克里希那穆提 - 怎样才是一个负责任的人？

Krishnamurti Subtitles

SD74CA4 - 怎样才是一个负责任的人？
与艾伦·W·安德森博士的第四次对话
美国，加利福尼亚，圣地亚哥
1974年2月19日

0:37	Krishnamurti in Dialogue with Dr. Allan W. Anderson	克里希那穆提与艾伦·W·安德森博士的对话
0:42	J. Krishnamurti was born in South India and educated in England. For the past 40 years he has been speaking in the United States, Europe, India, Australia, and other parts of the world. From the outset of his life's work he repudiated all connections with organised religions and ideologies and said that his only concern was to set man absolutely unconditionally free. He is the author of many books, among them The Awakening of Intelligence, The Urgency of Change, Freedom From the Known, and The Flight of the Eagle. This is one of a series of dialogues between Krishnamurti and Dr. Allan W. Anderson, who is professor of religious studies at San Diego State University where he teaches Indian and Chinese scriptures and the oracular tradition. Dr. Anderson, a published poet, received his degree from Columbia University and the Union Theological Seminary. He has been honoured with the distinguished Teaching Award from the California State University.	J·克里希那穆提出生于印度南部，在英国接受教育。在过去的40年中，他一直在美国、欧洲、印度、澳大利亚以及世界上的其他国家进行演讲。从他毕生工作伊始，他就切断了与有组织的宗教和意识形态的所有联系，他说，他唯一关心的是使人们无条件地、绝对地自由。他有多部著作，其中包括《智慧的觉醒》、《转变的紧迫性》、《从已知中解脱》和《鹰的翱翔》。本片是克里希那穆提与艾伦·W·安德森博士的系列对话之一，安德森博士是一位宗教研究学的教授，在圣地亚哥州立大学他讲授印度和中国的经典，以及传统的神谕文化。安德森博士，是一位出版过作品的诗人，从哥伦比亚大学和纽约协和神学院获得了学位。他还被加利福尼亚州立大学授予了杰出教育奖。
1:47	A: Mr. Krishnamurti, just at the point where we left last time in our conversation we had raised the question of the distinction between the notion that I must be responsible for my action and... just being responsible. K: Right, sir.	安：克里希那穆提先生，在我们上次对话停下的地方，我们提出了这个问题，即如何区分 “我必须对我的行为负责”这个想法和“我就是负有责任”。克：是的，先生。
2:07	A: I was sitting here thinking to myself, 'oh why can't we go on', so perhaps we could start at that point. Would that be agreeable? K: I think, sir, there is a very definite distinction between responsible for and being responsible. Being responsible for implies a direction, a directed will. But the feeling of responsibility implies responsibility for everything, not in a direction, in any one particular direction. Responsible for education, responsible for politics, responsible the way I live, to be responsible for my behaviour, it's a total feeling of complete responsibility which is the ground in which action takes place.	安：我当时坐在这儿，心里想： “噢，我们为何不继续探讨这个问题呢？” 所以，也许我们可以从这一点开始。这样可以吗？克：我认为，先生， “对什么负责”和“负责任”，这两者之间有着非常明显的差别。 “对什么负责”隐含着一个方向，一个定向的意愿。但责任感意味着对一切的责任，而不是在某个方向上，不是在任何一个特定的方向上负责。对教育负责，对政治负责，对我的生活方式负责，对我的行为负责，它是一种完全的责任感，这种责任感是行动发生的基础。
3:20	A: I think then this takes us back to this business of crisis we were talking about. If the crisis is continuous, then it's misleading to say I'm responsible for my action, because I've put the thing out there again and it becomes an occasion for my confusing what is at hand, that requires to be done, and the concept of this notion of my action, because I am my action.	安：那么我想这就把我们带回到了我们探讨过的那个关于危机的话题。如果危机是持续的，那么，说“我对我的行为负责”就具有误导性，因为我又把行动当成了外在的事情，于是我就有机会把“手头需要做的事情” 和“关于这个行动的想法” 混淆起来了，因为我就是我的行为。
3:52	K: Yes, that's just it, that's it. A: I am it.	克：是的，就是这样。安：我就是我的行为。
3:54	K: That means, the feeling of responsibility expresses itself politically, religiously, educationally, in business, in the whole of life, responsible for the total behaviour, not in a particular direction. I think there is great deal of difference when one says 'I am responsible for my action.' That means you are responsible for your action according to the idea that you have preconceived about action.	克：这意味着，这种责任感将自身展现在政治、宗教、教育方面，展现在商业方面，展现在整个生活中，是对全部行为而不是对某个特定的方面负责。我认为，当一个人说“我对我的行为负责”时，这里有着很大的不同。那意味着，你是按照你之前对于行动所抱有的想法来对自己的行为负责的。
4:41	A: Exactly. Yes. People sometimes will say that the child is free because it's not responsible.	安：正是。是的。人们有时候会说孩子是自由的，因为他不用负责任。
4:55	K: Oh, child is... You can't take a child into...	克：噢，孩子是......你不能拿孩子......
4:59	A: No, of course not. But I think sometimes, when we say this, we have this nostalgia for the past as though our freedom would be freedom from constraint, whereas if one is his action, genuinely, absolutely... K: There is no restraint, there is no restraint. A: There isn't any restraint at all.	安：不能，当然不能。但是我认为，有时候当我们谈起这点时，我们会缅怀过去，好像我们的自由就应该摆脱限制，然而如果一个人就是他的行为，真正地、绝对地是...... 克：那么就不存在限制，就没有限制。安：完全没有限制。
5:21	K: Not at all. A: Right. Right.	克：完全没有。安：对，对。
5:23	K: Because, look. If one has this total feeling of responsibility, then what is your responsibility with regard to your children? It means education. Are you educating them to bring about a mind that conforms to the pattern, which the society has established, which means you accept the immorality of the society that is. If you feel totally responsible, you are responsible from the moment it's born till the moment it dies. The right kind of education, not the education of making the child conform, the worship of success and the division of nationalities which brings about war - you follow? - all that you are responsible for, not just in a particular direction. Even if you are in a particular direction - I'm responsible for my act - what is your action based on? How can you be responsible when you, when your action is the result of a formula that has been handed down to you?	克：因为，你看，如果你拥有这种完全的责任感，那么你对你孩子的责任是什么呢？那就意味着教育。你教育他们，是否为了造就一种服从模式的心智，是社会建立了这种模式，这就意味着你接受了现实社会的不道德。如果你感到完全有责任，那么从孩子出生的那一刻直到他死去的那一刻，你都负有责任。正确的教育，不是那种让孩子服从、崇尚成功和引发战争的国家划分的教育——你明白吗？—— 你对这一切负有完全的责任，而不是仅仅在某个特定的方面负责。即使你处在某个特定的方向上 ——说“我对我的行为负责”—— 那么你的行为又是基于什么的呢？当你，当你的行为是传承给你的某种模式的产物，你又如何能够负责呢？
7:00	A: Yes, I quite follow what you mean. K: Like communists, they say the state is responsible. Worship the state, the state is the god, and you are responsible to the state. Which means they have conceived what the state should be, formulated ideationally, and, according to that, you act. That is not a responsible action. That's irresponsible action. Whereas action means the doing now. The active present of the verb 'to do' which is to do now, the acting now. The acting now must be free from the past. Otherwise you are just repeating, repetition, traditionally carrying on. That's not...	安：是的，我非常明白你的意思。克：就像共产主义者，他们说国家负有责任。去崇拜国家，国家就是上帝，你对国家也负有责任。这意味着他们已经构思出了国家应该是怎样的，根据观念构想出来，然后你根据它来行动。这不是负责任的行动。这是不负责任的行为。然而行动意味着此时此刻所做的事。动词“做”的活跃的现在时态，就是现在去做，现在的行动。现在的行动必须摆脱过去，否则你就只是在重复，重复，按照传统继续下去。这不是......
