克里希那穆提 - 恐惧的本质与彻底根除恐惧

Krishnamurti Subtitles

SD74CA6 - 恐惧的本质与彻底根除恐惧
与艾伦·W·安德森博士的第六次对话
美国，加利福尼亚，圣地亚哥
1974年2月20日

0:37	Krishnamurti in Dialogue with Dr. Allan W. Anderson	克里希那穆提与艾伦·W·安德森博士的对话
0:42	J. Krishnamurti was born in South India and educated in England. For the past 40 years he has been speaking in the United States, Europe, India, Australia, and other parts of the world. From the outset of his life's work he repudiated all connections with organised religions and ideologies and said that his only concern was to set man absolutely unconditionally free. He is the author of many books, among them The Awakening of Intelligence, The Urgency of Change, Freedom From the Known, and The Flight of the Eagle. This is one of a series of dialogues between Krishnamurti and Dr. Allan W. Anderson, who is professor of religious studies at San Diego State University where he teaches Indian and Chinese scriptures and the oracular tradition. Dr. Anderson, a published poet, received his degree from Columbia University and the Union Theological Seminary. He has been honoured with the distinguished Teaching Award from the California State University.	J·克里希那穆提出生在南印度，而后在英国接受教育。在过去的40年里，他曾在美国、欧洲、印度、澳大利亚以及世界其他地方发表演讲。在他毕生的事业刚刚开始的时候，他就断绝了与有组织的宗教和意识形态的所有关系，并说他唯一关心的是让人获得绝对的、无条件的自由。他著有多本著作，如《智慧的觉醒》、《转变的紧迫性》、《从已知中解脱》和《鹰的翱翔》等。这是克里希那穆提与艾伦·W·安德森博士的系列对话之一。安德森博士是圣地亚哥州立大学宗教研究学的教授，讲授印度和中国的经文和神谕传统文化。安德森博士，是一位有诗作出版的诗人，从哥伦比亚大学和纽约协和神学院获得了学位。他曾经获得加州州立大学授予的杰出教学奖。
1:51	A: Mr. Krishnamurti, if I recall correctly, I think we had begun to talk together last time just at the point where the question of fear arose, and I think we both, perhaps, could explore that together a little. K: Yes, I think so. I wonder how we can approach this problem, because it is a common problem in the world. Everyone, or I can say, almost everyone, is frightened of something. It may be the fear of death, fear of loneliness, fear of not being loved, fear of not becoming famous, successful, and also fear of not having physical security, and the fear of not having psychological security. There are so many multiple forms of fears. Now, to go into this problem really very deeply, can the mind, which includes the brain, be really, fundamentally, free of fear? Because fear, as I have observed, is a dreadful thing.	安：克里希那穆提先生，如果我没记错的话，我想我们上次一起刚要谈到恐惧的问题, 我想我们两个人可以一起探索一下这个问题。克：是的，我也这样认为。我想知道我们能如何着手这个问题，因为它是全世界一个普遍的问题。每个人，或者我可以说，几乎每个人，都有所畏惧。可能害怕死亡，害怕孤独，害怕没人爱，害怕不出名、不成功，也害怕没有身体上的安全，或者害怕没有心理上的安全感。存在那么多种恐惧的形式。那么，要真正非常深入地探究这个问题，心智 ——心智包括大脑—— 能够真正地、从根本上摆脱恐惧吗？因为恐惧，如我们观察到的，是一件可怕的事情。
3:45	A: Oh yes.	安：噢，是的。
3:46	K: It darkens the world, it destroys everything. And I don't think we can discuss fear, which is one of the principles in life, without also discussing - or going into - the pursuit of pleasure. The two sides of the same coin.	克：它使世界变得黑暗，它能摧毁一切。而我认为，如果我们不讨论 ——或探究——对快乐的追求，我们就无法讨论恐惧这一生活的主要问题。两者是同一个硬币的两面。
4:17	A: Fear and pleasure, two sides of the same coin. Yes.	安：恐惧和快乐，是同一硬币的两面。是的。
4:23	K: So we are going to first take fear. There is conscious as well as unconscious fears. Fears that are observable, that can be remedied, and fears that are deep rooted, deep in the recesses of one's mind.	克：那么我们首先来谈谈恐惧。存在意识到的和没意识到的恐惧。可以观察到的、能被克服的恐惧，以及根深蒂固的、深藏在一个人内心角落里的恐惧。
4:50	A: At the unconscious level. K: At the deeper levels. Now, we must be concerned with both, not only the obvious external fears, but also the deep seated undiscovered fears. The fears that have been handed down, traditional fears.	安：在无意识的层面上。克：在深层次上。我们必须这两者都关注，不仅关注明显的外在恐惧，而且也关注深藏的未被发现的恐惧，被传递下来的、传统的恐惧。
5:20	A: Being told what to fear. K: What to fear, and also fears that the mind itself has produced, has cultivated.	安：被告知要去害怕什么。克：要去害怕什么，以及心智本身制造、培养出来的恐惧。
5:29	A: In one's personal history.	安：在一个人的个人成长史中。
5:31	K: Personal and also in relation to others, fears of physical insecurity, losing a job, losing a position, losing something, and all the positive: not having something, and so on and on. So, if we are going to talk about this question, how should we, you and I, approach this? First take the outer, the obvious physical fears, and then from there move to the inner, and so cover the whole field, not just one little fear of an old lady, or an old man, or a young man, take the whole problem of fear. A: Good.	克：个人的以及与其他人相关的，对身体不安全的恐惧，害怕失业、失去某个职位、失去某个东西，和所有正面的恐惧：不拥有某个事物，等等，等等。那么，如果我们要讨论这个问题，我们，你和我，要如何着手？首先从外在着手，显而易见的身体上的恐惧，然后再转向内在，从而覆盖整个领域，不只是针对某个老人或某个年轻人的一个小恐惧，而是针对整个恐惧的问题。安：好。
6:39	K: Not just take one leaf of fear, or one branch of it, but the whole movement of fear.	克：不只是针对恐惧的一个叶片或一个枝条，而是针对恐惧的整个运动。
6:49	A: Yes. We are back to that word 'movement' again.	安：是的。我们又回到了“运动”这个词。
6:52	K: Movement. A: Good, good. The whole movement of fear.	克：运动。安：好，很好。恐惧的整个运动。
6:56	K: Now, outwardly, physically, it is becoming obvious that we must have security, physical security. That is, food, clothes, and shelter are absolutely necessary. Not only for the Americans, for the whole humanity.	克：那么，从外在，从身体上，很明显我们必须拥有安全，身体上的安全。即，食物、衣服和住所是绝对必要的。不仅对美国人如此，对整个人类都是如此。
7:20	A: Yes, of course. K: It's no good saying 'We are secure and to hell with the rest of the world'. The world is you! And you are the world. You can't isolate yourself and say, 'I am going to be secure' and not bother about the others.	安：是的，当然。克：“我们是安全的，让其他人见鬼去吧”这么说没有任何益处。世界就是你！而且你就是世界。你无法将自己隔绝起来，说， “我会安全的” 而不管其他人。
7:37	A: Secure myself against them.	安：通过防备他们使我自己安全。
