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SD74CA1 - 知识与人类的转化
与艾伦·W·安德森博士的第一次对话
美国，加利福尼亚，圣地亚哥
1974年2月18日



0:37 Krishnamurti in Dialogue with Dr. Allan W. Anderson 克里希那穆提与艾伦·W·安德森博士的对话
0:42 J. Krishnamurti was born in South India and educated in England. For the past 40 years he has been speaking in the United States, Europe, India, Australia, and other parts of the world. From the outset of his life's work he repudiated all connections with organised religions and ideologies and said that his only concern was to set man absolutely unconditionally free. He is the author of many books, among them The Awakening of Intelligence, The Urgency of Change, Freedom From the Known, and The Flight of the Eagle. This is one of a series of dialogues between Krishnamurti and Dr. Allan W. Anderson, who is professor of religious studies at San Diego State University where he teaches Indian and Chinese scriptures and the oracular tradition. Dr. Anderson, a published poet, received his degree from Columbia University and the Union Theological Seminary. He has been honoured with the distinguished Teaching Award from the California State University. J·克里希那穆提出生在南印度， 而后在英国接受教育。 在过去的40年里， 他曾在美国、 欧洲、印度、澳大利亚以及世界其他地方发表演讲。 在他毕生的事业刚刚开始的时候， 他就断绝了 与有组织的宗教和意识形态的所有关系， 并说他唯一关心的是 让人获得绝对的、无条件的自由。 他著有多本著作， 如《智慧的觉醒》、 《转变的紧迫性》、 《从已知中解脱》和《鹰的翱翔》等。 这是克里希那穆提与艾伦·W·安德森博士的 系列对话之一。 安德森博士是圣地亚哥州立大学 宗教研究学的教授， 讲授印度和中国的经文 以及传统的神谕文化。 安德森博士，是一位有诗作出版的诗人， 从哥伦比亚大学 和纽约协和神学院获得了学位。 他曾经获得 加州州立大学授予的 杰出教学奖。
1:48 A: Mr. Krishnamurti, I was very taken with a recent statement of yours, in which you said that it's the responsibility of each human being to bring about his own transformation, which is not dependent on knowledge or time. And if it's agreeable with you I thought it would be a splendid thing if we explored together the general area of transformation itself, and after we have done that, perhaps the other related areas would begin to fall into place and we could bring about in conversation a relationship among them. 安：克里希那穆提先生， 我对你近期的一个观点非常着迷， 你说，每一个人都有责任 带来他自身的转变， 这种转变是不依赖于知识或是时间的。 如果你觉得可以的话， 我认为 如果我们先一起探讨一下“转变”这件事情本身 的总体范畴，将会是很好的事情。 探讨完之后， 可能与此相关的其他方面 就会开始变得明朗起来， 然后，我们可以再来谈谈 这各个方面之间的关系。
2:31 K: Don't you think, sir, considering what's happening in the world, in India, in Europe, and in America, the general degeneration in literature, in art, and specially in the deep cultural sense, in the sense - religion... 克：先生，难道你不认为， 考虑到全世界正在发生的事情， 在印度、欧洲和美国， 在文学和艺术领域的普遍退化， 尤其是在深层次文化的意义上， 在宗教的意义上
3:04 A: Yes. 安：是的。
3:05 K: ...there is a traditional approach, a mere acceptance of authority, belief, which is not really the religious spirit. Seeing all this, the confusion, the great misery, the sense of infinite sorrow, any observant and most serious people would say that this society cannot possibly be changed except only when the individual, the human being, really transforms himself radically, that is, regenerates himself fundamentally. And the responsibility of that depends on the human being, not on the mass, or on the priests, or on a church, or a temple, or mosque, or whatever, but on a human being, who is aware of this enormous confusion, politically, religiously, economically, in every direction there is such misery, such unhappiness. And when you see that, it is a very serious thing to ask oneself whether a human being, like oneself or another, whether he can really deeply undergo a radical transformation. And when that question is put to him and when he sees his responsibility in relation to the whole, then perhaps we can discuss what relationship has knowledge, and time, in the transformation of man. 克：……探究这些问题，有一种传统的方式， 一种对权威、信条的单纯接受， 那并不是真正的宗教精神。 看到了这所有的一切，这困惑， 这极大的苦难， 和无止境的悲伤， 任何善于观察和极其认真的人都会说， 这个社会不可能被改变， 除非每一个人，整个人类， 从根本上真正地改变他自己， 也就是说，彻底让自己重生。 而这项责任， 有赖于人类自身，不是弥撒， 也不是神父，或者教堂、庙宇， 以及清真寺之类， 而是这责任就在每个人身上， 人们已经意识到了这巨大的混乱， 政治上、宗教上、经济上， 在每个方面都有如此深重的苦难， 如此巨大的不幸。 而当你看到了这一切， 一件很严肃的事情就是 要问问自己， 作为一个人，就像你自己或是其他人， 他能否真正深入地 经历一次根本的转变。 当他被问到这个问题， 当他看到了自己的责任 和整个人类的关系， 然后在此基础上我们就可以探讨 知识和时间 在人的转变中是什么关系了。
5:36 A: I quite follow. We need then to lay some groundwork in order to move into the question itself. 安：我明白你的意思。 那么我们需要先做一些基础的理解工作， 以便于能够进一步讨论这个问题本身。
5:44 K: Because most people are not concerned with the world at all. Most people are not concerned seriously with the events, with the chaos, with the mess in the world at present. They are only concerned very superficially: the problem of energy, problem of pollution, and so on, such superficial things. But they are really not deeply concerned with the human mind, the mind that is destroying the world. 克：因为大多数人 一点儿都不关心这个世界。 大多数人并没有认真地关注当今世界上发生的事件、 嘈杂和混乱。 他们只关心非常表面的事情： 能源短缺、环境污染等等， 诸如此类的表面问题。 但是他们真的没有深入地去关心 人类的心智， 这正在摧毁世界的心智。
6:25 A: Yes, I quite follow. What you have said places in a very cardinal way the radical responsibility on the individual as such, if I've understood you correctly.

K: Yes. 		安：是的，我明白你的意思。 你刚才所说的，十分着重地强调了 这个根本的责任就在每个个体身上， 如果我正确理解了你的意思的话。

克：是的。
6:38 A: There are no Five-Year plans that we can expect to help us out. 安：没有“五年计划”之类的东西， 我们可以指望用来帮助我们摆脱困境。
6:42 K: You see, the word 'individual' is really not a correct word, because individual, as you know, sir, means undivided, indivisible in himself. But human beings are totally fragmented, therefore they are not individuals. They may have a bank account, a name, a house, but they are not really individuals in the sense a total, complete, harmonious, whole, unfragmented. That is really what it means to be an individual. 克：你看，“个体”这个词 实际上并不正确， 因为“个体”这个词，先生，你知道， 意味着他本身是完整的、不可分割的。 但人类完全是支离破碎的， 因此他们并不是个体。 他们可能拥有自己的银行账户、名字、房子， 但他们不是这种意义上真正的个体： 在整体、完全、和谐、完整、不支离破碎，这个意义上。 那才是作为“个体”的真正含义。
7:17 A: Would you say then that to move, or make passage, or perhaps a better word simply would be 'change' since we are not talking about time, from this fragmented state to one of wholeness, which could be regarded as a change in the level of the being of the person. 安：那么，你会不会说，那种运动，或者建立一个通道， 或者有个更好的词，简单地说就是“改变” ——因为我们并没有说到时间—— 从这种碎片化的状态 到一个完满的状态， 这个过程，可以被看作是一个人存在层面上的转变。
7:40 K: Yes.

A: Could we say that? 		克：可以。

安：我们可以这样说吗？
7:42 K: Yes, but you see, again, the word 'whole' implies not only sanity, health, and also the word 'whole' means holy, h-o-l-y. All that's implied in that one word 'whole'. And human beings are never whole. They are fragmented, they are contradictory, they are torn apart by various desires. So, when we talk of an individual, the individual is really a human being who is totally, completely whole, sane, healthy, and therefore holy. And to bring about such a human being is our responsibility : in education, politically, religiously, in every way. And therefore it is the responsibility of the educator, of everybody, not just myself, my responsibility, it is your responsibility as well as mine, as well as his. 克：可以，但是你看，“完整”这个词的含义 并不仅仅是心智的健全、 身体的健康，“完整”这个词同时也意味着“神圣”。 所有这些意思，都包含在“完整”这一个词里面。 而人类从来都不完整。 人类支离破碎，自相矛盾， 他们被各种各样的欲望弄得四分五裂。 所以，当我们谈到个体的时候， “个体”实际上指的是 一个完全地、彻底地完整的人， 他是彻底健全的、健康的，因此是神圣的。 而造就这样的人类 是我们的责任：在教育、 政治、宗教等等各个方面。 因此，这也是教育者的责任， 每个人的责任，并不仅仅是我自己，我的责任， 这也是你的责任，也是我的责任、他的责任。
9:08 A: It's everyone's responsibility.

