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SD74CA12 - 爱、性及欢愉
与艾伦·W·安德森博士的第十二次对话
美国，加利福尼亚，圣地亚哥
1974年2月25日



0:37 Krishnamurti in Dialogue with Dr. Allan W. Anderson 克里希那穆提与艾伦·W·安德森博士的对话
0:42 J. Krishnamurti was born in South India and educated in England. For the past 40 years he has been speaking in the United States, Europe, India, Australia, and other parts of the world. From the outset of his life's work he repudiated all connections with organised religions and ideologies and said that his only concern was to set man absolutely unconditionally free. He is the author of many books, among them The Awakening of Intelligence, The Urgency of Change, Freedom From the Known, and The Flight of the Eagle. This is one of a series of dialogues between Krishnamurti and Dr. Allan W. Anderson, who is professor of religious studies at San Diego State University where he teaches Indian and Chinese scriptures and the oracular tradition. Dr. Anderson, a published poet, received his degree from Columbia University and the Union Theological Seminary. He has been honoured with the distinguished Teaching Award from the California State University. J·克里希那穆提出生于南印度， 之后在英国接受教育。 在过去的40年里， 他在美国、 欧洲、印度、澳大利亚以及世界其他很多地方做过演讲。 从他毕生工作的一开始， 他就与 所有组织化的宗教和意识形态断绝了关系， 然后宣称他唯一关心的是 让人类彻底地、无条件地自由。 他出版了很多著作， 其中包括：《智慧的觉醒》、 《转变的紧迫性》、《从已知中解脱》 和《鹰的翱翔》。 这是克里希那穆提和 艾伦·W·安德森博士的系列对话之一。 安德森博士是宗教学教授， 任教于圣地亚哥州立大学， 教授印度与中国的经典， 以及传统神谕文化。 安德森博士出版过诗作， 在哥伦比亚大学 和纽约协和神学院获得学位。 他也曾获得过加利福尼亚州立大学 所颁发的杰出教育奖。
1:48 A: Mr. Krishnamurti, in our last conversation we were talking about religion as a phenomenon in relation to our concern for enquiring into the transformation of each individual human being, a transformation that is not dependent on knowledge or time, and during our discussion of religion you were speaking about what you regarded to be religion in the true sense, its relation to the act of attention and how, when the whole personal history of hurt is a reference, this act of attention simply is vitiated, it cannot come to pass. And through the discussion of hurt that we had we touched towards the end of the discussion on love, and if it's agreeable with you, perhaps we could explore this question of love now. 安：克里希那穆提先生，在我们上次的谈话中， 我们把宗教现象 和我们所关心的 人类个体转变的问题联系起来谈了一下， 那种转变是 不依赖于知识或者时间的， 而在我们关于宗教的讨论中， 你谈到了 你所认为的真正意义上的宗教， 以及它与关注行动的关系， 还有，当把个人受伤的整个经历 作为一种参考来看， 那种关注的行动是如何被破坏的， 从而使得这种行动无法实现。 而在关于伤害的讨论过程中， 我们最后谈到了爱的问题， 如果你愿意的话， 或许现在我们就可以来探索一下爱的问题了。
3:00 K: Sir, when you use the word 'explore', are we using that word intellectually, exploring with the intellect, or exploring in relation to the word and seeing in that word the mirror, which will reveal ourselves in that mirror? 克：先生，当你使用“探索”这个词时， 我们只是从思想上使用这个词， 用智力去探索呢， 还是把自己和词语联系起来去探索， 把那个词作为一面 揭示出我们自己的镜子呢？
3:30 A: I hope the latter.

K: Yes. That is, the word is the mirror, in which I, as a human being, am observing. So the word 'explore' really means observing myself in the mirror of the word which you have used. So the word then becomes the thing, not just a word by itself.

A: Right. 		安：我希望是后者。

克：很好。 也就是说，词语就是一面镜子， 而我作为一个人在这面镜子中观察着。 所以“探索”这个词其实意味着 在你所用词语的镜子中去观察自己。 那时词语就会变得实在， 而不只是一个词而已。

安：对。
4:06 K: And therefore it is not intellectual exploration, a theoretical explanation. 克：因此这并不是一种智力上的探索， 或者一种理论上的解释。
4:14 A: It could be the beginning of a meditation. 安：这也许就是冥想的开始。
4:17 K: That's what I want to make quite clear.

A: Yes. Well, that is where I would want to be in relationship to the subject.

K: Yes. And exploring also means: the mind must be very serious, not caught up in the mere desire to achieve something, to know how to love, how to acquire the neighbour's love. You follow, sir?

A: Yes. Become a successful lover. 		克：这就是我想说明的东西。

安：是的。 我想从这里开始探讨这个问题。

克：可以。 此外，探索同样也意味着心智必须非常认真， 而不仅仅只是渴望得到某些东西： 比如学会如何去爱， 如何获得邻居的爱。 你明白吗，先生？

安：是的。 如何成为一个成功的爱心人士。
4:56 K: Successful lover, yes. So, I think - when we explore that word, and the meaning, the significance of it - one has to be very, very serious about this matter, because they are using this word so loosely, it has become so corrupt - love of God, love of my wife, love of my property, love of my country, I love to read, I love to go to the cinema - you follow? And one of our difficulties is modern education is not making us serious. We are becoming specialists: I am a first class doctor, first class surgeon, first class physician, and so on, so on. But the specialist becomes a menace that way. 克：成功的爱心人士，是的。 所以，我认为——当我们探索“爱”这个词， 探索它的价值和意义时—— 我们必须非常非常认真地对待这个问题， 因为人们是如此随意地使用这个词， 它已经变得如此堕落 ——爱上帝，爱妻子， 爱我的财产，爱我的国家， 我爱看书，我爱看电影——你明白吗？ 而我们的困难之一就在于 现代教育并没有使我们变得认真。 我们只是变成了专家而已： 我是一流的医生，一流的外科医生 或者内科医生，等等。 但是那样的专家会变成一种危险。
5:55 A: A learned ignoramus.

K: Yes. And education, as we were saying previously, is to encourage, to see that the human mind is serious. Serious to find out what it means to live, not just become a specialist. So, if that is all understood, and much more, what is love? Is love pleasure? Is love the expression of desire? Is love sexual appetite fulfilled? Is love the pursuit of a desired end? The identification with a family, with a woman, with a man? Is love a thing that can be cultivated? That can be made to grow when I have no love, I think about it, I do all kinds of things to it, so that I will know how to love my neighbour? 		安：一个博学多才的无知之人。

