克里希那穆提 - 另一种生活方式

Krishnamurti Subtitles

SD74CA13 - 另一种生活方式
与艾伦·W·安德森博士的第十三次对话
美国，加利福尼亚，圣地亚哥
1974年2月26日

0:38	Krishnamurti in Dialogue with Dr. Allan W. Anderson	克里希那穆提与艾伦·W·安德森博士的对话
0:43	J. Krishnamurti was born in South India and educated in England. For the past 40 years he has been speaking in the United States, Europe, India, Australia, and other parts of the world. From the outset of his life's work he repudiated all connections with organised religions and ideologies and said that his only concern was to set man absolutely unconditionally free. He is the author of many books, among them The Awakening of Intelligence, The Urgency of Change, Freedom From the Known, and The Flight of the Eagle. This is one of a series of dialogues between Krishnamurti and Dr. Allan W. Anderson, who is professor of religious studies at San Diego State University where he teaches Indian and Chinese scriptures and the oracular tradition. Dr. Anderson, a published poet, received his degree from Columbia University and the Union Theological Seminary. He has been honoured with the distinguished Teaching Award from the California State University.	J·克里希那穆提出生于印度南部，在英国受教育长大。在过去的40年里，他的演讲遍布美国、欧洲、印度、澳大利亚以及世界各地。从开始他毕生工作的那一刻起，他就断绝了与有组织的宗教和意识形态的所有关系，并声明他唯一关心的是让人类获得绝对的、无条件的自由。他有多部著作，其中包括《智慧的觉醒》、《转变的紧迫性》、《从已知中解脱》以及《鹰的翱翔》。本片是克里希那穆提和艾伦·W·安德森博士的系列对话之一。安德森博士是圣地亚哥州立大学宗教研究学的教授。教授印度与中国的经典，以及传统的神谕文化。安德森博士，是一位出版过诗集的诗人，他在哥伦比亚大学和纽约协和神学院获得学位。他还被加利福尼亚州立大学授予了杰出教学奖。
1:51	A: Mr. Krishnamurti, at the end of our last conversation, if I remember correctly, we were looking into the relationships among living, and love, and death. That is we had just begun to when we had to bring our discussion to an end. I was hoping today that we might pursue this in terms of our continuing concern for the transformation of man.	安：克里希那穆提先生，在我们上次谈话的最后，如果我没记错的话，我们探讨了生活、爱和死亡的关系。这方面的讨论才刚开始，我们上次谈话的时间就结束了。我希望我们今天可以就这个我们一直关注的人类转变的问题继续进行讨论。
2:26	K: As usual, sir, this is such a complex question, this living, what it means and what it actually is, and love, which we talked about the other day fairly in detail and rather closely, and also this enormous problem of death. Every religion has offered a comforting belief, comforting ideas, hoping there would be a solution for the fear, sorrow, and all the things that are involved in it. So I think, perhaps we should begin with what is living and then go from there to love and death. A: Good.	克：像往常一样，先生。这是一个如此复杂的问题，生活意味着什么，它的真实含义是什么？还有爱，这个问题我们前几天相当细致、相当严谨地讨论过了，还有死亡这个宏大的命题。每一种宗教都提供了一种抚慰身心的信念、具有安抚作用的观念，希望能藉此来克服恐惧、悲伤以及所有与之相关的问题。因此我想，我们也许应该从讨论什么是生活开始，然后从这里再展开到爱和死亡。安：好的。
3:38	K: Shouldn't we actually look at what we call living now, what is taking place. A: Yes.	克：难道我们不应该先来审视一下我们现在所谓的生活，看看实际发生的是什么吗？安：好的。
3:51	K: What actually is going on, which we call existence, living, those two words to cover this whole field of man's endeavour to better himself, not only in the technological world, but also psychologically, he wants to be different, he wants to be more than what he is, and so on. So when we look at it in whatever country, and whatever race, or whatever religion they belong to, it is a matter of constant struggle from the moment you are born to the moment you die, it is one battle. Not only in relationship with other human beings, - intimate or not intimate - but also economically, socially, morally, it is a vast battle. I think everyone agrees to that. And that's obvious. The conflict, the struggle, the suffering, the pain, the frustrations, the agony, the despairs, the violence, the brutality, killing each other - all that is what is actually going on. Spending 40, 50 years in an office, in a factory, occasional holidays for a month, and a wild kind of holidays, because the holidays are a reaction to their monotonous life.	克：实际上发生着什么，也就是我们所谓的存在、生活，这两个词涵盖了人类努力改善自身的全部领域，不仅仅在科技领域，也包括在心理领域，他想要变得不同，想要超越他自己实际的样子，等等。所以当我们来看这个问题时，不论他们属于哪个国家、哪个种族，或是何种宗教信仰，从出生的那一刻开始直至死去的那一刻，生活就是一场无休止的挣扎，它是一场战斗。不仅在你和他人的关系中， ——无论关系是否亲密——— 而且在经济上、社会上和道德上，这都是一场宏大的战役。我想每个人都同意这点，这是显而易见的。冲突、争斗、苦难、痛苦、失意、苦恼、绝望、暴力、残酷和自相残杀——所有这些都是真实发生着的事。在一间办公室，或是一个工厂里，度过四、五十年，偶尔休一个月的假，度过一个疯狂不羁的假期，因为假期是对他们单调乏味生活的一种反叛。
5:48	A: Time out. K: Time out, or whatever it is called. You see them all over Europe, America, going from museum to museum, looking at this, that, rushing about, and that is an escape from the monotony of their daily routine. And they go off to India, and there are, I believe, about 15,000 so-called hippies in various dresses, and various monasteries, and various cities, doing the most fantastic things, selling drugs - some of them - and putting on Indian clothes, dressing up as monks, and all that. It is a kind of vast romantic sentimental escape from their daily monotonous routine life. That is what we call living: the battle in relationship, the battle in business, in economic environment. It is a constant struggle.	安：短暂的休息。克：短暂的休息，或者无论什么名称。你可以看到这样的人遍布欧洲、美国，从一个博物馆到另一个博物馆，参观这里，参观那里，到处奔走，而这是一种逃避，逃避他们日常的单调生活。他们还远赴印度，我相信那里有大约一万五千名所谓的嬉皮士，他们穿着各式各样的服装，在各种修道院里，在不同的城市里，做着极其荒诞的事，他们中的有些人，贩卖毒品，穿着印度的传统服装，打扮得像个僧侣，等等诸如此类的事。这是一种浪漫而又感情用事的巨大逃避，逃离他们单调的日常生活。这就是我们所谓的生活：在关系中交战，在生意场上、在经济环境下争斗，它是一场永恒的战役。
7:08	A: What you've said seems to be ingrained into the grasp of this living itself. We have a saying: life is a battle. We interpret it in terms of what you have said.	安：你所说的这些似乎已经是我们对生活本身根深蒂固的认识了。我们有这样一种说法：生活就是一场战役。我们把你所说的诠释为这样一句话。
7:27	K: And nobody seems to say, why should it be that way? And we have all accepted it. We say, yes, it is part of our existence. If we don't struggle, we are destroyed. It is a part of our natural inheritance. From the animal, we see how it struggles, so we are part of the animal, part of the ape, and we must go on struggling, struggling, struggling. We have never said, is this right? Is this the way to live? Is this the way to behave, to appreciate the beauty of living?	克：但却从来没有人问，为什么生活该是这样的？我们都接受了这件事。我们说，好吧，这就是我们存在的一部分。如果我们不去斗争，我们就会被摧毁，这是我们自然遗传的一部分。从动物身上，我们看到它们是如何搏斗的，而我们是动物的一部分，是猿类的一种，那么我们也必须继续斗争下去，一直斗争，斗争。我们从来没有问过，这是正确的吗？这就是我们生活的方式吗？这就是我们的行为方式、去欣赏生活之美的方式吗？
