克里希那穆提 - 秩序从我们对失序的了解中来

Krishnamurti Subtitles

SD74CA5 - 秩序从我们对失序的了解中来
与艾伦·W·安德森博士的第五次对话
美国，加利福尼亚，圣地亚哥
1974年2月20日

0:36	Krishnamurti in Dialogue with Dr. Allan W. Anderson	克里希那穆提与艾伦·W·安德森博士的对话
0:41	J. Krishnamurti was born in South India and educated in England. For the past 40 years he has been speaking in the United States, Europe, India, Australia, and other parts of the world. From the outset of his life's work he repudiated all connections with organised religions and ideologies and said that his only concern was to set man absolutely unconditionally free. He is the author of many books, among them The Awakening of Intelligence, The Urgency of Change, Freedom From the Known, and The Flight of the Eagle. This is one of a series of dialogues between Krishnamurti and Dr. Allan W. Anderson, who is professor of religious studies at San Diego State University where he teaches Indian and Chinese scriptures and the oracular tradition. Dr. Anderson, a published poet, received his degree from Columbia University and the Union Theological Seminary. He has been honoured with the distinguished Teaching Award from the California State University.	J·克里希那穆提出生在南印度，而后在英国接受教育。在过去的40年里，他曾在美国、欧洲、印度、澳大利亚以及世界其他地方发表演讲。在他毕生的事业刚刚开始的时候，他就断绝了与有组织的宗教和意识形态的所有关系，并说他唯一关心的是让人获得绝对的、无条件的自由。他著有多本著作，如《智慧的觉醒》、《转变的紧迫性》、《从已知中解脱》和《鹰的翱翔》等。这是克里希那穆提与艾伦·W·安德森博士的系列对话之一。安德森博士是圣地亚哥州立大学宗教研究学的教授，讲授印度和中国的经文和神谕传统文化。安德森博士，是一位有诗作出版的诗人，从哥伦比亚大学和纽约协和神学院获得了学位。他曾经获得加州州立大学授予的杰出教学奖。
1:49	A: Mr. Krishnamurti, when we were speaking last time, it seemed to me, that we had together reached the point where you were about to discuss order, converse about order, and I thought perhaps we could begin with that today, if that's agreeable with you.	安：克里希那穆提先生，在我们上次的谈话中，在我看来，我们一起到达了这一步，那就是你要探讨秩序，谈谈有关秩序的问题，而我想也许我们今天可以从这一点开始谈起，如果你同意的话。
2:14	K: I think we were talking about freedom, responsibility, and relationship. And before we go any further, we thought we'd talk over together this question of order. What is order in freedom? As one observes, all over the world, there is such extraordinary disorder.	克：我想我们探讨过了自由、责任和关系。而在进一步探讨之前，我们认为我们需要一起来讨论秩序这个问题。什么是自由中的秩序呢？如你所观察到的，全世界范围内都存在着非常严重的失序。
2:54	A: Oh yes. K: Outwardly and inwardly. One wonders why there is such disorder. You go to India and you see the streets filled with people, bursting with population. And you see also so many sects, so many gurus, so many teachers, so many contradictory lies, such misery. And you come to Europe: there is a little more order, but you see, when you penetrate the superficial order, there is equal disorder. And you come to this country, - and you know what it is like, better than I do - there is complete disorder. You may drive very carefully, but go behind the facade of so-called order and you see chaos, not only in personal relationship, but sexually, morally, so much corruption. All governments are corrupt, some more, some less. But this whole phenomenon of disorder, how has it come about? Is it the fault of the religions that have said: do this and don't do that? And now they are revolting against all that?	安：噢，是的。克：外在和内在都是如此。我们想知道为什么存在这么严重的失序。你到印度会看到街上挤满了人，人口几乎爆炸了。而且你也看到有那么多的教派，那么多的上师，那么多的导师，那么多互相矛盾的谎言，还有如此深重的苦难。而当你来到欧洲：秩序会好一点儿，但当你穿透了表面的秩序，你会看到同样存在着失序。你来到这个国家， ——你比我更清楚它是什么样子—— 这里也存在着完全的失序。你可能非常小心地开车，但在所谓秩序的表象背后，你能看到混乱，不仅在个人关系中，而且在性方面、在道德方面，都是如此地腐败。所有的政府都是腐败的，有的多一些，有的少一些。而这整个失序的现象是怎么产生的呢？是说“要这样做，不要那样做“的宗教的错吗？而现在人们又在反抗那一切？
4:45	A: Yes.	安：是的。
4:46	K: Is it governments are so corrupt that nobody has any trust in governments? Is it there is such corruption in business, nobody wants to look at it even, any intelligent man, any man who is really serious. And you look at family life, there is such disorder. So taking the whole phenomenon of disorder, why is there such disorder? What has brought it about?	克：是因为政府如此腐败以至于没有人信任政府吗？是因为商业中如此腐败，甚至都没有人——任何有智慧的人，任何真正认真的人——想去看看这个问题吗？而且你看看家庭生活，也存在这种失序。因此，拿整个失序现象来说，为什么存在这种失序？它是如何产生的？
5:29	A: Doesn't it appear that there is a sort of necessary, almost built-in progression in terms of the way we have mentioned necessity earlier, once order so conceived is superimposed upon an existing situation, not only does it not effect what is hoped for, but it creates a new situation which we think requires a new approach. And the new approach is still the superimposition.	安：这看起来难道不是因为存在着一种必要的、几乎是内在固有的发展方式，也就是我们先前提到的那种必需的方式，一旦如此设想出来的秩序被强加到一种现有的状况中，不仅它没有对所希望的事情产生影响，而且它制造了一种新的状况，而我们认为这个新状况需要一个新方法。但这个新方法仍然是进一步的叠加。
6:06	K: Like the communists are doing in Russia and China. They have imposed order - what they call order - on a disordered mind. And therefore there is a revolt. So looking at all this, it's very interesting, looking at all this phenomenon of disorder, what is order then? Is order something imposed, order as in the military, on the soldier, imposed order, a discipline which is a conformity, suppression, imitation? Is order conformity?	克：就像共产主义者在俄罗斯和中国正在做的一样。他们将秩序 ——他们所谓的秩序——强加到失序的心智上。因而就会存在反抗。所以，看看这一切，这非常有趣，看到了这所有失序的现象之后，那么，什么是秩序呢？秩序是某种强加的东西吗？就像在军队中，秩序被强加到士兵身上，秩序是遵从、压抑和模仿的戒律吗？秩序是遵从吗？
7:03	A: Not in the sense that it's artificially imposed, yes.	安：不是指“它是人为强加的”那种含义，没错。
7:06	K: In any sense. If I conform to an order, I am creating disorder.	克：无论如何都不是。如果我遵从某种秩序，我就是在制造失序。
7:20	A: Yes, yes, I understand what you mean. In our use of the word 'conform' we sometimes mean by it a natural relation between the nature of a thing and the activities that are proper to it or belong to it. But then that use of the word 'conform' is not the use that is usual and the one that we are concerned with here.	安：是的，是的，我理解你的意思。在我们对“遵从”这个词的用法中，我们有时是指在某个事物的性质与适合它或属于它的行为之间有一种自然的关系，但这时“遵从”这个词的这种用法并不是通常的用法，也不是我们在这里关心的用法。