克：是的。 而就如我们之前所说的，教育 是要去激发，去确保人的心智是认真的。 认真地去发现生活的意义， 而不只是变成一个专家。 所以，如果这点已经明确了， 那么更进一步地说，什么是爱呢？ 爱是欢愉吗？ 爱是表达欲望吗？ 爱是满足性欲吗？ 爱是追求某个渴望的目标吗？ 爱是认同于家庭，认同于一个女人或者男人吗？ 爱是一种可以去培育的东西吗？ 是不是当我没有爱的时候，我可以去栽培爱， 我可以去思考它，去想方设法追求它， 然后我就会知道如何去爱我的邻居？
7:34 A: We sometimes hear the admonition that one has to work at it. Yes. In terms of our conversations up to now that would be a denial of it. 安：我们有时会听到类似的箴言 说人必须要努力地追求爱。 是的。但就我们到目前为止的谈话来看， 这种说法也许正是对爱的否定。
7:47 K: So, is love pleasure? And apparently it is, now. 克：那么，爱是欢愉吗？ 很显然现在的爱就是欢愉。
7:58 A: It seems to have been debased to that. 安：爱似乎已经被降低到了欢愉的层次。
7:59 K: I mean, actually it is, that is what we call love. Love of God. I don't know what God is and yet I am supposed to love him. And therefore I transfer my pleasures - of the world, of things, of sex - to a higher level which I call God. It is still pleasure! So what is pleasure in relation to love? What is enjoyment in relation to love? What is joy, the unconscious feeling of joy? The moment I recognise joy it is gone. And what is the relationship of joy, enjoyment and pleasure with love? Unless we understand that we shan't understand what love is. 克：我的意思是我们所谓的爱实际上就是欢愉。 比如对上帝的爱。 其实我并不知道上帝是什么， 但我却假设我是爱他的。 因此我把我的欢愉 ——世俗的、物质的快乐和性快感——都转移到了 一个我叫做上帝的更高的层次。但那仍旧是欢愉！ 所以欢愉和爱的关系是什么？ 喜悦和爱的关系是什么？ 什么是喜悦，那种无意识的喜悦感？ 一旦我认出了喜悦，它就已经离去了。 那么喜悦、欢乐、欢愉，它们和爱到底 有什么关系？ 除非我们了解了这些， 否则我们永远无法了解爱是什么。
9:07 A: Yes, yes, I have followed you. 安：是的，是的，我跟上你了。
9:12 K: And take what is happening. Love has been identified with sex, love-making, love sexually - you follow, sir? 克：看看现在发生的事情吧。 爱已经和性， 和做爱、性爱等同起来了——你明白吗，先生？
9:24 A: The very construction: love-making, making love. 安：这些词语的构成便是如此：做-爱，性-爱
9:28 K: It's a horrible thing! I feel it gives me a shock: 'love-making', as though that was love. You see, sir, I think this is very important, the Western civilisation has put this over the whole of the earth, through cinemas, through books, through pornography, through every kind of advertisements, stories, this sense of love is identification with sex, which is pleasure, basically. 克：这真是一件可怕的事情！ 我感到很震惊： “做-爱”，好像那就是爱一样。 你看，先生，我认为这是非常重要的， 西方文明 已经把这种文化传播到了整个世界， 通过电影，通过书籍，通过色情业， 通过各种广告和故事， 爱已经和性划上了等号。 而性本质上只是一种欢愉。
10:13 A: The whole glamour industry is based on that. 安：整个时尚产业就是建立在这之上的。
10:15 K: On that.

A: On that. 		克：的确如此。

安：的确。
10:16 K: All the cinema, you know, the whole thing. So can the mind - again, we must come back to the point - can the mind understand the nature of pleasure and its relationship to love? Can the mind that is pursuing pleasure, an ambitious mind, a competitive mind, a mind that says, I must get something out of life, I must reward myself and others, I must compete. Can such a mind love? It can love sexually. But is love of sex, is that the only thing? And why have we made sex such an enormous affair? Volumes are written on it. Unless really one goes into this very, very deeply, the other thing is not possible even to understand. We can talk endlessly about what love is, what love is not, theoretically. But if we use the word 'love' as a mirror to see what is happening inwardly, and I inevitably must ask the question whether it is pleasure - in its multiple forms. Can a man who is top executive, got to that position through drive, through aggression, through deception, through ruthlessness, can he know what love is? And can the priest, who talks everlastingly of God, he is ambitious to become a bishop, archbishop or whatever, his ambitions are to sit next to Jesus. 克：所有的电影，你知道的，所有的事情。 所以心智——我们还是必须回到重点—— 那就是心智能够了解欢愉的本质 以及它和爱的关系吗？ 那个追求欢愉的心智， 那个野心勃勃、争强好胜的心智， 那个说我必须从生活中有所得， 我必须奖赏自己和他人，我必须竞争的心智。 这样的一个心智能够去爱吗？ 它可以有性爱。 但性爱就是全部吗？ 而为什么我们把性变成了一件如此重大的事情？ 无数的书籍都在描写它。 除非我们真的非常深入地探究这个问题， 否则我们是不可能了解另一个事物的。 我们可以无止尽地在理论上探讨什么是爱， 什么不是爱。 但是如果我们把“爱”这个词作为一面镜子 来看一下自己内在所发生的事情的话， 那么不可避免地我就一定会问这个问题： 爱是不是欢愉——各种不同形式的欢愉。 一个通过强迫、 攻击、欺骗、 残忍而爬到最高位置的人， 他能知道什么是爱吗？ 牧师在喋喋不休地谈论着上帝， 他野心勃勃地想要成为主教、 大主教或者无论什么，他渴望 和耶稣平起平坐。
12:37 A: Who will sit on the right hand.

K: Right hand. So can that priest who talks about it know what love means? 		安：成为坐在耶稣右边的人。

克：坐在他右边的人。 那么这样一个高谈着爱的牧师能知道爱的意义吗？
12:45 A: No, he thinks he can with reference to something called a higher love, which is based on a denial of a lower one. 安：不，但他觉得他能知道， 就那种所谓的“大爱”而言， 而那种“大爱”是建立在否定“小爱”的基础之上的。
12:55 K: Yes, I mean that's just words.

A: So that's conflict. In that conflict there can be no love. 		克：是的，但我想说那仅仅是文字而已。

安：所以这里就有了冲突。 在这种冲突之中是不可能有爱的。
13:02 K: So, then our whole social, moral structure is immoral! 克：所以我们整个社会和道德的结构都是不道德的！
13:11 A: Oh yes.

K: I mean, sir, this is a thing that is appalling! And nobody wants to change that. On the contrary, they say, yes, let's carry on, put on a lot of coating on it, different colours, more pleasant, and let's carry on. So, if a man is really concerned to come upon this thing called love, he must negate this whole thing, which means he must understand the place of pleasure, whether intellectual pleasure, acquisition of knowledge as pleasure, acquisition of a position as power, you follow? The whole thing. And how is a mind that has been trained, conditioned, sustained in this rotten... social conditioning, how can it free itself before it talks about love? It must first free itself of that. Otherwise your talk of love, it's just another word, it has no meaning! 		安：哦，是的。

克：先生，我的意思是 这件事非常可怕！ 但却没有人想要去改变它。 相反，他们说，没事，让我们继续这样吧， 层层粉饰它， 给它涂上各种更令人愉悦的色彩， 然后继续这样下去。 所以，如果一个人真的关心 遇到这个被称为爱的东西， 那么他就必须否定所有这一切， 那意味着他必须理解欢愉的位置， 不管是思想上的欢愉， 获得知识的欢愉， 还是获得权力地位的欢愉，你明白吗？ 所有这些事情。 而一个一直以来被训练、局限 和维持在这个腐败的社会环境中的心智， 在它可以去谈论爱之前，要如何才能把自己先解脱出来呢？ 它必须首先把自己解脱出来。 否则你对爱的谈论 只是另一套空谈，那毫无意义！
14:42 A: We do seem, in Western culture particularly, to be very sex-bound. On the one hand, we are threatened with unhappiness, if we don't succeed sexually. 安：看起来我们的确被性深深地束缚住了—— 特别是西方文明。 一方面，如果我们没法在性上获得满足， 我们会害怕自己不幸福。
14:59 K: Sexually, yes. That's right. 克：性满足，是的。很对。
15:01 A: Yet on the other hand, the whole history of clinical psychology focuses precisely on the pathology of sexuality... 安：然而另一方面， 临床心理学的整个历史却 恰恰一直在着重研究性欲的病理
15:11 K: Of course.

