克里希那穆提 - 什么是与他人的交流？

Krishnamurti Subtitles

SD74CA3 - 什么是与他人的交流？
与艾伦·W·安德森博士的第三次对话
美国，加利福尼亚，圣地亚哥
1974年2月19日

0:36	Krishnamurti in Dialogue with Dr. Allan W. Anderson	克里希那穆提与艾伦·W·安德森博士的对话
0:41	J. Krishnamurti was born in South India and educated in England. For the past 40 years he has been speaking in the United States, Europe, India, Australia, and other parts of the world. From the outset of his life's work he repudiated all connections with organised religions and ideologies and said that his only concern was to set man absolutely unconditionally free. He is the author of many books, among them The Awakening of Intelligence, The Urgency of Change, Freedom From the Known, and The Flight of the Eagle. This is one of a series of dialogues between Krishnamurti and Dr. Allan W. Anderson, who is professor of religious studies at San Diego State University where he teaches Indian and Chinese scriptures and the oracular tradition. Dr. Anderson, a published poet, received his degree from Columbia University and the Union Theological Seminary. He has been honoured with the distinguished Teaching Award from the California State University.	J·克里希那穆提出生于印度南部，在英国接受的教育。在过去的40年中，他一直在美国、欧洲、印度、澳大利亚以及世界上的其他国家进行演讲。从他毕生工作伊始，他就切断了与有组织的宗教和意识形态的所有联系，他说，他唯一关心的是使人们无条件地、绝对地自由。他有多部著作，其中包括《智慧的觉醒》、《转变的紧迫性》、《从已知中解脱》和《鹰的翱翔》。本片是克里希那穆提与艾伦·W·安德森博士的系列对话之一，安德森博士是一位宗教研究学的教授，在圣地亚哥州立大学讲授印度和中国的经典，以及传统的神谕文化。安德森博士，是一位出版过作品的诗人，从哥伦比亚大学和纽约协和神学院获得了学位。他还被加利福尼亚州立大学授予了杰出教育奖。
1:46	A: Mr. Krishnamurti, in this series of conversations we have been exploring the general question of the transformation of man. A transformation, which - as you say - is not dependent on knowledge or time. And, as I recall, we arrived at a point that was very crucial, namely the one concerned with relationship and communication. I remember one point in our conversation together that was extremely instructive for me, a point at which, when you asked me a question I began to answer it, and you interrupted me and reminded the viewers and me that the important thing here is not to finish out a theoretical construction, rather to attain to the right beginning point, so that we do not go beyond where we haven't yet begun. This, as I repeat, was extremely instructive for me, and I was thinking, if it is agreeable with you, it would be helpful today, if we could begin at the point of concern for communication and relationship, to go into that question and begin to unravel it.	安：克里希那穆提先生，在这一系列的对话中，我们一直在探索人类的转变这一综合性问题，如你所说，那是一种不依赖于知识或者时间的转变。而据我回忆，我们之前得出了非常重要的一点，也就是关于关系和沟通的那一点。我记得在我们的谈话中有一点对我来说极具启发性，那时，你问了我一个问题，我开始回答，然后你打断我的话，提醒观众和我：这里最重要的事情，不是构建某种理论，而是要站到正确的起点上，这样我们就不会越过我们尚未开始的地方。我再重申一下，这对我来说极具启发性，而且，如果你同意的话，我认为，如果我们今天能够从考虑沟通和关系这一点开始，那将会有助于深入探究并开始解答转变的问题。
3:04	K: Unravel it, quite. I wonder, sir, what that word 'communication' means. To communicate implies not only verbally, but also a listening in which there is a sharing, a thinking together, not accepting something that you or I say, but sharing together, thinking together, creating together - all that is involved in that word 'communicate'. And in that word is implied also the art of listening. The art of listening demands a quality of attention, in which there is real listening, real sense of having an insight as we go along, each second, not at the end, but at the beginning.	克：解答这个问题，没错。我想知道，先生，“沟通”一词意味着什么。沟通不仅意味着语言表达，而且意味着一种倾听，在这种倾听中存在着一种分享、一种共同的思考，不是接受你或者我说的东西，而是一起分享，一起思考，一起创造， ——所有这些都包含在“沟通”这个词当中。从而在这个词里面也隐含着倾听的艺术。这种倾听的艺术需要一种全然关注的品质，在这种关注中，在我们探讨的过程中就存在着真正的倾听，真正的洞察感。每一秒都有，不是在最后而是在开始时就存在。
4:36	A: So that we are both... K: Walking together all the time.	安：这样我们两个…… 克：就始终在并肩而行。
4:40	A: Yes, yes, right. There is a concurrent activity. Not one making a statement, the other thinking about it and then saying, 'I agree, I don't agree, I accept, I don't accept, these are the reasons I don't accept, these are the reasons I do', but we are walking together. K: Journeying, walking together, on the same path... A: Side by side. Yes.	安：是的，是的，对。存在一种同时发生的行动。不是一个人做陈述，其他人思考这个陈述然后说：“我同意，我不同意，我接受，我不接受，这些是我不接受的理由，这些是我接受的理由，” 而是我们在同行。克：一同踏上旅途，结伴同行，走在同一条路上…… 安：肩并肩。是的。
5:04	K: ...on the same road, with the same attention, with the same intensity, at the same time, otherwise there is no communication.	克：……在同一条路上，带着同样的关注，带着同样的热情，而且同时进行，否则，就不存在沟通。
5:14	A: Exactly. Exactly.	安：正是，正是。
5:15	K: Communication implies there must be at the same level, at the same time, with the same intensity, we are walking together, we are thinking together, we are observing together, sharing together.	克：沟通意味着沟通双方必须处于同一个层面，在同一时刻，带着同样的热情，我们在同行，我们在一起思考，我们在一起观察，在一起分享。
5:33	A: Would you say that this requires an activity that underlies the speaking together, or does one come to the activity after one has started to speak together?	安：你是说这种沟通需要一种活动来作为一起探讨的基础，还是说，一个人先开始这种活动，随后另一个人再加入到这个活动中？
5:48	K: No, sir. We are saying, what is the art of listening, aren't we? The art of listening implies, doesn't it, that there is not only the verbal understanding between you and me, because we are both speaking English and we know the meaning of each word, more or less, and at the same time we are sharing the problem together, sharing the issue together.	克：不，先生。我们在说的是，什么是倾听的艺术，不是吗？倾听的艺术意味着，不是吗，在你和我之间不仅存在语言上的理解，因为我们都说英文，我们多多少少能知道每一个单词的意思，而且，我们同时也在共同分享难题，在一起分担问题。
6:27	A: Because, as you said, it's a matter of life and death.	安：因为，如你所说，这是生死攸关的问题。
