克里希那穆提 - 宗教、权威与教育—

Krishnamurti Subtitles

SD74CA16 - 宗教、权威与教育——第二部分
与艾伦·W·安德森博士的第十六次对话
美国，加利福尼亚，圣地亚哥
1974年2月27日

0:38	Krishnamurti in dialogue with Dr. Allan W. Anderson	克里希那穆提和艾伦·W·安德森博士的对话
0:43	J. Krishnamurti was born in South India and educated in England. For the past 40 years he has been speaking in the United States, Europe, India, Australia, and other parts of the world. From the outset of his life's work he repudiated all connections with organised religions and ideologies and said that his only concern was to set man absolutely unconditionally free. He is the author of many books, among them The Awakening of Intelligence, The Urgency of Change, Freedom From the Known, and The Flight of the Eagle. This is one of a series of dialogues between Krishnamurti and Dr. Allan W. Anderson, who is professor of religious studies at San Diego State University where he teaches Indian and Chinese scriptures and the oracular tradition. Dr. Anderson, a published poet, received his degree from Columbia University and the Union Theological Seminary. He has been honoured with the distinguished Teaching Award from the California State Universities.	J·克里希那穆提出生于南印度，在英国接受教育。在过去的40年里，他的演讲遍布美国、欧洲、印度、澳大利亚以及世界各地。从他开始毕生工作的那刻起，他就断绝了与有组织的宗教和意识形态的所有关系，并声明他唯一关心的是使人类获得绝对的、无条件的自由。他出版了多部著作，其中包括《智慧的觉醒》、《转变的紧迫性》、《从已知中解脱》、以及《鹰的翱翔》。这是克里希那穆提和艾伦·W·安德森博士的系列对话之一。安德森博士是宗教研究学的教授，就职于圣地亚哥州立大学，他从事印度语、汉语经典以及神谕传统的教学。安德森博士，一位出版过诗集的诗人，获得了哥伦比亚大学以及纽约协和神学院的学位。他还被加利福尼亚州立大学授予了杰出教学奖。
1:51	A: Mr. Krishnamurti, in our series of conversations we have reached, it seems to me, an especially critical place. In our last discussion together we touched on the question of authority, not only in relation to what is out there - that we project - and what is out there - that faces us, literally - but also the question at the deeper level of my relationship within. And the point where in the enquiry, in going deeply into myself, in self-examination, there is a point of boggling, when one boggles, one is hesitant and trembles. It is a real fear and trembling, that occurs at the brink of that enquiry. And at the conclusion of our former conversation, were moving toward a discussion of that in terms of its role in the religious life.	安：克里希那穆提先生，在我们一系列的对话中我们已经谈到了，在我看来，一个特别关键的地方。在我们上次的谈话里，我们谈到了权威的问题，不仅仅是和外在有关的权威——那其实是我们投射出来的—— 外在有些什么——它们就真实地摆在我们面前—— 而且我们还谈到了我内在关系中更深层次的问题。而在探讨的那个点上、在深入自己以及在自我检视的那一刻，有一刻是退缩的，而当一个人退缩时，他就会迟疑和颤抖。那是很真实的恐惧和颤抖，就发生在那种探讨的边缘。在我们上次谈话结束时，我们正朝着讨论权威在宗教生活中所扮演的角色这个话题推进。
3:14	K: That's right. A: Yes.	克：没错。安：是的。
3:22	K: Sir, why do we hesitate? That's what it comes to, what you are saying. Why do we not take the plunge? That's what you are asking. A: Yes.	克：先生，我们为什么犹豫？也就是说，你的意思是说，我们为什么不去冒险做尝试？这就是你所问的。安：是的。
3:36	K: Why is it always coming to the brink and withdrawing, running away? Why don't we see the thing as is and act? Is it part of our education that has cultivated function, enormously, we give tremendous importance to function, as an engineer, as a professor, as a doctor, and so on, so on, functioning in a particular technique. And we have never cultivated, or encouraged, or enquired into what is intelligence. Where there is intelligence, there won't be this hesitation. There is action. I mean, when one is very sensitive, you act! That sensitivity is intelligence. Now, in education - as I have observed it, both here and in India, and other parts of the world - education is merely training the mind to function to the dictates of society. So many engineers are wanted, so many doctors are wanted. If you get into a profession where there are few, you might make more money.	克：为什么总是来到那个边缘然后就退缩逃跑呢？为什么我们不看清楚事情的真相，然后就行动呢？是不是一部分是因为我们的教育把我们培养得具有很强大的职业性，我们太过重视职业了，作为一名工程师，作为一位教授、一个医生等等，等等，在某项特定的技能中运转。但是我们从来没有培养、鼓励或者深入探究什么是智慧。有智慧的地方，就不会有这种犹豫，就会有行动。我的意思是，当你非常敏感时，你就会行动！敏感就是智慧。而如今的教育——据我所观察的，在这儿，在印度或者世界的其他地方—— 教育都只是在训练心智按照社会的指令来运转。因此就需要很多工程师、很多医生。如果你进入一个职业，其中只有少数人，那么你就有可能赚到更多的钱。
5:24	A: You have to watch out for the glut.	安：你必须要小心供过于求。
5:26	K: Glut, yes. Don't become a scientist, there are enough scientists, or whatever it is. A: Oh dear, dear, yes.	克：供过于求，是的。不要成为一名科学家，科学家已经够多的了，或者其他的什么。安：哦，天哪，是的。
5:33	K: So we are encouraged and trained to function in the field of activity as functions, careers. Now, we hesitate to enter, or plunge, into something that demands all your attention, - not fragmentary - all your attention, because we don't know what is the measure. We know how to measure function. Here we have no measure. Therefore I depend. Therefore I won't reason here, because I don't know how to reason. I don't say to a man who says 'I know'... I say, 'What do you know?' You only know something that's gone, finished, dead. You can't say, 'I know something that's living'. And so gradually, as I see it, the mind becomes dull, restless. Its curiosity is only in the direction of functioning. And it has no capacity to enquire. To enquire you must have freedom first. I can't enquire otherwise. If I come to enquire to something which I have to enquire about, if I have prejudices, I can't enquire. If I have conclusions about that, I can't enquire. Therefore there must be freedom to enquire. And that is denied, because society and culture have laid tremendous importance on function. And function has its own status.	克：因此我们被鼓励、被训练成只在职能、职业的活动领域里发挥作用。而我们都很犹豫要不要进入或者投入到需要你全部注意力的事情上， ——不是一小部分——而是你全部的注意力，因为我们不知道怎么权衡。我们知道怎么权衡职能，但这里我们却没法权衡。于是我就会依赖，也因此在这里我不会理性地思考，因为我不知道怎么理性地思考。我不会跟一个说“我知道”的人说...... 我会说：“你知道什么？” 你只知道已经过去、已经结束、已经死去的东西，你不能说：“我知道活的东西”。因此渐渐地，当我看它时，心就会变得迟钝，焦躁不安。它的好奇心只在职能的方向上，它没有能力探究。要探究就必须首先拥有自由，否则我就无法探究。如果我去探究某样我必须探究的东西，如果我有偏见，我就不可能探究。如果我有一个结论，我也不可能探究。因此要探究必须要有自由。但是这被否定了，因为社会和文化极其重视职能，而职能有它自身的地位。
7:46	A: Oh yes, yes. It's exalted ultimately into process.	安：哦，是的，是的。但在整个过程中它的地位最终被过分抬高了。