8:21	A: The usual question turns on how to engage the battle more effectively.	安：通常问题都是问如何能更有效地投身到这场斗争中去。
8:26	K: Effectively, successfully, with least harm, with least strain, with least heart failure, and so on. But the ground is prepared for struggle. The monks do it - you follow, sir? - the religious people do it, the business, the artist, the painter, every human being, however compartmentalised he is, he is in battle. And that we call living. And a man looks at it - an intelligent man, he says, for God's sake, that's not the way to live. Let's find out if there is a different way of living. And nobody asks. I have talked to a great many politicians all over the world, and to a great many gurus. We will come to that, it's very interesting that word, what it means. We'll go into that. And I've talked to artists, to businessmen, to artisans, to labourers, very, very poor people: it is one constant battle. The rich, the poor, the middle class, the scientist - you follow, sir?	克：有效地、成功地投身进去，同时把伤害、负担、心力衰竭等等降到最低，但是斗争的战场已经准备好了。僧侣们就是这样做的，——你明白吗，先生？—— 宗教人士就是这样做的，生意人、艺术家、画家，每个人，不论把他划分到何种类别，他都处在这场斗争中，而我们称之为生活。当一个人，一个有智慧的人审视这件事时，他会说，看在上帝的份上，这根本不是生活之道，让我们来弄清楚是否还有另一种生活方式吧。但是没有人这么问。我曾经和全世界许多政治家、许多古鲁都交谈过。我们会谈到这个问题的，这是一个很有趣的词。这个词意味着什么，我们会探讨的。我还和很多艺术家、商人、工匠、体力劳动者以及一些极度穷困的人交谈过：生活是一场持续不断的战役，富人、穷人、中产阶级、科学家们，——你明白吗，先生？
10:03	A: Oh yes, I'm following.	安：是的，我明白。
10:04	K: And nobody says: this is wrong! This isn't living, It's bleeding!	克：可是没人说：这是不对的！这不是生活，这真让人悲痛！
10:15	A: I was thinking about the literatures of the world of a visionary nature that tend to be divided into three basic statements in terms of their form and content. On the one hand, we have epics that deal precisely with the representation of the battle of life.	安：我想到了世上那些卓越的文学作品，通常按内容和形式把它们分成了三种基本的叙述方式。一方面，我们有史诗作品，这些作品清晰地呈现了生活中的争斗。
10:42	K: We have got the Odyssey, we have got the Mahabharata, we have got so many other books, all praising this thing.	克：我们有《奥德赛》，我们有《摩呵婆罗多》，我们还有很多其他的书，全都是赞颂这种争斗的。
10:50	A: And then others deal with what we call the journey of life, the Odyssey would be specifically related to that; there are many battles concerned within it in terms of confrontations between individuals. And then there's the notion of life as a fulfilment. But we hardly ever get to the question of the fulfilment. And when these are studied, they are studied in terms of a literary form, and the question that you've raised, - which, it seems to me, would be a question that should be presented to the student in general...	安：另一些是有关我们所谓的“生命旅程”的作品，《奥德赛》就是这样一部作品。这部作品中涉及了许多有关人与人之间对抗的斗争。然后还有人生成就之类的观念，但是我们几乎从没有探讨过成就的问题。而当这些作品被研究时，它们是从文学形式的角度被研究的，而你刚才所提出的问题， ——从我的角度来看，似乎是一个应该面向所有学生提出的问题
11:30	K: And it is an authentic question, it's a question that must be put.	克：并且，这是一个很真实的问题。这是一个必须被提出来的问题。
11:38	A: I was reflecting as you were speaking that in the class room itself it's taken for granted that this battle is what it is. It is to be related to with fortitude, and so forth, but the question concerning it doesn't arise.	安：你讲话时，我在回想就在这个课堂上，我们都想当然地认为争斗就是这样的，它与坚韧不拔等等有关。但真正涉及的问题并没有被提出来。
11:55	K: No, to some young people it has arisen, but they go off at a tangent.	克：也不是，一些年青人已经提出了这个问题，但接下来他们忽然就走偏了。
12:02	A: Exactly. K: Either a commune, or become a Hindu - you follow? - go off to some ancient country and just disintegrate, do nothing, think nothing, just live.	安：没错。克：他们或是加入了一个公社，或是成为了一个印度教徒——你明白吗？—— 隐居到一个古老的国家，然后就在那里腐朽下去，什么都不做，什么都不想，只是活着。
12:19	A: Which is really a lateral movement.	安：这实际上是用一种横向的运动
12:21	K: Lateral. A: Not a vertical one. K: That's right.	克：横向的运动。安：不是纵向的。克：没错。
12:24	A: Into the question. Yes.	安：……来进入问题，是的。
12:25	K: So it is a valid question, and it must have a valid answer, not theoretical, but say, well, I will live that way. I will live without conflict. See what it means. I may be smothered. I question whether you will be wiped out by society, if you don't struggle. I've never struggled personally. I have never thought of battling with myself or with somebody else. So, I think, a question of that kind must not only be put verbally, but in the expression of that word one must see if it is possible for each one of us to live that way, to live without a single conflict. That means without division. Conflict means division. Conflict means the battle of the opposites. Conflict means you and me, we and they, Americans, Russians, you know, division, division, division. Fragmentation not only inwardly, but outwardly. Where there is fragmentation there must be battle. One fragment assuming the power and dominating the other fragments. So, an intelligent man - if there is such a person - has to find out a way of living which is not going to sleep, which is not just vegetating, which is not just escaping to some fanciful mystical visions, and all that stuff, but a way of living in daily life, in which conflict of any kind has come to an end. It is possible. I have watched it all around me, for the last 50 years, the battle going on around me, spiritually, economically, socially, one class battling the other class, and the dictatorships, the fascists, the communists, the Nazis - you follow, sir? A: Yes, I do.	克：所以这是一个有效的问题，那么它一定要有一个正当的答案，不是理论上的答案，而是说：好，我要这样去生活，我要没有冲突地活着。看看这意味着什么。我也许会受到压制。我质疑如果你不去抗争是不是就会被社会淘汰。我个人从来没有参与过争斗，我也从来没有想过和自己斗争，或是和其他任何人斗争。因此我认为，这类的问题，不该只是从口头上提出，而是在表达那个词时，我们必须看看我们每个人有没有可能这样活着，没有一丝冲突地活着。这意味着没有分裂。冲突意味着分裂，冲突意味着对立面之间的斗争，冲突就是你和我的划分、我们和他们的划分，美国人、俄国人，你知道的，划分，划分，划分。不仅内在分裂，外在也分裂。有分裂的地方就一定会有斗争。一个碎片拥有了权力，然后控制其他的碎片。因此，一个有智慧的人——如果有这样一个人—— 必须找出一种生活方式，这种方式不是沉沉睡去，也不是就那样茫茫然过日子，也不是逃到什么奇异的、神秘的幻觉里，或诸如此类的事里，而是一种贯穿于整个日常生活的方式，其中任何冲突都终结了。这是有可能的。对此我已经在自己周围观察过了，在过去的50年间，在我周围发生的那些斗争，无论是精神上的、经济上的、还是社会关系上的，一个阶级与另一个阶级斗争，还有独裁专政、法西斯主义者、共产主义者、纳粹 ——你明白吗，先生？安：是的，我明白。
15:16	K: All of them have their roots in this: encouraging obedience, discouraging obedience, imitating, conforming, obeying - all battle. So life has become a battle. And to me personally, to live that way is the most destructive, uncreative way of living. I won't live that way. I would rather disappear!	克：所有这些都植根于此：鼓励服从、打击服从、模仿、遵照、服从——所有的斗争。所以生活就变成了一场战斗。对我个人来说，这样的生活是最具毁灭性的，是最没有创造力的生活方式。我宁可消失，也不要这样活着！
