克里希那穆提 - 死亡、生命和爱是不可分割的

Krishnamurti Subtitles

SD74CA14 - 死亡、生命和爱是不可分割的
与艾伦·W·安德森博士的第十四次对话
美国，加利福尼亚，圣地亚哥
1974年2月26日

0:38	Krishnamurti in Dialogue with Dr. Allan W. Anderson	克里希那穆提与艾伦·W·安德森博士的对话 J·克里希那穆提出生于南印度，
0:43	J. Krishnamurti was born in South India and educated in England. For the past 40 years he has been speaking in the United States, Europe, India, Australia, and other parts of the world. From the outset of his life's work he repudiated all connections with organised religions and ideologies and said that his only concern was to set man absolutely unconditionally free. He is the author of many books, among them The Awakening of Intelligence, The Urgency of Change, Freedom From the Known, and The Flight of the Eagle. This is one of a series of dialogues between Krishnamurti and Dr. Allan W. Anderson, who is professor of religious studies at San Diego State University where he teaches Indian and Chinese scriptures and the oracular tradition. Dr. Anderson, a published poet, received his degree from Columbia University and the Union Theological Seminary. He has been honoured with the distinguished Teaching Award from the California State University.	之后在英国接受教育。在过去的40年里，他曾在美国、欧洲、印度、澳大利亚和世界其他地方演讲。从他毕生工作的一开始，他就和所有组织化的宗教和意识形态断绝了关系，然后宣称他唯一关心的是让人类彻底地、无条件地自由。他出版了很多著作，其中包括：《智慧的觉醒》、《转变的紧迫性》、《从已知中解脱》和《鹰的翱翔》。这是克里希那穆提和艾伦·W·安德森博士的系列对话之一。安德森博士是宗教学教授，任教于圣地亚哥州立大学，教授印度与中国的经典，以及传统神谕文化。安德森博士出版过诗作，在哥伦比亚大学和协和神学院获得学位。他也曾获得过加利福尼亚州立大学所颁发的杰出教育奖。安：克里希那穆提先生，在我们上次的谈话中，
1:49	A: Mr. Krishnamurti, in our last conversation we were beginning to talk about consciousness and its relation to death in the context of living as a total movement. K: Yes.	在把生活看作是一个整体运动的背景下，我们开始谈到了意识以及它和死亡的关系。克：是的。安：在谈话的最后，当我们准备收尾的时候，
2:06	A: And we even touched on the word 'reincarnation' toward the end, when we had to draw our conversation to its conclusion. I do hope that we can begin to continue there.	我们甚至提到了“轮回转世”这个词。我很希望今天我们可以从这里继续探讨。
2:21	K: You see, one of the factors in death is the mind is so frightened. We are so frightened of that very word and nobody talks about it. I mean it isn't a daily conversation. It is something to be avoided, something that is inevitable, for God's sake, keep it as far away as possible.	克：你看，关于死亡的一个事实就是心智是如此恐惧。我们是如此害怕这个词以至于没有人会去谈论它。我的意思是它并非日常谈话的一个内容。而是某种需要去回避，却又不可避免的东西，我们说看在老天的份上，让它离我们越远越好。
2:54	A: We even paint corpses to make them look as if they are not dead. K: That's the most absurd thing. Now, what we are discussing, sir, is, isn't it, the understanding of death, its relation to living, and this thing called love. One cannot possibly understand the immensity - and it is immense, this thing called death - unless there is a real freedom from fear. That's why we talked sometime ago about the problem of fear. Unless the mind frees itself from fear, there is no possibility of understanding the extraordinary beauty, strength, and the vitality of death.	安：我们甚至会给尸体化妆，让它们看起来好像还健在一样。克：这是最愚蠢荒唐的事情。而现在我们讨论的，先生，是对死亡的了解，死亡与生活的关系，以及那个被称为爱的东西，不是吗？我们是不可能了解那个无限的事物的 ——而这个被称之为死亡的事物，它广阔无边—— 除非我们真正摆脱了恐惧。这就是为什么之前我们要讨论恐惧这个问题的原因。除非心智把自己从恐惧中解脱出来，否则我们就不可能了解死亡那非凡的美、力量与活力。安：这是一种非常精彩的表述：
4:02	A: That's a very, very remarkable way to put it: the vitality of death. And yet, normally, we regard it as the total negation of life. K: The negation of life. That's right. So, if we are enquiring into this question of death, fear must be completely non-existent in us. Then I can proceed. Then I can find out what death means. We have touched a little bit on reincarnation, the belief that is maintained throughout the East, which has no reality in daily life. It is like going to church every Sunday and being mischievous for the rest of the six days. So - you follow? - a person who is really serious, really attentive, goes into this question of death, he must understand what it means, the quality of it, not the ending of it. That's what we are going to a little bit discuss. The ancient Egyptians, the pharaohs, and all the first dynasty till the 18th, and so on, they prepared for death. They said, we will cross that river with all our goods, with all our chariots, with all our belongings, with all our property, and therefore their caves, their tombs were filled with all the things of their daily life - corn, you know all that. So, living was only a means to an ending, dying. That's one way of looking at it. The other is reincarnation, which is the Indian, Asiatic outlook. And there is this whole idea of resurrection, of the Christians. Reborn, carried by Gabriel Angel,etc., to heaven, and you will be rewarded. Now, what is the fact? These are all theories, suppositions, beliefs, and non-facts. I mean, supposed to be born, Jesus comes out of the grave, resurrected physically. That is just a belief. There were no cameras then, there were no ten people to say, yes, I saw it. It is only somebody imagined. We will go into that a little bit later. So, there is this living and preparing for death as the ancient Egyptians did. Then there is the reincarnation. Then there is resurrection. Now, if one isn't frightened - you follow, sir? - deeply, then what is death? What is it that dies, apart from the organism? The organism may continue, if you look after it very carefully, for eighty, or ninety, or one hundred years. If you have no disease, if you have no accidents, if there is a way of living sanely, healthily, perhaps you will last one hundred years or 110 years. And then what? You follow, sir? You will live one hundred years, for what? For this kind of life? Fighting, quarrelling, bickering, bitterness, anger, jealousy, futility, a meaningless existence. It is a meaningless existence as we are living now.	死亡的活力。然而通常来说我们却把死亡看作是一种对生命彻底的否定。克：对生命的否定。没错。所以，如果我们要探询死亡这个问题，我们的内心就必须完全没有恐惧。那样我才可以往下探索。那样我才能发现死亡的意义。我们已经稍稍触及到了一点轮回转世的问题，那种整个东方一直以来所秉持的信仰。而它在日常生活中没有任何真实意义可言。这就像在每个周日去教堂祷告却在其余六天为非作歹一样。所以——你明白吗？—— 一个真正认真，真正关心并探究死亡问题的人，他就必须了解它的意义，它的品质，而不是死亡问题的解决。这就是我们要来稍作讨论的问题。古埃及人，那些法老，所有埃及第一王朝直到第十八王朝的君王们等等，他们都为死亡做了准备。他们说，我将会带着我所有的东西，所有的战车，所有的占有物和所有的财产渡过那条死亡之河，因此他们的墓穴和陵墓里堆满了他们日常生活中的各种物品 ——玉米谷物等等，这些你都知道。所以，生活仅仅变成了一种通向终点，通向死亡的手段。这是一种看待死亡的方式。另一种则是轮回转世的观念，那是印度人和亚洲人的看法。然后基督教里还有这一整套关于复活的概念。死后重生，然后被加百列天使等等带往天堂，在那里获得你的福报。那么，究竟哪个才是事实呢？所有这些都只是理论、猜测、信仰，而并非事实。我的意思是，认为耶稣从坟墓里爬起来重获生命，身体得以复活，这只是一种信仰而已。那时并没有照相机，没有十个目击者可以说，是的，我亲眼见到他重生了。这只是某些人的想象而已。这些东西我们随后再来讨论吧。所以，人们过着这种为死亡做准备的生活，就如古埃及人那样。我们还有轮回转世的观念，以及复活重生的观念。然而，如果一个人内心深处不感到害怕 ——你明白吗，先生？—— 那么什么是死亡？除了生理机体之外，是什么东西死去了？如果你精心照料身体，身体组织也许能活得久一点， 80年、90或者100年。如果你没有疾病，没发生意外，并且有着一种健康的、理智的生活方式的话，那么也许你可以活上100年，甚至110年。然后呢？你明白吗，先生？你会活上100年，可为了什么呢？就为了现在这种生活？斗争、不和、争吵、怨恨、愤怒、嫉妒、空虚，一种毫无意义的存在。我们现在的生活就是一种毫无意义的存在。安：依照我们之前的说法，