7:50	K: Yes. Into a status. A: Right.	克：是的，被高举到了一个重要的地位。安：对的。
7:53	K: So, status matters much more than function.	克：因此，地位远比职能重要多了。
7:56	A: Yes.	安：是的。
7:58	K: And so I live in that field, in that structure, and if I want to enquire into religion, what is religion, what is God, what is immortality, what is beauty, I can't do it. I depend on an authority. And I have no basis for reasoning - you follow, sir? - in this vast field of religion. So, it is partly the fault of our education, partly our incapacity to look at anything objectively. Our incapacity to look at a tree without all the rigmarole, knowledge, screen, blocks, that prevents me from looking at the tree. I never look at my wife, if I have a wife, or a girl, or whatever, I never look. I look at her or him through the image I have about him or her. So, the image is the dead, dead thing. So, I never look at a living thing. I never look at nature with all the marvel of it, the beauty of it, the shape, the loveliness of it. But I am always translating it, trying to paint it, write about it, or enjoy it - you follow?	克：因此我生活在那个领域、那种架构里，如果我想深入探究宗教、何为宗教、何为神、何为永恒、何为美，我就无法探究，因为我依赖权威。在这个巨大的宗教领域里 ——你明白吗，先生？——我没有以理性为基础。因此，这种情况一部分是我们教育的错，一部分是因为我们没有客观看待事物的能力。我们没有不带着冗长的废话、知识、屏障及阻碍去看一棵树的能力，那些都妨碍了我看那棵树。我从来没有看我的妻子，如果我有妻子、女朋友或者诸如此类，我从来不看。我看她或他都是通过我对他或她的印象来看的。因此，印象是死的，死的东西。所以说，我从来没有看一个活生生的事物。我从来不看大自然，以及它所有的奇迹、它的美、它的样子、它的美好。而我总是在诠释它，试图把它画出来、写出来或者享受它——你明白吗？
9:42	A: Yes.	安：是的。
9:43	K: So, from that arises the question, why do human beings accept authority, obey? Is it because they have been trained in the field of function, where you must obey to learn - you follow? - you can't just... A: Oh yes. No, it has its own laws built in.	克：因此，从这里引发了这个问题：人类为什么接受权威、服从？是不是因为在职能的领域里他们已经被训练成这样了，你必须服从然后学习 ——你明白吗？——你不能...... 安：哦，是的。不，职能领域有其本有的律条。
10:15	K: It has its own disciplines. A: Exactly.	克：它有自身的纪律。安：没错。
10:16	K: It has its own laws, its own ways. Because I have been trained that way, I bring that over here, into the field of religion, into the field of something that demands freedom. Freedom not at the end, right from the beginning. Mind must be free from authority from the beginning. If I want to find out what is God - not I believe in God, that has no meaning - if there is God, if there is no God, I really want to find out. I am terribly serious. And if I am really serious, I am really concerned to the understanding, learning about God, if there is God, I must push aside completely all the beliefs, all the structure, all the churches, all the priests, all the books, all the things that thought has put together about religion. You follow? A: Yes, I do. I've been thinking very hard about your word 'intelligence' and the word 'truth' in relation to what you have been saying. And the passage from the gospel came to my mind, which would end up with a very different exegesis in terms of what you've been saying, if one applied what you've been pointing to to this text: 'When he, the spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth, and the truth shall make you free'. The truth is called a spirit here. And in the same St. John's gospel God is also called spirit. A radical act, not this spirit over there that I have projected. If one takes seriously - the terrible thing is that it hasn't been taken seriously.	克：它有自身的律条、自身的方式。因为我就是被那样训练的，于是我把那些带到了这里，带入了宗教领域，带入了这个需要自由的领域。自由不在终点，而恰恰是在最开始。心智必须从一开始就从权威中解脱出来。如果我想发现什么是神——不是我相信神，那毫无意义——是不是有神，或者是不是没有神，我真的想弄明白。我是极其认真的。而如果我真的很认真，真的很重视去了解、弄明白神是什么、是不是有神的话，我就必须把所有的信仰、所有的结构、所有的教堂、所有的牧师、所有的书、所有思想缔造的有关宗教的一切都弃置一旁，你明白吗？安：是的，我明白。我一直都很努力地思考你说的“智慧”一词，以及“真理”这个词与你所说的东西之间的关系。我想起了《福音书》里的一段文字，就你所说的意思而言，它最后会以一种非常不同的诠释出现，如果我把你指出的应用到这段文字里：“当他，真理的圣灵到来时，他会指引你们进入一切真理，而真理会让你自由。” 真理在这里被称作圣灵。在同一部《圣约翰福音书》里神也被称为圣灵，它是一种彻底的行动，而不是我投射出来的那个圣灵。如果一个人认真对待 ——糟糕的是它没有被认真对待过。
12:26	K: Because we are not allowed to be serious, sir.	克：因为我们不被允许去认真对待，先生。
12:30	A: We can't even be serious about the thing that is claimed that we must be the most serious about.	安：我们甚至不能认真对待那些据称我们必须极其认真地对待的事。
12:34	K: That's just it.	克：就是这样的。
12:35	A: Yes, I know what you mean.	安：是的，我知道你的意思。
12:37	K: I mean, we are not serious about our children! We don't feel responsible for them, right through life. Only till they are four, five, six, we are responsible, you know. After that, they can do what they want. So, freedom and authority cannot possibly exist together. Freedom and intelligence go together. And intelligence has its own innate, natural, easy discipline, discipline in the sense not of suppression, control, imitation, and all that, but discipline which is the act of learning all the time.	克：我的意思是，我们没有认真对待我们的孩子！我们不觉得对他们负有一辈子的责任。只有在他们四岁、五岁、六岁的时候，我们才有责任，你知道的。之后，他们就能做他们想做的。因此，自由和权威不可能一起存在。自由和智慧是并行的。智慧有它自己与生俱来的、自然的、不费力的纪律，这种纪律不是压抑、控制、模仿以及等等所有这样的事，而是一直不断地学习行动，这样的纪律。
13:33	A: In attention. K: Yes, in attention.	安：不断地关注。克：是的，不断地关注。
13:37	A: This intelligence that you speak of is associated with splendour? K: Yes.	安：你说的这种智慧和光辉有联系吗？克：是的。
13:44	A: Its advent is immediate, not gradual.	安：它的出现是即刻的，不是逐渐的。
13:51	K: No, of course not. The perception is intelligence!	克：没错，当然不是逐渐的。洞察就是智慧！
13:54	A: The perception is intelligence. K: And therefore acting.	安：洞察就是智慧。克：因此就有行动。
13:56	A: And perception is the act. K: Of course.	安：洞察就是行动。克：当然。
13:58	A: So the act, intelligence, beauty... K: All these.	安：因此行动、智慧、美...... 克：所有这些。
14:02	A: ...love, truth, freedom...	安：......爱、真理、自由......
14:05	K: Death, all those are one. A: ...order, they form a complete, total, integral movement in act. K: That's right.	克：死亡，所有这些都是一体的。安：......以及秩序，它们产生了一种行动中的彻底的、完全的、整体的运动。克：对的。
14:17	A: That, in itself, looked at positively, is even, once it's translated into a concept...	安：这行动，其本身，可以明确地看到它是均衡的，而一旦它被转化成一个概念......