7:50	K: No. No. So is order conformity? Is order imitation? Is order acceptance, obedience? Or, because we have conformed, because we have obeyed, because we have accepted, we have created disorder. Because discipline - in the ordinary accepted sense of that word - is to conform.	克：不是，不是。那么，秩序是遵从吗？秩序是模仿吗？秩序是接受、服从吗？或者，因为我们遵守了，因为我们服从了，因为我们接受了，我们就已经制造了失序。因为，纪律 ——在这个词所公认的意义上——就是去遵从。
8:28	A: Yes, we say in English, don't we, to someone who appears to be undisciplined, or who in fact is undisciplined, we say, 'straighten up'. K: Straighten up, yes.	安：是的，在英语里我们对某个看起来没规矩或实际上就是没规矩的人，我们会说，“改邪归正”。克：改邪归正，是的。
8:40	A: The images that we use to refer to that correction are always rigid, aren't they? K: Yes.	安：我们用来说明那种纠正的形象总是很强硬，难道不是吗？克：是的。
8:48	A: Yes, yes. K: So that authority, whether the communist authority of the few, or the authority of the priest, or the authority of someone who says 'I know and you don't know', that is one of the factors that has produced disorder. And one of the factors of this disorder is our lack of real culture. We are very sophisticated, very so-called civilised, in the sense we are clean, we have bathrooms, we have better food and all that, but inwardly we are not cultured. We are not healthy whole human beings.	安：是的，就是。克：所以，那种权威，无论是共产主义的少数人的权威，还是牧师的权威，或者某个说“我知道而你们不知道”的人具有的权威，都是制造了失序的因素之一。而这种失序的另一个因素是我们缺乏真正的文化。我们非常世故，非常“文明”——所谓的文明，也就是我们很整洁，我们有浴室，我们有更好的食物以及诸如此类，但我们内在却没有文化。我们并不是健康的、完整的人类。
9:47	A: The inner fragmentation spills out into our operations, externally.	安：内在的分裂向外泛滥到我们外在的日常生活中。
9:53	K: So unless we understand disorder, the nature of disorder, the structure of disorder, we can never find out what is order. Out of the understanding of disorder comes order. Not first seek order and then impose that order on disorder. I don't know if I make myself clear. A: Yes, I do. I'm thinking as you are speaking of the phenomenon in the world of study, and the world of teaching and learning as we understand them conventionally. I've noticed in our conversations that you always suggest that we study some dysfunction. We are never invited really to do that; we are given the notion that the thing to study is the principle involved. The argument for that, of course, is that one refers to health in order to understand disease.	克：所以除非我们理解了失序，失序的本质、失序的结构，否则我们永远不会发现什么是秩序。秩序来自于对失序的了解，而不是先寻找秩序然后将那种秩序强加在失序之上。我不知道我是否表达清楚了。安：是的，我明白了。当你讲话时我想到了学术界以及教育界的现象，就像我们通常对它们理解的那样。我注意到在我们的谈话中你总是建议我们去研究某种紊乱的状况。我们确实从来没有被鼓励去那样做；我们被灌输的概念是要研究的东西是其中的原理。当然，支持这一点的理由是，为了理解疾病你就需要参考健康的标准。
11:13	K: Quite, quite. A: But then the reference to health, when that is said, is received purely conceptually. K: Quite, quite.	克：没错，非常对。安：但接下来，对健康的参照 ——当参照被说出来时—— 是被纯粹作为概念接受的。克：没错，是的。
11:22	A: So what we are studying is now a concept.	安：所以，我们所研究的于是就变成了一个概念。
11:25	K: Is a concept rather than the actuality, than the 'what is'.	克：是一个概念而不是事实，不是“现在如何”。
11:28	A: And we slip out of the true task. There is a difficulty in grasping the suggestion that we study the disorder simply because disorder by its own condition is without an ordering principle. Therefore it sounds when it comes out as though I am being asked to study something that is unstudyable. But to the contrary.	安：我们偏离了真正的任务。在理解“我们研究失序”的建议中存在着某种困难，就是因为失序由于其自身的局限是不具有带来秩序的准则的。所以，当失序出现时，听起来就好像我被要求去研究某个不可研究的事情。但是正相反。
12:02	K: On the contrary. A: Yes. Now I'll stop. You go ahead. On the contrary. You were about to say something. K: On the contrary. There must be an understanding of disorder, why it has come about. One of the factors, sir, is basically that thought is matter and thought by its very nature is fragmentary. Thought divides, the 'me' and the 'not me', we and they, my country and your country, my ideas and your ideas, my religion and your religion, and so on. The very movement of thought is divisive, because thought is the response of memory, response of experience, which is the past. And unless we really go into this question very, very deeply: the movement of thought and the movement of disorder...	克：正相反。安：是的。现在我停下来，请你继续讲。正相反。你刚要说点什么。克：正相反。必须先有对失序的理解，它为什么产生。先生，从根本上说因素之一是思想是物质，并且思想在本质上恰恰是分裂的。思想划分了 “我” 和 “非我”，我们和他们，我的国家和你的国家，我的想法和你的想法，我的宗教和你的宗教，等等。思想的运动本身就是分裂的，因为思想是记忆的反应，经验的反应，而经验就是过去。除非我们真的非常非常深入地探究这个问题：思想的运动和失序的运动
13:34	A: That seems to me to be a key word, from my understanding in listening to you, 'movement'. To study the movement of disorder would seem to me to take it a step deeper than the phrase 'to study disorder'. With the word 'movement' we are dealing with act.	安：在我看来那是一个关键词： ——从我听你讲话时的理解来说——“运动”。去研究失序的运动，在我看来，比那个短语“去研究失序” 更深入了一步。我们正在用“运动”这个词探究行为。
13:56	K: The movement. A: Exactly. The career of disorder. K: The movement.	克：运动。安：正是。失序的运作。克：运动。
14:01	A: Yes, if that is what we are directed upon, then, I think, the objection that the study of disorder is to undertake an impossible pursuit is not made with any foundation. That objection loses its force precisely at the point when one says, 'no, no, it's not disorder as a concept we are dealing with here, it's the movement of it, it's its own career, it's its passage, it's the whole corruption of the act as such'. Yes, yes, exactly. I keep on saying this business about act all the time, and perhaps it seems repetitious. K: Oh, that's absolutely right.	安：是的，如果那就是我们的探究所指向的方向，那么，我认为，这种反对意见即，对失序的研究是在进行一种没有可能完成的追求，就失去了基础。那种反对意见恰恰在那一点上失去了力量：当一个人说， “不，不，我们在这里处理的不是作为概念的失序，而是它的活动、它的运作、它的路径，是这种行为本身整体的堕落”。是的，是的，正是如此。我一直在说这件关于行动的事情，可能显得很重复。克：噢，你说的很对。
14:46	A: But you know, hardly ever is that taken seriously...	安：但你知道，这件事情几乎从未被
14:52	K: I know, sir. A: ...by our species. Of course, the animals are on to that from the beginning, but we don't.	克：我知道，先生。安：……认真对待过。当然，动物从一开始就与那样的东西有接触，而我们没有。