8:36	A: And in terms of our previous remarks, this is all the content of our consciousness. K: Our consciousness. That's right. So, what is it that dies? And what is it one is frightened of? You follow? What is it, one is frightened of in death? Losing the known? Losing my wife? Losing my house? Losing all the things I have acquired? Losing this content of consciousness? You follow? So, can the content of consciousness be totally emptied? You follow, sir?	所有这些都是我们意识的内容。克：我们的意识，没错。所以，那个死亡的东西是什么？我们害怕的是什么？你明白吗？我们对死亡恐惧的是什么？害怕失去那些已知的事物？失去我的妻子？失去我的房子？失去我所获得的一切？失去意识中的那些内容？你明白吗？所以，意识的内容可以被彻底清空吗？你明白吗，先生？安：是的，我明白。克：那才是生活。
9:28	A: Yes, I do. K: Which is the living. The dying is the living, when the content is totally emptied. That means no attachment. It isn't a brutal cutting off, but the understanding of attachment, the understanding of dependency, the understanding of acquisition, power, position, anxiety - all that. The emptying of that is the real death. And therefore the emptying of consciousness means the consciousness, which has created its own limitation by its content, comes to an end. I wonder if I have... A: Yes, you have. I was following you very carefully, and it occurred to me that there is a radical relation between birth and death, that the two, when they are looked upon as moments in a total cycle, are not grasped at the depth level that you are beginning to speak about.	当意识的内容被完全清空以后，那时死亡即是生活。那意味着无所执着。但它并不是去野蛮地断除执着，而是去了解你所执着之物，了解你的依赖，了解占有、权力、地位、焦虑 ——所有这些东西。清空所有这些东西就是真正的死亡。因此意识的清空就意味着那种经由自己的内容制造出自身局限的意识的终结。我不知道是否我…… 安：是的，很清楚。我一直在认真地听，你的话让我想到了出生和死亡这两者之间所存在的一种本质上的联系，那就是当这两者被看作是一个整体循环中的不同时点时，那么我们就无法领会你要说的那些深层的意义了。克：是的，先生。安：这样说对吗？克：对。安：很好，请继续。克：所以，死亡会变成生活——
11:09	K: Yes, sir. A: Am I correct?	当意识的内容 ——意识制造了自身的边界、自身的局限——
11:10	K: Correct. A: Good, please do go on.	终结时。
11:13	K: So, death becomes a living when the content of consciousness, which makes its own frontier, its own limitation, comes to an end. And this is not a theory, not a speculative intellectual grasp, but the actual perception of attachment. I am taking that as an example. Being attached to something - property, man, woman, the book I have written, or the knowledge I have acquired. The attachment. And the battle to be detached. Because attachment brings pain. Therefore I say to myself, I must be detached. And the battle begins. And the whole content of my consciousness is this - the battle which we described previously. Now, can that content be emptied - empty itself? Not emptied by an act of perception, you understand? - empty itself. Which means: can this whole content be observed with its unconscious content? You follow, sir? A: Yes, I do. I'm thinking...	这并不是一个理论，也不是思想上猜测性的理解，而是真正洞察到了那些执着。让我来举个例子吧。我们执着于某些东西 ——财产、男人、女人、我写的书或者我获得的知识。那些执着。以及摆脱执着的斗争。因为执着带来了痛苦。因此我对自己说，我必须摆脱执着。于是战斗就开始了。而我意识的全部内容就是这种我们之前描述过的战斗。那么，这些内容可以被清空吗 ——清空自己？不是通过某种洞察的行动去清空它，你明白了吗？——而是自我清空。也就是说：意识的全部内容以及它无意识的内容可以被观察到吗？你明白吗，先生？安：是的，我明白。我在想克：我可以有意识地去觉察我意识的内容
13:00	K: I can be consciously aware of the content of my consciousness - my house, my property, my wife, my children, my job, the things I have acquired, the things I have learned. I can be consciously aware of all that. But also there is a deeper content in the very recesses of my mind, which is racial, collective, acquired, the things that unconsciously I have gathered, the influences, the pressures, the strains of living in a world that is corrupt. All that has seeped in, all that has gathered in there.	——我的房子，我的财产，我的妻子，我的孩子，我的工作，那些我所获得的东西，那些我所学到的东西。我可以有意识地觉察所有这些。但是，在我心智的最深处，还有着更深层次的内容，那些种族和集体获得的东西，生活在这个腐败世界上我无意识中积累起来的影响、压力和紧张。所有这些都渗透到了意识中，并且在那里堆积起来。安：既有个人的也有非个人的。克：非个人的，是的，没错。安：这里就涉及到了
13:50	A: Both personal and impersonal.	那些深度心理学家所说的 “集体无意识”。克：我不知道他们是如何称呼它的。安：此外还有个人意识。
13:52	K: Impersonal, yes, that's right.	克：既有集体的也有…… 所以存在着这些意识。那么，它们可以被暴露出来吗？
13:54	A: This includes then what the depth psychologists are calling 'collective unconscious'. K: I don't know what they call it.	因为这非常重要。如果心智真的想要了解和领悟死亡的全部意义和
14:00	A: As well as the personal consciousness.	它的广袤无限的话，那么心智就要具有这种能够说 “是的，清空了！”的伟大品质 ——你明白吗？
14:03	K: Collective as well as... So there is that. Now, can all that be exposed? Because this is very important. If the mind really wants to understand, grasp the full meaning of death, the vastness of it, the great quality of a mind that says, yes, that's empty! - you follow? It gives a tremendous vitality, energy. So, my question is: can the mind be aware totally of all the content, hidden as well as the open, the collective, the personal, the racial, the transitory? You follow? The whole of that. Now, we say it is possible through analysis.	这会带来一种巨大的活力与能量。所以我的问题就是：心智能否完全地觉察到所有的意识内容，既包括隐藏的也包括显露的，所有集体的、个人的、种族的和短暂的意识？你明白吗？所有这些。而我们说可以通过分析去实现这一点。安：是的，我们是这样认为的。克：但我说过分析是无力的。
15:07	A: Yes, we do.	因为如果要分析，那么每一个分析都必须是完美无缺的。
15:08	K: I said analysis is paralysis. Because every analysis must be perfect, complete. And you are frightened that it might not be complete. And if you have not completed it, you carry it over as a memory, which will then analyse the next incident. So each analysis brings its own incompleteness.	因此你会害怕自己的分析也许不够完整。而如果你没有把那个分析完成的话，那么你就会继续带着它，从而使它变成了一个记忆，然后这个记忆会去分析下一个事件。所以每一个分析都导致了其自身的不完整。安：哦，毫无疑问是这样的。克：因此它是彻底徒劳的。
