克里希那穆提 - 知识与人际关系中的冲突

Krishnamurti Subtitles

SD74CA2 - 知识与人际关系中的冲突
与艾伦·W·安德森博士的第二次对话
美国，加利福尼亚，圣地亚哥
1974年2月18日

0:37	Krishnamurti in Dialogue with Dr. Allan W. Anderson	克里希那穆提与艾伦·W·安德森博士的对话
0:42	J. Krishnamurti was born in South India and educated in England. For the past 40 years he has been speaking in the United States, Europe, India, Australia, and other parts of the world. From the outset of his life's work he repudiated all connections with organised religions and ideologies and said that his only concern was to set man absolutely unconditionally free. He is the author of many books, among them The Awakening of Intelligence, The Urgency of Change, Freedom From the Known, and The Flight of the Eagle. This is one of a series of dialogues between Krishnamurti and Dr. Allan W. Anderson, who is professor of religious studies at San Diego State University where he teaches Indian and Chinese scriptures and the oracular tradition. Dr. Anderson, a published poet, received his degree from Columbia University and the Union Theological Seminary. He has been honoured with the distinguished Teaching Award from the California State University.	J·克里希那穆提出生在南印度，而后在英国接受教育。在过去的40年里，他曾在美国、欧洲、印度、澳大利亚以及世界其他地方发表演讲。在他毕生的事业刚刚开始的时候，他就断绝了与有组织的宗教和意识形态的所有关系，并说他唯一关心的是让人获得绝对的、无条件的自由。他著有多本著作，如《智慧的觉醒》、《转变的紧迫性》、《从已知中解脱》和《鹰的翱翔》等。这是克里希那穆提与艾伦·W·安德森博士的系列对话之一。安德森博士是圣地亚哥州立大学宗教研究学的教授，讲授印度和中国的经文以及传统的神谕文化。安德森博士，是一位有诗作出版的诗人，从哥伦比亚大学和纽约协和神学院获得了学位。他曾经获得加州州立大学授予的杰出教学奖。
1:48	A: Mr. Krishnamurti, in our previous conversation, I was extremely delighted, for myself at least, that we had made the distinction in terms of relation between knowledge and self-transformation, between, on the one hand, the relationship that I sustain with the world, - as the world is me and I am the world - and on the other hand, this dysfunctional condition, which indicates - in your phrase - that a person is involved in thinking that the description is the described. It would appear then that something must be done to bring about a change in the individual, and, going back to our use of the word 'individual', we could say - and you used the word earlier - that we are dealing with an observer. So if the individual is not to make the mistake of taking the description for the described, then he must, as an observer, relate to the observed in a particular way that is totally different from the way he has been in his confusion. I thought that, perhaps, in this particular conversation, if we pursued that it would be a link directly with what we had said prior.	安：克里希那穆提先生，在上次的谈话中，我感到非常愉快，至少我自己是这样，因为我们澄清了知识与自我转变之间的关系，一方面，我与世界保持的关系， ——也就是世界是我，我就是世界—— 另一方面，如今这种紊乱的状况，这两者之间的关系，这表明——用你的话说—— 人陷入了认为 “描述就是被描述之物”这样的想法中。因此，看上去我们必须要做些事情，以带来一种个体层面的改变，同时，回到我们对“个体”这个词的用法，我们可以说——你之前也用过这个词—— 我们正在和一个观察者打交道。所以，如果个体没有犯把描述当成被描述之物的错误，那么他必须，作为一个观察者，用某种特定的方式与被观察者联系起来，而那与他之前所处的困惑状态截然不同。我想，也许在这次特定的对话中，如果我们深入探讨这一点，那将直接与我们先前所说的联系到一起。
3:25	K: What we said previously, wasn't it that there must be a quality of freedom from the known, otherwise the known is merely repetitive of the past, the tradition, the image, and so on. The past, surely, sir, is the observer. The past is the accumulated knowledge as the 'me' and the 'we', they' and 'us'. The observer is put together by thought as the past. Thought is the past. Thought is never free. Thought is never new, because thought is the response of the past as knowledge, as experience, as memory.	克：我们先前所说的，不就是说必须要有某种从已知中解脱的自由吗，否则已知就仅仅是过去的重复，传统、形象等等的重复。过去，先生，无疑就是观察者。过去是累积起来的知识， “我”和“我们”，“他们”和“我们”这类的知识。这个观察者是由思想，即过去组成的。思想就是过去。思想从来都不自由。思想也从来都不是新的，因为思想是对过去的反应，它是知识，是经验，是记忆。
4:38	A: Yes, I follow that.	安：是的，我理解。
4:40	K: And the observer, when he observes, is observing with the memories, experiences, knowledge, hurts, despairs, hope - all that, with all that background he looks at the observed. So the observer then becomes separate from the observed. Is the observer different from the observed? Which we will go into presently later on. That leads to all kinds of other things. So, when we are talking of freedom from the known, we are talking about the freedom from the observer.	克：而这个观察者，当他观察的时候，他是带着记忆、经验、知识、伤害、绝望、希望——带着这一切观察的，他带着所有这些背景去看被观察的对象。因此观察者就和观察对象分开了。观察者与被观察者是不同的吗？这一点稍后我们会探讨。这一点会导向各种各样其他的问题。所以，当我们说从已知中解脱，我们说的是摆脱观察者的自由。
5:33	A: The observer, yes.	安：观察者，是的。
5:36	K: And the observer is the tradition, the past, the conditioned mind that looks at things, looks at itself, looks at the world, looks at me, and so on. So the observer is always dividing. The observer is the past and therefore it cannot observe wholly.	克：而这个观察者是传统，是过去，是受制约的心智，它看着各种事物，看着它自己，看着这个世界，看着我，等等。这个观察者总是在划分。观察者就是过去，因此它不能完整地观察。
6:10	A: If the person uses the first person pronoun 'I' while he is taking the description for the described, this is the observer he refers to when he says, 'I'.	安：如果这个人用第一人称代词“我”，这时他将描述当成了被描述之物，当他说“我”的时候，其实指的是那个观察者。
6:27	K: 'I' is the past. A: I see.	克：“我”是过去。安：我明白。
6:32	K: 'I' is the whole structure of what has been: the remembrances, the memories, the hurts, the various demands - all that is put together in the word 'the I' who is the observer, and therefore division: the observer and the observed. The observer who thinks he is a Christian and observes a non-Christian, or a Communist, this division, this attitude of mind which observes with conditioned responses, with memories, and so on. So that is the known.	克：“我”就是一直以来存在的整个架构：回忆、记忆、伤痛、各种需求 ——这一切都汇集在一个“我”字上，也就是这个观察者，因而分别产生了：观察者和被观察者。认为自己是一个基督徒的观察者去观察一个非基督徒，或者一个共产主义者，带着受制约的反应、带着记忆等等进行观察的心智具有的这种划分、这种态度。所以这就是已知。
7:29	A: I see.	安：我明白。
7:30	K: I mean, I think that is logically so.	克：我是说，我认为从逻辑上讲就是这样。
7:33	A: Oh no, it follows precisely from what you have said.	安：噢，它确实符合你之前所说的。
7:37	K: So, we are asking, can the mind, or the whole structure, can the mind be free from the known? Otherwise the repetitious action, repetitious attitudes, repetitious ideologies will go on, modified, changed, but it will be the same direction.	克：所以，我们问，心智或者这整个架构，这心智是否可以从已知中解脱？否则重复的行动，重复的态度，重复的意识形态将会继续，经过调整、改变，但还是会延续同样的方向。
8:08	A: Do go ahead, I was going to say something, but I think I'll let it wait until you have finished what you have said.	安：请继续，我本想说点什么，但是我认为我应该等你说完再讲。