15:00	K: No. You see, we deal with concepts, not with 'what is', actually what is. Rather than discuss formulas, concepts and ideas, 'what is' is disorder. And that disorder is spreading all over the world, it's a movement, it's a living disorder. It isn't a disorder which is dead. It is a living thing, moving, corrupting, destroying.	克：没有。你看，我们跟概念打交道，而不是“现在如何”，现在实际如何。而是讨论模式、观念和想法——“现在如何”就是失序。而且这种失序遍布于全世界。它是一种运动，它是一种活跃的失序。它不是死去的失序。它是一个活生生的东西，正在运动着、腐蚀着、破坏着。
15:36	A: Yes. Exactly, exactly. But it takes - as you pointed out so often - an extreme concentration of attention to follow movement, and there is a rebellion in us against following movement, which perhaps lies in our disaffection with the intuition that we have that transition is unintelligible.	安：是的，正是，正是。但正如你经常指出的，理解运动，需要注意力高度集中，而我们身上存在着一种对“理解那种运动”的反抗，那可能是由于我们不满我们拥有的这种直觉：那种转换是难以理解的。
16:13	K: Of course. Quite, quite. A: And we don't want that. We can't stand the thought that there is something that is unintelligible. And so we just will not make that active attention.	克：当然，你说的非常对。安：而我们不希望那样。我们无法忍受存在某种难以理解的事物这个想法。所以我们就是不会进行积极的关注。
16:25	K: It's like sitting on the bank of a river and watching the waters go by. You can't alter the water, you can't change the substance or the movement of the water. In the same way this movement of disorder is part of us and is flowing outside of us. So, one has to look at it.	克：就像坐在河岸上看着河水流过。你无法改变流水，你无法改变水的运动的实质。同样地，这种失序的运动是我们的一部分，并且正在我们身外流淌。因此，你必须去看它。安：在行动中完全不存在困惑。
16:52	A: And there is no confusion in the act at all.	克：当然不存在。
16:55	K: Obviously not. First of all, sir, let's go into it very, very carefully. What is the factor of disorder? Disorder means contradiction, right?	先生，首先让我们非常非常仔细地探究这个问题。造成失序的因素是什么？失序意味着矛盾，对吧？安：是的。以及冲突。是的。
17:15	A: Yes. And conflict. Yes.	克：矛盾。这个与那个对立。
17:17	K: Contradiction. This opposed to that. Or the duality: this opposed to that.	或者二元性：这个与那个相反。安：在两个事物之间有争执，
17:29	A: The contention between two things to be mutually exclusive.	相互排斥。克：是的。安：是的。
17:33	K: Yes. A: Yes.	克：那么是什么带来了
17:34	K: And what brings about this duality, and the conflict? Is there a duality at all?	这种二元性和冲突？究竟存在二元性吗？安：当然在行动中不存在，不存在二元性。
17:52	A: Certainly not in act, there is not a duality. That simply couldn't be. There certainly could be said, not even with respect, don't you think, to thought itself and its operation that there is a dualism. But the duality, of course, is present in terms of distinction, but not in terms of division. K: Division, that's right.	就是不可能存在。当然，甚至可以不客气地说，对思想本身和它的运作来说，你难道不认为，确实存在一种二元性。但是当然，二元性表现在识别中，而不是划分。克：划分，是的。安：不是按照划分。克：不是按照。
18:20	A: Not in terms of division. K: Not in terms.	安：是的，是的。我理解。
18:21	A: Yes, yes. I follow.	克：归根结底，存在男人和女人，
18:22	K: After all, there is man, woman, black and white, and so on, but is there an opposite to violence? You've understood? A: Yes, I'm listening very intently.	黑色和白色，等等，但是，对于暴力来说存在着对立面吗？你理解了吗？安：是的，我在非常用心地听。克：或者只存在暴力？
18:38	K: Or only violence? But we have created the opposite. Thought has created the opposite as non-violence and then the conflict between the two. The non-violence is an abstraction of the 'what is'. And thought has done that.	但是我们制造出了对立面。思想制造出了非暴力这个对立面，然后在两者之间就产生了冲突。非暴力是对“现在如何”的抽象。思想就是这么做的。安：正是。昨天我在课堂上
19:05	A: Exactly. Yesterday I had a difficult time in class over this. I made the remark that vice is not the opposite of virtue, virtue is not the opposite of vice, and somehow I just couldn't, it seems, communicate that because of the insistence on the part of the students to deal with the problem purely in terms of a conceptual structure.	遇到了这方面的困难。我评论说邪恶不是美德的对立面，美德不是邪恶的对立面，可是不知怎的，我似乎就是无法沟通这一点，因为学生们坚持完全参照某个概念体系去处理问题。克：你看，先生，
19:43	K: You see, sir, I don't know if you want to go into it now, or if it is the right occasion: from ancient Greece - you must know - measurement was necessary to them. Measurement. And the whole of the Western civilisation is based on measurement, which is thought.	我不知道机会是否合适，或者你现在是否想探讨：从古希腊开始——你肯定知道—— 衡量对他们来说就是必要的。衡量。而整个西方文明就是基于衡量的，而衡量就是思想。安：在连续性的练习中当然是这样的。
20:26	A: This is certainly true in continuous practice. It is certainly true. And the irony of it is that an historian, looking at the works of the great Greek thinkers, would turn around and say at this point, 'Well, now just wait a minute'. And we would say some things about Aristotle and Plato, that would suggest that: no, no, no, there's a much more organic grasp of things than simply approaching it in a slide rule way, but that doesn't come to terms with what you are saying. I think that's right.	当然是这样的。而这里具有讽刺意味的是，一位历史学家，在研究了希腊伟大思想家的著作之后，这时他回过头来说， “哦，请稍等。” 而我们愿意说点关于亚里士多德和柏拉图的事情，那些事情说明：完全不是这样，比起单纯用计算尺的方式，还有一种更根本的理解事物的方式，但那与你所说的并不相符。我认为是这样的。克：先生，你可以看到世界上正在发生着什么，
21:06	K: Sir, you can see what is happening in the world, in the Western world: technology, commercialism, and consumerism is the highest activity that is going on now. A: Exactly.	在西方世界：技术、商业主义和消费主义是如今最活跃的活动。安：正是。克：这些都基于衡量。安：当然。噢，是的。
21:24	K: Which is based on measurement. A: Certainly. Oh yes.	克：而衡量就是思想。
21:29	K: Which is thought. Now, look at it a minute, hold that a minute and you will see something rather odd taking place. The East, especially India, India exploded over the East, in a different sense, they said measurement is illusion. To find the immeasurable the measurement must come to an end. I'm putting it very crudely and quickly.	现在，看看这个问题，好好体会片刻，你就会看到某种相当奇怪的事情发生了。东方，特别是印度——印度深刻地影响了整个东方在另一种的意义上—— 他们说衡量是幻觉。要发现不可衡量之物衡量必须终止。我表达得非常粗略和快捷。安：不。在我看来
22:04	A: No. But it seems to me that you are putting it precisely well with respect to this concern we have with act.	就我们对行动的这种关注来说你表达得非常精确。克：好。安：是的，并不粗略。
22:11	K: Yes. A: Yes. It's not crude.	克：这非常有趣，因为我观察过。
