克里希那穆提 - 冥想与神圣的心

Krishnamurti Subtitles

SD74CA18 - 冥想与神圣的心
与艾伦·W·安德森博士的第十八次对话
美国，加利福尼亚，圣地亚哥
1974年2月28日

0:37	Krishnamurti in dialogue with Dr. Allan W. Anderson	克里希那穆提与艾伦·W·安德森博士的对话
0:42	J. Krishnamurti was born in South India and educated in England. For the past 40 years he has been speaking in the United States, Europe, India, Australia, and other parts of the world. From the outset of his life's work he repudiated all connections with organised religions and ideologies and said that his only concern was to set man absolutely unconditionally free. He is the author of many books, among them The Awakening of Intelligence, The Urgency of Change, Freedom From the Known, and The Flight of the Eagle. This is one of a series of dialogues between Krishnamurti and Dr. Allan W. Anderson, who is professor of religious studies at San Diego State University where he teaches Indian and Chinese scriptures and the oracular tradition. Dr. Anderson, a published poet, received his degree from Columbia University and the Union Theological Seminary. He has been honoured with the distinguished Teaching Award from the California State Universities.	J·克里希那穆提出生于南印度，然后在英国接受教育。在过去的40年里，他曾在美国、欧洲、印度、澳大利亚和世界其他地方进行演讲。从他终身事业的一开始，他就断绝了与组织化的宗教和意识形态的所有联系，并表明他唯一关注的就是让人类彻底地、无条件地自由。他出版了很多著作，其中包括《智慧的觉醒》，《转变的紧迫性》, 《从已知中解脱》以及《鹰的翱翔》。这是克里希那穆提和艾伦·W·安德森博士的系列对话之一。安德森博士是宗教学教授，在圣地亚哥州立大学教授印度和中国经文以及传统的神谕文化。安德森博士，是一位出版过诗作的诗人，从哥伦比亚大学和纽约协和神学院获得学位。他曾被加利福尼亚州立大学授予杰出教学奖。
1:49	A: Mr. Krishnamurti, we were discussing in our conversation last time, meditation. And just as we concluded you brought up the very beautiful analogy from the flowering of a plant, and it struck me that the order that is intrinsic to the movement of the plant as it flowers is a revelatory image of order that you have been discussing. And we were talking also about the relation of meditation to understanding and knowledge, a distinction that's very rarely made. Though in ordinary language we make the distinction, perhaps unwittingly. It's there. K: It's there.	安：克里希那穆提先生，在上一次谈话中我们一直在讨论冥想。而正当我们上次谈话结束时，你用植物开花作了一个优美的类比，这里很打动我的一点就是：当植物开花时，其生命运动所固有的秩序形象地揭示了你之前所讨论的那种秩序。而且我们之前也讨论了冥想和了解与知识之间的关系，人们很少对此进行区分。尽管在日常语言中我们也许不经意地做出了区分。区别确实存在。克：确实存在。
2:39	A: We have the two words, but to go into what the distinction is was something you were beginning to do. And perhaps we could... K: We could go on from there. Sir, we were talking, if I remember rightly, about control. And we said the controller is the controlled. And we went into that sufficiently. And when there is control there is direction. Direction implies will. Control implies will, and in the desire to control there is established a goal and a direction. Which means to carry out the decision made by will, and the carrying out is the duration of time, and therefore direction means time, control, will, and an end. All that is implied in the word 'control'. Isn't it? A: Yes.	安：虽然我们有两种措辞，但探究那种区别是什么是你一开始就要做的事情。那么或许我们能...... 克：我们能从这里继续。先生，如果我没记错的话，之前我们一直在讨论控制的话题。我们说控制者是被控制者。然后关于那一点我们进行了充分的讨论。当有了控制，就会有方向。方向意味着意志。控制暗示着意志的存在，而在想去控制的渴望里，就建立了一个目标和一个方向。那意味着去执行由意志作出的决定，而这种执行就是时间的持续，所以方向意味着时间、控制、意志以及一个目标。所有这些都蕴含在“控制”这个词当中。不是吗？安：是的。
4:11	K: So, what place has will in meditation and therefore in life? Or it has no place at all? That means there is no place for decision at all! Only seeing-doing. And that doesn't demand will, nor direction. You follow? A: Yes, I do.	克：所以，意志在冥想中进而在生活中具有什么位置？或者根本没有它的位置？那意味着决定根本就没有任何地位！只有看到——行动。而这不需要意志，也不需要方向。你明白吗？安：是的，我明白。
4:50	K: The beauty of this, sir, how it works out. When the mind sees the futility of control, because it has understood the controller is the controlled, one fragment trying to dominate other fragments, and the dominant fragment is a part of other fragments, and therefore it is like going around in circles - vicious circle - never getting out of it. So, can there be a living without control? Just listen to it, sir. Without will and without direction? There must be direction in the field of knowledge, agreed. Otherwise I couldn't get home, the place I live. I would lose the capacity to drive a car, ride a cycle, speak a language - all the technological things necessary in life. There, direction, calculation, decision in that field is necessary. Choice is necessary between this and that. Here, where there is choice there is confusion, because there is no perception. Where there is perception there is no choice. Choice exists because the mind is confused between this and that. So, can a life be led without control, without will, without direction that means time? And that is meditation! Not just a question, - an interesting, perhaps, a stimulating question - but a question, however stimulating, has no meaning by itself. It has a meaning in living.	克：这其中的美，先生，它是怎么发生作用的。当心智发现控制毫无意义，因为它懂得了控制者就是被控制者，一个片段试图去支配其他的片段，而占优势的片段只是其他片段的一部分，因此那就像在兜圈子 ——恶性循环——永远也出不来。所以，能不能有一种毫无控制的生活？请听听这个问题，先生。没有意志，也没有方向？在知识的领域里一定存在着方向，这点我们都赞同。否则我就回不了家，回不去我住的地方。我会失去开车、骑车、说话的能力 ——生活中一切必需的技术方面的事情。在那里，方向、计算、决定在那个领域是必需的。在两者之间进行选择是必需的。而这里，有选择出现的地方，就会出现困惑，因为没有洞察。有洞察的地方，就不存在选择。选择的存在是因为心智在彼此两者之间感到困惑。所以，生活可以没有控制、没有意志、没有意味着时间的方向吗？而那就是冥想！这不仅仅是一个问题， ——一个有趣的，或许有启发性的问题—— 但一个问题不管多么有启发性，它本身是没有任何意义的。但它在生活中是有意义的。
7:15	A: I was thinking about ordinary language usage again, as you were speaking. It's interesting that when we regard that somebody has performed an action that we call wilful, that this is an action that has been undertaken without understanding. K: Of course.	安：刚才你讲话的时候，我又在思考语言通常的用法。有趣的是，当我们认为某个人做了一个让我们认为是固执的行为，那么这个行为就是在没有了解的情况下进行的。克：是的。
7:42	A: So, in the very distinction between will as a word and wilful as an adjective we have a hint of this distinction. But I'd like to ask you, - even though we are talking about meditation - we did regard that knowledge, in its own right, does have a proper career. K: Of course.	安：所以，正是从“意志”这个词和 “固执的”这个形容词之间的区别，我们对于这种区别得到了一种暗示。但是我想问你， ——尽管我们正在讨论的是冥想—— 我们确实认为知识本身的确有一个适用范围。克：当然。
8:12	A: And we say that decision is referred to that, Choice is referred to that, and therefore will is operative there.	安：而且我们说决定就源于这一点，选择就源于这一点，因此意志在那里是起作用的。
8:21	K: And a direction, and everything.	克：还有方向等等的一切。
8:22	A: And a direction, and so on. So we are making a distinction here between will and its role in relation to the whole field of know-how...	安：还有方向，诸如此类。所以，我们这里是在区别意志以及它在整个专门技能领域中所扮演的角色......