A: ...as somehow able, in itself, as a study, to free us. The interrelationship between those two activities, the desire to succeed on the one hand, and the necessity to study what's the matter with the drive on the other, brings about a paralysis. 		克：当然。

安：……期望通过对于 性本身的研究，能以某种方式把我们解放出来。 这两种行为之间的关系， ——一方面渴望性的满足， 而另一方面又需要去研究 性欲的冲动有什么问题—— 这使我们感到瘫痪无力。
15:35 K: So you see, this thing, sex, has become, I don't know, of such enormous importance right through the world now. In Asia they cover it up. They don't talk about it there. If you talk about sex, it is something wrong. Here you talk endlessly about it. But there you don't, certain things you don't talk about - you talk about it in the bedroom, or perhaps not even in the bedroom. But you never, I mean, it's not done. And when I talk in India, I bring it out. They are a little bit shocked, because a religious man is not supposed to deal with all that kind of stuff. 克：所以你看，遍及世界， 如今性这个东西已经变得如此重要， 我不知道为什么会这样。 而在亚洲人们却要掩盖它。 他们对此避而不谈。 如果你谈论关于性的事情，这是一种错误。 你们在这里无止尽地谈论它。 但在那里你是不能谈论它的， 某些事情是不能谈论的 ——你只在卧室里谈论， 甚至在卧室里也不谈论。 但是，我想说，问题并没有因此而解决。 当我在印度演讲的时候，我谈到了性的问题。 人们感到有点震惊，因为 他们认为一个宗教人士是不应该 谈论这些事情的。
16:23 A: He is supposed to be beyond that. 安：他应该已经超越了性。
16:26 K: He is supposed to be, but he mustn't talk about it. That's one of the things, sir, why has sex become so important? You see, love is, after all, a sense of total absence of the 'me', total absence of the me - my ego, my ambitions, my greed - all that, which is me, total negation of all that. Negation, not brutal denial or surgical operation, but the understanding of all that. When the 'me' is not, the other is. Obviously. It's so simple! You know, sir, the Christian sign, the cross, - I was told - is a very ancient symbol, previous to Christian acceptance of that symbol.

A: Yes. 		克：他应该已经超越了，但他就是不能谈论性。 这就是问题之一，先生， 为什么性会变得如此重要呢？ 你看，爱从本质上来说 就是一种“自我”完全缺席的感觉， 那个“我”完全消失了 ——我的自我，我的野心，我的贪婪—— 所有这些“我”的东西，这一切都被否定了。 但这种否定并不是野蛮的拒绝，也不是通过外科手术而来， 而是对那一切的了解。 当那个“我”不在了，那么另一个事物就会显现。 显然如此，这太简单了！ 你知道，先生，基督教的符号，那个十字架 ——这是别人告诉我的——它是一个非常古老的符号， 在基督教徒接受了那个符号之前就已存在了。

安：是的。
17:28 K: It meant, wipe out the 'I'. 克：它意味着，抹除那个“我”。
17:33 A: I had never heard of that. Wipe out.

K: Wipe out the 'I', the me. The 'I', wipe it out. You understand, sir?

A: Yes. In a non-canonical statement of Jesus it's written that he remarked that unless you make your up down and your down up, your right left, left right, the complete total turning of something upside down that one has been accustomed to do - a 180 degree turn - then one doesn't come to the kingdom of heaven, which, of course, in his language, is not over here to be expected. He said precisely, it doesn't come by observations, it's not here, it's not there, it's within one - in the Greek it doesn't mean 'in' as a locus, but it is a presence. 		安：这我倒没听说过： 抹掉“我”。

克：抹掉那个“我”，那个自己。 那个“我”，把它抹去。 你明白吗，先生？

安：明白。 在耶稣非正统教义的记载中， 他曾说过： 除非你让自己上下颠倒， 左右互换， 彻底改变那些 你已习惯的东西——来个180度的大转弯—— 否则你是无法达到天国的， 当然了，他也说到，天国并不是 你可以从这里去期盼的东西。 他明确地说，你是无法通过观察到达天国的， 它既不在这里，也不在那里，它存在于你的内在， ——在希腊语中，“内在”的意思并不是 位置意义上的“里面”，而是一种显现。
18:28 K: It is a presence.

A: Yes. 		克：它是一种存在。

安：是的。
18:30 K: So when we are enquiring into this question of love, we must enquire into pleasure, pleasure in all its varieties, and its relationship to love, enjoyment to love, real joy, this thing which can never be invited, and its relation to love. So we had better begin with pleasure. That is, the world has made sex into an immense thing. And the priests, right through the world, have denied it. They won't look at a woman, though they are burning inside with lust and all kinds of things. They shut their eyes. They say, only a man who is a celibate can go to God. Think of the absurdity of such a statement! So anybody who has sex is damned forever. 克：因此当我们探询这个关于爱的问题时， 我们也必须探究欢愉 及其各种不同的形式， 以及它和爱的关系，探询喜悦和爱的关系—— 真正的喜悦，这种无法邀请而来的东西， 它和爱的关系。 所以我们最好从欢愉开始。 那就是， 这个世界已经把性变成了如此重大的一件事情。 全世界所有的神职人员都在否定它。 他们不看任何女人， 虽然他们欲火中烧， 饥渴难耐。 他们闭上自己的眼睛。 他们说，只有禁欲独身的人才能找到上帝。 想想这种说法的荒谬吧！ 如果这样的话每一个有性行为的人都永远被诅咒了。
19:53 A: Then you have to invent some story as to how it was, we so-called, fell into it. 安：于是他就必须编造一些故事 来解释我们所谓的“堕入原罪”是怎么回事。
19:59 K: Fell into it, or the Virgin Mary - you follow? - the whole idea. 克：堕入原罪或者 圣母玛利亚的故事——你明白吗？——这一整套思想。
20:03 A: Yes, the whole thing.

K: Which is a farce! So why have we made it such a fantastic romantic, sentimental affair - sex? Is it because intellectually we are crippled? We are second-hand people. You follow, sir? I repeat what Plato, Aristotle, Buddha, somebody said, and therefore my mind, intellectually, is third rate! 		安：是的，所有这些东西。

克：而这就是一场闹剧！ 那么我们又为什么要把性变成了一件如此充满幻想的、 浪漫的、多愁善感的事情呢？ 是不是因为我们的心智是残缺的？ 我们是二手的人类。你明白吗，先生？ 我重复柏拉图、亚里士多德、佛陀或者某某某所说的话， 因此在思想上，我只有一个三流的心智！
20:44 A: Exactly.

K: So it is never free. So intellectually I am a slave. Emotionally I become romantic. I become sentimental. And the only escape is sex, where I am free, if the woman or the man agrees, if they are compatible, then it is the only road, only door, through which I say, for God's sake, at least I am free here. In the office I am bullied - you follow, sir? - in the factory I just turn the wheels. So this is the only escape for me. The peasant in India, the poor villager in town or in villages, look at them, that is the only thing they have. And religion is something else: I agree, we should be celibate, we should be - all the rest of it, but for God's sake, leave us alone with our pleasures, with our sex. So if that is so, and it looks like that, that we are intellectually, morally, spiritually crippled human beings, degenerate, and this is the only thing that gives us some release, some freedom. In other fields I have no freedom. I have to go to the office every day. I have to go to the factory every day. I have to - you follow? - cinema once, three times a week, or whatever it is you do, you've got... and here, at last, I am a man, woman. So I have made this thing into an enormous affair. And, if I am not sexual, I have to find out why I am not sexual, I spend years to find out! You follow, sir? Books are written. It has become a nauseating thing, a stupid thing. And we have to, also, in relation to that, find out what is celibacy? Because they have all talked about it. Every religion has talked about it: that you must be celibate. And they said, Christian religion said: Jesus was born immaculate. You follow it? And the Buddhists, I don't know if you ever heard of the story that the Buddha's mother conceived because she... not out of human relationship, but out of... - the same thing! They don't want sex to be associated with a religion. And yet every priest is burning with it! And they said, you must be celibate. They take a vow of celibacy. I told you the story of that poor monk.

A: Oh yes, yes. A deeply moving story.