7:39	K: It becomes a division, conflict, war, all that it produces. So that physical security is necessary for the brain. The brain can only function, as I have observed it in myself, in others - not that I am an expert on brain, or neurology and all that - but I have observed it. The brain can function only in complete security. Then it functions efficiently, healthily, not neurotically. And its actions won't be lopsided, disorderly. The brain needs security, as a child needs security. That security is denied, when we separate ourselves: the Americans, the Russians, the Indians, the Chinese. National division has destroyed that security because wars.	克：那就变成了分裂、冲突、战争，它所造成了那一切。所以，身体的安全对大脑来说是必要的。就像我在自己身上、在其他人身上观察到的那样 ——不是说，我是大脑或神经方面以及诸如此类的专家——而是说我观察过这一点：只有在完全安全的情况下大脑才能够运行。那时它高效、健康、不神经质地运行。它的行动不会是偏颇的、失序的。大脑需要安全，就像一个孩子需要安全一样。当我们把自己划分得四分五裂：美国人、俄罗斯人、印度人、中国人，安全就被否定了。国家的划分摧毁了这种安全，因为有战争。
8:52	A: Yes, that is a physical barrier. K: Physical fact. And yet we don't see that. Sovereign governments, with their armies, with their navies, and all the rest of it, are destroying security.	安：是的，这是一个实际的障碍。克：实际的事实。而我们没有看到这点。主权政府及其陆军、海军以及诸如此类的一切，正在摧毁安全。
9:08	A: In the name of providing it.	安：以提供安全的名义。
9:12	K: So, you see, what we are trying to get at is how stupid the mind is. It wants security - and it must have security - and yet it is doing everything to destroy that security.	克：所以，你瞧，我们正在试图理解的事情是心智是多么愚蠢。它想要安全 ——它必须拥有安全—— 而它正在做着所有摧毁那种安全的事情。
9:32	A: Oh yes, yes. I see that.	安：噢，是的。我明白这点。
9:34	K: So that's one factor. And the factor of security is in jobs. Either in a factory, in a business, or as a priest in his job. So occupation becomes very important.	克：所以这是一个因素。而另一个安全的因素在工作中。要么在工厂、在生意中，要么作为一个牧师在他的工作中。因此职业变得非常重要。
10:00	A: Indeed it does.	安：的确如此。
10:02	K: So, see what is involved. If I lose my job, I am frightened, and that job depends on the environment, on the production, business, factory - all that, commercialism, consumerism, and therefore competition with other countries. France isolating itself because it wants to... which is happening. So we need physical security and we are doing everything to destroy it. If all of us said, look, let's all get together, not with plans, not my plan, your plan, or the communist plan, or Mao plan, let's as human beings sit together and solve this problem. They could do it! Science has the means of feeding people. But they won't, because they are conditioned to function so as to destroy security which they are seeking. So that's one of the major factors in physical security. Then there is the fear of physical pain. Physical pain in the sense: one has had pain, let's say, last week. Mind is afraid that it should happen again. So there is that kind of fear.	克：所以，看看其中涉及到了什么。如果我失去了工作，我就会害怕，而那个工作取决于环境，取决于生产、交易和工厂——所有那些，取决于商业主义，消费主义，进而还有与其他国家的竞争。法国在隔离自己，因为它想要这就是正在发生的事情。所以，我们需要身体上的安全，而我们正在竭尽所能地摧毁它。如果我们都说，瞧，让我们都走到一起，不是借助蓝图，不是借助我的蓝图、你的蓝图共产主义蓝图或毛泽东的蓝图，让我们作为人类坐在一起解决这个问题。他们能做到的！科学有办法让所有人都吃上饭。但他们不去那样做，因为他们局限在职能之中以至于破坏掉了他们正在寻求的安全。因此这是在身体安全方面的一个重要因素。接下来还有对身体疼痛的恐惧。身体上的疼痛指的是：比方说，一个人上周有过疼痛。心智担心疼痛再次发生。因此，存在这种恐惧。
12:05	A: That's very interesting with respect to the phenomenon of physical pain, because what is remembered is not the neurological reaction, but the emotion that attends what occurred.	安：身体疼痛这个现象是非常有趣的，因为被记住的不是神经方面的反应，而是针对所发生事情的情绪。
12:17	K: Yes, that's it. So there is that fear.	克：是的，就是那样。所以存在那种恐惧。
12:20	A: Right, right.	安：对，对。
12:23	K: Then there is the fear of outward opinion, what people say, public opinion.	克：接下来还有对外界意见的恐惧。其他人说了什么，公众的舆论。
12:33	A: Reputation. K: Reputation. You see, sir, all this is born out of disorder. I don't know if I'm... A: Oh yes, yes.	安：名声。克：名声。你看，先生，这一切都是失序的产物。我不知道我是否…… 安：噢，是的，是的。
12:46	K: Which we discussed. A: Which we looked into previously.	克：……这些我们讨论过的。安：我们先前探究过了。
12:49	K: So, can the mind bring about security, physical security, which means food, clothes, and shelter for everybody? Not as a communist, as a capitalist, as a socialist, or as a Mao, but meet together as human beings to resolve this problem. It can be done! But nobody wants to do it, because they don't feel responsible for it. I don't know if you have been to India, if you have gone from town to town, to village as I have done, you see the appalling poverty, the degradation of poverty, the sense of hopelessness of it.	克：那么，心智能否为所有人带来安全，身体上的安全，即食物、衣服和住所？不是作为一个共产主义者、作为一个资本主义者、作为一个社会主义者或作为一个毛主义者，而是走到一起作为人类来解决这个问题。这是能够做到的！但是没有人愿意去做，因为他们没有感到对此负有责任。我不知道你是否到过印度，如果你像我一样去过很多乡镇和村庄，你会看到可怕的贫困，贫困造成的退化和令人绝望的感觉。
13:52	A: Yes, I have been to India, and it was the first time in my life that I sensed poverty, not simply as a privation, but it seemed to have a positive character about it. It was so stark. K: I know, sir. Personally, we have been through all that. So, physical survival is only possible when human beings get together. Not as communists, socialists, all the rest, as human beings who say, look, this is our problem, for God's sake, let's solve it. But they won't, because they are burdened with problems, with planning how to solve that! I don't know if I am... A: Yes, yes, you are.	安：是的，我去过印度。那是我此生第一次感受到贫穷，那不只是一种缺乏，而是它好像有某种积极的特性。如此直截了当。克：我知道，先生。我们都亲自经历过那一切。那么，只有当人类团结起来时，身体的存活才是可能的。不是作为共产主义者、社会主义者以及诸如此类的身份团结起来，而是作为人类，说，瞧，这是我们的问题，看在老天的份上，让我们解决它。但他们不愿意这样做，因为他们满脑子都是问题，而且装满了如何解决的方案！我不知道我是否…… 安：是的，你表达清楚了。
