克里希那穆提 - 宗教、权威与教育—

Krishnamurti Subtitles

SD74CA15 - 宗教、权威与教育——第一部分
与艾伦·W·安德森博士的第十五次对话
美国，加利福尼亚，圣地亚哥
1974年2月27日

0:38	Krishnamurti in dialogue with Dr. Allan W. Anderson	克里希那穆提与艾伦·W·安德森博士的对话
0:43	J. Krishnamurti was born in South India and educated in England. For the past 40 years he has been speaking in the United States, Europe, India, Australia, and other parts of the world. From the outset of his life's work he repudiated all connections with organised religions and ideologies and said that his only concern was to set man absolutely unconditionally free. He is the author of many books, among them The Awakening of Intelligence, The Urgency of Change, Freedom From the Known, and The Flight of the Eagle. This is one of a series of dialogues between Krishnamurti and Dr. Allan W. Anderson, who is professor of religious studies at San Diego State University where he teaches Indian and Chinese scriptures and the oracular tradition. Dr. Anderson, a published poet, received his degree from Columbia University and the Union Theological Seminary. He has been honoured with the distinguished Teaching Award from the California State Universities.	J·克里希那穆提出生于南印度，在英国接受教育。在过去的40年里，他的演讲遍布美国、欧洲、印度、澳大利亚以及世界各地。从他开始毕生工作的那一刻起，他就断绝了与有组织的宗教和意识形态的所有关系，并声明他唯一关心的是使人类获得绝对的、无条件的自由。他出版了多部著作，其中包括《智慧的觉醒》、《转变的紧迫性》、《从已知中解脱》以及《鹰的翱翔》。这是克里希那穆提和艾伦·W·安德森博士的系列对话之一。安德森博士是宗教研究学的教授，就职于圣地亚哥州立大学，他从事印度语、汉语经典以及神谕传统的教学。安德森博士，一位出版过诗集的诗人，获得了哥伦比亚大学以及纽约协和神学院的学位。他还被加利福尼亚州立大学授予了杰出教学奖。
1:51	A: Mr. Krishnamurti, we were talking last time together about death in the context of living and love. And just as we came to the close of what we were discussing, we thought it would be good to pursue a further enquiry into education, what really goes on between teacher and student when they look together, and what are the traps that immediately appear and shock. You mentioned the terror of death, not simply externally, but internally in relation to thought. And perhaps it would be a splendid thing if we just continued that and went deeper into it.	安：克里希那穆提先生，我们上次一起在生活和爱的背景下探讨了死亡。而就在我们之前的探讨进入尾声的时候，我们认为应该就教育这个主题作更进一步的探讨：当老师和学生一起探索时，他们之间实际上发生的是什么，以及立刻显现出来并带来冲击的陷阱是什么。你提到了对死亡的恐惧，不只是外在对死亡的恐惧，还有内在和思想有关的恐惧。如果我们能继续这个问题，并且深入探讨它，也许会是一件了不起的事情。
3:05	K: Sir, I would like to ask, why we are educated at all. What is the meaning of this education that people receive? Apparently they don't understand a thing of life, they don't understand fear, pleasure, the whole thing that we have discussed, and the ultimate fear of death, and the terror of not being. Is it that we have become so utterly materialistic that we are only concerned with good jobs, money, pleasure and superficial amusements, entertainments, whether they be religious or football. Is it that our whole nature and structure has become so utterly meaningless? And when we are educated to that to suddenly face something real is terrifying. As we were saying yesterday, we are not educated to look at ourselves, we are not educated to understand the whole business of living, we are not educated to look and see what happens if we face death. So I was wondering, as we came along this morning, religion - which we were going to discuss anyhow - has become merely not only a divisive process, but also utterly meaningless. Maybe 2,000 years as Christianity, or 3,000, 5,000 as Hinduism, Buddhism, and so on, it has lost its substance! And we never enquire into what is religion, what is education, what is living, what is dying, the whole business of it. We never ask, what is it all about! And when we do ask, we say, well, life has very little meaning. And it has very little meaning as we live, and so we escape into all kinds of fantastic, romantic nonsense, which has no reason, which we can't discuss, or logically enquire, but it is mere escape from this utter emptiness of the life that one leads. I don't know if you saw the other day a group of people adoring a human being, and doing the most fantastic things, and that's what they call religion, that's what they call God. They seem to have lost all reason. Reason apparently has no meaning any more, either.	克：先生，我想问，我们究竟为什么要受教育。人们所接受的这种教育有什么意义呢？很显然他们并不了解生活这件事，他们并不了解恐惧、快乐，不了解我们探讨过的这整件事情，不了解对死亡的终极恐惧，以及对不存在的恐惧。是不是因为我们都已经变得如此彻底地唯物主义，以致于我们都只关心好工作、金钱、快乐以及肤浅的消遣、娱乐，无论它们是宗教的还是足球的娱乐。是否我们的整个本质和结构都已经变得如此彻底地毫无意义了呢？而当我们被教育成了那个样子，突然面对真实的事物就会让人觉得恐怖。就如我们昨天说的，我们没有被教育去观察我们自己，我们没有被教育去了解生活这整件事，我们没有被教育去观察和看清楚如果我们直面死亡会发生什么。今天早上我们来这里的时候，我就想知道，宗教——我们无论如何都会讨论到这个问题—— 是否已经不仅仅变成了一种导致分裂的过程，而且也变得彻底地毫无意义了。存在了两千年的基督教，或者三千年、五千年的的印度教和佛教等，也许都已经失去了它们的实质！而我们却从来没有探究过什么是宗教、什么是教育、什么是生活、什么是死亡，以及有关它们的一切。我们从来没有问过，它们到底是什么！而当我们确实提出了这些问题时，我们就说，哦，生活没什么意义。我们活得没什么意义，于是我们逃避到各种幻想的、浪漫的荒唐事里去，那些事情毫无理性，我们无法讨论它，无法有逻辑地探询它，可那些做法只是在逃避自己所过的生活中这种完全的空虚。我不知道你那天是否看到了一群人在崇拜着某个人，做着最为荒诞的事情，而那就是他们所谓的宗教，那就是他们所谓的上帝。他们似乎已经失去了所有的理性。显然理性也不再有任何意义了。