14:26	K: Oh, then there is no longer that.	克：哦，那么它就不复存在了。
14:27	A: ...becomes in itself an occasion for terror again.	安：它自身在那一刻又会转变成一件可怕的事情。
14:31	K: Of course. A: Because it seems that it runs away too fast from you.	克：当然。安：因为它似乎太快地逃离了你。
14:35	K: Yes. A: As soon as you... It's as though these you've mentioned - beauty, intelligence, love, freedom... K: ...and death.	克：是的。安：只要你...... 这就像是你曾经提到过的——美、智慧、爱、自由...... 克：......和死亡。
14:49	A: ...have, so to speak, secured themselves against all tom-foolery.	安：......可以说，你一旦想要保护它们免于所有的愚蠢。
14:55	K: Yes, sir. Quite right.	克：是的，先生，十分正确。
15:00	A: They are so radically pure, that any foolery...	安：它们太纯粹了，以至于任何愚蠢......
15:04	K: So, sir, that means: can the mind put aside totally all the structure of thought with regard to religion? It can't put away the function of thought in the field of knowledge. That we have understood. That's very clear. But here there is something we don't know - you follow, sir? We pretend we know. When a man says Jesus is Saviour, or whatever, it is a pretension. It is saying, 'I know and you don't know'. What do you know, in the name of heaven, you know nothing! You just repeat what you have learned from somebody else! So, can the mind, in the field of religion, because religion is, as we said at the beginning, the gathering of all energy in that quality of attention. And it is that quality of attention that regenerates man, that brings about real transformation in man with regard to his conduct, his behaviour, his whole way of relationship. Religion is that factor. Not all this foolery that is going on. Now, to enquire, the mind must put aside all the structure of thought built around that word. You follow, sir? A: Yes, I do.	克：因此，先生，也就是说：心智能否完全摒弃有关宗教的所有思想结构呢？它不能摒弃思想在知识领域里的功能，这点我们都了解，这很清楚。但是这里有些东西我们并不了解——你明白吗，先生？但我们却假装知道。当一个人说，耶稣是救世主，或者诸如此类的话，这是一种虚伪的标榜，那就是在说：“我知道而你不知道”。其实你知道什么，以上天的名义，你什么都不知道！你只是在重复你从别人那儿学到的东西！因此，在宗教领域里，心智能否，正如我们一开始说的，因为宗教就是在这份关注的品质里聚集所有的能量。而正是这份关注的品质能带给人类新生，这会给人类带来真正的转变，在他的表现、行为以及他的整个人际关系里带来真正的转变。宗教就是那个要素，而不是上演着的那些愚蠢之事。而若要去探究，心智就必须把围绕这个词所建立的所有思想结构都抛开。你明白吗，先生？安：是的，我明白。克：我们能这么做吗？
17:06	K: Can one do it? If not, we are pretending, talking about God, no God, yes God. You follow? All that nonsense that is going on. So, that is the first question: can the mind be free of the authority of another, however great, however sublime, however divine or no divine - you follow?	如果不能，我们就会伪装，谈论神，没有神或者有神等等。你明白吗？这种无稽之事一直都在发生着。因此，这是第一个问题：心智能否摆脱他人的权威，无论那多么伟大、多么崇高、多么神圣或者不神圣——你明白吗？安：因为要回答这个问题，
17:35	A: And because an act is required in order to answer this question... K: Absolutely.	行动是必需的...... 克：没错。安：......每个人必须自己去这么做。
17:42	A: ...the individual must do this on his own.	克：否则他就只是生活在例行公事的职能里，
17:45	K: Otherwise he merely lives in a routine of function, which he has, which he is still doing, and therefore he escapes into all these circuses which he calls religion.	这是他一直拥有的生活，他还在这么生活着，因此他就逃避到所有那些闹剧中去，并美其名曰宗教。安：在昨天的课堂上，
18:01	A: This came to me with dramatic force yesterday in class. On the one hand, we have textbooks, textbooks which have survived the centuries, because of their classical value in that sense. And the usual way, in which this material is taught, is that one learns, let us say, something about the Chinese vision of life. Then we have the Hindu vision of life, and so we accumulate over a long period of time through school, clear through graduate school, if you can stand it, you come into possession of...	我非常强烈地感受到了这一点。一方面，我们有教科书，教科书已经存在好几个世纪了，因为它们有其传统的价值。通常的方法，也就是我们教授这些资料的方法是：比方说，我们学习中国人对生活的一些看法。然后我们还有印度人的生活观，因此我们在很长一段时间里，通过学校或者完全通过研究院，一直在累积知识，如果你能忍受这些，你就会拥有某些...... 克：......别人说过的东西。
18:51	K: ...what other people have said.	安：......别人说过的东西。克：但其实你..
18:53	A: ...what other people have said. K: But you know nothing about it! A: Exactly. You acquire certain skills in the order of function, as you have mentioned. Now, the teacher has a problem. I am thinking of these schools that you have referred to, in India and the one that will be in Ojai. There is a body of material here, clearly the teacher must be in possession of knowledge, in the order of functional operation, procedural techniques, and so forth. He simply has to know. The child is going to read books. K: Of course.	对它一无所知！安：没错。你只是获得了某些可以行使职能的技巧，就如你提到过的。那么老师就有了一个难题。我想起了你提到过的那些学校，那些在印度以及将要在欧亥成立的学校，在这里有大量的资料，很显然老师必须拥有知识，具备职能运转、程序上的技巧等等知识，他必须懂这些。孩子会去读课本。克：当然。安：在这些你所提起的学校，他会......
19:29	A: In these schools that you've mentioned, he is going...	克：哦，他们是这么做的。安：他们读课本。
19:31	K: Oh, they do. A: They read books. And all of them haven't been written necessarily by somebody who is undertaking to do the thing that goes on between the students and the teachers in these schools. Now, the teacher must handle this written material in books in a way to indicate to the child, the student, that it is possible to read this material without being self-divided in doing it.	但编写所有这些课本的人都不一定是在这几所学校从事师生之间教学活动的人。而老师必须通过某种方法运用课本里写的这些素材，给孩子、给学生指出：是有可能在学习这些教材的过程中不造成自我分裂的。克：但如果没有课本，
20:03	K: And also, what would you do if there was no book?	你会怎么办？安：你面临的是一样的情况。
20:14	A: You'd be in the same position.	克：不，如果没有课本，
20:16	K: No, if there was no book, nobody saying 'tradition', you have to find out for yourself.	就没有人说“传统”，你必须自己去发现真相。安：可这正是我们让他在读书的时候要做的，
20:29	A: But that's what we are asking him to do with his book, aren't we? K: Are we?	不是吗？克：我们是这样的吗？安：不，不，通常不是这样的。
20:34	A: No, no. Not in general. But in this new approach. K: Ah, of course.	但在这种新的方式下是这样的。克：啊，当然。安：在这种新的方式下，我们必须以某种方式......
20:39	A: In this new approach we must somehow...	克：......把课本和另一方面的内容都引入进来。
20:42	K: ...bring the book and the other.	安：......把课本和另一方面的内容结合起来。
20:43	A: ...bring the book and the other together.	克：和自由。课本和自由。
20:45	K: And the freedom. Book and freedom.	安：是的，这就是在昨天的课堂上
20:48	A: Yes. This is what hit me with such shock yesterday in class. And I immediately felt radically responsible for doing this, in so far as I could. And I was surprised to see that though the students were extremely hesitant, - there was a lot of anxiety there, real fear and trembling - what of health they possessed did assert itself, and there was tremendous interest in the possibility. But then there was the hesitation that somehow wasn't passed.	让我深受震动的地方。我立刻感到完全有责任去做这件事情，尽我自己所能。我也很吃惊地看到，尽管学生们都极其犹豫， ——其中也有很多的焦虑、真实的恐惧和颤抖—— 他们所拥有的东西确实会维护其自身，但他们对那种可能性有着巨大的兴趣。但是接着就有了犹豫，似乎这份犹豫还没有被超越。克：超越，没错。安：犹豫就在那儿。
21:42	K: Passed, quite. A: The hesitation is there. I have this feeling that this has happened through the centuries with persons who have seriously studied scriptures, since we were talking about religion. Sometimes you can detect it in their very commentaries, in their very writing. They come right up to it... K: And miss it.	我感觉，千百年来，从我们讨论宗教开始，这种情况就发生在了那些认真研究经文的人身上。有时你能在他们的那些注释里，在他们的著作里发现犹豫。他们径直地来到它面前...... 克：然后错过了它。安：......然后他们不可能...... 克：......做到。
22:07	A: ...and then they can't... K: ...make it.	安：......推倒它，他们无法......