14:46	K: You have your plan, I have my plan, he has his plan, so plans becomes most important, most important rather than the starvation. And we fight each other. And common sense, affection, care, love can change all this. Sir, I won't go into that. Then the fear of public opinion. Do you understand, sir? What my neighbour will say.	克：你有你的方案，我有我的方案，他有他的方案，所以，方案变得至关重要，甚至比饥饿更重要。于是我们就打起来了。而常识、慈悲、关怀和爱能改变这一切。先生，我就不深入讲这一点了。然后还有对公众舆论的恐惧。你理解吗，先生？我的邻居会说什么。
15:21	A: My image, the national image, yes.	安：我的形象，国家的形象，是的。
15:25	K: And I depend on my neighbour.	克：而我依靠我的邻居。
15:30	A: Oh yes, necessarily.	安：噢是的，必然地。
15:32	K: If I am a Catholic living in Italy, I have to depend on my neighbour, because I'll lose my job if I am a Protestant there. So I accept it. I go and salute the pope, or whatever, it has no meaning. So I am afraid of public opinion. See what a human mind has reduced itself to. I don't say, 'To blazes with public opinion because that's stupid, they are conditioned, they are frightened as much as I am'. So there is that fear. And there is the fear, physical fear of death, which is an immense fear. That fear one has to tackle differently when we come to it, when we talk about death and all that. A: Yes.	克：如果我是生活在意大利的天主教徒，我必须依靠我的邻居，因为在那里如果我是个新教徒，我就会失业。因此我接受了天主教。我去向教皇致敬，等等，那毫无意义。所以，我害怕公众舆论。看看人类的心智将自身降低到了什么程度。我没有说， “公众舆论见鬼去吧，因为那很愚蠢，他们受到了制约，他们像我一样害怕。” 因此，存在这种恐惧。还有对身体死亡的恐惧，那是一种巨大的恐惧。我们必须以不同的方式来处理这种恐惧，当我们谈到它的时候，当我们谈论死亡及相关的一切时。安：是的。
16:38	K: So there is the outward form of fear: fear of darkness, fear of public opinion, fear of losing a job, fear of... - survival, not being able to survive. Sir, I have lived with people with one meal a day, and that's not enough even. I have walked behind a woman with a girl, and the girl said - in India - 'Mother, I'm hungry'. And the mother says, 'You have already eaten for the day'. You understand, sir? A: Yes.	克：因此，存在外在形式的恐惧：害怕黑暗，害怕公众舆论，害怕失去工作，害怕生存不下去。先生，我曾与一日一餐的人一起生活过，那实际上根本就不够。我曾经走在一个带着一个女孩的女人身后，那个女孩说——那是在印度—— “母亲，我饿”。而母亲说， “今天的饭你已经吃了”。你明白吗，先生？安：是的。克：因此，存在所有这些身体上的恐惧和痛苦，
17:30	K: So there is all that, that physical fears, pain, and the fear of recurring pain, and all that. And the other fears are much more complicated, fears of dependency, inwardly: I depend on my wife, I depend on my guru, I depend on the priest, I depend on... so many dependance. And I am afraid to lose them, to be left alone.	以及对痛苦卷土重来的恐惧以及诸如此类的一切。而其他的恐惧则更加复杂，内心依赖的恐惧：我依赖我的妻子我依赖我的上师，我依赖牧师，我依赖那么多的依赖。我害怕失去他们，变得孑然一身。安：受到排斥。克：受到排斥。
18:06	A: To be rejected. K: To be rejected. If that woman turns away from me, I'm lost. I get angry, brutal, violent, jealous, because I have depended on her. So dependency is one of the factors of fear. And inwardly I am afraid. I am afraid of loneliness. The other day I saw on the television a woman saying, 'The only fear I have in life is my loneliness'. And therefore, being afraid of loneliness, I do all kinds of neurotic activities. Being lonely, I attach myself to you, or to a belief, or to a saviour, to a guru. And I protect the guru, the saviour, the belief, and that soon becomes neurotic.	如果那个女人背弃我，我就迷失了。我变得愤怒、野蛮、暴力、妒忌，因为我一直依赖她。因此，依赖是恐惧的因素之一。因而我内心恐惧。我害怕孤独。前几天我在电视上看到一个女人说，“我生活中唯一的恐惧是我的孤独”。因此，由于害怕孤独，我就做出各种各样神经质的行为。因为孤独，我就让自己依附于你，或依附于某种信仰，或依附于某个救世主、某个上师。并且我保护那个上师、救世主和信仰，这种行动很快就会变得神经质。安：我用这种新的形象来填补空洞。
19:26	A: I fill up the hole with this new image.	克：用这种垃圾。安：是的。
19:29	K: With this rubbish. A: Yes.	克：存在这种恐惧。
19:33	K: There is that fear. Then there is the fear of not being able to arrive, succeed, succeed in this world of disorder, and succeed in the so-called spiritual world. That's what they are all doing now.	接下来还有无法达到和成功的恐惧，无法在这个混乱的世界上取得成功，以及在所谓的灵性世界中取得成功。这就是他们如今都在做的事情。安：灵性成就。克：成就，
19:54	A: Spiritual achievement. K: Achievement, which they call enlightenment.	他们称之为开悟。安：扩张意识。
19:59	A: Expanding consciousness. I know what you mean. It's very interesting that you just got through describing fear of being left behind. Now we are fearing that we'll never arrive. Please, go on. K: Same thing. Then there is the fear of not being, which translates itself in identification with. I must identify myself.	我明白你的意思。你刚才对“害怕落后”这种恐惧的描述，非常有趣。而我们害怕我们永远都不会成功。请继续。克：那是同样的事情。接下来还有对“不能成为什么”的恐惧，这表现为要与某些事物相认同。我必须确定我自己的身份。安：为了成为什么。克：成为什么。
20:35	A: In order to be. K: To be. And if I identify myself with my country, I say to myself, 'That's too stupid'. Then I say, 'I must identify myself with God' which I have invented. God has not made man in his image, man has made God in his image. You follow this? A: Oh, I follow you.	而如果我和自己的国家相认同，我会对自己说，“那太愚蠢了”。然后我说，“我必须和上帝相认同”，而上帝是我发明出来的。上帝没有按他的形象造人，是人按照他的形象制造了上帝。你理解这一点吗？安：噢，我理解你说的。克：因此，不能成为什么，没有成就，没有达到，
21:07	K: So, not being, not achieving, not arriving, brings about tremendous sense of uncertainty, tremendous sense of not being able to fulfil, not being able to be with, and the cry, 'I must be myself'.	带来了巨大的不确定感，不能够实现、不能够与什么同在的强烈感觉，以及那种呼喊，“我必须做我自己”。安：做我自己的事情。克：我自己的事情。
21:34	A: Do my own thing. K: My own thing. Which is rubbish! So there are all these fears, both logical fears, irrational fears, neurotic fears, and fears of survival, physical survival. So now, how do you deal with all these fears and many more fears, which we can't go into, - which we will presently - how do you deal with them all? One by one?	那都是些垃圾！因此，存在所有这些恐惧，既有符合逻辑的恐惧、不合理的恐惧、神经质的恐惧，也有关于生存，身体存活的恐惧。那么，你如何处理所有这些恐惧以及更多我们无法探讨的恐惧 ——很快我们就会探讨—— 你如何处理它们的全部？一个一个地来吗？安：你只会陷入支离破碎的悲惨循环中，
22:16	A: You would just be in the mournful round of fragmentation, if you did that.	如果你那样做的话。克：而且还有隐藏的恐惧，
22:20	K: And also there are the hidden fears, which are much more active.	这些恐惧要活跃得多。安：从下往上不断地冒出来。