15:59	A: I think, perhaps - and I wonder if you would agree - that some sort of confusion has arisen here in our minds, when we identify ourselves with this battle in terms of your description of it. When we begin to think about the question: 'ought this to continue', and we have the image of battle before us, we tend to imagine to ourselves that what we're really talking about is the human equivalent of what is called 'nature red in tooth and claw'.	安：我想，也许，不知你是否同意—— 当我们把自己和你所描述的这场斗争相认同时，我们的心里就会出现某种混淆。当我们开始思考这个问题： “这一切是否应该继续下去”时，我们就在自己面前制造了一个战争的意象，我们倾向于想象成：我们实际上在讨论的这些就相当于人类社会中所谓的 “弱肉强食的自然法则”。克：没错。
16:45	K: Quite.	安：但是，如果我正确地理解了你的意思，
16:46	A: But, if I am following you correctly, this is a cardinal mistake, because in our previous conversations you have, at least for me, very clearly indicated that we must distinguish between fear and danger; and the animals, in their own environment, act with clean and immediate dispatch in the presence of danger, whereas it seems we are making a mistake, if we attempt to study what we call human conflict on the level of this analogy, because analogy, if I have understood you correctly, simply doesn't apply.	这是一个根本性的错误，因为在我们之前的谈话中，至少对我来说，你很清晰地指出了我们必须对恐惧与危险加以区分，动物们，在它们所处的环境中，在遇到危险时，它们采取清晰而即刻的行动去躲避，然而我们人类似乎犯了一个错误：如果我们试图用同一层次的这种类比去研究我们所说的人类冲突的话，因为 ——如果我正确地理解了你的意思——这种类比并不适用。克：不适用。
17:32	K: Doesn't, no.	安：但是难道你不同意这也是有可能做到的吗？
17:33	A: But don't you agree that this tends to be done?	克：哦，当然，先生。
17:36	K: Oh rather, sir. We study the animal, or the birds, in order to understand man. A: Right.	我们研究兽类，或是研究鸟类，是为了了解人类。安：是的。克：但是你也可以研究人，也就是研究你自己。
17:43	K: Whereas you can study man, which is yourself. You don't have to go to the animal to know man. So, that is, sir, really a very important question, because I have, if I may talk a little about myself, I've watched it all. A: Please do.	你不用通过研究动物来了解人类。所以，先生，这确实是一个非常重要的问题，因为我曾经这样做过，请允许我谈一点我自己的经历，我曾经观察过这一切。安：请讲。克：我曾经在印度观察过。
18:05	K: I've watched it in India. The sannyasis, the monks, the gurus, the disciples, the politicians all over the world. I've happened to have, somehow I have met them all - the writers, the famous people, the painters who are very well-known, most of them have come to see me. And it is a sense of deep anxiety, that if they don't struggle they will be nothing. They will be failures, that is, that way of living is the only and righteous way of living.	世界各地的托钵僧、僧侣、古鲁、信徒、政客们，我刚巧有各种机会，与这些人会面 ——作家、社会名流、大名鼎鼎的画家们，他们中的大多数人都是来见我的。这些人都有一种深深的焦虑感，就好像如果他们不去争斗，他们就会一无所是，他们就会失败，也就是说，这种斗争的生活方式，是唯一的、正当的生活方式。安：去驱使自己成为所谓的卓有成效的人。
18:55	A: To drive oneself to be what is called productive.	克：卓有成效的，进取的。安：进取的。
18:58	K: Productive, progressive. A: Progressive.	克：我们从儿童时期就这样被教育着。
19:01	K: And we are taught this from childhood.	安：是的。克：我们的教育就是这样的，
19:05	A: Oh yes. K: Our education is that. To battle not only with yourself - with your neighbour, and yet love the neighbour, you follow? It becomes too ridiculous. So, having stated that, is there a way of living without conflict? I say, there is, obviously. Which is to understand the division, to understand the conflict, to see how fragmented we are, not try to integrate the fragments, which is impossible, but out of that perception the action is entirely different from integration. Seeing the fragmentations which bring about conflict, which bring about division, which bring about this constant battle, anxiety, strain, heart failure. You follow, sir? That is what is happening. To see it, to perceive it, and that very perception brings an action, which is totally different from the action of conflict. Because the action of conflict has its own energy, brings its own energy, which is divisive, which is destructive, violent. But the energy of perception and acting is entirely different. And that energy is the energy of creation. Anything that is created cannot be in conflict. An artist who is in conflict with his colours, he is not a creative human being. He may have perfect craft, perfect technique, a gift for painting, but that's...	不仅和自己作斗争，——也和邻居作斗争，但同时还要爱你的邻居，你明白我说的吗？这实在是太荒唐可笑了。所以，在讨论了这些之后，有没有一种毫无冲突的生活方式呢？我说，显然是有的。也就是要去了解这种分裂，了解这种冲突，看到我们有多么分裂，不是去试图整合这些碎片，这是不可能的，而出于这份觉知所产生的行动就会与整合碎片的做法截然不同。看到分裂会带来冲突，会带来分别，会带来无休止的斗争、焦虑、紧张、心力衰竭。你明白吗，先生？这就是正在发生的事情。去看到这些，去觉察到这些，正是这份觉知会带来行动，这种行动完全不同于源自冲突的行动。因为源自于冲突的行动有它自己的能量，会带来它自身的能量，这种能量是分裂的，是具有破坏性的、暴力的。但是，觉察以及行动的能量则是截然不同的，这种能量是具有创造性的能量。它所创造出的任何事物都不会处于冲突之中。一个与他所使用的色彩相冲突的艺术家，就不会是一个有创造力的人。他也许有完美的手艺、完美的技巧、有绘画的天赋，但这都安：你谈到这两种行动时，
21:21	A: It interests me very much that you've used the word 'energy' here in relation to both activities. K: Both activities, yes.	使用了“能量”这个词，我对这个词非常感兴趣。克：这两种行动，是的。安：你没说这两种能量从根本上讲是不同的。克：不，没有。
21:30	A: You haven't said that the energy at root is different. K: No, no.	安：现象是不同的。克：是的。
21:36	A: The phenomenon is different. K: Yes.	安：这些现象是
21:39	A: It would appear that when one makes success, prosperity, victory, the object of his activity, and engages this conflict, - which he interprets as engaging him, he always tends to think that 'things are coming at me'. When he undertakes this, if I have understood you correctly, energy is released, but it is released in fragmentary patterns.	当一个人获得成功、取得辉煌、取得胜利、达到他行动的目的，然后卷入了这种冲突时。 ——而他会把这种情况诠释为他是被迫卷入的，他会倾向于认为“都是这些事情找上我的”。当他接受了这点时，如果我正确地理解了你所说的，能量就被释放了，但这些能量是以碎片化的方式被释放的。克：是的，以另一种方式。安：是的。
22:18	K: The other way, yes. A: Yes. Whereas the energy that's released with perception is the same energy, is always whole. K: Is whole. Yes, sir, that's right.	然而随觉察释放的能量和这个是同一些能量，但它总是完整的。克：是完整的，是的，先生，没错。安：这是不是就是你… ... 克：是的，先生。你说得对。
22:30	A: Isn't that what you are... K: Yes, sir. That's right. Therefore sane, therefore healthy, therefore holy - h,o,l,y. A: Yes. I have the feeling that this release of energy which shatters out into patterns of energy as fragmentation, is really what we mean by the word 'demonic'.	因此它是健全的、健康的、神圣的——h-o-l-y。安：是的。我有这样的感觉：这种粉碎成了碎片形式的能量的释放，实际上就是我们所指的“魔鬼”这个词的含义。克：魔鬼，没错。