8:37	K: Know-how, knowledge. A: ...yes, and the confusion that occurs when that activity, so necessary in its own right, is brought over into this. K: That's right.	克：专门技能，知识。安......是的，和当那种本身是如此必要的活动被带入这个领域时所产生的困惑。克：是的。
8:52	A: And then we can't do either of them, really.	安：然后我们其实两者都无法完成。
8:55	K: Then, that's just it. Therefore we become inefficient, personal.	克：然后，事情就是这样的。因此我们变得效率低下、自私。
9:01	A: But, you see, we don't think that. What we think is that we can be terribly efficient in knowledge and be what is called unspiritual. And be a success here and not be a success here. Whereas - if I understand you correctly - you don't fail in one or the other, you just fail, period. It's a total failure, if this confusion is made. You simply can't operate even well here, - no matter what it might look like in the short run.	安：但是，你知道，我们不那么认为。我们认为在知识的领域里我们能够极为高效，以及成为所谓的非宗教人士。在这里成为一个成功人士，而不在那里获得成功。然而——如果我正确地理解了你的话—— 你不是在这方面或那方面失败了，你就是失败了，句号。如果产生了困惑的话，那就是一种彻底的失败。你甚至在这里都无法良好地运转， ——不管在短期内那看起来会是什么样。
9:32	K: As long as you are not completely in order inside yourself.	克：只要你不能让你的内在彻底有序，你就无法良好运转。
9:40	A: Right. Exactly. So the very division that we make between inner and outer is itself a symptom...	安：是的，确实如此。所以，我们在内外之间所做的分割，那本身就是一个症状......
9:49	K: Of thought which has divided the outer and the inner.	克：表明思想划分了内在和外在。
9:54	A: Yes, yes. I hope you'll bear with me in going through that.	安：是的，是的。我希望你能耐心地和我一起探讨这些。
10:00	K: Yes, actually you are quite right. A: Because I know, in religious thought, - my academic discipline - this confusion... - well, the weight of it. K: I know.	克：是的，实际上你说得很对。安：因为我知道，在宗教思想里， ——在我的学术范畴内——这种困惑...... ——它的负担。克：我明白。
10:17	A: You feel... K: ...oppressed.	安：你感觉...... 克：......被抑制了。
10:19	A: And as soon as you begin to make a comment of any kind about it that is simply raising the question. The extreme rigidity and nervousness that occurs...	安：一旦你开始发表任何有关于它的评论，就会带来问题。出现的那种极度的僵硬和紧张......
10:32	K: Quite, quite. A: ...is dramatic. Yes. Yes.	克：是的，是的。安：......是非常剧烈的。是的。是的。
10:35	K: So, I'm asking, meditation covers the whole field of living, not one segment of it. Therefore, living a life without control, without the action of will, decision, direction, achievement. Is that possible? If it is not possible, it is not meditation. Therefore, life becomes superficial, meaningless. And to escape from that meaningless life we chase all the gurus, the religious entertainment, circuses - you follow? - all the practices of meditation. It has no meaning.	克：所以，我在问，冥想涵盖了生活的整个领域，而不仅仅是一部分。因此，过一种没有控制、没有意志行为、没有决定、方向、成就的生活，这可能吗？如果不可能，那就不是冥想。因此，生活变得肤浅、毫无意义。而为了逃避这毫无意义的生活，我们开始追随那些上师，那些宗教娱乐、马戏表演——你明白吗？—— 所有那些冥想练习。那些都是毫无意义的。
11:31	A: You know - of course you do - in the classical tradition we have a definition of will. We say that it's desire made reasonable.	安：你知道——你当然知道—— 在经典传统里，我们对意志有一个定义。我们说它是理性化的愿望。
11:46	K: Desire made reasonable.	克：理性化的愿望。
11:48	A: Now, of course, we've long since lost the idea of what the ancients meant against their contemplative background by the word 'reason'. We think it means calculation. But of course, that's not what the classical tradition means by 'reasonable'. It points rather to that order which isn't defined. And, if we understood that statement correctly, we'd be saying, will is the focus of desire without my focusing self-consciously.	安：现在，当然了，我们早已失去了古人用“理性”这个词在他们冥想的背景下所表达的含义。我们认为它意味着深思熟虑。但是当然，那并不是经典传统中 “理性”所代表的意思。相反，它指的是那种没有被限定的秩序。而且，如果我们能正确地理解那个说法，我们会说，意志是欲望的聚焦，而我自己并不需要有意识地集中注意力。
12:26	K: Yes, that's right. And watching desire to flower. And therefore watching the will in operation and let it flower, and as it flowers, as you are watching, it dies, it withers away. After all, it's like a flower: you allow it to bloom and it withers.	克：是的，没错。而是看着欲望绽放，进而观察意志的运转并让它绽放，随着它的绽放，当你观察它的时候，它就枯萎了，凋谢了。毕竟，它就像是一朵花：你允许它盛放，然后它就枯萎了。
12:47	A: It comes to be and passes away...	安：它出现了，然后就消失了......