15:41	A: Oh, certainly, yes. K: Therefore it is a total paralysis.	安：在跟随你讲话的过程中，非常吸引我的一点是我们通常所认为的死亡，
15:48	A: In following what you are saying I'm very taken with what we usually regard as death, which has a very clear relationship to what you've said about the endless series of analytical acts. K: Acts. Yes, sir.	它和你所谈论过的无止尽的分析行为有着一种显然的关联。克：分析行为，是的，先生。安：我们把死亡看作是一条直线上的终点。
16:07	A: We regard death as terminus in terms of a line.	克：没错，因为我们只是在横向地思考。安：横向地思考，确实如此。而你的意思则是：
16:12	K: Quite, because we think laterally.	恰恰相反，我们必须纵向地来看待死亡。克：是的。
16:15	A: We think laterally, exactly. But what you're saying is: on the contrary, we must regard this vertically. K: Yes.	安：在纵向看待死亡的过程中，我们就不再会认为
16:25	A: And in the regarding of it vertically we no longer see - please check me if I am off here - we no longer see death as simply a moment of termination to a certain trajectory of repetition. But there is a total qualitative change here, which is not the cessation of something that we have to regret as though we had lost something valuable.	——请检查一下是否我理解有误—— 我们就不再会把死亡看成仅仅是重复性轨道上的一个终点时刻了。而是在这里会产生一种完全的质变，它不再是我们需要去惋惜的某种事物的终止，就好像我们失去了某个宝贵的东西一样。克：是的，我即将告别我的妻子和孩子。安：对。
17:08	K: Yes, I am leaving my wife and children. A: Right.	克：告别我的财产和我该死的银行账户。
17:11	K: And my property, my blasted bank account.	安：是的，是的。克：所以你看，先生，如果我们可以深入下去的话：
17:18	A: Yes, yes. K: You see, sir, if one can go very deeply into this: there is this content, which is my consciousness, acquired, inherited, imposed, influenced, propaganda, attachment, detachment, anxiety, fear, pleasure - all that, and also the hidden things. I'm asking myself, since analysis is really paralysis, - not an intellectual supposition but, actually, it is not a complete act, analysis can never produce a complete act. The very word 'analysis' means to break up, you know, the breaking up.	我们就会发现这些内容，也就是我的意识，各种获得的、继承的、被强加的，被影响的意识，各种宣传、执着、放弃，焦虑、恐惧、快感——所有这些，还有那些隐藏的内容。于是我问自己，由于分析确实是徒劳无用的， ——这并不是一种思想上的推测，而是事实上，分析就是一种不完整的行动—— 因此它永远无法产生完整的行动。 “分析”这个词本身就意味着拆分，你知道，打破拆散。安：把它拆卸开来。克：把它拆卸开来，拆分开来。
18:11	A: To loosen up. K: Loosen up, break it up. Therefore I reject that totally. I won't analyse, because I see the stupidity, the paralytic process of it. Then what am I to do? You are following? Because that's the tradition, introspective, or analysis by myself or by a professional, which is now the fashion, and so on, so on, so on. So if the mind sees the truth of it, and therefore analysis falls away, then what is the mind to do with the content? You...	所以我彻底摒弃了分析。我不会再去分析，因为我看到了它的愚蠢和徒劳的过程。那么我该怎么做呢？你明白吗？因为这是一种传统做法，我自己去反省和分析，或者请某个专业人士来帮我分析 ——现在这些很流行，等等等等。所以如果心智看到了它的真相，从而放弃了分析的话，那么心智要怎样对待那些意识内容呢？你是否…… 安：是的，我明白你的意思。
19:04	A: Yes, I do see that.	克：我们都知道那些内容是什么。对此我们已无需赘述。
19:07	K: We know what the content is. We don't have to eternally describe. Now, what is it to do? It has to be emptied. Otherwise it is mere continuity.	那么，它要怎么做呢？它必须被清空。否则它就只会成为一种延续。安：是的，去分析已经存在的东西是没用的，
19:21	A: No, there is no use analysing what is already there, because that will not change what is there in any way, shape or form. That seems to be very, very plain. Perhaps you would for a moment explain why we simply refuse to see that. We do believe that an analytical enquiry is ordered to a revelation. We do believe that. K: No, sir. You can see it in a minute. Analysis implies the analyser and the analysed. A: Yes.	因为无论如何这都无法改变那个已存的事物，无论是状态还是形式。这似乎是很简单的道理。或许这会儿你可以来解释一下为什么我们都拒绝去看这一点，反而去相信分析性的提问能够带来启示。我们的确对此深信不疑。克：不，先生。你可以立即就明白这一点。分析就暗示了分析者和被分析对象。安：是的。克：分析者就是被分析对象。
20:06	K: The analyser is the analysed.	安：是的，我们又再次回到了观察者就是被观之物上面。克：这是显而易见的！我在分析着自己的愤怒。
20:12	A: Yes, we are back to the observer and the observed.	那么谁是那个分析者？那个碎片的一部分，也就是愤怒。
20:15	K: Obviously! I am analysing my anger. Who is the analyser? Part of the fragment, which is anger. So, the analyser pretends to be different from the analysed. But when I see the truth that the analyser is the analysed, then a totally different action takes place. Then there is no conflict between the analyser and the analysed. There is instant action, a perception, which is the ending and going beyond the 'what is'.	所以，分析者假装自己和那个被分析对象是不同的。但是当我看到了那个分析者就是被分析对象这个真相时，那么一种截然不同的行动便会产生。那时就不会有分析者和被分析对象之间的冲突。而是会有一种即刻的行动和感知，而这就能让我们结束和超越那个“现在如何”的事实。安：我要求你解释它，是因为
20:54	A: The reason I asked for the explanation was because of the concern raised earlier about knowledge.	之前我们曾关注过知识的问题。克：是的。本质上来说，观察者就是知识。
21:01	K: Yes. After all, the observer is knowledge.	安：是的，我所关心的是
21:06	A: Yes, I was concerned that study, in its proper form was not regarded - in the context of our discussion - as unprofitable as such. K: No, no, of course not.	形式合理的分析研究并非被认为 ——在我们讨论的背景下—— 那样没有意义。克：不，不，当然不是。安：我们的意思也不是这个。克：这点我们甚至都不会讨论。
21:24	A: We don't mean that. K: We didn't even discuss it. That's so obvious. A: Exactly. Yes, fine, do go. Well, yes, it is obvious in terms of our discussion, but the thing that concerns me is that so ingrained is the notion that... For instance, in the story I told you about, when I came to hear you years ago, I began doing analysis while I was listening to your words, and consequently I could hardly end up with anything qualitatively different from what I came in with. But you see, I didn't see that at the time. And in our videotaping our conversations here, this will be listened to, and when we say 'yes' about knowledge, this is obvious - in the context of our conversation it is. But then I'm thinking of...	这是显而易见的。安：对，很好，请继续下去。是的，就我们的讨论而言这是一件显而易见的事情，但是我所关心的是那种根深蒂固的想法举个例子来说，这个故事我以前也和你说过，那就是多年前我来听你演讲，当我在听你讲话的时候，我会开始分析，结果就是在演讲结束以后我很难与来的时候有什么本质上的不同。但是你看，那个时候我并没有明白这一点。而就在拍摄我们对话的过程中，观众会听到我们的讨论，而我们肯定了知识，这是显而易见的 ——就我们对话的背景来看。但是然后我就在想…… 克：并不只是在我们对话的背景下，
22:14	K: Not only in the context of our conversation, it is so. A: It is as such.	它就是如此。安：事实就是如此。克：生活就是这样。安：确实如此，我同意，但是立刻我就联想到了