6:30	K: If you and I are both serious, we are sharing the thing. So, in communication there is not only a verbal communication, but there is a non-verbal communication, which really comes into being, or which happens, when one has the art of really listening to somebody, in which there is no acceptance, no denial, or comparison, or judgement, just the act of listening.	克：如果你和我都是认真的，我们就是在分担这件事。因此，在沟通中不仅存在语言上的沟通，而且存在非语言上的沟通，这种沟通真正产生于或者说发生在一个人真正掌握了倾听的艺术之时，在这个过程中没有接受，没有拒绝，也没有比较或者评判，只存在倾听的行为。
7:14	A: I wonder whether I am on the right track here, if I suggest that there is a relation that is very deep here between communication and what we call in English 'communion'.	安：我想知道我是否在正确的思路上，如果我提出在沟通和英文里的“交流”之间存在着一种很深的关联的话。
7:30	K: Communion, yes.	克：交流，对。
7:32	A: So that if we are in communion, our chance of communicating	安：因而，如果我们在交流，我们的沟通机会
7:38	K: ...becomes simpler. A: Right!	克：……就变得更易于把握。安：是的！
7:41	K: Now, to be in communion with each other both of us must be serious about the same problem, at the same time, with the same passion. Otherwise there is no communication.	克：那么，为了能够彼此交流，我们两人必须同时对同样的问题以同样的热情保持认真的态度。否则，就不存在沟通。
7:59	A: Exactly.	安：正是。
8:00	K: If you are not interested in what is being said, you will think of something else and communication stops. So there is a verbal communication and a non-verbal communication. They are both operating at the same time.	克：如果你对谈话内容不感兴趣，你会想起其他的事情，从而沟通就停止了。所以，既有一种语言上的沟通，又有一种非语言上的沟通。它们两者在同时进行。
8:19	A: One does not precede the other. Or follow upon the other. Yes, they move together.	安：一个不能先于另一个，也不能紧随另一个。没错，它们一起进行着。
8:28	K: Which means that each of us, being serious, gives our attention completely to the issue.	克：这意味着我们每一个人，都处于认真的状态，对问题给予全然的关注。
8:41	A: That act of seriousness that takes place then requires the utmost devoted attention.	安：这时所发生的认真的行为需要付出极大的注意力。
8:52	K: Sir, a man who is really serious lives, not the man who is flippant or merely wanting to be entertained - he does not live.	克：先生，一个真正认真的人才是活着的，不是那种轻浮的或仅仅想消遣的人, ——那种人没有活着。
9:07	A: The general notion of being serious about something generally suggests either undergoing some pain, or I'm serious about something in order to get something else. These two things, as a rule, are what persons imagine by seriousness. As a matter of fact, we often hear this expression, 'Don't look so serious', don't we? K: Yes.	安：“对某事认真”这个概念通常意味着，或者经历着某种痛苦，或者我对某些事情认真是为了得到另外的东西。作为规则，这两者都是人们看到“认真”一词时就会想到的。实际上，我们经常听到这种说法：“不要看起来这么认真，” 不是吗？克：是的。
9:40	A: It's as though we fear something about the serious.	安：仿佛我们对认真有某种恐惧。
9:44	K: Sir, look! As we said yesterday, the world is in a mess, and it's my responsibility, living in this world as a human being who has created this mess, it's my responsibility to be serious in the resolution of this problem. I am serious. It doesn't mean I am long faced, I am miserable, unhappy, or I want something out of it. It has got to be solved! It's like if one has cancer, one is serious about it, you don't play around with it.	克：先生，你瞧！如我们昨天所说，世界处于混乱之中，作为生活在这个世界上制造了这种混乱的人类的一员，我有责任认真地去解决这个难题。我认真，这并不意味着我愁眉苦脸，我悲惨、不幸福，或者我想从中得到什么。问题必须得到解决！就像，如果一个人患了癌症，他就会认真对待这个事情，就不会把它当儿戏。
10:28	A: Action in relation to this seriousness then is instantaneous.	安：这时，具备这种认真的行动就立刻会发生。
10:33	K: Obviously! A: Yes. This raises - not an additional question, I don't mean to go beyond where we haven't begun - but time assumes for the serious person something very different for his undergoing than it would seem to be for the unserious person. One would not have then the feeling of something being dragged out. Or, as we say in English, time that has to be put in. K: Put in, quite.	克：显然如此！安：是的。这便引出了一个问题——这不是一个额外的问题，我不是要越过我们尚未开始的地方—— 但就个人经历来说，时间对于认真的人和对于不认真的人所呈现出来的意义是截然不同的。那时一个人不会有事情被拖延的感觉，或者，像我们在英语中说的，必须得投入时间。克：投入，的确。
11:12	A: As a matter of fact, in this concurrent communication, in which communion is abidingly present, time as such would not in any way oppress.	安：实际上，在这种同时进行的沟通中，交流永远处于现在，这种时间无论如何都不会让人有压迫感。
11:33	K: No, sir, no, sir. Quite right. Like we see, sir, I am trying to see what it means to be serious. The intent, the urge, the feeling of total responsibility, the feeling of action, the doing, not 'I will do'. All that is implied in that word 'seriousness'. At least I'll put all those things into that word.	克：没错，先生，是的，先生。非常正确。如我们看到的，先生，我试图去弄明白认真意味着什么。意图，紧迫感，完全的责任感，行动的感觉，去做，而不是“我将要去做”。所有这些都隐含在“认真”这个词当中。至少，我会将上述这些都归到这个词当中。
12:22	A: Could we look for a moment at one of them that you put into them: responsibility, able to be responsive?	安：我们能不能找到一个时刻，在这个时刻你将责任、“能够去负责”这些含义放进这个词当中？
12:35	K: That's right. To respond adequately.	克：对。充分地做出回应。
12:40	A: Yes. To respond adequately. K: To any challenge. The challenge now is that the world is in a mess, confusion, sorrow and everything, violence, and all that. I must, as a human being who has created this thing, I must respond adequately. The adequacy depends on my seriousness in that sense, on my observation of the chaos, and responding not according to my prejudices, my inclination or tendencies, or pleasures, or fears, but responding to the problem, not according to my translation of the problem.	安：是的。充分地回应。克：回应一切挑战。目前的挑战是世界正处于混乱、困惑、悲痛、暴力以及诸如此类的境地中。作为制造了这一切的人类的一员，我必须作出充分的回应。这种充分性取决于我在上述这种意义上的认真，取决于我对混乱的观察，我不是按照我的偏见、我的倾向或者癖好、快乐、恐惧来作出反应的，我是针对问题而不是根据我对问题的解读进行反应的。