22:28	A: The continual bubbling up from below.	克：冒出来。当我不注意时，它们就占了上风。
22:30	K: Bubbling up. When I'm not conscious, they take over.	安：说的对。
22:33	A: That's right.	克：那么，首先我要如何去处理
22:37	K: So, how am I to deal first, with the obvious fears which we have described? Shall I deal it one by one, first secure myself? You follow? A: Yes.	我们描述过的明显的恐惧？我应该一个一个地处理，首先让自己安全吗？你明白吗？安：是的。克：或者拿孤独开刀然后解决它，
22:55	K: Or take loneliness and tackle that, come to grips with it, go beyond it, and so on. Or is there a way of dealing with fear, not with the branches of it, but with the root of it? Because if I take each leaf, each branch, it will take all my lifetime. And if I begin to analyse my fears, - analyse - then that very analysis becomes a paralysis.	抓住它，超越它，等等。或者，是不是存在一种处理恐惧的方式，不是处理它的枝节，而是处理它的根本？因为，如果我处理每一个叶片、每一个枝条的话，那将会花费我毕生的时间。而如果我开始分析我的恐惧——分析—— 那么，那种分析本身就变成了一种瘫痪无力。安：然后我甚至害怕
23:33	A: And then I even fear that I might not have analysed correctly.	我可能没有以正确的方式分析。克：正确的方式。我一次又一次地被困住。
23:36	K: Correctly. And I am caught, over and over again. So how shall I deal with this problem, as a whole, not just parts of it, fragments of it?	那么，我要怎样处理这个问题，作为一个整体，而不只是处理它的部分、它的碎片？安：难道没有一种关于该如何处理它的提示吗？
23:51	A: Isn't there a hint about how it might be dealt with. Of course, when I say hint here, I mean terribly, terribly slight. I don't think I would call it a pointer, but fear, no matter how many varieties one imagines he knows, fear does have a common taste, you might say, there is something there that...	当然，我在这里说的提示，意思是极其、极其轻微的提示。我认为我不会称它为某种指示，但恐惧，无论一个人想象他知道有多少种恐惧，恐惧的确有一种共同的滋味，你会说，存在某种东西克：是的，先生，但我要拿它怎么办？
24:24	K: Yes, sir, but what shall I do with it?	安：哦，当然，我非常理解。
24:26	A: Oh yes, of course, I quite understand. But it interested me, while you were speaking, to observe that already when we think of many fears, we haven't even paid attention to how we fear, when we fear. Yes, I was interested to have that flash, because it seems to be altogether consonant with what you are talking about. And I said to myself, now, in our conversations we've been pointing to movement. The movement of fear is one. K: Yes, a tremendous one.	但你刚才说话的时候，引起我兴趣的是看到当我们已经考虑了很多恐惧，我们甚至都没有注意当我们恐惧时，我们是如何恐惧的。是的，那个闪念让我产生了兴趣，因为它好像与你所讲的是完全一致的。并且我对自己说，在我们现在的谈话中，我们一直在指向运动。恐惧的运动是一个整体。克：一个非常巨大的整体。安：而且它是一个统一的破坏性的领域。
25:05	A: And it is a unified field of destruction.	克：它是每一个人共有的因素。
25:09	K: It is the common factor of every human being.	安：这整个领域，是的，正是，正是。
25:12	A: The whole field, yes, exactly, exactly.	克：无论一个人生活在莫斯科还是印度，
25:15	K: Whether a man lives in Moscow, or India, or in any place, it is the common thing of this fear, and how shall he deal with it? Because unless the mind is free of fear, really, not verbally or ideologically, absolutely be free of fear. And it is possible to be free completely of fear, and I'm saying this not as a theory, but I know it, I've gone into it.	或者在任何地方，都有恐惧这件共同的事情，那么他该如何处理它？因为除非心智摆脱了恐惧，不是在言语上或思想上，而是真正地绝对地摆脱恐惧。而完全地摆脱恐惧是可能的，我说这句话不是作为理论，而是我确实知道，我深入探究过它。安：确实。克：确实。
26:00	A: Actual. K: Actual. Now, how shall I deal with this? So I ask myself, what is fear? Not the objects of fear or the expressions of fear.	那么，我要如何处理这种恐惧？因此，我问自己，什么是恐惧？不是恐惧的对象或恐惧的表现是什么。安：不是，也不是对危险即刻的反应。
26:15	A: No, or the instant reaction to danger, no.	克：什么是恐惧？
26:18	K: What is fear?	安：在某种程度上，它是我头脑中的一种想法。
26:21	A: It's an idea in my mind, in part.	克：不。什么是恐惧，先生？
26:23	K: No. What is fear, sir?	安：我们是否说过，它是一种持久的
26:32	A: If we have said, it's an abiding...	克：不，不。在言语的背后，在描述、
26:37	K: No, no. Behind the words, behind the descriptions, the explanations, the way out and the way in, and all the rest of it, what is fear? How does it come?	解释、恐惧来去的路径以及诸如此类的背后，什么是恐惧？它是如何产生的？安：如果到目前为止在我们谈话的过程中
26:54	A: If I have followed you through our conversations up until now, I'd be inclined to say that it is another expression of the observer's disordered relation to the observed. K: What does that mean? What is the observer... What you say... Look, the problem is this - I am only making the problem clearer... We have, man has tried to lop off, or prune, one fear after the other, through analysis, through escape, through identifying himself with something which he calls courage. Or saying, well, I don't care, I rationalise my fears and remain in a state of rationalising, intellectual, verbal explanation. But the thing is boiling. So what shall I do? What is fear? Unless I find this out - not because you tell me - unless I find it out for myself, as I find from myself that I am hungry, - nobody has to tell me I am hungry! - I have to find this out.	我理解了你说的话，我会倾向于说，它是观察者与被观察之物的失序关系的另一种表达。克：你说的是什么意思？观察者是什么……你怎么说瞧，问题是这样的 ——我只是想澄清问题我们曾，人类曾试图砍掉或修剪一个又一个恐惧，通过分析，通过逃避，通过让自己认同某个他称为勇气的事物。或者嘴上说，好吧，我不在乎，我将我的恐惧合理化并且保持在合理化、智力和言语解释的状态。但那个东西在内心沸腾着。那么，我该怎么办？什么是恐惧？除非我找到这个问题的答案——不是因为你告诉我—— 除非我亲自发现，就像我从自己身上发现我饿了一样， ——任何人都不必告诉我我饿了！—— 我必须把这件事搞清楚。安：是的，按照你刚才说的，
28:33	A: Yes, now there is a difference here in terms of what you have just said. And, in so saying, pointing to something, and my earlier reply, when you asked me what is fear, I did the usual academic thing: 'If I have followed you up until now, then it seems clear that..'. Whereas let's forget about the following, let's zero in on it right now, and then I must say, not 'I might say', but I must say, that I can't tell anybody else what fear is, with respect to what it is, I am going to discover in me as such. And all my continual descriptions about it are simply a deflection from my immediate issue which is here. K: Yes. So, I'm not escaping. A: No.	这里存在一个区别。而在这样说、指向某个事物以及我早先的回答中，当你问我什么是恐惧，我是用学术上通常的做法来回答的： “如果到目前为止我理解了你说的话，那么好像很清楚……" 然而让我们忘掉之前的理解，让我们立刻归零，然后我必须得说， ——不是“我可能会说”，而是我必须说—— 我无法告诉其他人恐惧是什么，至于它本来是什么，我要从自己身上去发现。而我对它不断进行的各种描述都只是在偏离此刻最直接的问题。克：是的。因此，我不逃避。安：对。克：我不合理化。