7:26	A: I did see a documentary that was actually put on by this station, in which the whole meeting operation was being portrayed between the public and this individual, in this young 15-year-old guru, Maharaji. And it was extraordinary. K: Disgusting.	安：我确实看过一个纪录片，就是在这个台播出的，其中描述了公众和马哈拉吉这个人 ——马哈拉吉，一位年仅15岁的古鲁—— 之间的整个集会过程。那个场面真是非同寻常。克：相当令人生厌。
7:56	A: Amazing. In many respects revolting.	安：很让人吃惊。很多方面都让人厌恶。
7:59	K: And that is what they call religion. So, shall we begin with religion and go on?	克：而那就是他们所谓的宗教。那么，我们可以从宗教开始，然后再接着讨论下去吗？
8:14	A: Yes, I think that would be a splendid thing to do.	安：好的，我认为这么做非常好。
8:17	K: All right, sir. Man has always wanted, or tried to find out, something beyond the everyday living, everyday routine, everyday pleasures, every activity of thought, he wanted something much more. I don't know whether you have been to India, if you have been to villages. They put a little stone under a tree, put some marking on it, the next day they have flowers, and for all the people that are there it has become divinity, it has become something religious. That same principle is continued in the cathedrals. Exactly the same thing, Mass and all the rituals in India, all that, it begins there: the desire for human beings to find something more than what thought has put together. Not being able to find it, they romanticise it, they create symbols, or somebody who has got a little bit of this, they worship. And round that they do all kinds of rituals, Indian puja, all that business goes on. And that is called religion. Which has absolutely nothing to do with behaviour, with our daily life. So, seeing all this, both in the West and the East, in the world of Islam, in the world of Buddhism, and all this, it is the same principle going on: worshipping an image which they have created, whether it is the Buddha, or Jesus, or Christ, it is the human mind that has created the image.	克：好的，先生。人们总是希望或者试图发现某种超越我们日常生活的东西，超越我们每天的例行公事、每天的快乐以及每个思想活动的某种东西，他想要更多。我不知道你是否去过印度。你是否去过乡村。他们在树下放一块小石头，并在上面做一个记号，第二天他们就会收到花，对那里所有的人来说，那块石头变成了神物，成了有宗教意义的东西。同样的原理也延伸到了教堂里。完全同样的事情，弥撒，以及印度的所有仪式、所有这一切，就是这样开始的：人类渴望发现某种超越思想所拼凑之物的东西。发现不了，他们就把它浪漫化，造出各种象征，或者有一点点这种意味的人，他们就加以膜拜。围绕这些，他们做各种各样的仪式，印度教的礼拜，所有此类事情在上演着。这就是所谓的宗教，那完全和我们的行为无关，和我们的日常生活无关。所以，看到了所有这些，无论是在西方还是东方、无论是在伊斯兰教世界、还是佛教界，等等所有这些，同样的准则在起作用：膜拜一个他们自己制造出来的形象，无论那个形象是佛陀、耶稣、还是救世主，正是人类的心智建造了这些形象。
10:43	A: Oh yes, certainly.	安：噢，是的，确实如此。
10:45	K: And they worship the image which is their own. In other words, they are worshipping themselves.	克：而他们膜拜自己的形象。换句话说，他们是在崇拜自己。
10:54	A: And the division, the split, grows wider. K: Wider. So when one asks what is religion, obviously, one must negate - in the sense not brutally cut off - understand all this. And so negate all the religions! Negate the religion of India, and the multiple gods and goddesses, and here the religion of Christianity, which is an image which they have created, which is idolatry. They might not like to call it idolatry, but it is. It is an idolatry of the mind. The mind has created the ideal and the mind, through the hand, created the statue, the cross, and so on. So, if one really puts all that aside, the belief, the superstition, the worship of the person, the worship of an idea, and the rituals, and the tradition - all that - if one can do it, and one must do it to find out.	安：而这种分离，这种分裂变得越来越严重。克：越来越严重。所以，当一个人问什么是宗教，显然他就必须否定——这并不是说要残暴地切断——而是了解这一切，从而否定掉所有的宗教！否定印度的宗教，以及众多的神明和女神，在这里则是基督教的信仰，那是他们制造出来的一种形象，是偶像崇拜。也许他们不喜欢称之为偶像崇拜，但事实上就是。那是心智的偶像崇拜。心智建立了理想，并且心智，通过双手，制造出了雕像、十字架等等。所以，如果一个人真的把所有这些都弃置一旁：信仰、迷信、崇拜某人、崇拜某种理念、仪式和传统 ——所有这些——如果他能这么做，他也必须这么做才能发现真相。
12:34	A: Exactly. There is a point of terror here that is many, many faceted, it has so many different mirrors that it holds up to one's own dysfunction. To reach the point where he makes this negation in order to find out, he thinks very often that he must assume something in advance in order to make the negation. K: Oh, of course.	安：确实如此。这其中有一种恐惧，它有很多个侧面，有这么多不同的映射，因而维系了一个人自身功能的紊乱。而为了达到他可以做出否定的这一步，以期发现真相，他常常会认为他必须事先假定某些事情，以便再去否定。克：噢，当然。
13:17	A: And therefore he balks at that, and he won't do it.	安：所以他就在那里畏缩不前，不去做它。
13:21	K: No, because, sir, the brain needs security, otherwise it can't function. A: That's right.	克：对，因为，先生，大脑需要安全，否则它就不能运作。安：对的。
13:28	K: So it finds security in a belief, in an image, in rituals, in the propaganda of 2,000 or 5,000 years. And there, there is a sense of safety, comfort, security, well-being, the image of somebody greater than me, who is looking after me, inwardly he is responsible - all that. So when you are asking a human being to negate all that, he is faced with an immense sense of danger, he becomes panicked!	克：所以它就在某个信仰、某个形象中，从各种仪式中、两千年或五千年来的宣传中找到了安全感。在那里，就有一种保障感、舒适感、安全感、幸福感，有某个比我伟大的人的形象，他关心着我，他内心很有责任感 ——所有这一切。所以，当你让一个人否定所有这一切，他就得面对一种巨大的危机感，他就会恐慌!