8:08	A: I'm reminded of something in the I Ching that I think is a reflection of this principle that you pointed to -I don't mean principle in the abstract. If I am quoting it correctly, from one of the standard translations, it goes like this: 'The superior man...' - by which it means the free man, not hierarchically structured - does not let his thoughts go beyond his situation'. Which would mean that he simply would be present as he is, not being responsible to something out there that is going to tell him how to be responsible, or what he should do, but upon the instant that he is, he is always...	安：这让我想起了《易经》上提到的某个内容，我认为它是你刚才所指的这个原则的一个反映 ——我不是指抽象的原则。如果我正确地引用了其中一种标准译文的话，它是这样说的： “君子”——指自由的人，不受等级的制约—— “不让他的想法超越他的处境（以思不出其位）”。这就意味着，他就如实地身处此刻，不对别处的什么事情负责 ——那别处的事情将告诉他如何去负责任，或者他应该做什么—— 而是在他所身处的此刻，他始终是......
9:12	K: Responsible. A: ...responsible.	克：负责任的。安：......负责任的。
9:13	K: Always. A: He simply does not let his thoughts go beyond his situation. That goes back to that word 'negation'. Because if he won't let his thoughts go beyond his situation, he has negated the possibility for their doing so, hasn't he? K: Yes. Quite. A: Oh yes, yes, yes, I see that. The reason that I'm referring to these other quotations is because, if what you are saying is true and if what they say is true, - quite without respect to how they are understood or not understood - then there must be something in common here, and I realise that your emphasis is practical, eminently practical, upon the act. But it does seem to me to be of great value, if one could converse, commune with the great literatures, which have so many statements - and the complaint about the fact that they are not understood. I see that as a great gain. K: Sir, I have not read any books, any literature in the sense...	克：始终负责。安：他就是不让他的思想超越他的处境。这又回到了“否定”一词。因为如果他不让他的思想超越他的处境，他就已经否定了思想这样做的可能性，不是吗？克：是的。确实是。安：噢，是的，是的，是的，我明白了这一点。我谈及这些来自其他地方的引用，是因为如果你说的是真的，并且如果它们说的也是真的， ——完全不用管人们是怎么理解它们的，还是根本就没有理解—— 那么这里一定存在着某个共同的东西，而我意识到，你对行动的强调是实际层面的，非常实际。然而在我看来，如果一个人能够与伟大的文献交流谈心，那确实也很有价值，这些文献里有很多陈述，并且抱怨事实上人们不理解它们。我把这看作极大的收获。克：先生，我没有读过任何书，任何文献......
10:45	A: Yes, I understand. K: ...in that sense. Suppose there is no book in the world.	安：嗯，我理解。克：......那种意义上的任何文献。假设世界上根本没有书。
10:54	A: The problem is the same. K: The problem is the same.	安：问题还会是一样的。克：问题还会是一样的。
10:57	A: Of course, of course.	安：当然，当然。
10:59	K: There is no leader, no teacher, nobody to tell you do this, do that, don't do this, don't do that. You are there! You feel totally, completely responsible.	克：没有领袖，没有导师，没有人告诉你这样做、那样做，不要做这个，不要做那个。你就在这里! 你感到彻底地、完全地负有责任。
11:13	A: Right. Yes.	安：对，是的。
11:16	K: Then you have to have an astonishingly active clear brain, not befuddled, not puzzled, not bewildered. You must have a mind that thinks clearly! And you cannot think clearly, if you are rooted in the past. You are merely continuing - modified perhaps - through the present to the future. That's all. So from that arises the question: what is the responsibility in human relationship?	克：那么你就必须拥有惊人地活跃而又清晰的头脑，而不是昏沉、迷惑、糊涂的头脑。你必须有思维清晰的头脑！而如果你还扎根于过去，你就不能清晰地思考。你仅仅是在延续过去——可能有所修改—— 通过现在走向未来。就是这样。因此从这点就引出了问题：人的关系之中的责任是什么？
12:01	A: Yes. Now we are back to relationships.	安：是的。现在我们回到了关系的问题上。
12:03	K: Because that is the basic foundation of life: relationship. That is, to be related, to be in contact with.	克：因为关系是生活最根本的基础。关系。那就是，相互关联，联系在一起。
12:20	A: We are presently related. K: Related.	安：我们现在是相互关联的。克：相互关联的。
12:23	A: This is what is. K: Yes. Now, what is human relationship? If I feel totally responsible, how does that responsibility express in relationship: to my children, if I have children, to my family, to my neighbour, whether the neighbour is next door or ten thousand miles away, he is still my neighbour! So what is my responsibility? What is the responsibility of a man who feels totally, completely involved in this feeling of being a light to himself and totally responsible? I think this is a question, sir, that has to be investigated.	安：这是现在的事实。克：是的。那么，人与人的关系是什么呢？如果我感到完全有责任，那么这种责任在关系中是如何体现的？如果我有孩子，对我的孩子的责任，对我的家庭、我的邻居的责任，不论是隔壁还是万里之外的邻居，他仍然是我的邻居！那么我的责任是什么呢？一个完全感觉到、彻底意识到自己是自己的光并且完全负责的人，他的责任是什么呢？我认为这是个必须探讨的问题，先生。
13:30	A: Yes, you know what I'm thinking? I'm thinking that only a person responsible, as you have said it, can make what we call, in our tongue, a clean decision.	安：是的，你知道我在想什么吗？我在想，只有一个像你说的那样负责任的人才能做出我们所说的清晰的决定。
13:46	K: Of course, of course.	克：当然，当然。
13:48	A: So many decisions are frayed.	安：很多决定都是相互矛盾的。
13:56	K: Sir, I would like to ask this: is there decision at all? Decision implies choice.	克：先生，我想问个问题：究竟是否存在决定这回事？决定意味着选择。
14:11	A: Yes.	安：是的。
14:12	K: Choice implies a mind that's confused, between this and that.	克：选择意味着一个混乱的、在这个和那个之间摇摆的头脑。
14:17	A: It means, I think, radically to make a cut, to cut off.	安：我想，决定就意味着彻底地做个了断。
14:22	K: Yes, but a mind that sees clearly has no choice. It doesn't decide. It acts.	克：是的，但一个视野清晰的头脑是没有选择的。它不做决定，它行动。
14:32	A: Yes. Doesn't this take us back to this word 'negation' again?	安：是的。难道这不是又把我们带回到了 “否定”这个词吗？
14:36	K: Yes, of course.	克：是的，当然。
14:38	A: Might it not be that a clean decision could be interpreted in terms of what takes place at this point of negation from which flows a different action.	安：难道不能这样来解释 “清晰的决定”吗：在这个否定的时刻所发生的事情，从中就产生了一种不同的行动。
14:49	K: But I don't like to use that word 'decision' because, deciding between this and that.	克：但是我不喜欢用“决定”一词，因为，决定是在这和那之间做出的。
14:59	A: You don't want to use it because of the implications in it of conflict?	安：你不想用它，是因为其中蕴含着冲突？
15:04	K: Conflict, choice, we think we are free because we choose. We can choose, right? A: Yes.	克：冲突、选择，我们认为我们是自由的因为我们能够选择。我们能够选择，对吗？安：是的。
15:16	K: Is free a mind that is capable of choice? Or is a mind that is not free, that chooses? The choice implies between this and that. Obviously. Which means, the mind doesn't see clearly and therefore there is choice. The choice exists when there is confusion.	克：一个能够选择的心智是自由的吗？或者一个不自由的心灵才会做选择？选择意味着在这和那之间选择。这很明显。那意味着，心智没有看清从而存在选择。当困惑存在时选择才存在。
15:48	A: Yes, yes, yes.	安：是的，是的，是的。