22:18	K: Life is that. A: Exactly, I couldn't agree, but immediately I flashed back to my own behaviour, and I know that I was not alone in that, because I listened to other conversations regarding it at the time. But, yes, I see what you mean now about analysis as such. It seems to me very clear. K: Analysis implies, sir, the analyser and the analysed.	自己的行为，然后我明白了我并非只在你的谈话中如此，因为那个时候我也听了一些其他的关于知识的谈话。但是，没问题，我已经明白你现在关于分析所说的意思了。我已经非常清楚了。克：先生，分析就意味着，有分析者和被分析对象。安：确实如此。克：而分析者就是被分析对象。
22:44	A: Precisely. K: The analyser is the analysed. And also analysis implies time, duration. I must take time to unearth, to uncover, and it will take me rest of my life.	同样，分析也暗示着时间和延续。我必须花费时间去发掘，去揭示，而这将会花费掉我的全部余生。安：这也是我们对死亡的困惑，
23:00	A: This is a confusion we have about death too, death's relation to time.	死亡与时间的关系。克：对。我正要讲这一点。安：哦，当然，没问题，请讲。
23:04	K: That's right. I'm coming to that.	克：所以心智在洞察到了这点以后，就彻底抛弃了分析。
23:06	A: Yes, of course, yes, please do, please.	并不是因为分析无利可图，也不是因为它无法带领我达到我想去的地方，
23:09	K: So, the mind, perceiving, discards analysis completely. Not because it's not profitable, not because it doesn't get me where I want, but I see the impossibility of emptying the consciousness of its content, if the mind approaches through that channel: analyser, time, and the utter futility - at the end of 40 years I am still analysing.	而是我看到了心智是不可能通过这个途径来清空它自身的意识内容的：分析者、时间，这些都毫无意义 ——40年以后我依然在分析。安：但我意识的内容
23:50	A: And the content of my consciousness has not qualitatively changed at all. K: Changed at all.	却还是没有发生任何质变。克：它没有根本的改变。安：没有，它只是加剧了自身的腐败。
23:54	A: No, it's becoming intensified in its corruption.	克：没错，是的。可心智必须看到自己的内容，
23:58	K: That's right. That's right. But the mind must see its content, must be totally aware of it, not fragments of it. How is that to be done? You follow, sir? A: Yes, I do.	它必须完全地觉察到它，而不只是觉察到它的碎片。那么这要如何去实现呢？你明白吗，先生？安：是的，我明白。克：因为这与死亡有着非常重要的关联。
24:19	K: Because that's very important in relation to death. Because the content of my consciousness is consciousness. That consciousness is me, my ego, my saying, 'I and you, we and they', whether they the communists, they the Catholics, they the Protestants, or they the Hindus - they and we. So, it is very important to find out whether it is possible to empty consciousness of its content. Which means the dying to the me. You follow?	因为我意识的内容就是意识。那个意识就是我，我的自我，我在说， “我和你，我们和他们”，不管他们是共产主义者、天主教徒，新教徒，还是印度教徒 ——都是他们和我们。所以去发现我们有没有可能清空意识的内容，这非常重要。那就意味着对那个“我”死去。你明白吗？安：是的，我明白。克：因为意识的内容就是我。
25:14	A: Yes, I do. K: Because that is the me.	安：这就是恐惧的起源。克：这就是恐惧的起源。安：确实如此。直觉告诉我，如果我
25:19	A: This is where the terror starts.	对这个意识的内容死去，那么“我”也会被抹去。克：是的。
25:21	K: That's where the terror starts.	那个努力工作的“我”，那个过着正直生活，或者不正直生活的“我”，
25:22	A: Precisely. There's the intuition that, if I die to the content of this consciousness, that I am wiped out.	那个做了如此多好事或者坏事的“我”，
25:29	K: Yes. I, who have worked, who have lived a righteous life - or unrighteous life - who have done so much, mischief or good, I have struggled to better myself, I've been so kind, so gentle, so angry, so bitter - you follow? - and when you say empty your consciousness, it means you are asking me to die to all that! So, you are touching at the very root of fear.	我努力让自己变得更好，我一直是如此仁慈与友善，或者如此愤怒和刻薄 ——你明白吗？—— 而当你说清空你的意识时，这就意味着你要让我对那一切死去！所以，这已经触碰到了恐惧最深的根源。安：是的，正是如此。克：那个恐惧的根源就是害怕无法存在。
26:10	A: Yes, exactly. K: At the root of terror of not being. Oh yes, that's it, sir. And I want to immortalise that me. I do it through books, writing a book, and say, famous book. Or I paint. Or through paint, through works, through good acts, through building this or that, I immortalise myself.	哦，是的，正是如此，先生。于是我想要把那个“我”变得不朽。我通过书籍来让自己变得不朽，我写了一本书，然后说这是一本巨著。或者我去绘画。通过画画、工作、善行，通过建造这个或者那个，我试图让自己不朽。安：这在家庭中造成了非常恶劣的影响，因为我们必须生一个儿子以此来
26:55	A: This has very pernicious effects within the family, because we must have a son in order to...	克：……传承香火。安：……让我们的名字不朽。克：因此家庭就变成了一种危险。安：确实如此。
27:03	K: ...carry on. A: ...immortalise the name in time.	克：所以，看一下我们做的事情吧，先生：古埃及人努力让自己变得不朽，
27:06	K: Therefore the family becomes a danger. A: Exactly.	通过思考和传承让自己的生命不朽。安：让自己永存。克：永存。
27:15	K: So, look what we have done, sir: the ancient Egyptians immortalised themselves, made their life immortal by thinking, carrying on.	然后盗墓贼来了，他们的计划就被彻底打破了。
27:27	A: Perpetuity. K: Perpetuity. And the robbers come and tear it all to pieces. Tutankhamen is merely a mask now, a golden mask with a mummy, and so on. So, man has sought immortality through works, through every way to find that which is immortal, that is, beyond mortality. Right?	图坦卡蒙（埃及法老名）现在对人们来说只是一个面具，一个木乃伊身上的黄金面具，等等。所以，人类一直在奋力寻求不朽，通过各种方式去寻找那个不朽的事物，那个超越死亡的事物。不是吗？安：有一件不寻常的事情是 “不朽”这个词是一种否定性的结构。克：是的，“不-死”。
28:05	A: It's a very remarkable thing that the word 'immortal' is a negative. K: Yes, not mortal.	安：是的，它并没有明说自己是什么。
28:10	A: Yes, it's not saying what it is.	克：而这就是我们要来发现的东西。安：好的。克：你明白吗，先生？这是一件严肃之极的事情。
28:17	K: We are going to find out what it is. A: Good.	它并不是讨论中供双方娱乐的谈资，而是一件极其重要的事情！
28:21	K: You follow, sir? This is a very, very serious thing. It isn't a plaything between two people enjoying a discussion, It is tremendously important!	安：是的，但刚才我笑的是它所具有的讽刺意味。
28:31	A: Yes, I was laughing at the irony of it. That, inherent in the structure of that word, there is a warning, and we just go right through the red light.	也就是，“不朽”这个词本身的结构中就包含了一种警示，而我们却无视警告直接闯了红灯。克：没错。安：是的，请继续。克：所以，什么才是不朽呢？
28:44	K: Right. A: Yes, please do go on.	不是那些书籍。安：哦，当然不是。克：不是我的画作；
28:47	K: So, what is immortality? Not the book. A: Oh no.	不是登上月球然后在那里插上一面白痴的旗帜；
28:55	K: Not the painting which I have done, not, going to the moon and putting some idiotic flag up there. Not, living a righteous life, - or not living a righteous life. So, what is immortality? The cathedrals are beautiful, marvellous cathedrals, in stone; an earthquake comes - gone. You carve out of marble a marvellous thing of Michelangelo, an earthquake, fire - destroyed. Some lunatic comes along with a hammer and breaks it up. So, it is in none of those. Right? A: Right.	不是去过一种正直的生活， ——或者不去过一种正直的生活。那么什么才是不朽呢？教堂很美，那些用石头建成的精美绝伦的大教堂，然后来一次地震 ——就全都没了。你用一块大理石雕刻出了一件令人惊叹的米开朗基罗作品，然后一次地震或者火灾就把它毁掉了。或者某个疯子会带着锤子过来把它打碎。所以这些东西都不是不朽的。对吗？安：对。克：因为它是可以被摧毁的。