22:59	K: Demonic, that's right.	安：这实在不是个好听的名字。克：但其实是一个好名字，
23:01	A: That's giving it a hard name. K: But it is a good name. It's an excellent name. A: But you are really saying this, aren't you? I am saying this.	一个绝佳的名字。安：但是你确实是那么说的，对吗？我是那么说的。克：但我也同意，我和你的看法完全一致，
23:08	K: But I agree, I totally see that with you. I see it is demonic. It is the very destructive thing.	我认为它是一个魔鬼，那是一个极具破坏性的东西。安：没错。
23:18	A: Exactly.	克：而这就是我们所处的社会、我们文化的现状。
23:20	K: And that's what our society is, our culture is.	安：对于“魔鬼”这个词，看看我们都做了些什么！
23:27	A: What we've done to that word 'demonic'! I was just thinking about Socrates, who refers to his 'daimon' meaning the energy that operates in wholeness.	我刚刚想到了苏格拉底，他所指的“daimon” 意思是在整体中运作的能量。克：是的，先生。
23:43	K: That's right, sir.	安：这个词来源于希腊语，
23:44	A: And we have taken that word from the Greek clear out of the context of the apology and turned it upside down, and now it means...	我们去掉了这个词“悔过”的语意，它的意思被完全颠倒了，而现在它的意思是克：魔鬼。安：是的。
23:54	K: The devil. A: Right. And the same thing happened with the use of the word 'the asuras'. Originally in the Veda, this was not a reference to the demonic, there was no radical polarisation. K: No, no, no, quite.	相同的情况还发生在 “阿修罗”这个词的用法上。最初在《吠陀经》中，它并不涉及魔鬼的意思，这个词并没有偏激的两极化。克：没有没有，完全没有。安：而最终我们把这个词定义为上帝和魔鬼。
24:16	A: And finally we end up with the gods and the demons.	克：没错。
24:20	K: Quite.	安：而我认为你说的是：它什么也不是，
24:21	A: Which, I take it you are suggesting, is nothing other than the sheerest projection of our own demonic behaviour which we have generated ourselves. K: That's right.	而只是我们自己邪恶行为的直接投射，是我们自己产生了这些行为。克：你说得对。安：这一点对我而言具有巨大的意义。请继续讲下去。
24:32	A: This makes tremendous sense to me. Please go on.	克：所以，我们的生活方式是最不切实际的、
24:35	K: So, the way we live is the most impractical, insane way of living. And we want the insane way of living made more practical.	最愚蠢的生活方式。而我们却希望这种愚蠢的生活方式变得更切合实际。安：是的，没有人为此而祈祷。
24:55	A: Yes, and there isn't a prayer for it.	克：但是我们却一直在这样渴望着。
25:00	K: But that is what we are demanding all the time. We never say, let's find a way of living which is whole, - and therefore healthy, sane, and holy. And through that, through perceiving, acting is the release of total energy, which is non-fragmentary, which isn't the artist, the business man, the politician, the priest, the layman - all that doesn't exist at all. Now, to bring about such a mind, such a way of living, one has to observe what actually is taking place outside and inside, in us, inside and outside. And look at it, not try to change it, not try to transform it, not try to bring about different adjustment, see actually what it is. I look at a mountain, I can't change it. Even with a bulldozer I can't change it. But we want to change what we see. The observer is the observed, you understand, sir? Therefore, there is no change in that. Whereas in perception there is no observer. There is only seeing, and therefore acting.	我们从不说让我们找出一种完整的生活方式， ——进而是健康的、健全的和神圣的生活方式。而通过这些，通过觉察和行动释放了整个能量，这种能量是不分裂的，它不是分成什么艺术家、商人、政客、传道士、世俗之人 ——所有这些划分都根本不存在。那么，为了造就这样的心智、这样的生活方式，一个人就必须去观察外在和内在实际上在发生着什么，我们自己的内在和外在发生着什么。去看，不试图去改变它，不试图去改造它，不试图去做出不同的调整，而只是看到它真实的样子。我看着一座高山，我无法改变它，哪怕我有一架推土机，我还是无法改变它。但是我们却想要改变我们所看到的一切。观察者就是所观之物，先生，你明白吗？因此，这之中没有改变，而在觉察中没有观察者的存在，只有观察，因此就有行动。安：这就像照镜子一样，照见了我们之前的讨论，
26:44	A: This holds a mirror up to an earlier conversation we had when you referred to beauty, passion, suffering.	当时你提到了美、激情和痛苦。克：是的，痛苦和行动。是的。
26:55	K: Yes, suffering and action, yes.	安：我记得问了你这样一个问题：
26:58	A: And I remember asking you the question: in order to recover the correct relationship among them we must begin with the suffering which, if perceived as it ought to be perceived, generates passion.	要恢复它们之间正确的关系，我们必须由痛苦开始，也就是说，如果以应有的方式感知到了痛苦，就会产生激情。克：是的。安：你不必费力地去实现它，
27:15	K: That's right. A: One doesn't have to work it out. It happens. And behold, upon the same instant beauty breaks out, and love. So the passion in itself is compassion. The 'com' comes in exactly with the passion. K: With passion, that's right. A: Yes.	它就是发生了，观察，在同一瞬间美和爱就爆发了。因此激情本身就是慈悲。 “com”就伴随着激情(passion)来了。克：带着激情，是的。安：是的。克：那么，先生，你能不能，以教授或老师的身份，
27:40	K: Now, sir, if you could, as a professor, or as a teacher, or as a parent, point this out, the impracticality of the way we are living, the destructiveness of it, the utter indifference to the earth. We are destroying everything we touch. And to point out a way of living in which there is no conflict. That, seems to me, is the function of the highest form of education.	或是作为父母，你能否指出我们的生活方式是很不切实际的，这种方式所具有的破坏性和对地球的漠不关心。我们正在摧毁我们所接触的一切事物。而要指出一种没有冲突的生活方式，这对于我来说，就是最高形式教育的功用。安：是的。这之中蕴含着一个必要条件，尽管
28:24	A: Yes, it has a requirement in it, though, that seems to me very clear, namely, the teacher himself must be without conflict. This is a very, very different point of departure from what occurs in our general educational structure, particularly in professional educational activities, where one gets a degree in professional education rather than in an academic subject as such. We are taught, for instance... and I am speaking about this somewhat as an outsider, because I don't have a degree in education, but in an academic subject as such, but I have observed in what goes on with my colleagues in education, that tremendous emphasis is placed on techniques of teaching. K: Of course, of course.	这对我来说是很清晰的，也就是说，教师本身必须没有冲突。这是一个非常非常不同的起点，不同于我们一般的教育体系所进行的那些，尤其是在教育专业的活动中，在这里一个人要获得教育这个专业的学位，而不是学术研究之类的学位。我们被教育，比如说我多多少少是作为一个局外人在讲这个的，因为我未曾获得过教育学学位，而是获得了学术研究这样的学位，但我观察过教育界的同事身上所发生的一切，他们把大部分力气都放在了教学技巧上。克：当然，当然。安：已经经历过
29:20	A: And the question of the individual teacher as having undergone a transformation of the sort that you have been discussing is not a factor of radical concern. What is, of course, in an altruistic sense a matter of concern is that the teacher have the interests of the students at heart, and that sort of thing, which, of course, is laudable in itself, but it's after the fact, it's after the fact of this first transformation.	你所说的那种转变的个别老师所提出的问题并不是他们从根本上关心的问题。当然，从利他的意义上讲，关心的问题应该是老师由衷地把学生的利益放在心上，等等诸如此类的事情，这些，当然，本身就是值得赞美的事，但这是在那件事发生之后的事了，是在首先发生了转变之后的事。克：是的，先生。但是你看，