8:13	K: So, what is this freedom from the known? I think that is very important to understand because any creative action... I am using the word 'creative' in its original sense, not in the sense creative writing, creative...	克：那么，什么是从已知中解脱？我认为理解这一点非常重要，因为任何有创造性的行动我是在原本的意义上使用“创造性”一词的，而不是指有创意的文章、有创意的
8:33	A: I know.	安：我知道。
8:34	K: ...bakery, creative essay, creative pictures. I am not talking in that sense. In the deeper sense of that word creative means something totally new being born. Otherwise it is not creative, it is merely repetitive, modified, changed, or the past. So unless there is a freedom from the known, there is no creative action at all. Which is, freedom implies, not the negation of the known, but the understanding of the known, and that understanding brings about an intelligence, which is the very essence of freedom.	克：……面包店、有创意的短文、有创意的照片。我不是从那个意义上讲的。在更深的层面上， “创造性”这个词的意思是有某种全新的事物诞生。否则就不是创造性的，而仅仅是重复、调整、改变，或者就是过去。所以，除非有从已知中解脱的自由，否则就没有什么创造性的行动可言。自由的意思，并不是否定已知，而是对已知的理解，那理解会带来智慧，这是自由的精髓。安：我想确认一下我已经理解了
9:31	A: I'd like to make sure that I've understood your use of this word 'creative'. It seems to me very, very important. People who use the word 'creative' in the sense that you described: creative this, that, or the other... K: That's a horror. That is a dreadful way of using that word.	你对“创造性”一词的用法。这对我来说非常非常重要。使用“创造性”这个词的人们就是在你之前描述的那个意义上使用它的：有创意的这个、那个或者别的…… 克：那很可怕，那样使用这个词是一种可怕的方式。
9:51	A: ...because what the issue is of their activity is something merely novel. K: Novel, novel, that's right.	安：……因为他们的行为具备的特性仅仅是有些新奇的地方。克：新奇的，新奇的，对。
9:59	A: Not radically new, but novel.	安：不是彻底的新的，只是新奇的。
10:03	K: It's like creative writing, teaching creative writing. It's so absurd! A: Exactly. Yes, now I do, I think, grasp precisely the distinction you have made. And I must say I fully agree with that.	克：就像有创意的文章，教授有创意的写作。这太荒诞了！安：确实。是的，现在我想我确实准确地理解了你刚刚所做的区分。我必须说我完全同意这一点。
10:20	K: Unless you feel new you cannot create anything new.	克：除非你感觉焕然一新，否则你不可能创造任何新东西。
10:26	A: That's right. And the person, who imagines that he is creative in this other sense that we pointed to, is a person whose reference for his activity is this observer that we mentioned, that is tied to the past.	安：没错。一个人如果想象着自己在我们刚刚指出的另一个层面上具有创造性，那么他作为行动参考的就是那个我们提到的观察者，那个与过去捆绑在一起的观察者。
10:47	K: Yes, that's right. A: So even if something does appear that is really extraordinarily novel, merely novel, but still extraordinarily novel, they are kidding themselves.	克：是的，没错。安：所以就算某事确实显得真的超乎寻常的新奇，仅仅只是新奇，但仍是超乎寻常的新奇，那他们也只是在自欺欺人。
10:59	K: The novel is not the creative. A: Exactly.	克：新奇并不是创造性的。安：没错。
11:01	K: The novel is just the...	克：新奇只是
11:04	A: And today especially, it seems to me, in our culture, we've become hysterical about this, because in order to be creative one simply must wrack his brains in order to produce something which in itself is bizarre enough to get attention.	安：尤其是现在，在我看来，在我们的文化中，我们已经变得对此非常狂热，因为为了有创意，人必须绞尽脑汁才能做出点东西，让那东西本身足够奇怪，以获得人们的关注。
11:20	K: That's all. Attention, success.	克：就是这样。关注，成功。
11:24	A: Yes. It has to be novel to the degree that I feel knocked on the head by it.	安：是的。它必须要新奇到我觉得被它敲到了头的地步。
11:31	K: Eccentric, and all the rest. A: Exactly. But if that tension is increased, then, with each succeeding generation, the person is put to tremendous stress not to repeat the past, which he can't help repeating.	克：够古怪，诸如此类。安：正是。但是如果那种紧张度增强，那么，接下来的每一代人，都被置于不能重复过去的极大压力中，可他完全忍不住去重复。
11:45	K: Repeating, quite. That's why I say freedom is one thing and knowledge is another. We must relate the two and see whether the mind can be free from knowledge. We won't go into it now. This is real meditation for me. You follow, sir? A: Yes, I do.	克：重复，没错。这就是为何我说自由是一件事，而知识是另一件事。我们必须把这两者联系起来，然后看看心智是否可以从知识中解脱。我们现在先不探讨这个。这对我来说就是真正的冥想。先生，你明白吗？安：是的，我明白。
12:09	K: Because... when we'll talk about meditation, we will go into it. You see, whether the brain can record and be free not to record, to record and operate when necessary, in the recording, in the memory, in knowledge, and be free to observe without the observer.	克：因为……当我们说到冥想的时候，我们再来讨论它。你看，是否大脑可以记录，又可以自由地不去记录，当需要的时候就去记录和运作，在记录中，在记忆中，在知识中运转，同时又能不带着观察者去自由地观察。
12:43	A: Oh yes, yes, I see. That distinction seems to me absolutely necessary, otherwise it wouldn't be intelligible.	安：噢，是的，是的，我明白。这种区分对我来说非常必要，否则就不可理解了。
12:53	K: So knowledge is necessary to act in the sense my going home from here to the place I live. I must have knowledge. I must have knowledge to speak English. I must have knowledge to write a letter, and so on, everything. The knowledge as function, mechanical function, is necessary. Now if I use that knowledge in my relationship with you, another human being, I am bringing about a barrier, a division between you and me, who is the observer. Am I making myself clear?	克：所以在有些情况下，知识是需要的，比如我从这里走回家，回到我住的地方。我必须具备知识。我必须具备知识才能说英语。我必须有知识才能写信，等等，每件事都需要知识。知识作为功能，机械的功能，是需要的。然而，如果我在与你的关系中运用这知识，或者与别人的关系中，我就带来了一个障碍，一个你我之间的分别，这就是观察者。我说清楚了吗？
13:46	A: I am the observed in that case. Right in that context.	安：在那个例子中我就是被观察者。就在那种语境下。
13:50	K: That is, knowledge in a relationship, in human relationship, is destructive. That is, knowledge, which is the tradition, the memory, the image, which the mind has built about you, when we are related together, that knowledge is separative and therefore creates conflict in that relationship. As we said earlier, where there is division there must be conflict. Division between India and Pakistan, India and America, Russia, and all that, this divisive activity, politically, religiously, economically, socially, in every way, must inevitably bring conflict and therefore violence. That's obvious. A: Exactly.	克：也就是说，知识在关系中，在人际关系中，是破坏性的。也就是说，知识，就是传统、记忆、意象，这些都是心智围绕你建立起来的，当我们产生联系时，知识会造成分裂，因而会在那段关系中制造出冲突。就像我们之前说的，有划分的地方就必然有冲突。印度和巴基斯坦的划分，印度和美国、俄罗斯等诸如此类的划分，这种分裂的行为，政治上、宗教上、经济上、社会上，在每个方面，都不可避免会带来冲突，从而带来暴力。那是显而易见的。安：正是。
14:55	K: Now, when in relationship, in human relationship, knowledge comes between, then in that relationship there must be conflict, between husband and wife, boy and girl, wherever there is the operation as the observer, who is the past, who is knowledge, in that activity there is division and therefore conflict in relationship.	克：那么，当在关系中，在人类的关系中，知识插手进来，此时在那关系中就必定会有冲突，夫妻之间，男女之间，无论哪里有观察者在运作， ——那观察者是过去，是知识—— 那种行为中就会有划分，进而关系中就有冲突。