K: Absolutely, because we have created this awful mess in the world. 		安：这是每个人的责任。

克：绝对是的， 因为我们已经在这世上制造了如此糟糕的混乱局面。
9:15 A: But the individual is the one who must make the start. 安：但是个体必须去开这个头。
9:19 K: A human being, each human being. It does not matter whether he is a politician, or a businessman, or just an ordinary person like me, in the street, it's our business as a human being to realise the enormous suffering, misery, confusion there is in the world. And it's our responsibility to change all that, not the politicians, not the businessman, not the scientist. It's our responsibility. 克：人类的一员，每个人。 至于他是一个 政治家，还是一个商人， 或者他仅仅是大街上像我一样的一个普通人，这都不重要。 重要的是，作为人类， 我们必须意识到这世上有巨大的苦难、 不幸和混乱，这是我们的责任。 并且改变这所有的一切也是我们的责任， 而不是政治家、商人、 科学家的责任。这是我们的责任。
9:52 A: When we say 'our responsibility' and we have two uses of the word 'individual' now. There is the general use of it, meaning a quantitative measure... 安：当我们说“我们的责任”时， “个体”这个词就有了两种用法。 通常的用法是 一种数量上的量度
10:07 K: Yes, quantitative measure. 克：是的，量上的量度。
10:08 A: ...and then this qualitative reference that we simply needed, it seems to me, to discern as a possibility. I am reminded again of the statement that you made that I quoted earlier, that it is the responsibility of each, each human person. 安：……还有就是这种质上的考量， 在我看来，我们需要 把它作为一种可能性去了解。 这让我又想起了 你提到的一个说法，我之前也引用过， 那就是，这是我们人类每一个人的责任。
10:30 K: Human being, yes.

A: Right. 		克：人类的一员，是的。

安：对。
10:31 K: Whether he is in India, or in England, or in America, or wherever he is. 克：不管这个人是在印度、在英国， 或是在美国，无论他在哪儿。
10:35 A: So we can't slip out of this by saying we have created this, therefore we must change it.

K: No, no, no. 		安：所以，通过说“是我们制造了这种局面， 我们必须要改变它”， 这么说，我们也无法从中脱离。

克：没错，我们不能那样说。
10:43 A: We get back to, well, if the change is going to start at all, it's going to be with each.

K: Yes, sir. 		安：嗯，让我们回到先前的一点， 如果改变真的要发生， 那它必然是从我们每个人开始的。

克：是的，先生。
10:49 A: With each.

K: With each human being. Therefore the question arises from that : does a human being realise with all seriousness his responsibility not only to himself, but to the whole of mankind? 		安：每一个人。

克：从我们人类的每一个开始。 因此，这里就有问题出现了： 每一个人是否极其认真地意识到了 他的责任，不仅仅是对他自己的责任， 也是对整个人类的责任？
11:19 A: It wouldn't appear so from the way things go on. 安：从事情如今的发展状况看来，并不是这样的。
11:23 K: Obviously not. Each one is concerned with his own petty little selfish desires. So responsibility implies tremendous attention, care, diligence, not negligence, as now it is going on. 克：显然不是的。每个人所关心的 就只是他自己那些卑微自私的欲望。 而责任包含的意思是 极大的关注、关心和勤奋， 而不是现在所表现出来的疏忽。
11:46 A: Yes, I do follow that. The word 'we' that we used in relation to each brings about the suggestion of a relationship which perhaps we could pursue here a moment. There seems to be something indivisible apparently between what we refer to by each, or the individual person, as the usage is usually construed. It seems to be an indivisible relation between that and what we call the whole, which the individual doesn't sense. 安：是的，我明白你的意思。 我们用来与个体相对应的“我们”这个词， 引出了“关系”的含义， 我们或许可以花点时间来谈谈这个。 似乎有某种不可分割的东西， 显然存在于我们用“每个人” 或者“个体的人”所指的对象之中， 就像这个词通常解释的用法那样。 似乎有一种不可分割的关系 存在于前面提到的“个体”和我们所谓的“整体”之间， 而这个整体是个体所没有感受到的。
12:29 K: Sir, as you know, I have been all over the world except behind the Iron Curtain and China-Bamboo Curtain. I have been all over, and I have talked to and seen dozens and thousands of people. I have been doing this for 50 years and more. Human beings, wherever they live, are more or less the same. They have their problems of sorrow, problems of fear, problems of livelihood, problems of personal relationship, problems of survival, overpopulation, and this enormous problem of death, it is a common problem to all of us. There is no Eastern problem and Western problem. The West has its particular civilisation, and the East has its own. And human beings are caught in this trap. 克：先生，你知道的，我去过世界许多的地方， 除了铁幕和中国竹帘的背后。 我去过世界各地， 我遇到过成千上万的人， 并且和他们交谈过。 我这么做已经超过50年了。 人类，不管他们居住在哪里， 或多或少是相同的。 他们有悲伤的问题，有恐惧的问题， 生计的问题， 人际关系的问题， 生存的问题，人口过剩的问题， 还有死亡这个重大的问题， 这是我们所有人的常见问题。 并没有什么所谓的东方问题和西方问题。 西方有其独特的文明， 东方也有。 而人类被这陷阱给困住了。
13:40 A: Yes, I follow that. 安：是的，我了解。
13:42 K: They don't seem to be able to get out of it. They are going on and on for millennia. 克：看起来他们无法从里面逃脱了。 千百年来他们就继续着这样的生活。
13:52 A: Therefore the question is : how does he bring this about as an each, as a one? The word 'individual,' as you have just described, seems to me to have a relationship to the word 'transform' in itself, And I would like to ask you, whether you would agree in this. It seems that many persons have the notion that to transform a thing means to change it utterly without any relationship whatsoever to what it is as such. That would seem to ignore that we are talking about form that undergoes a change, which form itself still abides. 安：因此，问题就是：作为一个个人 他该如何带来这种转变？ 就像你刚刚解释过的，“个体”这个词 在我看来 本身是与“转变”这个词有联系的。 我想问问你， 你是否会同意这样的理解。 似乎有很多人都认为， 去转变一件事情，意思是去彻底地改变它， 与它现在是什么完全没有任何关系。 那似乎忽视了我们所说的是 形式发生了改变但形式自身却留存了下来。
14:36 K: Yes, sir, I understand.

A: Otherwise the change would involve a loss, a total loss. 		克：没错，先生，我明白。

安：否则 这种改变会带来一种失去，完全的失去。
14:41 K: So are we asking this question, sir : what place has knowledge in the regeneration of man, in the transformation of man, in the fundamental, radical movement in man? What place has knowledge and therefore time? Is that what you are asking?

A: Yes, yes, I am. Because either we accept that a change - that is a genuine change - means the annihilation of what preceded it, or we are talking about a total transformation of something that abides. 		克：所以先生，我们现在问的问题是不是： 知识 在人类的新生、 人类的转变， 以及人类最彻底和最根本的运动中有着怎样的作用？ 知识，进而是时间，有着怎样的地位？ 这是你要问的吗？

安：对，对，这正是我想问的。 因为我们要么接受：改变 ——那是一种真正的改变—— 意味着在它之前的一切事物的湮灭， 要么我们这里所谈的是 某种持续之物的完全转变。
15:24 K: Yes. So let us look at that word for a minute. 克：是的。那么让我们来看看“转变”这个词吧。
15:27 A: Good. 安：好的。
15:29 K: Revolution, in the ordinary sense of that word means, doesn't it, not an evolution, gradual evolution, it's a revolution. 克：革命， 这个词通常所指的意思， 不是一种进化，逐渐的进化，而是一种革命，不是吗？
15:46 A: It doesn't mean that, right. I agree. 安：它并不是那个意思，对。我同意。
15:50 K: By revolution is generally meant, if you talk to a communist, he wants to overthrow the government, if you talk to a bourgeois, he is frightened, if you talk to an intellectual, he has various criticisms about revolution. Now, revolution is either bloody... 克：“革命”通常意味着， 如果你和一个共产主义者谈， 他想推翻政府， 如果你和一个资产阶级分子谈，他会被吓到， 如果你和一个知识分子谈， 他会有很多 关于革命的评论。 那么，革命要么是血腥的
16:18 A: Yes.