29:47	K: Because that is capable of being destroyed. Every statue becomes a dead thing, every poem, every painting. So, then one asks, what is immortality? It's not in the building - just see it, sir - It's not in the cathedral. It's not in the Saviour, which you have invented, which thought has invented. Not in the gods that man has created out of his own image. Then what is immortality? Because that is related to consciousness and to death. Unless I find that out, death is a terror.	每一个雕像都会消亡，每一首诗歌，每一幅绘画也是如此。所以我们就要问了，什么才是不朽呢？不朽并不存在于建筑之中 ——来看看这一点，先生—— 它并不存在于教堂中。也不存在于你发明的，思想所发明出来的救世主中。更不存在于人类按照自身意象所创造出来的神明中。那么什么是不朽呢？因为这一点与意识和死亡密切关联。所以除非我能够了悟它，否则死亡就是一件可怕的事情。安：当然了，毫无疑问。
30:41	A: Of course, of course.	克：我努力让自己变得不朽，通过这些思想来谋求不朽：
30:45	K: I have tried to immortalise myself, become immortal by the thought that there is a Brahman, there is a God, there is eternality, there is a nameless one, and I will do everything to approach him. Therefore I'll lead a righteous life. Therefore I will pray, I will beg, I will obey. I will live a life of poverty, chastity, and so on, so on, so on, in order to have that immortal reality with me. But I know all that is born of thought. Right, sir? A: Yes, as soon as... K: Wait a minute, sir, see what happens. So I see thought and its products are the children of barren women.	存在着梵天，存在着神明，存在着某种永恒或者不可名状的事物，而我要想方设法地去靠近他。因此我要过一种正直的生活。所以我去祈祷，去乞求，去遵从。我要过一种贫穷和贞洁的生活等等等等，以此来获得那种不朽的真相。但是我知道这些都是来自于思想的。不是吗，先生？安：是的，一旦我…… 克：等一下，先生，看看这里发生了什么。所以我发现思想及其产物就如同不孕妇女的孩子一样虚幻。安：正是如此。
31:42	A: Precisely.	克：看看接下来发生了什么。那么到底什么才是不朽呢？
31:45	K: See what's taken place. Then what is immortality? The beauty in the church - not I built the church - the beauty in the cathedral, the beauty in the poem, the beauty in the sculpture. The beauty, not the object of beauty. I wonder...	教堂里的美 ——不是我建造了教堂—— 而是那种存在于大教堂、诗歌和雕塑中的美。是那种美，而不是美的客体。我不知道你…… 安：那种美本身。克：那种美本身。它就是不朽的。
32:16	A: The beauty itself. K: Itself. That is immortal. And I cannot grasp that, the mind cannot grasp it, because beauty is not in the field of consciousness.	而我是无法去捕捉到它的，心智是无法捕捉它的，因为美并不存在于意识的领域内。安：你看，你所说的东西还是那么具有颠覆性。我们认为当某样
32:39	A: You see, what you have said, again, stands it all on its head. We think when something dies that we have cherished, that is beautiful, that beauty dies, in some sense, with that which has passed away. K: Passed away, yes.	我们所珍爱的美丽事物死亡以后，从某种意义上来说，美也伴随着那个事物的离去而消亡了。克：随它逝去了，是的。安：事实上，那是一种美被剥夺了的感觉，
33:00	A: Actually it's the feeling of being bereft of that beauty that I regarded as my privilege to have personal access to. The belief that that has perished, not simply being lost, because what is lost is by its nature predisposed to be found. But to perish is to be wiped out utterly, isn't it? And so the belief is deep. K: Oh, very, very.	而那种美我一直把它看作是我个人独有的特权。我相信它已经灭亡了，而不只是失去了它，因为失去本身预示着可以再找到。但是灭亡则是彻底抹去了，不是吗？而这个信念是如此深刻。克：噢，是的，很深。安：一种极深的关于灭亡的信念。
33:36	A: Extremely deep with respect to what we mean by perish. In fact, the word isn't used very often, it's frightening, it's a very frightening word. We always talk about losing things, hardly ever do we say something perishes. Now back to what I mentioned about standing it on its head. The image came to my mind as a metaphor - I hope not one of those images we've been talking about. That beauty, rather than being imprisoned and therefore taken down to the utter depths of nullity, when the thing perishes, has simply let it go. In some sense beauty has let this expression go. That is upside down from what is usually thought.	事实上，这个词人们用的并不多，因为它令人感到害怕，这是一个很可怕的词。我们会经常谈论失去一些东西，但是几乎很少说某样东西灭亡了。回到我之前提到过的颠覆性。现在我脑子里出现了一个画面，当然这是一个比喻， ——我希望这个我们以前没有讨论过。也就是那种美，它不是被囚禁起来然后在事物灭亡的时候被带入虚无的无尽深渊，而是它只是让那种美离去了。从某种意义上来说，是美让这种美的表达离开了。然而这和人们通常的想法却恰恰相反。克：我知道，我知道。
34:33	K: I know, I know.	安：而它也许就是在美显现的那一刻让它离去的。
34:35	A: And it has probably let it go precisely on time.	克：没错。安：这就是不可思议之处。是的，是的。克：所以，我们已经说过，不朽
34:41	K: That's right. A: That's what's so marvellous. Yes, yes.	是在时间的领域之内的。
34:45	K: So, immortality, we have said, is within the field of time.	安：在那一个领域内。克：对吗？安：是的。克：时间的领域。安：是的。
34:55	A: In the one field.	克：而死亡同样也在时间的领域内。因为通过思想我已经创造出了
34:58	K: Right? A: Yes.	那些时间中的事物。
34:59	K: The field of time. A: Yes.	然而死亡也是那种超越时间状态的终点或者起点。
35:01	K: And death is also then in the field of time. Because I have created, through thought, the things of time. And death is the ending or the beginning of a state which is timeless. Of that I am frightened. So, I want everything preserved in the field of time. You follow, sir? A: Yes, yes, we think it could...	而这正是我所害怕的。因此我想要每一样事物都留存在时间的领域里。你明白吗，先生？安：是的，是的，我们认为它可以…… 克：而我们所谓的不朽就是这些东西
35:42	K: And that is what we call immortal - the statue, the poem, the church, the cathedral. And I see also all that is corruptible, destroyed by one accident, or by an earthquake - everything is gone. So, immortality is not within the field of time. And time is thought - of course.	——雕像、诗歌、教堂、大教堂。而我也看到了这些东西都是会腐朽消亡的，它们会被一次事故，或者一次地震而摧毁 ——然后一切都没了。所以不朽不在时间的领域中。而时间就是思想 ——这是毫无疑问的。安：毫无疑问是这样的。克：这显而易见。所以任何思想所创造的东西
36:22	A: Of course, yes, that follows. K: Of course. So, anything that thought creates must be within the field of time. And yet thought is trying to seek immortality, which is, immortality of itself - and the things it has created. You... A: Yes.	都必定落入了时间的领域中。然而思想却试图去寻找不朽，那种它自身的不朽 ——以及它所创造出来东西的不朽。你是否…… 安：是的，我明白了。克：所以接下来的问题就是，心智是否能够看到这一切，
36:51	K: So, then the problem is, can the mind see all this, - see it! Not imagine that it is seeing it.	——看到它！而不是幻想自己已经看到了它。安：是的，真正地看到这一点。克：真正地看到这一点。
37:07	A: No, actually see it. K: Actually see it.	安：是的，之前在你开始说到时间领域的时候，我曾经有过一个评论，