15:49	K: A mind that sees clearly, there is no choice. It is doing. I think this is where we have got into rather trouble, when we say we are free to choose, choice implies freedom. I say, on the contrary! Choice implies a mind that is confused and therefore not free.	克：一个看清的头脑，没有选择。它在行动。我认为这就是我们陷入麻烦的地方，那就是，当我们说我们有选择的自由，选择意味着自由的时候。而我说，正好相反! 选择意味着头脑是混乱的，从而是不自由的。
16:18	A: What occurs to me now is the difference between regarding freedom as a property or quality of action rather than a state. Yes. But we have the notion that freedom is a state, a condition, which is quite different from the emphasis that you are leading me into.	安：我现在想到的是，将自由看作是一种行动的性质或品质，而不是一种状态，这两者的区别。是的。但我们有这种概念：自由是一种状态，一种条件，而这与你要带我深入探究的重点是完全不同的。克：是的，你说得对。安：是的，是的，是的。
16:45	K: Yes, that's right. A: Yes, yes, yes.	克：所以我们回到这点，先生，那就是，
16:48	K: So let's come back to this, sir, which is what is the responsibility of a human being - who feels this sense - in relationship? Because relationship is life, relationship is the foundation of existence. Relationship is absolutely necessary, otherwise you can't exist. Relationship means co-operation. Everything is involved in that one word. Relation means love, generosity, and, you know, all that's implied. Now, what is a human responsibility in relationship?	具有这种责任感的人类一员在关系中的责任是什么？因为关系就是生活，关系是存在的基础。关系是绝对必要的，否则你就无法存在。关系意味着合作。关系一词包含着一切。关系意味着爱、慷慨，你知道，意味着这一切。那么，人在关系中的责任是什么呢？安：如果我们是在真诚地、完全地分享，
17:42	A: If we were genuinely and completely sharing, then responsibility would be present fully, is it not?	那么责任就会全部呈现出来，不是吗？克：是的，但责任是怎样在关系中展现自己的呢?
17:53	K: Yes, but how does it express itself in relationship? Not only between you and me now, but between man and woman, between... my neighbour, relationship, sir, to everything, to nature. What's my relationship to nature? Would I go and kill the baby seals?	不仅在你我之间，而且在男人和女人之间，在我和我的邻居之间，先生，与一切事物，与自然的关系。我与自然的关系是什么？我会去宰杀幼年海豹吗? 安：不，不会。
18:23	A: No, no.	克：我会去杀掉人类，
18:28	K: Would I go and destroy human beings calling them enemies? Would I destroy nature, everything, - which man is doing now? He is destroying the earth, the air, the sea, everything! Because he feels totally irresponsible.	声称他们是敌人吗？我会去破坏大自然、破坏一切吗？——人类正在做这样的事情，人类正在破坏地球、空气、海洋，一切！因为他完全没有责任感。安：人类认为外在的一切他都可以任意宰割。
18:51	A: He sees what is out there as something to operate on.	克：是的，人类宰杀幼年海豹，
18:56	K: Yes. Which is, he kills the baby seal, which I saw the other day on a film, it's an appalling thing. And they are Christians, they call themselves Christians, going and killing a little thing for some lady to put on the fur. And - you follow? - totally immoral, the whole thing is. So, to come back, I say, how does this responsibility show itself in my life? I am married - I am not, but suppose I am married - what is my responsibility? Am I related to my wife?	前几天我在电影上看到了这非常可怕的一幕。而那些人是基督徒，他们称自己为基督徒，却在为了某个女士能够穿上皮草去杀掉一个可怜的小东西。而——你明白吗？——这整个事情是完全不道德的。那么，话说回来，我说，在我的生活中责任是怎么体现的？我结婚了——其实我没有，但假设我结婚了——我的责任是什么？我和我妻子有关系吗？安：统计数据看起来并不是很好。
19:45	A: The record doesn't seem very good.	克：不仅是数据，而是实际情况如何。
19:47	K: Not only record, actuality. Am I related to my wife? A: Right.	我与我的妻子有关吗？安：对。克：或者，我和我妻子的关系是不是
19:51	K: Or am I related to my wife according to the image I have built about her? And I am responsible for that image - you follow, sir?	根据我对她建立的意象而定的？我对那个意象负有责任——你明白吗，先生？安：是的，因为我一直
20:02	A: Yes, because my input has been continuous with respect to that image. K: Yes. So, I have no relationship with my wife, if I have an image about her. Or if I have an image about myself when I want to be successful, and all the rest of that business.	在对那个意象进行投入。克：是的。所以，我和我的妻子并无关系可言，如果我抱有一个关于她的意象的话。或者如果，当我想要取得成功和从事诸如此类的把戏时，我也拥有关于自己的意象。安：既然我们探讨过“当下”、现在，
20:22	A: Since we were talking about 'now', being now, there is a point of contact between what you are saying and the phrase that you used in one of our earlier conversations 'the betrayal of the present'. K: Absolutely. You see, that is the whole point, sir. If I am related to you, I have no image about you, or you have no image about me, then we have relationship. We have no relationship if I have an image about myself or about you. Our images have a relationship, when in actuality we have no relationship. I might sleep with my wife or some, but it is not a relationship. It is a physical contact, sensory excitement, nothing else. My responsibility is not to have an image!	那么在你此刻说的事情和你在我们早先的谈话中用到的一个短语—— “对现在的背叛”之间，存在着一点联系。克：的确如此。你看，这就是整个重点，先生。如果我和你有关联，我没有关于你的意象，你也没有关于我的意象，这时我们才拥有真正的关系。如果我有关于你的或者我自己的意象，我们就没有关系。我们的意象有关系，而实际上我们之间并没有关系。我可能和我的妻子同床共枕或做其他的什么，但那不是真正的关系。那是身体上的接触，感官刺激，别无其他。我的责任就是不要抱有意象！安：这让我想起了
21:40	A: This brings to mind, I think one of the loveliest statements in the English language which I should like to understand in terms of what we have been sharing. These lines from Keats' poem 'Endymion', there is something miraculous, marvellous in this statement, it seems to me, that is immediately related to what you have been saying: 'A thing of beauty is a joy forever'. And then he says, - as though that's not enough - he says, 'Its loveliness increases'! And then as though that's not enough, he says, 'It will never pass into nothingness'. Now, when the present is not betrayed, it's full with a fullness that keeps on abounding.	我认为英语中最可爱的说法之一，我想按照我们所分享的内容去理解那个说法。这些句子摘自济慈的诗《恩底弥翁》，这些句子中有某种奇妙、不可思议的东西，在我看来，那和你刚才谈到的直接相关： “美好的事物就是永恒的喜悦”。然后他说——好像刚才的话还不足以表达—— 他说，“它的美与日俱增”！然后好像他觉得还不够，于是接着说， “它永远不会落入虚空”。那么，当“此刻”没有受到背叛，它就充满了一种持续增长的圆满。克：是的，的确，我理解。
22:54	K: Yes, quite, I understand.	安：我说的对吗？克：是的，我认为是对的。
22:55	A: Would I be correct in that? K: Yes, I think so.	安：我认为那一定是他真正想说的，
22:58	A: I think that's truly what he must be saying, and one of the things too that passed my mind was he calls it a thing of beauty. He doesn't call it a beautiful thing. It's a thing of beauty as though it's a child of beauty. A marvellous continuity between this. Not: it's beautiful because I think it's beautiful, and therefore it's outside. Yes, yes, yes.	并且我还想到了一点：他称之为美好的事物。他没有称之为“美丽的事物”。它是美好的事物，仿佛它是美的孩子。这两者之间有一种奇妙的延续关系。不是：它很美丽因为我认为它美丽，因而那种美是外在的。是的，就是这样。克：我们回过头来，我必须紧抓住这一点，