29:43	K: I'm not rationalising. I am not analysing, because analysis is real paralysis. A: Yes, indeed.	我不分析，因为分析实际上是无力的。安：是的，确实是。克：当你面临像这样的一个问题时，
29:55	K: When you are confronted with a problem like this, merely spinning or analysing, and the fear of not being able to analyse perfectly, and therefore go to a professional, who needs also an analysis. So I'm caught. So I will not analyse, because I see the absurdity of it. You follow, sir? A: Yes, I do.	仅仅编织理论或者分析，还有因为害怕不能完善地分析进而去找某个专业人员，但他也需要分析。所以我被困住了。因此我不再分析，因为我看到了它的荒谬。你理解吗，先生？安：是的，我理解。克：我不会逃跑。
30:21	K: I won't run.	安：不后退。克：后退。安：逃走。
30:23	A: No backing off. K: Backing off. A: Flight.	克：没有解释，没有合理化，没有分析。
30:26	K: No explanations, no rationalisation, no analysis. I am faced with this thing. And what is fear? Wait a minute, wait, wait, wait. Leave that. Then there are the unconscious fears of which I don't know. They express themselves occasionally, when I am alert, when I see the thing coming out of me.	我面对着这件事情。那么什么是恐惧？等一下，等一下，等一下。先放下那个。接下来还有无意识的恐惧，我不知道的恐惧。它们偶尔表达一下自己，当我警觉的时候，当我看到有东西从我内心浮现出来时。安：当我警觉的时候。克：警觉。当我观察的时候。
31:04	A: When I am alert. K: Alert. When I am watching. Or when I'm looking at something this comes up, uninvited. Now, it is important for the mind to be completely free of fear. It's essential, as food is essential. It's essential for the mind to be free of fear. So I see outwardly what we have discussed. Now I say, what is this, what are the hidden fears; can I consciously invite them come to the surface? You follow? A: Yes, I do.	或者，当我在看某个事物时，这种东西就冒了出来，不期而至。而心智完全摆脱恐惧是一件非常重要的事情。这是必需的，就像食物是必需的一样。心智必须摆脱恐惧。所以我从外在理解了我们所讨论的。现在我说，这是什么，隐藏的恐惧是什么；我能否有意识地让它们显露出来？你理解吗？安：是的，我理解。克：还是说，意识无法触及那些？
31:54	K: Or the conscious cannot touch that? You follow? A: Yes, yes, I do, yes.	你理解吗？安：是的，我理解，是的。克：意识只能够处理它知道的事物。
32:04	K: Conscious can only deal with the things it knows. But it cannot observe the things it doesn't know.	但它无法观察它不知道的事物。安：或者无法接近。
32:17	A: Or have access to.	克：那么，我该怎么办？做梦？
32:19	K: So, what am I to do? Dreams? Dreams are merely continuation of what I have lived during the day, they continue in a different form - we won't go into that for the moment. So how is all that to be awakened and exposed? The racial fears, the fears that society has taught me, the fears that the family has imposed, the neighbour - you know, all those crawling, ugly, brutal things that are hidden - how shall they all come up naturally and be exposed so that the mind sees them completely? You understand? A: Yes, I do. I was just thinking about what we are doing in relation to what you are saying. Here we are, in a university situation, where hardly any listening goes on at all, if any. Why? Well, if we were to relate to each other in terms of my sitting back here saying to myself every time you made a statement, 'what do I have to say back', even if my reaction were benign and I say to myself as a professor, 'I'd say, now, that's a very interesting concept'. Perhaps we could clear that up a little bit, you know. That nonsense, nonsense in terms of what is immediate here. That's what I mean. K: I understand.	梦只是我白天生活的继续，它们以另一种方式继续 ——我们暂时不探讨它。因此，所有那些要如何被唤醒和暴露出来？种族的恐惧，社会教给我们的恐惧，家庭、邻居强加的恐惧 ——你知道，所有那些隐藏着的遍布的、丑陋的和野蛮的事情—— 它们要如何全部自然地暴露出来以便心智能够完全看到它们？你理解吗？安：是的，我理解。我刚才在想就你正在说的内容而言我们正在做什么。我们在这里，在一个大学的环境中，而这里几乎完全没有任何聆听，如果还有一丁点儿的话。为什么？你瞧，我们之间的相互关系是否指的是当你每次做一个陈述时我放松地坐着自言自语， “我必须怎样回答”，即使我的反应是和蔼的，我作为一个教授自言自语， “现在我应该说，这是一个非常有趣的概念”。你知道，也许我们能把这一点澄清一下。那种无稽之谈，就“在这里最紧迫的是什么”而言的无稽之谈。我说的是这个意思。克：我理解。安：我的意思不是在黑板上演示什么。
34:13	A: I don't mean demonstrating something on the board. We should never have begun to be together, never started, and yet we might have given ourselves the idea that we were trying very hard to be sincere. Yes, I understand. K: I know, I know.	我们应该从来都没有开始在一起过，从来没有开始过，然而我们却可能给了自己那种想法：我们在非常努力地变得真诚。是的，我了解。克：我知道，我知道。安：但恐惧也是以这个为基础的，
34:35	A: But fear is at the base of that too, because the professor is thinking to himself...	因为教授在考虑他自己克：他的职位，他的
34:39	K: His position, his...	安：他的声望岌岌可危。
34:40	A: He's got his reputation at stake here. He better not keep quiet too long, because someone might get the idea that either he doesn't understand a thing that is going on or he doesn't have anything to contribute to what's going on. All of which has nothing to do with anything. Please, go on. K: Absolutely. Look, sir, what I have found: the conscious mind, conscious thought cannot invite and expose the hidden fears. It cannot analyse it, because analysis, we said, is inaction, and there is no escape, I shan't run off to a church, or Jesus, or Buddha, or somebody, or identify myself with some other thing. I have pushed all those aside, because I've understood their use, their futility. So I am left with this. This is my baby. So, what shall I do? Some action has to take place. I can't just say, 'Well, I've pushed all that aside, I'll just sit'. Now, just see what happens, sir, because I've pushed all this aside, through observation, not through resistance, not through violence, because I have negated all those - escape, analysis, running off to something and all the rest of all that - I have energy, haven't I? The mind has energy now.	他最好不要长时间沉默，因为有人可能会觉得要么他不了解正在发生的所有事情，要么他对正在发生的事情没有任何贡献。而这一切与任何事情都毫无关系。请继续。克：绝对是这样。请看，先生，我所发现的：有意识的心智，有意识的思想无法让隐藏的恐惧暴露出来。它不能分析它，因为我们说过，分析不是行动，因而没有了逃避，我不会逃向教堂，或耶稣，或佛陀，或某个人，或将自己认同于其他某个事物。我摒弃了那一切，因为我理解了它们的用处、它们的徒劳，因此就剩下我和这个东西了。这是我的宝贝。那么，我该怎么办？某种行动必须发生。我不能只是说，“好吧，我已经摒弃了那一切，坐着就行了。” 现在，先生，就来看看会发生什么，因为我已经摒弃了那一切，通过观察，而不是通过抵制，不是通过暴力，因为我已经否定了那一切——逃避，分析，逃向某个事物以及诸如此类的—— 我拥有了能量，不是吗？现在心智拥有了能量。安：是的，它现在有了能量。是的，它充满了能量。