15:29	A: So now the question that comes up next is the one of freedom from being subject to this repetitive round.	安：所以现在出现的下一个问题就是摆脱受制于这个重复的循环的问题。
15:41	K: That's right. A: Good, good.	克：正是。安：好的，好的。
15:43	K: Now is that possible? You follow, sir? It is an immense question because human beings live in relationship. A: Yes.	克：那么那可能吗？先生，你明白吗？这是个很大的问题，因为人类就生活在关系中。安：是的。
15:57	K: There is no life without relationship. Life means to be related.	克：没有关系就没有生活。生活就意味着有关系。
16:07	A: Exactly.	安：正是。
16:09	K: People who retire into a monastery, and all that, they are still related, however they might like to think they are alone, they are actually related, related to the past.	克：就算是人们退隐到了修道院，诸如此类，他们仍然处于关系中，虽然他们可能会认为自己独自一人，但他们实际上是在关系中的，与过去有关系。
16:21	A: Oh yes, very much so.	安：噢，是的，正是这样。
16:23	K: To their saviour, to their Christ, to their Buddha, - you follow? - all that, they are related to the past.	克：与他们的救主，与他们的基督，与他们的佛陀， ——你理解吗？——那一切，他们和过去有关联。
16:30	A: And their rules. K: And their rules, everything.	安：还和他们的规则有关联。克：和他们的规则，和一切都有关。
16:32	A: Yes. K: They live in the past and therefore they are the most destructive people, because they are not creative in the deeper sense of that word.	安：是的。克：他们生活在过去，因此他们是最具有破坏性的人，因为他们没有创造性 ——从这个词更深的涵义上来说。安：没错，他们也，就目前而言
16:46	A: No, and they also, in so far as they are involved in this confusion that you have been talking about, are not even producing anything novel. Not that that means anything, but perhaps that would rather radically...	他们也陷入了你之前所说的这种混乱之中，他们甚至没有制造出任何新奇的东西。并不是说那种新奇有什么意义，而是可能那会相当彻底地克：对于一个很健谈的人来说，新奇的事物也许就是
17:04	K: The novel would be, for a man who is talkative, to enter a monastery where they don't talk. That's a novel to him and he says that's a miracle!	走进一个没有人说话的修道院。那对他来说是很新奇的事，他会说那真是个奇迹！安：没错。
17:13	A: Right.	克：所以我们的问题就是：
17:15	K: So our problem then is: what place has knowledge in human relationship?	在人类的关系中知识具有怎样的地位？安：是的，这就是问题所在。克：这是一个问题。
17:25	A: Yes, that's the problem. K: That's one problem. Because relationship with human beings is the highest importance, obviously, because out of that relationship we create the society in which we live. Out of that relationship all our existence comes.	因为与人们的关系是最为重要的，显然如此，因为从那关系中我们建造了我们所处的社会。我们所有的生活都从那关系而来。安：这又将我们带回到之前的一个说法：
17:50	A: This would take us back again to the earlier statement: I am the world and the world is me. That is a statement about relationship. It's a statement about many other things too, but that is a statement about relationship. The statement 'the description is not the described' is the statement of the rupture of the relationship...	我就是世界，世界就是我。这是一个关于关系的说法，它也是关于其他很多东西的说法，但那是一个关于关系的说法。另一个说法“描述不是被描述之物” 是关于关系破裂的一个说法克：对的。安：……在日常活动方面。
18:15	K: That's right. A: ...in terms of everyday activity.	克：先生，日常活动就是我的生活，我们的生活。
18:19	K: Sir, everyday activity is my life, is our life.	安：就是一切。是的，确实。
18:23	A: Is everything. Yes, precisely.	克：无论我去办公室，去工厂，
18:25	K: Whether I go to the office, the factory, or drive a bus, or whatever it is, it is life, living.	还是开巴士，不论什么，它就是生活，活着。安：但这很有意思，不是吗，尽管当
18:32	A: But it is interesting, isn't it, that even when that rupture is undergone at a very destructive level, what we call thought - in the context of our description of it and image - becomes itself even distorted.	这种破裂已经到了非常具有破坏性的程度，我们所说的思想 ——在我们对它描述的语境中—— 以及意象，本身甚至已经变得扭曲了。克：当然，当然。安：所以这种扭曲，
18:53	K: Of course, of course. A: So that the distortion, that we've been calling knowledge in terms of its application, - not 'I need to know how to get from here to there', of course - can itself suffer an even worse condition than we are presently related to, and we have tomes upon tomes about that pathology in itself, don't we? Please, please, do go on.	我们一直叫它知识，就它的应用而言， ——不是“我需要知道如何从这里去那里”，那是当然—— 这种扭曲本身会遭受比我们现在身处的更加糟糕的状况，而且我们也有连篇累牍的关于其自身病理学的书籍，不是吗？请你一定要继续讲下去。克：所以知识与自由：
19:22	K: So knowledge and freedom: they must both exist together, not freedom 'and' knowledge. It's the harmony between the two. The two operating all the time in relationship.	它们必须一同存在，而不是自由“和”知识。这两者之间是和谐的。这两者一直在关系中运作着。安：知识与自由和谐无间。
19:44	A: The knowledge and freedom in harmony.	克：和谐无间，好像它们永远不会分开。
19:48	K: In harmony. It's like they can never be divorced. If I want to live with you in great harmony, which is love, - which we will discuss later on - there must be this absolute sense of freedom from you, not dependency, and so on, so on, so on, this absolute sense of freedom and operating at the same time in the field of knowledge.	如果我想要和你非常和谐地生活在一起，而这就是爱， ——我们将在后面讨论—— 我就必须具备从你那里解脱出来的彻底自由，不依赖，等等，等等，有这种绝对的自由，同时又在知识的范畴内运作的。安：正是。
20:24	A: Exactly. So somehow this knowledge, if I may use a theological word here without prejudicing what we are talking about, if in correct relationship with this freedom, is somehow continuously redeemed, it is somehow operating no longer destructively, but in coordination with the freedom, in which I may live, because we haven't got to that freedom yet, we are just positing freedom. Exactly.	所以某种程度上，这知识，如果我可以在这儿用一个理论词汇，而不至于歪曲我们正在讨论的内容，如果在与这自由正确的关系中，知识能在某种程度上不断得到补救性的应用，某种程度上它的运作就不再是破坏性的了，而是与我也许生活在其中的这自由相协调， ——因为我们还没有到达那种自由，我们只是在假定这种自由。正是。克：我们已经在某种程度上分析了、讨论了，或者说打开了
21:05	K: We have somewhat analysed, or discussed, or opened, the question of knowledge. A: Yes.	关于知识的问题。安：是的。克：但我们还没有探讨关于自由的问题，
21:13	K: And we haven't gone into the question of freedom, what it means.	它意味着什么。安：没有，但我想我们已经确立了一些东西，
21:18	A: No, but we have established something, I think, that this conversation so far has revealed, which is terribly important, at least I'd say for my students in terms of helping them not to misunderstand what you are saying.	那就是这场对话到目前为止所揭示的，是非常重要的，至少我想对我的学生而言，这可以帮助他们不误解你所说的话。克：没错。安：我有种感觉，
21:38	K: Quite. A: I have the feeling that many persons, because they are not sufficiently attentive to what you say, simply dismiss many statements you say out of hand as...	很多人，因为他们没有足够细心地聆听你说的话，于是很快就轻易地抛弃了你的许多说法，认为它们是克：……不可能的。安：……要么是不可能的，要么