22:13	K: It's very interesting because I've watched it. In the West, technology, commercialism and consumerism; God, saviour, church - all that's outside. It is a plaything. And you just play with it on Saturday and Sunday, but the rest of the week... A: Yes.	在西方，有着技术、商业主义和消费主义；上帝、救世主和教会——那一切都是外在的。那是一种玩物。并且你只在礼拜六和礼拜天玩，而一周的其他时间不玩…… 安：是的。克：而你到印度也会看到这种情况。
22:38	K: And you go to India and you see this. The word 'ma' is to measure, in Sanskrit, and they said reality is immeasurable. Go into it, see the beauty of it. A: Yes, oh yes, I follow.	在梵文中，“ma”这个词的意思是衡量，而他们说，真相是不可衡量的。请深入探讨这一点，看看其中的美。安：是的，是的，我理解。克：衡量永远不会发现
23:03	K: The measurement can never find... A mind that is measuring, or a mind that is caught in measurement, can never find truth. I'm putting it that way. They don't put it that way, but I'm putting it. So they said, to find the real, the immense, measurement must end. But they use thought as a means to... thought must be controlled, they said.	一个在衡量的心智或者一个被困在衡量中的心智，永远不会发现真理。我以这种方式来表达。他们不这样说，而我是这样说的。所以他们说，要发现真实之物、无限之物，衡量必须终止。但他们把思想用作工具去实现他们说，思想必须得到控制。安：是的，是的。
23:41	A: Yes, yes.	克：你理解吗？安：是的，我理解。
23:42	K: You follow? A: Yes, I do.	克：所以，为了发现不可衡量之物
23:44	K: So, in order to find the immeasurable you must control thought. And to control, who is the controller of thought? Another fragment of thought. I don't know if you follow.	你必须控制思想。而要控制的话，谁是思想的控制者？另一个思想的碎片而已。我不知道你是否理解了。安：我完全理解你说的。是的，我理解。
23:57	A: I follow you perfectly, yes, I do.	克：所以，他们利用衡量
23:59	K: So, they use measurement to go beyond measurement. And therefore they could never go beyond it. They were caught in an illusion of some other kind, but it is still the product of thought. I don't know if I'm... A: Yes, yes. What flashed over my mind as you were speaking was the incredible irony of their having right in front of them - I'm thinking now of the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad - this profound statement: 'That is full', meaning anything that I think is over there, that's full. This - that I've divided off from that - this is full. 'From fullness to fullness issues forth'. And then the next line 'If fullness is taken away from the full, fullness indeed still remains'. Now they are reading that, but if they approach it in the manner in which you have so well described, they haven't read it in the sense of attended to what's being said, because it's the total rejection of that statement that would be involved in thought control.	去超越衡量。因而他们永远无法超越。他们被困在另一种幻觉中，但那仍然是思想的产物。我不知道我是否表达清楚了。安：是的，清楚了。当你讲话的时候闪过我脑海的是那种不可思议的讽刺性：在他们面前的恰恰是 ——我现在想到的是《广林奥义书》—— 这句深刻的表述： “那是圆满的”，意思是我思考的任何事情都在那里，那是圆满的。这——我是从那里分离出来的——这是圆满的。 “从圆满流向圆满”。接下来下一行是 “如果圆满被从圆满之物中拿走，圆满确实仍然保持不变。” 现在他们在读那些经文，但如果他们以你详细描述的方式来对待经文的话，他们读的时候就没有充分注意其中讲的意思，因为在思想控制中所发生的是对那种表述的完全拒绝。克：是的，当然，当然。
25:29	K: Yes, of course, of course. You see, that's what I've been trying to get at. You see, thought has divided the world physically: America, India, Russia, China - you follow? - divided the world. Thought has fragmented the activities of man: the businessman, the artist, the politician, the beggar, you follow? Fragmented man. A: Yes.	你看，那就是我一直在试图说明的。你知道，思想已经从外在将世界划分成了：美国，印度，俄罗斯，中国 ——你明白吗？——割裂了这个世界。思想已经将人类的活动划分得支离破碎：商人，艺术家，政客，乞丐，你明白吗？破碎的人类。安：是的。克：基于这种破碎
26:02	K: Thought has created a society based on this fragmentation. And thought has created the gods, the saviours, the Jesuses, the Christs, the Krishnas, the Buddhas, and those are all measurable, in the sense 'you must become like the Christ' or 'you must be good'. All sanctioned by a culture, which is based on measurement.	思想建立了一个社会。并且思想制造了神明和救世主，耶稣们，基督们，克里希那们，佛陀们，并且这些都是可以衡量的，也就是说 “你必须变得像基督一样” 或者“你必须善良”。一切都由某种文化来仲裁，而文化是以衡量为基础的。安：一旦你开始预测，就像我们通常所做的那样，
26:39	A: Once you start with forecasts, as we have classically, then we are going to necessarily move to five, six, seven, 400, 4000, an indefinite division. And all in the interest, it is claimed, of clarity. All in the interest of clarity.	接下来我们就有必要发展到 5种、6种、7种、400种、4000种，没完没了的划分。并且这一切都是为了——据说是为了——清晰。一切都是为了清晰。克：所以，除非我们理解了思想的运动，
26:56	K: So, unless we understand the movement of thought, we cannot possibly understand disorder. It is thought that has produced disorder! It sounds contradictory, but it is so, because thought is fragmentary, thought is time, and as long as we are functioning within that field, there must be disorder. Which is, each fragment is working for itself, in opposition to other fragments. I, a Christian, am in opposition to the Hindu, though I talk about love, and goodness, and all the rest of it.	否则我们不可能理解失序。正是思想制造了失序！这听起来很矛盾，但事实的确如此，因为思想是破碎的，思想是时间，而只要我们在那个领域内运作，就必定存在失序。就是说，每个碎片都在为它自己工作，与其他碎片相对立。我，一个基督教徒，与印度教徒相对立，尽管我谈论爱和善，以及诸如此类。安：我如此爱他以至于我希望他得到拯救，
28:00	A: I love him so much I want to see him saved, so I will go out and bring him into the fold.	所以我会出去把他带到阵营中来。克：得到拯救。请到我的阵营中来！安：是的，是的。
28:04	K: Saved. Come over to my camp! A: Yes, yes.	克：可能失序的根本原因
28:12	K: Probably, the basic cause of disorder is the fragmentation of thought. I was told the other day that in a certain culture thought means the outside.	是思想的破碎。前几天有人告诉我，在某个特别的文化中，思想意味着外在。安：这很有趣。
28:36	A: That's very interesting.	克：当他们要用“外面”这个意思时，
28:38	K: When they use the word 'outside', they use the word 'thought'.	他们用的是“思想”这个词。安：而我们认为它是内在的。
28:44	A: And we think it's inside.	克：这就是整个……你理解吗？
28:46	K: That's the whole... you follow?	安：多么不可思议。多么不可思议。
28:49	A: How marvellous. How marvellous.	克：因此思想总是外在的。