36:38	A: Now it has, yes. Yes, it floods up.	克：因为我已经摒弃了
36:41	K: Because I have pushed away all the things that are dissipating energy.	所有耗费能量的事情。安：能量泄漏。
36:47	A: Energy leaks.	克：所以现在我拥有了能量。
36:49	K: Therefore I have now this thing. I am confronted with that, confronted with fear. Now, what can I do? Listen to this, sir, what can I do? I can't do anything, because it is I who have created the fear, public opinion... A: Yes, yes, yes.	我面对着那种东西，面对着恐惧。那么，我能做什么？先生，听听这个问题，我能做什么？我无法做任何事情，因为正是我制造了恐惧，公众舆论…… 安：是的，是的，是的。克：对吧？因此我无法对恐惧做任何事情。
37:17	K: Right? So I cannot do a thing about fear.	安：确实如此。
37:24	A: Precisely.	克：但是有了能量，被聚集起来的能量，
37:26	K: But there is the energy, which has been gathered, which has come into being when all dissipation of energy has ended. There's energy.	当所有能量耗费都停止时，这种能量就产生了。有了能量。安：是的，正是，美德显现了出来。
37:42	A: Yes. Exactly, virtue - right, right - manifested.	克：能量。
37:48	K: Energy. Now, what happens? This is not some hocus-pocus, some kind of mystical experience. There is actual fear, and I have tremendous energy, which has come because there is no dissipation of energy. So what takes place? So, wait, wait, wait.	此时，会发生什么？这不是某种戏法表演，某种神秘的经验。存在真实的恐惧，而我拥有了巨大的能量，因为没有能量的浪费这种能量就出现了。那么会发生什么？请等一下，等一下。安：噢，我在等着，我在等着。
38:22	A: Oh, I'm waiting, I'm waiting. There was something going through my mind.	有些事情闪过了我的脑子。克：发生了什么？
38:26	K: What takes place? So, what has created fear? What has brought it about? Because if I have the energy - you follow, sir? - to put that question and find the answer for that question, I've got energy now. I don't know... A: Yes, yes, yes.	那么，是什么制造了恐惧？是什么使它产生出来的？因为，如果我拥有能量——你明白吗，先生？—— 去提出那个问题并找到问题的答案，现在我拥有了能量。我不知道…… 安：是的，表达清楚了。克：那么，是什么让它产生的？
38:58	K: So, what has brought it about? You, my neighbour, my country, my culture?	你，我的邻居，我的国家，我的文化？安：我自己。
39:07	A: Myself.	克：什么使它产生出来？
39:09	K: What has brought it about?	安：是我。克：我是谁？
39:12	A: I've done it. K: Who is I?	安：我说的“我”不是指我之外的破碎的观察者。
39:17	A: I don't mean 'I' as the fragmented observer off from me. It is this... I am thinking what you said earlier about the mind as disordered, which requires to empty itself of the disorder. Does it require another mind to do it?	而是这种…… 我在想你先前关于失序的心智所说的话，它需要清空自身的失序。需要另外一种心智去做这个事情吗？克：不，我是在问，是什么将这种恐惧带进了我的内心，
39:42	K: No, I'm asking, what has brought this fear into me, into my consciousness? I won't use that word, because we'll have to go into that in a different way. What has brought this fear? And I won't leave it till I find it. You understand, sir? Because I've got the energy to do it. I don't depend on anybody, on any book, on any philosopher - nobody!	带进了我的意识？我不会用那个词，因为我们必须以不同的方式探究这个问题。是什么带来了这种恐惧？我不会放弃直到我找到答案。你明白吗，先生？因为我拥有了找到答案的能量。我不依靠任何人、任何书本、任何哲学家——不依赖任何人！安：是不是
40:15	A: Would it be the case that once that energy begins to flood, that the question itself disappears?	一旦那种能量开始涌出问题本身就消失了？克：我就要开始发现答案了。安：好。
40:25	K: And I'll begin to find the answer. A: Yes.	克：我不提出问题。安：不提出问题。
40:28	K: I don't put the question. A: No.	克：但我发现了答案。安：对，对。
40:30	K: But I find the answer. A: Right, right.	克：那么，好，答案是什么？
40:32	K: Now, right. What is the answer?	安：答案不能是学术性的
40:42	A: The answer couldn't be academic, a description of something.	对某个事物的描述。克：不，不，不是。安：存在中有某种变化已经发生了。
40:49	K: No, no, no.	克：对于恐惧这个事实来说
40:50	A: A change has occurred in the being.	答案是什么？——恐惧一直被维持着，
40:53	K: What is the answer to this fact of fear, which has been sustained, which has been nourished, which has carried on from generation to generation? Can the mind observe this fear, the movement of it... A: The movement of it.	一直被滋养着，而且延续了一代又一代。心智能否观察这种恐惧，它的运动……？安：它的运动。克：……不只是恐惧的一个碎片。
41:31	K: ...not just a piece of fear.	安：或恐惧的某种继续。
41:36	A: Or a succession of fears.	克：而是这种恐惧的运动。安：恐惧本身的运动。
41:38	K: But the movement of this.	克：观察它而不带有
41:39	A: The movement of fear itself.	制造了观察者的思想。
41:41	K: Observe it without the thought that has created the observer. I don't know... A: Oh yes, yes.	我不知道…… 安：是的，你表达清楚了。克：所以，能不能观察这个事实，
41:54	K: So, can there be observation of this fact, which I've called fear, because I have recognised it, the mind has recognised it, because it has had fear before. So through recognition and association it says, 'This is fear'.	我称为恐惧的这个事实，因为我已经认出了它，心智已经认出了它，因为它曾经有过恐惧。因此通过识别和联想它说，“这是恐惧。” 安：是的，那从来没有停止过。
42:22	A: Yes, that never stops.	克：那么，心智能否观察
42:24	K: So, can the mind observe without the observer - who is the thinker - observe this fact only? That means the observer, which is thought, the observer as thought has produced this. I don't know... So thought has produced this. Right? I am afraid of my neighbour, what he says, because I want to be respectable. That is the product of the thought. Thought has divided the world into America, Russia, India, China, and all the rest of it, and that destroys security. That is the result of thought. I am lonely and therefore I act neurotically, which is also the fact of thought. So I see very clearly that thought is responsible for that. Right? Right, sir? So, what will happen with thought? Thought is responsible for this. It has nourished it, has sustained it, it has encouraged it, it has done everything to sustain it. I am afraid of the pain that I had yesterday happening again tomorrow. Which is the movement of thought. So can thought, which can only function within the field of knowledge, - that's its ground - and fear is something new each time. Fear isn't old. A: No, no.	而不带有观察者——它就是思想者—— 只是观察这个事实？这意味着观察者，也就是思想，作为思想的观察者制造了这种恐惧。我不知道所以是思想制造了这种恐惧。对吗？我害怕我的邻居，他说的话，因为我想要受人尊敬。这是思想的产物。思想将世界分成了美国、俄罗斯、印度、中国以及诸如此类的，而这种做法破坏了安全。这是思想的结果。我孤独因而我的行动神经质，这也是思想的事实。所以我清楚地看到思想对这些负有责任。对吧？对吗，先生？那么，对思想来说将会发生什么事情？思想对这些负有责任。思想滋养了它们，维持了它们，助长了它们，竭尽所能地维持它们。我害怕我昨天遭受的疼痛明天会再发生。这是思想的运动。那么，思想只能在知识的领域内运行， ——那是它的领地—— 而恐惧每次都是新东西。恐惧不是旧的。安：对，不是。克：当我认出它时它就变成了旧的。