14:16	A: Exactly.	安：确实如此。
14:18	K: So to see all that, to see the absurdity of all the present religions, the utter meaninglessness of it all, and to face being totally insecure, and not be frightened.	克：所以要看到这一切，看到如今一切宗教的荒谬之处，看到它所有的一切都是毫无意义的，去面对彻底的不安全，并且不感到害怕。
14:48	A: I sense a trick that one can play on himself right here. Again, I am very grateful to you that we are exploring together this pathology in its various facets. One can begin with the notion that he is going to make this negation in order to attain to something better.	安：我感到这里我们会对自己玩些小花招。再一次，我非常感谢你，感谢我们能够一起从不同的角度来探讨这种病态。一个人可能会从这个想法开始：他要进行这种否定，是为了获得更好的东西。
15:14	K: Oh no, that's not negation.	克：噢，不，那不是否定。
15:15	A: And that's not negation at all.	安：那根本不是否定。
15:17	K: No. Negation is to deny what is false not knowing what is, what is truth. To see the false in the false, and to see the truth in the false, and it is the truth that denies the false. You don't deny the false, but you see what is false, and the very seeing of what is false is the truth. I don't know... A: Yes, of course.	克：不是。否定就是去否定虚假的东西，但并不知道真实的是什么、真理是什么。在虚假中看到虚假，以及在虚假中看到真理，正是真理否定了虚假。你没有否定虚假，而是你看到了什么是虚假，看清何为虚假，这本身就是真理。我不知道...... 安：是的，当然。
15:50	K: And that denies, that sweeps away all this. I don't know if I am making myself clear.	克：那就否定了、清除了所有虚假。我不知道我是否讲清楚了。
15:58	A: Well, I had a very interesting experience in class yesterday. I had given the class an assignment. - I think I mentioned yesterday that I had given an assignment to go and look at the tree. So in fact, I am making a report as to what happened after they came back. One young woman described what happened to her, and she described it in such a way that the class was convinced that there was no blockage of her looking between herself and this tree. She was calmly ecstatic in her report. That sounds like a curious juxtaposition of words, but it seems to me to be correct. But then I asked her a question. And I said, were you thinking of yourself as looking at this tree? And she hesitated - she had already gone through this whole statement, which was very beautifully undertaken - and I come along playing the role of the serpent in the garden and I said, might it not have been the case that, any time when you were doing this, that you thought of yourself looking at the tree? K: As the observer.	安：哦，在昨天的课堂上我有一个非常有趣的经历。我给同学们布置了一个作业。 ——我记得我昨天提起过，我布置了一个作业：走出去，看看树。所以事实上，我是在汇报他们回来后发生的事情。一位年轻的女士描述了她身上发生的事情，而她描述的方式让全班都相信她看的时候，在她和树之间没有任何阻碍。在她的陈述里，她是平静的、喜悦的。这听上去像是一组古怪的并列词，但是在我看来很确切。可是随后我问了她一个问题。我说，当你看树的时候，你还会想到你自己吗？然后她就犹豫了 ——她已经做完了整个陈述，那陈述做得非常漂亮—— 接着我过来扮演了伊甸园里毒蛇的角色，我说，事实难道不可能是这样的吗：无论何时只要你那么做，你都会想到自己是在看着那棵树的，对吗？克：作为观察者。安：然后带着犹豫，
17:36	A: And with this hesitation, she began to fall more and more out of her own act. We had a look at that, she and I and the class, we all had a look at what she was doing. Finally she turned around and said, the reason that I stopped was not because of what went on between me and the tree - I am very clear about that - it's because I am in class now, and I am thinking that I ought to say the right thing, and so I have ruined the whole thing! It was a revelation not only to her, but you could see with respect to the faces all around the room that we are all involved in this nonsense.	她开始越来越难以自圆其说。我们都看到了，她，我和全班，我们都看到了她所做的。最后她转过身来说，我之所以停下来，并不是因为我和树之间发生了什么 ——对此我非常清楚—— 而是因为我现在在课堂上，我认为我应该说对的事情，所以我就毁掉了这整件事情！这是个启示，不仅对她，而且你能看到，就房间里的所有人而言，我们都陷在这件荒唐的事情里了。克：是的，先生。
18:24	K: Yes, sir.	安：而她吃惊于她能如此背叛
18:25	A: And her shock that she could so betray this relationship that she had had in doing her exercise, in just a couple of words, was almost... K: Very revealing.	她在做那个练习时真正发生的那种关系，只是用了几句话而已，她的震惊几乎是...... 克：很有启示性。安：是的，非常有启示性，但同时
18:44	A: Yes, extremely revealing, but at the same time desperately hard to believe that anybody would do such a thing to himself.	也很难相信任何人都会对自己做出这样的事情。克：对的，对的。安：是的，请继续。
18:51	K: Quite, quite. A: Yes. Please, do go on.	克：所以，先生，就是这样的。
18:55	K: So, sir, that's it. Negation can only take place when the mind sees the false. The very perception of the false is the negation of the false. And when you see the religions, based on miracles, based on personal worship, based on fear that you, yourself, your own life is so shoddy, empty, meaningless, and it is so transient, you will be gone in a few years, and then the mind creates the image which is eternal, which is marvellous, which is the beautiful, the heaven, and identifies with it and worships it. Because it needs a sense of security, deeply, and it has created all this superficial nonsense, a circus - it is a circus. A: Oh yes.	否定只能在心智看到虚假的时候才会发生。对虚假的觉察正是对虚假的否定。当你看到各派宗教，建立在奇迹之上，建立在个人崇拜之上，建立在恐惧之上，害怕你、你自己、你自己的生活是如此卑劣、空虚、毫无意义，而且是如此短暂，几年后你就会过世，于是心智就会制造出永恒的、令人惊叹的、美丽的形象，制造出天堂，然后认同它，崇拜它。因为它需要一种深层的安全感，而它却制造了所有这些肤浅的蠢事、闹剧——那就是一场闹剧。安：噢，是的。克：所以心智能否观察这个现象
20:08	K: So can the mind observe this phenomenon and see its own demand for security, comfort, safety, permanency, and deny all that? Deny, in the sense, see how the brain, thought, creates the sense of permanency, eternity, or whatever you like to call it. And to see all that. Therefore one has to go much more deeply into the question of thought, because, both in the West and the East, thought has become the most important movement in life. Right, sir? A: Oh yes.	并且看到它自己对安全感的需求，对舒适、保障、永恒的需求，并且否定掉这一切呢？否定，它的意思，就是看到大脑、思想制造出永久感、永恒感，或者别的你喜欢的名称。要看到所有这些，一个人就必须更深入地探究有关思想的问题，因为，无论在西方还是东方，思想已经成为生活中最重要的活动了。对吗，先生？安：噢，是的。克：思想
21:13	K: Thought which has created this marvellous world of technology, marvellous world of science and all that, and thought which has created the religions, all the marvellous chants, both the Gregorian and the Sanskrit chants, thought which has built beautiful cathedrals, thought which has made images of the saviours, the masters, the gurus, the Father - image. Unless one really understands thought, what is thinking, we will still play the same game in a different field.	建立了令人惊叹的技术世界、令人惊叹的科学世界等等所有这些，思想也建立了各派宗教，谱写了美妙的圣歌，既有格里高利圣咏，也有梵文的颂歌，思想也建造了美丽的教堂，制造出了救世主的形象，大师、古鲁、圣父的形象。除非一个人能真正地了解思想，了解思想是什么，否则我们只是在不同的领域玩着同样的把戏而已。安：没错，没错。