K: ...or revolution in the psyche. 		安：是的。

克：……要么是心智上的。
16:23 A: Yes.

K: Outward or inner. 		安：是的。

克：外在的或者内在的。
16:26 A: Outward or inner.

K: The outward is the inner. The inner is the outward. There is not the difference between the outward and the inner. They are totally related to each other. 		安：外在的或者内在的。

克：外在就是内在。 内在也就是外在。 并没有外在 和内在的区别。 它们是完全联系在一起的。
16:38 A: Then this goes back to what you mentioned earlier that there is no division, even though intellectually you make a distinction between the I and the we. 安：那么这就回到了你之前提到过的： 划分是不存在的，尽管从智力层面 你把我和我们进行了区分。
16:49 K: That's right.

A: Yes, of course. 		克：没错。

安：是的，当然。
16:50 K: So, when we talk about change, we mean not the mere bloody revolution, physical revolution, but rather the revolution in the makeup of the mind. 克：当我们谈到改变， 我们不是指血腥的革命， 身体上的革命， 而是指在心智构成上的革命。
17:11 A: Of each.

K: Of human beings. 		安：每个人的心智。

克：整个人类的心智。
17:13 A: Right.

K: The way he thinks, the way he behaves, the way he conducts himself, the way he operates, he functions - the whole of that. Now, whether that psychological revolution - not evolution in the sense 'gradualness' - what place has knowledge in that? 		安：好的。

克：他思考的方式， 他行为的方式，他展现自己的方式， 他运作的方式，他履行职能的方式——所有这一切。 那么，就心理上的革命而言 ——不是“循序渐进”意义上的进化—— 知识在这里有什么作用？
17:41 A: What place has knowledge in something that occurs... 安：知识有什么作用，在事情发生的过程中
17:45 K: In the regeneration of man, which is the inward revolution which will affect the outer. 克：在人的新生中， 这是一场会影响外部世界的内在革命。
17:55 A: Yes, which is not a gradual progress. 安：是的，这并不是一个渐变的过程。
17:57 K: No, obviously. Gradual process is endless. 克：没错，很明显。渐变的过程是无止境的。
18:01 A: Exactly. So we are talking about an instant qualitative change. 安：确实。所以我们讨论的是 瞬间的质变。
18:07 K: Again, when you use the word 'instant', it seems as though, oh, suddenly it is to happen. That's why I am rather hesitant in using the word 'instant'. We will go into it in a minute. First of all, sir, let's be clear what you and I are talking about, if we may. We see objectively the appalling mess the world is in. Right?

A: Yes. 		克：再来说一下，当你用“瞬间”这个词， 看起来就好像，哦，它突然就会发生。 这是为什么我不太愿意 使用“瞬间”这个词。 过会儿我们再讨论这个。 首先，先生，我们还是来弄清楚 我和你正在讨论的问题吧，如果可以的话。 我们已经客观地看到世界正处于可怕的混乱中。 对吗？

安：是的。
18:38 K: The misery, the confusion, the deep sorrow of man. 克：人的痛苦、困惑和深深的悲伤。
18:44 A: Oh yes. 安：哦，是的。
18:47 K: I can't tell you what I feel when I go round the world. The pettiness, the shallowness, the emptiness of all this, of the so-called Western civilisation, if I may use that word, into which the Eastern civilisation is being dragged. And we are just scratching on the surface all the time. And we think the mere change on the surface, change in the structure, is going to do something enormous to human beings. On the contrary, it has done nothing! It polishes a little bit here and there, but deeply, fundamentally it does not change man. So, when we are discussing change, we must be, I think, fairly clear that we mean the change in the psyche, in the very being of human beings, that is, in the very structure and nature of his thought. 克：我没法告诉你当我去到世界各地时的感受。 那所谓的西方文明的 琐碎、肤浅和空洞， 如果我可以使用“西方文明”这个词的话， 东方文明正被拖拽着进入这个所谓的“西方文明”。 而我们总是仅仅抓一抓表面的东西。 我们思考的也仅仅是表面的改变， 认为结构上的改变， 将对人类产生巨大的影响。 但是现实正相反，这样的影响完全没有发生！ 我们在这儿在那儿粉饰一番， 但是这并不能从深层次上、从根本上改变人类。 因此，当我们讨论改变， 我认为我们必须非常清楚， 我们指的是心智层面的改变， 是人类存在状态本身的改变， 也就是说，他思想的结构和性质本身的改变。
19:58 A: The change at the root.

K: At the root, yes. 		安：就是从根上改变。

克：对，根本上的。
20:00 A: At the root itself. 安：就是这个根源本身。
20:02 K: And therefore when there is that change, he will naturally bring about a change in society. It isn't society first, or individual first, it is the human change which will transform the society. They are not two separate things. 克：因此，当这种改变出现的时候， 他将自然而然地给社会带来改变。 并不是先从社会开始， 或者先从个人开始， 而是人类的改变将会转变这个社会。 它们不是两件分开的事情。
20:21 A: Now I must be very careful that I understand this precisely. I think I discern now, why, in the statement you said, 'which is not dependent on knowledge or time'. Because when this person changes, this each human being changes, the change that begins in society is a change that is in a non-temporal relationship with the change in each human being.

K: That's right. After all, human beings have created this society. By their greed, by their anger, by their violence, by their brutality, by their pettiness, they have created this society. 		安：现在我必须非常小心地 确认我对这点的理解是准确的。 我想我现在认识到了，为什么你在那句话中说到， “这并不取决于知识或是时间”。 因为当这个人改变， 每个人都改变时， 社会上开始发生的改变 与每个人的改变 并没有一种时间上的关系。

克：你说的很对。 毕竟，人类创造了这个社会。 通过他们的贪婪，通过他们的愤怒， 通过他们的暴力，通过他们的残酷， 通过他们的卑琐，创造了这个社会。
21:07 A: Precisely.

K: And they think, by changing the structure, you are going to change the human being. This has been the communist problem, this has been the eternal problem, that is, change the environment then you change man. They have tried that in ten different ways and they haven't done it, succeeded in changing man. On the contrary, man conquers the environment as such. So, if we are clear that the outer is the inner, the inner is the outer, that there is not the division: the society and the individual, the collective and the separate human being, but the human being is the whole, he is the society, he is the separate human individual, he is the factor which brings about this chaos. 		安：正是如此。

克：而他们以为， 通过改变社会的结构， 你就能改变人类。 这是共产主义的问题， 这是永恒的问题， 也就是说，改变环境从而改变人类。 他们已经用各种不同的方法尝试过了， 但他们并没有达成目的， 没有成功地改变人类。 与之相反，人就这样征服了环境。 所以，如果我们明白外在就是内在， 内在也就是外在， 两者之间是不存在分割的： 社会和个人， 人类的集体和人类的个体，这种分割并不存在， 人就是整体，他就是社会， 他就是独立的人类个体， 他就是带来这场混乱的因素。
22:13 A: Yes, I am following that very closely. 安：是的，我一直紧跟着你的思路在理解。
22:15 K: Therefore he is the world and the world is him. 克：因此他就是世界，世界就是他。
22:18 A: Yes. Therefore if he changes, everything changes. If he doesn't change, nothing changes. 安：是的。所以如果他改变，每件事都会改变。 如果他不改变，什么也不会改变。
22:28 K: I think this is very important, because we don't realise, I think, this basic factor that we are the world and the world is us, that the world is not something separate from me and me separate from the world. You are born in a culture - Christian, or Hindu, or whatever culture you are born in - you are the result of that culture. And that culture has produced this world. The materialistic world of the West, if one can call it, which is spreading all over the world, destroying their own culture, their own traditions, everything is being swept aside in the wake of the Western culture, and this culture has produced this human being, and the human being has created this culture. 克：我认为这非常重要， 因为我认为我们并没有意识到这点， 这个基本的事实： 我们就是世界，世界就是我们。 世界并不是独立于我之外的东西， 我与这个世界也不是分开的。 你出生在一种文化中 ——基督教的，或者印度教的， 或者其他任何你生于其中的文化—— 你是那种文化的产物。 而那种文化也造就了这个世界。 西方的唯物主义世界，如果可以这样称呼它的话， 正在蔓延到世界各地， 破坏着当地自身的文化，他们自己的传统， 所有的东西都正被弃置一旁， 紧紧仿效着西方文化， 这样的文化造就了这样的人类， 这样的人类又创造了这样的文化。
23:41 A: Exactly.