44:48	K: It is made old when I recognise it.	安：是的，是的。克：但是，在识别的过程中
44:55	A: Yes, yes.	——识别的过程就是词语等等的联想——
44:56	K: But when the process of recognition, which is the association of words, and so on, can the mind observe that without the interference of thought? If it does, fear is not. A: Right, right. The thing that was hitting me while I was sitting here intently, the thing that was hitting me was that the moment that occurs the thought and the fear immediately disappear.	心智能够观察这个过程而没有思想的干扰吗？如果它这样做，恐惧就不存在了。安：对，对。刚才我突然想到，当我专心坐在这里时，我突然想到的事情是那件事情发生的那一刻思想和恐惧就立刻消失了。克：所以，此时恐惧就能够被完全消除。
45:33	K: So, fear then can be put away completely. If I was living as a human being in Russia and they threaten me to be put into prison, probably I would be afraid. It is natural self-preservation. A: Of course.	如果我作为一个人生活在俄罗斯而他们威胁我要把我投进监狱，可能我会害怕。那是自然的自我保护。安：当然。克：那是一种自然的恐惧，
46:00	K: That's a natural fear, like a bus coming rushing towards you, you step aside, you run away from a dangerous animal, that's a natural self-protective reaction. But that's not fear. It's a response of intelligence operating, saying, for God's sake, move away from the rushing bus. But the other factors are factors of thought.	就像一辆公交车向你冲过来，你会躲到一边，你会逃离一个危险的动物，那是自然的自我保护反应。但那不是恐惧。那是智慧在起作用时的反应，比方说，看在老天的份上，躲开冲过来的汽车。但其他的因素是思想的因素。安：正是。
46:34	A: Exactly.	克：那么，思想能够理解它自己，知道自己的位置，
46:38	K: So, can thought understand itself, and know its place, and not project itself? Not control, which is an abomination. You can't... if you control thought, who is the controller? Another fragment of thought. A: Another thought.	却不投射它自身吗？不是控制，控制是一种令人憎恶的东西。你无法……如果你控制思想，谁是控制者？思想的另一个碎片而已。安：另一个想法。克：那是一个循环，一种你和自己玩的恶性循环的游戏。
47:06	K: It is a circle, a vicious game you are playing with yourself. So can the mind observe without a movement of thought? It will only do that when you have understood the whole movement of fear. Understood that, not analysed, looking at it. It is a living thing, therefore you have to look at it. It is only a dead thing you can dissect and analyse, kick it around. But a living thing you have to watch.	因此，心智能够观察而不带有任何思想活动吗？只有当你理解了恐惧的整个运动时它才能那样做。理解了那种运动，不是分析了，而是看着它。它是一种活着的东西，因此你必须观察它。只有死了的东西你才能解剖和分析，粗暴地对待它。而对一个活着的事物你必须观察它。安：这非常令人震惊，因为
47:48	A: This is very shocking, because in our last conversation, just towards the end, we came to the place where we raised the question of someone saying to himself, 'I think I understand what I have heard, now I am going to try that'. And then fear holds up a mirror to itself.	在我们上次谈话中，临近结束，我们进行到这个地方，我们提出了这个问题：有个人对自己说， “我认为我理解了我听到的话，现在我将要试验一下”。此时恐惧对自己举起了一面镜子。克：当然。安：然后这个人突然就被一个镜子的世界包围了起来。
48:13	K: Of course.	克：先生，当你看到一只危险的动物，
48:14	A: And one is suddenly ringed about by a world of mirrors.	你不会说，“我会考虑一下”，
48:20	K: You don't say, sir, when you see a dangerous animal, 'I will think about it', you move! You act. Because there is tremendous destruction waiting there. That is a self-protective reaction, which is intelligence, says, 'Get out!' Here we are not using intelligence. And intelligence operates when we have looked at all these fears, the movements of it, the inwardness of it, the subtlety of it - the whole movement. Then out of that comes intelligence and says, 'I have understood it'.	你会动起来！你会行动。因为可怕的毁灭正等在那里。那是一种自我保护反应，那是智慧，它说， “躲开！” 这里我们并不是在利用智慧。而是智慧自己会运行，当我们观察了所有这些恐惧，它的运动，它内在的特性，它的微妙——这整个运动，然后从这种观察中智慧就出现了，说，“我理解了它”。安：这真是不可思议。是的，这非常美，非常美。
49:14	A: It's marvellous. Yes, that's very beautiful, very beautiful. We were going to say something about pleasure.	我们接下来要谈谈有关快乐的事情。克：啊，那必须得探讨…… 安：对，正是。
49:24	K: Ah, that must be dealt... A: Right, exactly.	克：因此，先生，你瞧，我们说存在身体上的恐惧
49:29	K: So, sir, look, we said there is the physical fears and psychological fears, both are interrelated. We can't say, that's one and this is the other, they are all interrelated. And the interrelationship, and the understanding of that relationship brings this intelligence which will operate physically. It will say, 'let's then work together, co-operate together to feed man'. You follow, sir? A: Yes.	和心理上的恐惧，两者是相互关联的。我们不能说，那是一个而这是另一个，它们都是相关的。并且这种相互关联和对这种关系的理解，会带来从外在运行的这种智慧。这种智慧会说，“那么让我们一起工作，一起合作让人类都吃上饭”。你理解吗，先生？安：理解。克：让我们不分国籍、宗教和派别。
50:05	K: Let's not be national, religious, sectarian. What is important is to feed man, to clothe him, to make him live happily. But you see, unfortunately, we are so disorderly in our ways of life that we have no time for anything else. Our disorder is consuming us.	重要的是让人类吃上饭，穿上衣服，幸福地生活。但是你知道，不幸的是，我们的生活方式如此失序以至于我们没有时间做其他任何事情。我们的失序让我们精疲力竭。安：这与传统联系到一起是非常有趣的