12:49	K: Therefore if you are choicelessly aware of this movement of desire, control, will, focusing that will in action, and so on, let it... watch it. And as you watch it you will see how it loses its vitality. So there is no control. So, from that arises the next question which is: direction means space.	克：因此，如果你毫无选择地觉察到欲望、控制、意志以及在行动中集中意志力这些活动过程，等等诸如此类，让它......看着它。而当你看着它的时候，你会发现它是怎样失去活力的。所以不存在控制。所以，从那里就产生了下一个问题：方向意味着空间。
13:26	A: Yes, of course.	安：是的，当然。
13:28	K: It's very interesting what comes. What is space? Space which thought has created is one thing. Space that exists in heaven, - in the universe, space. There must be space for a mountain to exist. There must be space for a tree to grow. There must be space for a flower to bloom. So, what is space? And have we space? Or are we all so limited physically living in a little apartment, ittle houses, no space at all outwardly, and therefore, having no space, we become more and more violent. I don't know if you have watched of an evening when all the swallows are lined up on a wire. And how exact spaces they have in between, you follow, sir? Have you? A: Yes, I have.	克：接下来发生的事情很有趣。什么是空间？思想制造的空间是一回事。空间存在于天空中， ——在宇宙中，有空间。山峰一定要有空间才能存在。树木一定要有空间才能生长。花朵一定要有空间才能绽放。那么，什么是空间？我们有空间吗？或者我们的身体都被禁锢在一个小公寓里，一些小房子里，毫无外在的空间，而由于没有空间，我们因此变得越来越暴力。我不知道你是否观察过，傍晚的时候当所有的燕子排着队站在电线上时的情景。它们间隔的空间是多么精确，你明白吗，先生？你看到过吗？安：是的，我看到过。
14:46	K: It's marvellous to see this space. And space is necessary. And we have no space physically, more and more population, therefore more and more violence, more and more living together in a small flat, thousand people, crowded, breathing the same air, thinking the same thing, seeing the same television, reading the same book, going to the same church, believing the same thing. You follow? The same sorrow. The same anxiety. The same fears. My country - all that. So mind, and so the brain, has very little space. And space is necessary, otherwise I stifle! So, can the mind have space? And there will be no space, if there is a direction.	克：看到这个空间感觉真是非常棒。而空间是必不可少的。然而我们身体上没有空间，越来越多的人口，导致越来越多的暴力，越来越多的人挤在一个小公寓里一起生活，上千个人，拥挤在一起，呼吸着同样的空气，思考着同样的事情，看着同样的电视节目，阅读着同样的书籍，去着同样的教堂，信奉着同样的信仰。你明白吗？同样的悲伤，同样的焦虑，同样的恐惧。我的国家——诸如此类的事情。所以心智，所以大脑都只有很小的空间。而空间是必不可少的，否则我就会窒息！所以，心灵能拥有空间吗？而如果存在一个方向的话，就不会有空间。
16:01	A: Clearly, yes.	安：无疑是这样的。
16:03	K: You see, sir? A: Of course. Yes, I do.	克：你明白吗，先生？安：当然，是的，我明白。
16:06	K: There is no space, if direction means time. And when mind is occupied - with family, with business, with God, with drink, with sex, with experience - occupied, filled, there is no space.	克：如果方向意味着时间的话，那就没有了空间。而当心灵被占据 ——被家庭、生意、上帝、吃喝、性爱、体验——所占据、填满，就没有了空间。
16:37	A: That's right. Exactly.	安：是的，确实是这样。
16:38	K: So, when knowledge occupies the whole field of the mind as thought, there is no space. And thought creates a space around itself as the 'me' enclosed, and you enclosed, we and they. So, the self, the 'me', which is the very essence of thought, has its own little space. And to move out of that space is terror, is fear, is anxiety, because I am only used to that little space.	克：所以，当知识作为思想占据整个心灵领域时，就没有了空间。然后思想会围绕自己建造一个空间，那就是封闭的“我”，封闭的你、我们和他们。所以，自我、“我”，正是思想的本质，它拥有属于自己的一点空间。而离开那个空间是令人恐惧、令人害怕、让人焦虑的，因为我只习惯于那个狭小的空间。安：是的，确实如此。
17:38	A: Yes, exactly. That brings us back to an earlier conversation we had when we touched on the point of terror.	这又把我们带回到了我们先前的谈话，当时我们谈到了恐惧的问题。克：是的，没错。
17:45	K: Yes, that's right. Not being, and the being is in the little space which thought has created. So thought can never give space.	不存在，或者存在都是在思想制造的狭小空间里。所以思想绝不会带来空间。安：是的，不会。
18:04	A: Of course, not.	克：所以，冥想是使心智摆脱其内容，
18:06	K: So, meditation is the freeing of the mind of its content as consciousness which creates its own little space. You follow, sir? A: Yes, I do.	也就是摆脱创造它自身狭小空间的意识。你明白吗，先生？安：是的，我明白。克：所以，从那里它问道，那可能吗？
18:27	K: So, from that it says, is that possible? Because I'm occupied with my wife, my children, my responsibilities, I care for the tree, I care for the cat, for this and that, and I'm occupied, occupied, occupied.	因为我被我的妻子、我的孩子、我的责任所占据，我照看树木，我养猫，我关心这个，关心那个，所以我一直被占据着，占据着。安：这很好地阐明了耶稣的话，
18:48	A: This throws a marvellous light on that saying of Jesus which people have wondered about and thought it was very strange: 'Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the son of man hath not where to lay his head'. Man as such, who grasps himself, understands, is not inventing a space for himself. It fits perfectly. That's marvellous!	人们一直对那段话感到疑惑并且觉得它很奇怪： “狐狸拥有洞穴，而天上的鸟儿们拥有鸟巢，但是人类的孩子连搁脑袋的地方都没有”。人类确实如此，他们领会自身，了解世事，但并没有为自己创造出一个空间。这句话在这里非常契合。真是太不可思议了！克：我不知道耶稣说了什么...... 安：是的，我理解，
19:29	K: I don't know what... A: No, I understand, but I was thinking in the context of the whole discourse. It just flashed over me. And our conversations have been such a revelation to me with respect to the literatures that I've soaked myself in for so many years. And it's a demonstration to me of what you've said. For instance, in so far as... I ask these questions of myself personally, precisely as they become answered... K: Quite, sir.	但我刚才一直在思考这整段论述的上下文。我是突然想到的。而我们的对话对我来说真的是一种启示，能帮助我理解我这么多年来一直沉浸其中的文献。而且这对我来说也是你之前所说的话的一种证明。比如，只要...... 我自己就会问我自己这些问题，就在它们逐渐得到解答的过程中...... 克：是的，先生。安：......所以这里的一切都得到了解答。
20:05	A: ...so all these things out here become answered. And what could be more empirically demonstrable to an individual that 'I am the world and the world is me' than that.	而且对于个人来说更能凭经验证明的就是“我就是世界，世界就是我”。克：是的，先生。安：我所做的就是