37:13	A: Yes, the remark I made before, when you began saying the field of time and I said the one field, I didn't mean that the field of time, as you've described it, is the one field, but that we could be so appallingly...	我当时说“那一个领域”，在你描述时间领域的时候，我的意思并不是说时间领域就是那一个领域，而是说我们可能如此可怕地克：……盲目。安：……误解和盲目
37:28	K: ...blind. A: ...mistaken and blind...	克：一无所知。安：……没有认识到时间的领域只是另一个碎片并且
37:30	K: Ignorant.	克：没错。安：……并且是唯一的领域。而真正让我震惊的是：
37:31	A: ...that the field of time is another fragment and...	思想的滥用滋生出了骇人听闻的贪婪。
37:36	K: That's right. A: ...it's the only field. And what really struck me was: this misuse of thought generates the most appalling avarice.	克：是的，先生。
37:51	K: Yes, sir.	安：我为自己建造了一道石头围墙。是的，请讲。
37:57	A: I'm walling myself up in stone. Yes, please.	克：所以，
38:03	K: So, the mind, perceiving all this, if it is alert, if it has been watchful all the time that we have been discussing, must inevitably see the whole content exposed, without any effort. It's like reading a map. You spread it out and look. But if you want to go in a direction, then you don't look at the whole map. Then you say, I want to go from here to there, the direction is there, so many miles, and... you don't look at the rest. What we are asking is, no direction but just look. Look at the content of your consciousness, without direction, without choice. Be aware of it without any exertion of discernment. Be choicelessly aware of this extraordinary map. Then that choiceless awareness gives you that tremendous energy to go beyond it. But you need energy to go beyond it.	洞察到所有这一切的心智，如果它足够警觉，如果它一直对我们所讨论的东西关心留意的话，那么它就必然能看到意识的全部内容暴露了出来，却无需任何努力。这就像是看地图。你会把地图展开然后浏览。但是如果你想要去某个地方，那么你就不会去看整张地图了。那时你会说，我想要从这里达到那里，方向已经在那里了，有很多里路，然后……你就不去看地图上其余的部分了。然而我们所要求的则是：没有方向，只是去看。观察你自己意识的内容，没有方向，没有选择。去觉知它而没有任何的辨别。毫无选择地去觉察这幅特别的地图。此时这种无选择的觉察就会给予你巨大的能量使你得以超越整幅地图。但是要超越它，你需要有能量。安：这使我想起了我们不久前
39:39	A: This leads me to the notion of reincarnation that we began to touch on a little earlier: I see the demonic root in that. K: Yes, sir. You see, reincarnate next life. Nobody says, incarnate now. A: Yes, exactly.	开始谈到一点的轮回转世的概念：我在这里看到了它可怕的根源所在。克：是的，先生。你看，我要在下辈子转世重生。但没有人会说，我现在就要重生。安：是的，正是如此。克：你明白吗，先生？安：是的，我明白，我明白。克：然而你只能在此刻重生，当你对那些意识内容死去时。
40:04	K: You follow, sir? A: Yes, I do, I do.	如果你能对那些内容死去，那么你就能够彻底地重生、新生。
40:06	K: You can only incarnate now, when you die to the content. You can be reborn, regenerated totally, if you die to the content.	安：对，对，是的。然而这个轮回转世的法则
40:19	A: Yes. Yes. Yes. And there is a terrible truth on the dark side, the demonic side to this doctrine of reincarnation, because, if that content of consciousness is not emptied out, then it must prevail! K: So what happens?	也包含着一个可怕的事实，那是它黑暗和邪恶的一面，那就是如果意识的内容没有被清空掉，那么它必然会肆虐起来！克：所以会发生什么呢？安：然后它真的肆虐了起来，就是这样！克：它开始肆虐起来。
40:45	A: Then it really does, yes! K: It prevails. So what happens? I do not know, as a human being, how to empty this thing. I'm not even interested, I'm only frightened.	然后会发生什么呢？作为一个人，我不知道如何才能清空这些事物。我甚至对此不感兴趣。我只是感到害怕。安：我只是怕得要死。克：怕得要死。我保留着某些东西，然后我死了，我被火化或者掩埋。
41:01	A: Only scared to death. K: Scared to death. And I preserve something, and I die, am burned, or buried under ground. The content goes on. As we said, the content of me is your content also, it's not so very different. A: No, no, no.	而那些意识的内容则延续了下去。就如我们所说的，我的意识内容同样也是你的意识内容，它们并没有太大的不同。安：没有不同，没有没有。克：稍微修改了一点，稍微夸大了一点，
41:27	K: Slightly modified, slightly exaggerated, given certain tendencies, which depend on your conditioning of environment, and so on, so on, but it is essentially same consciousness. Unless a human being empties that consciousness, that consciousness goes on like a river, collecting, accumulating - all that's going on. And out of that river comes the expression or the manifestation of the one that is lost. When the mediums, seances, all those say your brother, your uncle, your wife is here, what has happened is they have manifested themselves out of that stream which is the continuous consciousness of struggle, pain, unhappiness, misery - all that. And a man who has observed and has looked at the consciousness, and empties it, he doesn't belong to that stream at all. Then he is living each moment anew, because he is dying each moment. You understand, sir?	根据你所处的环境条件等等而有了一些特殊的倾向，但是本质上来说它们是同一个意识。除非一个人清空了那个意识，否则它还是会像河流一样继续流淌下去，不断收集和积累着 ——所有那些东西都会持续下去。而从这条河流之中就出现了那个已故之人的表达或者显现。当灵媒们，降神者们，所有那些人说你的兄弟，你的叔叔，你的妻子在这里的时候，实际发生的事情是那些已故之人从那股持续不断意识洪流中显现出了自己，那股洪流中包含着挣扎、痛苦、不幸、悲伤——所有这些东西。而一个观察过、一个看到了这种意识并且清空了它的人，他就能彻底脱离这股洪流。那时他就是崭新地活在每一刻中，因为他每一刻都在死去。你明白吗，先生？安：哦，是的，是的，我明白。克：他并没有积累那个需要加以表达的“我”。
43:02	A: Oh yes, I do, yes, I do.	他每一分钟都在死去，活在每一分钟，也死于每一分钟。
43:04	K: There is no accumulation of the me which has to be expressed. He is dying every minute, living every minute, and dying every minute. And therefore in that there is - what shall I say? - there is no content. You follow, sir? A: Yes.	因此在那之中 ——我该怎么说呢？—— 在那之中是没有内容的。你明白吗，先生？安：是的。克：它就像是一股巨大的能量在行动。
43:26	K: It is like a tremendous energy in action.	安：这让我们对我们所谓的 “来世”这个说法
43:30	A: This gives a totally different understanding of what we mean by the phrase 'in the afterlife'. On the one hand, there is this continuity in disordered content of consciousness... K: It is totally disordered.	有了一种完全不同的理解。一方面，这些混乱的意识内容一直延续着克：它是完全混乱的。安：……这些意识内容不会
43:53	A: ...which is not radically affected qualitatively with respect to its nature, simply because somebody has stopped breathing for good. No. It's on its way. K: On its way.	只是因为某人已经永远地停止了呼吸而产生自身本性的质变。不会。意识仍自行其道。克：仍自行其道。安：因此在某人死后，
44:07	A: And therefore the attempt that is often made on the part of persons to contact this stream of consciousness after the death of a person, when made within the same quality of consciousness, attains nothing but a reinforcement...	人们经常去做那种连接这股意识洪流的努力，当他们以同样品质的意识去连接时，那是徒劳无用的，它只会增强…… 克：是的，没错。安：……只会增强他们自己个体的生活。
44:34	K: Yes, that's right. A: ...within their own personal life. And it does a terrible thing to their content of consciousness which has gone on, since it also feeds that some more.	而这同样也对他们一直持续的意识内容造成了恶劣的影响，因为这也进一步喂养了他们的意识。克：没错。安：是的，这点我已经看到了。克：曾经有个人来拜访我，他的妻子去世了。