21:51	K: ...impossible. A: ...as either impossible, or if they like the aesthetics of it, it still doesn't apply to them. It's a lovely thing out there: 'Wouldn't it be great if somehow we could do this?' But, you see, you haven't said that. You haven't said what they think you have said. You've said something about knowledge with respect to pathology, and you've said something about knowledge, in which knowledge itself is no longer destructive. K: No.	即使他们喜欢其中的美，但那仍然不适用于他们。那里有一种美丽的东西： “如果我们可以在某种程度上这样做，不是很好吗？” 但是，你知道，你并没有那样说过。你并没有说他们认为你说过的东西。你说过一些关于病理学知识的话，你也说过一些关于知识的话，在那里面知识本身就不再具有破坏性了。克：没错。安：所以我们并不是说那样的知识
22:21	A: So we're not saying that knowledge as such is the bad guy and something else is the good guy. No, no. I think it is terribly important that that's seen, and I wouldn't mind it being repeated over and over again, because I do heartily feel that it's easy to misunderstand.	是坏东西而其他的是好东西。不，没有。我认为看到这一点是非常重要的，我不会介意它被一遍又一遍地重复，因为我真的从心底里感到那非常容易被误解。克：那非常重要，因为宗教，
22:44	K: That's very important, because religion, at least the meaning of that word is to gather together, to be attentive. That is the true meaning of that word 'religion'. I have looked it up in a dictionary. A: Oh yes, I agree.	至少那个词的意思是聚集在一起，要全神贯注。那是“宗教”这个词真正的意思。我查过字典的。安：噢是的，我同意。克：聚集所有的能量来全神贯注。
23:04	K: Gathering together all energy to be attentive. To be attentive, otherwise it's not religion. Religion is all the things... we'll discuss that when we come to it. So freedom means the sense of complete austerity and a sense of total negation of the observer.	要全神贯注，否则就不是宗教。宗教就是所有这些当我们谈到那儿的时候再来讨论。所以自由意味着一种完全的简朴和对观察者的全然否定。安：没错。
23:36	A: Exactly.	克：简朴和其他的一切就从中而来
23:40	K: Out of that comes austerity, everything else - we'll go into that later on.	——我们稍后再讨论那一点。安：但是简朴本身不会产生自由。
23:45	A: But austerity in itself doesn't produce it.	克：不会，得颠倒过来。安：所以说我们把它颠倒过来了。
23:48	K: No. Upside down. A: So we've turned that upside down.	克：简朴实际上意味着，这个词本身的意思是
23:51	K: Austere means, really, the word itself means ash, dry, brittle. But the austerity of which we are talking about is something entirely different. A: Yes.	灰烬，干燥的，易碎的。然而我们所谈的简朴是完全不同的东西。安：是的。克：是自由
24:08	K: It is the freedom that brings about this austerity, inwardly.	带来了这种内在的简朴。安：有一句很美的圣经短语也指出了这一点，
24:13	A: There is a beautiful biblical phrase that points to this, just three words, 'beauty for ashes', when the transformation takes place. And in English we have the phrase 'ashes in the mouth' when the whole thing has come to ashes. But there is a change from ashes to beauty.	只有三个词，当转变发生的时候， “灰烬化作美丽”。在英语中我们有这个短语“口中的灰烬”，说的是当一切都变成灰烬的时候。但仍有机会从灰烬化为美丽。克：所以自由在知识的领域中运转，
24:35	K: So freedom in action in the field of knowledge and in the field of human relationship, because that is the highest importance: human relationship.	也在人类关系的领域中运转，因为那是最为重要的：人与人的关系。安：噢，是的，是的。
24:56	A: Oh yes, yes. Oh yes, particularly if I am the world and the world is me.	噢，是的，尤其是如果我是世界，世界就是我。克：显然是的。安：是的。
25:02	K: Obviously. A: Yes.	克：所以在人类关系中知识具有什么地位？
25:04	K: So what place has knowledge in human relationship? Knowledge in the sense of past experience, tradition, image.	过去的经验、传统、意象，这个意义上的知识。安：是的。
25:21	A: Yes.	克：观察者有什么地位，
25:22	K: What place has the observer, - all that is the observer - what place has the observer in human relationship?	——那一切就是观察者—— 在人类的关系中观察者有什么地位？安：一方面是知识有什么地位，另一方面，
25:34	A: What place has knowledge on the one hand, what place has the observer.	观察者有什么地位。克：观察者就是知识。安：就是知识。
25:38	K: Observer is the knowledge. A: Is the knowledge. But there is the possibility of seeing knowledge not simply negatively, but in co-ordination in true creative relationship. Right.	但确实有可能不是单纯否定地看待知识，而是与真正具有创造性的关系相协调。对的。克：我说过那些了。安：没错。
25:54	K: I have said that. A: Exactly.	克：比方说，我和你是有关系的，这样说要简单一些。
25:57	K: I am related to you, let's say, to make it very simple. I'm related to you, you are my brother, husband, wife, whatever it is, and what place has knowledge as the observer, which is the past, and knowledge is the past, what place has that in our relationship?	我和你有关系，你是我的兄弟、丈夫、妻子或者其他什么人，而作为观察者的知识具有什么地位，观察者是过去，知识就是过去，它在我们的关系中有什么位置？安：如果我们的关系有创造性
26:28	A: If our relationship is creative...	克：它没有。
26:33	K: It is not. Not 'if,' we must take it actually as it is. I am related to you, I am married to you, I am your wife or husband, whatever it is. Now, what is the actuality in that relationship? The actuality, not theoretical actuality, but the actuality is that I am separate from you.	不是“如果”，我们必须如实地看待它。我和你有关系，我和你结婚了，我是你的妻子或者丈夫，或者无论什么人。那么，那个关系中的事实是什么？事实，不是理论上的事实，而是事实上我和你是分离的。安：事实必定是我们并不是分开的。
27:00	A: The actuality must be that we are not divided.	克：但我们就是分开的。
27:03	K: But we are. I may call you my husband, my wife, but I am concerned with my success, I am concerned with my money, I am concerned with my ambitions, my envy, I am full of me.	我可能把你叫做我的丈夫、我的妻子，但是我关心的是我的成功，我关心的是我的财富，我关心的是我的野心、我的嫉妒，我心里全是我自己。安：是的，我明白这一点，但我现在想确认一下
27:23	A: Yes, I see that, but I want to make sure now that we haven't reached a confusion here.	我们在此并没有混淆什么。克：是的，我们有。安：当我说
27:31	K: Yes, we have. A: When I say that the actuality is that we are not separate, I do not mean to say that, at the phenomenal level, that a dysfunction is occurring. I am fully aware of that. But if we are going to say that the world is me and I am the world...	事实是我们不是分开的，我并不是说，在现象层面上有功能紊乱的情况发生。这一点我很明白。但是如果我们要说世界就是我，我就是世界克：我们只是从理论上这么说，并没有感觉到这一点。
27:49	K: We say it theoretically, we don't feel it.	安：确实。但如果事实就是这样，
27:52	A: Precisely. But if that is the case, that the world is me and I am the world, and this is actual, this is actual...	世界就是我，我就是世界，这是真实的，这是真实的克：只有当我自身没有任何划分的时候，这才是真实的。
28:04	K: This is actual only when I have no division in myself.	安：正是，正是。克：但我是有划分的。
28:08	A: Exactly. Exactly. K: But I have a division.	安：如果我有划分，那么我和别人之间
28:12	A: If I have a division, then there is no relationship between one and the other. K: Therefore one accepts the idea that the world is me and me is the world. That is just an idea. Look, sir.	就没有关系了。克：因此一个人接受了 “世界就是我，我就是世界”这个理念。那只是一个理念。你看看，先生。安：是的，我明白。但是如果以及当它发生了
28:32	A: Yes, I understand. But if and when it happens...	克：等等。只是来看看我脑子里发生了什么。
28:35	K: Wait. Just see what takes place in my mind. I make a statement of that kind: 'the world is you and you are the world'. The mind then translates it into an idea, into a concept, and tries to live according to that concept.	我说了这样一句话： “世界就是你，你就是世界”。心智接着把它翻译成了一个理念、一个概念，并且试着依照那个概念而活。安：正是。