13:38	A: Yes. I am just thinking as you are speaking about how difficult it is to communicate this to the person who is thinking that the way adequately to respond to this chaos is to have a plan for it, which one superimposes on it. And that's exactly what we assume, and if the plan doesn't work out, we blame ourselves.	安：是的。如你所讲的，我只是在想，让那些认为对这种混乱进行充分反应的方式就是做出针对性计划 ——而这增加了混乱——的人明白这点，是多么困难的事情。我们正是那样假定的，而一旦计划未能奏效，我们便会责怪自己。
14:17	K: Or change the plan. A: Or we change the plan, yes.	克：或者改变计划。安：或者我们改变计划，是的。
14:20	K: But we don't respond to the challenge. We respond according to our conclusion about the problem.	克：但我们不去回应挑战。我们按照我们对问题的结论作出反应。
14:30	A: Exactly.	安：正是。
14:31	K: Therefore, it means really, sir, if we can explore it a little more, the observer is the observed.	克：因此，先生，如果我们再稍微深入一些探讨的话，那实际上就意味着观察者即被观察之物。
14:44	A: Therefore the change, if it comes, is total, not partial. One is no longer outside what he is operating upon.	安：所以，改变如果发生了，那便是全部而不是部分的改变。一个人不再位于他正在作用的对象之外。克：你说的对。
14:54	K: That's right.	安：并且他所作用的对象也不在他自身之外。
14:55	A: And what he is operating upon is not outside himself.	克：因为，如我们昨天所说
14:59	K: Because, as we said yesterday - it's very interesting, if we go into it rather deeply - the world is me and I am the world. That is not intellectual or emotional, but a fact. Now, when I approach the problem, the chaos, the misery, the suffering, the violence - all that, I approach it with my conclusions, with my fears, with my despairs. I don't look at the problem.	——如果我们非常深入地探讨下去，会很有趣—— 世界就是我，而我就是世界。这不是智力上的或者情感上的说法，而是一个事实。然而，当我着手解决难题、混乱、不幸、痛苦、暴力——所有这些时，我却带着我的结论、我的恐惧、我的绝望来着手。我并没有去看问题本身。
15:38	A: Would you think it possible to put it this way that one doesn't make room for the problem.	安：你认为是否可以这样表达：一个人没有为问题留出空间？
15:50	K: Yes. Yes, put it any way. Yes. A: Would that be all right?	克：可以，可以，以任何方式表达。安：这么说可以吗？
15:55	K: Sir, let's look at this. As a human being, one has created this, this misery, which is called the society in which we live, an immoral society.	克：先生，让我们来看一下。作为人类，我们制造了这些痛苦，这就是我们生活于其中的社会，一个不道德的社会。
16:15	A: Oh yes! K: Completely immoral! As a human being, one has created that. But that human being looking at it separates himself and says, 'I must do something about it'. The 'it' is me!	安：噢，是的！克：完全不道德！作为人类，我们每一个人一手造就了这些。但是，人们看到了这种状况，却把自己与那些事情划清界限，并且说， “我必须对它做些什么”。而那个“它”就是我！
16:39	A: Some people respond to that this way. They say, 'Look, if I am truly serious, I am truly responsible, I make this act, and there comes between me and the world this confluent relationship, which is total. All the things that are going on out there that are atrocious, - let's say, 2,500 miles away - don't stop. Therefore, how can I say that the whole world is me and I am the whole world?' This objection comes up again and again. I am interested to know what your reply to that would be.	安：有些人是以这种方式回应的。他们说， “你看，如果我确实认真，确实是负责任的，我采取这种行动，我和世界之间就产生了这种融合性的关系，这种关系是完整的。但是在别处——比方说，2500英里以外—— 发生的所有那些残暴的事情，并没有停止。所以，我怎么能说整个世界就是我，我就是整个世界？” 这种反驳意见不断出现。我很有兴趣知道你会如何回答。克：先生，你看。
17:30	K: Sir, look. We are human beings irrespective of our labels: English, French, German, all the rest of it. A human being living in America or in India has the problems of relationship, of suffering, of jealousy, envy, greed, ambition, imitation, conformity, and all that are our problems, common to both of us. And when I say, the world is me and me is the world and the world I am, I see that as a reality, not as a concept. Now, my responsibility to the challenge, to be adequate, must be not in terms of what I think, but what the problem is.	我们都是人类，不论我们被贴上了什么标签：英国人，法国人，德国人，诸如此类。居住在美国或者印度的人类都面临着人际关系的问题，痛苦、羡慕、嫉妒、贪婪、野心、模仿、遵从的问题，所有这些都是我们的问题，对我们来说是共同的问题。当我说，世界即我，我即世界，我所是的这个世界，我看到那是一个事实，而不是一个概念。那么，我对于挑战的责任，充分应对的责任，不能取决于“我怎么想”，而是取决于问题是什么。安：是的。我理解你说的，我确定。
18:45	A: Yes. I follow you I'm sure here. I was thinking, while you were saying that, that it might have been possible to answer the question that I posed, and I am posing the question simply because I know some persons who might very well view this who would raise that and who would want to participate with us in this conversation. I wondered whether you might have said that as soon as one puts it that way one has already divorced himself from the issue. That, in the practical order, that question is an interposition that simply does not have a place in the activity that you are talking about. K: Yes, that's right.	当你这么说的时候，我在想，我刚才所提出的问题也许已经有了回答的可能，而我提出那个问题，仅仅是因为我知道有些人也许会很认真地观看这些对话，会提出这个问题，会想参加我们这种谈话。我想知道你是否说过，一个人一旦那样表达，他就已经把自己和问题分开了。再者，在现实生活中，那个问题是一种干扰，它在你所谈论的行动中根本没有什么位置。克：是的，说得对。安：那么这非常有趣，因为这意味着
19:41	A: Now this is very interesting, because it means that the person must suspend his disbelief.	那个人必须暂停他的怀疑。克：或者他的相信。安：或者他的相信。
19:50	K: Or his belief. A: Or his belief.	克：并去观察这件事情。安：并去观察这件事情。
19:54	K: And observe the thing. A: And observe the thing.	克：这种观察无法实现，如果观察者
19:57	K: Which isn't possible if the observer is different from the observed.	与被观察对象有区别的话。安：那么，
20:06	A: Now, would you explore the practical aspect of this with me for a moment? People will say, - who up to this point are listening, it would seem - people at this point will say, 'Yes, but I can't stop it, I think I have an intuition of what you mean' - they will say - 'but the minute that I open myself, or begin to open myself, all these things seem to rush in on me, what I had hoped doesn't seem to take place'. If I understand you correctly, they are really not doing what they claim that they are trying to do. K: That's right. Sir, can we put this question differently? What is a human being to do, confronted with this problem of suffering, chaos, - all that is going on all around us? What is he to do? He approaches it generally with a conclusion, what he should do about it.	你愿意花点时间和我一起探索这个问题的实际层面吗？人们会说， ——到现在为止一直在听的人—— 此时此刻人们会说， “是的，但是我无法终止它，我认为我对你说的有种直觉” ——他们会说—— “但是当我打开自己，或开始打开自己的那一刻，所有这些东西好像都在向我涌来，而我所期望的事情似乎并没有发生。” 如果我正确理解了你的话，他们并没有真的在做他们声称他们在努力做着的事情。克：你说得对。先生，我们可以用不同的方式来表达这个问题吗？面对这个受苦、混乱的难题， ——这一切正在我们周围发生—— 一个人要如何行动呢？他要怎么办？他通常带着一个结论，关于他应该怎么办的结论，去处理问题。安：而这个结论干预他和