22:10	A: ...push it over. They can't go...	克：我理解。安：......超越那个点。
22:13	K: I understand. A: ...beyond the point.	克：没错，先生。
22:16	K: That is, sir, it has been my fortune, or misfortune, to talk a great deal. And everybody comes to that point. They say, please what am I to do... I've reached that point I can't go beyond. Sir, look at it this way, if I may suggest: if I had a class, I wouldn't talk about the book, first. I'd say: freedom. You're second-hand people. Don't pretend you're not. You're second-hand, sloppy, shoddy people. And you are trying to find something that is original, God is, the reality is original. It's not coloured by all the priests in the world. It's original. Therefore you must have an original mind. Which means a free mind. Not original in painting a new picture, or a new this, that's all tommyrot. But a free mind! A free mind that can function in the field of knowledge, and a free mind that can look, observe, learn. Now, how do you help another, - or is it not possible - to be free? You understand? Look, I never belonged to anything. I have no church, no belief - all that. A man who really wants to find out if there is eternal, the nameless, something beyond all thought, he must naturally set aside everything built on thought: the saviour, the masters, the gurus, the knowledge - you follow? - all that. Are there people to do that? Will anybody undertake that journey? Or will they say, well, you tell me all about it, old boy. I'll sit comfortably, and then you tell me.	讲这么多话，是我的荣幸，或者是我的不幸。每个人到达这个点时，他们都问，请告诉我该怎么做...... 我已经到了那个点，但我无法超越它。先生，用这种方式去看，如果我可以建议的话：如果我上课，我不会先去讲书本上的东西，我会谈：自由。你是个二手的人，不要装作你不是。你是个二手的、懒散的、拙劣的人，而你却试图发现有原创性的东西，神是有原创性的，真相是有原创性的，它们没有被世界上的牧师们所染指，它们是原创的。因此你必须拥有一颗初心，那就意味着一颗自由的心。不是在画幅新画方面有原创性，或者一个别什么的新东西，那都是胡扯。而是一颗自由的心！一颗能够在知识的领域内运转的自由的心，一颗能够看、观察和学习的自由的心。那么，你要怎么帮助别人， ——或者是否这不可能——变得自由？你理解吗？你瞧，我从不隶属于任何东西。我不去教堂，没有信仰——等等所有这些。一个人若真的想发现是否存在那永恒的、不可名状的、超越所有思想的东西，那么他自然必须摒弃建立在思想之上的一切：救世主、上师、古鲁、知识 ——你明白吗？——所有这些。有这么做的人吗？有人愿意开始这段旅程吗？还是他们会说：“好的，老兄，你来告诉我吧，我很舒适地坐着，然后你来告诉我。” 安：是的，是的，那就是在发生的事情。
24:52	A: Yes, yes, that's what goes on.	克：我说，我不会去描述那个东西。
24:54	K: I say, I won't describe that. I won't tell you a thing about it! To put it into words is to destroy it. So, let us see if you cannot be free. What are you frightened about? Frightened of authority? Frightened of going wrong? But you are completely wrong the way you live, completely stupid the way you are carrying on, it has no meaning. You follow, sir? Deny the spiritual authority of every kind. What are you frightened of? Going wrong spiritually? They are wrong. Not you are wrong, because you are just learning. They are the established in unrighteousness.	我不会告诉你一丁点有关它的事情！诉诸言语就是在摧毁它。因此，让我们看看你是不是不可能自由。你害怕什么？害怕权威吗？害怕犯错吗？但是你的生活方式完全是错的，你所坚持的方式是完全愚蠢的，它毫无意义。你明白吗，先生？要否定各种精神上的权威。你在害怕什么？在灵性上走错路吗？这些权威是错的，不是你错了，因为你只是在学习。他们都是建立在不正当的基础之上的。安：太美了。是的。
25:58	A: That's beautiful. Yes.	克：并且，你为什么要追随他们？你为什么要接受他们？
26:05	K: And so, why do you follow them? Why do you accept them? They are degenerate. And can you be free from all that, so that your mind, through meditation - which we will discuss perhaps another time - what it means to be free, what it means to wipe away all the things that people have put on you. You understand? So that you are innocent. Your mind is never hurt, is incapable of being hurt. That is what innocency means. And from that, enquire, let's take a journey from there. You follow, sir? From this sense of negation of everything that thought has put together. Because thought is time, thought is matter. And if you are living in the field of thought, there will be never freedom. You are living in the past. You may think you are living in the present, but actually you are living in the past when thought is in operation, because thought is memory, response of memory, knowledge, experience stored up in the brain. And that knowledge, experience, is the expression of thought. Unless you understand that and know the limitation of thought, you can't enter into the field of that which you call religion. You follow, sir? Unless this is told, repeated, shown to them, they can talk endlessly about books. This comes first. Then you can read the books.	他们都是堕落的。而你能否从中解脱出来，于是你的心，通过冥想 ——我们也许下次会讨论冥想—— 自由意味着什么，清除人们加在你身上的所有东西意味着什么。你理解吗？这样你就是纯真的，你的心从来不会受伤，能够免于受伤。那也就是纯真的意思。然后从这里去探究，让我们一起由此开始探索之旅。你明白吗，先生？从这里出发，也就是否定思想所制造的一切。因为思想就是时间，思想就是物质。如果你活在思想的领域里，永远都不会有自由。你正活在过去中。你也许会认为你活在当下，但是当思想运作时，你实际上是活在过去中的，因为思想就是记忆、记忆的反应、知识以及储存在大脑里的经验。并且这些知识、经验，就是思想的表达。除非你了解这些并且知道思想的局限，否则你不可能进入被你称作为宗教的领域。你明白吗，先生？除非把这些告诉、复述或展示给他们看，否则他们就会无休止地谈论书本上的东西。首先要做这件事情，然后你才能去看书。安：是的。克：先生，佛陀从来没有读过一本书。
28:12	A: Yes. K: Sir, the Buddha never read a book. He listened, watched, looked, observed, fasted, said, 'All that's rubbish' and threw it out.	他聆听、注视、审视、观察、斋戒，他说：“所有那些都是垃圾”，然后扔掉了它们。安：我正好想到了你说过的事：
28:26	A: I just thought of something that you said: one must keep on repeating this again.	你必须不断地多次重复这些。克：以不同的方式。安：以不同的方式，并且一再重复。
28:35	K: In different ways. A: In different ways, and again. I'm speaking now about teaching. This point of hesitation is the point where something will or will not get born.	我现在说的是关于教育的问题。这个犹豫的点就是某些事物将会诞生或不会诞生的节点。克：没错，先生。
28:57	K: That's right, sir.	安：这是你之前使用过的
28:59	A: That beautiful expression that you used earlier: 'incarnate now'. K: Now, yes.	那个很优美的表达： “现在就重生”。克：现在，是的。安：因此，我们就处在这个边缘上。