29:54	K: Yes, sir, but you see, first I must transform myself, so I can teach. A: Precisely, precisely.	首先我必须自己先转变，然后才能去教别人。安：没错，非常对。克：等等，你瞧这有点
30:04	K: Wait, see that there is a little bit... something in it that is not quite accurate. That means I have to wait till I change. Why can't I change, if I am an educator, in the very act of teaching? The boys, the students, live in conflict. The educator lives in conflict. Now, if I was an educator with a lot of students, I would begin with that and say, 'I am in conflict, and you are in conflict, let us see in discussing, in becoming aware of our relationship, in teaching, if it is not possible for me and for you to dissolve this conflict'. Then it has action. But if I have to wait till I'm free of all conflict, I can wait till doomsday.	这其中有些东西不是很准确。这意味着我必须一直等到我转变。如果我是教育者，为什么我不能就在教学活动中转变呢？孩子们、学生们，生活在冲突之中，教育者自己也生活在冲突之中。现在，如果我是一个教育者，有着许多的学生，我就会这样开始，我会说， “我处于冲突之中，而你们也处在冲突之中，让我们在讨论过程中，在觉知我们关系的过程中，在教学过程中，来看看对我和你们来说，解决这种冲突是不是不可能”，那么这就有了行动。但是如果我必须要等到自己摆脱了所有冲突的时候，那我可以一直等到世界末日了。安：我现在完全明白你所讲的了。
31:10	A: I see now exactly what you are saying. What you are saying is literally this: the teacher, who is presently in conflict, simply just acknowledges this. Walks into the classroom... K: That's right, sir.	你所说的，实际上就是这个意思：教师，他目前也处于冲突之中，他就直接承认这件事情，然后就这样走进教室…… 克：先生，你说得对。安：……而不是作为一个从冲突中解脱了的人。
31:27	A: ...not as somebody who is free from conflict.	克：是的。安：他不是，
31:31	K: That's right. A: No, but he walks into the classroom - and here it is, we are facing it. And he looks at his students and he lays it out.	但当他走进教室 ——它就在这里，我们来面对这件事。他看着学生们，然后把它摆出来。克：这是我首先要讨论的事情，
31:41	K: That's the first thing I would discuss, not the technical subjects. Because that's living. And then I discuss. And also, in the very teaching of a technical subject I would say, all right, let us see how we approach, you know? I can learn from that, so that both the student and the educator know their conflicts and are interested in dissolving the conflict, and therefore they are tremendously concerned. That produces an extraordinary relationship. Because I have watched it. I go to several schools in India and in England, and it takes place.	而不是什么技术科目。因为这才是生活。然后我开始讨论它。同样，在进行技术科目的教学时，我会说，好吧，让我们来看看该如何着手，你明白吗？我可以从中学习，这样学生和老师都能知道他们的冲突，并且对如何解决冲突很感兴趣，所以他们对此都非常地关注。这就会产生一种非同寻常的关系。因为我已经看到过了，我去过印度和英国的一些学校，在这些学校中就发生着这样的事。安：与此同时爱也迸发了。
32:31	A: In this taking place love breaks out.	克：当然，当然。这就是它核心的本质，
32:36	K: Of course, of course. That is the very essence of it. Because I care, I feel responsible.	因为我关心，所以我觉得有责任。安：我可以深入讲一下这个话题吗？
32:46	A: May I go into this just a little bit? One of the things that has concerned me in this series of our dialogues is that someone should have perhaps not seen as clearly as I think you have pointed out for me, that in our discussions of thought and of knowledge what we have been saying is that there is some dysfunction in thought and in knowledge, which relates to its own nature, the nature of thought, and the nature of knowledge, which could very well give the impression that thought is a disease or that knowledge is a disease, rather than giving the impression - as I have understood from you - that thought and knowledge have their proper uses.	在我们这一系列的对话中，我关心的问题之一就是：有人也许还没有像我一样清楚地看到你给我指出的这些：在我们对思想和知识的讨论中，我们一直所说的是在思想和知识中存在某种功能紊乱，而这和它们自身的本质有关，也就是和思想的本质以及知识的本质有关，这恰好就给人以这种印象：思想是一种弊病，或者说知识是一种弊病，而不是给人以这种印象： ——就我对你的理解而言—— 思想和知识都有它们各自恰当的用途。克：当然。安：它们的本质并没有那么败坏。
33:48	K: Of course.	克：很显然不是。安：没错。
33:49	A: Their natures are not corrupt as such.	克：问题在于对它们的使用。安：对的。
33:52	K: Obviously not. A: Exactly.	因此这就变得极其重要，
33:53	K: It is the usage of it. Quite. A: Right. Therefore it becomes of utmost importance, I think, in understanding what you are saying, to be aware of the corrective that we bring to bear, when together we examine the uses of thought and the uses of knowledge. While at the same time, not assuming that the principle of thought, the principle of knowledge is in its own nature corrupt.	我认为，在理解你所讲的这些话时，在我们一起审视思想的用途和知识的用途时，要觉知我们对它们所采取的矫正。同时，不去假设思想的本质和知识的本质是败坏的。克：你说得对。安：所以在课堂上，
34:22	K: No. Quite right. A: So that in a classroom we could study a text, in which an assertion is made, a positive statement is made, without thinking that name and form are in themselves...	我们能学习一篇课文，其中很明确地阐述了一个观点，作了一个很明确的陈述，但不必认为那些名称和形式本身克：是败坏的。安：……是败坏的。
34:38	K: Corrupt. A: ...corrupt.	克：很显然不是。
34:39	K: Obviously not. A microphone is a microphone. There is nothing corrupt about it.	一个麦克风就是一个麦克风，它本身没什么败坏的。安：正是如此，但是，
34:45	A: Exactly, but, you know, the thing comes home to me with tremendous force, that one must begin in his relationship to his students with doing this. I must tell a little story on myself here. Years ago I went to hear a lecture of yours and I listened, I thought, very, very carefully. And, of course, one lecture is not in itself, perhaps at least for someone like me, it was not enough. Or another way to put it, perhaps more honestly would be, I was not enough at the time for the lecture, because it seems, as I recall it now, that the principles that we have been discussing you stated very, very clearly. I went away from that lecture with the impression that there was a very close relationship between what you are saying and Buddhism, and I was thinking about this whole label thing as scholars are wont to do - you know how we divide the world up into species. And in our series of conversations now I've come to see that I was profoundly mistaken. Profoundly mistaken. And I pinch myself to think, you know, I might have gone on thinking what I thought before, which had nothing to do with anything that you were concerned in. It is a revelation to face it that one doesn't have to have a credential to start with, before he walks into the room. He just has to start looking at the very thing that he believes is going to bring him into a hostile relationship with his class in order... because we believe that there are things that we must avoid talking about, because they create dissension, disruption and put us off. And therefore let's not talk about conflict. Or if we are going to talk about it, let's talk about it in terms of our being the ones who have the light over against these others who don't, and we have to take the good news to them.	