23:29	K: We come back, I must stick to this, because this is really quite important. Because, go where you will, there is no relationship between human beings, and that is the tragedy, and from that arises all our conflict, violence, the whole business. So, if... - not if - ...when there is this responsibility, the feeling of this responsibility, it translates itself in relationship. It doesn't matter with whom it is. A freedom from the known, which is the image. And therefore in that freedom goodness flowers.	因为这点真的很重要。因为无论你走到哪里，人与人之间都没有关系存在，而这就是悲剧所在，从中就产生了我们所有的矛盾、暴力，这所有的一切。所以，如果——不是如果——当存在责任，这种责任感，这种责任就会在关系中体现出自己。那是与什么人的关系并不重要。那是一种摆脱了已知也就是意象的自由。因此在这种自由中善就会绽放开来。安：善绽放开来。
24:27	A: Goodness flowers.	克：这就是那种美。这就是美。
24:29	K: And that is the beauty. And that is beauty. Beauty is not an abstract thing, but it goes with goodness. Goodness in behaviour, goodness in conduct, goodness in action.	美不是一种抽象的事物，但它与善同行。行为中的善，举止中的善，行动中的善。安：有时候当我们的谈话时，
24:45	A: Sometimes while we have been talking I have started a sentence with 'if,' and I have looked into your eyes and immediately I got it out, I knew I had said the wrong thing. It's just like a minute ago you said 'if', and you said, 'no, when'. We are always 'if-ing' it up. K: I know. 'If-ing' it up!	我用“如果”开始一个句子，我看着你的眼睛，然后我马上就明白过来，我知道我说错话了。就像一分钟前，你说“如果”，然后你说，“不对，是‘当’”。我们总是假设个没完。克：我知道，总是假设个没完！安：这很糟糕。克：我知道，先生。
25:04	A: It is awful. K: I know, sir. We are always dealing with abstractions rather than with reality.	我们总是处理抽象的概念，而不是处理事实。安：我们一说“如果”，
25:12	A: Immediately we 'if', a construction is out there, which we endlessly talk about. K: That's right.	一个我们会讨论起来没完没了的构想马上就产生了出来。克：你说的对。安：而且我们越来越精于此道，
25:20	A: And we get cleverer and cleverer about it, and it has nothing to do with anything! Yes, yes, yes.	但它和任何事情都没有关系！是的，就是这样。克：那么，这种责任在人类的行为中
25:29	K: So, how does this responsibility translate itself in human behaviour? You follow, sir? A: Yes. There would be an end to violence.	怎样体现自己？你明白吗，先生？安：是的。暴力会终结。克：完全正确。安：而不是逐渐减少。
25:47	K: Absolutely. A: Wouldn't taper off.	克：你看看我们所做的事，先生。
25:54	K: You see what we have done, sir. We are violent human beings, sexually, morally, in every way, we are violent human beings, and not being able to resolve it, we have created an ideal of not being violent, which is: the fact, an abstraction of the fact, which is non-fact, and try to live the non-fact.	我们是暴力的人类，在性、道德以及各个方面，我们都是暴力的人类，而由于我们不能解决暴力的问题，我们就建立了非暴力的理想，理想是关于事实的抽象概念，它不是事实，而我们就试图生活在非事实之中。安：是的。这即刻产生了冲突，
26:28	A: Yes. Immediately that produces conflict, because it cannot be done. K: That produces conflict, misery, confusion, all the rest of it. Why does the mind do it? The mind does it, because it doesn't know what to do with this fact of violence. Therefore in abstracting the idea of not being violent, postpones action. I am trying not to be violent, and in the mean time I am jolly well violent.	因为它无法实现。克：这产生了冲突、苦难、混乱以及诸如此类的一切。为什么心智要这样做？心智这样做，因为它不知道拿暴力的事实怎么办。因此，在形成“不暴力”这个抽象概念的过程中，它拖延行动。我努力变得不暴力，与此同时我对暴力依然乐此不疲。安：是的。
27:05	A: Yes.	克：这是对事实的逃避。
27:07	K: And it is an escape from the fact. All abstractions are escape from the fact. So the mind does it, because it is incapable of dealing with the fact, or it doesn't want to deal with the fact, or it is lazy and says, 'Well, I will try and do it some other day'. All those are involved, when it withdraws from the fact. Now, in the same way, the fact is: our relationship is non-existent. I may say to my wife, I love you, etc., etc., but it's non-existent. Because I have an image about her and she has an image about me. So, on abstractions we have lived.	所有的抽象都是逃避事实。心智这样做，是因为它没有能力处理事实，或者它不希望处理事实，或者它很懒，说， “好吧，改天我会试一下。” 当它从事实中抽离时，所有那些事情都牵涉了进来。那么，同样，事实是：我们的关系是不存在的。我可能对我的妻子说，我爱你，等等，等等，但关系是不存在的。因为我有关于她的意象，她也有关于我的意象。所以，我们依靠抽象的概念生活。安：我刚刚想到“事实”这个词本身，
28:06	A: It just occurred to me that the word 'fact' itself - which there have been no end of disquisitions about...	人们曾无止境地探究过它...... 克：当然。事实：“现在如何”。让我们称它为“现在如何”。
28:15	K: Of course. The fact: 'what is'. Let's call it 'what is'.	安：但实际上它指的是做了的事情。
28:18	A: But actually it means something done.	克：做了的，是的。安：不是关于某个事情的记录，
28:22	K: Done, yes. A: Not the record of something, but actually something done, performed, act, act. And it's that sense of 'fact' that with our use of the word 'fact'. 'Give me facts and figures', we'd say in English, give me facts, we don't mean that when we say it.	而是实际做了的事情，完成了的，行动，行动。我们用“事实”这个词，指的是这个意义上的“事实”。 “给我事实和数据”，我们在英语里这样说， “给我事实”，当我们这样说时，我们是言不由衷的。克：没错。安：是的，是的。
28:42	K: No. A: No. No. One probably wouldn't need facts and figures in that abstract sense.	一个人可能并不需要那种抽象意义上的事实和数据。克：你看，先生，这揭示出太多的事情了。
28:52	K: You see, sir, this reveals a tremendous lot.	安：我明白。
28:55	A: I follow.	克：当你感到有责任，
28:57	K: When you feel responsible, you feel responsible for education of your children, not only your children - children. Are you educating them to conform to a society, are you educating them to merely acquire a job? Are you educating them to the continuity of what has been? Are you educating them to live in abstractions as we are doing now? So what is your responsibility as a father, mother - it doesn't matter who you are - responsible in education, for the education of a human being. That's one problem. What is your responsibility, - if you feel responsible - for human growth, human culture, human goodness? What's your responsibility to the earth, to nature, you follow? It is a tremendous thing to feel responsible.	你就会感到对你的孩子，不只是你的，而是所有的孩子都负有教育的责任。你会教他们去服从社会吗？你教育他们仅仅是为了让他们获得一份工作吗？你会教他们继续去做过去的那些事情吗？你会教育他们像我们一样生活在抽象的概念中吗？所以，什么是你作为父亲、母亲 ——你是谁没关系——在教育方面、对于教育人类的责任。这是一个问题。如果你感到有责任的话，你对于人类的成长、人类的文化和人类的良善所负的责任是什么？你对于地球、自然的责任是什么，你明白吗？ “感到有责任”是一件无比非凡的事情。安：我刚刚想到这个我必须问你的问题。
30:35	A: This just came to mind, which I must ask you about. The word 'negation' in the book that we looked at earlier, - which is continuous with what we are saying - I think, is itself rather endangered by the usual notion that we have of negation, which is simply a prohibition, which is not meant. Which is not meant. K: No, No. Of course not.	在我们早些时候看的那本书里的“否定”一词 ——这与我们正在探讨的内容是连贯的—— 我认为，它本身受到了我们对否定所通常抱有的想法的侵蚀，那个想法认为它就是一种禁止，而其实它不是这个含义。克：对，对，当然不是。安：当我们回顾《薄伽梵歌》中
31:15	A: When we reviewed that incident in the Gita between the general and his charioteer, the lord Krishna, the lord's response was a negation without it being a prohibition...	那个将军和他战车的御者，与克利须那神之间发生的那一幕，克利须那神的回应是一种并非禁止的否定...... 克：没错，的确是。安：......难道不是吗？
31:35	K: Quite, quite. A: ...wasn't it?	克：我不知道，我......