20:16	K: That's right, sir. A: All I am doing is giving a report of the journey without direction. K: So, sir, look. The world is getting more and more overpopulated. Cities are growing more and more, spreading, spreading, suburbs, and so on. Man is getting less and less space and therefore driving out animals, killing. You follow? A: Oh, yes, yes, yes.	对这场旅行进行一次没有倾向的描述。克：所以，先生，你看，世界人口过剩的情况越来越严重。城市变得越来越多，一直在扩张，扩张到了郊区等等。人们得到的空间越来越少，因此一直在驱赶动物，残杀动物。你明白吗？安：哦，是的，是的，是的。克：杀害美国的印第安人，
20:41	K: Killing the American Indians, killing the Indians in Brazil, and so on. They are doing this, actually, it is going on. And having no space out there, outwardly - except on occasions I go off into the country and say to myself, 'My God, I wish I could live here'. But I can't because I've got... etc. So, can there be space inwardly? When there is space inwardly, there is space outwardly.	杀害在巴西的印第安人等等。他们在这么做，事实上，那就在发生着。而因为外在没有了空间 ——除了有时我走到乡下，然后对自己说，“我的天，我希望我能住在这里”。但是我不能，因为我得......等等。所以，内在能有空间吗？当内在有了空间，外在就会有空间。安：没错。
21:21	A: Exactly.	克：但外在的空间
21:22	K: But the outward space is not going to give the inner space. The inner space of mind that is free from occupation, though it is occupied at the moment with what it has to do, it is occupied but free: the moment it is finished, it is over! I don't carry the office to my home. It's over! So, space in the mind means the emptying of consciousness of all its content, and therefore the consciousness, which thought as the'me' has created, ends, and therefore there is space. And that space isn't yours or mine. It's space. You follow?	是不会带来内在空间的。心灵的内在空间是从占据中解脱，即使当时它被必须要处理的事所占据，它被占据着但却是自由的：一旦事情完成了，占据就结束了！我不会把公事带回家。它已经结束了！所以，心中的空间意味着清空意识所有的内容，因此，思想即“我”所制造的意识，它结束了，所以就有了空间。而那空间并不属于你或者我。它就是空间。你明白吗？安：是的，是的。我在思考
22:21	A: Yes, yes, I was thinking of the creation story in Genesis. The appearance of space occurs when the waters are separated from the waters and we have the vault now over which the birds fly, and this space is called heaven.	《创世纪》里的创世故事。空间的出现是发生在当水体分开的时候，然后我们有了现在的穹顶，鸟儿从上面飞过，这部分空间被称为天空。克：那就是天空。安：那就是天空。
22:53	K: It is heaven. A: It is heaven.	克：是的。安：是的，是的，当然！
22:54	K: That's right. A: Yes, yes. Of course! But then we read that, you see, and we don't...	但是后来我们读到那些，你看，我们不...... 克：幸运的是我没有读那些东西。
23:01	K: Fortunately, I don't read any of those things.	克：所以，空间、方向、时间、意志、
23:06	K: So, space, direction, time, will, choice, control - you understand, sir? Now, all that has importance in my living, in the daily living of my life, of every human being. If he doesn't know the meaning of meditation, he merely lives in that field of knowledge and therefore that becomes a prison. And therefore being in prison he says, I must escape through entertainment, through gods, this and that, through amusement. That is what is actually taking place.	选择、控制——你明白吗，先生？而那一切在我的生活中很重要，在我、在每个人的日常生活中都很重要。如果一个人不理解冥想的意义，他就只不过是活在那个知识的领域里，因此那里变成了一个监狱。而由于身处牢狱，于是他说，我一定要通过娱乐、通过神明、通过这个和那个、通过消遣来逃脱。这就是实际发生的事情。安：“度假（空出）”这个词...... 克：度假（空出），是的。
23:50	A: The word 'vacation'... K: Vacation, that's right.	安：......就说明了这一切，不是吗？
23:54	A: ...says it all. Doesn't it?	克：当然是。
23:56	K: Absolutely.	安：度假（空出）就是离开然后进入到空间中去。
23:58	A: To vacate is to exit into space. But then we go from one hole to another.	然而我们却从一个困境走到另一个困境。克：到另一个困境。安：是的。
24:09	K: To another hole. A: Yes.	克：如果我能在自己身上清楚地认识到那一点的话，
24:12	K: If that is clearly perceived in myself, I see the thing operating in my daily life, then what takes place? Space means silence. If there is no silence, there is direction, it is the operation of will, 'I must do, I must not do, I must practise this, I must get this' - you follow? The should be, should not be, what has been, what should not be, I regret. All that operates. Therefore space means silence inwardly.	我会发现这件事就在我日常生活中发生着，然后会发生什么？空间意味着寂静。假如没有寂静的话，就会存在方向，这就是意志的运作，“我一定要做，我一定不能做，我一定要练习这个，我一定要得到这个”——你明白吗？应该如何，不应该如何，已经如何，不该如何，为此我感到遗憾。那一切都在运作。因此空间意味着内心的寂静。安：这很深刻。非常，非常深刻。
24:56	A: That's very deep. Very, very deep. Archetypally we associate manifestation as over against latency with sound.	最典型的是我们把寂静的表现形式联想成潜在声音的对立面。克：是的，声音。
25:10	K: Yes, sound.	安：而你所说的话让这整件事......
25:13	A: And what you have said puts the whole thing...	克：寂静并不是
25:17	K: Silence isn't the space between two noises. Silence isn't the cessation of noise. Silence isn't something that thought has created. It comes, naturally, inevitably, as you open, as you observe, as you examine, as you investigate. So, then the question arises: silence without a movement. Movement of direction, movement of thought, movement of time. All silence. Now, can that silence operate in my daily life? I live in the field of noise as knowledge. That I have to do. And, is there a living with silence and, at the same time, the other? The two moving together, two rivers flowing. In balance, not division - you follow? - in harmony. There is no division. Is that possible? Because otherwise, if that's not possible, to be deeply honest, I can only live there, in the field of knowledge. I don't know if you see? A: Oh yes, yes.	两个噪音之间的空间。寂静不是噪音的终止。寂静也不是思想制造出来的东西。当你保持开放的时候，当你观察、审视、探究的时候，寂静就自然而然地、必然地出现了。所以，问题出现了：不带任何运动的寂静， ——有方向的运动，思想的运动，时间的运动。一切都很寂静。那么，寂静能在我的日常生活中运行吗？我活在知识这类噪音的世界里。我不得不那么做。然而，是否存在一种寂静的生活同时还能拥有那另一种东西？这两者一起运动，两条河一起流动。处于平衡，没有分裂——你明白吗？—— 和谐共存。不存在分裂。那可能吗？因为反过来，如果那不可能的话，说实话，我就只能生活在那里，生活在知识领域里了。我不知道你是否理解了？安：哦，是的，我理解。克：所以，对我来说那是可能的。
26:57	K: So, for me it is possible. I am not saying that out of vanity, I say this in great humility, I say that is possible. It is so. Then what takes place? Then what is creation? Is creation something to be expressed in paint, in poem, in statue, in writing, in bringing about a baby? Is that creation? Does creation need... must it be expressed? To us it must be expressed - to most people. Otherwise one feels frustrated, anxious: I am not living. You follow? All that. So, what is creation? One can only answer that if one has really gone through all this. You understand, sir? Otherwise creation becomes a rather cheap thing.	我并不是出于虚荣才那样说的，我是以非常谦卑的态度说的，我说那是可能的。就是这样。然后会发生什么？那么创造是什么？创造是表现在绘画、诗歌、雕塑、写作、生孩子中的东西吗？那是创造吗？创造需要......创造一定要被表达出来吗？对我们来说它一定要被表达出来——对于大多数人来说。否则一个人会觉得受挫、焦虑：我没有活着。你明白吗？诸如此类的事情。那么，创造是什么？一个人只有弄清楚了这一切，才能回答这个问题。你明白吗，先生？否则创造就变成了一件相当廉价的东西。安：是的，从“表现出来（ex-pressed)”这个词来看，它就变成了