你知道，我内心有一股非常强大的力量在对我说，我必须开始在我与学生的关系中开始这么做。我一定要讲一个发生在我身上的小故事。几年前我去听了你的一个演讲，我认为我听得非常非常认真，当然一个演讲的意义并不在于它本身，也许至少对于像我这样的人而言，一个演讲是不够的。或者换一种说法，也许是更诚实的说法，那就是，我当时还没有足够的能力听那个演讲，因为，我现在回想起来，情况似乎是，我们一直在讨论的这些原理，你当时已经阐述得非常非常清楚了。而我离开那个演讲时，却带着这样的印象：你所讲的和佛教很相近，我当时一直思考着这整件贴标签的事，就像学者们习惯于做的那样 ——你知道我们是如何把这世上的一切划分为各个种类的。在我们目前的一系列对话中，我开始看到我过去搞错了，大错特错。而我会强迫自己去思考，你知道，我也许一直在思考的是我以前思考过的事，这些事和你所谈及的任何事情都无关。这揭示了我们要面对的这个事实：一个人走进教室之前，他其实不需要有一个证书才能开始老师的工作。他需要的只是开始观察他所相信的事情本身就会把他与本来秩序井然的学生带入到敌对关系中去……因为我们认为有些事我们必须避免去谈论，因为这些事会造成争吵、破裂并让我们彼此疏离。因此，让我们不要谈论冲突，或者如果我们要讨论冲突，我们就这样来谈：我们是有了光明的人，而其他那些人没有，于是我们必须把福音带给他们。克：就像是一个上师。
37:22	K: It's like a guru.	安：对，但如果他走进教室，很坦白地说：
37:24	A: Right, but simply to come into the room and say, let's have a look without any presuppositions, without my thinking that I have this in hand and you don't, or you have it and I don't. We're going to just hold it together.	让我们一起来探究一下，不做任何假设，不在心里想我有这个而你没有，或是你有而我没有，我们只是一起认真地观察它。克：是的，先生。一起分担。
37:42	K: Right, sir. Share together.	安：一起分担，一起去看
37:44	A: Share it together, and behold... Am I following you? K: Perfectly.	我跟上你说的了吗？克：完全跟上了。安：太好了。
37:50	A: Oh, that's wonderful. I'm going to do this, after our conversation comes to an end, I will walk into that room. Do go on.	在我们的谈话结束之后我就这么去做，我会这样走进教室。请继续。克：所以先生，冲突中产生的能量
38:12	K: So sir, the energy that is created through conflict is destructive. The energy that is created through conflict, struggle, battle produces violence, hysteria, neurotic actions, and so on. Whereas the action of perception is total, non-fragmentary, and therefore it is healthy, sane and brings about such intense care and responsibility. Now, that is the way to live: seeing-acting, seeing-acting all the time. I cannot see, if there is an observer different from the observed. The observer is the observed.	是具有破坏性的。通过冲突、挣扎和斗争所产生的能量，制造了暴力、歇斯底里、神经质的行为等等。然而觉察的行动是完整的、不分裂的，因此是健康的和健全的，也就会带来强烈的关心和责任感。而这才是生活的方式：看到——行动，看到——行动，一直这样。如果观察者有别于所观之物，那么我就看不到。观察者其实就是所观之物。安：这完成了一件了不起的事情，有助于我们所说的
39:17	A: This does a very marvellous thing to what we call our confrontation with death. K: We'll come to that, yes.	直面死亡。克：是的，我们会谈到这个话题的。安：是的，我意识到我
39:25	A: Yes, I see I have made a...	克：……跳转了话题，不，没有，先生，没问题。
39:27	K: ...jump. No, no, sir, that's right. So you see, our whole content of consciousness is the battle, is the battleground, and this battle we call living. And in that battle, how can love exist? If I am hitting you, if I am competing with you, if I am trying to go beyond you, successful, ruthless, where does the flame of love, or compassion, tenderness, gentleness come into all that? It doesn't. And that's why our society as it is now has no sense of moral responsibility with regard to action or with regard to love. It doesn't exist.	所以你看，我们意识的整个内容就是斗争，是一个战场，而我们称这场斗争为生活。那么在这场斗争中，爱怎么能存在呢？如果我在打击你，如果我在和你竞争，如果我想要超过你，变得成功、无情无义，那么爱之火、慈悲、体贴、温柔又怎能来到这当中呢？不能。这就是为什么我们如今的社会是没有道德责任感的，这种责任感和行动有关，或者和爱有关，它根本不存在。安：我回过头来讲一下我在课堂上
40:35	A: I'm going back into the context of my own experience, in the classroom again. It has always seemed to me that the first stanza of the Gita, the first stanza, the first chapter of the Gita, which begins: dharmaksettre Kuruksettre - in the field of Dharma, in the Kuru field - that 'in the Kuru field' is a statement in apposition and that the field is one. I have walked into class when we started to do the Gita, and I've tried to show both linguistically, as it seemed to me was capable from the text, and in terms of the spirit of the whole, that this was really what was being said, that it's one field, it's not two fields, though we have one army over here, and the other over here, but they don't occupy two fields. Somehow it is one field. K: It is our earth.	的亲身经历。我总是觉得，《薄伽梵歌》的第一段，第一节，《薄伽梵歌》的第一章，是这样开始的： dharmaksettre Kuruksettre——在佛法领域里、在库鲁领域里——“在库鲁领域里” 是一种同位语的表达法，表示两者其实是一个领域。我走进教室，然后我们开始学习《薄伽梵歌》，我试图不但从语言上， ——对我来说这是能够从语言上来教授的—— 而且还从整体的精神层面上，去说明这才是它真正要表达的含义：那是同一个领域，并不是两个领域，虽然我们在这里有一支军队，在那里有另外一支军队，但它们并没有占据两个领域。或多或少那是同一个领域。克：就是我们的地球。安：是的，是这个整体。克：是的，先生。
41:36	A: Right. It's the whole. K: Yes, sir.	安：但是，你看，既然我听了你说的话，
41:40	A: But, you see, I think I would have done better now that I've listened to you, if I had gone into class and instead of making that statement, and inviting them to look carefully at the text, and to bear that in mind as we proceed through the teaching, and watch for any misinterpretations of that that will have occurred in commentary after commentary, it would have been better if I had started the other way. It would have been better, if I had started by saying, let's have a look and see together whether it is one field or whether it's a field with conflict. We are not going to read the book at all at this point, we are just going to start here. This is the field. The classroom is the field. Now, let's take a look. That would have been the better way.	我觉得我其实可以做得更好，如果我去上课，就不会那么说，而是邀请他们仔细看看这段文字，然后在我们上课的过程中，时刻记得这句话，并且留意对这段话的所有曲解，这些曲解会出现在一个接一个的注解中。如果我以另一种方式开始这堂课，就会好一些。如果我一开始就这么说，应该会好一些：让我们一起来看看，它们是不是同一个领域或者是不是一个有着冲突的领域。我们现在根本不是要去读这部书，我们只是从这部书开始，这儿就是那个领域。这课堂就是那个领域，现在，让我们一起来看一下。这本该是个更好的的方法。克：如果你了解了这一点，先生，
42:38	K: If you have understood that, sir, the classroom is the field, and if you understand that, you have understood the whole thing.	如果你了解了课堂就是同一个领域，你就了解了这整件事情。安：没错。