28:52	K: So thought is always outside. You can say, I am inwardly thinking. Thought has divided the outer and the inner. So to understand this whole contradiction, measurement, time, the division, the fragmentation, the chaos, and the disorder, one must really go into this question of what is thought, what is thinking. Can the mind, which has been so conditioned in fragments, in fragmentation, can that mind observe this whole movement of disorder, not fragmentarily? A: No, but the movement itself.	你可能会说，我内心在思考。思想已经分出了外在和内在。所以，要理解这整个矛盾、衡量、时间、区分、破碎、混乱和失序，一个人就必须真正深入探索 “什么是思想”、“什么是思考”这些问题。心智如此局限在碎片中、在破碎状态中，这种心智能否不以破碎的方式观察这整个失序的运动？安：是的，只是观察运动本身。克：运动本身。安：运动本身。是的。
29:47	K: Movement itself. A: Movement itself. Yes. But that's what's so terrifying to look at that movement. It's interesting that you've asked this question in a way that keeps boring in because measure is - and I'm going to put something now in a very concise, elliptical way - is possibility, which is infinitely divisible. It only comes to an end with an act, with an act. And as long as I remain divided against act, I regard myself as a very deep thinker. I'm sitting back exploring alternatives, which are completely imaginary, illusory. And in the business world men are paid extremely high salaries to come up with what is called a new concept.	而去看那种运动是多么可怕的事情。有趣的是你以一种持续深入钻研的方式在问这个问题，因为衡量是 ——现在我用一种非常简洁、简略的方式来表达—— 是一种可能性，而这种可能性是无限可分的。它只有借助某种行动才终止。而只要我与行动保持一种分开的状态，我就会把自己看作一个非常深刻的思想者。我舒适地坐着，探索另外的选项，而那完全是想象出来的、虚幻的。而在商业界人们得到高额的报酬去提出某种所谓的新概念。克：是的，新概念。
31:03	K: Yes, new concept.	安：当然，它的称呼是正确的，
31:06	A: And it's called by its right name, of course, but it isn't regarded correctly as to its nature. It isn't understood as to what's being said when that happens.	但就它的本质而言它没有得到正确的看待。当那种事情发生时，就我们现在所说的内容而言，它并没有得到理解。克：这引出了要点，即
31:20	K: That brings up the point, which is measurement means comparison. Our society, and our civilisation, is based on comparison. From childhood, to school, to college and university, it is comparative.	衡量意味着比较。我们的社会和我们的文明，都是基于比较的。从幼年时代，到上学，到上大学，到处都是比较。安：没错。
31:45	A: That's right.	克：在聪明和迟钝之间比较，
31:46	K: Comparison between intelligence and dullness, between the tall and the black, white and purple, and all the rest of it, comparison in success. And look at also our religions. The priest, the bishop - you follow? - the hierarchical outlook, ultimately the Pope or the archbishop. The whole structure is based on that. Compare, comparison, which is measurement, which is essentially thought.	在高和黑、白和紫，以及诸如此类之间比较，在成功中比较。而且看一下我们的宗教。牧师，主教， ——你理解吗？——等级性的观念，最后是教皇或大主教。整个结构都基于那种东西。比较，比较，也就是衡量，它本质上就是思想。安：是的。新教徒抱怨
32:28	A: Yes. The Protestants complain about the Catholic hierarchy, and yet their scripture, their Bible is what some Catholics call their paper pope.	天主教的等级制度，而他们的经典、他们的《圣经》就是某些天主教徒所说的他们的纸教皇。克：当然。安：当然。
32:43	K: Of course. A: Of course. Yes. With the very rejection of something, something takes its place, which becomes even more divisive.	随着对某种东西的拒绝，另外的东西就占据了它的位置，事情变得更加分裂。克：那么，是否可能
32:57	K: So, is it possible to look without measurement, that is without comparison? Is it possible to live a life - life, living, acting, laughing, the whole life, living, crying - without a shadow of comparison coming into it? Sir - I'm not boasting, I'm just stating a fact - I have never compared myself with anybody.	不带有衡量，即不带有比较地去看？是否可能过一种生活 ——生活、活着、行动、欢笑，整个生命，生活，哭泣—— 而不带有一丝比较的阴影？先生——我不是在吹嘘，我只是在陈述一个事实—— 我从来没有将自己与任何人比较过。安：这是一件无比非凡的事情。最为非凡的事情。
33:42	A: That's a most remarkable thing. Most remarkable thing.	克：我甚至从来想过这一点：
33:47	K: I never thought about it even: somebody much cleverer than me, somebody much more brilliant, so intelligent, somebody greater, spiritual - it didn't enter. Therefore, I say to myself, is measurement, comparison, imitation, are they not the major factors of disorder?	某个人比我聪明得多，某个人更杰出，那么有智慧，某个人更伟大，更有灵性——这些想法从来没出现过。所以，我对自己说，衡量、比较和模仿，它们不就是造成失序的主要因素吗？安：我曾经思考过很长时间，
34:20	A: I've had a very long thought about what you said a few conversations ago about when you were a boy and you never accepted the distinctions that were employed in a dividing way...	思考这几次谈话之前你说到过的一件事情：当你是一个男孩时，你从来不接受以划分的方式所进行的区别克：噢，当然，当然。
34:41	K: Oh, of course, of course.	安：……和在社会秩序中进行的区别。
34:42	A: ...and within the social order. And I had to think about my own growing up and accept the fact that I did accept this distinction in terms of division, but I didn't do it with nature. But that set up conflict in me, because I couldn't understand how it could be the case that I'm natural, as a being in the world, but I'm not somehow related to things the way things are in what we call nature. Then it suddenly occurred to me later that in thinking that way I was already dividing myself off from nature and I'd never get out of that problem.	然后我禁不住想到我自身的成长经历并承认如下的事实：我确实接受了这种按照划分进行的区别，但我不是本着天性去做这种事情的。但那在我内心引起了冲突，因为我无法理解事情是如何变成这样的：我作为一种自然的存在生活在这个世界上，但不知怎的我与事物相关联的方式却不是事物在我们所谓的自然中存在的方式。接下来我突然意识到在以那种方式思考的过程中我已经将自己从自然中分离了出来，并且我永远都无法摆脱这个问题。克：没错。
35:37	K: No.	安：几年前，电光火石之间
35:38	A: And the thing came to me some years ago with a tremendous flash, when I was in Bangkok in a temple garden. And, of an early morning, I was taking a walk, and my eye was drawn to a globule of dew resting on a lotus leaf, and it was perfectly circle. And I said, where's the base? How can it be stable? Why doesn't it roll off? By the time I got to the end of my 'whys' I was worn out, so I took a deep breath and I said, now shut up and just keep quiet and look. And I saw that each maintained its own nature in this marvellous harmony without any confusion at all. And I was just still.	我想到了这个事情，当时我是在曼谷一个寺庙的花园里。那是一个清晨，我正在散步，荷叶上的一滴露珠吸引了我的眼睛，它非常圆润。当时我说，它的基础在哪里? 它是如何能够稳定的？它为什么没有滴落？当我问完我所有的“为什么”时，我感到精疲力尽，于是我深深地吸了一口气，说，现在闭上嘴，只是保持安静然后去看。接下来我发现每颗露珠都保持着它自身的特性，处在这种没有任何混乱的不可思议的和谐中。我就静止在那里。克：没错。安：静止。
37:00	K: Quite. A: Still. I think that's something of what you mean about the fact... That was a fact.	我认为那就是你所说的事实那是一个事实。克：只是与事实共处。看着事实。
37:12	K: Just remain with the fact. Look at the fact.	安：荷叶上那颗不可思议的露珠是事实，