22:17	A: Exactly, exactly.	克：看看这个国家正在发生的事。
22:19	K: Look what is happening in this country. These gurus come, from India, they shave their head, put on the Indian dress, a little tuft of hair hanging down, and repeat endlessly what somebody has said. A new guru. They have had old gurus, the priests.	这些来自印度的古鲁，他们剃光了头，穿上印度的衣服，垂下一小撮头发，不断地重复别人所说的话，这就是一个新的古鲁了。他们已经有很多老的古鲁和牧师了。安：噢，是的。克：天主教、新教，
22:44	A: Oh yes. K: The Catholic, the Protestant, and they have denied them, but accept the others! You follow? A: Yes.	他们否定了这些，但是又接受了另一些！你明白吗？安：是的。克：另一些同样是死的，和原来的一样，
22:52	K: The others are as dead as the old ones, because they are just repeating tradition: traditionally repeating how to sit, how to shave, how to meditate, how to hold your head, breathe. And finally you obey what the old guru says, or the young guru says. Which is exactly what took place in the Catholic world, in the Protestant world. They deny that and yet accept the other. Because they want security, they want somebody to tell them what to do, what to think, never how to think.	因为他们都只是在重复传统：重复传统上如何坐、如何剃发、如何冥想、如何去控制你的头脑和呼吸。最后你遵从老上师所说的，或者年轻上师所说的。这确实就是在天主教的世界、在新教的世界里发生的事情。他们否定了这个，却又接受了别的。因为他们想要安全，他们希望有人告诉他们做什么，思考什么，从来不想如何去思考。安：没错。这就引发了另一个问题，
23:36	A: No. This raises a question I hope we can explore together, that concerns the word 'experience'.	我希望我们能够一起探讨一下关于“经验”这个词的问题。克：噢，是的，这是另外一个词。
23:46	K: Oh yes, it's another word.	安：这很让人吃惊，在这个时代里
23:48	A: It's amazing how often in these times this word crops up to represent something that I desperately need, which somehow lies outside myself. I need the experience of an awakening. It isn't an awakening that I need, apparently, it's an experience of this awakening. The whole idea of religion as experience needs very careful thought, very careful penetration. K: Quite right. Sir, if I may ask, why do we demand experience? Why is this craving for experience? We have sexual experience, experiences of every kind, don't we?	这个词是如此频繁地出现，它代表着我极度需要的一种东西，而它又以某种方式存在于我之外。我需要一种觉醒的经验，它并不是我所需要的觉醒，很显然，而是一种觉醒的经验。把宗教当作经验的这整个理念需要加以非常谨慎的思考、非常仔细的洞察。克：非常对。先生，如果可以，我想问，我们为什么需要经验？为什么有这种对经验的迫切渴望呢？我们有性的经验，各种各样的经验，不是吗？安：是的。克：我们在生活中就是这样。
24:58	A: Yes. K: As we live. Insults, flattery, happenings, incidents, influences, what people say, don't say, we read a book, and so on. We are experiencing all the time. We are bored with that! And we say we'll go to somebody who will give me the experience of God.	辱骂、奉承、意外、事件、影响，人们所说的、没有说的，我们看书，等等所有这些，我们一直都在经历着。我们对此厌倦了！然后我们说我们要去找某个人，他会带给我们上帝的经验。安：是的，那就是他们宣称的。
25:27	A: Yes, that's precisely what is claimed.	克：是的。那么，
25:30	K: Yes. Now, what is involved in that? What is involved in our demand of experience and the experiencing of that demand? I experience what that guru, or master, or somebody tells me. How do I know it is real? And I say I recognise it, don't I, sir? Look, I experience something, and I can only know that I have experienced it, when I have recognised it. Right? A: Right.	这里面涉及了什么？我们对经验的需求，以及对这种需求的体验之中涉及到了什么呢？我体验到了那个古鲁、大师或者别人告诉我的事情。我怎么知道那是真的？我说我辨认了出来，是吗，先生？看，我经历了某事，而我只有在认出它的时候才能知道我经历过它。对吗？安：对的。克：识别意味着我已经知道了。
26:29	K: Recognition implies I have already known.	安：再次认知。克：再次认知。
26:34	A: Re-cognise. K: Re-cognise.	安：是的。
26:37	A: Yes.	克：所以，我在经历我已经知道的，
26:38	K: So, I am experiencing what I have already known, therefore it is nothing new. I don't know if I am... A: Yes, you are making yourself very, very clear.	因此没有什么东西是新的。我不知道我是否...... 安：是的，你说得非常非常清楚了。克：所以他们所做的一切都是自我欺骗。
26:51	K: So all they are doing is a self-deception.	安：实际上人们贪求经验。克：噢，天哪，是的。
27:00	A: It is actually lusted after. K: Oh, good lord, yes.	安：是的，渴求经验的驱动力是非同寻常的。
27:05	A: Yes, the drive for it is extraordinary. I have seen it in many, many students, who will go to extraordinary austerities, really.	我在许许多多学生身上看到了这一点，他们要去进行非常严苛的苦行，真的。克：我知道这些。
27:15	K: I know all this.	安：我们有时候认为如今的年轻人
27:17	A: We sometimes think that young people today are very loose in their behaviour. Some are - but what is so new about that, that has been going on since time out of mind. I think that what is rarely seen is that many young persons today are extremely serious about acquiring something that someone possesses that they don't have, and if someone claims to have it, naively, they are on their way. And they'll go through any number of cartwheels, they'll stand on their head indefinitely for that that lines up.	他们的行为举止都非常放纵。一些人确实如此——但是在这里看起来非常新鲜的行为，其实自古以来一直都在发生着。我认为罕见的是，当今的许多年轻人都极其认真地想要获得某些别人拥有而他们没有的东西，如果有人宣称拥有了它，他们就会很天真地去追随那些人。而他们要翻无数个筋斗，没完没了地倒立，才能排的上队。克：噢，是的，我看到了这些。
27:57	K: Oh yes, I have seen all that.	安：这样的事情就被叫做经验。
27:58	A: Which is called an experience as such.	克：那就是为什么一个人要非常地小心，
28:03	K: That's why one has to be very careful, as you pointed out, sir, to explore this word. And to see why the mind, why a human being demands more experience, when his whole life is a vast experience, with which he is so bored. He thinks this is a new experience, but to experience the new, how can the mind recognise it as the new, unless it has already known it? I don't know if I'm... A: Yes, yes. And there is something very remarkable here, in terms of what you said earlier, in other previous conversations: in the recognition of what is called the new, the linkage with old thought, old image, establishes the notion that there is something gradual in the transition. That there really is some kind of genuine link here with where I am now and where I was before. Now I become the next guru, who goes out and teaches the person how, gradually, to undertake this discipline.	正如你所指出的，先生，小心地去探讨这个词。并且去看看为什么心智，为什么一个人会需求更多的经验，而他的整个生活其实都是一大堆的经验，对这些经验他感到很无聊。他认为这是一种新的经验，但若要体验新事物，心智又怎么能辨认出那是新的呢？除非它已经知道了那个东西。我不知道我是否...... 安：是的，是的。这里有些东西非常值得注意，依据你之前说的，在之前的对话里说的：在识别所谓“新事物”的过程中，与老的思想、老的意象产生的联结，就建立了一个观念：有某种东西在慢慢地转变，也就是，其中真的有某种真实的连接，连接着我现在的位置和我以前的位置。于是，我成了新的上师，外出并且教别人如何逐步地去接受这种训练。克：是的，先生。安：而这种事情从来就没有停止过。