42:45	A: Exactly. But I went in with the notion that, though I had grasped that, so I thought it was enough simply to show that verbally. But it's patently not. And this is terrifying. Because even though if you say in the classroom what ostensibly passes for what we call the right thing, it still will not prevail in terms of this act that we've been talking about. K: Act. Quite right. Can we go, sir, from there. We've discussed life, living, in which love does not exist at all. Love can only exist when the perceiver is the perceived and acts, as we said. Then that flame, that compassion, that sense of holding the earth in your arms as it were, if that is understood, and from that - behaviour, because that is the foundation; if there is no behaviour, in the sense of non-conflicting behaviour, then after establishing that in ourselves or in observing it, we can proceed next to the question of death. Because the question of death is an immense thing. To me living, love, and death are not separate. They are one movement. It isn't death over there, which I am going to meet in twenty years or the next day. It is there. It is there with love and with living. It is a continuous movement, non-divisive. This is the way I live, think, feel. That's my life. I mean this. These are not just words to me. So, before we enter into the question of death we have to go into the question of what is consciousness? Because if one doesn't understand what is consciousness, not the explanation, not the description, not the word, but the reality of consciousness. Am I, as a human, ever conscious? And what is to be conscious? What is it to be aware? Am I aware totally, or just occasionally I am aware when a crisis arises, otherwise I am dormant. So that's why it becomes very important to find out what is consciousness. Right, sir? A: Yes. What you have just said seems to me to indicate that we are making a distinction between consciousness, which is a continuing movement, utterly situated in act as over against these blips, these eruptions virtually, within the sleepy course of nature.	但是我走进教室时带着这个想法：既然我已经领会了它，所以我以为可以很轻易地用语言表达出来，但显然不是这样的。这很可怕，因为即使你在课堂上说了一些从表面上被认定是所谓的正确的事，但就我们已经讨论过的那种行动而言，那还是没有说服力。克：行动，没错。先生，我们能否就从这点开始探讨呢？我们已经讨论过了那种根本没有爱的生命、生活。当觉知者就是所觉知之物并且行动起来的时候，爱才能存在，就像我们说过的那样。然后就有了那火焰、那慈悲，那种仿佛双臂拥抱着整个大地的感觉。如果了解了这种感受，就会从中萌发——行动，因为这些是一切的基础；如果没有这种行动，也就是毫无冲突的行动，那么只有从我们自己的内在或是在观察中建立了这样的基础后，我们才可以继续探究下一个有关死亡的问题，因为死亡的问题是一件大事。对我而言，生活、爱和死亡是不可分割的，它们是同一个运动。不是什么死亡在那边，是我在二十年后或是明天要遇到的事情。它就在那里，和爱、和生活同在，这是一个持续不断的运动，不可分割。我就是这样生活、思考和感受的，这就是我的生活，我是说真的，这些对我来说不仅仅只是言语。因此，在我们讨论死亡的问题之前，我们得讨论一下这个问题：什么是意识？因为如果一个人不了解什么是意识—— 不是对意识的解释、也不是对它的描述、不是言词，而是了解意识这一事实。作为一个人，我究竟是不是有意识？那么什么是有意识？什么是有觉知？我是否全然地觉知，或者只是当危机出现时，偶尔有所觉知，而其他时候则是昏睡的？这就是为什么弄清楚什么是意识这件事变得如此重要，对吗，先生？安：是的。我认为你刚才所说的似乎是指：我们区分了意识，这个连续的、完全贯穿于行动中的运动，和那些在自然睡眠过程中实际出现的断点和爆发情况。克：你说得对。安：是的。我明白了，是的，是的。请接着讲下去。
47:11	K: That's right. A: Yes. I see that. Yes, yes. Please go ahead.	克：那么，什么是意识？
47:15	K: So, what is consciousness? Consciousness is its content. - I am putting it very simply. I prefer to talk about these things very simply, not elaborate, linguistic descriptions and theories, and suppositions, and all the rest of it. That has no meaning to me personally.	意识就是它的内容。 ——我说得很简单。我宁可用很简单的方式讨论这些，而不是给出过分详尽的、堆砌语言的描述、理论和假设，以及诸如此类的一切，对我个人而言，那些都毫无意义。安：如果它是真实的，它就很简单。克：很简单。
47:40	A: If it is true, it will be simple. K: Simple.	安：是的，当然。
47:43	A: Yes, of course.	克：意识就是它的内容，
47:46	K: Consciousness is its content. The content is consciousness. The two are not separate. That is, the thoughts, the anxieties, the identifications, the conflicts, the attachments, detachments, the fears, the pleasures, the agony, the suffering, the beliefs, the neurotic actions - all that is my consciousness. Because that is the content.	内容就是意识，二者是不可分割的。也就是说，思想、焦虑、认同、冲突、执着、超脱、恐惧、快乐、苦恼、痛苦、信仰以及那些神经质的行为——所有这些都是我的意识，因为这些就是内容。安：这和”世界就是我，我就是世界”
48:27	A: This is an equivalent statement to 'The world is me and I am the world'. So there's a continuity there. K: Yes, that's right. So, the content which says: that is my furniture, that's my God, that's my belief, - with all its nuances and subtleties - is part of my consciousness, is part of the consciousness which says: I am. I am that, I am the furniture. When I identify myself saying: that's my furniture, I must keep it - you follow? - when I am attached to it, I am that. I am that knowledge, which says, I have acquired knowledge, I have grown in it, I have been successful in it, it has given me great comfort, it has given me a house, a position, power. That house is me. The battle which I have been through - suffering, agony - that's me, that's my consciousness. So consciousness is its content, therefore there is no division as consciousness separate from its content. I can extend or widen the consciousness, horizontally or vertically, but it is still within that field. I can extend it saying, God is immense. That's my belief. And I've extended my consciousness by imagining that it is extended. Whatever thought has created in the world and inside me is the content. The whole world, especially in the West, is based on thought. Its activities, its explorations, its achievements, its religions, and so on, is fundamentally the result of thought with its images, and so on, so on, so on. So that is the content of consciousness. Right? A: Right.	这种说法一样。所以这里有一种连续性。克：是的，没错。因此，这些内容表达着：那是我的家具，那是我的上帝，那是我的信仰， ——及其所有细微的、微妙的差别—— 这些内容就是我意识的一部分，就是那个意识在说：我是……。我是那个，我是家具。当我通过说“那是我的家具”来给自己认同感时，我就必须拥有它——你明白吗？—— 当我依附于它时，我就是它。我就是那些知识，我说，我获得了知识，我从中成长，也从中获得成功，它给了我巨大的安慰，它给了我房子、职位和权力。那栋房子就是我，这场我所经历的斗争 ——痛苦、挣扎——就是我，这就是我的意识。所以意识就是它所包含的内容，因此不存在意识独立于它的内容这样的分别。我可以延伸或是拓宽我的意识，从深度上或是广度上去拓宽，但依然还是在那个领域之内。我可以扩展它，说，上帝是无限的，这是我的信仰。于是我就通过想象上帝是无限扩展的，从而扩展了我的意识。而无论思想在这个世界上以及我的内在创造了什么，都属于那个内容。全世界，特别是西方，都是建立在思想之上的，它的活动、探索、取得的成就以及各派宗教等等，从根本上讲都是带着各种意象等等的思想的结果。这些都是意识的内容，对吗？安：是的。克：那么，从这里就出现了这个问题：什么是死亡？
51:16	K: Now, from that arises, what is death? Is death the ending of consciousness - with its content - or is death a continuity of that consciousness? Your consciousness is not different from mine. It may have little variations, little modifications, little more expansion, little contraction, and so on, but essentially consciousness is yours as well as mine, because I am attached to my house, so are you. I am attached to my knowledge, I am attached to my family, I am in despair whether I live in India, or in England, or in America, wherever it is. So that consciousness is common. It is irrefutable. You follow, sir? A: Oh, yes. I do follow closely.	死亡是不是意识的终结？ ——连同它的内容—— 还是说死亡是意识的继续？你的意识和我的并没有不同。我们的意识也许有细微的差别、细微的调整，细微的扩展、细微的缩减，等等，但是从本质上来说，你的意识和我的是一样的。因为我依附于我的房子，你也一样。我依附于我的知识，我依附于我的家庭，无论我生活在印度还是英格兰，或是美国，无论在哪里，我都一样绝望。所以这种意识是人类共有的，这是不可辩驳的。你明白吗，先生？安：哦，是的，我确实明白。克：所以，看看发生了什么。