37:14	A: That marvellous globule on that leaf is the fact, is the act, is what is done. Isn't that what you...	是行动，是所完成的事。那难道不是你克：你说的对。安：对。是的。
37:26	K: That is correct. A: Right. Yes.	克：先生，从这里就引出了：一个人能否教育学生
37:28	K: Sir, from this arises, can one educate a student to live a life of non-comparison: bigger car, lesser car - you follow? Dull, you are clever, I am not clever. What happens, if I don't compare, at all? Will I become dull?	过一种没有比较的生活：大点儿的车，小点儿的车——你明白吗？迟钝，你聪明，我不聪明。如果我不做任何比较，会发生什么？我会变得迟钝吗？安：正相反。
37:59	A: On the contrary.	克：只有通过比较我才知道我迟钝。
38:02	K: I'm only dull, I know I'm dull only through comparison. If I don't compare, I don't know what I am. Then I begin from there.	如果我不比较，我不知道我怎么样。那么我就从这里开始。安：是的，是的，是的。
38:17	A: Yes, yes, yes. The world becomes infinitely accessible.	世界于是变得无限可及。克：是的，然后，整个事情就变得完全不同了！
38:25	K: Oh, then, the whole thing becomes extraordinarily different! There is no competition, there is no anxiety, there is no conflict with each other.	不存在竞争，不存在焦虑，不存在彼此的冲突。安：这就是你为什么经常采用“完全”这个词的原因。
38:37	A: This is why you use the word 'total' often, isn't it? K: Yes.	不是吗？克：是的。安：为了表达从一种情况到另一种情况的过程中
38:42	A: In order to express that there's nothing drawn out from one condition to the other. There is no link there, there is no bridge there. Totally disordered. Totally order. K: Absolutely.	没有得出任何其他东西。这两者之间不存在联系，不存在桥梁。完全地失序。完全地有序。克：绝对是这样。安：是的，并且你经常使用“绝对”这个词，
39:01	A: Yes, and you use the word 'absolute' often, which terrifies many people today.	现今它使很多人感到害怕。克：先生，归根结底，数学就是秩序。
39:09	K: Sir, after all, mathematics is order. The highest form of mathematical investigation - you must have a mind that is totally orderly.	最高形式的数学探索 ——你必须拥有一个完全有序的心智。安：关于数学的另一件不可思议的事情是，
39:27	A: The marvellous thing about maths too is whereas it's the study of quantity, you don't make passage from one integer to another by two getting larger. Two stops at two. Two and a half is no more two. Somehow that's the case. K: Yes.	尽管它是对数量的研究，但你不能通过让2变大而从一个整数过渡到另一个整数，2就停留在2上。 2.5就不再是2了。某种程度上事情就是这样的。克：是的。安：但一个孩子，当他被教授数学时，
39:51	A: But a child, when he is taught mathematics, is never introduced to that that I've ever heard of.	老师从来不教这些，就我听说的而言。克：你看，先生，我们的教育，一切都是如此荒谬。
39:58	K: You see, sir, our teaching, everything is so absurd. Is it possible, sir, to observe this movement of disorder with a mind that is disorderly itself, and say, can this mind observe disorder, this mind, which is already in a state of disorder? So disorder isn't out there, but in here. Now, can the mind observe that disorder without introducing a factor of an observer who is orderly?	先生，有没有可能用一个本身失序的心智去观察这种失序的运动？或者说，这个已经处于失序状态的心智能够观察失序吗？所以失序不在外面，而是在内心里。那么，心智能否观察这种失序而不引入一个有序的观察者这个因素？安：观察者会有所添加。克：是的。
41:00	A: Who will superimpose. K: Yes. Therefore observe, perceive disorder without the perceiver. I don't know if I am making sense at all.	因而去观察、察觉失序而不带有察觉者。我不知道我讲的是不是有道理。安：是的，你说的有道理。
41:15	A: Yes, you are making sense.	克：先生，就是说，
41:18	K: That is, sir, to understand disorder, we think an orderly mind is necessary.	我们认为，要理解失序，一个有序的心智是必要的。安：与失序的心智相反。
41:32	A: As over against the disorderly mind.	克：但正是心智本身制造了这种失序，
41:36	K: But the mind itself has created this disorder, which is thought, and all the rest of it. So can the mind not look at disorder out there, but at the maker of disorder which is in here?	即思想及诸如此类的制造了失序。所以，心智能否不去看外部的失序，而是去看内心失序的制造者？安：即看看失序的心智本身。
41:56	A: Which is itself the very mind as disorder.	克：心智本身就是失序的。安：是的。
41:58	K: Mind itself is disordered. A: Yes. But as soon as that is stated conceptually...	然而一旦这被表述成了概念克：不，不。概念都结束了。
42:04	K: No, no. Concepts are finished.	安：是的。但我们在使用词语。
42:08	A: Yes. But we are using words.	克：我们在使用词语交流。
42:10	K: We are using words to communicate.	安：正是。请等一下，我关心的是
42:12	A: Exactly. What I'm concerned with, just for a second, is what are we going to say when we hear the statement that it is the disordered mind that keeps proliferating disorder, but it is that disordered mind that must see, it must see.	当我们听到如下说法：正是失序的心智在持续增加失序，我们将会说些什么，但正是这个失序的心智必须去看，它必须看到。克：我会指给你看的，你立刻就会看到将会发生什么。
42:36	K: I'm going to show you, you will see in a minute what takes place. Disorder is not outside of me, disorder is inside of me. That's a fact. Because the mind is disorderly, all its activities must be disorderly. And the activities of disorder is proliferating or is moving in the world. Now, can this mind observe itself without introducing the factor of an orderly mind, which is the opposite?	失序不在我的外面，失序就在我的内心。这是一个事实。因为心智是失序的，所以它所有的活动都必定是失序的。而且失序的活动正在世界上增长或蔓延着。那么，这个心智能够观察自己而不引入作为对立面的有序的心智这个因素吗？安：是的，那当然是对立面。
43:25	A: Yes it is. Of course, it is the opposite.	克：因此，它能够观察而不带有
43:27	K: So can it observe without the observer, who is the opposite?	作为对立面的观察者吗？安：这就是问题。
43:39	A: That's the question.	克：那么，请观察它，先生，如果你真正对它感兴趣的话。
43:42	K: Now, watch it, sir, if you are really interested in it.	安：我对它有深厚的兴趣。克：你会看到的。
43:45	A: I am. I am deeply interested in it. K: You will see. The observer is the observed. The observer who says, I am orderly and I must put order in disorder. That is generally what takes place. But the observer is the factor of disorder. Because the observer is the past, is the factor of division. Where there is division, there is not only conflict, but disorder. You can see, sir, it is happening actually in the world. I mean all this problem of energy, all this problem of war, peace, and all the rest, can be solved absolutely when there are not separate governments, sovereign armies, and say, look, let's solve this problem all together, for God's sake! We are human beings. This earth is meant for us to live on, not Arabs and Israelis, and America, and Russia, it is our earth.	观察者就是被观察之物。观察者说“我是有序的，我必须在失序中建立秩序。” 这就是通常发生的事情。但观察者就是失序的因素。因为观察者是过去，是划分的因素。存在划分的地方，就不仅存在冲突，而且存在失序。你能看到，先生，这正在世界上实际发生着。我的意思是，所有这些能源问题，所有这些战争、和平问题以及诸如此类的问题，绝对能够得到解决，只要不存在各自分离的政府、主权军队，然后说，来吧，让我们一起来解决这个问题，看在老天的份上！我们是人类。这个地球本应是让我们居住在上面的，而不是分成阿拉伯人和以色列人，美国和俄罗斯，它是我们的地球。安：并且它是圆的。