K: And what is celibacy? Is it in there, in your heart and your mind? Or just the act? 		安：的确如此。

克：因此它永远都不自由。 所以思想上我是一个奴隶。 于是感情上我就变得浪漫 和多愁善感。 然后性就成为了唯一的逃避，在那里我是自由的， 如果男女双方同意， 如果他们能够彼此相容，那么性就成为了唯一的道路和大门， 穿过那道门，我说，看在老天的份上， 至少我在这里是自由的。 在办公室里，我备受欺凌——先生，你明白吗？—— 在工厂里，我也只是机械地操作。 所以性成为了我唯一的逃避。 印度的乡下人，小镇或者村庄里贫穷的村民们， 看看他们，那是他们唯一拥有的东西。 而宗教领域里又是另一番情景： 我同意我们应该禁欲独身， 我们应该如何如何等等，但是看在老天的份上， 请让我们继续保留我们的各种欢愉和性吧。 所以如果是这样的话——似乎我们就是这样的， 那么这说明我们在思想上、道德上 和精神上都已经成为了残废 和堕落的人类，于是性就成为了能够 给予我们某种释放和自由的唯一途径。 在其他各个领域里我都没有自由。 我必须每天去办公室上班。 我必须每天去工厂干活。 我必须——你明白吗？——每个星期去一次或者三次电影院， 无论你做什么事，你都 而最后只有在这里，我才是一个男人或者女人。 于是我把这件事变得很重大。 如果我性欲不强，我就必须去搞清楚为什么我性欲不振， 我花费了许多年去寻求答案！ 你明白吗，先生？很多书都是探讨这个的。 这已经变成了一件令人作呕的、愚蠢之极的事情。 而与之有关的是，我们也必须去发现 什么是禁欲独身？ 因为人们都在谈论着它。 每一个宗教都谈论它：你必须禁欲独身。 他们说， 基督教说：耶稣生于处女之身。 你明白吗？ 而佛教徒们则说， 我不知道你是否听过这个故事， 那就是佛陀母亲的怀孕 不是通过男女关系而来的，而是通过……就跟基督教的说法一样！ 他们不想把宗教和性牵涉在一起。 然而每一个神职人员却都欲火中烧！ 他们说，你必须要禁欲独身。 他们发誓独身。 我跟你讲过那个可怜僧侣的故事。

安：哦，是的，记得。 一个很触动人心的故事。

克：什么是禁欲独身呢？ 它在那里吗，在你的内心和你的头脑中吗？或者只是外在的行为？
24:40 A: If I have been following you correctly, it seems to me that you pointed to sex here as undergone in a utilitarian way. It's a means to and therefore since... 安：如果我没理解错的话， 在我看来 你在这里似乎指出性已经成了一种功利主义的方式。 它成了一种手段，由此
24:58 K: A routine, an insistence, encouragement, you follow? 克：由此它成为了一种例行公事，一种坚持，一种激励，你明白吗？
25:03 A: Yes. Always a goal that lies outside the activity. Therefore it can never be caught up to.

K: Quite right. Therefore conflict. 		安：是的。在那种行为之外总是存在着一个目的。 所以它永远无法被领会。

克：非常正确。 因此就会有冲突。
25:12 A: Therefore conflict and repetition. 安：因此就会有冲突和重复。
25:14 K: And therefore, what is celibacy? Is it the act or the mind that is chaste? You follow, sir? 克：所以，什么是独身禁欲呢？ 它是指行动，还是指纯真的心？ 你明白吗，先生？
25:27 A: It must be the mind.

K: Chaste - chaste mind. Which means a tremendously austere mind. Not the austerity of severity and ruthless acceptance of a principle, and all the rest of it. 		安：它必然指的是心智。

克：纯真——纯真的心。 那意味着一颗极度简朴的心。 而不是那种严苛的苦行 和对于教条的决绝接受， 等等所有这些。
25:48 A: This goes back to the earlier conversation when we were talking about hurt.

K: That's right. 		安：这又回到了我们之前 关于伤害的对话了。

克：是的。
25:52 A: The chaste mind would never be hurt.

K: Never. And therefore an innocent mind. Which has no picture of the woman, or the man, or the act, none of that imagination. 		安：一颗纯真的心永远不会受伤。

克：永远不会。 所以它是一个单纯的心智。 它没有关于女人、男人或者性行为的意象， 没有任何此类的幻想。
26:14 A: This is very, very fundamental. I know in our conversations that I keep bringing up things that I've read and studied, because that has largely been the occupation of my life. And the thing that moves me so deeply in listening to you is that so many of the things that have been said over the centuries, and written over the centuries, ought to have been understood in the way that you've been presenting them. We even have a tradition for instance in Christian theology that what is called the fall of man began at the point of imagination. 安：这番话 真的非常彻底。 我知道在我们的谈话中 我总是不断抛出那些我读过和研究过的东西， 这多半是我此生的职业使然。 而你的讲话所深深触动我的是， 很多东西 被谈论了数个世纪、被描述了数个世纪， 它们其实本应该 以你所讲述的方式来加以理解。 举例来说，甚至在基督教神学中， 我们也有一种传统的说法， 叫做：人的堕落 始于幻想。
27:04 K: Right. 克：对。
27:05 A: And yet that hasn't been properly understood, it seems to me. Otherwise had it been properly understood, we would not be in this immense conflict that we are in. 安：然而在我看来，这句话一直没有被 正确地理解。 否则的话 我们就不会陷入于如今这巨大的冲突之中了。
27:19 K: Christians have first invented the sin and then all the rest of it. 克：然而基督教徒们首先做的却是发明了罪恶的概念 等等这些东西。
27:23 A: It has been the cart before the horse. Yes, I do see what you are saying. 安：所以这就本末倒置了。 是的，我明白你的意思。
27:30 K: So, can the mind be chaste? Not - can the mind take a vow of celibacy and have burning desires - you follow? And we talked the other day about desire. We are burning with desire. All our glands are full of it. So, chastity means a mind that has no hurt, no image, no sense of pictures of itself, its appetites, all that. Can such a mind exist in this world? Otherwise love is not. I can talk endlessly about love of Jesus, love of this, love of that, but it becomes so shoddy. 克：那么，心能够变得纯真吗？ 而不是——心智能否宣誓禁欲 但却仍旧欲火中烧——你明白吗？ 前几天我们谈到了欲望。 我们内心的欲望在熊熊燃烧。 我们所有的腺体都充满着欲望。 所以纯真意味着一颗 没有伤害、没有想象、 没有自我和欲望等等意象的心。 这样的心能够存在于这个世界吗？ 否则的话爱就不可能存在。 我可以无止尽地谈论耶稣之爱， 爱这个，爱那个，但这变得如此虚假卑劣。
28:39 A: Because it's love of. 安：因为那是有对象的爱。
28:40 K: Yes.

A: Yes. Love as an activity is not the same as love undertaken as a means.

K: Yes, sir. So is love pleasure? I can only answer: it is not, when I have understood pleasure. And understand not verbally, but deeply, inwardly, see the nature of it, the brutality of it, the divisive process of it. Because pleasure is always divisive. Enjoyment is never divisive. Joy is never dividing. It is only pleasure that is dividing. When you listen to an Arab about the oil, the energy, it is his pride - you follow? You see it is... And you see it in the ministers, in the politicians, this whole sense of arrogance, of power. And at the same time they talk about love. 		克：是的。

安：嗯， 作为行动的爱和 作为手段的爱是不同的。

克：是的，先生。 所以爱是欢愉吗？ 我只能回答：它不是， 当我了解了欢愉。 不是从文字上了解，而是从内在深刻地了解了它， 看清了它的本质，它的残忍， 它分裂的过程。 因为欢愉总是会导致分裂。 而喜悦永远不会导致分裂。 喜悦永远不会去分裂。 只有欢愉才是分裂的。 当你听到阿拉伯人谈论石油，谈论能源时， 他会骄傲无比——你明白吗？ 你瞧这是 你会在那些大臣和政客身上发现 所有的傲慢感和权力感。 然而与此同时他们却在谈论着爱。
30:04 A: But it's always love of. 安：而那种爱总是有对象的。
30:05 K: Of course, love of, or... I don't know what they mean anyhow. It has no meaning. They say, love of my country, and my love is going to kill you! 克：当然了，有对象或者 我不知道他们到底是什么意思。那没有任何意义。 他们说，我爱我的国家， 然而这种爱却要去杀戮别人！
30:18 A: Yes, yes. 安：是的，的确如此。
30:22 K: So, you see, sir, we have to understand this killing too. The Western civilisation has made killing a perfect art. The war, science of war. They have taught the whole world this. And probably the Christians are the greatest killers after Muslims, and, I believe, the real religious, the original Buddhists were really non-killers. 克：所以你看，先生，我们也必须了解这种杀戮。 西方文明已经把杀戮变成了一门完美的艺术。 战争，战争的科学。 他们把这些东西教给了全世界。 也许基督教徒是继穆斯林之后 最大的刽子手。 而我相信，真正的宗教人士， 原始的佛教徒真的是不杀生的。
31:05 A: Yes. 安：是的。
31:06 K: The only religion that said, don't kill, and keep it! I must tell you this lovely story. I was several years ago in Ceylon, and a Buddhist couple came to see me. They said, we have got one major problem. We are Buddhist by practice. And they said, we don't kill, but we eat meat. I said, what do you mean? He said, we change our butchers. We change our butchers, therefore we are not responsible. 克：佛教是唯一说“不要杀生并且恪守这点！”的宗教。 我必须告诉你这个有趣的故事。 几年前在锡兰（即现在的斯里兰卡）， 有一对佛教徒夫妇来见我。 他们说，我们有一个大问题。 我们是佛教修行者。 我们不杀生，但是我们吃肉。 我说，你想说什么？ 他说，我们更换卖肉的屠夫。 我们换了屠夫，所以我们就不需要为此负责了。
31:55 A: Amazing.