29:27	K: Yes, sir. A: And it never stops. No, I do see that. It's amazing. Driving down in the car this morning I was thinking about the whole business of chant that you mentioned, the beauty of it all, and since this is related to experience as such, I thought maybe we could examine the aesthetics, where this self-trapping lies in it. And of course, I thought of Sanskrit and that beautiful invocation that is chanted to the Upanishadic Isa: Poornamada, poornam idam poornat poornamudachyate poornasya poornam, and it goes on. And I said to myself, if one would attend to those words, there is the echo of the abiding through the whole thing, through that whole glorious cadence, and yet within it there's the radical occasion to fall into a euphoria. K: Yes, sir.	没停过，我确实看到了这点，这很令人吃惊。今天早上开车时我在想，你提到过的有关唱诵的一切，它所有的美，因为它同样和经验有关，所以我想也许我们可以来审视一下美学，其中就有自我设下的这种陷阱。当然，我想起了梵文以及《伊萨奥义书》中颂唱的优美祷告： “Poornamada, poornam idam poornat poornamudachyate poornasya poornam”, 一直这样继续下去。我对自己说，如果一个人仔细聆听这些词语，就会发现有一种持久的回声贯穿始终，贯穿着那整个华美的韵律，同时其中又有一种突然坠入狂喜的瞬间。克：是的，先生。安：然后困倦感取而代之。
30:56	A: And somnolence takes over. But it is within the very same! And I said to myself, maybe Mr. Krishnamurti would say a word about the relation of beauty to this in terms of one's own relation to the beautiful, when that relation is not seen for what it is. Since there is a narcosis present that I can generate. It isn't in those words! And yet we think that the language must be at fault, there must be something demonically hypnotic about this, we do. And then religious groups will separate themselves totally from all this. We had a period in Europe, when Protestants, Calvinists, wouldn't allow an organ, no music, because music is seductive. I am not the self-seducer, it is the music's fault!	但是那都属于同样的东西！我对自己说，也许克里希那穆提先生会说这种情况和美的关系是根据一个人自己和美的关系而定的，而此时这种关系并没有被如实地看到。因为我能够制造一个自我麻醉的此刻。此刻并不在那些词句中！然而我们认为这肯定是语言的问题，这其中肯定有某种东西具有魔鬼般的催眠作用，我们确实这么认为。然后宗教团体就会把他们自己从中完全隔离出来。欧洲曾经有一段时期，那个时期新教、加尔文派不允许有管风琴，不允许有音乐，因为音乐具有诱惑力，并不是我诱惑自己，而是音乐的错！克：就是如此，先生。安：让我们对此探究一下。
32:02	K: That's just it, sir. A: Let's look at it.	克：正如我们那天说的，先生，
32:10	K: As we were saying the other day, sir, beauty can only be when there is the total abandonment of the self. Complete emptying the consciousness of its content, which is the 'me'. Then there is a beauty, which is something entirely different from the pictures, chants - all that. And probably most of these young people, and also the older people, seek beauty in that sense: through the trappings of the church, through chants, through reading the Old Testament with all its beautiful words and images, and that gives them a sense of deep satisfaction. In other words, what they are seeking is really gratification through beauty, beauty of words, beauty of chant, beauty of all the robes, and the incense, and the light coming through those marvellous pieces of colour - you have seen it all in cathedrals, Notre Dame de Chartres, and all these places - marvellous. And it gives them a sense of sacredness, sense of feeling happy, relieved: at last there is a place, where I can go and meditate, be quiet, get into contact with something. And when you come along and say, look, that's all rubbish, it has no meaning! What has meaning is how you live in your daily life.	美仅仅存在于将自我完全摒弃之时，完全清空意识的内容，也就是“我”。然后就会有一种美，完全不同于图画、圣歌——等等所有这些东西。而可能大多数年轻人，也包括年长的人，在寻求着那种美：通过教堂里的各种陷阱，通过圣歌，通过阅读《旧约圣经》里那些优美的词句和图画，那给予了他们一种深深的满足感。换句话说，他们在寻求的实际上是满足感，通过美，字词的美、圣歌的美、各种礼服的美、焚香的美，那些从色彩斑斓的碎片中折射出的光亮 ——你在教堂里看到过所有这些，沙特尔的巴黎圣母院，等等所有这些地方——确实令人惊叹。这给了他们一种神圣感、幸福感、安慰感：至少还有一个地方，我能够光顾并且冥想，安静下来，与某种东西产生联结。而你过来说，看，所有这些都是垃圾，毫无意义！有意义的是如何过你的日常生活。安：是的。克：然后他们就会向你扔砖头。
34:23	A: Yes. K: Then they throw a brick at you.	安：当然，这就像是
34:26	A: Of course, it is like taking food away from a starving dog. K: Exactly. So, this is the whole point, sir: experience is a trap, and all the people want this strange experience, which the gurus think they have.	从一条饿狗那里夺走食物一样。克：没错。所以，这就是关键点，先生：经验是一个陷阱，而所有的人都想要这些奇怪的经验，古鲁们自认为拥有的东西。安：那也通常被称为知识。
34:56	A: Which is always called the knowledge. Interesting, isn't it? K: Very, very.	很有趣，不是吗？克：非常有趣。安：它通常被称作知识。
35:02	A: It is always called the knowledge. Yes. I was thinking about previous conversations about this self-transformation that is not dependent on knowledge.	是的，我在想我们之前关于不依赖知识的那种自我转变的对话。克：当然不依赖。安：也不依赖时间。克：对。
35:16	K: Of course not. A: Not dependent on time. K: No.	安：显然这就需要责任感。
35:18	A: And eminently requires responsibility.	克：还有，先生，我们不想做这个工作。
35:24	K: And also, sir, we don't want to work. We work very strenuously in earning a livelihood. Look what we do: year after year, year after year, day after day, day after day, the brutality, the ugliness of all that. But here, inwardly, psychologically, we don't want to work. We are too lazy. Let the other fellow work, perhaps he has worked, and perhaps he will give me something. But I don't say I am going to find out, deny the whole thing and find out.	我们在谋生过程中都很努力地工作。看看我们所做的：年复一年，日复一日，所有这些的无情、丑陋。但是在这儿，从内在、从心理上，我们不想做这个工作，我们都太懒了，让其他的家伙去干吧，也许这个家伙已经做过了，或许他会给我一些东西。但是我不会说我要找出真相，否定这整件事并且自己找出真相。安：不会，我们设想的是，牧师的职责就是
36:07	A: No, the assumption is that the priest's business is to have worked in order to know, so that I am relieved of that task, or if I didn't come into the world with enough marbles, then all I need do is simply follow his instructions, and it's his fault if he gets it messed up.	为了知道这一切而做过了这些事情，这样我就能免除那项任务了，或者如果我没有带着足够的聪明才智降生到这个世界的话，那么我需要做的就是单纯地遵循他的指示，并且如果他把这一切弄糟了的话，那是他的错。克：是的，我们从来不质疑
