克里希那穆提 - 了解，而不是控制欲望

Krishnamurti Subtitles

SD74CA7 - 了解，而不是控制欲望
与艾伦·W·安德森博士的第七次对话
美国，加利福尼亚，圣地亚哥
1974年2月21日

0:38	Krishnamurti in Dialogue with Dr. Allan W. Anderson	克里希那穆提与艾伦·W·安德森博士的对话
0:43	J. Krishnamurti was born in South India and educated in England. For the past 40 years he has been speaking in the United States, Europe, India, Australia, and other parts of the world. From the outset of his life's work he repudiated all connections with organised religions and ideologies and said that his only concern was to set man absolutely unconditionally free. He is the author of many books, among them The Awakening of Intelligence, The Urgency of Change, Freedom From the Known, and The Flight of the Eagle. This is one of a series of dialogues between Krishnamurti and Dr. Allan W. Anderson, who is professor of religious studies at San Diego State University where he teaches Indian and Chinese scriptures and the oracular tradition. Dr. Anderson, a published poet, received his degree from Columbia University and the Union Theological Seminary. He has been honoured with the distinguished Teaching Award from the California State University.	J·克里希那穆提出生在南印度，并在英国接受教育。在过去的40年间，他在美国欧洲、印度、澳大利亚以及世界其他很多地方做过演讲。从他毕生事业的一开始，他就断绝了与有组织的宗教和意识形态的所有关系，并且宣称他唯一关心的是让人获得绝对的、无条件的自由。他著有多本著作，包括像《智慧的觉醒》、《转变的紧迫性》、《从已知中解脱》及《鹰的翱翔》等等。这是克里希那穆提与艾伦·W·安德森博士的系列对话之一。安德森博士是研究宗教学的教授，目前任教于美国圣地亚哥州立大学，他教授印度和中国的古代经典以及传统的神谕文化。安德森博士，是一位有诗作出版的诗人，他在哥伦比亚大学和纽约协和神学院获得了学位。他曾经获得加利福尼亚州立大学颁发的杰出教学奖。
1:54	A: Mr. Krishnamurti, last time we were speaking you made the remark that fear and pleasure are opposite sides of the same coin. And, as I remember, when we concluded our last conversation, we were still talking about fear. And I was thinking, perhaps we could move from fear into the discussion of pleasure. But perhaps there is something more about fear that we need still to look into, to explore.	安：克里希那穆提先生，在我们上一次的对话中你曾说到恐惧和欢愉是同一枚硬币的两面。并且，我记得我们上次谈话结束时，我们仍在讨论恐惧。我在想，也许我们可以换一个话题，探讨一下欢愉。但是，或许我们还需要对恐惧作更多的观察和探讨。
2:32	K: Sir, I think for most of us fear has created such misery, so many activities are born of fear, ideologies and gods, that we never seem to be free completely from fear. That's what we were saying. A: That's what we were saying.	克：先生，我认为对我们大多数人而言，恐惧制造了如此多的痛苦，人有太多行为都产生于恐惧，还有各种意识形态和各路神明，仿佛我们永远也不能完全摆脱恐惧。这就是我们上次说到的。安：是的。
3:11	K: And so 'freedom from' and freedom are two different things. Aren't they? A: Yes.	克：因此，“摆脱什么”和自由是两件不同的事。不是吗？安：是这样。
3:20	K: Freedom from fear and the feeling of being completely free.	克：比如摆脱恐惧和完全自由的感觉。
3:29	A: Would you say that the notion even of 'freedom for' is also a suggestion of conflict? K: Yes.	安：你是说即使是“争取某种自由”的想法也隐含着一种冲突？克：是的。