K: I mean he has created the paintings, the marvellous cathedrals, the marvellous technological things, going to the moon, and so on, so on - human beings have produced it. It is the human beings that have created the rotten society in which we live. It is the immoral society in which we live, which human beings have created. 		安：确实如此。

克：我的意思是， 他创作了那些绘画，那些奇妙的大教堂， 还有不可思议的技术，登上了月球， 等等，等等——人类创造了这些。 正是人类自己建造了 我们所生活的这个腐朽的社会。 这个不道德的社会，我们就生活在其中， 它就是人类自己建造的。
24:04 A: Oh yes, there is no doubt about that. 安：噢，是的。这是毫无疑问的。
24:05 K: And therefore the world is you, you are the world, there is no other thing. If we accept that, if we see that, not intellectually, but feel it in your heart, in your mind, in your blood that you are that, then the question: is it possible for a human being to transform himself inwardly and therefore outwardly? 克：因此这世界就是你， 你就是这个世界，没有其他的东西了。 如果我们接受了这一点，如果我们看到了这一点，不是在理性层面， 而是从你的内心感受到了，在你的头脑中， 在你的血液里，你感受到你就是世界， 那么接下来的问题就是：人类是否可能 从内在转变自己，从而引发外在的转变？
24:34 A: I am very concerned to see this as clearly as I can, in terms of two texts that come to my mind, which we could say possess an inner meaning, and because of this inner-outer thing that we have spoken about, in the divided approach that is made to scripture, there is a tremendous irony here. I am thinking of that - to me wonderful - text in St. Johns gospel, in the third chapter, which says - and I will try to translate this as the Greek has it - 'The one who is doing the truth is coming to the light'. It isn't that he does the truth and then later he comes to the light.

K: Quite. 		安：我很想尽我所能把这点理解透彻， 就我头脑中出现的两个文本而言， 我们可以说它们拥有一种内在的涵义， 而因为我们刚刚讨论过的 那个内在-外在的内容， 它们被以割裂的方式写成了经文， 这真是个巨大的讽刺。 我在想——这对我来说很美妙—— 《圣约翰福音书》 第三章的内容，里面说： ——我会尽力用希腊人的方式来翻译它—— “践行真理者将走向光明。” 这并不是说他践行真理 然后走向光明。

克：没错。
25:30 A: And it isn't that we could say from the pulpit, 'I will tell you what the truth is, if you do it, then you will see the light'. Because we are back again to what you mentioned earlier: the non-temporal relationship between the action, which itself is the transformation...

K: Quite. 		安：并不是那样的， 我们可能从神职人员那里听说：“我将告诉你 什么是真理，如果你践行这真理， 你将看到光明。” 因为我们又再次回到了你之前提到过的： 有一种并非时间性的关系存在于行动 ——行动本身就是转变——

克：没错。
25:53 A: ...and the marvellous vista of understanding which is not an 'if then' thing, but is truly concurrent. And the other one that I thought of, that I was hoping you might agree in its saying the same thing, so that I understand it well in terms of what you have said - and again I will try to translate it as literally as I can - is: 'God is love, and the one abiding in love is abiding in God and God is abiding in him'. 安：……和领悟带来的奇妙视野之间， 这并不是一件“如果，那么”之类的事情，而是实实在在同时发生的。 另外一句我想到的是， 我希望你也会同意 它说的是同样的事情， 那样的话就说明 我对你所讲的，有了很好的理解 ——同样，我会试着 尽可能忠实原意地翻译它——这句是： “上帝是爱，谁安住在爱中 就是安住于上帝之中，因而上帝就安住于他之中。”
26:32 K: Quite, quite. 克：很对，很对。
26:34 A: I put the 'ing' on all those words because of the character of the language itself. One wouldn't want to translate that for pulpit reading perhaps, but that's the real sense of it. And this 'ing-ing' along gives the feeling that there is an activity here that is not bound temporally.

K: Of course, it isn't a static state. It isn't something you intellectually accept and leave it like that. Then it is death, there is nothing in it! 		安：句中的动词我都用了现在进行时态， 是因为这种语言本身的特点。 人们可能不愿意 在神职人员的诵读中这样翻译， 但这是它真实的意思。 而这种一直用现在进行时态的方式给人 一种活动正在进行的感觉， 而不是仅限于暂时的感觉。

克：当然， 它不是一个静止的状态。 这不是那种你理智上 接受了然后就随它去的东西。 而这就是死亡，其中一无所有！
27:07 A: Yes. 安：是的。
27:09 K: That's why, you see, sir, we have divided the physical world as the East and the West. We have divided religions, Christian religion and Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist. And we have divided the world into nationalities, the capitalist and the socialist, the communist and the other people, and so on. We have divided the world and we have divided ourselves as Christians, non-Christians, we have divided ourselves into fragments opposing each other, so where there is a division, there is conflict. 克：先生，你看，这就是为什么 我们将物质世界 分成东方和西方。 我们把各种宗教分开， 基督教、印度教、伊斯兰教和佛教。 我们还把这个世界分成不同的民族， 资本主义和社会主义， 共产主义和其他人，如此种种。 我们割裂了这个世界， 也把我们自己割裂成了 基督教徒和非基督教徒， 我们已经将自己分裂成了碎片， 相互对立， 所以说，有分裂的地方，就会有冲突。
27:57 A: Precisely. 安：确实。
27:59 K: I think that is a basic law. 克：我认为这是一条基本法则。
28:02 A: Where there is a division, there is conflict. But in terms of that word 'knowledge' it appears that people believe to start with that that division is there, and they operate on that radical belief. 安：有分化的地方，就有冲突。 但是就“知识”这个词而言， 看起来人们相信一开始 那种分化就已经在那儿了， 他们就依据这个根本的信念生活。
28:12 K: That's why I am saying it's so important to understand from the beginning in our talk, in our dialogue, that the world is not different from me and that I am the world. It may sound rather... very simplified, simplistic, but it has got very deep fundamental meaning, if you realise what it means, not intellectually, but inwardly, the understanding of it, therefore there is no division. The moment I say to myself and I realise that I am the world and the world is me, I am not a Christian, nor a Hindu, nor a Buddhist - nothing, I am a human being. 克：这就是为什么我说，非常重要的是去理解， 从我们对话、谈话的最开始， 就要理解这个世界与我并不是不同的， 并且明白我就是世界。 这可能听起来非常 非常简化，非常简单， 但它有着非常深刻的根本的含义， 如果你意识到这意味着什么， 不是从理智上，而是从内在 对它真正地理解了，就不会再有分化了。 一旦我对自己说 并且我意识到我就是世界， 世界就是我，我就不再是一个基督教徒或印度教徒了， 也不是佛教徒——都不是，我是一个人。
29:02 A: I was just thinking when you were saying that how certain kinds of philosophical analysis would approach that, and in terms of the spirit of what you have said, this really is almost a cosmic joke, because on the one hand, as you said, it might sound simplistic. Some would say it is, therefore we don't have to pay attention to it, others would say, well, it's probably so much in want of clarity even though it's profound that it is some kind of mysticism. And we are back and forth with the division again as soon as that happens.