45:05	A: And it's round.	克：但我们从来不那样做，因为我们的心智如此深受制约
45:09	K: But we will never do that, because our minds are so conditioned to live in disorder, to live in conflict.	以至于生活在失序中，生活在冲突中。安：而天职被赋予了一种宗教性的描述：
45:22	A: And vocation is given a religious description in terms of the task of cleaning up the disorder with my idea of order.	那是用我对秩序的设想去清除失序的使命。克：你对秩序的设想正是导致了失序的事实。
45:35	K: Your idea of order is the fact that has produced disorder.	安：正是。
45:40	A: Exactly.	克：所以，它引出了一个问题，先生，
45:42	K: So, it brings up a question, sir, which is very interesting: can the mind observe itself without the observer? Because the observer is the observed. The observer who says, 'I will bring order in disorder', that observer itself is a fragment of disorder, therefore it can never bring about order. So can the mind be aware of itself as a movement of disorder, not trying to correct it, not trying to justify it, not trying to shape it, just to observe? I said previously, to observe, sitting on the banks of a river and watch the waters go by. You see, then you see much more. But if you are in the middle of it swimming, you will see nothing!	一个非常有趣的问题：心智能够不带着观察者观察它自己吗？因为观察者就是被观察之物。说“我将为失序带来秩序”的观察者，那个观察者本身就是一个失序的碎片，因此它永远无法带来秩序。所以心智能否觉察到它自己是一种失序的运动而不试图纠正它，不试图为它辩护，不试图塑造它，而只是观察？我先前说过，去观察，坐在河岸上，观察河水流过。你去看，然后你会看到更多。但是如果你在水中游泳，你就什么也看不到！安：我永远不会忘记
47:04	A: I've never forgotten that it was when I stopped questioning, when I stood before that droplet of dew on the leaf, that everything changed totally, totally. And what you say is true. Once something like that happens, there isn't a regression from it.	正是当我停止提问，当我站在荷叶上的那颗露珠前时，一起都完全地、彻底地改变了。你所说的是真实的。一旦像那样的事情发生了，就不存在从它的倒退。克：先生，不是一旦，是…… 安：……永远。是的。
47:41	K: Sir, it is not once, it is... A: ...forever. Yes.	克：发生的不是一个偶然事件。
47:46	K: It's not an incident that took place. My life is not an incident, it is a movement.	我的生命不是一个偶然事件，它是一种运动。安：正是。克：在那种运动中我观察这种失序的运动。
47:54	A: Exactly.	因此，心智本身是失序的，
47:55	K: And in that movement I observe this movement of disorder. And therefore the mind itself is disorderly, and how can that disorderly, chaotic, contradictory, absurd little mind bring about order? It can't. Therefore a new factor is necessary. And the new factor is to observe, to perceive, to see without the perceiver.	而这个失序、混乱、矛盾、荒谬的渺小心智如何能够带来秩序？它不能。所以，一种新的因素是必要的。而这个新的因素就是去观察、去觉察、去看而不带有觉察者。安：去觉察而不带有觉察者。
48:35	A: To perceive without the perceiver. To perceive without the perceiver.	去觉察而不带有觉察者。克：因为觉察者就是被觉察之物。
48:42	K: Because the perceiver is the perceived.	安：是的。克：你一旦理解了这一点，
48:45	A: Yes.	接下来你会不带有觉察者地看到一切。
48:47	K: If you once grasp that, then you see everything without the perceiver. You don't bring in your personality, your ego, your selfishness. You say, 'Disorder is the factor which is in me, not out there'. The politicians are trying to bring about order when they are themselves so corrupt. You follow, sir? How can they bring order?	你不带入你的个性、你的自我和你的自私。你说，“失序是我内心的因素，并不在外面。” 政客们在试图建立秩序，而他们自身是如此腐败。你理解吗，先生？他们怎么能带来秩序呢？安：不可能。不可能。
49:17	A: It's impossible. It's impossible. It's one long series of palliatives.	那只是一长串治标不治本的权宜之计。克：这就是世界上正在发生的事情。
49:23	K: That's what's happening in the world. The politicians are ruling the world, from Moscow, from New Delhi, from Washington, wherever it is, it's the same pattern being repeated. Living a chaotic, corrupt life, you try to bring order in the world. It's childish. So that's why transformation of the mind is not your mind or my mind, it is the mind, the human mind.	政客们正统治着世界，从莫斯科、从新德里，从华盛顿到任何地方，正在重复同样的模式。过着一种混乱、腐败的生活，你却试图为世界带来秩序。这很幼稚。因此，这就是为什么转变的不是你的心智或我的心智，是心智本身，是人类的心智。安：或者心智甚至试图使自己变得有序。
50:04	A: Or the mind trying to order itself even. Not even that. K: Now how can it... It is like a blind man trying to bring about colour. He says, 'Well, that's grey', it has no meaning! So can the mind observe this disorder in itself without the observer, who has created disorder? Sir, this brings up a very simple thing. To look at a tree, at a woman, at a mountain, at a bird, or a sheet of water with the light on it, the beauty of it, to look without the seer. Because the moment the seer comes in, the observer comes in, he divides. And division is all right as long as it's descriptive. But when you are living - living - that division is destructive. I don't know if you...	连这都不是。克：那么它如何能那就像一个盲人试图带来色彩一样。他说，“哦，那是灰色，”这没有任何意义！那么心智能否观察它自己身上的这种失序而不带有制造了失序的观察者？先生，这引出了一个非常简单的事情。去看一棵树、一个女人、一座山、一只鸟或一大片波光粼粼的水面，它的美，去看而不带着看的人。因为看的人一进入，观察者一进入，他就会划分。只要划分是描述性的它就没什么问题。但当你在生活时——活着时—— 这种划分就是破坏性的。我不知道你是否安：我理解。闪过我脑子里的是
51:29	A: Yes, what was running through my mind was this continuous propaganda that we hear about the techniques that are available to still the mind. But that requires a stiller to do the stilling.	我们听到的这种持续的宣传：已经存在让头脑静止的技术。但那需要一个静止者去做这个静止的工作。克：不，我不会安：所以，那绝对——
51:48	K: No, I wouldn't...	我在使用你常用的词—— 克：幼稚，很幼稚。
51:50	A: And so that is absolutely... I'm using your words... K: Childish, childish.	安：绝对、完全
51:55	A: ...absolutely and totally out of any possibility of attaining.	不可能做到。克：然而，你看，那正是上师们正在做的。
52:00	K: But yet, you see, that's what the gurus are doing.	安：是的，是的，我知道。克：外来的上师们和当地的上师们都在做这种事情。
52:03	A: Yes, yes, I do understand.	他们其实是在摧毁人们。你理解吗，先生？