21:52	A: And this conclusion is interposed between him...	克：是的，这个结论是导致分离的因素。
21:55	K: Yes, the conclusion is the factor of separation.	安：对。
22:01	A: Right.	克：那么，他能够去观察这个混乱的事实
22:02	K: Now, can he observe the fact of this confusion without any conclusions, without any planning, without any predetermined way of getting out of this chaos? Because his predetermined conclusions, ideas, and so on, are all derived from the past, and the past is trying to resolve the problem, and therefore he is translating it and acting according to his previous conclusions, whereas the fact demands that you look at it; the fact demands that you observe it, that you listen to it. The fact itself will have the answer, you don't have to bring the answer to it. I wonder if I am making myself clear?	而不带着任何结论，不带着任何规划，不带着任何企图脱离混乱的既定方式吗？因为他既定的结论、想法等等，都源于过去，是“过去”在试图解决难题，因此，他是在按照他先前的结论来诠释问题并且行动的，然而事实要求你看着它；事实需要你观察它，你倾听它，事实本身就会给出答案，你不必为它寻找答案。我想知道我是否表达清楚了？安：是的，我真的在非常努力地听。
23:17	A: Yes, I'm listening very, very hard. I really am. I'm afraid, if I am not going beyond where I shouldn't, haven't yet begun, the next question that would naturally arise here, - perhaps you might feel when I raise the question that it is the wrong question - but can one communicate in the sense that we have been unraveling this? One says, 'I don't know'. It doesn't seem to me that I have done this. One says, 'I haven't done this yet'. I can recognise all the things that have been described, that are terrible. I don't recognise all the things that appear to be promised - without suggesting that I am imagining them or projecting them out there. Clearly, if there is to be a change, it has to be a change that is altogether radical. Now, I must start. What do I do?	我担心，如果我没有越过我不该越过的、还没有开始讲到的地方，那么此时自然会浮现出下一个问题 ——当我提出问题时，可能你会觉得我提出的是个错误的问题——但是一个人能够用我们解开这个问题的方式进行沟通吗？一个人说， “我不知道”。在我看来，我还没有做到这点。一个人说，“我还没有做到这点”。我能够认出之前所描述的所有那些可怕的事情。我认出的所有似乎承诺了会发生的事情，都暗示着它们是我想象出来或者投射出来的。显然，如果会发生改变，就必须是完全的彻底的改变，那么我就必须开始。我该做什么呢？克：先生，这里面涉及到两件事，不是吗？
24:37	K: Sir, there are two things involved, aren't there? First, I must learn from the problem, which means I must have a mind that has a quality of humility. It does not come to it and say, 'I know all about it'. What he knows is merely explanations, rational or irrational. He comes to the problem with rational or irrational solutions. Therefore he is not learning from the problem. The problem will reveal an infinite lot of things, if I'm capable of looking at it and learning about it. And for that I must have a sense of humility, and I am saying, 'I don't know, this is a tremendous problem, let me look at it, let me learn about it'. Not I come to it with my conclusions, therefore I have stopped learning about the problem.	首先，我必须从问题中学习，这意味着我必须具备一个拥有谦卑品质的头脑。它不会走过来，说，“我知道全部情况”。他知道的只是各种解释，合理的或不合理的。他来到问题面前，带着合理或不合理的解决方案。因此他不是在从问题中学习。问题会揭示出无穷多的东西，如果我能够真正去看并了解问题的话。为此我必须有一种谦卑感，而且我说，“我不知道，这是一个很大的问题，让我观察它，让我了解它”。而不是我带着我的结论来接近问题，以致于我停止了对问题的了解。安：你是在说
25:57	A: Are you suggesting that this act is a waiting on the problem to reveal itself? K: To reveal. That's right! Therefore, I must be capable of looking at it. I cannot look at it if I've come to it with ideas, with ideations, with mentations, of every kind of conclusion. I must come to it, say, 'Look, what is it?' I must learn from it, not learn according to some professor, some psychologist, some philosopher.	这种行动就是等待问题展现出它自己吗？克：展现自己。说得对！因此，我必须能够观察它。如果我带着自己的想法、观念，带着自己的心理状态，带着各种结论来接近它，我就不能正视它。我必须来到问题面前，说，“看，它是什么？” 我必须从中了解，而不是听从某些教授、心理学家、哲学家所说的。安：那个人有能力这样，一些人可能会
26:45	A: That one has the capacity for this, some persons would...	克：我认为每个人都有这种能力。先生，我们真没用。
26:52	K: I think everybody has. Sir, we are so vain.	安：但是有这种能力并不意味着
26:56	A: But this doesn't mean anything for the doing of what must be done, that there is a capacity.	就会做必须做的事情。克：不，了解就是做！
27:03	K: No, the learning is the doing!	安：完全正确。是的，是的。
27:08	A: Exactly. Yes, yes. I wanted to make that clear, because we comfort ourselves with the curious notion - if I have been following you - that we possess a possibility, and because we possess the possibility we think that someday it will actualise itself perhaps.	我刚才想要搞清楚那点，因为我们总是用奇怪的观念安慰我们自己——如果我理解了你说的话—— 这些观念就是，我们拥有一种可能性，而因为我们拥有这种可能性，我们便认为，这种可能性某一天自己会得以实现。克：非常正确。
27:29	K: Quite right.	安：但是，如果我的两种理解都对的话，
27:30	A: But if I'm correct both ways, no possibility can actualise itself, and in the practical order that never occurs, but somehow it is believed, isn't it?	没有什么可能性可以自己实现，在现实中，这种事情从未发生过，但莫名其妙地，人们对此深信不疑，难道不是吗？克：恐怕是的。安：人们相信这一点。
27:47	K: I'm afraid it is. A: It is believed.	克：先生，实际上特别简单。
27:50	K: Sir, it is really quite simple. There is this misery, confusion, immense sorrow in the world, violence, all that. Human beings have created it. Human beings have built a structure of society which sustains this chaos. That's a fact. Now, a human being comes to it trying to resolve it according to his plan, according to his prejudices, his idiosyncrasies, or knowledge which means he has already understood the problem, whereas the problem is always new. So I must come to it afresh.	这个世界上存在着不幸、混乱和巨大的悲痛，还有暴力，所有这一切。人类制造了这一切。人类建立了一个支撑这些混乱的社会结构。这是一个事实。现在，有个人看到了问题，试图根据他的计划，根据他的偏见、他的习性或者知识来解决问题，这意味着他已经理解了问题。然而，问题总是新的，所以我必须每次重新审视问题。安：多年来，作为一个读者、一个学生、