36:26	K: Yes, and we never ask the man who says, 'I know, I have experienced' what do you know? A: Exactly.	说这些话的人：“我知道，我已经经历过了” 你知道什么呢？安：没错。克：你经历过什么了？
36:37	K: What have you experienced? What do you know? When you say, 'I know' you only know something which is dead, which is gone, which is finished, which is the past. You can't know something that is living. You follow, sir? A: Yes.	你知道什么？当你说“我知道”的时候，你知道的是死的东西，是已经过去的东西，那已经结束了、已经属于过去的东西。你不可能知道活生生的东西。你明白吗，先生？安：是的。克：你永远不可能知道活生生的东西，它是活动的。
36:58	K: A living thing you can never know, it's moving. It is never the same. And so I can never say I know my wife, or my husband, my children, because they are living human beings. But these fellows come along, from India specially, and they say, I know, I have experienced, I have knowledge, I will give it to you. And I say what impudence. You follow, sir? A: Yes.	它从来都不是一样的。所以我永远不会说我了解我的妻子，或者我的丈夫、我的孩子，因为他们都是活生生的人。但是那些家伙来了，尤其是那些来自印度的，他们说，我知道，我已经经历过了，我有知识，我会把它传授给你。我说那是多么厚颜无耻啊。你明白吗，先生？安：是的。克：这是多么麻木、冷漠啊：
37:33	K: What callous indifference that you know and I don't know. And what do you know?	你知道而我不知道。那么你知道什么呢？安：有一点很令人诧异，
37:44	A: It's amazing what has been going on in the relation between men and women with respect to this, because a whole mythology has grown up about this. For instance, our sex says, woman is mysterious, and never is this understood in terms of the freshness of life, which includes everything, not just woman. Now we have an idea that woman is mysterious. So we are talking about something in terms of an essence, which has nothing to do with existence. Isn't that so? K: That's it, sir.	那就是在男人和女人之间的关系中一直都在发生着的事情，和我们讨论的这点有关，因为有一整套神话已经围绕这个话题建立了起来。例如，我们有关性方面的说法是，女人是神秘的，但人们从来没有从生活的新鲜性这个角度去理解这一点，而生活其实包括了一切，而不只是女人。现在我们有一种观念说女人是神秘的。所以我们现在讨论的是有关事物的本质，和存在无关，是这样吗？克：是的，先生。安：是的，是的，我的天啊！
38:26	A: Yes, yes. Goodness me! And as you said we are actually taught this, this is all in books, this is all in the conversations that go on in class rooms.	正如你所说的，我们实际上是被教育成这样的，这都是书本上的内容，这都是课堂上谈话的内容。克：所以那就是为什么，先生，我觉得，
38:40	K: So that why, sir, I feel, education is destroying people - as it is now. It has become a tragedy. If I had a son - which I haven't got, thank God! - where am I to educate him? What am I to do with him? Make him like the rest of the group? Like the rest of the community? Taught memories, accept, obey. You follow, sir? All the things that are going on. And when you are faced with that, as many people are now, they are faced with this problem.	教育正在破坏人类——事实就是如此。这已经变成了一场悲剧。如果我有个儿子——还好我没有，感谢上帝！—— 我会让他在哪里受教育呢？我要拿他怎么办？让他像团体里其他的人一样吗？像社会上其他的人一样吗？被教育去记忆、接受、服从。你明白吗，先生？所有这些都在发生着。当你面临这些的时候，正如现在的很多人一样，他们都面临着这个问题。安：是的，先生。这点毫无疑问。
39:30	A: They are, yes. There's no question about that.	克：所以我们说，看，让我们创建一所学校吧，
39:34	K: So we say, look, let's start a school, which we have in India, which I am going to do in California, at Ojai. We are going to do that. Let's start a school where we think totally differently, where we are taught differently. Not just the routine, routine, to accept, or to deny, react - you know - the whole thing. So from that arises, sir, another question: why does the mind obey? I obey the laws of the country, I obey keeping to the left side or the right side of the road. I obey what the doctor tells me - obey I am careful what he tells me, personally I don't go near doctors. If I do, I am very careful, I listen very carefully what they have to say, I am watchful. I don't accept immediately this or that. But politically, in a so-called democratic world, they won't accept a tyrant.	我们在印度已经有这样的学校了，我打算在加利福尼亚的欧亥也开一所这样的学校。我们打算这么做。让我们来创建一所学校吧，在那儿我们以完全不同的方式思考，在那儿我们以完全不同的方式接受教育。不是只是例行公事，例行公事地去接受或者拒绝、反抗——你知道——所有这些事情。因此从中，先生，就引发了另一个问题：心智为什么要服从？我遵守国家的法律，我遵守靠左行驶或者靠右行驶，我遵照医生告诉我的话——服从... 我对他所说的话会很谨慎，就我个人而言我不会太靠近医生。但如果我去看医生，我就会很小心，我小心地听他们要说的话，我很警惕。我不会立即接受这个或者那个。但在政治上，在一个所谓的民主世界里，他们不会接受一个暴君。安：不会，不会，他们不会... 接受一个暴君。克：他们说，不要权威，要自由。
40:55	A: No, no, they won't accept a tyrant. K: They say, no authority, freedom. But spiritually, inwardly, they accept every Tom, Dick, and Harry, especially when they come from India.	但是精神上，从内在，他们却接受每一个汤姆、狄克和哈利，特别是当他们是来自印度的。安：噢，是的。克：几天前我打开了伦敦的BBC广播电台，
41:13	A: Oh yes.	有个人正好在采访
41:14	K: The other day I turned on the London BBC, and there was a man interviewing a certain group of people. And the boy and the girl said, 'We obey entirely what our guru says'. And the interviewer said, 'Will he tell you to marry?' 'If he tells me, I will marry'. 'If he tells me, I must starve, I will starve, fast'. Just a slave. You understand, sir? And yet the very same person will object to political tyranny.	一群人。里面的男孩和女孩说， “我们完全服从我们古鲁所说的话”。然后采访者问， “他会让你结婚吗？” “如果他对我这么说，我会结婚的”。 “如果他告诉我，我必须挨饿，我就会去挨饿、禁食”。这是一个奴隶。你明白吗，先生？而就是这同一个人在反对政治上的专制。安：很荒诞。是的。
41:56	A: Absurd. Yes.	克：在那儿他会接受一个微不足道的古鲁的专制，
41:58	K: There he will accept the tyranny of a petty little guru with his fanciful ideas, and he will reject politically a tyranny or a dictatorship. So, why does the mind divide life into accepting authority in one way, in one direction, and deny it in another? And what is the importance of authority? The word 'authority', as you know, means 'the one who originates'.	以及他各种异想天开的想法，但他却反对政治上的专制或者独裁。所以，心智为什么会割裂生活，去接受某种权威、某个方向上的权威，却拒绝另外一种权威呢？那么权威的意义到底是什么呢？ “权威”这个词，就如你所知的，意思是“创始的那个人”。安：创始人，是的。克：“创始人”，是的，当然。
42:44	A: Author, yes. K: 'Author', yes, of course. And these priests, gurus, leaders, spiritual preachers, what have they originated? They are repeating tradition, aren't they?	这些牧师、古鲁、领袖、心灵传教士，他们开创了什么？他们都在重复传统，不是吗？安：噢，是的，说得太对了。
43:05	A: Oh yes, precisely.	克：而传统，无论是来自禅的传统、
43:08	K: And tradition, whether it is from the Zen tradition, the Chinese tradition, or Hindu, is a dead thing! And these people are perpetuating the dead thing. The other day I saw a man, he was explaining how to meditate, put your hands here, and close your eyes.	中国的传统或者印度教的传统，都是死的东西！而这些人都在无休止地延续死的东西。几天前我看到了一个人，他正在解释怎么冥想，把你的手放在这儿，闭上你的眼睛。安：是的，那个人我也看到了。克：做这个，做那个......我说，天啊。