50:38	A: It's interesting in relation to tradition - I don't mean to start an entirely new conversation now, but just to see what is immediately suggested, among many other things that would be, but just this one. What we could say about the misuses of tradition would be that we are actually taught what to fear. In our language we have an expression, don't we, that expresses part of this, old wives tales, we say, an accumulation of warnings about things that are simply imaginary. Not in the creative sense of imagination - and I'm using the word 'creative' there very loosely, very loosely - but fantasia, phantasmagoria, from the little ones' earliest years, gets this stuff with the bottle. And then when we get into adolescence, we reflect on these things we have learned, and if things go wrong, we feel that perhaps it's because we haven't sufficiently grasped what we have been told. And then some young people will say at that point, 'I'm going to junk the whole thing'. But then immediately the loneliness question arises. Yes, yes.	——我的意思并不是现在要开始全新的对话，而只是看看这直接说明了什么，可能还有很多其他的事情，但我们只来看看这一点。关于对传统的滥用我们可以说我们实际上是被教会了要害怕什么。在我们的语言中我们有一种表达，不是吗，表达了其中的一部分，比如我们说的“荒诞故事”，就是积攒起来的对各种事情的警告，而那些事情完全是想象出来的。不是在创造意义上的想象 ——我在这里很随意地使用了“创造”这个词，很随意——但幻想故事、幻影，小孩从早年岁月开始，就得到了罐装好的这些东西。接下来当我们步入青春期，我们回想我们学过的这些事情，如果事情出了差错，我们就感觉可能是因为我们没有充分领会别人告诉我们的事情。而此时某些年轻人会说， “我要丢掉所有这些东西”。但然后孤独的问题马上就出现了。噢，是的。克：他们无法做到，先生，它是生活，这是生活，
52:24	K: They can't, sir, it is life, this is life, you can't reject one part and accept the other part.	你无法拒绝一部分而接受另一部分。安：正是。克：生活意味着这一切。
52:30	A: Exactly. K: Life means all this. Freedom, order, disorder, communication, relationship, the whole thing is living. If we don't understand, say, 'Well, I don't want to have anything to do with' then you are not living. You are dying.	自由、秩序、失序、交流和关系，这整个事情就是生活。如果我们不理解，说， “呃，我不想和任何事有关系”，那么，你就没有活着。你在死去。安：噢，当然。
52:56	A: Yes, of course. I wonder how much... I wonder... I keep saying 'I wonder' and the reason I wonder is because what we have been saying about this movement as a unified field, is, when stated, taken by thought, and you might say 'put in the refrigerator' and that's the reality to the person. K: Quite, sir.	我想知道有多么我想知道……我一直说“我想知道”，我想知道的原因是因为我们所说的关于这种作为统一领域的运动，当它被表述出来，就被思想利用了，而你可能会说“放到冰箱里”，而这对那个人来说就是现实。克：没错，先生。安：而当我们想去看它时，
53:52	A: And when we want to look at it, it's one of the ice cubes we break out and have a look. Don't we? K: That's right, sir. What place has knowledge in the regeneration of man? Let's look. Our knowledge is: you must be separate. You are an American, I am a Hindu - that's our knowledge. Our knowledge is you must rely on your neighbour, because he knows, he is respectable. Society is respectability, society is moral, so you accept that. So knowledge has brought about all these factors. And you are telling me suddenly, asking me, what place has that... what place has tradition, what place has the accumulated knowledge of millennia? The accumulated knowledge of science, mathematics, that is essential. But what place has knowledge, which I have gathered through experience, through generation after generation of human endeavour, what place has it in the transformation of fear? None whatsoever. You see it! A: No. Clear, clear. Because what we... what we reached before that upon the instant that this is grasped, the thought that was operating as a fragment and the fear vanish, and it isn't that something takes its place in succession.	它是我们打碎并去看的很多小冰块中的一个。难道不是吗？克：说的对，先生。知识在人类的新生中有什么位置？让我们看一下。我们的知识是：你必定是分离的。你是美国人，我是印度人——这就是我们的知识。我们的知识是你必须依靠你的邻居，因为他知道，他令人尊敬。社会就是体面，社会是道德的，于是你接受了这些。因此知识带来了所有这些因素。而你突然告诉我，问我，那种传统和数千年积累起来的知识有什么地位？积累起来的科学和数学知识是必要的。但我通过经验、通过一代又一代人类的努力积累的知识有什么位置，它在恐惧的转化中有什么位置？没有任何位置。你看到了这一点！安：没有位置。这点清楚了。因为我们我们之前谈到过，一旦这一点得到了理解，作为碎片运行的思想和恐惧就消失了，但不是有某种东西随后取代了它的位置。克：不，没有东西取代它的位置。安：没有，没有东西取代它的位置。
55:47	K: No, nothing takes its place.	没有什么取代它的位置。
55:48	A: No, nothing takes its place. Nothing takes its place.	克：这并不意味着出现了空虚。安：哦，不，不是。
55:54	K: It doesn't mean there is emptiness. A: Oh no, no, no. But you see, it's right there, when you start thinking about that as a thought, you get scared.	但是你看，它就在那里，当你开始把它作为一个想法来思考的时候，你会害怕。克：这就是为什么非常重要的是
56:05	K: That's why it's very important to find out, or to understand, the function of knowledge and where knowledge becomes ignorance. We mix the two together. Knowledge is essential, to speak English, driving, and a dozen things, knowledge is essential. But when that knowledge becomes ignorance, when we are trying to understand actually 'what is,' the 'what is' is this fear, this disorder, this irresponsibility. To understand it you don't have to have knowledge. All you have to do is to look. Look outside you, look inside you. And then you see clearly that knowledge is absolutely unnecessary, it has no value in the transformation or the regeneration of man. Because freedom is not born of knowledge, freedom is when all the burdens are not. You don't have to search for freedom. It comes when the other is not.	发现或了解知识的功能，以及在何种情况下知识会变成无知。我们将两者混淆了起来。知识是必要的，对于说英语、开车以及很多事情来说，知识是必要的。但是当知识变成了无知，当我们试图去真正理解“现在如何”时， ——“现在如何”就是这种恐惧，这种失序，这种不负责任—— 要理解它你不必有知识。你需要做的只有观察。观察你的外在，观察你的内在。然后你会清楚地看到知识绝对是多余的，它在人类的转变或新生中没有任何价值。因为自由不是知识的产物，当所有的负担都不复存在时自由就出现了。你不必寻求自由。当不自由的东西不在了它就出现了。安：并没有什么东西取代了恐惧原来所在的位置。克：当然没有。
57:43	A: It isn't something in place of the horror that was there before. K: Of course not.	安：噢，是的。克：我认为说得差不多够了。
57:48	A: Yes, yes.	安：是的，是的，我非常理解你所说的。
57:49	K: I think that is enough.	也许下次我们可以继续这个话题，
57:51	A: Yes, yes, I quite follow you. Maybe next time we could carry on into this, with pleasure as such, the opposite side of that coin.	来探究快乐这个问题，那个硬币相反的一面。