52:05	K: The imported gurus and the native gurus are doing this. They are really destroying people. You follow, sir? We'll talk about it when the occasion arises. What we are now concerned is: measurement, which is the whole movement of commercialism, consumerism, technology, is now the pattern of the world. Begun in the West, and made more and more perfect in the West, and that is spreading all over the world. Go to the smallest little town in India or anywhere, the same pattern being repeated. And the village you go, they are so miserable, unhappy, one-meal-a-day stuff. But it is still within that pattern. And the governments are trying to solve these problems separately, you follow? France by itself, Russia by itself. It's a human problem, therefore it has to be approached not with... with a Washington mind, or a London mind, or a Moscow mind, with a mind that is human, that says, 'Look, this is our problem, and, for God's sake, lets get together and solve it'. Which means care, which means accepting responsibility for every human being. So we come back: as we said, order comes only with the understanding of disorder. In that there is no superimposition, in that there is no conflict, in that there is no suppression. When you suppress, you react. You know all that business. So it is totally a different kind of movement, order. And that order is real virtue. Because without virtue there is no order. There's gangsterism. A: Oh, yes.	适当的时候我们会讨论这个问题的。我们现在关心的是：衡量，是这整个商业主义、消费主义和技术的运动，目前就是这个世界的模式。最初从西方开始，在西方变得越来越完善，然后蔓延到了全世界。去到印度或任何地方一个最小的城镇，都正在重复同样的模式。你去到任何乡村，他们是如此痛苦，不幸福，一天只吃一顿饱饭，但仍然处于那种模式中。而各国政府正在试图各自去解决这些问题，你理解吗？法国自己去解决，俄罗斯自己去解决。这是人类的问题，因此就不能用华盛顿的头脑、伦敦头脑或莫斯科头脑去解决，而是要用人类的头脑，这个头脑说，“请看，这是我们的问题，看在老天的份上，让我们走到一起解决它。” 这就意味着关怀，意味着对每一个人类成员负有责任。所以我们回过头来：如我们说过的，秩序只能伴随着对失序的理解而来。其中没有任何添加，其中没有任何冲突，其中没有任何压抑。当你压抑时，你就会反抗。你知道所有那些事情。所以，秩序是一种完全不同的运动。而这种秩序是真正的美德。因为没有美德就不存在秩序。就会存在为非作歹。安：噢，是的。克：以政治的方式、宗教的方式或任何其他的方式。
54:39	K: Politically or any other way, religiously. But without virtue, virtue being conduct, the flowering in goodness everyday. It is not a theory, sir, it actually takes place when you live that way.	但是没有美德——美德是每天在善中绽放的行为。先生，这不是理论，当你以那种方式生活时它就会实实在在地发生。安：你知道，
55:03	A: You know, the hexagram in the I Ching called 'conduct' is also translated 'treading'.	《易经》中被称为“履”的卦也被翻译成“行”。克：行走。安：行走。意思是运动。克：当然。
55:20	K: Treading. A: Treading. Meaning a movement. K: Of course.	安：一种运动。这是对通常的行为概念的
55:25	A: A movement. And that's a vastly different understanding of the usual notion of conduct. But I understand from what you have said that your use of the word 'conduct' as virtue, as order, is precisely oriented to act, movement. K: Yes, sir.	一种完全不同的理解。但从你所说的话中我理解你是把“行为”这个词作为美德、作为秩序来使用的，它准确地指向行动、运动。克：是的，先生。安：是的。
55:58	A: Yes.	克：你看，一个从失序出发去行动的人
56:02	K: You see, a man who acts out of disorder is creating more disorder. The politician, look at his life, sir, ambitious, greedy, seeking power, position.	是在制造更多的失序。先生，看看政客的生活，野心勃勃、贪婪、寻求权力和地位。安：为竞选奔走。克：竞选以及诸如此类的。
56:24	A: Running for election. K: Election, all the rest of it. And he is the man who is going to create order in the world. The tragedy of it, and we accept it! You follow?	而他是将要为世界创造秩序的人。真是一场悲剧，而我们接受了这种悲剧！你明白吗？安：是的，我们相信那是不可避免的。我们确实相信。
56:38	A: Yes, we believe it's inevitable. We do.	克：于是我们就没有责任了。
56:41	K: And therefore we are irresponsible.	安：因为是他做的，我没做。是的。
56:44	A: Because he did it and I didn't. Yes.	克：因为我们接受了我们生活中的失序。
56:51	K: Because we accept disorder in our life. I don't accept disorder in my life. I want to live an orderly life, which means I must understand disorder, and where there is order, the brain functions much better.	我不接受在我生活中的失序。我想要过一种有序的生活，这意味着我必须理解失序。而存在秩序的地方，大脑能更好地运行。安：这里有一个奇迹，不是吗？克：绝对有，这就是奇迹。
57:11	A: There is a miracle here, isn't there?	安：这里有一个奇迹。
57:13	K: Absolutely, that's the miracle.	我一旦领会了失序的运动
57:15	A: There is a miracle here. As soon as I grasp the movement of disorder...	克：心智领会了它。是的。安：是的。
57:23	K: The mind grasps it. Yes. A: Yes. behold, there's order. That's truly miraculous. Perhaps it's the one and only miracle.	瞧，就有了秩序。这真是神奇。也许这是唯一的奇迹。克：也有其他的奇迹，但安：我指的是，在那个词最深刻的意义上，
57:38	K: There are other miracles but...	它们必定全部与那种秩序有关，
57:40	A: I mean, in the deepest sense of the word, all of them would have to be related to that, or we wouldn't have any of them, is what I meant, the real heart, the real core.	否则我们就完全不会拥有它们，我说的是，真正的核心。克：先生，这就是为什么关系、交流、
57:49	K: That's why, sir, relationship, communication, responsibility, freedom, and this freedom from disorder, has a great sense of beauty in it. A life that is beautiful, a life that's really flowering in goodness. Unless we create, bring about such human beings, the world will go to pot.	责任、自由和从失序中解脱，蕴含着一种巨大的美。一种美好的生活，一种真正在善中绽放的生活。除非我们创造、带来这样的人类，否则世界就会走向毁灭。安：是的。克：这就是正在发生的事情。
58:23	A: Yes. K: This is what is happening. And I feel it's my responsibility! To me, I am passionate about it, it's my responsibility to see that when I talk to you, you understand it, you live it, you function, move in that way.	而我感到这是我的责任！对我来说，我对此充满热情，这是我的责任：当我与你交谈时，要确保你理解它，你把它活出来，你以那种方式生活、行动。安：我回到“关注”这件事情上来，
58:58	A: I come back to this attention thing, the enormous emphasis that you've made on staying totally attentive to this. I think I begin to understand something of the phenomenon of what happens, when a person begins to think that they are taking seriously what you are saying. - I didn't say, begins to take it seriously - they think they are beginning to. As a matter of fact, they begin to watch themselves lean in to it. And of course, nothing started yet. But something very strange happens in the mind, when this notion that I am leaning in. I start to get terribly afraid. I become terribly fearful of something. Next time could we discuss fear?	你非常强调要对这个事情保持全神贯注。我认为我正开始理解当一个人开始认为他们在认真对待你说的话时所发生的事情是一种什么现象。 ——我不是说已经开始认真对待了，而是—— 他们认为他们正在开始这么做。事实上，他们开始观察到自己正倾向于认真对待你说的话。当然，还没开始发生什么。但头脑中有件非常奇怪的事情发生了，当有了“我正在改变倾向”这个想法时，我开始变得非常害怕。我变得非常害怕某件事情。下次我们可以讨论恐惧吗？