28:59	A: One of the things that has concerned me for many, many years as a reader, as a student, as one whose daily work involves the study of scriptures, is the recurrent statement that one comes upon, sometimes in a very dramatic form. For instance, take the prophetic ministry of Jesus, where he speaks and he says that they are hearing, but they are not listening, they are observing, but they are not seeing.	一个日常工作包括了研究经典的人困扰我的事情之一是，我经常会遇到一些反复出现的说法，有时候还以一种非常戏剧化的形式出现。例如，在耶稣讲的先知部分，他说，他们听见但是他们没有在倾听，他们观察，但是他们没有看见。克：和做。安：然而
29:55	K: And doing. A: But then... But then, it seems, he does not say 'In order to attain to that, do this'. No. The closest he comes to it is through the analogy with the child, to have faith as a little child. I don't want to talk about words here, because that would be disastrous, - so what is meant by 'faith' here is not something that would be proper to go into - but the analogy with the child suggests that the child is doing something that is lost somewhere along the way in some respect. I'm sure he didn't mean that there is a perfect continuity between the adult and the child. But why is it, over the centuries, that men have said this over and over again, namely, you are not listening, you are not seeing, and then they don't point to an operation, they point to an analogy. Some of them don't even point to an analogy. They just hold up a flower. K: Sir, look!	然而，看起来他并没有说 “为了得到那个，做这个”。没说。他最接近的说法是借助孩子来打比方，像小孩子一样有信念。我不想在这里讨论字眼，因为那将是灾难性的，所以在这里不适合探究“信念”意味着什么，但孩子的类比表明孩子们在做一些我们一路上在某些方面丢掉了的事情，我确定他不是说，在孩子和成人之间有一个完美的衔接。但是为什么数个世纪以来，人类一遍一遍这样说，即，你没有在倾听，你没有看见，而且，他们没有指向某种做法，他们指向一种类比。他们中的某些人甚至没有指向类比。他们只是举起一朵花。克：先生，听着！我们靠语言活着。
31:16	We live on words. Most people live on words. They don't go beyond the word. And what we are talking about is not only the word, the meaning of the word, the communication that exists in using words, but the non-verbal communication, which is having an insight. That is what we are talking about all the time so far. That is, the mind can only have an insight if it is capable of listening. And you do listen when the crisis is right at your doorstep!	大部分人靠语言活着。他们没有超越语言的限制。而我们谈论的不仅仅是词语、词语的含义、用语言进行的沟通，而且包括非语言上的沟通，也就是拥有一种洞察力。这是我们迄今为止一直探讨的。那就是，头脑只有在能够倾听时才会有洞察力。而当危机迫在眉睫时，你确实会倾听！安：现在，我认为我来到了一个实在的点上。
32:07	A: Now, I think I'm at a point here that is solid. Is it that we don't allow ourselves access to the crisis that is there continuously, it isn't a crisis that is episodic?	是否我们不允许自己去接近这种危机，这种危机是持续不断的，不是偶发性的？克：是的。危机是一直在那里。
32:39	K: No. The crisis is always there.	安：对。
32:42	A: Right. We are doing something to shut ourselves off from it, aren't we?	我们一直在设法将自己从危机中隔离出来，不是吗？克：或者我们不知道怎样面对危机。
32:48	K: Or we don't know how to meet it. Either we avoid it, or we don't know how to meet it, or we are indifferent. We have become so callous. All these things, all these three are involved in not facing the crisis, because I am frightened. One is frightened. One says, 'My Lord! I don't know how to deal with it'. So one goes off to an analyst, or to a priest, or picks up a book to see how it can be translated. He becomes irresponsible.	我们要么躲避它，要么不知道怎样面对它，或者我们漠不关心。我们变得麻木冷酷。所有这些，这三种情况都表明我们没有面对危机，因为我被吓坏了。一个人被吓坏了，他说，“主啊，我不知道怎么处理它”。所以他就去找精神分析师，或者找神父，或者找出本书看看危机是如何被诠释的。他变得不负责任。安：或者有时人们会记录这种失望：
33:41	A: Or sometimes people will register the disappointment that things haven't worked out. So why try something new? K: Yes. Of course.	这些东西行不通。所以为什么要尝试新东西？克：是的，当然。安：这会是一种缓冲。
33:50	A: And this would be a buffer.	克：这就是我说的意思。逃避。
33:54	K: That's what I mean. Avoidance. There are so many ways to avoid, clever, cunning, superficial, and very subtle. All that is involved in avoiding an issue. So, what we are trying to say, sir, isn't it, the observer is the past - as we said yesterday. The observer is trying to translate and act according to the past, when the crisis arises. The crisis is always new. Otherwise it's not a crisis. A challenge must be new, is new, and always new. But he translates it according to the past. Now, can he look at that challenge, that crisis, without the response of the past?	存在太多的逃避方式了，聪明的、狡猾的、肤浅的、很微妙的。对问题的逃避就牵涉到所有这些。所以，我们想说的是，先生，难道不是吗，观察者就是“过去”——如我们昨天所说。当危机来临的时候，观察者试图根据过去来解读危机和采取行动。而危机总是新的，否则它就不是危机了。挑战必定是新的，总是新的，但是他根据过去来解读。那么，他能不带着过去的反应去看待那个挑战，那个危机吗? 安：我可以读你书里的一句话吗？
35:00	A: May I read a sentence out of your book? I think that maybe this has a very direct relationship to what we are talking about. It's a sentence which arrested me when I read it. 'Through negation, that thing, which alone is the positive, comes into being'. K: That's right.	我认为这可能和我们正在谈的直接相关。当我读这句话的时候，它吸引了我。 “通过否定，那本身即为肯定的事物就产生了。” 克：是的。安：我可以再读一遍吗？
35:39	A: May I read it again? Through negation, something is done, apparently.	通过否定，有些事情就完成了，显然如此。克：完全正确。安：是的。