K: And we like meat. I said, is that the problem? He said, no, not at all. Our problem is: should we eat a fertilised egg because that contains life? 		安：真令人惊讶。

克：而我们喜欢吃肉。 于是我说，这是问题吗？他说，不，这根本不是问题。 我们的问题是： 我们应该吃包含了生命的受过精的鸡蛋吗？
32:08 A: Oh, dear me.

K: Just, sir... When we talk about love, we must also talk about violence and killing. We kill, we have destroyed the earth - you understand, sir?- polluted the earth. We have wiped away species of animals and birds, we are killing baby seals, you've seen them on television?

A: Oh, I have. Yes. 		安：噢，我的天哪。

克：这真是，先生 当我们谈论爱的时候， 我们必须同样去探讨暴力和杀戮。 我们杀戮，我们破坏了这个地球 ——你明白吗，先生？——我们污染了地球。 我们已经使很多动物和鸟类灭绝了， 我们还残杀幼年海豹， 你在电视上看到过它们吗？

安：哦，是的，我看过。
32:43 K: How a human being can do such a thing... 克：人类怎么能做这种事情呢
32:46 A: It's deeply shocking. 安：那非常让人震惊。
32:48 K: ...for some woman to put on that fur. And he will go back and say, 'I love my wife'. And we are trained to kill. All the generals, they are preparing endlessly means of killing others. That's our civilisation, you follow, sir? So, can a man who is ambitious love? 克：……就为了让某个女人可以穿上它的皮毛。 然后他回家后就可以说，“我爱我的妻子”。 而我们被训练去杀戮。 所有的将军都在无休止地准备着 杀戮他人的手段。 这就是我们的文明，你明白吗，先生？ 所以，一个野心勃勃的人能够去爱吗？
33:30 A: No.

K: No. Therefore finish with ambition! They won't, they want both. Therefore that means: don't kill under any circumstances, don't kill an animal! To eat... I have never eaten meat in my life, never. I don't know what it tastes like even. Not that I am proud that I am vegetarian or anything, but I couldn't do it. And killing has become an industry, killing animals to feed human beings. You follow, sir? 		安：不能。

克：不能。所以 不要再有野心了！ 但是人们不会那么做，他们想要两者兼得。 所以这就意味着：不要 在任何情况下去杀戮，不要杀害动物！去吃 我这一生中从未吃过肉，一次也没有。 我甚至都不知道它的味道是怎样的。 并不是我为自己是一个素食者或者是什么而感到骄傲， 而是我无法让自己吃肉。 屠宰已经变成了一个产业， 屠宰动物来作为人类的食物。你明白吗，先生？
34:16 A: Yes. It has, right. I was thinking as you were speaking, about chastity, and it came to me that the chaste mind would have to be an undivided mind. 安：是的。的确如此。 当你在谈论纯真的时候， 我忽然想到了一点， 那就是纯真的心应该是一颗没有分裂的心。
34:38 K: Yes, sir. Killing and loving. 克：是的，先生。一边屠杀一边爱，这样的分裂。
34:42 A: And trying to get them together. And then taking all manner of means to palliate my obvious failure to get them together. 安：并且试图把这两者结合到一起。 然后想方设法地 掩饰自己明显的过错 以此来融合两者。
34:59 K: Of course. 克：毫无疑问是这样的。
35:04 A: The enormity of what you have brought out is truly staggering, and this I would like to stay with for a second, if you don't mind. I've been listening very intently. It's that your radical counsel to make this stop in oneself is so radical that it requires a kind of seriousness that is not a quantitative relationship to seriousness. In fact, we don't really understand what that word means. The relationship between seriousness and love has been coming into my awareness here. 安：你所提到的这些暴行 真的让人很惊愕， 如果你不介意的话， 我想在这里稍微停一下。 我一直在全神贯注地听你讲话。 你根本性的忠告， 即让这些在自己身上停止， 这个忠告是如此彻底， 它需要一种认真， 而这种认真无法用量来衡量。 而事实上，我们并没有真正了解“认真”这个词的意思。 于是这里我忽然意识到了 爱和认真的关系这个问题。
36:09 K: Yes, sir, if I am serious, then I will never kill, and love then has become... is something... it is really compassion. Passion for all, compassion means passion for all. 克：是的，先生，如果我是认真的，那么我就永远不会去杀戮， 那时爱就会变成某种 那实际上就是慈悲。 对万物的爱，慈悲意味着对万物的激情。
36:30 A: When you say one will never kill if he loves, you mean within the context of this image-making activity where one kills by design. 安：当你说一个人有爱就不会去杀戮的时候， 你说的是在这种意象构建行为的背景下 人们有计划的杀戮活动。
36:40 K: Yes, not only... Sir, suppose, my sister - I have no sister, but - my sister is attacked, a man comes to rape her. I will act at that moment.

A: Precisely. 		克：是的，不只是……先生，假设 我的妹妹——我没有妹妹，但是——假设我的妹妹遭到了袭击， 一个男人要强奸她。 那么我就会立刻采取行动。

安：那肯定的。
36:54 K: My intelligence, because I love, have compassion, that compassion creates that intelligence, that intelligence will operate at that moment. If you tell me, what will you do if your sister is attacked, I will say, I don't know. I will know then! 克：那种行动源自于我的智慧，因为我有爱和慈悲， 那种慈悲就创造出了这种智慧， 这种智慧就会在那个时刻发挥作用。 假如你问我，如果你的妹妹遭遇了袭击 你会怎么办的话， 我会告诉你我不知道。到那时候我自然就知道了！
37:15 A: Yes, I quite follow that, I quite follow that. But we have made an industry of designing. 安：是的，我完全明白，完全明白。 但是我们已经打造了一个有计划的杀戮产业。
37:22 K: Designed killing. 克：有计划的杀戮。
37:24 A: On all levels, not only ourselves.

K: I don't know. I saw the other day on the television, in the Red Square there was an enormous intercontinental missile, shot off to kill god knows, blind killing. And the Americans have it, the Indians have it, the French have it, you follow? 		安：在各个层面上，不只是屠杀人类。

克：我不知道是怎么回事。 前几天我在电视上看到 在莫斯科红场发射了一枚巨型的 洲际导弹， 去打击天知道什么东西，漫无目的的杀戮。 而美国人也有洲际导弹，印度人也有， 法国人也有，你明白吗？
37:52 A: Have to have it.