28:56	A: Exactly.	克：它从现实中抽离出去了。
28:57	K: It has abstracted from reality.	安：这就是破坏性意义上的知识。
29:04	A: This is knowledge in the destructive sense.	克：我不会说它是破坏性的或是积极的。
29:09	K: I won't call it destructive or positive. This is what is going on.	这就是所发生的事情。安：哦，那让我们说从这里出现的问题就是地狱。
29:13	A: Well, let's say the issue from it is hell.	克：是的。所以，在我与你的关系中
29:17	K: Yes. So, in my relationship with you what place has knowledge, the past, the image, - which is the observer, all that is the observer - what place has the observer in our relationship? Actually the observer is the factor of division.	知识、过去、意象有什么位置， ——这就是观察者，所有这些都是观察者—— 在我们的关系中观察者有什么位置？事实上观察者就是分裂的因素。安：没错。
29:44	A: Right.	克：因此就有了你和我之间的冲突，
29:46	K: And therefore the conflict between you and me, this is what is going on in the world everyday.	这是世界上每天都在上演的。安：那么我不得不说，在我看来，
29:53	A: Then one would have to say, it seems to me, following the conversation point by point, that the place of this observer, - understood as you have pointed it out - is the point of dysrelationship.	一个点一个点地跟随这个谈话，观察者的位置， ——正像你指出的那样理解—— 就是关系紊乱的关键点。克：就是实际上
30:13	K: Is the point where there is really actually no relationship at all. I may sleep with my wife, and so on, so on, but actually there is no relationship, because I have my own pursuits, my own ambitions, all the idiosyncrasies, and so on, and she has hers, so we are always separate and therefore always in battle with each other. Which means the observer, as the past, is the factor of division.	一点关系也没有的那个点。我可能和我妻子睡在一起，等等，等等，但事实上我们之间没有关系，因为我有我自己的追求，我自己的野心，所有的特质，等等，她也有她的，所以我们一直是分开的，因此彼此之间一直在征战不休。这意味着观察者，也就是过去，是分裂的因素。安：是的，我只是想确认一下
30:58	A: Yes, I was just wanting to be sure that the phrase is the place... of 'what is the place of the observer' was understood in the context of what we are saying. We have made the statement that there is such a thing.	这句话 “观察者有什么位置”里面所说的位置一词在我们上下文的语境中得到了理解。我们已经说了确实有位置这回事。克：是的。安：可它在这里的位置，在我看来并不是
31:12	K: Yes.	我们通常说的它占着一个位置那个意思。
31:13	A: Well, its place as such would seem to me not to be what we usually mean by its occupying a place.	克：没错。安：我们在这儿谈的是一种
31:22	K: Yes. A: We are talking rather about an activity here that is profoundly disordered.	极度混乱的行为。克：先生，只要有观察者，
31:30	K: Sir, as long as there is the observer, there must be conflict in relationship.	关系中就一定有冲突。安：是的，我明白这一点。克：等一等，看看发生了什么。
31:39	A: Yes, I follow that. K: Wait, wait, see what happens. I make a statement of that kind, someone will translate it into an idea, into a concept and say, 'How am I to live that concept?' The fact is he doesn't observe himself as the observer.	我作出了一个那样的说法，有人会把它翻译成一个理念、一个概念，然后说：“我该如何活出这个概念？” 事实是他没有观察到自己就是那个观察者。安：没错。
32:03	A: That's right. That's right. He is the observer looking out there, making a distinction between himself...	没错。他就是那个正在向外看的观察者，划分了他自己克：……和那个说法。安：对的，进行了一个划分。
32:09	K: ...and the statement. A: Right. Making a division.	克：划分。
32:13	K: Division. Has the observer any place at all in relationship? I say no, the moment he comes into existence in relationship, there is no relationship.	观察者在关系中有任何位置吗？我说没有，一旦他存在于关系之中，关系就不存在了。安：关系就不存在了。克：不存在了。
32:35	A: The relationship is not. K: Is not.	安：它不是什么紊乱关系中的东西。
32:38	A: It is not something that is in dysrelationship.	克：是的，没错。安：我们正在谈论某个
32:42	K: Yes, that's right. A: We are talking about something, that in fact doesn't even exist. K: Exist. Therefore we have to go into the question why human beings in their relationship with other human beings are so violent, because that is spreading throughout the world. I was told the other day in India, a mother came to see me, very Brahmanical family, very cultured, and all the rest of it. Her son, who is six, when she asked him to do something he took up a stick and began to hit her. A thing unknown. You follow, sir? The idea that you should hit your mother is traditionally something incredible! And this boy did it. And I said, 'See what is the fact', we went into it, she understood. So, to understand violence, one has to understand division.	事实上甚至不存在的东西。克：嗯。因此我们有必要深入探讨这个问题：为什么人类在他们与其他人的关系中那么的暴力，因为这正在世界各处蔓延着。前几天在印度有人跟我说，一个母亲来见我，她来自一个非常正统的婆罗门家庭，很有教养，以及诸如此类。她的儿子，六岁大了，当她要求儿子去做一件事的时候，儿子拿起一根棍子开始打她。真是一件从未听说过的事。你明白吗，先生？你可以打你母亲，这个想法在传统上是难以置信的！但是这个男孩就这么做了。然后我说：“看看事实是什么”，我们探究它，她明白了。所以，为了理解暴力，你就必须理解划分。安：划分已经在那里了。克：在那里了。
33:56	A: The division was already there. K: There.	安：否则他是不会捡起那根棍子的。
33:59	A: Otherwise he would not have picked up the stick.	克：国家间的划分，先生，你明白吗？
34:02	K: Division between nations, you follow, sir? This race for armaments is one of the factors of violence. Which is, I am calling myself American and he is calling himself Russian, or Hindu, or whatever it is. This division is the factor of real violence and hatred. When a mind sees that, it cuts away all division in himself. He is no longer a Hindu, American, Russian. He is a human being with his problems which he is then trying to solve, not in terms of India, or America, or Russia. So we come to the point: can the mind be free in relationship, which means orderly, not chaotic, orderly.	军备竞赛是暴力的一个因素。那就是，我叫我自己是美国人他叫他自己是俄罗斯人，或者印度人，或者无论什么称呼。这种划分是真正的暴力和仇恨的因素。当心智看到了这一点，它会切掉自身之中所有的划分。他不再是印度人、美国人、俄罗斯人。他是一个人，有着自己的问题，正努力想要解决，但无关印度、美国或是俄罗斯。因此我们到了这一点上：心智能不能在关系中获得自由，也就是说是有序的，不是混乱的，是有序的。安：它必须如此，否则你就不能用
35:12	A: It has to be, otherwise you couldn't use the word 'relationship'. K: No. No. So can the mind be free of that? Free of the observer?	“关系”这个词了。克：是的，没错。那么心智可以从中解脱吗？可以摆脱观察者吗？安：如果不能，那就没有希望了。克：这就是全部的重点。
35:25	A: If not, there is no hope. K: That's the whole point.	安：如果不能，我们就吃尽苦头了。克：是的。
35:29	A: If not, we've had it. K: Yes. And all the escapes, and going off into other religions, doing all kinds of tricks, has no meaning. Now, this demands a great deal of perception, insight, into the fact of your life: how one lives one's life. After all, philosophy means the love of truth, love of wisdom, not the love of some abstraction.	而所有的逃脱，逃到别的宗教那里去，玩各种各样的把戏，都没有任何意义。而这需要深入的感知、洞察力，洞察你生活的事实：一个人是如何过自己的生活的。毕竟，哲学的意思是热爱真理，热爱智慧，而不是热爱一些抽象的概念。安：噢，不，不，不。
36:03	A: Oh no, no, no. Wisdom is supremely practical.	智慧是极为实用的。克：实用的。所以它就在这里。