35:47	K: Absolutely. A: Right. So we are not leaving it at the point where we are saying, simply, words are of no consequence, therefore I will do something non-verbal, or I will say something, because I never communicate with the non-verbal. That has nothing to do with it. Something must be done. And there is an act. K: Absolutely. Life is action. It isn't just... A: Exactly. Now here- I suppose I should say for our listeners and viewers that this is from 'The Awakening of Intelligence', I think the most recent publication of yours, and it's on page 196 in the chapter on Freedom. 'Through negation... - I take it that's a word for this act. K: Entirely.	所以我们并没有停留在这个说法上—— 简单说来，言语无足轻重，因此我会做一些非语言的事情，或者我会说点什么，因为我从未用“非语言”沟通过。这和它无关。有些事情必须完成。于是就有了行动。克：完全正确。生命就是行动。它不仅…… 安：正是。那么——我认为我应该告知我们的听众和观众这段话是摘自《智慧的觉醒》，我想这是你最近出的书，在196页“论自由”那一章。 “通过否定 ——我认为“否定”是指代这种行为的一个词。克：没错。安：那本身即为肯定的事物
36:44	A: ...that thing which alone is the positive..'. - the word 'alone' came over to me with the force of something unique, something that is not continuous with anything else. 'That thing which alone is the positive comes into being'. There is no temporal hiatus here, so we are back to that thing we began with in our earlier conversations about not being dependent on knowledge and time. Could we look at this negation together for a moment? I have the feeling that, if I have understood this correctly, that unless whatever is that's called negation is not an abiding activity, then communion and communication, and the relationship that we are talking about just simply can never be reached. Is that correct?	——“本身”那个词带着某种独特的力量，某种与其他任何东西都不相连的东西，向我迎面扑来。 “那本身即为肯定的事物产生了。” 这里没有时间间断，所以我们回到，我们在早先的对话中开始谈到的，不依赖知识和时间的那个事物。我们能花点时间看看这种否定吗？我有种感觉，如果我理解正确的话，不论什么被称为否定，除非它是一个持久的活动，否则我们所谈的交流、沟通和关系是永远不可能达到的。是这样的吗？克：完全正确。我可以这样表述吗？
37:52	K: Quite. May I put it this way? I must negate, I mean, negate not intellectually or verbally, actually negate the society in which I live. The implication of immorality, which exists in society, on which society is built, I must negate totally that immorality. That means I live morally. In negating that, the positive is the moral. I don't know if I am... A: Oh yes. I am being quiet, because I want to follow step by step. I don't want to go beyond where we haven't begun.	我必须否定，我的意思是，不是在知识或者语言上否定，而是实际地否定我们生活在其中的社会。不道德的各种含义，存在于社会中，是社会构建的基础，我必须完全否定这种不道德。这意味着我活得有道德。在否定不道德中，肯定的就是道德。我不知道我是否…… 安：是的，表达清楚了。我保持沉默，因为我想要一步一步走。我不想漏掉我们尚未开始触及的。克：我完全否定“要成功”的想法。
38:51	K: I negate totally the idea of success.	安：是的，我完全地否定。克：完全地。
38:58	A: Yes, I negate totally. K: Totally. Not only in the mundane world, not only in the sense of achievement, in a world of money, position, authority, I negate that completely, and I also negate success in the so-called spiritual world.	不仅在世俗的世界里，不仅在成就的意义上，在金钱、地位、权威的世界中，我完全否定这一切，我也在所谓的灵性世界里否定成功。安：是的。相当诱惑人。
39:25	A: Oh yes. Quite the temptation.	克：两者是一样的。只是我称这个为精神上的，
39:29	K: Both are the same. Only I call that spiritual and I call that physical, moral, mundane. So in negating success, achievement, there comes an energy. Through negation there is a tremendous energy to act totally differently, which is not in the field of success, in the field of imitation, conformity, and all that. So, through negation, - I mean actual negation, not just ideal negation - through actual negation of that which is immoral morality comes into being.	称那个为身体的、道德的、世俗的。那么在否定成功、成就中，一种能量就产生了。通过否定，产生了以完全不同方式行动的巨大能量，这不是在成功领域里，不是在模仿、遵从及诸如此类的领域里。因此，通过否定， ——我指的是实际的否定，不是想象中的否定—— 通过对不道德的实际的否定, 道德就产生了。安：这和试图变得有道德完全不同。
40:25	A: Which is altogether different from trying to be moral.	克：当然，试图变得道德就是不道德。
40:28	K: Of course, trying to be moral is immoral.	安：是的。
40:31	A: Yes. May I try to go into this another step? At least it would be a step for me. There is something that I intuit here as a double aspect to this negation. I'd like very much to see whether this is concurrent with your own feeling about this. I was going to say a statement and I stopped myself. My desire for success in itself is a withholding myself from the problem that we talked about, and that itself is a form of negation. I have negated access to myself. I've negated, in other words, I have done violence to what it is that wishes to reveal itself. So I am going to negate then my negation as the observer. This I wanted to make sure. K: You are quite right, sir. When we use the word 'negate', as it is generally understood, it is an act of violence. A: Yes. That's what I was hoping.	对于这点我可以尝试更进一步吗？至少对我来说是进了一步。在这里我的直觉感到有某个东西，这种否定有两个层面。我非常想知道这与你的感受是否一致。我刚刚要做一个陈述，却没有说出来。我对于成功的愿望本身就阻止了我去探究我们所谈论的问题，而这本身就是一种形式的否定。我已否定了通向自我了解的路径。我否定了，换句话说，我暴力地歪曲了自我本来想要展示出来的样子。所以这时我要否定我作为观察者进行的否定。这个我想确认一下。克：你说得很对，先生。当我们用“否定”这个词时，通常会被理解为，是一种暴力的歪曲行为。安：是的。这正是我所希望的。克：它是一种暴力行为。我否定。
42:15	K: It's an act of violence. I negate.	安：是的。克：我置之不理。
42:18	A: Yes. K: I brush it aside. We are using the word 'negate' not in the violent sense, but the understanding of what success implies. The understanding of what success implies. The 'me,' who is separate from you, wanting or desiring success, which will put me in a position of authority, power, prestige. So I am, in negating success, I am negating my desire to be powerful, which I negate only when I have understood the whole process that's involved in achieving success. In achieving success is employed ruthlessness, lack of love, lack of immense consideration for others, and a sense of conformity, imitation, acceptance of the social structure, all that is involved, and the understanding of all that, when I negate success, is not an act of violence. On the contrary, it is an act of tremendous attention.	我们使用“否定”这个词，没有暴力的意味，而是指了解成功意味着什么。对“成功意味着什么”的理解。那个“我”，区别于你的那个“我”，希望或者渴求成功，成功会把我推上拥有权威、权力、名望的位置。所以，在否定成功当中，我就在否定我想成为强者的欲望，而只有当我理解了在取得成功的过程中所涉及的整个过程，我才能否定。在获取成功的过程中，会采用残忍的做法，缺乏爱，缺乏对他人无微不至的关心，其中还有一种遵从感和模仿，对社会结构的接受，这一切都包含其中，对这一切有了理解，当我否定成功时，就不是一种暴力行为。正相反，它是一种有着无限关注的行动。安：我在我自己身上否定了某个事情。