31:36	K: I don't know. I am...	安：不，不，我是就我们刚刚谈过的内容来说的。
31:38	A: No, No. I mean in terms of what we just got through to saying. K: Yes, of course.	克：是的，当然。安：那么，此时此刻从根本上
31:45	A: There is a difference then between rearing a child in terms of relating to the child radically in the present, in which negation - as is mentioned in the book here that we went through - is continuously and immediately and actively present. And simply walking around saying to oneself, 'Now I am rearing a child, therefore I mustn't do these things, and I mustn't do those things, I must do that'. Exactly. An entirely different thing. But one has to break the habit of seeing negation as prohibition. K: Of course. And also, you see, with responsibility goes love, care, attention.	与孩子产生联系，以这样的方式来抚养孩子，这里就有着某种不同，此时，否定—— 正如我们之前探讨的书中所提到的—— 就存在于持续的、直接的、活跃的现在。而在闲庭信步中对自己说， “既然我在抚养孩子，因此我不可以做这些事情，我不可以做那些事，我必须这样做。” 确实，这是一件完全不同的事情。但一个人必须打破把否定看作禁止的习惯。克：当然。并且，你看，与责任同行的是爱、关怀和关注。安：是的，刚才我想问你
32:41	A: Yes. Earlier I was going to ask you about care in relation to responsibility. Something that would flow immediately, naturally. K: Naturally, sir.	关怀与责任的关系。某种直接地、自然地流淌出来的东西。克：自然地流露出来，先生。安：不是我必须去计划
32:53	A: Not that I have to project that I need to care for later and so I won't forget, but I would be with it.	我需要随后去关心的事情，这样我才不会忘记，而是我就与关怀同在。克：你看，这其中也涉及到很多事情，因为
33:00	K: You see, that involves a great deal too, because the mother depends on the child, and the child depends on the mother, - or the father, whatever it is. So that dependence is cultivated: not only between the father and the mother, but depend on a teacher, depend on somebody to tell you what to do, depend on your guru. You follow? A: Yes, yes, I follow.	母亲依赖孩子，孩子依赖母亲，或者父亲，不论父亲或母亲。因此，这种依赖就被培养了出来：不光依赖父亲和母亲，还有对老师的依赖，依赖某人告诉你去做什么，依赖你的古鲁。你明白吗？安：是的，是的，我明白。克：渐渐地，这个孩子，这个人，就无法独立于世，
33:40	K: Gradually the child, the man is incapable of standing alone, and therefore he says, I must depend on my wife for my comfort, for my sex, for my this or that, and the other thing, I am lost without her. And I am lost without my guru, without my teacher. It becomes so ridiculous! So when the feeling of responsibility exists, all this disappears. You are responsible for your behaviour, for the way you bring up your children, for the way you treat a dog, a neighbour, nature, everything is in your hands. Therefore you have to become astonishingly careful what you do. Careful, not, 'I must not do this, and I must do that'. Care, that means affection, that means consideration, diligence. All that goes with responsibility, which present society totally denies. When we begin to discuss the various gurus that are imported in this country, that's what they are doing, creating such mischief, making those people, unfortunate, thoughtless people, who want excitement, join them, do all kinds of ridiculous nonsensical things. So, we come back: freedom implies responsibility. And therefore freedom, responsibility, means care, diligence, not negligence. Not doing what you want to do, which is what is happening in America. Do what you want to do, this permissiveness is just doing what you want to do, which is not freedom, which breeds irresponsibility. I met the other day in Delhi, New Delhi, a girl, and she's become a Tibetan. You follow, sir? Born in America, being a Christian, brought up in all that, throws all that aside, goes, becomes a Tibetan, which is the same thing in different words.	于是他说，我必须依靠我的妻子，为了我的舒适，为了我的性生活，为了我的这个、那个和其他东西，没有她我就会不知所措。没有我的古鲁，没有我的老师，我就迷失了。事情竟变得如此荒谬！所以，当你有责任感时，所有这些就都消失了。你对你的行为、你抚养孩子的方式、你对待一条狗的方式、对待邻居的方式、对待自然的方式负有责任，世间万物都在你的手上。因此你必须异乎寻常地小心你做的事情。小心，而不是“我不可以做这个，我必须做那个”。关心，就意味着爱，意味着考虑周全、勤奋。所有这些都与责任同行，而当今社会却完全否定了责任。当我们开始谈论这个国家引进的各种各样的古鲁时，他们所做的事情，正是制造这样的不幸，让那些人，不幸的、草率的人们，想要刺激的人们，加入他们的行列，做出各种荒诞的、没有意义的事情。所以，我们回到之前谈的：自由意味着责任。因此自由、责任就意味着关心、勤奋，而不是疏忽。也不是做你想做的事， ——这是美国正在发生的事情。做你想要做的事，这种放任只是为所欲为，那不是自由，那滋生了“不负责任”。不久前的一天，我在新德里遇到了一个女孩，她变成了藏传佛教徒。你明白吗，先生？她生在美国，作为一个基督徒，在那种环境中长大，然后把所有那一切都抛开，变成了藏传佛教徒，可那不过是“新瓶装旧酒”。安：是的，作为一个藏传佛教徒来到这里，做这些事情。
36:43	A: Yes. As a Tibetan coming over here and doing it.	克：这一切太荒谬了! 安：是的。
36:47	K: It's all ridiculous! A: Yes.	克：我认识她有些年了，
36:49	K: And I've known her some years, I said, 'Where is your child?' who was six. "Oh,' she said, 'I've left him with other liberated Tibetans'. I said, 'At six? You are the mother'. She said, 'Yes, he is in very good hands'. I come back next year and I ask, 'Where is your child?' 'Oh, he has become a Tibetan monk,' who is seven. He is seven years old and has become a Tibetan monk! You understand, sir? A: Oh yes, I do.	我问，“你的孩子在哪里？” 她的孩子6岁了。她说，“噢，我让他和解脱了的藏传佛教徒们待在一起。” 我说，“6岁就这样？你是他母亲啊。” 她说，“是的，他被照顾得很好。” 第二年我回来的时候，问她，“你的孩子在哪里？” “噢，他成了一名藏传佛教的僧人”，那孩子才7岁。他7岁就成了藏传佛教的僧人！你明白吗，先生？安：是的，我明白。克：这是多么不负责任，
37:25	K: The irresponsibility of it, because the mother feels, 'They know better than I do, I am Tibetan and the lamas will help me to become..'.	因为这位母亲觉得，“那些藏传佛教的喇嘛比我懂的多，我是藏传佛教徒，喇嘛会帮我成为......” 安：这为下面这段圣经上的陈述
37:40	A: It puts a rather sinister cast on that Biblical statement: train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it. There is a sinister note in there, isn't there?	提供了一个相当不幸的写照：培养孩子走他该走的路，即使到老也不偏离。那是一个不幸的注解，不是吗？克：绝对是。
37:52	K: Absolutely. So this is going on in the world all the time. And a man who is really serious negates that, because he understands the implications, the inwardness of all that. So he has to deny it. It isn't a question of will or choice, he says that's too silly, too absurd. So freedom means responsibility and infinite care.	因此，这种事情一直在世界上发生着。而一个真正认真的人否定这种事情，因为他懂得这一切的暗示和内涵。所以他不得不否定它。这不是一个意愿或选择的问题，他说那太愚蠢、太荒谬了。所以自由意味着责任和无限的关怀。安：你刚才说的短语“无限的关怀......