28:12	A: Yes, it becomes, in terms of the word 'expressed', simply something pressed out. K: Pressed out, of course.	挤出来的某种东西。克：挤出来的，是的。安：就是这样。克：就是这样。
28:18	A: That's all. K: That's all. Like the literary people who - some of them - are everlastingly in battle in themselves, tension and all that, and out of that they write a book, become famous.	就像那些文人——他们中有些人—— 永远在与自己作斗争，感到紧张不安等等，他们因此而写书，成名。安：是的，心理学理论认为那些艺术作品
28:33	A: Yes, the psychological theory that works of art are based on neurosis, which means I am driven.	是以神经质为基础的，那意味着我的创作是被动的。克：是的，所以什么是创造？
28:39	K: Yes, so what is creation? Is it something... a flowering, in which the flower does not know that it is flowering.	它是不是一种...... 一种绽放，而花朵并不知道它在绽放。安：的确，的确是这样。克：我表达清楚了吗？
29:08	A: Exactly, exactly. K: Have I made it clear?	安：是的，你表达得非常清楚。
29:10	A: Yes, you've made it very clear. All through our conversations the one word that has, for me, been like the clean blade of a two edged sword, has been this word 'act'. K: Yes, sir.	贯穿在我们这些对话之中，有一个词对我来说就像一把双刃剑那光亮的刀刃，那就是“行动”这个词。克：是的，先生。安：但不是和“不行动”相对立的行动。克：是的，不是那样。
29:30	A: But not act over against inaction. K: No, no.	安：是的，不是
29:38	A: No, not action as over against the philosophical term of its opposite, passion, - which is a different use from the one you were using in our conversations. But sheerly act. K: Act.	与它哲学术语上的对立面相反的行动，热情， ——那种用法与你在我们对话中的用法不同—— 而是全然的行动。克：行动。安：全然的行动。
29:56	A: Sheerly act.	克：所以，先生，看看会发生什么。
29:59	K: So, sir, see what takes place. Creation in my living. You follow, sir? Not expressing, creating a beautiful chair, that may come, that will come, but in living. And from that arises another question, which is really much more important: thought is measure. And as long as we cultivate thought, - all our actions are based on thought, as it is now - the search for the immeasurable has no meaning. I can give a meaning to it, say, 'There is the immeasurable, there is the unnameable, there is the eternal, don't let us talk about it, it is there'. It has no meaning. That is just a supposition, a speculation, or the assertion of a few who think they know. One has discarded all that. Therefore one asks, when the mind is utterly silent, what is the immeasurable? What is the everlasting? What is the eternal? Not in terms of God, all these things man has invented. Actually, to... , to be that. Now, silence, in that deep sense of that word, opens the door. Because you've got there all your energy. Not a thing is wasted. There is no dissipation of energy at all. Therefore in that silence there is summation of energy. Not stimulated energy, not self-projected energy, that's all too childish. Because there is no conflict, no control, no reaching out or not reaching, searching, asking, questioning, demanding, waiting, praying - none of that. Therefore,all that energy, which has been wasted, is now gathered in that silence. That silence has become sacred. Obviously. A: Of course, it has.	我生活中的创造。你明白吗，先生？那不是表达，不是造出一把美观的椅子，那可能会发生，那会发生，但我们说的是生活中的创造。从这里就出现了另一个问题，一个实际上更为重要的问题：思想就是量度。而只要我们培养思想， ——我们所有的行动都以思想为基础，就像现在这样—— 那么探寻那不可衡量者就没有意义。我能赋予它一个意义，说“存在着不可衡量之物，存在着无法命名之物，存在着永恒，我们不要讨论它了，它就在那儿。” 可这么说丝毫没有意义。那只是个猜测，是一种推断，或者是自以为知道的少数人的主张。你已经丢弃了那一切。所以你问，当心灵完全寂静，那不可衡量者是什么？永恒是什么？不朽是什么？不是所谓的上帝，所有那些人类发明的东西。而是实实在在地......成为那种东西。而寂静，在这个词深层的意义上，打开了这扇门。因为你已经拥有了你所有的能量，丝毫没有浪费任何东西，不存在能量的丝毫浪费。因此在那种寂静里，能量汇聚在了一起。不是被激发出来的能量，不是自己投射出来的能量，那一切都太幼稚了。因为不存在冲突，不存在控制，不向外伸手，也没有任何求取、寻找、请求、询问、索要、等待、祈祷——这些都没有。因此所有那些能量，那些被浪费的能量，现在都在寂静中汇集起来。于是那寂静就变得神圣。显然如此。安：是的，是这样。克：但不是思想发明出来的所谓神圣的东西。
33:20	K: Not the sacred thing which thought has invented.	安：没错，不是与世俗对立的神圣。
33:24	A: No, not the sacred over against the profane.	克：不是，都不是。
33:26	K: No, not all that.	克：所以，只有如此神圣的心灵
33:28	K: So, only such a sacred mind can see the most supreme sacred, the essence of all that is sacred, which is beauty. You follow, sir? A: I do.	才能发现那至高无上的神圣，那一切的本质就是神圣的，那就是美。你明白吗，先生？安：我明白。克：所以，就是这样。
33:43	K: So, there it is. God isn't something that man has invented or created out of his image, and longing, and failure. But when the mind itself becomes sacred, then it opens the door to something that is immeasurably sacred. That is religion. And that affects the daily living, the way I talk, the way I treat people, the conduct, behaviour - all that. That is the religious life. If that doesn't exist, then every other mischief will exist, however clever, however intelligent - all that.	神并不是人类虚构出来的或根据自身的形象、渴望和失败而制造出来的东西。而是当心灵本身变得神圣，它就打开了那扇通往无限神圣的大门。那就是宗教。而那会作用于日常生活，影响我说话的方式，我待人的方式，影响行为、举止——诸如此类。那就是宗教生活。如果那不存在的话，那么所有其他伤害都将存在，不管你有多机灵，不管你有多聪明——诸如此类。安：而冥想不会发生在
34:43	A: And meditation does not occur in the context of all this disorder.	这一片混乱的背景下。克：不会。安：绝对不会。
34:51	K: No. A: Absolutely not. But in its ongoingness, the way you have mentioned it, one is precisely in that, where what your word 'religious' is pointing to.	但是在它发生的过程中，也就是你之前提到过的方式，一个人恰恰是处于其中的，处于你用“宗教”这个词所指向的事物之中。克：那就是意义最深远的宗教生活的方式。