K: Again, that's right. 		安：当你说这个的时候，我在想 某些种类的哲学分析 将如何来着手这个问题， 就你刚刚所谈的那种精神而言， 这真的几乎是一个宇宙级的笑话， 因为一方面，如你所说， 这可能听起来很简单。 有些人会说的确是这样， 因此我们不需要注意它， 另外一些人可能说，好吧，这可能 非常需要澄清，尽管这很深奥， 但它真的有些神秘主义。 一旦这种情况发生，我们就又在这分化中 来回往复了。

克：又回来了，没错。
29:42 A: So, I do follow you. 安：所以，我确实是理解你所说的了。
29:44 K: So, if that is clear, that human mind has divided the world in order to find its own security, which brings about its own insecurity. When one is aware of that, then one must - inwardly as well as outwardly - deny this division as we and they, I and you, the Indian and the European, and the Communist. You cut at the very root of this division. Therefore, from that arises the question: can the human mind, which has been so conditioned for millennia, can that human mind, which has acquired so much knowledge in so many directions, can that human mind change, bring about a regeneration in itself, and be free to reincarnate now? 克：所以，如果这方面清楚了， 那么，人的头脑为了找到它自身的安全 已经分化了这个世界， 而这恰恰给它自己带来了不安全。 当一个人意识到这些， 他就必须——从内在以及外在—— 拒绝这种分化， 像是我们和他们，我和你， 印度人和欧洲人，以及共产主义者之类的分化。 于是你就砍向了分化的根本。 因此，这儿就出现一个问题： 人类的心智， 千百年来都如此局限的心智， 人类的心智， 已经在很多的方面 获得如此多知识的心智， 这样的人类心智，可以改变吗？ 可以为它自己带来新生， 从而现在就能自由地重生吗？
31:12 A: Now.

K: Now. 		安：现在。

克：现在。
31:13 A: Yes.

K: That is the question. 		安：是的。

克：就是这个问题。
31:15 A: That is the question, exactly, reincarnate now. It would appear from what you have said that one could say that the vast amount of represented knowledge, an accretion of centuries, is a discussion we have been having with ourselves, regardless of which culture we are speaking about, as a commentary on this division. 安：就是这个问题， 确实是，现在就重生。 根据你刚刚表达的意思，我们似乎可以说 这数量庞大的代表性的知识， 数个世纪的累积， 是一场我们与自己进行的讨论， 不管我们所说的是哪种文化， 都是这种分化的一个注释。
31:47 K: Absolutely. 克：绝对是的。
31:48 A: And without really grasping the division itself. And of course since the division is infinitely divisible... 安：并不需要真的去理解分化本身。 当然，这种分化可以无止境地一直分化下去
31:56 K: Of course, the moment you divide... 克：当然，一旦你开始划分
31:59 A: Exactly. Then we can have tome after tome after tome, libraries after libraries, mausoleums of books without end, because we are continually dividing the division. 安：确实是。我们就会有一本又一本大部头的书， 一间又一间的图书馆，像陵墓一样没有止境的书， 因为我们不断地把分化继续下去。
32:09 K: That's right.

A: Yes, I follow you. 		克：没错。

安：好的，那我跟上你的思路了。
32:11 K: And you see, that's why culture is different from civilisation. Culture implies growth. 克：你看，这就是 文化与文明不同的原因。 文化意味着成长。
32:25 A: Oh yes, oh yes. 安：哦，是的，是的。
32:28 K: Now, growth in the flowering of goodness. 克：在良善的绽放中成长。
32:36 A: A lovely phrase, lovely phrase. 安：这是个可爱的短语，是个美妙的说法。
32:39 K: That is culture, real culture, the flowering in goodness, you understand, sir? And that doesn't exist. We have civilisation: you can travel from India to America in a few hours, you have better bathrooms, better this and better that, and so on, with all the complications that it involves. That has been the Western culture which is absorbing the East now. So goodness is the very essence of culture. Religion is the transformation of man. Not all the beliefs, churches, and the idolatry of the Christians or the Hindus. That's not religion. So we come back to the point: if one sees all this in this world, observes it, not condemn it or justify it, just to observe it, then, from that, one asks: man has collected such enormous information, knowledge, and has that knowledge changed him into goodness? You follow, sir?

A: Oh yes, I follow. 		克：这是文化，真正的文化， 在良善中绽放，先生，你明白吗？ 但这并不存在。 我们有的是文明：你可以 几个小时就从印度到达美国， 你有更好的浴室， 更好的这个、更好的那个，如此种种， 以及它所引发的所有并发症。 那就是西方文化， 它现在正吞噬着东方文化。 所以说良善是文化的本质。 宗教是就人的转变， 而不是基督教或者印度教中 所有的信条、教堂和偶像崇拜。 那些不是宗教。 所以我们回到了这个点上： 如果一个人看到了世上这所有的一切， 观察它，不去谴责它或是为之辩解， 仅仅是观察它， 接着，从观察中，他就会问： 人类已经积累了如此多的信息、知识， 这些知识是否将他变得良善了呢？ 先生，你明白吗？

安：哦，是的，我明白。
34:00 K: Into a culture that will make him flower in this beauty of goodness. It has not.

A: No, it has not. 		克：知识有没有把他带入一种文化， 会让他在良善之美中绽放？ 知识并没有做到。

安：没错，并没有做到。
34:11 K: Therefore it has no meaning! 克：因此它没有任何意义！
34:14 A: Excursions into defining goodness is not going to help us. 安：漫游在定义“良善”的旅途上 并不会对我们有任何帮助。
34:19 K: You can give explanations, definitions, but definitions are not the reality. 克：你可以给出无数的解释、定义， 但定义并不是事实。
34:26 A: No, of course not. 安：没错，当然不是。
34:27 K: The word isn't the thing. The description isn't the described.

A: Precisely. 		克：词语并不是那个东西。 描述并不是被描述之物。

安：确实。
34:34 K: So we come back again.

A: Yes, let's do. 		克：所以我们又回来了。

安：是的，我们接着讨论吧。
34:39 K: Because, personally, I am tremendously concerned with this question: how to change man. Because I go to India every year for three months or five months, and I see what is happening there, and I see what is happening in Europe, I see what is happening in this country, in America, and it's something I can't tell you what shock it gives me each time I come to these countries. The degeneration, the superficiality, the intellectual concepts galore, without any substance, without any basis or ground, in which the beauty of goodness, of reality, can grow. So saying all that, what place has knowledge in the regeneration of man? That is the basic question. 克：因为，我个人非常关心 这个问题：如何改变人类。 因为我每年都去印度 待三个月或者五个月， 所以我看到了那里正在发生什么， 我看到了欧洲正在发生什么， 我也看到了这个国家，美国正在发生什么， 我无法告诉你，每次我来到这些国家， 这些事情带给我怎样的震惊。 那种退化、肤浅， 智性概念无比丰富， 却没有任何实质，没有任何基础 可供良善之美 和真实之美生长其上。 所以，说到这一切， 知识在人的新生中到底处于什么位置呢？ 这是个根本问题。
35:54 A: That's our point of departure.

K: Departure. 		安：那就是我们出发的地方。

克：出发的地方。
35:56 A: Good. And the knowledge that we have pointed to so far, that has emerged in our discussion, is a knowledge which in itself has no power to effect this transformation. 安：好的。 到目前为止我们所指出的， 并在我们的讨论中出现的“知识”， 是一种自身没有任何力量 去引起那种转变的知识。
36:10 K: No, sir, but knowledge has a place. 克：没错，先生，不过知识也确实是有位置的。
36:12 A: Yes, I didn't mean that. I mean what is expected of this knowledge that we pointed to, that is accumulated in libraries, is an expectation which it in itself cannot fulfil.

K: No, no. Now we must now go back to the word again, the word 'knowledge', what does it mean 'to know'? 		安：是的，我不是那个意思。 我的意思是，我们所指的 那种知识， 也就是图书馆中累积的知识，我们对那种知识抱有的期待， 是一种它自身根本无法满足的期待。

克：对，没错。 现在我们必须再次回到那个词， “知识”这个词， “知道”是什么意思？
36:36 A: Well, I have understood the word, in a strict sense, this way: knowledge is the apprehension of 'what is' but what passes for knowledge might not be that. 安：哦，我已经理解了这个词， 严格的说，是这样的： 知识是对“现状”的理解， 但大家通常所认为的知识可能并不是这个。
36:48 K: No. What is generally accepted as knowledge is experience. 克：对。人们通常认为的 知识是经验。
36:52 A: Yes, what is generally accepted. 安：是的，那是大家普遍接受的意思。
36:54 K: We will begin with that, because that's what... 克：我们就从这里开始，因为那就是
36:56 A: Yes, let's begin with what's generally accepted. 安：好的，我们就从被普遍接受的看法开始。
36:58 K: The experience which yields or leaves a mark which is knowledge. That accumulated knowledge, whether in the scientific world, or in the biological world, or in the business world, or in the world of the mind, the being, is the known. The known is the past, therefore knowledge is the past. Knowledge cannot be in the present. I can use knowledge in the present. 克：会产生 或者留下印记的经验就是知识。 累积起来的知识， 无论是在科学界、 生物学界，或者商业界， 或者是心灵或生命的领域，积累起来的知识，就是已知。 已知是过去，因此知识就是过去。 知识不可能处于此刻。 但此刻我可以使用知识。
37:39 A: But it's funded from the past.