K: Of course, we must exist. So, can the mind be free of this urge to kill? Which means: can the mind be free of being hurt? So, when there is hurt, it does all kinds of neurotic things. Is pleasure love? Is desire love? But we have made pleasure, desire, into love. I desire God - you follow, sir? I must learn about God - you follow? The whole thing. God is my invention, my image, out of my thought I have made that image, and so I go around in circles. So I must know what enjoyment is. Is enjoyment pleasure? When I enjoy a good meal, or a good sunset, or see a beautiful tree, or woman, whatever it is, at that moment, if it doesn't end, it becomes pleasure. You understand? If the mind, thought, carries over that enjoyment and wants it to be repeated the next day, it has become pleasure, it is no longer enjoyment. I enjoy, and that's the end of it! 		安：我们必须拥有武器。

克：当然，我们要生存下去。 可是，心智能够摆脱掉这种杀戮的渴望吗？ 也就是说：心智能够摆脱掉伤害吗？ 因为当有了伤害， 心智就会做出各种神经质的事情。 欢愉是爱吗？ 渴望是爱吗？ 但是我们已经把欢愉和渴望变成了爱。 我渴望上帝 ——你明白吗，先生？我必须要去了悟上帝 ——你明白吗？所有这些事情。 而上帝只是我的发明，我的想象， 我通过思想制造出了这种意象， 所以是我自己在那兜圈子。 因此我必须了解什么是喜悦。 喜悦是欢愉吗？ 当我享受一顿美食，一次美好的日落， 或者欣赏一棵美丽的树、一个女人或者无论什么的时候， 在那个时刻，如果它没有适时结束，那它就会变成欢愉。 你明白了吗？ 如果心智、思想延续那种喜悦 并且想要第二天再重复它时， 那么它就变成了欢愉，而不再是喜悦了。 我享受了快乐，然后到此为止！
39:44 A: William Blake has very, very beautifully, it seems to me, pointed to this. And, of course, he was regarded as a madman, as you know. I might not remember the words precisely, but I think, part of his little stanza goes: 'He who kisses a joy as it flies, lives to see eternity's sunrise'.

K: Yes, yes. 		安：在我看来，威廉·布雷克（英国诗人和画家） 非常非常优美地指出了这一点。 当然，如你所知，人们认为 他是一个疯子。 我或许记得并不是太准确， 但我想他的诗中有一小节是这样写的： “你若轻吻飞逝的喜悦， 便能见到永恒的黎明”。

克：是的，是的。
40:12 A: It's the joy that he kisses as it flies, not the pleasure. 安：他轻吻的是飞逝的喜悦， 而不是欢愉。
40:15 K: No, no.

A: And it's as it flies. And what you said is, that if he won't let it fly, holds it, then we have fallen out of the act of joy into this... 		克：没错，不是欢愉。

安：那是在喜悦飞逝的时候。 而你说的是， 如果不让喜悦飞走，而是死死抓住它的话， 那么我们就从喜悦的行动跌落到了那种
40:29 K: ...pursuit of pleasure.

A: ...endless, repetitive, in the end mournfully boring thing. 		克：……对欢愉的追逐中。

安：……无止尽的、重复性的追求， 直到最后它成为了一件令人极度厌倦的事情。
40:35 K: And I think, sir, that is what is happening in this country as well as in Europe and India, primarily in this country: the desire to fulfill instantly, the pleasure-seeking principle. Be entertained, football - you follow? - be entertained. 克：先生，我觉得 这就是这个国家的现状， 欧洲和印度也一样，但这个国家表现得尤为明显： 渴望即刻的满足， 享乐至上原则。 各种娱乐，球赛——你明白吗？——渴望被娱乐。
41:01 A: This goes back to what you were pointing out earlier in the last conversation we had; here somebody is, feels empty, needs to be filled. 安：这又回到了在我们上一次对话中 你所指出的一点； 有人感到空虚无聊，然后他需要被填满。
41:13 K: Lonely.

A: Lonely, filled, looking for what we call fulfilment, filling up full. 		克：孤独。

安：孤独，所以需要填补， 寻求我们所谓的满足，来填满自己。
41:19 K: Filling up full.

A: Filling up full. And yet, if one undertakes to make this act of attention that you referred to in our discussion about religion, in order to fill up the hole, then we've had it. We're not going to do that. There has been an endless history of that attempt under the name of control of thought.

K: Of course. 		克：填满自己。

安：填满自己。 然而， 如果我们开始去采取 在我们讨论宗教时你所提到的那种关注行动 来填补那个坑洞的话，那么我们就可以解决问题了。 但我们并没有那么做。 从古至今，人类一直永无止尽地 以控制思想的名义进行着这种努力。

克：当然。
41:55 A: It would seem that, if one doesn't begin in love, he will not make this act of attention in a non-utilitarian way. He simply will make it in a utilitarian way, if he doesn't begin in love. 安：但似乎如果一个人不从爱出发的话， 那么他就无法 不带功利心地来进行这种关注行动了。 如果他不从爱出发， 那么他就只会带着功利心来做这件事。
42:13 K: It's not the market place, quite. 克：但这不是一场交易，完全不是。
42:14 A: And that's why in one of the very early conversations we had you said the start is the end.

K: Yes. The beginning is the end.

A: The beginning is the end. 		安：这就是为什么 在我们很早之前的一次对话中你说过起点就是终点。

克：是的。 起点就是终点。

安：起点就是终点。
42:25 K: The first step is the last step. 克：第一步就是最后一步。
42:26 A: The first step is the last step. 安：第一步就是最后一步。
42:28 K: Quite right.

A: What I've been thinking about all through our conversations so far what is involved - 'involved' I don't like - what must one do - that's no good either - there is something... we are speaking about an act that is a radical end to all this nonsense that's been going on, which is terrifyingly destructive nonsense.

K: I know, sir. 		克：完全正确。

安：到目前为止在我们所有的谈话中 我一直在思考的一点就是 其中涉及到了什么 ——我不喜欢“涉及”这个词—— 我们必须做什么——这样说也不好—— 我们谈到了 某种行动，它能彻底终结 所有那些愚蠢荒谬之事，那些正在发生着的 可怕的毁灭行为。

克：是的，先生。
43:02 A: There is the doing of something. 安：有某种行动发生。
43:06 K: That is the seeing of all this! 克：那就是看清这一切！
43:08 A: And you said the seeing is the doing, is the act. 安：而你说看到就是行动，它本身就是行动。
43:15 K: As I see danger, I act. I see the danger of the continuity of thought in terms of pleasure, I see the danger, therefore I end it, instantly. If I don't see the danger, I'll carry on. If I don't see the danger of nationality - I'm taking that as very simple - I carry on, murdering, dividing - you follow? - seeking my own safety; but if I see the danger of it, it is finished. 克：当我看见了危险，我会立刻行动。 我看到了思想以欢愉的形式得以延续的 危险性， 我看到了它的危险，我就会立刻停止它。 如果我没有看到那个危险，我就会继续照旧。 如果我没有看到国家主义的危害 ——我举的这个例子非常简单—— 我就会继续屠杀和分割——你明白吗？—— 追求我自己的安全； 但如果我看到了它的危险，那么它就结束了。
43:52 A: May we relate here just for a moment, love to education? 安：在这里我们能否稍微谈一下爱和教育的关系？
43:57 K: Yes. 克：可以。
43:59 A: As a teacher I'm immensely concerned in this. 安：作为一个老师，我非常关心这个。
44:05 K: Sir, what we have been discussing in our dialogue this last week and now is part of education. 克：先生，我们在上周和现在的谈话中所讨论的 其实都属于教育的一部分。
44:13 A: Of course, it is. 安：当然，是的。
44:14 K: It is not education is there, it is educating the mind to a different thing. 克：教育并不在那些方面， 而是要去教育心智某种不同的东西。
44:23 A: I'm thinking of the student who sometimes comes to the teacher and says, 'I simply must change my way of life'. That is, once in a while you will find a student who is up to here, really had it, as we say. The first question they will usually put to you is: what must I do? Now, of course, that's a trap. I've been following you, I've come to see that with much greater clarity than I observed it for myself before. Simply because they are looking for a means when they say that. 安：我想起了有些学生有时会 过来找老师然后说， “我就是必须得改变我的生活方式了”。 也就是说，有时候 你会发现某个学生会跑到这里来， 就如我们所说，他确实有这种想法。 而他们通常会问你的第一个问题是： 我必须怎么做？ 而我们说，当然了，那是一个陷阱。 我一直在跟随着你说的话，我已经要比 我自己之前所观察的更清楚地看到了这一点。 他们这样问，只是因为 他们在寻找某种方法。
45:15 K: What must I do. 克：我必须怎么做。
45:17 A: We are not talking about a means.