29:06	A: So, we're on the brink. We're, in the words of Ortega, rocking back and forth on the brink of a new event. And we're not over the line. There is nothing that any of us can do at that point with respect to the terror of the one who hears this, including my own, I'm not dividing myself from this doing together with the student, since I'm a student in this activity. So here we are - student among students. And there is this boggling, this fear and trembling, and nothing can be done other than simply encourage.	我们是，用奥尔特加的话来说，来回不断地摇摆到一个新事件的边缘，而我们没有过界。对于听了这个说法而心生恐惧的人而言，包括我自己，在那个节骨眼上我们都什么也做不了，我没有把自己从这种和学生们一起进行的活动中区分出来，因为在这个活动中我也是个学生，因此在这里我们都是——学生。这时就有这种犹豫，这种恐惧和颤抖，而除了单纯的鼓励，我们对此无能为力。克：那就告诉他们，等一下，就待在那儿。
30:04	K: And tell them, wait, stay there.	安：待着不动。克：待着不动。
30:08	A: Hold. K: Hold. Doesn't matter if you wobble, but keep on wobbling.	如果你在颤抖也没关系，那就继续颤抖。安：不要逃跑。克：不要逃开。
30:15	A: Don't bolt. K: Don't run away.	安：然后以各种不同的方式来讲这一点，
30:21	A: And so this is said in different ways over and over again. Now I understand what you meant by saying, now let's start the class ten minutes...	一次又一次不断地讲。现在我理解你所说的意思了，现在让我们开始上课，花十分钟...... 克：......讲这个话题。安：.......讲这个话题。
30:32	K: ...with this. A: ...with this. We don't open the book. K: That's right, sir.	我们不用打开课本。克：没错，先生。安：我们不用翻开书，我们就从这个开始。
30:36	A: We don't open the book, we start with this. And then when the book is opened, perhaps the word, for a change, will disclose itself.	然后再打开书时，也许那个词，已经不同了，它会揭示出它自己。克：没错。
30:44	K: That's right.	安：因为智慧爆发了。
30:45	A: Because intelligence has broken out.	克：没错。安：瞧，这太棒了。
30:48	K: That's right. A: And behold, it's all splendid. Yes. Please, I didn't mean to interrupt you. I just wanted to make sure that I have... it's terribly important that I understand this.	是的。抱歉，我不是有意打断你。我只是想确认一下我已经...... 对我来说理解这点是极其重要的。克：你看，先生，
30:59	K: Because, you see, sir, students rush from one class to the other, because the period is short, run from mathematics to geography, from geography to history, chemistry, biology - you follow? - run, run. And if I was one of the professors, teachers, I would say, 'Look, sit down. Be quiet for five minutes. Be quiet. Look out of the window, if you want to. See the beauty of light on the water, or the leaf, and look at this and that, but be quiet'.	因为学生们总是很匆忙地从这节课奔到另一节课，因为时间短暂，从数学课到地理学课，再从地理课到历史课、化学课、生物课——你明白吗？——奔来奔去。如果我是教授或老师之一，我会说， “注意，请坐。请安静五分钟。安静。看看窗外，如果你想这么做的话。看看水面上波光的美，叶子的美，看这个，看那个，但要静下心来。” 安：我们现在上课的教室是没有窗户的。
31:44	A: We teach in classes that don't have windows now.	克：无疑，这很自然。安：是的，我只是打个趣而已。
31:47	K: Of course, naturally. A: Yes, I was just being facetious.	克：当然，先生。安：但也不只是打个趣而已。
31:50	K: Of course, sir. A: But not only facetious. It's a horror. K: Horror... You are trained to be functional. You follow, sir?	这很可怕。克：可怕...... 你被训练得很具有职能性。你明白吗，先生？安：我知道。
31:58	A: I know.	克：不许看别的东西，只要做猴子就行！
32:02	K: Don't look at anything else, but be monkeys! And my child is brought up that way. A: Yes.	而我们的孩子就是这么被带大的。安：是的。克：这很可怕。安：教室就是一座坟墓，是的。
32:15	K: It is appalling. A: The classroom is a tomb. Yes.	克：因此，我说，“安静地坐着”。
32:20	K: So, I say, 'sit quietly'. Then after sitting quietly I talk about this first. I have done this in schools. Talk about this - freedom, authority, beauty, love, all that we have been discussing. Then pick up your book. But you have learned much more here than in the book.	安静地坐下来之后，我首先要谈谈这个。我在学校里这么做过。探讨这些——自由、权威、美、爱、等等这些我们之前一直在讨论的东西，然后再拿起你的书本。但是这样比你在书本上学到的要多得多。安：哦，是的，哦，没错。
32:45	A: Oh yes. Oh sure.	克：因此，书本显示出了你真实的样子——你明白吗？
32:46	K: Therefore the book shows what you are - you follow?	安：是的，的确如此。
32:49	A: Yes. Exactly. The book is seen...	看书的方式...... 克：书本就成了二手的东西。
32:55	K: Book becomes a second-hand thing.	安：是的。用一双纯净的眼睛去看书。
32:57	A: Yes. It's seen with a clean eye.	克：那就是为什么，先生，我个人从来不读
33:04	K: That's why, sir, I personally have never read a single book of all this, neither the Gita, the Upanishads, what the Buddha has said. It somehow bored me. I am sorry. It meant nothing to me. What has meant anything was to observe: observe the very poor in India, observe the rich, the dictators, the Mussolinis, the Hitlers, the Krushchevs and Brezhnevs, watch them, and the politician. And you learn an awful lot. Because the real book is you. Do you understand, sir? If you can read your book, which is yourself, you have learned everything, except the functional knowledge. So, when there is self-knowing, authority has no meaning. I won't accept. Why should I accept these people that bring truth from India? That's not truth they are bringing! They are bringing a tradition, what they believe. So, can the mind put away everything that man has taught, or invented, imagined, about religion, God, this and that? That means, can this mind, which is the mind of the world, which is the mind of common consciousness, can that consciousness empty itself of all the things man has said about reality? Otherwise I can't - you follow, sir?	那些书中的任何一本，无论是《薄伽梵歌》、《奥义书》还是佛陀所说的，不知怎的都让我厌烦。我很抱歉这么说。对我来说那些都毫无意义。有意义的事情是去观察：观察印度的穷人，观察有钱人、独裁者，墨索里尼式的人和希特勒式的人、赫鲁晓夫式的人和布里兹涅夫式的人，观察他们，还有政客们。而你会学到非常多。因为真正的书本就是你自己。你明白吗，先生？如果你能阅读你自己这本书，你就学到了一切，除了实用性的知识。因此，当有了自我了解时，权威就毫无意义了。我不会接受。为什么我要接受这些把真理从印度带来的人？他们带来的不是真理！他们带来的是一种传统，是他们的信仰。因此，心能否抛开人类已经教授或者发明、想象的有关于宗教、神、这个和那个的一切呢？也就是说，心，这颗属于全世界的心，这颗拥有共同意识的心，这个意识能否让自己清空人们说过的有关真相的所有东西呢？否则我不可能——你明白吗，先生？安：不可能开始。
35:21	A: Can't begin.	克：不仅仅是开始，我自己发现了什么？
35:23	K: Not only begin, what do I discover? What other people have said? What Buddha, Christ... why should I accept that?	别人又说了些什么？佛陀、基督......为什么我要接受他们所说的？安：哦，糟糕的是，我无法领会
35:33	A: Well, the terrible thing is, I'm not in a position to grasp whatever they said that was worthwhile until this occurs.	他们所说的有价值的一切，除非清空发生。克：因此，自由，先生，是绝对必要的。
35:47	K: So, freedom, sir, is an absolute necessity.	安：哦，是的，绝对。克：但是他们没有一个人这么说。