35:11	K: That is the most profound religious way of living. You see, sir, what takes place - another thing. As this thing is happening, because your energy is being gathered - not yours - energy is being gathered, you have other kind of powers, extra sensory powers, you can do miracles - which has happened to me - exorcise, etc., and healing, but they become totally irrelevant. Not that you don't love people, on the contrary, religion is the essence of it! But they are all secondary issues. And people get caught in the secondary issues. Look at what has happened: man who really can heal, he becomes... people worship him! - a little healing.	你看，先生，发生了什么——另一件事。随着这件事的发生，因为你的能量被汇集在一起 ——不是你的——能量被汇集在一起，你就拥有了另一些能力，超感能力，你可以创造奇迹 ——那曾经在我身上发生过—— 驱邪等等，还有疗愈，但它们会变得完全不重要。并不是你不爱世人，恰恰相反，宗教就是爱的本质！但它们全都是次要的问题。而人们会陷在这些次要问题里。看看发生了什么：一个真的有治愈能力的人，他变得...... 人们会崇拜他！——就因为一点点的疗愈能力。安：这让我想起了一个你曾经跟我说过的故事。
36:19	A: It reminds me of a story you told me once. It was a year ago: it was about the old man sitting on the banks of a river, and the young man came to him - after the older man had sent him away to undertake whatever he needed to learn all this - and he came back with a marvellous announcement that he could now walk on water. And you said that the older man looked at him and said, 'What's all that about? So you can walk on water. And you have taken all these years to learn how to walk on water. Didn't you see the boat over there?'	那是在一年前：它讲的是一个老人坐在河岸边，然后一个年轻人向他走来 ——在那个老人派他去从事他需要学习的一切之后—— 他回来时带来了一个惊人的消息 ——他现在能在水上行走了。你说那个老人看着年轻人，然后说 “这一切都是为了什么？你可以在水上行走，而你花了这些年的时间去学习怎样在水上行走。难道你没看到那里有条船吗？” 克：是那样的，先生。
37:05	K: That's right, sir. You see, sir, that's very important. Religion, as we said, is the gathering of all energy, which is attention. In that attention many things happen. Some of them have this gift of healing, miracles. I've had it and I know of which I'm speaking about. And the religious man never touches it. You follow? He may occasionally do this or that, but it is a thing to be put away, like a gift, like a talent. It is to be put away, because it is a danger!	你看，先生，那很重要。宗教，就如我们说的，是汇集所有的能量，那就是全然关注。许多事情就发生在那种关注里。他们中有些人拥有疗愈、创造奇迹的天赋。我也有过，我也知道我所说的是什么。但宗教人士从来不会碰这些东西。你明白吗？他可能偶尔做做这个或者那个，但那是一件要被抛在一边的事情，比如一项天赋，比如一项才华。它需要被摒弃，因为那是一种危险！安：确实是。克：因为你越是才华横溢，你就越“自我”，
38:01	A: Exactly.	“我很重要，我拥有这种才华，崇拜我吧”。
38:02	K: Because the more you are talented, the more 'me', 'I am important, I have this talent, worship me'. With that talent I'll get money, position, power. So this too is the most dangerous thing. So, a mind that is religious is aware of all this and lives a life...	拥有了这种才华，我就能得到金钱、地位、权力。所以这也是个最危险的事物。所以，一颗宗教心灵觉察到了这一切并且过着一种生活...... 安：......生活在这空间里，在这不可思议的空间里。
38:31	A: ...in this space, in this marvellous space. Something occurred to me about our discussion earlier concerning energy, and your remark that energy, when it patterns itself - I've forgotten what you used to designate what the patterned energy was, but I suspect it's what we often call matter.	我想起了一件事，有关我们之前关于能量的讨论，你说能量，当它让自己成形的时候 ——我忘了你之前把成形的能量叫做什么，但我猜想那就是我们通常所说的物质。克：物质，是的。安：对。
39:05	K: Matter, yes. A: Right. In terms of this pointing to act, it throws a very different light on patterned energy and draws our gaze away from the pattern and reminds us that the substance, or rather the substantive element the substantive element that we point to is not the pattern, but the energy.	对行动的这种说明，以一种非常不同的方式阐明了成形的能量，并将我们的注意力从形式引开，提醒我们关注本质，或者更确切地说是本质的要素，我们所指的本质要素并不是形式，而是能量。克：没错。你看，先生，
39:50	K: Quite. You see, sir, that is love, isn't it, sir? When there is this sense of religious summation of energy, that is love, that is compassion, and care, that operates in daily life.	那就是爱，不是吗，先生？当存在这种宗教能量的聚合的时候，那就是爱，那就是慈悲，还有关怀，那会在日常生活中发挥作用。安：在爱中，形式从不拒绝改变。
40:09	A: In love the pattern never resists change.	克：所以，你看，先生，
40:14	K: So, you see, sir, that love, you can do what you like, it will be still love. But, there, the love becomes sensation. In the field of knowledge. And therefore there is no love there.	那爱，你可以做你想做的事，但它仍然是爱。但是在那边，爱变成了感官感受，在知识的领域里。因此在那里不存在爱。安：是的，那个莱昂内尔火车的形象，
40:39	A: Yes, that image of the Lionel train, the toy that goes round and round and round. Isn't that extraordinary?	那一直转圈的玩具。这难道不是很了不起吗？克：你看，先生，那意味着，心灵可以
40:50	K: You see, sir, that means, can the mind - I'm using the word 'mind' in the sense, the brain, the body, the whole thing - can the mind be really silent? Not induced silence, not silence put together, not silence that thought imagines is silence. Not the silence of a church or the temple. They have their own silence, when you enter a temple or a...	——我用“心灵”这个词指的是，大脑、身体，这个整体—— 心灵可以真正安静下来吗？不是诱导出来的寂静，不是拼凑起来的寂静，不是那种思想想象出来的寂静。不是那种属于教堂或庙宇的寂静。它们拥有它们自己的寂静，当你进入一座庙宇或一座...... 安：噢，是的。克：......古老的大教堂。
41:28	A: Oh yes. K: ...old cathedral. They have an extraordinary sense of silence. Thousands of people chanted, talked, prayed, but it is above all that. It is not that either. So, this silence isn't contrived and therefore it is real. It isn't: 'I have brought about through practice a silence'.	它们给人一种特别安静的感觉。上千个人在那唱诵、讲话、祈祷，但寂静超越了那一切。寂静也不是那些。所以，寂静不是人为的，因而它是真实的。它不是：“通过练习，我已经使寂静发生了”。安：不是的，它不是你先前提到的那种介于两个噪音之间的空间。克：对。
42:02	A: No, it's not what you mentioned earlier, that space between two noises. K: That's right.	安：因为那会变成一种间隔。克：是的。
42:06	A: Because that would become an interval. K: That's right.	安：而作为一种间隔，它只会变得断断续续。
42:09	A: And as an interval it simply becomes successive.	克：断断续续，没错。
42:11	K: Successive. That's right.	安：我们总能回到问题上来，
42:21	A: This is extraordinary in terms of the continuing return to question. It seems to me that it's only in the attitude of the question, that there's any possibility for even intuiting from afar the possibility of the silence, since already the answer is a noise.	这点很了不起。在我看来，只有在问题本身所包含的态度中才有可能从远处就能凭直觉知道寂静的可能性，因为答案已经是一种噪音了。克：所以，先生，稍等一下，这里有件很有趣的事。
42:53	K: So, sir, just a minute, there is something very interesting. Does this come up through questioning?	这是通过提问才发生的吗？安：不是的，我并没有说