36:07	K: Practical. Therefore here it is. That is, can a human being live in relationship in freedom and yet operate in the field of knowledge?	也就是说，一个人是否可以自由地生活在关系中，而同时又在知识的领域中运作？安：同时又在知识的领域中运作，是的。
36:24	A: And yet operate in the field of knowledge, yes.	克：而且是绝对有序的，
36:26	K: And be absolutely orderly. Otherwise it is not freedom. Because order means virtue.	否则就不是自由了，因为秩序就意味着美德。安：是的，是的。
36:40	A: Yes, yes.	克：如今这个时代，美德这在世界上是不存在的。
36:42	K: Which doesn't exist in the world at the present time. There is no sense of virtue in anything. Then we repeat. Virtue is a creative thing, is a living thing, is a moving thing.	在任何事中都没有美德。于是我们重复。美德是创造性的事物，是活的东西，是动的东西。安：我在想，就在你说到美德的时候，
36:57	A: I am thinking, as you are saying this about virtue, which is really power, which is really the ability to act, and if I am following you correctly, what you are really saying, - and please correct me if I am way off here - what you are really saying is that the ability to act in the strict sense which must be creative, otherwise it's not an action, but it is simply a reaction.	美德实际上就是力量，实际上就是行动的能力，如果我理解正确的话，你实际上说的是， ——如果我错了请指正—— 你实际上说的是严格意义上的行动力必须是有创造性的，否则它就不是一个行动，而只是一个反应。克：一种重复。安：一种重复。
37:43	K: A repetition. A: A repetition. That the ability to act, or virtue, as you put it, bears with it necessarily the implication of order. It must. It seems to me no way out of that. Yes, I just wanted to recover that a step at a time.	行动的能力，或者是美德，像你所说的，必定包含着秩序的意思。它必定如此。在我看来别无出路。是的，我只是想要一步步地复原你的意思。克：那我可以回来接着说吗？
38:10	K: So can I come back? In human relationship, as it exists now, - we are looking at that what actually is - in that human relationship there is conflict, sexual violence, and so on, so on, so on, every kind of violence. Now, can man live at total peace, otherwise he is not creative, in human relationship, because that is the basis of all life.	在人类关系中，就像目前存在的那样， ——我们在看事实究竟是什么—— 在人与人的关系中，有冲突，有性暴力，等等，等等，等等，各种形式的暴力。那么，人能否完全和平地活着，否则他在人类关系中就没有创造性，因为关系是所有生活的基础。安：我对你这样的探究方式很是着迷。
38:55	A: I'm very taken with the way you have pursued this. I noticed that, when we asked this question 'is it possible that..'. the reference for it is always a totality. And the reference over here is a fragment, or a fragmentation, or a division. Never once have you said that the passage from one to the other is a movement that even exists, you see.	我发现，当我们问这个问题 “……是否可能”时，问题的参照总是整体。而这里的参照是一个片段，或者一个碎片，或者一个部分。你从没有说过从一个到另一个（指碎片和整体之间）的通道是一个哪怕存在着的运动，你知道的。克：没错，它不可能存在。没错，没错。绝对是这样。
39:32	K: No. It can't exist. Quite, quite. Absolutely.	安：我想，克里希那穆提先生，
39:35	A: I think, Mr. Krishnamurti, that nothing is so difficult to grasp as this statement that you have made. There is nothing that we are taught, from childhood up, to render such a possibility. A matter for taking seriously, because when... - one doesn't like to make sweeping statements about the way everybody has been educated - but I'm thinking of myself, from a child upward, all the way through graduate school, accumulating a lot of this knowledge that you have been talking about. I don't remember anybody saying to me, or even pointing me to a literature that so categorically makes this distinction between one and the other as... - in terms of each other - not accessible to each other through passage.	没有什么像你刚刚的说法那么难以领会。从小到大，从来没人教过我们提出这样的一种可能性。一件需要严肃对待的事情，因为当……——我不想对我们每个人的受教育方式给出绝对的说法—— 但是我想到了我自己，从小到大，一直到研究院，积累着很多这样的知识，就是你谈到的那种知识。我不记得有任何人跟我说过，或者哪怕是让我去看一本书，能够如此直截了当地指出一个和另一个之间的这种区别 ——就彼此而言—— 它们彼此之间没有任何可通达的道路。克：没有，没有，没有，很对，很对。
41:00	K: No. No, no, quite, quite.	安：那么，我对你的理解是正确的，是吗？
41:02	A: Now, I'm correct in understanding you there, aren't I?	克：很对。
41:05	K: Quite right.	安：可能这就是个题外话。
41:08	A: Maybe I could just say this as an aside.	克：碎片无法成为整体。
41:10	K: The fragment can't become the whole.	安：没错。碎片无法成为整体，
41:13	A: No. The fragment cannot become the whole, in and of itself.	就其本身而言。克：但是碎片总是试图成为整体。
41:16	K: But the fragment is always trying to become the whole.	安：没错，正是。
41:19	A: Exactly. Exactly. Now, of course, in the years of very serious and devoted contemplation and exploration of this, - which quite clearly you have undertaken with great passion - I suppose it must have occurred to you that the first sight of this, while one is in the condition of the observer, must be very frightening - in the condition of the observer, the thought that there is no passage.	现在，当然，经过数年非常认真地致力于这方面的思考和探究 ——很显然你是抱着极大的热情来从事此事的—— 我想它肯定已经在你身上发生了，那最初的一瞥，当一个人处于观察者的状态时，一定非常的可怕——在观察者的状态下，在没有通道的思想状态下。克：不。但是你看，我从没那样看过这个问题。
41:59	K: No. But you see, I never looked at it that way.	安：请告诉我你是如何看待这个问题的。
42:04	A: Please tell me how you looked at it. Please.	克：从小我就从来不认为我是个印度教徒。
42:11	K: From childhood I never thought I was a Hindu.	安：我明白了。克：当我在英国受教育以及诸如此类的时候，
42:17	A: I see.	我从来没有想过我是在欧洲。
42:18	K: I never thought when I was educated in England and all the rest of it, that I was European. I never was caught in that trap. I don't know how it happened, I was never caught in that trap.	我从没有掉进这个陷阱。我不知道那是如何发生的，我就是从来没有掉进那个陷阱。安：那么，当你很小的时候，
42:33	A: Well, when you were quite little then and your playmates said to you, well now, look, you are a Hindu, what did you say? K: I probably put on Hinduism and all the trappings of Brahmin tradition, but it never penetrated deeply.	你的玩伴告诉你，喂，看看，你是个印度教徒，你是怎么回应的？克：我可能就穿上了印度教的外衣，还有婆罗门传统的所有服饰，但那些从来没有渗透得很深。安：用地方话来说，那就是它从来都没有俘获你。
42:51	A: As we say in the vernacular, it never got to you.	克：它从来没有俘获我，没错。安：我明白了。
42:54	K: It never got to me, that's right. A: I see. That's very remarkable. That's extraordinary. The vast number of people in the world seem to have been got to in respect to this.	那真是很了不起。那非同寻常。世上的绝大多数人似乎在这方面都已经被俘获了。克：我想，这就是为什么，你知道，
43:08	K: That's why, I think, you see, propaganda has become the means of change.	宣传成了改变的手段。安：是的，是的。
43:27	A: Yes. Yes.	克：宣传并不是真理。
43:29	K: Propaganda is not truth. Repetition is not truth.	重复也不是真理。安：它也是暴力的一种形式。克：就是这样。
43:36	A: It's a form of violence too. K: That's just it. So a mind that merely observes doesn't react to what it observes according to its conditioning, which means there is no observer at any time, therefore no division. It happened to me, I don't know how it happened, but it has happened. And, in observing all this, I've seen every human relationship, every kind of human relationship, there is this division and therefore violence. And to me the very essence of non-relationship is the factor of me and you.	所以仅仅在观察的心智不会根据它所受的制约对它观察到的东西作出反应，这就意味着任何时候都没有观察者，因而就没有划分。那在我的身上发生过，我不知道它是如何发生的，但它的确是发生过。通过观察这所有的一切，我看到了所有的人际关系，人与人之间的每一种关系，都有这样的划分，因而有暴力。对我来说非关系的本质就是我和你这个因素。安：我刚刚试着回顾了我个人的历史，