35:52	A: Oh yes. Absolutely. K: But none of them say this. On the contrary. They say, freedom will come to you much later. Be in the prison for the rest of your life. When you die, you'll have freedom. That's what they are preaching, essentially. So, can the mind, the heart, and all the storehouse in the brain, be free of the things that man has said about reality? That's a marvellous question. You understand, sir?	恰好相反，他们说，自由很久以后才会降临到你身上。余生的时间都呆在监牢里吧。当你死的时侯，你就会得到自由。实质上那就是他们所宣扬的。因此，心能否，内心以及大脑中所有的记忆库，能否摆脱人们关于真相所说的一切？这是个很了不起的问题。你了解吗，先生？安：哦，我了解，我了解。
36:39	A: Oh, I do, I do. One of the things that seems to me of remarkable cogency in our conversations, has been how continually you have returned to a question.	在我们的谈话里，其中有一件事对我而言具有非凡的力量，那就是你是如何不断地回到问题中去的。克：是的。安：回到问题中去。
37:00	K: Yes.	“回到”的意思，其深层的含义，
37:01	A: Return to the question. And the notion of return, in its depth, has, it seems, been quite erroneously presented. The return has been presented as a movement to an answer.	似乎被表达得很不正确。 “回到”一直被表述成一种寻求答案的活动。克：没错，没错。
37:29	K: Quite, quite.	安：但寻求答案的活动并不是“再次转向”。克：不是，当然，不是。
37:30	A: But that is not a re-turn. K: No, of course, not.	安：不是，因为“转向”是朝向
37:33	A: No. Because the turn is toward that original that you mentioned. Therefore it is to the question, not to the answer at all.	你提到过的原创性的，因此“回到”其实是面向问题的运动，而根本不是寻求答案的运动。克：没错，先生。
37:47	K: Quite right, sir. You know, I was staying once in Kashmir, right among the mountains. And a group of monks came to see me, freshly bathed and everything, done all the ceremony, and all that. They had come to see me. And they told me they had just come from a group of unworldly people, who are super-monks, who were very high up in the mountains. And they said they are totally unworldly. I said, 'What do you mean by that word, sirs?' They said, 'They have just left the world, they are no longer tempted by the world. And they have this great knowledge of the world'. And I said, 'When they have left the world, have they left the memory of the world?' The memory, the knowledge, which the world has made - you follow? - which the gurus have put together, the teachers. He said, 'That's wisdom. How can you leave wisdom?' I said, 'You mean wisdom is bought through a book, through a teacher, from another, through sacrifice, torture, renunciation?' You follow, sir, their idea? That is, wisdom is something you can buy from somebody else.	你知道，我曾经在克什米尔待过，就在群山之中。有一群僧侣来见我，他们刚刚沐浴过，做了所有的典礼，等等这些。他们来见我。他们告诉我他们是一群超凡脱俗的人，是上等的僧侣，他们住在高高的山上。他们说他们完全是超脱尘世的。我问：“你们说的这个词是什么意思呢，先生们？” 他们回答说，“他们已经离开了这个尘世，不会再受到这个世界的诱惑。但他们拥有对这个世界的渊博知识。” 然后我说：“当他们离开这个世界的时候，是否也抛开了对这个世界的记忆呢？” 由这个世界制造出来的记忆、知识 ——你明白吗？—— 那是古鲁们、老师们所制造出来的。他接着说：“那是智慧，你怎么能抛开智慧呢？” 我说：“你是说智慧是通过一本书、通过一个老师，是从别人那里买来的，是通过牺牲、苦行、弃世换来的吗？” 你明白吗，先生，他们的想法？他们的想法就是，智慧是你能从别人那儿买到的东西。安：他们背着所有这些包袱上了山。
39:36	A: They went up the mountain with all this baggage.	克：包袱，没错。那正是我想说的。
39:40	K: Baggage, that's right. That's exactly what I said. All the baggage which you have put away - the world you've, probably - but you've carried their baggage. You follow, sir? A: Oh, goodness me.	你已扔掉了你所有的包袱 ——可能你扔掉了俗世——但你却一直背着别人的包袱。你明白吗，先生？安：哦，我的天。克：因此，这真的是一件很重要的事情，
39:56	K: So, that is really an important thing, if a mind is really very serious, to find out what religion means. Not all this rubbish. I keep on repeating, because that seems to be mounting, you know, growing. But to free the mind from all the growth, accretions, and therefore which means: see the accretions, see all the absurdities!	如果一颗心真的很认真，就去发现宗教意味着什么，而绝不是所有这些垃圾。我一直反复地说这些，因为那些垃圾似乎一直在堆积，你知道，它们在增加。但是要让心智从所有这些增长、堆积中解脱出来，那就意味着：看到这种增长，看到所有这些荒谬的事情！安：这向我们所使用的“世俗”这个词
40:38	A: This throws a very, very different cast on our word 'worldly'. K: Yes, that's just it.	提出了一个非常非常不同的质疑。克：是的，就是这样。安：他们
40:44	A: They are going up the mountain in order to leave the world. But they are taking immense pains to take it with them.	为了离开世俗而上山。但是他们却背着那些包袱，承载着巨大的痛苦。克：没错，先生。那就是他们走进寺院的时候
40:52	K: That's right, sir. That's what they are doing when they go into the monastery.	在做的事。安：当然。
40:55	A: Of course. Accretions, encrustations.	增长，沉积。克：那么——现在我回过头来说——心能否完全独立？
41:05	K: So now - I come back - can the mind be completely alone? Not isolated, not withdrawn, not build a wall around itself, say, 'And then I'm alone'. But alone in the sense that aloneness that comes when you put away all this, all the things of thought. You understand, sir? Because thought is so clever, cunning. It can build a marvellous structure and call that reality. But thought is the response of the past, so it is of time. Thought being of time, cannot create something which has no time. Thought can function in that field of knowledge. It is necessary, but not in the other. And this doesn't need bravery. It doesn't need sacrifice. It doesn't need torture. Just perception of the false. To see the false is to see the truth in the false. I don't know...	不是孤立，也不是退缩，不是在自己周围建立起一堵墙，然后说，“现在我独立了”。这里的独立指的是当摒弃了那一切时才会到来的单独，摒弃了所有思想的东西。你了解吗，先生？因为思想是如此的聪明、狡猾。它能制造出令人惊叹的构造并称之为真相。但思想是对过去的反应，因此它是属于时间的。思想属于时间，所以无法创造出脱离时间的事物。思想能够在知识的领域里发挥作用，这是必需的，但在其他的领域并不是必需的。而且这不需要勇气、不需要牺牲、不需要苦行，只需要觉知虚假。看清虚假就是在虚假中看到真相，我不知道...... 安：看清虚假就是在虚假中看到真相。
42:41	A: To see the false is to see the truth in the false.	克：当然。安：我必须再重复一遍。
42:45	K: Of course. A: I must repeat that again. To see the false is to see the truth in the false.	看清虚假就是在虚假中看到真相。克：并且也看清被当作真相的实际上是虚假的。
42:55	K: And see what is considered truth as the false.	安：是的，是的。
43:03	A: Yes, yes.	克：因此，我的眼睛剥掉了所有的虚假，