3:36	A: Yes, yes, do go ahead. K: Yes. Freedom for, and freedom from, has this contradiction in itself, and therefore conflict, and therefore a battle, violence, struggle. When one understands that rather deeply, then one can see the meaning of what it means to be free. Not from or for, but intrinsically, deeply, by itself. Probably it's a non-verbal, non-ideational happening. A feeling that all the burden has fallen away from you. Not that you are struggling to throw them away. The burdens don't exist. Conflicts don't exist. As we were saying the other day, relationship then is in total freedom.	安：好的，好的，请继续吧。克：好的。争取某种自由，以及摆脱某样东西，本身就包含着这种矛盾，因此会有冲突，会有斗争、暴力和挣扎。当一个人非常深刻地理解了这一点，他就会知道自由意味着什么。不是摆脱什么或争取什么自由，而是本身内在固有的深刻自由。或许这不是一件可以用语言、用概念表达的事情。那是一种所有负担都从你身上卸下的感觉。但不是你百般努力去把它们扔掉。所有的负担都不存在了。所有的冲突都消失了。就像我们前几天说的那样，所有的关系此时都完全自由了。
5:02	A: Your word 'intrinsic' interested me. Sometimes, I think, in our tongue we will use the adverbial preposition 'in'. Would it be possible to say 'freedom in' or would you not even want to have 'in'?	安：你说的“内在固有”一词我很感兴趣。有时候，我想在我们的语言中我们会加一个介词“in（之中）”。我们可以说“某样东西中的自由”吗？或者你甚至都不会想加上一个“in”？
5:21	K: Not 'in', no. A: You don't want 'in'.	克：不，不要加上“in”。安：你觉得不该要“in”。
5:23	K: For, in, from. A: They are all out. I see, yes, yes, go on. Please do.	克：“为了”、“之中”、“从”都不要。安：都不要加。我明白了，好的，好的，继续吧。请你继续。
5:28	K: So, these two principles, pleasure and fear, seem to be deeply rooted in us, these two principles of pleasure and fear. I don't think we can understand pleasure without understanding fear.	克：因此，这两个原则，即欢愉和恐惧，它们仿佛深深扎根于我们内心，欢愉和恐惧这两个原则。我认为如果我们不了解恐惧，就不可能了解欢愉。
5:59	A: I see. I see.	安：我明白，我明白。
6:02	K: You can't separate them, really. But for investigating one has to separate.	克：事实上，你不能将它们两个分开。但是为了便于探究，我们不得不将它们区分开。
6:13	A: Yes, were it not for fear, do you think we...	安：是的，如果没有恐惧，你认为我们
6:17	K: We would never have thought of pleasure.	克：我们就永远不会想到欢愉。
6:19	A: We would never have got the notion. K: No.	安：我们将永远不会有欢愉这个想法。克：没错。
6:21	A: I understand.	安：我明白。
6:23	K: It's like punishment and reward. If there was no punishment at all, nobody would talk about reward.	克：这就好比惩罚和奖励。如果根本没有惩罚，那么就没有人会谈到奖励。
6:34	A: Yes, I see.	安：是的，我明白。
6:39	K: And when we are talking about pleasure I think we ought to be clear that we are not condemning pleasure. We are not trying to become puritanical or permissive. We are trying to investigate, or examine, explore, the whole structure and nature of pleasure as we did fear. A: As we did fear.	克：当我们谈到欢愉，我想有一点我们应该清楚：我们不是在谴责欢愉。我们并不是要做清教徒，也不是鼓励肆意放纵。我们将试着去探究、审视、探索欢愉的整个结构和本质，就像我们对恐惧的探究一样。安：就像我们对恐惧的探究。
7:15	K: And to do that properly and deeply, the attitude of condemnation, or acceptance of pleasure, must be set aside. You see it, naturally. I mean if I want to investigate something, I must be free from my inclinations, prejudices.	克：而若要恰当而深刻地去探究，那种谴责的态度，或者对欢愉的接受，都必须放在一边。你自然而然地去观察它。我的意思是如果我想要探究某样事物，我就必须摆脱自己主观的倾向和偏见。