44:31	A: I was just trying to go back in my own personal history and think of when I was a child. I did, while accepting that I was different, I did believe that, I did come to accept that, there was something else, however, that always held me very, very hard to centre in terms of making an ultimate issue of that, and that was an experience I had when I was rowing a boat. I spent some time in Scandinavia as a child, and I used to take a boat out on the fjord every day, and when I would row, I was profoundly moved by the action of the water, when I moved the oar, because I lifted the oar out of the water and there was separation in substance between the water and the oar, but the water, which was necessary for support and for purchase, so that I could propel myself, never lost touch with itself, it always turned into itself without ever having left itself in the beginning. And once in a while I would laugh at myself and say, if anyone catches you looking at this water any longer than you are doing, they will think that you are clear out of your mind. This is the observer talking to himself, of course. But that made such a profound impression on me that I think... I think it was what you might call a little salvation for me, and I never lost that. So maybe there is some relationship between that apprehension, which I think changed my being, and what it is you are talking about as one who never ever suffered this sense of separation at all. Yes. Please go ahead.	想了想我小时候的情形。我确实，在接受我与众不同的同时，我确实相信，我确实认为另外还存在其他的东西，那个东西总是紧紧地把我拉向中心，把它变成了一个终极的问题，那是我在划船时有过的一次体验。我小时候在斯堪的纳维亚住过一段时间，我那时常常每天划船去海湾，而当我准备划的时候，我却被水的流动深深地触动了，当我移动船桨，因为我把船桨举出水面，水和船桨之间就有了物质上的分离， ——那是支撑和抓水所必须的，这样我就能推动自己—— 但水从来没有和自己失去接触，一直都在变回它自己，从没有把自己留在最开始的地方。偶尔我会嘲笑自己说，如果有人发现你看这水再长一点时间的话，他们会认为你明显是疯了。当然，这是观察者在跟他自己说话。但是那给我留下了如此深刻的印象，以致于我想我想你也许会把它叫做我的一次小小救赎，而我从来没有失去过它。所以可能这之间有某种联系，这种领悟， ——我认为它改变了我的存在方式—— 和你所说的一个人从来没有经受过分离感的状态，这两者之间也许有着某种联系。是的，请你继续。克：所以这带我们来到了这一点，先生，不是吗，
46:43	K: So this brings us to the point, sir, doesn't it, can the human mind, which has evolved in separation, in fragmentation...	人类心智是否能够，它一直在分裂中、在破碎中进化安：这就是进化的地方，是的。
47:03	A: This is where evolution is. Yes.	克：……那样的心智能否转变，进行一次重生，
47:05	K: ...can such a mind transform, undergo a regeneration, which is not produced by influence, by propaganda, by threat and punishment, because if it changes because it is going to get a reward...	这重生不是被影响、被宣传、被恐吓和惩罚引发出来的，因为如果它改变只是因为它将得到一个奖励安：那它就没有改变。克：……那它就没有改变。
47:33	A: It hasn't changed. K: ...it hasn't changed. So that is one of the fundamental things which one has to ask and answer it in action, not in words.	因此这是非常根本的事情之一，人需要在行动中来提问和解答它，而不是通过语言。安：用行动。噢，是的。克：也就是：
47:47	A: In action. Oh yes. K: Which is: my mind, the human mind, has evolved in contradiction, in duality - the 'me' and the 'not me' - has evolved in this traditional cleavage, division, fragmentation. Now, can that mind observe this fact, observe without the observer, and only then there is a regeneration. As long as there is an observer observing this, then there is a conflict. I don't know if I make myself clear.	我的心智，人类的心智，一直在矛盾、在二元性中进化 ——“我”和“非我”—— 一直在这传统的分裂、划分、破碎中进化。那么，这个心智能否观察这个事实，没有观察者地观察，只有那时才会有重生。只要还有一个观察者在观察这些，就会有冲突。我不知道我是否讲清楚了。安：是的，很清楚。你在两个层面上都讲的很清楚了。
48:38	A: Yes, you do. You make yourself very clear on two levels. On the level of discourse alone, - which I know is not your major concern - on a level of discourse alone it necessarily follows that it must be the case that this possibility exists, otherwise we would be talking nonsense. But then the agony of the situation at large that we have been describing is simply that whether this can be done or no never occurs to a person, and in the absence of it even occurring, the repetition is going to continue indefinitely and things are going to get worse and worse.	仅在谈话的层面上， ——我知道这不是你主要关注的—— 仅就谈话的层面而言，有必要紧接着说明必须有这种可能性存在的情形，否则我们就是在胡说八道了。但是接下来整个情况带来的极大痛苦就如我们刚刚描述的，简单说来就是这一点是否可以实现，还是说它永远都不会发生在谁身上，而在没发生的情况下，那种重复将会无限期地持续下去，而且情况会变得越来越糟糕。克：先生，困难在于大部分人根本不会听。
49:26	K: Sir, the difficulty is most people won't even listen.	安：我在叹息。我知道是这样。
49:33	A: I'm sighing. I know that.	克：不会听。如果他们愿意听，他们也是带着他们的结论来听的。
49:37	K: Won't listen. If they do listen, they listen with their conclusions. If I am a Communist, I will listen to you up to a point. After that I won't listen to you. And if I am slightly demented, I will listen to you and translate what I hear according to my dementia. A: Exactly.	如果我是个共产主义者，我会听你说到一定的程度。那之后我就不会再听你说了。如果我有那么一点精神错乱，我会听你说，然后把听到的按照我的痴呆情况进行诠释。安：正是。克：所以人必须要极其认真才能倾听。
50:09	K: So one has to be extraordinarily serious to listen. Serious in the sense put aside my peculiar prejudices and idiosyncrasies and listen to what you are saying, because the listening is the miracle: not what shall I do with what you have said.	认真的意思是将我特有的偏见、我的特质放在一边来听你所说的，因为倾听就是奇迹：而不是我该怎样运用你所说的。安：不是我该听什么。
50:38	A: Not what shall I listen to.	克：而是听的行为。安：而是听的行为本身。
50:41	K: But the act of listening. A: But the act of listening itself. We are back to 'ing' where there's listening itself.	存在倾听这个行为本身，这里我们又用到了现在进行时态。克：那需要……我的意思是，你人足够好，所以能听我说，
50:52	K: That requires... I mean, you are good enough to listen to me because you want to find out. But the vast majority say, what are you talking about, I want to go on enjoying myself, so go and talk to somebody else. So, to create an atmosphere, to create an ambience, a feeling that: life is dreadfully serious, my friend, do listen. It's your life, don't waste it, do listen. To bring about a human being that will listen is the greatest importance, because we don't want to listen. It's too disturbing.	因为你想弄清楚我在说什么。但是绝大多数人说，你在说些什么啊，我想要继续自娱自乐，所以你去和别人说吧。所以，要创造一个氛围，创造一种气氛、一种感觉：生活是极其严肃的，我的朋友，请听听吧。这是你的生活，不要浪费它，请听一听。去造就一个愿意倾听的人是最重要的，因为我们都不想听。这太令人不安了。安：我明白。我有时在课堂上尝试强调这一点。