44:44	K: That's right.	他真的觉得自己很爱她。所以他说，我一定要再次见到我的妻子。
44:46	A: Yes, I do see that.	你能帮助我吗？我对他说，你想要见哪一个妻子？
44:48	K: A person came to see me, and his wife was dead. And he really thought he loved her. So he said, I must see my wife again. Can you help me? I said, which wife do you want to see? The one that cooked? The one that bore the children? The one that gave you sex? The one that quarrelled with you? The one that dominated you, frightened you? He said, I don't want to meet any of those. I want to meet the good of her. You follow, sir? A: Yes, yes, yes, yes.	那个为你做饭的妻子吗？那个为你生孩子的妻子吗？那个给你性满足的妻子吗？那个和你争吵的妻子吗？那个支配你，让你害怕的妻子吗？他说，这些都不是我想要见的。我想见到的是她身上美好的部分。你明白吗，先生？安：是的，是的，我明白。克：他要的是他建立起来的妻子美好的形象。
45:37	K: The image of the good he has built out of her. None of the ugly things, or what he considered ugly things, but the idea of the good which he had culled out of her, and that is the image he wants to meet. I said, don't be infantile. You are so utterly immature. When you have slept with her, and got angry with her, all that you don't want, you want just the image which you have about her goodness. I said... And you know, sir, he began to cry, really cry for the first time. He said afterwards, I have cried when she died, but the tears were of self-pity, my loneliness, my sense of - you follow? - lack of things. Now I have cried because I see what I have done. You understand, sir?	不是妻子身上那些丑陋的地方或者他认为丑陋的地方，而是那些他从妻子身上拣选出来的优点，而这才是他想要见到的形象。所以我说，别幼稚了。你是如此不成熟。当你和她睡觉的时候，当你生她气的时候，这些情景你都不想要，你只想要你心中关于她的美好形象。我说……你知道，先生，然后他开始哭泣，第一次真正地哭泣。稍后他说道：她去世时我曾经哭过，但那些眼泪只是出于自怜，可怜自己的孤独，那种 ——你明白吗？—— 那种失去了什么的感觉。而现在我哭是因为我看到了自己的所作所为。你明白了吗，先生？安：是的，我明白。
46:43	A: Yes, I do.	克：所以，要了解死亡就必须没有恐惧。
46:50	K: So, to understand death there must be no fear. The fear exists and the terror of it exists only when the content is not understood. And the content is the 'me'. And the 'me' is the chair - you follow, sir?	只有当我们没有了解那些内容时，恐惧以及对它的恐慌才会存在。而那些内容就是“我”。 “我”就是那把椅子 ——你明白吗，先生？安：哦，是的。克：那些我执着的东西。
47:19	A: Oh yes. K: The thing I am attached to. It is so stupid! And I am frightened of that, the bank account, the family - you follow?	这是多么愚蠢啊！而我同时为它们担惊受怕，我的银行存款，我的家庭 ——你明白吗？安：哦，是的，是的，我明白。克：所以除非你真的在这件事情上极其认真，
47:34	A: Oh yes, yes, I do.	否则你就无法此刻
47:36	K: So unless one is really, deeply serious in this matter, you can't incarnate now in the deep sense of that word, and therefore immortality is in the book, in the statue, in the cathedral, in the things I have put together, the things I have put together by thought. That's all the field of time. A: Right. It just occurred to me what a terrible thing we have been doing so often over and over again to Plato by this perennial attempt at academic analysis of the text, when he plainly said that the business of the philosopher, by which he didn't mean the analyser in this mad way that we have been observing it goes on, the business of the philosopher, namely the one who is concerned with a radical change and rebirth, which he associates with wisdom, the business of the philosopher is to practise dying, to practise dying. K: Not practice.	就在真正的意义上重生，于是不朽就只存在于书本之中，雕像之中，教堂之中，存在于那些我拼凑起来的，用思想拼凑起来的东西之中。这些全都在时间的领域内。安：没错。我忽然想到了一直以来我们对柏拉图一次又一次地做了一件多么糟糕的事情，我们长年累月努力地对他的文字进行学术分析，然而他只是简单地说出了哲学家的任务—— 这里他所说的哲学家并不是我们现在看到的那些疯狂的分析家 ——这里的哲学家是指那个关心根本改变和重生的人，他把这样的人称为智慧之人，而哲学家的任务就是练习死亡，去练习死亡。克：不是练习。安：当然我想他的意思并不是那种例行公事和重复性的练习：
49:00	A: I don't think he meant routine, repetition: die, die, die, die, die. I think he puts it with an 'ing', because he doesn't want to fall out of act. I know I use this phrase all the time, but it came to me early in our conversations, and it seems to say, for me, what I want to say. I have to say I learned it from you, - though I don't want to put the words in your mouth. But it's possible to fall out of act into the terror and the demonic stream of time, but when one is in act, the whole thing is an ongoing move.	一次又一次地死去，死去，死去。我认为他是用正在进行时来表达的，因为他并不想脱离行动。我知道我总是在用 “正在进行”这种表达，但是在我们对话的前期我就已经在想这个了，就我而言，这个说法似乎说出了我想表达的东西。我不得不说我是从你那里学到这点的， ——虽然我并不想把这些说法强加于你。但是我们有可能脱离行动并堕入时间那恐怖和可怕的洪流之中，然而当一个人处于行动中，那么整个事情就是一种不断前进的运动了。克：所以，先生，时间在这里有了一个停顿。安：确实如此。克：看看这其中的美，先生。
49:50	K: So, sir, time has a stop. A: Precisely.	这种美才是不朽的，而不是思想创造的那些东西。
49:54	K: See the beauty of it, sir. And it is that beauty which is immortal, not the things which thought has created.	安：对。克：所以，生活就是死亡。
50:04	A: Right.	安：对。克：而爱本质上就是对那个“我”死去。
50:07	K: So, living is dying.	而不是思想所说的那些东西：这就是爱，
50:12	A: Right.	爱就是性，爱就是快感。你明白吗？所有那些。安：是的。克：而是：对时间死去才是爱。
50:13	K: And love is essentially dying to the me. Not the things which thought has said: this is love, love-sex, love-pleasure. You follow? All that.	所以，生活、爱和死亡是合一的，
50:31	A: Yes.	它们之间没有分裂，没有分隔，没有分离，它没有在时间的领域内，
50:32	K: It is: the dying to time is love. So, living, love, and death are one thing, not divisive, not separated, not divorced, not in the field of time, but it is completely a living, moving thing, indivisible. And that is immortal. A: Yes.	而完全是一个鲜活的、运动着的和不可分割的事物。而那就是不朽。安：是的。克：所以，现在我们大多数人所受的教育都是错误的。
51:07	K: So, Now, most of us are educated wrongly.	安：说的太对了！克：从小开始，我们从未被教育要变得认真。
51:16	A: How true that is!	从小开始，我们就被教导着去培养思想，
51:19	K: From childhood we are never taught to be serious. From childhood we are taught the cultivation of thought, cultivation of thought and the expression and the marvels of thought. All our philosophies, books, everything is based on that. And when you say, die to all that, you really awaken the terror of not knowing. This, gives me security in knowing.	去培育智力，培育思想的表达和它的神奇之处。我们所有的哲学、书籍，一切都是建立在这之上的。而当你说对这一切死去的时候，你其实就唤醒了害怕一无所知的恐惧。而培育思想则带给了我知识中的安全感。安：是的。克：于是知识就变成了我安全的领地。
52:10	A: Yes.	而你要我放弃所有这些，对所有这些死去。所以我说你疯了。
52:11	K: Then knowledge becomes the field of my safety. And you ask me, give all that up, die to all that. And I say you are insane. How can I die to that, that's part of me.	我怎么能抛开那些呢，那是我的一部分。安：有一句非常非常优美的禅语似乎说的就是这个