43:05	A: No. I didn't mean to suggest that questioning generates it. I meant that simply to take a step back from the enthralment and enchantment with answers is in itself a necessary step. K: Of course.	那是由提问产生的。我的意思仅仅是从沉迷中，从对答案的沉迷中后退一步就其本身而言是必要的。克：当然。安：而且那种沉迷本身就具有一种可怕的性质。
43:25	A: And that in itself has its own terror.	克：当然。但我问的是：寂静，
43:28	K: Of course. But I'm asking: is silence, is the sense of the immeasurable, does that come about by my questioning?	那种无限的感觉，是通过我的疑问到来的吗？安：不是的。克：不是。
43:41	A: No. K: No. Perception sees the false and discards the false. There is no question. It sees, and finished! But if I keep on questioning, I keep on doubting. Doubt has its place, but it must be kept on a leash!	洞察力看到了谬误，并舍弃了谬误。这里不存在问题，它看到了，然后就结束了！但是如果我一直提问，我就会一直怀疑。怀疑有它存在的位置，但那必须被加以约束！安：现在，如果可以的话，让我问你一个问题。
44:15	A: Now, let me ask you a question here, if I may. The act of perceiving is, as you have said, the doing. There's absolutely no interval between one...	洞察的行为，就像你之前说的，就是行动。间隔是绝对不会存在于一个人...... 克：我发现危险，于是我行动。安：于是我行动。的确是的。
44:36	K: I see danger and I act. A: And I act. Exactly. Now, in this perceiving, the act is totally free...	那么，在这种洞察里，行动是完全自由的...... 安：是的，先生。安：......而且每种能量形式
44:53	K: Yes, sir. A: ...and then every energy pattern is free to become changed.	是变换自如的。克：是的，没错，先生。安：是的，确实如此。
45:02	K: Yes, quite, sir. A: Yes, exactly. No more hoarding to itself...	不再自我囤积...... 克：不会感到遗憾。安：......那一切终其一生都在发挥作用。
45:09	K: No regrets. A: ...all that its worked for all its life. And amazingly though, it seems to me, there's a corollary to this. Not only is the pattern free to be changed, but the energy is free to pattern itself.	尽管那令人惊讶，但是对我来说，这是一个必然的结果。不仅形式可以变换自如，而且能量可以自由地成形。克：或者不成形。安：或者不成形，是的。
45:28	K: Or not to pattern. A: Or not to pattern, yes.	克：就是这样。知识必须成形显现。安：是的。
45:31	K: There it is. The knowledge has to pattern. A: Of course.	克：但是在这里它不能成形，为什么要成形？
45:35	K: But here it can't pattern, pattern for what? If it patterns, it has become thought again. And therefore thought is divisive, thought is superficial. I don't know if I told you the other day, somebody was telling me - Dr. Bohm, in fact - he was saying that in Eskimo language thought means the outside. Very interesting. The outside. When they say, 'Go outside', the word is 'thought'. So, thought has created the outer and the inner. If thought is not, then there is neither the outer, nor the inner. That is space. It isn't 'I've got inner space'.	如果成形了，它就又变成了思想。因此思想是分裂的，思想是肤浅的。我不知道前几天我是否和你说过，有人告诉我——博姆博士，实际上—— 他说在爱斯基摩语里，思想就是外面的意思。非常有趣。外面。当他们说 “出去”的时候，用的词就是“思想”。所以，思想制造了外在和内在。如果思想不在的话，那么就既没有外在，也没有内在。那就是空间。而不是“我获得了内在的空间”。安：不是的。
46:41	A: No. We've been talking about meditation in relation to religion, and I simply feel I must ask you to speak about the interrelationship of prayer to meditation, with meditation, because conventionally, we always refer to prayer and meditation.	我们一直都在讨论冥想与宗教的关系，而我就是觉得我必须要让你谈谈祈祷与冥想之间的相互关系，祈祷之于冥想的关系，因为按照惯例，我们通常会把祈祷和冥想放在一起来说。克：不是的。我不这样认为，在我看来，祈祷在冥想中没有位置。
47:06	K: No. I don't, to me prayer has no place in meditation. To whom am I praying? Whom am I supplicating? Begging? Asking?	我在向谁祈祷？我在恳求谁？乞讨？请求？安：祷告作为祈求... 在冥想中是没有位置的。克：祈求，是的。
47:22	A: A prayer as petition has no place in it. K: Petition, right.	安：“祈祷”这个词有没有一个用法
47:26	A: Is there any use of the word 'prayer' that would be consonant with what we've been talking about?	可能与我们一直所讨论的是一致的？克：如果不存在祈求，
47:40	K: If there is no petition, - you understand? - deeply, inwardly, there is no petition.	——你明白吗？——在内心深处没有祈求。安：没有巧取豪夺、贪得无厌。
47:47	A: No grabbing, grasping.	克：因为攫取者就是被攫取者！
47:49	K: Because the grabber is the grabbed!	安：确实如此。
47:51	A: Exactly.	克：如果不祈求，那会发生什么？
47:54	K: If there is no petition, what takes place? I petition only when I don't understand, when I'm in conflict, when I'm in sorrow, When I say, 'Oh, God, I've lost everything. I'm finished. I can't arrive. I can't achieve'.	我只在我不了解的时候才会祈求，在我处于冲突的时候，当我处于悲伤的时候，当我说，“哦，上帝，我失去了一切。我完蛋了，我达成不了，我无法成功”的时候。安：当没有祈求的时候，我就能去看了。
48:22	A: When there's no petition, I can look. Yes. Exactly.	是的。就是这样。克：前段时间，有一个女人来找我。
48:30	K: A woman came to me once, some time ago. She said, 'I have prayed, enormously, for years. And I have prayed for my refrigerator. And I have got it!' Yes, sir! I pray for peace. And I live a life of violence all the time. I say, 'I pray for my country' and I have divided the country, opposed to another country. And I pray for my country. It becomes so childish!	她说，“我做了很多祷告，祷告了好多年。我一直祈祷有个冰箱。然后我就得到了！” 是的，先生！我祈求和平。而我却一直过着充满暴力的生活。我说，“我为我的国家祈祷”，同时我划分了国家，与另一个国家对立。然后我为我的国家祈祷。那变得如此的幼稚！安：在传统的祈祷中通常同时存在着祈求与歌颂，
49:13	A: In conventional prayers there is usually both petition and praise, both are there. K: Of course. Praising and receiving. You must know, in Sanskrit it always begins - some parts of it - praising and then begging. There's a marvellous chant, which is asking protection of the gods. Protection. And it says, 'May you protect my steps'. A: Yes.	两者都有。克：是的。歌颂然后接受。你一定知道，在梵文里，祈祷总是一开始 ——它的某些部分——一开始歌颂，然后乞求。有一首很优美的唱诵，一首请求神明庇护的颂歌。庇护。里面说，“请你庇护我前进的脚步”。安：是的。克：赞美神，然后说请庇护我前进的脚步。
49:52	K: Praising God, then saying please protect my steps. So, if there is no petition, because the petitioner is the petition, the beggar is the begged, is the receiver, then what takes place in the mind? No asking.	所以，如果不存在祈求，因为祈求者本身就是祈求，乞讨者就是被乞求者，就是接受者，那么心灵中会发生什么？没有任何请求。安：一种无限的平静。
50:22	A: An immense quietude. Immense quietude. The proper sense of whatever the word 'tranquillity' points to. K: That's right, sir. That is real peace, not the phoney peace they are all talking about, politicians and the religious people. That is, no asking a thing.	无限的平静。 “宁静”这个词所指向的任何一种恰当的含义。克：是的，先生。那是真正的平静，而不是他们所有人都在谈论的虚假的平静，政客们以及那些宗教人士。那就是，不请求任何东西。安：圣经上有一句很美的话：