51:41	A: I understand. I have tried sometimes in class to make this very point. And sometimes I suggest that we should watch the animal, especially the wild animal, because if it's not listening it's likely dead.	有时我建议我们应该去看看动物，尤其是野生动物，因为如果它不听就很容易死掉。克：死掉，是的，先生。安：它们展现出非同寻常的关注，
52:03	K: Dead, yes, sir.	它们生命的每一个瞬间都是危机。
52:05	A: There is this extraordinary attention that it makes, and every instant of its life is a crisis.	克：绝对是的。
52:17	K: Absolutely.	安：你知道发生的是什么，它们的眼睛显示它们总是在思考。
52:20	A: And you know what happens, the eyes out there show in the main that they are thinking I am talking about animal psychology. I'm not talking about psychology at all, I'm talking about what is the case which is either-or, and there isn't any way to get from either to or. That's what I mean. So I think I understand you.	我说的是动物心理学。我根本没说心理学，我说的是非此即彼的情况，而且没有任何办法可以由此及彼。那就是我的意思。所以我想我理解你了。克：在美国正在发生的情况是，
52:41	K: In America what is happening now, as I observe it - I may be mistaken - they are not serious. They are playing with new things, something entertaining, go from one thing to the other. And they think this is searching.	根据我的观察——我可能弄错了—— 他们一点都不认真。他们把玩着新事物，令人愉快的事情，从一件事到另一件事。而他们认为这就是追求。安：追求！
53:06	A: Searching!	克：追求，探询，但是他们困在了每一个当中。安：是的。
53:09	K: Searching, asking, but they get trapped in each one of them. A: Yes.	克：到了最后他们除了灰烬什么也没剩下。
53:15	K: And at the end of it they have nothing but ashes. So it is becoming more and more difficult for human beings to be serious, to listen, to see what they are, not what they should be.	所以这就变得越来越难了 ——让人们认真起来，去倾听，去看看他们实际如何，而不是他们应该如何。安：没错，实际情况是什么。克：现状。
53:36	A: No. What is the case. K: What is.	安：正是。克：那就是说：“请务必倾听五分钟！”
53:38	A: Exactly.	在这次谈话中，你正在倾听，
53:39	K: That means: 'please do listen for five minutes!' In this conversation you are listening, because you are interested, you want to find out, but the vast majority of people say, for God's sake, leave me alone, I have my little house, my wife, my car, my yacht, or whatever it is, for God's sake, don't change anything as long as I live.	因为你感兴趣，你想要搞清楚，但是绝大部分人会说，看在上帝的份上，不要打扰我，我有我的小房子，我的妻子，我的车子，我的游艇，诸如此类，看在上帝的份上，在我有生之年不要改变任何事。安：你知道，回到我确实了解的事情上，
54:13	A: You know, going back to what I do know something about, namely the Academy, because I am situated there in terms of day-to-day activity. I've often remarked to myself in attending conferences, where papers are read, that nobody is listening. It's one long monologue. And after a while you get the feeling that it really is a shocking waste of time. And even to sit down and have coffee, the discussion, say, between classes, usually runs on the basis of babble, we are just talking about things that we are not genuinely interested, in order to fill up space. This, however, is far more serious a matter than simply a description of what's going on.	也就是研究院，因为从日常活动上来讲我就处在那个位置上。参加会议时，当论文读过之后，我常常自己作出评论，但是没有人听。那是一段很长的独白。然后过了一会儿你觉得那真是一种令人震惊的时间的浪费。甚至是坐下来喝杯咖啡，比如说，在课间的讨论，通常也是在胡言乱语的基础上进行的，我们只谈论一些我们并不真正感兴趣的事情，就为了填补空白。然而，这是一件比单纯描述发生了什么要严肃得多的事情。克：我感觉，这是一件生死攸关的事情。
55:13	K: It's a matter, I feel, of life and death. If the house is burning, I've got to do something. It isn't I am going to discuss who burned the house.	如果房子着了火，我必须要做点什么，而不是去讨论是谁放火烧了房子。安：没错，不是。克：他的头发是什么颜色，
55:25	A: No. No. K: What colour his hair was, whether it was black or white or purple. I want to put that fire out.	是黑色、白色还是紫色。我想把火扑灭。安：或者：假设如此这般没有发生，那这房子就不会着火。
55:32	A: Or: if such and such had not happened the house would not be burning. Right. I know, I know. K: And I feel it is so urgent, because I see it in India, I see in Europe and America, everywhere I go, this sense of slackness, sense of, you know, despair, and sense of hopeless activity that is going on. So to come back to what we are saying, relationship is the highest importance. When in that relationship there is conflict, we produce a society which will further that conflict, through education, through national sovereignties, through all the rest of it that is going on in the world. So, a serious man, serious in the sense who is really concerned, committed, must give his total attention to this question of relationship, freedom and knowledge.	没错。我明白，我明白。克：我感觉这非常紧急，因为我在印度看到了这种情况，在欧洲和美国也看到了，我去的每个地方都能看到，这种懈怠感，你知道，这种绝望感，还有感觉发生的行为都已无可救药。所以回到我们正在说的，关系是最为重要的。当那关系中有冲突的时候，我们就在制造一个将进一步助长那冲突的社会，通过教育，通过国家主权，通过世界上发生的一切在助长冲突。所以，一个认真的人，他真的关心，真的坚定，这个意义上的认真，就必须付出他全部的注意力，去关注这个关于关系、自由和知识的问题。安：如果我没听错的话，
56:48	A: If I've heard you correctly, and I don't mean by that words that have passed between us, but if I have truly heard you, I've heard something very terrifying: that this disorder that in part we have described has a built-in necessity in it. As long as it persists, it can never change. It can never change. K: Obviously.	我的意思也不是指我们之间交换的语句，而是如果我真的听到了你说的话，我就已经听到了一些非常可怕的事情：我们已经描述过一部分的这种混乱本身有一种固有的紧迫性。只要它还存在，就不可能改变。就不可能改变。克：很明显。安：对它做一些修正…… 克：只会更加混乱。
57:26	A: Any modification of it is... K: Further disorder.	安：……基本上还是老样子。克：基本上还是老样子。安：基本上还是老样子。
57:30	A: ...is more of the same. K: More of the same.	我有这种感觉，而且我希望
57:32	A: More of the same. I have the feeling and I hope I have understood you correctly, that there is a relationship between the starkness of this necessity and the fact that there cannot be a gradual progress or, as a philosopher would put it, something like essential progress, but nevertheless there is some demonic progress that takes place within this disorder, that is not so much a progress as it is a proliferation of the same. Necessarily so. Is that what you've been saying? Necessarily so.	我正确地理解了你的话，那就是以下两者是有关系的：这种明显的必要性和不可能有逐渐的进步这一事实，或者像哲学家会说的必不可少的进步之类的说法，而是会有一些邪恶的进步发生在在这混乱之中，那并不是进步，因为那是相同事物的增生。必然如此。这是你刚刚说的吗？必然如此。克：你知道，“进步”这个词，前几天有人对我说，
58:19	K: You know, that word 'progress', I was told the other day, meant entering into enemy's country fully armed.	意思是全副武装地进入敌人的国家。安：真的吗？
58:29	A: Really? Progress is entering into an enemy's country fully armed. Dear me!	进步是全副武装地进入敌人的国家。天哪！克：先生，这就是正在发生的事情。安：噢，我明白。
58:43	K: Sir, this is what is happening. A: Oh, I know. Next time we converse, the next time, I would like very much, if you would be good enough, to pursue precisely what we have just come to, namely this necessity, and the necessity that produced that statement. K: Yes, quite.	我们下次的谈话，下一次，我很希望能够，如果你觉得可以，继续严谨地讨论我们刚刚进入的话题，也就是这种紧迫性，和产生了那个说法的紧迫性。克：好的，完全可以。