44:01	A: I've negated something in my person.	克：我否定了我自己。安：是的，我否定了我自己。
44:05	K: I've negated myself. A: Right. I've negated myself.	克：那个“我”，区别于你的那个“我”。
44:10	K: The 'me', which is separate from you.	安：正是。克：从而我否定了暴力，
44:14	A: Exactly.	这暴力在有分离时产生。
44:15	K: And therefore I have negated violence which comes about when there is separation.	安：你是不是用“自我否定”一词，
44:24	A: Would you use the term 'self-denial' here, not in the sense of how it has been received down the line, but that if there is anything to what has been stated in the past, could a person, who saw that word 'self-denial', read that word in this context that you are using? K: I'm afraid he wouldn't. Self-denial means sacrifice, pain, lack of understanding.	指的并非人们通常所接受的那种意义，而是说，与过去的某些说法是否有某种关联，一个过去看到过“自我否定”这个词的人，看到你在这个语境下使用这个词，他能读懂吗？克：恐怕他不能。 “自我否定”意味着牺牲、痛苦、缺乏了解。安：但是如果他听到了你说的内容。
44:57	A: But if he heard what you are saying.	克：当你已经理解了这个事情，那为什么还要用另外的词？
45:00	K: Why use another word, when you have understood this thing?	安：哦，可能他想和别人交流。
45:08	A: Well, maybe he'd want to communicate with someone.	克：只是换个词，以便我们都理解
45:14	K: But change the word, so that we both understand the meaning of self-denial. I mean all religions have based their action on self-denial, sacrifice, deny your desire, deny your looking at a woman, or deny riches, take a vow to poverty. You know all of them: vow of poverty, vow of celibacy, and so on. All these are a kind of punishment, a distorting of a clear perception. If I see something clearly, the action is immediate. So to negate implies diligence. The word 'diligence' means giving complete attention to the fact of success - we are taking that word. Giving my whole attention to success, in that attention the whole map of success is revealed.	自我否定的意义。我的意思是，所有的宗教都将他们的行动基于自我否定，牺牲、否定你的欲望，拒绝看一个女人或否定财富、发誓守贫。你知道这些事情：发誓守贫，发誓独身，等等。这些都是一种惩罚，是对清晰感知的扭曲。如果我清晰地看到某个事物，行为就是即刻发生的。因此否定意味着勤奋。 “勤奋”一词意味着对于成功的事实给予全面的注意——我们以“成功”这个词为例。对“成功”付出我全部的注意，在那种注意下，成功的全貌被揭露出来。安：连同它全部的丑恶。克：连同它隐含的所有东西，
46:47	A: With all its horrors.	只有这时，看到即是行动。
46:48	K: With all the things involved in it, and it is only then the seeing is the doing. Then it is finished. And the mind can never revert to success and therefore become bitter, and all the things that follow.	然后它就瓦解了。而头脑永远不可能再回到追逐成功进而痛苦不堪，以及接下来所有的事情。安：你说的是，一旦这件事情发生了就没有退转。
47:07	A: What you are saying is that once this happens there is no reversion. K: It is finished. Of course, not. Say, for instance, sir...	克：结束了。当然，没有退转。举例说，先生安：那不是一个人必须保持的某种东西。
47:18	A: It's not something that one has to keep up.	克：当然，不是。安：那么，好的。我很高兴我们明确了这点。
47:20	K: Of course, not.	克：现在我们以发生过的事情为例。
47:22	A: Well, fine. I'm delighted we've established that.	在1928年，
47:25	K: Now take for instance what happened. In 1928, I happened to be the head of a tremendous organisation, a religious organisation, and I saw around me various religious organisations, sects, Catholic, Protestant, and I saw all trying to find truth. So I said, 'No organisation can lead man to truth'. So I dissolved it. Property, an enormous business. I can never go back to it. When you see something as poison you won't take it again. It isn't that you say, 'By Jove, I've made a mistake. I should go back and...', it is, sir, like seeing danger. When you see danger, you never go near it again.	我碰巧是一个巨大组织的领袖，一个宗教组织的首脑，并且我发现周围有各种不同的宗教组织、派别，天主教的、新教的，我发现他们都试图找到真理。于是我说，“任何组织都不能带领人类找到真理”。所以我解散了它。财产，庞大的事业。我永远不会再回去了。当你看到某个东西是毒药，你就不会再碰它。你不会说，“天啊，我犯了一个错误，我应该回去……” 先生，那就像看到了危险。当你看到了危险，你永远都不会再靠近它。安：我再来谈谈词语，
48:38	A: I hope I won't annoy you by talking about words here again. But you know, so many of the things that you say cast a light on common terms which, for me at least, illuminate them. They sound altogether different from the way they used to be heard. For instance, we say in English, don't we, practice makes perfect. Now, obviously, this can't be the case, if we mean by practice we are repeating something. But if you mean by practice the Greek 'praxis,' which is concerned directly with act, not repetition, but with act, then to say 'it makes perfect' doesn't refer to time at all. It's that, upon the instant the act is performed perfection is. Now I'm sorry I used the word 'instant' again, and I understand why that's awkward, but I think in our communication the concern for the word here is one that surely is productive, because one can open himself to the word, and if one sees the word that way, then it appears there is a whole host of phenomena which suddenly acquire very magical significance. Not magical in the sense of enchantment, but they open a door which, when walked into, immediately situates him in the crisis in such a way that he attains to this that you call the one alone, the unique which comes into being. Which comes into being.	希望不会让你感到厌烦。但是你知道，你谈的很多事情给普通的词语带来了一种光明，至少对我来说，是照亮了它们。它们听起来和过去完全不同。例如，我们在英语里讲，不是吗，练习带来完美（熟能生巧）。然而，很明显，情况不是这样，如果我们说练习是指重复做某个事情的话。但是如果你用希腊语的“实践”（praxis），它就和行动直接相关，不是与重复，而是与行动相关，那么说“它带来完美” 就完全不涉及时间。那就是，行动做出的瞬间，完美就出现了。现在我很抱歉我又用了“瞬间“一词，并且我也理解这为什么显得有些别扭，但我认为在我们的交流中，在这里对于词语的关注肯定是富有成效的，因为一个人能够对词语开放自己，如果一个人能这样看待词语，然后好像就出现了大量突然获得了魔力般的非凡意义的现象。不是在施魔法意义上的魔力，而是它们打开了一扇门，当他走进这扇门时，立刻被置于一个危机之中，此时他达到了那个你称为独一无二的事物，那独一无二的事物就产生了。克：是的。安：那个事物就产生了。克：那么，先生，我们是否可以回到
51:10	K: So, sir, can we now go back, or go forward, to the question of freedom and responsibility in relationship? That's where we left off yesterday.	自由和人际关系中的责任这些问题上去？那是我们昨天中断的地方。安：好的。那是从“论自由”那章引用来的。