38:37	A: The phrase that you just spoke, 'infinite care...'	克：是的，先生。
38:40	K: Yes, sir.	安：......对我们所谓有限的存在来说
38:43	A: ...it would be totally impossible to what we mean by a finite being unless the finite being did not betray the present.	是完全不可能的，除非这个有限的存在没有背离现在。克：我知道，先生。安：“没有背离现在”
38:56	K: I know, sir. A: 'With not betraying the present' is a negative again. It is a negation again. With not betraying the present. Which is not to say what will happen if it is not...	也是一种否定。它又是一种否定。没有背离现在。不是说，如果没有背离，会发生什么...... 克：先生，“现在”一词，“此时”，是非常难以理解的。
39:07	K: Sir, the word 'present', the now, is rather difficult.	安：噢，是的。哲学家们喜欢称之为“似是而非的现在”。
39:12	A: Oh yes. Philosophers love to call it the specious present.	克：我不知道哲学家是怎么说的。
39:16	K: I don't know what philosophers say. I don't want to enter into all that speculative thinking. But the fact, what is the 'now'? What is the act of now, the present? To understand the present I must understand the past, not history, I don't mean that. A: Oh no, no, no.	我不想进行任何推测性的思考，而是只考虑事实，什么是“现在”？什么是现在、此刻的行动？要了解现在，我就必须了解过去，不是了解历史，我不是这个意思。安：啊，对，对。克：要了解作为过去的我自己。我就是过去。
39:40	K: Understand myself as the past. I am the past.	安：也就是我们先前谈过的知识。
39:44	A: In terms of what we said earlier about knowledge.	克：是的。我就是知识。安：是的。
39:46	K: Yes. I am that. A: Yes.	克：因此我必须了解过去，而过去就是我，
39:50	K: Therefore I must understand the past, which is me, the 'me' is the known - the 'me' is not the unknown, I can imagine it is the unknown but the fact is, the 'what is' is the known. That's me. I must understand myself. If I don't, the now is merely a continuation, in modified form, of the past. Therefore it is not the now, not the present. Therefore the 'me' is the tradition, the knowledge, in all the complicated manoeuvres, cunning - you follow? - all that, the despairs, the anxieties, the desire for success, fear, pleasure, all that is me.	“我”就是已知， “我”不是未知，我可以想象它是未知，但事实上，“现在如何”就是已知。这就是我。我必须了解我自己。如果我不了解自己，那么“现在”就仅仅是过去的一种改良版的延续。从而它就不是现在，不是此时。因此“我”就是传统，就是知识，有着所有错综复杂的花招、狡诈无比 ——你明白吗？——诸如此类的一切，各种失望、焦虑、对成功的渴望、害怕、快乐，这一切都是我。安：因为我们还在这里
40:49	A: Since we are still involved in a discussion about relationship here, might we return a moment to where we were with respect to education and relationship. I want to be sure that I have understood you here. Let us say that one were fortunate enough to have a school where what you are pointing to was going on.	讨论关系的问题，我们是否可以花点时间回到我们之前讨论的教育和关系的问题。我想确认我在这方面已经理解你的意思。让我们假定一个人足够幸运，能拥有一所学校，你所说的事情正在这所学校里发生着。克：我们就是要做这件事，我们正在做这件事情。我们有7所学校。安：太棒了。太棒了。
41:19	K: We are going to do, we are doing it. We have got seven schools. A: Marvellous. Marvellous. Well, we'll have a chance to talk about that, won't we?	那么，我们有机会讨论这个问题，不是吗？克：是的。安：好的，好的。
41:26	K: Yes. A: Good, good. If I'm current here, it would seem that if the teacher is totally present to the child, the child will feel this. The child won't have to be instructed in what this means then. Is that right? K: Yes, but one has to find out what is the relationship of the teacher to the student. A: Yes, yes. I quite see that. Of course. K: What is the relationship? Is he merely an informer giving information to the child? Any machine can do that.	如果我此刻在这里，那么可以说，如果老师对孩子处于完全在场的状态，孩子就会感觉到这一点。这时孩子不必被告知这是什么意思。对吗？克：是的，但是一个人必须弄清楚学生和老师的关系是什么。安：是的，是的。我很明白这一点。克：他们之间的关系是什么？他仅仅是个信息提供者，给孩子提供信息吗？任何机器都能做到这点。安：是的，图书馆里装满了知识。克：任何机器都能做到。那么他与学生的关系是什么呢？
42:22	A: Oh yes, the library is filled with it.	他把自己放在讲台之上
42:23	K: Any machine can do that. Or what is his relationship? Does he put himself on a pedestal up there and his student down there? Or is the relationship between the teacher and the student, is it a relationship, in which there is learning on the part of the teacher as well as the student. Learning. A: Yes.	而他的学生在下面吗？或者，老师和学生的关系，是不是这样一种老师和学生都同样在学习的关系。学习。安：是的。克：不是我有学问，所以我要教你。
42:55	K: Not I have learnt and I am going to teach you. Therefore in that there is a division between the teacher and the student. But when there is learning on the part of the teacher, as well as on the part of the student, there is no division. Both are learning.	那样的话在学生和老师之间就存在着一种分离。但是，当老师方面和学生方面都同样在学习时，分离就不存在。双方都在学习。安：是的。克：因此这种关系
43:17	A: Yes.	就带来了一种伙伴关系。
43:19	K: And therefore that relationship brings about a companionship.	安：一种分享。克：一种分享。安：一种分享。是的。克：一起旅行。
43:26	A: A sharing. K: A sharing.	从而双方都有着无限的关怀。
43:27	A: A sharing. Yes. K: Taking a journey together. And therefore an infinite care on both sides. So it means, how is the teacher to teach mathematics, or whatever it is, to the student, and yet teach it in such a way that you awaken the intelligence in the child, not about mathematics.	那么这就意味着，老师要如何教学生数学，或者不论什么课程，都能采用这样一种能够唤醒孩子智慧的教学方式，而不仅仅是教授数学。安：对，当然不只是教数学，不仅如此，是的。
44:04	A: No, no, of course not, no. Yes. Yes.	克：你要怎样开展这种教学活动，
44:07	K: And how do you bring this act of teaching, in which there is order, because mathematics means order, the highest form of order is mathematics. Now, how will you convey to the student, in teaching mathematics, that there should be order in his life? Not order according to a blueprint. That's not order. You follow? A: Yes, yes.	其中有着秩序，因为数学就意味着秩序，数学是最高形式的秩序。那么，你怎样在教数学的过程中把“他的生活中应当有秩序”这个信息传递给学生？不是根据蓝图而来的秩序。那不是秩序。你明白吗？安：是的，是的。克：因此这会带来......这是一种创造性的教育，
44:52	K: Therefore it brings... it's a creative teaching, - not creative - it's an act of learning all the time. So it's a living thing. Not something I have learnt and I am going to impart it to you.	——不是创造性的——它是自始至终都在学习的行动。所以它是一个活生生的东西。不是某个我已经学到的东西，然后我要把它传授给你。安：这让我想起了我多年前读过的一篇文章，