52:31	A: There's a very, very beautiful Zen saying that seems to relate to this, when it's understood correctly. It speaks of jumping off the cliff with hands free. Jumping off the cliff with hands free. The hands...	——如果我理解正确的话。它说：放开你的双手跳下悬崖。双手放空，跳下悬崖。放开你那双克：……之前紧握着的手。安：……那双紧握的手，总是死死抓住过去
52:53	K: ...that hold. A: ...that hold, always grasping the past or reaching out towards the future, and we never get off that horizontal track. It's like a Lionel train, it forever goes on.	或者伸向未来的手。我们从未脱离过这条水平的轨道。它就像莱昂内尔的火车，永不停靠。克：所以接下来的问题就出现了：
53:08	K: So, then it comes to the question: what is living in the present? Death is the future. And I've lived for 40 years, all the accumulated memories. What is the present? The present is the death of the content. You follow, sir? A: Yes.	什么才是活在此刻？死亡是属于未来的。并且我已经活了40年了，带着积累起来的所有记忆。那么什么才是现在呢？现在就是意识内容的消亡。你明白吗，先生？安：是的。克：我不知道，但这其中有着巨大的美。
53:37	K: I don't know, it has got immense beauty in that. Because that means no conflict - you follow, sir? - no tomorrow. If you tell a man who loves, who is going to enjoy that man or woman tomorrow, when you say there is no tomorrow, he says, what are you talking about?	因为那意味着冲突消失了 ——你明白吗，先生？—— 不再有明天。如果你告诉一个恋爱中的人，告诉那个打算和某个男人或女人享受明天的人说：其实并不存在明天，那么他会说，你在瞎说什么呢？安：是的，我明白。有时候你也会说，你所说的某些东西听起来会有点荒谬。克：的确。安：的确，和我们
54:02	A: Yes, I know. Sometimes you will say, when you have said something, it sounds absurd.	一直以来所接受的崇尚分析的教育相比，那确实听上去很荒谬。克：因此，先生，我们能否教育孩子和学生们
54:07	K: Of course.	去截然不同地生活？
54:08	A: And, of course, in relation to the way we have been taught to do analysis, it sounds absurd.	带着了解去生活，带着
54:14	K: Therefore, sir, can we educate children, students, to live totally differently? Live and understand, and act with this sense of understanding the content and the beauty of it all.	对意识内容的了解和它所有的美去行动。安：如果我正确地理解了你的意思，我想这个问题的答案只有一个：是的，我们可以。
54:41	A: If I've understood you correctly, there's only one answer to that question: yes, yes. I think the word here wouldn't be 'absurd', it would be something like 'wild'. Yes, I see now what you mean about death and birth as non-temporally related, in terms of the question that we raised about their relation earlier, because when you say there is this incarnation...	我认为这里这个词语不应该是“荒谬”，而应该更类似于“自由狂放”。是的，现在我终于明白了你所说的关于死亡和出生之间非时间性的关联 ——在参照了我们之前所问的关于它们之间关系的问题以后，因为当你说存在着这种转世重生克：……现在就重生。安：……现在就重生，就在此刻…… 克：是的，先生。安：……那么…… 克：不，如果你看到了它的美，先生，
55:21	K: ...now. A: ...now, upon the instant... K: Yes, sir.	那件事情就会发生。安：此时它就发生了。克：它并非是精神活动的产物。安：没错。
55:24	A: ...then...	克：也不是冥思苦想的结果。而是真正洞察到了“现状”。
55:25	K: No, if you see the beauty of it, sir, the thing takes place. A: Then it's happened.	安：而让人惊讶的是它从根本上是同样的能量。
55:31	K: It is not the result of mentation. A: No.	克：是的，先生。安：它并没有从别处带来什么，那是一种被称为“神”的截然不同的能量。
55:34	K: Not the result of immense thinking, thinking, thinking. It is actual perception of 'what is'.	克：不是，那是一种外在的媒介所带来的能量。安：不是。克：它就是原来被浪费、
55:44	A: And the amazement that it is the same energy at root.	被消耗掉的能量，只是现在不再被耗费了。安：正是如此。克：因此它
55:50	K: Yes, sir.	安：的确如此。这带来了一种彻底的
55:51	A: It doesn't take something over here that's a different energy called God.	现在我开始使用 “绝对”和“彻底”这类词语了，你知道的，在研究院里，
55:55	K: No, that's an outside agency brought in here.	我们被建议要慎用这些词。克：我明白。
55:58	A: No. K: It is the same wasted energy, dissipated energy, which is no longer dissipated.	安：但是我很抱歉。事实上它是彻底的。
56:06	A: Exactly. K: Therefore it is...	是彻底的。克：是的。安：有了一种彻底的转变。
56:08	A: Exactly. This throws a totally... I'm beginning now to use the words 'absolutely' and 'totally', which in the Academy, you know, we're advised to be very careful of.	而每一个个体的转变都是彻底的。
56:24	K: I know.	克：这种转变并不在时间和知识的领域之内。安：它没有落入于时间和知识的领域。克：现在你能够看到那种联系了。
56:27	A: But I'm sorry about all that. The fact remains that it is total. It is total. K: Yes.	安：是的，并且当人们看到了你这句话的余下部分：
56:36	A: There is a total change. And the transformation of each individual is a total one.	“这是每一个人的责任”的时候，那么那种深刻的认真
56:44	K: It is not within the field of time and knowledge.	就产生了。
56:47	A: Is not within the field of time and knowledge.	而我也许可以在这里再加上一点，因为在我看来这是一起出现的：
56:49	K: You see now the relation.	它并不是相对于其他人而言的某一个人去做什么的责任。它是伴随着我
56:50	A: Yes, and then the profound seriousness of it that attends when one sees the rest of that sentence of yours: it is the responsibility of each. And if I may add just one other thing here, because it seems to me that it is coming together: that it isn't the responsibility of one over against the other to do something. It is to come with and to, as the other is coming to and with, and we begin together...	和他人一起而来的，然后我们开始一起克：是的，先生。一起分享。安：……一起去观察。克：一起学习。安：只是安静地去观察。
57:30	K: Yes, sir. Share together. A: ...to have a look.	而就在这种未经计划的活动中，这次对话最神奇的事情之一就发生了
57:33	K: Learn together. A: Just quietly having a look. And in that activity, which is not planned, one of the amazing things about this conversation is that it - to use your beautiful word - flowers.	——套用你美丽的用词就是—— 绽放。克：它绽放了，是的。安：但它并不需要我们强行去变得没有计划。
57:50	K: It flowers, yes. A: It doesn't require an imposition without of a contrivance.	克：不需要。安：也不需要经营。克：经营，说的对。安：它以某种方式得以自我成长。
57:59	K: No.	正是这种自我成长关联着
58:00	A: Of a management. K: Management, quite.	你在探讨意识时所谈到的那件事情。我指了指头，意思并不是说意识就在这里，不是的，
58:03	A: Somehow it grows out of itself. It's this thing of growing out of itself that relates to this thing that you've been talking about in consciousness. By pointing to the head I don't mean consciousness is up here, no, but it's the 'out of itself', it's like that water that turns in on itself.	而是“它从自身中成长出来”，这就像是河水流动着融入自身一样。克：河水依然是河水。安：它仍旧是河水。确实如此。这次对话极好地揭示出了
58:27	K: But it remains water. A: It remains water. Exactly. This has been a wonderful revelation, the whole thing about death, living and love. I do hope, when we have our next conversation, that we could begin to pursue this in relation to education even further.	死亡、生活和爱这整件事情。我非常希望在下次谈话中，我们可以开始把这些问题跟教育联系起来做进一步的探讨。克：进一步的探讨，好的，先生。
58:53	K: Further, yes, sir.