43:08	K: So, my eyes are stripped of all the false, so that there is no inward deception whatsoever, because there is no desire to see something, to achieve something. Because the moment there is a desire to experience, to achieve, to arrive at enlightenment - all that, there is going to be illusion, something desire has created. Therefore the mind must be free of this pursuit of desire and its fulfilment, which we discussed previously. Understand what the structure of desire is. We talked a great deal about that. So, it comes to this point: can the mind be free and free of all the things which are born of fear, and desire, and pleasure? That means one has to understand oneself at great depth.	因此内心不再有任何欺骗，因为没有欲望要去看到什么、达成什么。因为一旦想要去经验、去达成、去实现开悟——等等所有这些，就会有幻觉，那是欲望制造出来的东西。因此心智必须摆脱对欲望的追求及满足，这些我们之前都讨论过了。理解欲望的结构是什么。我们就这点讨论过很多。因此，现在我们来到了这一点：心智能否自由，并且摆脱恐惧、欲望和快乐所产生的一切？这也意味着一个人必须对他自己有很深刻的了解。安：我有个不断冒出来的想法是，
44:39	A: The thing that keeps popping up is that one can repeat those questions...	一个人可以重复这些问题...... 克：是的，先生。安：......并开始以为他已经领悟了它们。
44:51	K: Yes, sir.	克：你领悟的只是些词语。安：没错。
44:52	A: ...and start to think that he has grasped them.	有些东西你必须
45:00	K: You grasp the words. A: Exactly. There is something which you have to come out the other side of.	从另一面去看。克：十分正确。
45:08	K: Quite right.	安：但反复提出这些问题
45:11	A: But the repetition of the question does have a functional value. K: I know.	确实有其实用价值。克：我知道。安：在我看来是这样的。克：是的，先生，确实如此。
45:21	A: It seems to me. K: Yes, sir, it does. That is, if the person is willing to listen.	那就是，如果一个人愿意倾听的话。安：如果他愿意倾听，
45:27	A: If he is willing to listen, because thought is incredibly deceitful.	因为思想极具欺骗性。克：是的。安：正如你所指出的。
45:34	K: Very. A: As you have pointed out. I was just thinking of poor old Jeremiah's words: 'The heart is desperately wicked and deceitful above all things'. Surely he must have...	我正好想起了可怜的老耶利米的话： “在万物中，心是极度邪恶和最具欺骗性的。” 无疑他肯定...... 克：......体验到了些什么。安：是的，那是当然的，
46:01	K: ...tasted something. A: Yes, and of course, as with the whole line... But I was asking myself this question concerning why I went on to continue my formal education. And in following this deeply, it seems to me, to go back to something that is going to sound very absurd, but it has something to do with everything you've said. When I was very small, growing up in England, I was put to school rather earlier than many American children and I always read a great deal of poetry. I don't know what has happened to us in this country, but poetry doesn't really exist for the populace at all. K: No, sir, I know.	按照这整个说法...... 但是我问自己我为什么要继续接受这种正规教育。而在跟随这个问题深入下去的过程中，在我看来，重新面对某事，这听起来会非常的荒谬，但它和你所说的一切都有关。我小时候是在英国长大的，我被送到学校的时间比很多美国孩子要早一些，我总是阅读大量的诗歌。我不知道这个国家的人怎么了，但对于普通民众来说，诗事实上是根本不存在的。克：没错，先生，我知道。安：但是，感谢上帝，我是每天伴着它长大的。
47:00	A: But, thank God, I was brought up on it daily.	克：是的，在英国，当然，每个人都读诗
47:07	K: Yes, in England, of course, everybody reads poetry - Greek, Latin - we all went through it.	——希腊语、拉丁语——我们都经历过这些。安：一位年轻女子常常读诗给我听，
47:13	A: And I was always read poetry by the young woman employed by my parents to look after me and my little sister, and so forth. I never went to sleep without hearing it. One day when I was very small, at school, the teacher read 'The Owl and the Pussy Cat went to sea in a beautiful pea green boat' that marvellously mad thing Edward Lear wrote.	她是我父母雇来照顾我和我妹妹的，等等。我一直是听着诗歌入睡的。在我还很小的时候，有一天，在学校里，老师朗读到： “猫头鹰和小猫乘着一艘豌豆绿的美丽小船，一起去航海。” 这是爱德华·李尔写下的一件极其疯狂的事情。克：爱德华·李尔，是的。
47:42	K: Edward Lear, yes.	安：你知道，我就再也不一样了。
47:44	A: And you know, I was never the same again. And I know now why - it sounds absolutely absurd - I came to experience in language a splendour that I never lost touch with despite all the struggles I had with my teachers. I had a bad time in school to get to the end of formal education, and I have to say that doesn't sound very good, but I did. I had a pretty grim time. And one of the reasons for the grim time was my refusal to give this up, this...	我现在知道为什么了——这听起来极其荒谬—— 我从言语上体验到了一种华美，我从来没有失去和这种华美的联系，尽管我和老师们经历了无数的斗争。为了读完正规教育，我曾经在学校里有过一段很糟糕的时期，我不得不说这听起来真的不怎么样，但我确实如此。我度过了一段相当糟糕的时光。之所以糟糕的原因之一就是我拒绝放弃这种联系，这...... 克：没错，船上的小猫。
48:22	K: Quite, the Pussy Cat in the boat.	安：事实就是在同一艘船上有一只鸟和一只猫，
48:24	A: The fact that there's a bird and a cat in the same boat. And the man is describing what you called act, movement, in which truth, and beauty, and so on, move along. Oh, goodness.	作者描述了你所说的行动、活动，其中有真相、美等等，一起出发。哦，天。克：先生，我认为我们应该，在讨论到这点后，
48:43	K: Sir, I think we ought to, after coming up to this point, we ought to go very deeply again into the question of meditation. A: Yes.	应该再次深入探究冥想的问题。安：好的。克：因为宗教，
48:57	K: Because religion, in the sense we are talking about, and meditation go together. That means religion isn't just an idea, but is actual conduct in daily life. Your thoughts, your speech, your behaviour is the very essence of religion. You understand, sir? If that doesn't exist, religion can't exist. It's just words, you can go around spinning a lot of words, go to various circus tents. But that's not religion. So, after establishing that deeply in oneself and the understanding of religion, then the next thing is: what is meditation? That is of tremendous importance, because meditation is something that is really, if it is understood properly, is the most extraordinary thing that man can have. Meditation is not divorced from daily life.	我们所讨论的宗教和冥想是并行的。这意味着宗教并不只是一个概念，而是我们日常生活中一种很真实的行为，你的思想、你讲的话、你的行为正是这种宗教的本质。你了解吗，先生？如果这些不存在，那么宗教就不可能存在，它就只是言语而已，你可以围绕着这些词打转，去各种马戏帐篷听演讲。但那并不是宗教。因此，在自己内心深处建立了这一点，并且了解了宗教之后，那么接下来的事情就是：什么是冥想？这极其重要，因为冥想真的是，如果它被正确理解的话，它是人类所能拥有的最非凡的东西。冥想并不是与日常生活相分离的。安：刚闪过我脑海的是
50:24	A: What was running through my mind was, that the root relation to the word 'medesti', 'medeo'...	冥想和“medesti”、“medeo”这些词在词根上的关系...... 克：'medeo'就是去思考、去沉思、去探究。
50:36	K: 'Medeo' is to think, to ponder, to go into.	安：......在《荷马史诗》中，它实际上含有
50:42	A: ...in Homer, it actually carries the idea of 'to provide for' in the sense of to care for. Very beautiful. It brings up the question that you raised earlier of true care. K: Yes, sir.	“供给”的含义，有关怀的意思。非常的美。这就引出了你早前提出过的一个有关真正关怀的问题。克：是的，先生。安：一个人并没有在冥想，除非他......
