us hurt'. And point out what hurt does, how it kills people, how it destroys people, out of that there is violence, out of that there is brutality, out of that I want to hurt people. You follow? All that comes in. I would spend ten minutes talking about that every day, in different ways, till both of us see it. Then as an educator I will use the right word, and the student will use the right word, there will be no gesture, there'll be no irritation, we are both involved in it. But we don't do that. The moment we come into class we pick up a book and there it goes off. If I was an educator, whether with the older people or with the younger people, I would establish this relationship. That's my duty, that's my job, that's my function, not just to transmit some information.	克：你看，先生，如果我在课堂上，这就是我要去做的事，这才是我首先要做的事情，而不是教什么科目！我会说，“瞧，你受过伤害，我也受过伤害，我们俩都受过伤”。然后我会指出伤害的影响，它是如何杀害人类、毁灭人类的，从伤害之中产生了暴力，从伤害之中产生了残忍，因为伤害我想去伤害别人。你明白吗？所有这些东西都出来了。我每天会花上十分钟时间从不同的角度来谈这个，直到我们双方都看清为止。那时，作为一个教育者，我会使用正确的词语，而学生们也会使用正确的词语，那时不需要什么姿态，也不需要刺激，我们双方都会投入进去。但是我们没有那么做。我们一走进教室，就拿起一本书开始照本宣科，然后一切都变质了。如果我是一个教育者，不管是教年纪大一些的人，还是教年轻人，我都会先去建立起这种关系。这是我的使命，这是我的工作，这是我的职责，而不只是传递一些信息。
57:58	A: Yes, that's really very profound. I think one of the reasons that what you have said is so difficult for an educator reared within the whole academic...	安：是的，这番话的意义真的非常深远。我认为你所说的东西对于一个在这整个教育环境下培养出来的教育者来说之所以如此困难，原因之一就在于
58:17	K: Yes, because we are so vain! A: Exactly. We want not only to hear that it is possible, for this transformation to take place, but we want it to be regarded as demonstrably proved and therefore not merely possible, but predictably certain.	克：是的，因为我们都是如此虚荣！安：的确如此。我们不仅希望听说这种转变是可能发生的，我们还希望它可以得到明确的证实，所以不只是可能，而且可以预见到是确定无疑的。
58:35	K: Certain, yes.	克：确定无疑，是的。
58:36	A: And then we are back into the whole thing.	安：然后我们就整个倒退回去了。
58:38	K: We are back into the old rotten stuff. Quite right.	克：我们又退回到了陈旧腐败的老一套。没错。
58:41	A: Next time could we take up the relationship of love to this? K: Yes.	安：下次我们能否来谈一下爱与这个问题的关系？克：可以。
58:47	A: I would very much enjoy that, and it would seem to me...	安：我会很高兴探讨这个问题，因为在我看来
58:52	K: ...it will all come together.	克：……那些问题都会一起出现。
58:53	A: Come together, in the gathering together.	安：会一起出现，汇集在一起。