45:16	A: This reminds me of a little essay I read many years ago by Simone Weil which she called 'On Academic Studies' or some title like that, and she said that every one who teaches a subject is responsible for teaching the student the relation between what they are studying and the students making a pure act of attention.	西蒙·韦伊写的《论学术研究》或某个差不多的名称，其中她谈到，每个任课老师都有责任让学生明白他们正在学习的内容与学生自己的纯然关注行为之间的关系。克：我知道，当然，当然。安：并且，如果没有做到这一点，
45:47	K: I know, of course, of course.	这整个教学就没有任何意义。
45:49	A: And that, if this doesn't take place, this whole thing doesn't mean a thing.	克：先生，就是这样。安：当一个人停下来思考一个老师应该说什么，
45:53	K: Sir, that's just it.	如果一个学生走过来看着他问道，
45:54	A: And when one stops to think what would a teacher say, if a student walked up and looked at him and said, 'Fine, we're studying calculus right now. Now you tell me how I am to see this that I am pursuing in relation to my making a pure act of attention'. It would be likely a little embarrassing except for the most unusual person, who had this grasp of the present. K: Quite. So sir, that's just it. What is the relationship of the teacher to the student in education? Is he training him merely to conform, is he training him to cultivate mere memory, like a machine? Is he training, or is he helping him to learn about life, not just about sex - the life, the whole immensity of living, the complexity of it? Which we are not doing. A: No. No, even in our language, we refer students to subject matters. They take this, they take that, they take the other, and in fact, there are prerequisites for taking these other things. And this builds a notion of education, which has absolutely no relationship to what...	“好，我们正在学习微积分，那么，请你告诉我，我要怎么看到这一点，即我追求的这部分知识与我做出的纯然关注行为之间是有关联的。” 这好像会有点儿尴尬，除了那些能够领会当下的极其非同寻常的人，他们也许不会觉得尴尬。克：的确。所以，先生，情况就是这样。在教育中老师和学生的关系是什么呢？老师仅仅训练学生去遵从，仅仅训练学生像机器一样去培养记忆力吗？老师是去训练学生呢，还是帮助学生去了解生活， ——不仅仅了解性，而是了解生活，整个生活的广阔性，生活的复杂性？我们并没有这样做。安：没错。我们没有这样做，即便按照我们自己的说法，我们还是叫学生去学习各个科目。他们学这个，他们学那个，他们学其他的科目，而实际上，这里就有各种先入之见，说要去学习其他那些东西。而这就建立了一种关于教育的观念，这种观念完全无关于...... 克：一点儿关系都没有。安：然而让人惊讶的是，
47:31	K: None at all.	在全国各大学的要览中，
47:32	A: And yet, and yet amazingly, in the catalogues of colleges and universities across the country there is in the first page or so a rather pious remark about the relation between their going to school and the values of civilisation. And that turns out to be learning a series of ideas. Well, I don't know if they do it any more, but they used to put the word 'character' in there. They probably decided that's unpopular and might very well have dropped that out by now, I'm not sure. Yes, yes. Yes, I'm following what you are saying.	在第一页或者什么地方都写着一句非常神圣的话，说的是上学受教育和文明的价值观之间的关系。而结果却是学到了一系列的观点。哦，我不知道他们是否还在这样做，但是他们过去习惯把“品格”一词放在那儿的。也许他们判定那个词不太受欢迎，于是现在就大可以拿掉那个词了，我不太确定。是的，是的。是的，我明白你的意思。克：所以，先生，当你感到有责任时，
48:12	K: So, sir, when you feel responsible, there is a flowering of real affection, you understand, sir? A flowering of care for a child, and you don't train him, or condition him to go and kill another for the sake of your country. You follow? All that is involved in it. So, we come to a point, where a human being, as he is now, so conditioned to be irresponsible, what are the serious people going to do with the irresponsible people? You understand? Education, politics, religion, everything is making human beings irresponsible. I am not exaggerating. This is so.	真爱之花就开放了，你明白吗，先生？对孩子的关爱之花绽放时，你就不会训练他或者制约他去为了祖国利益而杀害别人。你明白吗？所有这些都蕴含其中。那么，我们就来到了一个关口上，一个人就像他现在这样，受到了如此严重的制约，以致于毫无责任感，那么认真的人对不负责任的人会做什么呢？你明白吗？教育、政治、宗教，一切都让人类不负责任。我不是夸大其词。事实就是这样。安：噢不，你没有夸张。是这样的。
49:36	A: Oh no, you are not exaggerating. Yes.	克：那么，作为一个人我看到了这一点，
49:39	K: Now, I see this, as a human being, I say, what am I to do? You follow, sir? What is my responsibility in face of the irresponsible?	我说，我要怎么办？你明白吗，先生？面对不负责任的人们，我的责任是什么？安：哦，如果要说从哪开始，就像我们在英语中说的，
49:54	A: Well, if it's to start anywhere, as we say in English, it must start at home. It would have to start with me. K: Yes, at home. So I say, that's the whole point. I have to start with me. A: Right.	那就必须从自家开始。必须从我开始。克：是的，从自家开始。所以我说，这就是整个事情的关键所在。我必须从自己开始。安：没错。克：然后从这里就提出了这个问题：
50:04	K: Then from that the question arises: then you can't do anything about the irresponsible.	这时你不能对不负责任的人做任何事情。安：对。完全正确。克：啊，不，先生。
50:12	A: No. Exactly. K: Ah, no, sir. Something strange takes place.	然后奇怪的事情发生了。安：噢，我误解了你。抱歉。
50:18	A: Oh, I misunderstood you. I'm sorry. What I meant by replying there is that I don't attack the irresponsible.	我刚才的回应意思是我不去攻击不负责任的人。克：对，不攻击。安：对，不攻击。好的，请继续。
50:25	K: No. No. A: No, no. Yes, go ahead, yes.	克：奇怪的事情发生了，那就是：
50:27	K: Something strange takes place, which is: consciousness, the irresponsible consciousness is one thing, and the consciousness of responsibility is another. Now, when the human being is totally responsible, that responsibility, unconsciously, enters into the irresponsible mind. I don't know if I'm conveying anything.	意识，不负责任的意识是一回事，负责任的意识是另一回事。那么，当这个人完全负责任，这种责任，不知不觉地，进入了不负责任的心智。我不知道我是否说清楚了。安：是的。不，不，请继续。
51:05	A: Yes. No, no, go ahead.	克：先生，请看。我是不负责任的。
51:09	K: Sir, look. I'm irresponsible. Suppose I'm irresponsible, you are responsible. You can't do anything consciously with me. Because the more you actively operate on me, I resist.	假设我不负责任，你是负责任的。你不能有意识地对我做任何事情。因为你越是积极地对我想方设法，我就越是抗拒。安：对，说得对。
51:29	A: That's right, that's right. That's what I meant by no attacking.	这就是我说的“不攻击”的意思。克：不攻击。我对你作出暴力的反应。
51:33	K: No attacking. I react violently to you. I build a wall against you. I hurt you. I do all kinds of things. But you see that you cannot do anything consciously, actively, let's put it that way.	我建起一道墙抵抗你。我伤害你。我做各种各样的事。但是你明白你不能做任何有意识的、主动的事情，让我们这样来表述。安：故意地。克：故意地，有计划地，