52:27	K: So, see what happens. I never have examined this content. I have never looked at it closely and I am frightened, frightened of something which I call death, the unknown. Let us call it for the moment the unknown. So, I'm frightened. There is no answer to it. Somebody comes along and says, yes, my friend, there is life after death. I have proof for it. I know it exists because I have met my brother, my son - we will go into that presently. So I, frightened, anxious, fearful, diseased - you follow? - I accept that tremendously, instantly say, yes, there is reincarnation. I am going to be born next life. And that life is related to karma. The word 'karma' means to act. A: Yes.	我从来没有审视过这些内容，我从来没有认真看过这些，我害怕，害怕那件被称为死亡的事，那个未知的东西。让我们暂且称之为“未知”。因此，我很害怕。没有应对它的答案。有人走过来，说：“是的，我的朋友，死后还会有来世，我能证明，我知道来世的存在，因为我已经见过我的兄弟和儿子了” ——我们一会儿再探讨这个。所以，我很害怕、很焦虑、很恐惧、身患疾病 ——你明白吗？——我完全接受了那个观念，立刻就说：“是的，转世是存在的，我会在来世重生。” 而来世和业有关。 “业"这个词意味着行动。安：是的。克：完全不是有关它的那些废话，而只是行动。
53:47	K: Not all the rigmarole involved in it, just to act. See what is involved. That is, if I believe in reincarnation, that is, this consciousness with its content, which is the 'me' - my ego, my self, my activities, my hopes, pleasures, all that is my consciousness - that consciousness is going to be born next life, which is the common consciousness of you and me, and him, and her. That's going to be born next life. And they say, if you behave properly now, you'll be rewarded next life. That's part of the causation.	看看这里涉及到了什么，也就是说，如果我相信轮回转世，也就是说，这个意识，以及它的内容，也就是这个”我“——自我、我自己、我的行为、我的希望、快乐、所有这些都是我的意识—— 这个意识会在来世再生，这也就是你和我共同的意识，不光你我，还有他和她。这将在来世重生。他们说，如果你现在行为端正，你来世就会得到回报，这是因果的一部分。安：这是意识内容的一部分。
54:40	A: That's part of the content of consciousness.	克：因和果。安：是的。
54:42	K: Causation and the effect. A: Yes.	克：所以要行为端正，否则来世你会受到惩罚。
54:46	K: So behave, because you are going to be punished next life. You will be rewarded next life. The whole of the Eastern world is based on it, believes in reincarnation. So what happens? I have taken comfort in a belief, but actually I don't carry it out: which says, behave now, be good now, don't hurt another now.	或者你会在来世得到奖赏。整个东方世界都以这个信仰为基础，都相信轮回转世。那么发生了什么？我从信仰中得到了安慰，但事实上，我并没有实行它：也就是说，现在就行为端正，现在就行善，现在就不去伤害别人。安：事实上这个“我现在应该行为端正”的想法，
55:24	A: Actually the idea is that I should behave now, - we've been through this 'ought' stuff - I should this, I should that, I should the other because of what will take place later. But then I take comfort in the thought that it's an endless process, and it's somehow built into it that I'll get another chance. So I can sort of stall, I can stall.	——我们已经讨论过了“应该”这种事情—— 我应该这样、我应该那样。我应该那样，只是为了以后可能会发生的事。但然后我又从思想中得到了安慰，这是一个没完没了的过程，而这种想法或多或少已经深入内心了：我会得到另一个机会，所以我可以拖延一会儿，我可以拖延。克：我可以拖延，可以延迟，我可以行为不端。
55:50	K: I can stall. I can postpone, I can misbehave.	安：是的，因为我们最终注定都会达到目的。
55:53	A: Yes. Because we are all destined to make it in the end.	克：最终达到。安：是的。这表明他们并没有理解
55:57	K: Eventually.	在我们这些对话中你所讲的重点：
55:59	A: Yes. Which shows that there's no grasp of what throughout these conversations you've been talking about, the immediacy and urgency of act. K: Act. That's right.	行动的即刻性和紧迫性。克：行动，没错。安：是的，是的，我能跟得上。克：所以，你看，
56:09	A: Yes, yes, I follow. K: So, you see, the Hindus probably were the originators of this idea: cause, effect. The effect will be modified by next causation. So there is this endless chain. And they say, it's endless, we'll break it sometime. Therefore doesn't matter what you do now. Belief gives you great comfort in believing that you will continue, you will be with your brother, wife, husband, whatever it is. But in the meantime don't bother too seriously, don't take life too seriously. A: Exactly, yes, yes.	印度教可能就是这种想法的始作俑者：因和果。果将会被下一个因改变。所以这里就有一个无止境的链条。而他们说：“它是没有尽头，但我们总会在某一刻打破它的。因此，你现在所做的都无关紧要。” 信仰给了你巨大的安慰：相信你会继续存在下去，你会和你的兄弟、妻子、丈夫等等在一起。但同时，不要太过认真，对待生活不要太认真。安：没错，是的，是的。克：事实上要过得开心点儿，尽情享受。
57:01	K: Have a good time, in fact. Enjoy yourself. Or do whatever you want to do, pay a little next life, but carry on.	或是去做任何你想做的事，来世付点儿代价，但是你可以继续这样下去。安：我曾和一个很出名的印度教老师谈论过这件事，
57:09	A: I was speaking to a well-known Hindu teacher about this and I made this very remark that you have just stated, and I thought it would have some force. And I said, you see, there's no hope of stopping repeating, if an act is not made immediately with respect to this, therefore in terms of the content of the consciousness of a whole people that bask in this notion, there can be nothing but an endless repetition and no true concern.	我把你刚才所说的话向他陈述了一遍，我认为这会有一定的力量。我说： “你看，停止这种重复是无望的，如果对此所做出的行动不是即刻的，那么就所有沉浸在转世想法中的人他们意识的内容而言，除了无休止的重复以外，什么也没有，也并不真正关心这件事。” 克：那他是怎么说的？安：他只是笑，
57:45	K: What did he say? A: All he did was laugh, as though I had somehow perceived something which most people apparently are not really bothering their heads to look at. But the extraordinary thing to me was that he showed no concern for what he discerned intellectually.	就好像我所觉察到的这些，显然是大部分人不愿意真正费工夫去看的。但在我看来有件令人诧异的事情是，他对从理智上已经领悟的事显得漠不关心。克：先生，那就是他们实际的样子，伪善——你明白吗，先生？
58:07	K: Sir, that's what they are, hypocrites - you follow, sir? They are hypocrites, when they believe that and do something quite contrary.	他们是伪君子，他们相信那些，却做着截然相反的事情。安：没错，我明白你的意思。你所说的，就是
58:16	A: Precisely, I understand what you mean. What you are saying, there is the usage of the Biblical notion of hypocrite in that strict sense.	圣经典籍中对伪善很精准的注解。克：先生，很精准当然。安：是的，很精准。
58:24	K: Sir, in the strict sense, of course. A: Yes, in the very strict sense. In our next conversation could we continue with this, because...	我们下一次对话，是否可以继续这个话题，因为克：哦，这里涉及了很多内容。安：太好了，我对此非常期待。
58:32	K: Oh, there is a great deal involved in this.	克：好的，我们会探讨的。
58:33	A: Splendid. I do look forward to that.
58:36	K: Yes. We'll go into it.