51:05	A: That one is not meditating unless he is...	克：......很细心。安：......细心、关怀。
51:09	K: ...careful. A: ...careful and caring.	克：关怀比细心更贴切，没错。安：是的。
51:12	K: Caring rather than careful, yes. A: Yes. It's all there in the word, but we won't have a look. Yes, please go on.	都涵盖在这个词里了，但是我们都不愿去看一看。是的，请继续。克：你看，当我们把行为从宗教中分离出来，
51:29	K: You see, when we have divorced conduct from religion, which we have, divorced relationship from religion, which we have, divorced death from religion, which we have, divorced love from religion, when we have made love into something sensuous, something that is pleasurable, then religion, which is the factor of regeneration, disappears in man. And that's why we are so degenerate. And if I may be very emphatic, unless you have this quality of the mind that is really religious, degeneracy is inevitable. You follow, sir? Look at the politicians who are supposed to be the rulers, the guides, the helpers of the people - they are degenerate. You see what is happening, in this country and everywhere. They are so corrupt. And they want to bring order. They are so irreligious. They may go to church, Baptists, or whatever they are, and yet they are really irreligious, because they don't behave. So man is becoming more and more degenerate. You can see it, sir. Because religion is the factor that brings a new quality of energy. It is the same old energy, but it has become a new quality. So the brain doesn't degenerate. As we get older, we tend to degenerate. But it doesn't, because it is the freedom... from every kind of security of the 'me'. It has no place.	我们就是这么做的，把关系从宗教中分离出来，我们就是这么做的，把死亡从宗教中分离出来，我们就是这么做的，把爱从宗教中分离出来，当我们把爱变成了感官上的事情、令人愉悦的东西，那么宗教，这个重生的因素，就会在人身上消失。那就是为什么我们是如此地堕落。如果我可以把话说得重一点，除非你拥有这种品质的心灵 ——那才是真正的宗教——否则堕落是不可避免的。你明白吗，先生？看看那些政客，他们理应是人民的管理者、向导和帮手 ——但他们是腐朽的。你看看在这个国家和世界各地正在发生的一切，他们是如此腐败。而他们却想带来秩序。他们毫无宗教精神，也许他们会去教堂、去浸信会等等，然而实际上他们真的没有宗教精神，因为他们没有端正行为。因此人类正变得越来越堕落。你能看到这一点，先生。因为宗教是能带来一种新的能量品质的因素，是原有的同一些能量，但具有了一种新的品质。因此大脑不会退化。当我们变老时，我们会有退化的倾向。但是大脑不会，因为它...... 从“我”的各种安全感中解脱出来了，不存在这些了。安：我在昨天的课堂上注意到了这点，就是你刚才在说的
53:54	A: I noticed this in class yesterday with this business about energy that you are just talking about. There was a quickening...	有关能量的事情。有一种加快...... 克：是的，先生。安：......发生了。
54:03	K: Yes, sir. A: ...that took place. There was at the end of the class, and it was strenuous because of this terrible hesitation. But even so, there was a release of energy, which has nothing to do with entertainment at all, people running to get their minds off themselves, as they say, which, of course, is nonsense, because they are just grinding themselves into themselves some more with it. But in this particular case there was empirical demonstration of what you are saying. Something that is out there. It's to be seen. It's observable.	在上课快结束的时候，整个气氛很紧张，因为有那种可怕的犹豫。但即使如此，还是有一种能量的释放，这种释放和娱乐毫无关系，人们急于把心思从自己身上拉开，正如他们说的，那当然是很荒谬的，因为他们只是在让自己把心思越来越集中在自己身上而已。但在这个特定的事件里，有对你所说的话的一种实证。有些东西就在那儿，它是可以看到的，是可以观察的。克：对的，先生。安：去看，
54:51	K: That's right, sir. A: And behold, it sprung up like a green bay tree. Yes, please go on.	它像格林湾的一棵树一样迅速成长。是的，请继续。克：你看，先生，那就是为什么全世界的牧师们
55:01	K: You see, sir, that's why the priests throughout the world have made religion into something profitable, both the worshipper and the intermediary. It has become a business affair, intellectual business, or it has become really commercial, not only physically, but inwardly, deeply: do this and you will reach that.	把宗教变成了一种有利可图的东西，膜拜者和中间人都从中获利。它已经变成了一桩生意，一桩智力上的生意，或者变得非常商业化，不仅仅在物质上，在内在深处也是如此：这么做，你就会得到它。安：彻底的功利主义者。克：这就是商业。安：是的。
55:36	A: Utilitarian to the core.	克：因此，除非这一切结束，
55:38	K: Which is commercial. A: Yes.	否则我们就会越来越退化。
55:43	K: And so, unless this is put an end to, we are going to degenerate more and more. That's why I feel so immensely responsible - personally - tremendously responsible to the audience, when I talk, when I go to the various schools in India, I feel I am responsible for those children. You follow, sir? A: Yes, of course. I do. I certainly do. K: I say, 'For God's sake, be different. Don't grow up like that. Look'. I go into it very, very... you know, talk a great deal. And they begin to see. But the world is too strong for them. They have to earn a livelihood. They have to resist their parents who want them to settle down and have a good job, and marry, a house. You know, all that business. And the public opinion, and overpopulation, it is much too strong.	那就是为什么我感到有巨大的责任——就我个人而言—— 对观众有巨大的责任，当我演讲时，当我去印度的各个学校时，我感到我对那些孩子有责任。你明白吗，先生？安：是的，我当然明白。我当然明白。克：我说： “看在老天的份上，改变吧，不能像那样长大。去观察。” 我非常深入地探讨这些问题，非常......你知道，讲了很多很多。然后他们开始明白了。但是对于他们来说世界太强大了。他们必须谋生。他们得反抗父母，他们的父母希望他们安定下来并且有份好工作，然后结婚，有套房子。你知道，所有这些事。还有公众舆论以及人口过剩，这些都太强大了。安：“生命四阶段”这种传统的观念
56:50	A: The tremendous weight of that tradition of the four stages of life.	所带来的沉重负担。克：因此我说，让我们来搞清楚是不是存在几个“精英”
56:56	K: So I say, let us find out, if there are a few 'elite' - if I may use that word without any snobbery - let's create a few who really are concerned, a few teachers, few students. Even that becomes very difficult, because most teachers... they are not good at this or that and therefore become teachers. You know what they are. A: Yes. Oh, dear, yes.	——如果我可以不带任何势利的含义来使用这个词的话—— 让我们造就几个真正关心这些的人，几个老师、几个学生。连这都变得很困难，因为大多数老师...... 他们都是因为不擅长这个或者那个所以才成为老师的。你知道他们的实际情况。安：是的。哦，天，是的。克：因此，先生，一切都在和你作对。
57:41	K: So, everything, sir, is against you. Everything. The gurus are against you, the priests are against you, business people, the teachers, the politicians, everybody is against you. Take that for granted! They won't help you an inch. They want you to go their way. They've got their vested interest in all that.	一切。古鲁们反对你，牧师们反对你，商人、老师们、政客们，每个人都反对你。这是理所当然的！他们不会给你一丁点帮助，他们希望你走他们的路，他们已经在其中得到了他们的既得利益。安：是的，我很清楚地看到了这点。
58:17	A: Yes, I do see that with clarity. In our next conversation, do you think we could explore the activity of meditation within the context of all this horror...	我们下次的谈话，你认为我们能否探讨一下，在所有这些可怕的情况下冥想的活动...... 克：好的，我们就讨论它。安：哦，太棒了。
58:33	K: Yes, we will do it.
58:35	A: Oh, that's wonderful.