43:31	A: Yes, that's the one I saw.	安：这很可怕。
43:32	K: And do this, that... I said, good God.	克：但是人们都接受这个。
43:35	A: It was appalling.	安：就在同一个场合下，那里有个女人，
43:38	K: And people accept it.	她用完了所有的钱，
43:41	A: And on the same thing, there was this woman, who had run out of money, she had nowhere to go to sleep and hysterically she was saying, 'I'm in line, I've got all these people ahead of me, but I must have this knowledge, I must have this knowledge'. The hysteria of it, the desperation of it.	没有地方可以睡觉，她歇斯底里地说： “我在排队，我前面排了这么些人，但是我必须拥有这种知识，我必须拥有这种知识。” 那么地歇斯底里，那么地绝望。克：那就是为什么，先生，
44:04	K: That's why, sir, what is behind this acceptance of authority? You understand, sir? The authority of law, the authority of the policeman, the authority of the priests, the authority of these gurus, what is behind the acceptance of authority? Is it fear? Fear of going wrong spiritually, of not doing the right thing in order to gain enlightenment, knowledge, and the super-consciousness, whatever it is, is it fear? Or is it a sense of despair? A sense of utter loneliness, utter ignorance? I am using the word 'ignorance' in the deeper sense of the word... A: Yes, yes, I follow.	接受权威的背后是什么呢？你明白吗，先生？法律的权威、警察的权威，牧师的权威、这些古鲁的权威，接受这些权威的背后是什么呢？是恐惧吗？害怕在灵性上走错，害怕没有做对事情，因而没有得到开悟、知识以及超意识，无论是什么，是不是因为恐惧？还是那是一种绝望感？彻底孤独的感觉、彻底无知的感觉？我使用了“无知”这个词就这个词更深刻的意义...... 安：是的，是的，我明白。克：......我会说，好的，那儿有个人
45:12	K: ...which makes me say, well, there is a man there who says he knows, I'll accept him. I don't reason. You follow, sir? I don't say, what do you know? What do you bring to us, your own tradition from India? Who cares! You are bringing something dead, nothing original - you follow, sir? - nothing real, but repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat what others have done, which in India they themselves are throwing out.	声称他知道，我就会接受他。我不去理性地思考。你明白吗，先生？我不会说，你知道什么？你会带给我们什么，你那些来自印度的传统吗？谁在乎！你带来了死的东西，没什么东西是原创的 ——你明白吗，先生？——没什么真东西，而只是重复，重复，重复，重复别人已经做过的，在印度他们自己都在扔掉那些东西。安：是的，我正在想坦尼森的语句
45:47	A: Yes. I was just thinking of Tennyson's lines - though in a different context - when he wrote: 'Theirs not to reason why, but to do and die'. K: Yes, that's the guru's thing. So what is behind this acceptance of authority?	——尽管是在不同的情境下—— 他写道：“他们不去思考为什么，而只是会去做然后死去”。克：是的，那就是古鲁的把戏。所以接受权威的背后是什么？安：这相当有趣，“权威”这个词
46:04	A: It is interesting that the word 'authority' is radically related to the self - autos, the self. There is this sensed gaping void, through the division.	和自我有着根本上的联系。通过划分，感觉到有一种不可跨越的鸿沟。克：是的，先生，就是如此的。安：通过划分。
46:25	K: Yes, sir, that's just it. A: Through the division. And that immediately opens up a hunger, doesn't it? And my projection of my meal, I run madly to.	而且那立刻引发了一种饥渴，不是吗？我投射出我的饭菜，然后狂奔过去。克：当你看到这些，你会想哭。
46:41	K: When you see this, you want to cry. You follow, sir? A: Yes.	你明白吗，先生？安：是的。克：要去找这些古鲁的所有那些年轻人，
46:47	K: All these young people going to these gurus, shaving their head, dressing in Indian dress, dancing in the streets. All the fantastic things they are doing! All on a tradition, which is dead. All tradition is dead. You follow? And when you see that, you say, what has happened? So I go back and ask: why do we accept? Why are we influenced by these people? Why are we influenced when there is a constant repetition in a commercial, 'Buy this, buy this, buy this'? It is the same as that. You follow, sir? A: Yes.	剃了头发，穿上印度的服饰，在街上跳舞。他们正在做所有那些古怪的事情！所有基于传统的东西，都是死的。所有传统都是死的。你明白吗？当你看到这些，你问，到底是怎么回事？所以我回过头来问：为什么我们要接受？为什么我们会受这些人的影响？当商业广告不断地重复“买这个，买这个，买这个”时，为什么我们会受到影响？这和那些是一样的。你明白吗，先生？安：是的。克：为什么我们要接受？
47:43	K: Why do we accept? The child accepts, I can understand that. Poor thing, he doesn't know anything, it needs security, it needs a mother, it needs care, it needs protection, it needs to sit quietly on your lap - you follow? - affection, kindness, gentleness. It needs that. Is it they think the guru gives him all this? Through their words, through their rituals, through their repetition, through their absurd disciplines. You follow? A sense of acceptance, as I accept my mother when a child, I accept that in order to be comfortable, in order to feel at last something looking after me.	孩子接受，我能理解。可怜的孩子，他还不懂事，他需要安全，他需要母亲，他需要照顾，他需要保护，他需要安静地坐在你腿上——你明白吗？—— 慈爱、友善、温柔，他需要这些。是不是他们认为古鲁也会给他们所有这些呢？通过他们的言语、通过他们的仪式、通过他们的重复、通过他们荒谬的戒律。你明白吗？一种接纳感，就像在我还是个孩子的时候我接纳我的母亲，我接纳是为了得到舒适，是为了感到最终会有人照顾我的。安：这和你早前说的有关，
48:39	A: This relates to what you said earlier, we looked into fear, the reaction of the infant is a reaction with no intermediary of any kind, of his own contrivance. He simply recognises that he has a need, and this is not an imagined want, it is a radical need. He needs to feed, he needs to be affectionately held. K: Of course, sir.	我们深入探究了恐惧，发现婴儿的反应是一种没有任何媒介的反应，其中没有他自己的任何想法。他单纯地认识到他有一个需要，这不是一个想象出来的需要，而是一种根本的需要。他需要喂养，他需要被慈爱地抱着。克：当然，先生。安：一个人从那儿到后来的过渡
49:19	A: The transition from that to the point where one, as he gets older, begins to think that the source of that need, is the image that is interposed between the sense of danger and the immediate action. So, if I am understanding you correctly, there is a deflection here from the radical purity of act. K: That's right, sir.	——当他长大时，开始思考那种需求的根源—— 就是意象，它介入到危机感和即刻行动之间。所以，如果我对你理解正确的话，这里就有一种背离了完全纯粹的行动的偏差。克：对的，先生。安：我自己就这么做了。
50:05	A: And I've done that myself. It isn't because of anything that I was told, that actually coerced me to do it, even though - what you say is true - we are continually invited, it's a kind of siren-like call that comes to us throughout the entire culture, in all cultures, to start that stuff.	那并不是因为有人告诉我要这么做，事实上也没有什么事逼迫我去那么做，即使——你所说的是正确的—— 我们不断地受到引诱，就像是一个迷人的女人对我们的召唤一样，通过整个文化、所有的文化，召唤我们开始做那样的事。克：所以，先生，那就是我想说明的。