K: No. Means is the end. Quite. 		安：但我们谈的并不是方法。

克：不是。 谈方法就完蛋了。没错。
45:23 A: I am thinking of the history of Christianity in this. You've got the question: what must I do to be saved. The answer is 'believe on'.

K: Yes. 		安：我在回想基督教历史上对这一点的看法。 你会遇到那个问题：要获得拯救我必须怎么做。 而答案就是“信仰”。

克：是的。
45:33 A: And then the poor person is stuck with what this means and ends up believing in belief.

K: Yes, believing, quite. 		安：然后那个可怜的人就被这个答案的含义困住了， 最后以相信某个信仰而告终。

克：是的，信仰，没错。
45:41 A: And that, of course, is abortive. The student comes and says, what must I do? Now, in our earlier conversation together we reached the point where the teacher and the student were talking together.

K: Yes. We are doing that now!

A: We are doing this now. 		安：当然，这些信仰完全无效。 现在，学生跑过来说了，我该怎么办？ 而在我们之前的谈话中， 我们曾经得出了一点，那就是老师和学生 要一起去探讨。

克：是的。 我们现在就在这么做！

安：我们现在就在做这件事。
45:59 K: I am not your teacher, but we are doing that now. 克：我并不是你的老师，而我们现在就在一起探讨着。
46:04 A: Well, no, I understand in our conversations that is not your role, but I must confess that it has been working out in this order, because I have learned immensely. There are two things here that I want to get clear, and I need your help. On the one hand, to make this pure act of attention, I need only myself. Is that correct?

K: No, not quite, sir. 		安：是的，你不是， 在我们的对话中我明白老师并不是你的角色， 但是我必须承认实际上你已经 成为了我的老师，因为我学到了如此多的东西。 这里有两件事情我想要搞清楚， 我需要你的帮助。 一方面，要做出这种纯粹关注的行动， 我只需要我自己。 对吗？

克：不，这样说不准确，先生。
46:42 A: Not quite.

K: Not quite. Sir, let's put the question first. The question is: what am I to do in this world? 		安：不准确。

克：不够准确。 先生，让我们首先来问这个问题。 那就是：在这个世界上我该做点什么？
46:51 A: Yes.

K: That is, what is my place in this world? First of all, the world is me. I am the world. That is an absolute fact. And what am I to do? The world is this - corrupt, immoral, killing, there is no love. There is superstition, idol worship, of the mind and the hand. There is war. That is the world. What is my relationship to it? My relationship to it only is if I am that. If I am not that, I have no relationship to it. 		安：是的。

克：也就是说，在这个世界上我的位置是什么？ 首先，这个世界就是我。我就是这个世界。 这是一个绝对的事实。 那么我该怎么办？ 这个世界已经这样了——腐败堕落、道德沦丧、腥风血雨， 没有爱。 有的是迷信、崇拜 心智和双手制造出来的偶像。 整个世界战火不断。这就是我们的世界。 那么我和它的关系是什么呢？ 只有当我就是它的时候，我们之间才会有关系。 如果我不是它，那么我就和它没有关系了。
47:46 A: I understand that in terms of act. 安：我理解这是从行为的层面上来说的。
47:49 K: That's it.

A: In terms of act. Not a notion that I have. 		克：正是如此。

安：从行为的层面上来说， 而不是我秉持的观念。
47:53 K: For me the world is corrupt, is geared to kill. And I won't kill. What is my relationship to the man who goes and kills a baby seal? I say, my God, how can you do such a thing! You follow, sir? I want to cry about it. I do. How can you educate that man or the society which allows such a thing to happen? 克：对我来说这个世界是败坏的，它成了一台杀戮机器。 但我不想去杀戮。 那么我和 那个去杀害幼年海豹的人有什么关系呢？ 我说，天哪，你怎么能做这样的事情呢！ 你明白吗？先生？我会为此大声疾呼。我会行动起来。 那么你要如何教育 纵容此事发生的个体或者社会呢？
48:26 A: Then perhaps I should rephrase the question and say, well, when I do whatever is done in making this pure act of attention, I am not separated from the world in which I am... 安：那时也许我会改变措辞， 然后说，是的，无论我做什么事情 来达成这种纯粹关注的行动， 我和我所处的这个世界仍旧不是分离的
48:46 K: I come to it from a different angle altogether. 克：于是我就可以从一个完全不同的角度来面对它了。
48:49 A: Exactly. Fine. 安：正是如此，很好。
48:52 K: I come to it, sir, because there is something different in me operating. Compassion, love, intelligence, all that is operating in me. 克：我会面对它，先生， 因为我内心有另一样东西在运作， 慈悲、爱和智慧， 所有这些东西都在我内心运作起来。
49:03 A: But it seems... It seems that two possibilities are here. On the one hand, making this pure act of attention doesn't require that I be in the physical presence of another human being, but of course, I am always in relation whether I am there or not.

K: Of course. 		安：但是似乎……似乎 在这里有两种可能性。 一方面，做出这种纯粹关注的行动 并不需要我 这个实体实际地出现在另一个人面前， 但显然我与他始终是有关系的， 不管我是否在那儿。

克：当然了。
49:23 A: Yes, I fully grasp that. But then the second possibility is that within conversation, as we are enjoying it together now, something occurs, something takes place. It's not that we must be together for it to take place. And it's not that we must be alone for it to take place. Therefore what we have established is that something occurs, which is quite beyond all these distinctions of inner and outer - you are over there, I'm over here. 安：是的，我完全领会了这点。 而另一种可能性则是 在目前我们所一起参与分享的 谈话中， 有一些东西产生了，有一些事情发生了。 但并不是说我们必须在一起，它才会发生。 也不是说我们必须独自一人，它才会发生。 因此我们可以得出的是： 某些事情发生了，它完全超越了 所有内在和外在的界限 ——比如你在那里，而我在这里。
50:08 K: See what takes place, see what takes place. First of all, we are serious, really serious. Second, the killing, the corruption, we've cut it. We have finished with it. So, we stand alone, alone, not isolated. Because when the mind is not that, it is alone. It hasn't withdrawn, it hasn't cut itself off, it hasn't built an ivory tower for itself, it isn't living in illusion. It says, that is false! that is corrupt, I won't touch it! - psychologically, I may put on trousers, etc., but I won't touch inwardly, psychologically, that. Therefore it is completely alone. 克：看看发生了什么，仔细看一下。 首先，我们都很认真，真的很认真。 其次， 我们已经断绝了杀戮和腐败。 我们已经结束了它们。 所以我们是独立的， 独立，不是孤立。 因为当心智摒弃了那些东西，它就独立了。 它没有退缩，没有切断自己的联系， 也没有为自己建造一座象牙塔， 也没有生活在幻想之中。 而是告诉自己，那些是错误的！ 那是腐败堕落，我绝不会去碰它！——从身体上， 我还会穿上裤子等等， 但是从内在和心理上我却绝不会去碰那些东西。 因此它是完全独立的。
51:10 A: And it is saying this amidst all this mournful round. 安：所以它能够在这悲惨的循环中说出这样的话。
51:14 K: Therefore, being alone, it is pure. 克：因此孑然独立就是纯洁。
51:19 A: Chaste.

K: Therefore purity can be cut into a million pieces and it will remain still pure. It is not my purity or your purity, it is pure. Like pure water, it remains pure water. 		安：也就是纯真。

克：所以 纯洁可以被切割成数百万个片段， 但它仍旧是纯洁的。 它并不是我的纯洁或者你的纯洁，它就是纯洁的。 就像纯净水，它永远都是纯净水。
51:38 A: Entirely full, too. Wholly full.