50:46	A: There is a very beautiful Biblical phrase 'The peace that passeth understanding'.	“传递领悟的平静”。克：当我还很小的时候就听过那句话了。
50:55	K: I've heard that phrase, when I was a small boy.	安：我自小就总是问自己
51:03	A: I've always asked myself since a child, how it's the case that there is so much talk about such a thing, and there's so little evidence of it.	这是怎么回事：为什么人们会大肆谈论这样一件事，然而却几乎没什么证明它存在的迹象。克：先生，
51:19	K: Sir, books have become tremendously important. What they have written. What they have said. And so the human mind has become second-hand. Or the mind that has acquired so much knowledge about what other people have experienced about reality, how can such a mind experience or find, or come up on that thing which is original?	书本已经变得极其重要了，它们所记述的，它们所说的内容。因此人们的心灵都变成了二手的。或者心灵获得了太多关于别人经历真相的知识，这样的心灵怎么能够体验或发现，或者遇到那种原创的东西呢？安：那条路行不通。克：没错，先生。
51:58	A: Not that route. K: No, sir. And can the mind empty itself of its content? If it cannot, it can only acquire, then reject, then receive. You follow? A: Yes.	那么心灵能清空它本身的内容吗？如果不能，那它就只能获得，然后拒绝，然后接受。你明白吗？安：明白。克：我为什么要经历这一切呢？
52:15	K: Why should I go through all those things? Why can't I say, 'Well, I'll look'. There is no book in the world that is going to teach me. There is no teacher that is going to teach me, because the teacher is the taught. The disciple is the teacher.	我为什么不能说，“好吧，我会看一看”。这世上没有一本书能够教导我。也没有一个老师能够教导我，因为老师就是被教导者，弟子就是老师。安：这本身就是一种声明：
52:39	A: That is in itself as a statement: - if one will, at the inception of looking, if one will 'hold' - that very statement: 'I am the world and the world is me' is an occasion for healing.	——在开始看的时候，如果一个人愿意，如果他愿意“留住”——这个说法： “我就是世界，世界就是我” 本身就是一个治愈的机会。克：是的，先生。安：但是这个说法，
53:06	K: Yes, sir. A: But that very statement, 'I am the world and the world is me' sounds, as you have said so often, so absurd that at that point one starts to bolt again. Panic again. Meditation, when undertaken as it must be, continuously, because we talked about that movement...	“我就是世界，世界就是我”听起来就像你常说的，是如此的荒谬，以致于人立刻又会开始抵制，又会开始惊慌。当冥想得以连续不断地进行时——它也必须如此—— 因为我们谈到了那种运动...... 克：那意味着一个人必须非常非常认真。
53:33	K: That means one has to be very, very serious. It isn't a thing we play with. A: No. It's not what's called these days a fun thing.	那不是一件儿戏的事。安：不是。那不是如今所谓的一件“好玩的事”。克：不是的，先生！安：绝不是。
53:43	K: No, sir! A: In no sense. No, no, no. The discussion that you have undertaken concerning it is so total. A meditation isn't a thing that you do among other things.	不，不，不是。关于它，你所进行的讨论是如此的全面。冥想不是你要去做的诸多事情中的一件，克：冥想意味着关注、关怀。
54:12	K: Meditation means attention, care. That's part of it - care for my children, for my neighbour, for my country, for the Earth - for the Earth! - for the trees, for the animals. Don't kill animals. You follow? Don't kill them to eat. It's so unnecessary! The tradition says, you must eat meat. Therefore, sir, all this comes to a sense of deep, inward seriousness, and that seriousness itself brings about attention, care, and responsibility, and all that we have discussed. It isn't that one has gone through all this, one sees it! And the very perception is action which is wisdom. Because wisdom is the ending of suffering. It isn't callousness, it's the ending of it. And the ending of it means the observation, the seeing of suffering. Not to go beyond it, to refuse it, rationalise it, or run away from it. Just to see it. Let it flower. And as you are choicelessly aware of this flowering, it comes naturally to wither away. I don't have to do something about it.	那是它的一部分——照料我的孩子，关心我的邻居、我的国家，关心地球——关爱地球！—— 关爱树木、动物。不杀害动物。你明白吗？不要为了吃而去杀害它们。那太没必要了！传统说，你一定要吃肉。因此，先生，这一切都涉及到一种深刻的、内心的认真，而这认真本身就会带来关注、关怀，还有责任，以及我们所讨论的一切。并不是说一个人必须要经历这一切，而是他看到了！而这洞察本身就是智慧的行动，因为智慧是苦难的终结。它不是麻木不仁，而是它的终结。而且这终结意味着对苦难的观察，对苦难的看清，而不是超越它、拒绝它、把它合理化或者逃避它。只是看到它，让它绽放。而当你毫无选择地觉察到这绽放时，它自然就会枯萎。我不必对它做任何事。安：不可思议的是，能量是怎样
56:07	A: Marvellous how energy can be free to pattern itself or not pattern itself. The pattern is free to be energised or... the whole thing is simply all round.	自由地成形或者不成形的。形式被自由地注入能量或者...... 这整件事无处不在。克：是的，先生，那包含了人类的所有努力，他的思想，他的渴望
56:28	K: Yes, sir. It covers the whole of man's endeavour, his thoughts, his anxieties - everything it covers.	——它涵盖了一切。安：所以，在我们的谈话里，我们一路走来，
56:38	A: So, in our conversations, all through, we have reached the point of consummation here, where it is round. I wonder if Shakespeare had some intimation of this, when he said, 'Ripeness is all'. He must have been thinking of that, not simply as setting a term to the career of fruit.	已经抵达了完美的终点，到这里就圆满了。我好奇莎士比亚对这一点是不是有些许暗示，因为他说，“成熟就是一切”。他一定已经思考过了那一点，而不仅仅是为水果的生长期设定一个期限。克：没错，先生，时间结束了，时间停止了。
57:12	K: No sir, time comes to an end, time stops. In silence time stops.	在寂静里，时间停止了。安：时间在寂静里停止了。
57:23	A: In silence time stops. Immensely beautiful. I must express to you my gratitude from the bottom of my heart. I hope you will let me. Because throughout the whole career of our discussions I have been undergoing a transformation.	非常美。我一定要向你表达我发自心底的感激之情。我希望你允许我这样做。因为经过我们讨论的这整个过程，我已经经历了一场转变。克：确实。因为你是如此乐意去倾听，
57:56	K: Quite. Because you are willing enough to listen, good enough to listen. Most people are not, they won't listen. You took the time, the trouble, the care to listen.	你人够好所以能够倾听。大多数人则不然，他们不愿意听。你花时间，不怕麻烦，用心倾听。安：我已经看到
58:12	A: I've already seen in my relation to my classes, in the activity my students and I share, the beginning of a flowering. K: Quite.	在我与我班上学生的关系中，在我和我的学生们共同分享的活动中，一种绽放开始了。克：是的。安：一种绽放开始了。克：确实。
58:25	A: The beginning of a flowering. K: Quite.	安：再次向你表示莫大的感谢，谢谢你，谢谢。
58:29	A: Thank you so much again. Thank you, thank you.