K: Yes. But it has its roots in the past. Which means... That's very interesting, whether this knowledge which we have acquired about everything...

A: Yes. 		安：但它是以过去为基础的。

克：是的。 但是它根植于过去。 那意味着……这很有意思， 我们已经获得的 关于一切的知识是否……

安：是的。
37:58 K: I personally don't read any of these books, neither the Gita, the Bhagavad-Gita, or the Upanishads, none of the psychological books, nothing. I am not a reader. I have observed tremendously all my life. Now, knowledge has its place. 克：我个人不读任何那类的书籍， 不读《薄伽梵歌》或者《奥义书》， 不读任何心理学书籍，什么都不读。 我不是一个博览群书的人。 我这一生进行了大量的观察。 而知识有它自己的位置。
38:23 A: Oh yes, yes.

K: Let's be clear on this. 		安：哦，是的，是的。

克：让我们把这点弄清楚。
38:25 A: Oh yes, in the practical order. 安：哦，是的，在实际生活的方面。
38:27 K: In the practical, technological. I must know where I am going, physically, and so on. Now, what place has that, which is human experience as well as scientific knowledge, what place has that in changing the quality of a mind that has become brutal, violent, petty, selfish, greedy, ambitious, and all the rest of that? What place has knowledge in that? 克：在实际生活和技术方面。 我必须知道我正往哪儿走，物理层面上的，如此种种。 那么，这种知识又有什么作用， 也就是人类的经验以及科学知识， 在改变心灵的品质方面又有什么地位？ ——那颗心已经变得残忍、暴力、 琐碎、自私、贪婪、野心勃勃， 如此等等。 知识在这其中又有什么作用呢？
39:01 A: We are going back to the statement we began with, namely that this transformation is not dependent on knowledge, then the answer would have to be: it doesn't have a place. 安：我们要回到我们一开始的那个表述， 也就是这个转变 并不取决于知识， 所以答案就应该是：它并没有什么位置。
39:12 K: Therefore let's find out what are the limits of knowledge.

A: Yes, yes, of course. 		克：因此让我们来找出 知识的局限在哪里。

安：是的，是的，当然。
39:21 K: Where is the demarcation? Freedom from the known...

A: Yes. 		克：界限在哪里？ 从已知中解脱……

安：是的。
39:31 K: ...where does that freedom begin? 克：……那种自由是从哪里开始的？
39:35 A: Good. Yes, now I know precisely the point at which we are going to move from. Where does that freedom begin, which is not dependent on this funded accretion from the past.

K: That's right. So the human mind is constructed on knowledge.

A: Yes. 		安：好的。 是的，现在我明确地知道了 我们要从哪个点出发了。 那种自由从哪里开始， 这种自由并不依赖于 来自过去的累积。

克：没错。 人类心智是构建在知识之上的。

安：是的。
40:01 K: It has evolved through millennia on this accretion, on tradition, on knowledge. 克：在这种累积的基础上，在传统和知识的基础上， 心智已经进化了千百年，
40:11 A: Yes.

K: It is there, and all our actions are based on that knowledge. 		安：是的。

克：它就在那儿， 而我们所有的行为都以那些知识为基础。
40:20 A: Which by definition must be repetitious. 安：从定义上看，知识必定是重复性的。
40:23 K: Obviously, and it is a repetition. So, what is the beginning of freedom in relation to knowledge? May I put it this way to make myself clear?

A: Yes, yes. 		克：显然如此，它就是一种重复。 所以，相对于知识而言的 自由的开端是什么？ 我可以用这种方式 说得更清楚一些吗？

安：是的，可以。
41:00 K: I have experienced something yesterday that has left a mark. That is knowledge, and with that knowledge I meet the next experience. So the next experience is translated in terms of the old, and therefore that experience is never new. 克：我昨天经历了一件事情， 它留下了印记。 那就是知识， 带着这个知识我去面对下一个经验。 那么这下一个经验就依照旧有的经验得到了诠释， 因此那个经验从来都不是新的。
41:27 A: So in a way, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the experience that I had yesterday, that I recall...

K: The recollection. 		安：所以从某种程度上说，如果我理解正确的话， 你说的是， 我昨天的经验， 我回想起的……

克：回忆。
41:37 A: ...the recollection upon my meeting something new, that appears to have some relationship to it, I approach on the basis of holding my previous knowledge up as a mirror, in which to determine the nature of this new thing that I have confronted.

K: Quite, quite. 		安：……我遇到新事物之时进行回忆， 新事物似乎与回忆有某种关系， 我把早先的知识作为一面镜子抱持着， 在此基础上来接触新事物， 那面镜子就决定了我遇到的 新事物的性质，。

克：没错，没错。
41:59 A: And this could be a rather crazy mirror. 安：而这可能是一面相当疯狂的镜子。
42:02 K: Generally it is. So, you see, that's what I mean.

A: Yes, I follow. 		克：通常是这样的。 所以，你看，这就是我的意思。

安：是的，我能理解。
42:09 K: Where is freedom in relation to knowledge? Or is freedom something other than the continuity of knowledge?

A: Must be something other. 		克：相对于知识而言的 自由在哪里？ 或者自由是否不同于 这种知识的延续？

安：一定是某种另外的东西。
42:25 K: Which means, if one goes into it very, very deeply, it means the ending of knowledge. 克：这就意味着，如果一个人探究得非常非常深入， 那就意味着知识的终结。
42:36 A: Yes. 安：是的。
42:39 K: And what does that mean? What does it mean to end knowledge, whereas I have lived entirely on knowledge. 克：那又是什么意思呢？ 终结知识是什么意思， 而我过去一直是完全依靠知识生活的。
42:53 A: It means that immediately.

K: Ah, wait, wait, see what is involved in it, sir. I met you yesterday, and there is the image of you in my mind, and that image meets you next day. 		安：那就意味着即刻终止。

克：啊，等等。 先生，你看这里边涉及到了什么。 我昨天遇到了你， 我头脑中就有了你的形象， 然后第二天就是那个形象去见你。
43:14 A: Yes.

K: The image meets you. 		安：是的。

克：是那个形象在见你。
43:16 A: The image meets me. 安：那个形象在和我见面。
43:19 K: And there are a dozen images, or hundred images. So the image is the knowledge. The image is the tradition. The image is the past. Now can there be freedom from that? 克：类似的形象有一打， 或者有上百个。因此这形象就是知识。 这形象是传统。 这形象是过去。 那么，有可能摆脱它获得自由吗？
43:41 A: If this transformation that you speak of is to happen, is to come to pass, there must be.

K: Of course. Therefore we can state it, but how is the mind, which strives, acts, functions on image, on knowledge, on the known, how is it to end that? Take this very simple fact: you insult me, or praise me, that remains a knowledge. With that image, with that knowledge I meet you. I never meet you. The image meets you. 		安：如果你谈到的转变要发生的话， 如果那转变要实现的话， 就一定要有这种自由。

克：当然。 所以我们可以这么阐述它，但心智， 它在形象、知识和已知的基础上 努力、活动、运作， 它要如何结束这些？ 看看这个简单的事实：你侮辱了我，或者赞扬了我， 那留下一个知识。 带着那形象，带着那知识，我遇到了你。 我从来都没有遇到你。 是那形象遇到了你。
44:34 A: Exactly. 安：没错。
44:36 K: Therefore there is no relationship between you and me. 克：因此，你和我之间根本就没有关系。
44:41 A: Yes, because between us this has been interposed. 安：是的，因为我们之间的关系被干扰了。
44:44 K: Of course, obviously. Therefore, how is that image to end, never to register, you follow, sir?