51:48	A: Designedly. K: Designedly, planned, which is what they are all trying to do. But if you can talk to me, to my unconscious, because the unconscious is much more active, much more alert, much more... sees the danger much quicker than the conscious. So it is much more sensitive. So if you can talk to me, to the unconscious, that operates. So you don't actively, designedly attack the irresponsible. They have done it. And they have made a mess of it.	他们都试图这样做。但是，如果你能够与我交谈，与我的无意识对话，因为无意识更加活跃，更加警觉，能够比意识更迅速地看到危险。所以它更加敏感。所以，如果你可以与我，与我的无意识交谈，那就会起作用。所以你不会主动地、故意地去攻击不负责任的人。而他们就是那么做的。他们已经把事情弄得一团糟了。安：是的，那使事情更加混乱、更加复杂。
52:39	A: Oh yes, it compounds, complicates the thing further.	克：然而，如果你和他交谈，你和我交谈，
52:41	K: Whereas if you talk to him, you talk to me, but your whole inward intention is to show how irresponsible I am, what responsibility means - you follow? - you care. In other words, you care for me. A: Yes, yes. I was chuckling because the complete and total opposite crossed my mind, and it just seemed so absolutely absurd. Yes.	你内心的全部意图只是展现出我是多么不负责任，还有责任意味着什么 ——你明白吗？——你关心。换句话说，你关心我。安：是的，我刚才笑了一下，是因为完全相反的东西划过了我的脑海，那看起来荒谬无比。没错。克：你关心我，因为我不负责任。
53:11	K: You care for me, because I am irresponsible. You follow? A: Exactly.	你明白吗？安：是的。克：所以你关心我。因而你小心翼翼地不伤害我，
53:17	K: Therefore you care for me. And therefore you are watching not to hurt me, not to... you follow? In that way you penetrate very, very deeply into my unconscious. And that operates unknowingly, when suddenly I say, 'By Jove, how irresponsible I am' - you follow? - that operates. I have seen this, sir, in operation, because I've talked for 50 years, unfortunately or fortunately, to large audiences, tremendous resistance to anything new. Say, if I said, 'Don't read sacred books', which I say all the time, because you are just conforming, obeying. You are not living. You are living according to some book that you have read. Immediately there is resistance: 'Who are you to tell us?'	不去......你明白吗？以这种方式，你就非常、非常深入地渗透到了我的无意识中。而这是在不知不觉中起作用的，然后我突然说， “天啊，我是多么不负责任啊”——你明白吗？—— 这种方式起了作用。先生，我看到了这在起作用，因为我已经讲了50年，不幸或者幸运的是，大部分听众对于新事物都有巨大的抵触。比如，如果我说，“不要读圣书，” 我一直在讲这一点，因为你只是在遵从、服从，你没有活着。你是在根据你读过的某本书来生活的。人们马上就会产生抵触：“你又是谁，来告诉我们这些？” 安：不要去做什么事。克：不要做这个或者那个。
54:24	A: Not to do something. K: Not to do this or to do that. So I say, all right. I go on pointing out, pointing out. I'm not trying to change them. I'm not doing propaganda, because I don't believe in propaganda. It's a lie. So I say, look, look what you do when you are irresponsible. You are destroying your children. You send them to war to be killed and to be maimed, and to kill and to maim. Is that an act of love, is that affection, is that care? Why do you do it? And I go into it. They get bewildered. They don't know what to do! You follow, sir? So it begins to slowly seep in.	所以我说，好吧。我继续指出来，指出来。我不试图去改变他们。我不是在做宣传，因为我不相信宣传。那是谎言。所以我说，请看，看看当你不负责任时你做了些什么。你在毁掉你的孩子。你让他们去参战，去被杀死或者弄残，或者去杀死、弄残别人。那是爱的行动吗？那是慈悲吗，那是关怀吗？你为什么那样做？而我深入探讨了这个问题。他们感到困惑。他们不知道怎么办！你明白吗，先生？所以我的话慢慢渗透了进去。安：哦，一开始你的话是如此让人震惊，
55:15	A: Well, at first it's such a shock. It sounds positively subversive to some.	在一些人听来确实是颠覆性的。克：噢，绝对，绝对是颠覆性的。
55:23	K: Oh, absolutely, absolutely subversive.	安：当然，当然，是的。
55:25	A: Of, course, of course. Yes.	克：所以，我们现在就进入了另一个问题，那就是：
55:31	K: So we enter now into something, which is: my relationship to another, when there is total responsibility, in which freedom and care go together, the mind has no image in relationship at all. Because the image is the division. Where there is care, there is no image.	我和另一个人的关系，当存在着完全的责任， ——在这责任中，爱与自由是并肩而行的—— 此时心智在关系中根本不抱有任何意象，因为意象就是分裂。哪里有关怀，哪里就没有意象。安：这会带我们进入
56:12	A: This would lead us into what perhaps later we could pursue: love.	我们随后可能会探究的问题：爱。克：啊，那是一个伟大的事物。安：是的，是的。
56:22	K: Ah, that's a tremendous thing. A: Yes, yes.	克：我们必须深入探讨这个问题。安：我们可否
56:26	K: We have to go into it. A: Could we lay a few words before that, I don't know necessarily that next time we would do that, but it would come naturally. I've been listening to what you have been saying, and it's occurred to me that, if one is responsible and care is continuous with that, one would not fear. One could not fear. Not would not, could not, K: Could not, you're not capable.	在探讨它之前先说几句，我并不确定我们下一次就会探讨这个问题，而是说它自然会出现。我一直在聆听你讲的话，这令我想到，如果一个人是负责任的，而关怀也随之而来，那么这个人就不会恐惧。这个人不可能恐惧。不是不会，是不可能。克：不可能，你无法恐惧。安：不可能害怕。克：你看，那实际上意味着，一个人必须了解恐惧。
57:04	A: ...could not fear.	安：一个人必须懂得恐惧。
57:06	K: You see, that means really, one must understand fear.	克：也必须了解对快乐的追求。
57:13	A: One must understand fear.	那两者是并肩而行的。它们不是两件分开的事情。
57:15	K: And also the pursuit of pleasure. Those two go together. They are not two separate things.	安：我在我们的讨论中学到的是
57:24	A: What I have learned here in our discussion is that what it is, if I have followed you correctly, that we should turn ourselves toward understanding, is not what are called values. K: Oh no!	——如果我正确地理解了你所说的话—— 我们应该让自己把注意力转向了解，而不是我们所谓的价值观。克：噢，是的！安：我们不懂爱。
57:43	A: We don't understand love. We understand all those things which we catch ourselves into, that militate against any possibility whatsoever. This is what's so hard to hear, to be told that there just is no possibility. This produces immense terror. Do you think next time when we converse together we could begin at that point where we could discuss fear?	我们懂得所有那些把我们自己卷进去的事情，那些事情妨碍了任何一种可能性的出现。有人告诉我们完全没有任何可能，这一点听起来很难接受。这带来了无边的恐惧。你觉得我们下次一起谈话的时候可以从讨论恐惧这一点开始吗？？克：噢，可以。安：好的。克：但是，先生，在我们探讨恐惧之前，
58:17	K: Oh yes. A: Good.	有一件事我们应该先来仔细地讨论一下：
58:18	K: But, sir, before we enter fear, there is something which we should discuss very carefully: what is order in freedom?	自由中的秩序是什么？安：好的，好的，是的，是的。
58:36	A: Fine, fine, yes, yes.