50:32	K: So, sir, that's what I want to get at. Why is it that we accept authority? In a democratic world, politically, we'll shun any dictator. But yet religiously they are all dictators. And why do we accept it? Why do I accept the priest as an intermediary to something which he says he knows? And so it shows, sir, we stop reasoning. Politically we reason, we see how important it is to be free: free speech, everything free - as much as possible. We never think freedom is necessary here. Spiritually we don't feel the necessity of freedom. And therefore we accept it, any Tom, Dick, and Harry. It is horrifying! I've seen intellectuals, professors, scientists, falling for all this trash! Because they have reasoned in their scientific world, and they are weary of reasoning, and here, at last, I can sit back and not reason, be told, be comfortable, be happy, I'll do all the work for you, you don't have to do anything, I'll take you over the river. You follow? A: Oh yes.	为什么我们要接受权威？在一个民主世界里，在政治上，我们会避开任何一个独裁者。但是在宗教上他们都是独裁者。为什么我们会接受呢？为什么我们会接受牧师作为通往他声称知道的事物的一个中间人？这说明了，先生，我们停止了理性思考。在政治上我们理性地思考，我们看到自由是多么重要：言论的自由，一切的自由——尽可能多的自由。但我们从来没有认为自由在这里也是必要的。精神上我们没有觉得自由是必要的。所以我们就接受了权威，接受随便一个汤姆、狄克、哈利。这很可怕！我看到了知识分子、教授、科学家都迷恋所有这些垃圾！因为在科学的世界里，他们一直都在理性思考，他们厌倦了理性思考，在这里，终于，我能休息并且不用理性思考了，只是听人讲，很舒服、很快乐，我会替你做所有的事，你不必做任何事，我会接你过河。你明白吗？安：噢，是的。克：于是我很高兴。
52:28	K: And I'm delighted. So, we accept where there is ignorance, where reason doesn't function, where intelligence is in abeyance, and you need all that: freedom, intelligence, reasoning with regard to real spiritual matters. Otherwise what? Some guru comes along and tells you what to do, and you repeat what he does? You follow, sir, how destructive it is? A: Oh yes.	所以，我们接受了无知存在的地方，理性不起作用的地方，智力被暂时搁置的地方，而你需要所有这些：自由、智慧、理性来了解和真正的灵性事物有关的东西。否则还有什么呢？某个古鲁来了告诉你怎么做，然后你就重复他所做的？你明白吗，先生，这多么有破坏性啊？安：噢，是的。克：这是多么的堕落啊。这就是正在发生的事情！
53:22	K: How degenerate it is. That is what is happening! I don't think these gurus realise what they are doing. They are encouraging degeneracy.	我认为这些古鲁没有意识到他们正在做什么。他们正在鼓励堕落。安：没错，他们代表着这一系列同样的事。
53:38	A: Well, they represent a chain of the same.	克：没错。所以，我们能否
53:43	K: Exactly. So, can we - sir, this brings up a very important question - can there be an education, in which there is no authority whatsoever?	——先生，这引出了一个非常重要的问题—— 能否有一种教育，其中无论怎样都不会有权威？安：对此我肯定说“有”，就我昨天在课堂上的经历而言。
54:02	A: I must say yes to that, in terms of the experience that I had in class yesterday. It was a tremendous shock to the students when they suspended their disbelief for a moment, just to see whether I meant it, when I said, 'Now we must do this together ' not your doing what I say to do.	对于学生们来说那是一个巨大的震惊，当他们暂停他们的怀疑，只是来看看我说的是否有道理，当我说， “现在我们必须一起这么做” 而不是你按我说的做。克：一起工作。安：我们一起做这个。
54:31	K: To work together. A: We will do this together.	克：一起分担它。安：对的。你要质疑，而我也要质疑，
54:35	K: Share it together. A: Right. You will question, and I will question, and we will try to grasp as we go along - without trying. And I went into the business about let's not have this shoddy little thing 'trying'.	当我们一起前进的时候，我们要努力领会——不是努力。而我以前探讨过我们不要有“努力”这种卑劣琐碎的事。克：完全正确。安：解释这一点花了些时间，
54:51	K: Quite right. A: That took a little while. That increased the shock, because the students who have been - to their own great satisfaction - what you call 'devoted', those who do their work, who make effort, are suddenly finding out that this man has come into the room and he is giving 'trying' a bad press. This does seem to turn the thing completely upside down. But they showed courage in the sense that they gave it a little attention before beginning the true act of attention. That's why I was using 'courage' there, because it is a preliminary to that. I've quite followed you when you have raised the question about the relation of courage to the pure act of attention. It seems to me that is not where it belongs.	而这增加了他们的震惊，因为学生们——他们自己对此也极为满意—— 已经是你所说的很“投入”了，他们工作，付出努力，突然之间发现这个人进入了房间然后给了“努力一个很糟糕的评论。这似乎完全颠倒了黑白。但是他们展现了他们的勇气，至少在开始真正的关注之前他们给了这个问题一些关注。那就是为什么我使用“勇气”这个词，因为这是一种必备的前提。我一直都紧跟着你，在你提出这个问题的时候，也就是关于勇气和纯粹的关注行动之间关系的问题。在我看来，那不是勇气所属的地方。克：不是。安：但是他们确实为这个预备步骤起来做了准备。
55:59	K: No. A: But they did get it up for this preliminary step. Then we ran into this what I called earlier dropping a stitch - where they really saw this abyss, they were alert enough to stand over the precipice. And that caused them to freeze. And it's that moment that seems to me absolutely decisive. It is almost like one sees in terms of events, objective events. I remember reading the Spanish philosopher Ortega, who spoke of events that trembled back and forth before the thing actually tumbles into itself. That was happening in the room. It was like water that moved up to the lip of the cup and couldn't quite spill over. K: Quite, quite.	然后我们就偶遇了我在早前称之为漏织一针的东西——就在那里他们真正地看到了这个深渊，他们足够警惕地站在悬崖边。于是他们停了下来。而这一刻对于我来说具有绝对的决定性。这就差不多像是一个人依据事件，依据客观事件而看清了。我记得读过西班牙哲学家奥尔特加的书，他说有些事件会来回地震颤，一直到事情真正水落石出之前。这就是那天在教室里发生的事情。这就像水上升到杯口而不大会溢出一样。克：对的，对的。安：我已经比较详尽地谈了这一点，
57:21	A: I have spoken about this at some length, because I wanted to describe to you a real situation what was actually happening. K: I was going to say, sir, I have been connected with many schools, for 40 years and more, and when one talks to the students about freedom and authority, and acceptance, they are completely lost.	因为我想给你描述一个实际上发生的真实的情况。克：我要说，先生，我和很多学校已经有 40多年的联系了，当我和学生们谈及有关自由、权威以及接受时，他们都是完全迷茫的。安：是的。
57:53	A: Yes.	克：他们想成为奴隶。
57:56	K: They want to be slaves. My father says this, I must do this. Or, my father says that, I won't do it. It is the same... A: Exactly. Do you think in our next conversation we could look at that moment of hesitation? K: Yes, sir.	我父亲这么说，我就必须这么做。或者，我的父亲这么说，我就不那么做。都是一样的...... 安：确实如此。你认为在我们下次的对话中我们能否来审视一下那个“犹豫”的片刻？克：好的，先生。安：在我看来它对于教育本身来说真是太重要了。
58:21	A: It seems to me so terribly critical for education itself. Wonderful.	太棒了。