A: I can't depend on someone else to handle it for me. 		克：当然，很明显。 所以，怎么样让那形象终止， 从不记录呢， 你明白吗，先生？

安：我不能 依靠别人来帮我处理这事。
44:54 K: Therefore what am I to do? How is this mind, which is registering, recording all the time - the function of the brain is to record, all the time - how is it to be free of knowledge? When you have done some harm to me, personally, or collectively, whatever it be, you have insulted me, you have flattered me, how is the brain not to register that? If it registers, it is already an image, it's a memory, and the past then meets the present. And therefore there is no solution to it. 克：那么我该怎么办？ 这心智要如何， 这时时都在登记、记录的心智 ——大脑的功能就是记录，一直记录—— 它要如何摆脱知识？ 当你伤害了我， 个人的，或者集体的，无论那是什么伤害， 你侮辱了我，你奉承了我， 大脑要如何才能不记录那些？ 如果那记录下来了，它就成了形象，成了记忆， 然后就是过去在遇见现在。 所以这不是解决办法。
45:38 A: Exactly. 安：没错。
45:40 K: I was looking at that word the other day in a very good dictionary: tradition. It means, and of course the ordinary word 'tradere' is to give, hand over, to give across. But it also has another peculiar meaning - not peculiar - from the same word - betrayal. 克：前几天我在一本很好的字典里面 查了一个词： 传统。 它的意思是，当然通常“tradere”这个词， 是“给、传递、递给”的意思。 但是它还有另一种特殊的含义——也不是特殊的—— 来自这同一个词——背叛。
46:00 A: Oh yes, traduce.

K: Traduce. And in discussing in India this came out: betrayal of the present. If I live in tradition, I betray the present. 		安：哦，是的，背叛。

克：背叛。 在印度的探讨中，出现了这句话： 对此刻的背弃。 如果我生活在传统中，我就背离了此刻。
46:19 A: Yes, I do see that. 安：是的，我确实看到了这点。
46:20 K: Which is knowledge betrays the present. 克：是知识背离了此刻。
46:25 A: Which is, in fact, a self-betrayal. 安：事实上，这是一种自我背叛。
46:27 K: Yes, that's right.

A: Yes, certainly. 		克：是的，没错。

安：是的，确实是。
46:29 K: How is the mind, which functions on knowledge, how is the brain, which is recording all the time... 克：心智要如何， 在知识基础上运作的心智， 大脑要如何，时刻都在记录的大脑要如何
46:42 A: Yes.

K: ...to end, to see the importance of recording and not let it move in any other direction? That is, sir, let me to put it this way, very simply: you insult me, you hurt me by word, gesture, by an actual act, that leaves a mark on the brain, which is memory.

A: Yes. 		安：是。

克：……停止， 看到记录的重要性， 并且不让它转移到其他的方向上去？ 那就是，先生，让我这样来说，很简单： 你侮辱了我，伤害了我， 通过语言、手势，或一个实际的行为， 那在大脑中留下一个印记， 那就是记忆。

安：是的。
47:18 K: That memory is knowledge, that knowledge is going to interfere in my meeting you next time, obviously. Now how is the brain, and also the mind, how is the brain to record and not let it interfere with the present? 克：那记忆就是知识， 那知识将会影响 下次我与你的见面，显然会。 那么大脑和心智要如何， 如何能让大脑进行记录 但是不让记录干扰现在呢？
47:44 A: The person must, it seems to me, take pains to negate. 安：在我看来，那个人必须尽力去进行否定。
47:47 K: No, no. See what is implied, how am I to negate it? How is the brain, whose function is to record, like a computer, it is recording... 克：不，不。看看那意味着什么， 我如何去否定它呢？ 头脑要如何——它的功能是记录， 像电脑一样，它时刻记录着
48:00 A: I didn't mean to suggest that it negates the recording. But it's the association, the translation of the recording into an emotional complex. 安：我并不是说要去否定记录， 而是说，要否定的是联想，以及把记录诠释成 一种复杂的情绪。
48:11 K: How is it - that's just the point - how is it to end this emotional response when I meet you next time, you who have hurt me? That's a problem.

A: That's the place from which we, in the practical order, in our relation to ourselves, must then begin. 		克：要如何——这正是关键点—— 你曾经伤害过我，当我下次遇到你， 我要如何去停止这种情绪反应？ 这是个问题。

安：这就是 我们从实际层面上， 在我们与自己的关系中，开始出发的地方。
48:34 K: Yes.

A: Exactly. There is an aspect of this that interests me very much in terms of the relation between the theoretical and the practical. 		克：是的。

安：确实。 这里有一个方面我觉得很有意思， 那就是 理论和实际的关系。
48:49 K: Sir, to me theory has no reality. Theories have no importance to a man who is actually living. 克：先生，对我来说理论没有真实性。 对于一个真正在生活的人来说， 理论一点儿也不重要。
49:06 A: May I say what I mean by theory? I don't think I mean what you think I mean by it. I mean theory in the sense of the Greek word 'theorea', spectacle, what is out there that I see. And the word is therefore very closely related to what you have been talking about in terms of knowledge. And yet it is the case that if we see something, that something is registered to us in the mind in terms of a likeness of it, otherwise we should have to become it in order to receive it, which in a material order would annihilate us. It seems to me, if I followed you correctly, that there is a profound confusion in one's relationship to that necessity for the finite being and what he makes of it. And in so far he is making the wrong thing of it, he is in desperate trouble and can only go on repeating himself, and in such a repetition increasing despair. Have I distinguished this correctly? 安：我可以说一下我所说的“理论”的意思吗？ 我并不认为你理解了我用它所指的意思。 我所说的“理论”指的是 希腊语“theorea”的意思，是壮观的景象， 是我看见的在外面的东西。 因此，这个词与你刚刚 就知识所谈的内容有着紧密的关系。 而事实上，如果我们看到了某个东西， 那个东西就在我们的心中 以一个相近的图像的形式记录了下来， 否则我们就必须去成为它， 以便接收它， 而这在物质层面上似乎会让我们湮灭。 在我看来——如果我正确地理解了你的意思的话—— 一个人与这个有限的存在体的这种需要之间的关系， 和他从中得出了什么， 这之间有着一种深刻的混淆。 而到目前为止，他得出了很多错的东西， 于是他陷入了令人绝望的麻烦中， 并且只能继续重复他自己的做法， 在这样的重复中绝望又在不断增加。 我这样的辨别是否正确？
50:24 K: You see, religion is based on tradition. Religion is vast propaganda, as it is now. In India, here, anywhere, propaganda of theories, of beliefs, of idolatry, worship, essentially based on the acceptance of a theory. 克：你看， 宗教是基于传统的。 宗教是大量的宣传，就跟现在的情况一样。 在印度，在这里，在任何地方， 理论的宣传，信念的宣传，偶像崇拜的宣传， 本质上都是基于对某种理论的接受。
51:00 A: Yes, yes.

K: Essentially based on an idea. 		安：是的，是的。

克：本质上都是基于一个想法。
51:07 A: A statement, a postulate.

K: Ideas, put out by thought. 		安：一个说法，一个假设。

克：想法，是思想产生的。
51:12 A: Right. 安：是的。
51:15 K: And obviously, that's not religion. So religion, as it exists now, is the very denial of truth. 克：而且很明显，那并不是宗教。 所以宗教，就像它如今存在的形式， 是对真理的彻底否定。
51:35 A: Yes, yes. I am sure I understand you. 安：是的，是的。我确定我理解了你的意思。
51:41 K: And if a man like me or... wants to find out, discover what that truth is, he must deny the whole structure of religion as it is, which is idolatry, propaganda, fear, division - you are a Christian, I am a Hindu, all that nonsense - and be a light to oneself. Not in the vain sense of that word. Light, because the world is in darkness, and a human being has to transform himself, has to be a light to himself. And light is not lit by somebody else. 克：如果一个像我这样的人或者 想要去发现，想探索真理到底是什么， 他就必须要否定如今宗教的整个架构， 那是偶像崇拜，是宣传，是恐惧， 是分裂——你是个基督教徒，我是个印度教徒， 那一切无稽之谈—— 并且做自己的光， 而不是在那个词空洞的含义上。 光，因为这个世界一片黑暗， 人类必须转变自己， 必须成为自己的光。 而这光不是由他人点亮的。
52:38 A: So there is a point at which he must stop repeating himself. Is that correct?

K: Correct, sir. 		安：所以他必须在某个点上 停止重复他自己。 对吗？

克：对的，先生。
52:45 A: In a sense, we could use the analogy perhaps from surgery: something that has been continuous is now cut.