K: Wholly. 		安：它也是完全完整的。 那种圆满的完整。

克：圆满的完整。
51:44 A: It takes us back to that Sanskrit: this is full, that is full. Fullness is issued forth from fullness. It's a pity that the English doesn't carry this, the melody that the Sanskrit does. 安：这又把我们带回到了那句梵文： 这是完整的，那也是完整的。 完整是来自于完整的。 很可惜英语无法传达这些， 梵文所独有的这种韵律。
52:06 K: So you see, that's very interesting from this conversation what has come out. The thing is, we are frightened of being alone. Which is, we are frightened of being isolated. But every act a human being does is isolating himself. That is, his ambition is isolating himself. When he is nationalistic, he is isolating himself. When he says, it is my family - isolating himself. I want to fulfil - isolating himself. When you negate all that, not violently, but see the stupidity of all that, then you are alone. And that has tremendous beauty in it. And therefore that beauty you can spread it everywhere, but it still remains alone. So, the quality of compassion is that. But compassion isn't a word. It happens, it comes with intelligence. This intelligence will dictate, if my sister is attacked, at that moment. But it is not intelligence, if you say, what will you do if. Such a question, and an answer to that, is unintelligent. I don't know if... 克：所以你瞧，从这个对话中 碰撞出了什么东西，这是很有趣的。 而事实是，我们都害怕独立。 也就是说，我们害怕孤立。 但是人类所做的每一件事却都在孤立自己。 也就是说，他的野心在孤立他自己。 他的国家主义在孤立他自己。 当他说这是我的家庭时——他在孤立自己。 当他说我想要去实现时——依然在孤立自己。 然而当你否定了所有这一切，不是暴力地否定， 而是看清了这一切的愚蠢荒谬时，那么你就独立了。 那种独立之中就有着惊人的美。 然后你就可以 把那种美散播各地，但却依然保持独立。 所以，这就是慈悲的品质。 而慈悲并不是一个词。 它伴随着智慧而来，伴随智慧发生。 如果我的妹妹遭遇了袭击，那么在那个时候， 这种智慧就会指引我。 但是假如你问，如果发生了什么你会怎么办的话， 那就不是智慧了。 这样的问题以及对此的答案都不智慧。 我不知道你是否
53:47 A: Oh yes, I am following you precisely. 安：哦，是的，我非常明白你的意思。
53:50 K: But it is unintelligence to say, well, I am going to prepare to kill all those people who are my enemies - you follow? - which is the army, the navy, the whole sovereign governments are doing it. So, love is something, sir, that is really chaste. Chastity is the quality of aloneness and therefore never hurt. I don't know... 克：但是如果你说，呃， 我要做好准备去消灭 我所有的敌人时，这就不是智慧了——你明白吗？—— 这就是那些陆军、海军 和所有主权国家的政府在做的事情。 所以先生，爱是某种真正纯真的东西。 而纯真就是独立这种品质， 所以它永远不会受伤。 我不知道
54:22 A: It's interesting that in this one act one neither hurts himself, nor another. It's a total abstention from hurt. 安：有趣的是在这种行动中， 人既不会伤害他自己，也不会伤害别人。 它彻底戒绝了伤害。
54:33 K: Sir, wait a minute. I have given you all my money, because I trust you. And you won't give it to me; I say, please, give me a little... you won't. What shall I do? What is the act of intelligence? You follow, sir? Act of affection, act of compassion that says, what will it do? You follow my question? A friend of mine during the second world war, he found himself in Switzerland. He had quantities of money, plenty of money. And he had a great friend from childhood. And to that friend he said... - he had to leave the next minute, because something, you know, the war took place and he had to leave the country. So he took all the money and he said, here, my friend, keep it for me. I'll come back. I'll come back when the war is over. He comes back and says, please. He says, what money? 克：先生，等一下。 我把自己所有的钱都给了你，因为我信任你。 但是你却不愿还给我； 我说，求你给我一点吧 但你还是不给。那我该怎么办？ 对此智慧的行动应该是什么？你明白吗，先生？ 那种慈悲和爱的行动， 它会怎么办？ 你跟上我的问题了吗？ 在第二次世界大战的时候， 我有一个朋友 生活在瑞士。 他拥有巨额的财富，很多很多的钱。 他有一个从小到大的挚友。 他对那个朋友说 ——他得马上离开瑞士， 因为战争爆发了，你知道， 所以他不得不离开这个国家。 他拿出了自己所有的钱，对朋友说， 我的朋友，替我保管好这些钱。我会回来的。 战争一结束我就回来。 战争结束后他回到了瑞士，对他的朋友说：请把钱还给我。 但他的朋友却说：什么钱啊？
55:40 A: Goodness me. 安：天哪。
55:43 K: You follow, sir? So, what should he do? Not theoretically. You are put in that position. You give me something. You entrust me with something. And I say, yes, quite right, you have given me, now whistle for it. What is your responsibility? Just walk away?

A: No. If there were a means to recover it, then that would be done upon the instant. 		克：你明白吗，先生？所以，他该怎么办呢？ 不是理论上的。你现在就处在那个位置。 你给了我一些东西。你托付给了我一些事情。 而我却说，是的，没错， 但你已经把它给我了，所以现在休想再拿回去了。 此时你的责任是什么？ 只是转身离开吗？

安：当然不是。 如果有某种手段可以拿回我的钱， 我就会立即行动。
56:17 K: Intelligence.

A: Intelligence would take over. 		克：这就是智慧。

安：智慧将会处理此事。
56:19 K: Therefore that's what I am saying. Love is not forgiveness - you follow? - I forgive and walk away. Love is intelligence. And intelligence means sensitivity, to be sensitive to the situation. And the situation, if you are sensitive, will tell you what to do. But if you are insensitive, if you are already determined what to do, if you are hurt by what you have done, then insensitive action takes place. I don't know if I...

A: Yes, yes, of course. Yes, of course. This raises very, very interesting questions about what we mean about conscience.

K: Yes. 		克：所以这就是我的意思。 爱并不是宽恕 ——你明白吗？——我宽恕了你然后转身离开。 爱是智慧。 而智慧意味着敏感， 对处境的敏感。 如果你很敏感，那么处境本身 就会告诉你如何去做。 但是如果你不敏感， 如果你事先已经决定了该怎么做， 如果你因自己的作为而受过伤， 那么不敏感的行动就会产生。 我不知道我是否……

安：是的，是的，当然了。 毫无疑问是这样的。 这里又出现了一个非常非常有趣的问题： 我们对“良知”是如何定义的。

克：是的。
57:12 A: And the word 'conscience', it seems to me, has invited an astonishing amount of... 安：在我看来，“良知”这个词 已经诱发了数量惊人的
57:20 K: ...rubbish.

A: ...miscomprehension of what's going on. 		克：……荒谬理论。

安：……对现实的错误理解。
57:23 K: Therefore, sir, one has to investigate what is consciousness.

A: Yes. 		克：因此先生，我们必须要去探究 什么是意识。

安：是的。
57:29 K: I don't know if there is time now, but that requires... we'll do it tomorrow, another day: what is consciousness, and what is conscience, and what is the thing which tells you to do or not to do? 克：我不知道还有没有时间，因为这需要 我们明天、改天再来讨论这个吧：什么是意识， 什么是良知， 什么东西在告诉你做什么或者不做什么？
57:50 A: Consciousness in its relation to relationship is something that, when we have a chance, I should like to explore with you. I remember years ago in graduate school, being very arrested by coming across the statement that was made by an American thinker - I think Montague was his name - when he said consciousness has been very badly understood, because it has been thought that there is something called 'sciousness'. But there is no such thing as 'sciousness'. We've got to get the 'con' in there, the together, the relationship. And without that we have had it. I do hope that next time, when we have the opportunity, in our next conversation we could explore that. 安：关于意识和关系的关联， 如果有机会的话， 我很想和你探讨一下。 我记得多年以前在研究生院， 我无意中发现了一位美国思想家所做的一段陈述， 它深深吸引了我 ——我想他的名字应该叫蒙特鸠—— 他说意识这个词已经被人们严重误解了， 因为人们一直认为 存在着某种叫做“sciousness（个人意识）”的东西。 但其实并不存在“sciousness（个人意识）”这样的东西。 我们必须把那个“con（共同）”加上去， 来表达一种“一起”和关系的含义。 没有“con”，意识就不复存在了。 我衷心希望如果有机会的话， 我们可以在下次谈话中来探讨这个。
58:35 K: We have to discuss this question - living. 克：我们必须讨论这个问题——生活。