51:26	A: Yes. That was quoted from the chapter on freedom.	克：首先，我们能否深入探讨一下
51:33	K: First of all, can we go into this question of what it is to be responsible?	“什么是有责任”这个问题？安：愿闻其详。克：因为我认为，这正是我们在这个世界上、
51:43	A: I should like that.	在正在发生的事情中所缺失的。
51:45	K: Because I think that is what we are missing in this world, in what is happening now. We don't feel responsible. We don't feel we are responsible because the people in position, in authority, politically, religiously, are responsible. We are not. That is the general feeling that is all over the world.	我们没有感到负有责任。我们没有感到自己负有责任，因为在政治、宗教方面拥有地位和权力的人负有责任。我们没有责任。这是全世界普遍的感觉。安：因为那些人被我委派去做某个工作。
52:15	A: Because those over there have been delegated to do a job by me.	克：科学家、政治家、教育界人士、
52:20	K: And scientists, politicians, the educational people, the religious people, they are responsible, but I know nothing about it, I just follow. That's the general attitude right through the world.	宗教人士，他们负有责任，而我一无所知，我只是随大流。这是全世界普遍的态度。安：噢，是的，噢，是的。
52:38	A: Oh yes, oh yes.	克：所以你理解这整个事情。
52:41	K: So you follow the whole thing.	安：一个人觉得这样他就能免于责罚，
52:45	A: One feels he gets off scot-free that way because its the other one's fault.	因为那是其他人的过错。克：因此我免除了自己的责任。
52:50	K: So I make myself irresponsible. By delegating a responsibility to you I become irresponsible. Whereas now we are saying, nobody is responsible except you, because you are the world and the world is you. You have created this mess. You alone can bring about clarity, and therefore you are totally, utterly, completely responsible. And nobody else. Now, that means you have to be a light to yourself, not the light of a professor, or an analyst, or a psychologist, or the light of Jesus, or the light of the Buddha. You have to be a light to yourself in a world that is utterly becoming dark. That means you have to be responsible. Now, what does that word mean? It means really, to respond totally, adequately, to every challenge. You can't possibly respond adequately, if you are rooted in the past, because the challenge is new, otherwise it is not a challenge. A crisis is new, otherwise it is not a crisis. So if I respond to a crisis in terms of a preconceived plan, which the Communists are doing, or the Catholics, or the Protestants, and so on, then they are not responding totally and adequately to the challenge.	通过把责任推给你我就没有责任了。然而现在我们说，除了你没有人是有责任的，因为你就是世界，而世界就是你。你制造了这种混乱。唯有你自己能带来清明，因而你负有整体的、彻底的、完全的责任，而不是其他任何人。那么，这意味着你必须成为自己的光，而不是借助教授、精神分析师、或心理学家的光，或者耶稣的光，或佛陀的光。在一个正在变得极其黑暗的世界里，你必须做你自己的光。这意味着你必须负起责任。那么，“责任”这个词是什么意思呢？事实上它意味着，完全地、充分地对每一个挑战作出反应。你不可能充分地反应，如果你扎根于过去的话，因为挑战是新的，否则它就不是挑战了。危机是新的，否则它就不是危机了。所以如果我是按照预想的计划去应对一个危机的，共产主义者、天主教徒或新教徒等等正在那样做，那么就不是在对挑战完全地、充分地作出反应。安：这些让我回想起了一件事情，
55:13	A: This takes me back to something I think that is very germane in the dramatic situation of confrontation between the soldier and the Lord Krishna in the Gita. Arjuna, the general of the army, says to Krishna, 'Tell me definitely what to do and I will do it'. Now Krishna does not turn around and say to him, in the next verse, 'I am not going to tell you what to do' but of course at that point he simply doesn't tell him what to do, and one of the great Sanskrit scholars has pointed out that that's an irresponsible reaction on the part of the teacher. But, if I am understanding you correctly, he couldn't have done otherwise?	我认为刚才所讲的用在《薄伽梵歌》中士兵与克里希那神相遇的戏剧性场面上非常贴切。阿朱那，那个将军，对克利须那说， “明确地告诉我去做什么然后我会去做。” 这个时候克利须那没有转身，而是在下一节中对他说， “我不会告诉你去做什么”。当然在这一点上他就是不告诉他去做什么，而某个伟大的梵语学者指出，从老师的角度来讲那是一种不负责任的反应。但是，如果我能正确理解你所说的，他不可能还有别的做法，对吗？克：当那个人提出了那个问题，
56:11	K: When that man put the question, he is putting the question out of irresponsibility.	他就是不负责任地抛出了问题。安：当然，他拒绝担负责任。
56:17	A: Of course, a refusal to be responsible. Exactly! A refusal to be responsible.	正是！拒绝担负责任。克：这就是为什么，先生，责任意味着完全的担当。
56:23	K: That's why, sir, responsibility means total commitment.	安：完全的担当。克：对挑战完全的承担。
56:32	A: Total commitment.	对危机完全地、充分地作出反应。
56:34	K: Total commitment to the challenge. Responding adequately, completely to a crisis. That is, the word 'responsibility' means that: to respond. I cannot respond completely if I am frightened. Or I cannot respond completely, if I am seeking pleasure. I cannot respond totally, if my action is routine, is repetitive, is traditional, is conditioned. So to respond adequately to a challenge means that the 'me', which is the past, must end.	就是说，“责任”这个词的意思是：去回应。如果我恐惧，我就不能充分地回应。或者如果我在寻求快乐，我就不能充分地回应。我无法充分地回应，如果我的行动是例行公事，是重复性的，是传统的，是受到制约的，因此对挑战充分地应对意味着那个“我”，即那个过去，必须终结。安：在这点上阿朱那想让它
57:38	A: And at this point Arjuna just wants it continued right down the line.	继续下去。克：那是每个人都想要的，先生。
57:43	K: That's what everybody wants, sir. Politically, look at what is happening in this country, and elsewhere. We don't feel responsible. We don't feel responsible to... how we bring our children up.	在政治上，看看这个国家或者其他地方正在发生什么。我们没有感到有责任。我们没有感到有责任怎么抚养孩子长大。安：我理解。我想我真的理解了。
58:05	A: I understand. I really do, I think. In our next conversation I'd really like to continue this in terms of the phrase we sometimes use 'being responsible for my action'. But that does not seem to be saying exactly what you are saying at all. As a matter of fact, it seems to be quite wide of the mark.	在我们的下一次谈话中我想继续这个话题，因为我们有时会用到这个说法： “对我自己的行为负责”。但那看起来完全不是你所说的那个意思。实际上，看起来差很远。克：没错。安：好，我们下次就来谈谈这个。
58:24	K: Quite. A: Good. Let's do that.