K: Yes. 		安：在某种意义上， 我们也许可以用外科手术来类比： 某种一直在持续的东西 现在被切掉了。

克：是的。
52:57 A: And cut radically, not just fooled around with. 安：而且是从根本上切除，而不仅仅是糊弄一下而已。
53:04 K: We haven't time to fool around any more, the house is on fire. At least I feel this enormously, things are coming to such a pass we must do something, each human being. Not in terms of better housing, better security, more this and that, but basically to regenerate himself. 克：我们没有时间再去糊弄了， 房子着火了。 至少我强烈地感觉到了这一点， 事情已经发展到了这个地步，我们必须得做点儿什么， 我们每个人。并不是指好一点儿的住房条件， 更好的保障，更多的这个或那个， 而是从根本上让自己重生。
53:30 A: But if the person believes that in cutting himself from this accretion that he is killing himself, then he is going to resist that idea. 安：但是如果这个人相信 把自己从过去的累积中切断 是在杀害他自己， 那么他就会抗拒这个说法。
53:46 K: Of course, of course. Therefore he has to understand what his mind has created, therefore he has to understand himself. 克：当然，当然。因而他必须得理解 他的心智创造了什么， 所以他必须得了解他自己。
53:59 A: So he starts observing himself. 安：于是他开始观察自己。
54:01 K: Himself, which is the world. 克：他自己，就是这个世界。
54:04 A: Yes. Not learning five languages to be able to... 安：是的。不是需要学五种语言才能
54:07 K: Oh, for God's sake, no, no. Or going to schools where you learn sensitivity and all that rubbish. 克：哦，看在老天的份上，完全不需要。 也不需要去学校学习敏感度 和诸如此类的垃圾。
54:16 A: The point that you are making, it seems to me, is made also by the great Danish thinker, Kirkegaard, who lived a very trying life in his own community, because he was asking them, it seems to me, to undertake what you are saying. He was saying, 'Look, if I go to seminary and I try to understand what Christianity is by studying it myself, then what I am doing is appropriating something here, but then when do I know when I have appropriated it fully. I shall never know that point, therefore I shall forever appropriate it and never do anything about it as such as a subject. The person who must risk the deed, not the utterance - what someone has said before - or not simply thinking through what someone has thought before, but actually embodying the meaning through the observation of myself in relation to that.

K: Quite, quite. 		安：你提出的这点，在我看来， 一位伟大的丹麦思想家，柯克加德，也曾经提出过， 他曾经在自己的社区过着非常艰苦的生活， 因为他曾经要求他们，在我看来， 从事你所说的那些事情。 他曾说：“看，如果我去神学院， 通过我自己去研究， 去试着理解基督精神是什么， 那么我所做的就是把某种东西据为己有， 但是何时我才能知道我已经充分占有它了呢？ 我永远都无法知道确切的那一点， 因此我将永远把它据为己有， 并且永远都不会对它做任何这样的事情， 不会把它作为生活中的一个主题。 人必须拿行动去冒险， 不是拿说辞 ——那些别人之前说过的话—— 也不是仅仅去思考 别人之前思考过的， 而是通过观察自己与基督精神的关系， 来真正地去体现 它的意义。

克：没错，没错。
55:20 A: And that has always seemed to me a very profound insight. But one of the ironies of that is, of course, in the Academy we have an endless proliferation of studies, in which scholars have learned Danish in order to understand Kirkegaard.

K: Oh no. 		安：而我一直以来都认为那是很深刻的洞见。 但是这里边有个讽刺的事情是，当然，那就是： 在学术界我们做着永无止境的扩展研究， 学者们学会了丹麦语， 为的是去理解柯克加德。

克：哦，不。
55:40 A: And what they are doing is to a large extent, if I haven't misjudged the spirit of much that I have read, is simply perpetuate the very thing he said should be cut. I do have this very strong feeling that profound change would take place in the Academy, of which you know I am a member, if the teacher were not only to grasp this that you have said, but take the risk of acting on it. Since if it isn't acted on, if I've understood you correctly, we are back again where we were. We have toyed with the idea of being valiant and courageous, but then we have to think about of what is involved before we do, and then we don't do.

K: Quite. 		安：他们所做的，在很大的程度上 ——如果我没有误判我之前所读内容包含的精神的话—— 就只不过是在无限地延续那个他说需要切除的东西。 我确实有这种非常强烈的感觉： 学术界将会发生一场深刻的变革， 你知道我就是其中的一员， 如果老师并不仅限于 理解你说的那些话， 而是进一步冒险开始那样践行的话。 因为如果不去践行 ——如果我正确地理解了你的意思—— 那么我们还会再次回到我们先前所在的地方。 我们把玩着这个想法： 要勇敢，要有胆量， 但我们需要在行动前想一想 这其中都涉及到了些什么， 而接下来我们并没有去做。

克：没错。
56:36 A: We think and don't do.

K: Therefore, sir, the word is not the thing. The description is not the described, and if you are not concerned with the description, but only with the thing, 'what is', then we have to do something. When you are confronted with 'what is' you act, but when you are concerned with theories and speculations and beliefs, you never act. 		安：我们思考，但我们不去做。

克：因此，先生， 词语并不是那个事物本身。 描述并不是被描述之物， 如果你不关心描述， 而仅仅关心事物本身，关心“现状”， 我们就不得不去“做”些什么。 当你面对“现状”的时候，你会行动， 但是当你关心的是理论、 猜想和信条， 你就永远不会行动。
57:01 A: So there isn't any hope for this transformation, if I have understood you correctly, if I should think to myself that this just sounds marvellous: I am the world and the world is me, while I go on thinking that the description is the described. There is no hope. So we are speaking about a disease over here, and we are speaking about something that has been stated as the case, and if I take what has been stated as the case as 'the case', then I am thinking that the description is the described. 安：所以这种转变是没有任何希望的了 ——如果我正确地理解了你的意思—— 如果我只是自己在心里想：“这听起来真是不可思议： 我就是世界，世界就是我”， 而同时我继续想着 “描述就是被描述之物”的话， 那就没有希望了。 所以我们在这里谈的是一种病态， 而且我们谈论的是 一件已经被称为事实的事情， 而如果我把已经被“称为”事实的事情 当作“事实”本身的话， 那么我就会以为描述就是被描述之物。
57:34 K: Of course.

A: And I never get out. 		克：当然。

安：因而我永远都出不去。
57:36 K: Sir, it is like a man who is hungry. Any amount of description of the right kind of food will never satisfy him. He is hungry, he wants food. So all this implies, doesn't it, sir, several things. First, can there be freedom from knowledge - and knowledge has its place - can there be freedom from the tradition as knowledge. 克：先生，那就像有一个饥饿的人， 即使连篇累牍地描述合适的食物， 也不能让他满足。他很饿，他需要的是食物。 所以，先生，这些就意味着 以下几个方面的事情，不是吗？ 首先，可能从知识中解脱出来吗 ——而知识有它的位置—— 能否从作为知识的 传统中解脱出来？
58:16 A: From the tradition as knowledge, yes. 安：从作为知识的传统中解脱出来，是的。
58:19 K: Can there be freedom from this separative outlook: me and you, we and they, Christian, and all this divisive attitude or activity in life. Those are the problems we have to... 克：我们能摆脱生活中这种 具有分裂性的观念：你和我， 我们和他们，基督教徒，以及所有这些分裂性的 态度和行为吗？ 这些问题我们需要去
58:39 A: That's what we must attend to as we move through our dialogues. 安：那就是我们在谈话进行过程中 必须要注意到的问题。
58:44 K: So, first, can the mind be free from the known, and not verbally, but actually?

A: But actually. 		克：因此，首先，心智可能从已知中解脱吗， 不是从言语上，而是真正解脱出来？

安：而是真正解脱出来。
58:57 K: I can speculate about what is freedom, and all the rest of it, but see the necessity, the importance that there must be freedom from the known, otherwise life becomes repetitive, a continuous superficial scratching. It has no meaning.

A: Of course. In our next conversation together I hope we can begin where we have just left off. 		克：我可以推测 什么是自由，以及诸如此类的一切， 但是要看到这种必要性和重要性： 必须要有从已知中解脱的自由， 否则生活就会变得重复， 变成一种持续不断的表面功夫而已， 那就没有意义了。

安：当然。 在我们下次的对话中， 我希望能够从我们刚刚中断的地方开始。