7:41	A: The 'looking forward to' is, I see, beginning to emerge from what you are saying. Yes. We say we look forward to pleasure, we even ask a person - don't we? - what is your pleasure. We get nervous in thinking that perhaps we won't meet it. Now I take it that what you are saying suggests the anticipation of gratification here. Would that be right? K: Yes, that's right. Gratification, satisfaction, and sense of fulfilment. We will go into all that when we talk about pleasure. But we must be clear from the beginning, I think, that we are not condemning it. The priests throughout the world have condemned it.	安：这种“期待”，我发现，它开始从你刚才说的话中浮现出来了。是的。我们说我们期望得到欢愉，我们甚至会问其他人——不是吗？——你的欢愉是什么。我们想到有可能我们得不到满足，于是就会变得紧张。因此我认为你刚才说的话中隐含了得到满足的期望。是这样吗？克：是的，是这样。它暗含了满足、满意，以及成就感。当我们探讨欢愉时，我们就会探究那一切。但我认为，我们从一开始就必须清楚的是，我们不是在谴责它。全世界的牧师们都谴责它。
8:38	A: Yes, the notion of freedom is associated with many religious approaches to this. One is free from desire. K: Yes. So, one has to bear in mind that we are not justifying it, or sustaining it, or condemning it, but observing it. To really go into the question of pleasure, I think one has to look into desire, first. The more commercial and the usage of things, the more desire grows. You can see it: commercialism and consumerism. Through propaganda desire is, you know, sustained, is pushed forward - what is the word I am looking for? - is nourished, expanded.	安：是的，自由的概念与许多宗教的修行方法有关。其中一点就是摆脱欲望。克：是的。因此，我们必须记得，我们不是在为它辩护，不是要支持它，或者谴责它，而是去观察它。要想真正去探究欢愉的问题，我想我们首先应该探究一下欲望。商业宣传和物质享受越多，欲望就会越膨胀。你可以看到这样的情况：商业主义及消费主义。通过宣传，你知道，欲望得到了维系，并且被不断地向前推进 ——我该用怎样的词来表达呢？—— 欲望得以滋养、膨胀。
10:06	A: Nurtured. K: Nurtured. Inflamed, that's the word, inflamed. A: Inflamed.	安：助长。克：是的，助长。激发，就是这个词，激发。安：激发。
10:12	K: And you see this happening right through the world now. In India, for example - not that I know India much better than I do America, I've not lived there very long, I go there every year - this desire and this instant fulfilment is beginning to take place. Before, in the Brahmanical orthodox sense, there was a certain restraint, a certain traditional discipline, which says, 'Don't be concerned with the world and things. They are not important. What is important is the discovery of truth, of Brahman, reality' and so on. But now, all that's gone, now desire is being inflamed. 'Buy more', 'Don't be satisfied with two trousers, but have a dozen trousers'. This feeling of excitement in possession is stimulated through commercialism, consumerism, and propaganda.	克：你可以发现现在全世界都是这样。例如，在印度 ——并不是我对印度比对美国了解得更多，我在那儿住的时间并不长，但我每年都会去—— 这种欲望以及及时享乐的倾向正开始出现。以前，在正统的婆罗门那里，还有某些约束，某些传统的戒律，它们要求， “不要关心世俗和外物，它们并不不重要。重要的是去发现真理、大梵、真相”等等。但是现在，所有这一切都消失了，现在欲望正被激发出来。 “多买些”、 “不要满足于两条裤子，买上个一打才好呢”。这种占有的兴奋感通过商业主义、消费主义、及商业宣传得到了刺激。
11:45	A: There's a lot of terror, isn't there, associated with commercialism on the part of those who are purveyors in this, because the pleasure fades off, and this requires a stronger stimulus next time.	安：有很多可怕的东西，都与商业主义相关，不是吗？对这个过程中的那些供应商而言，因为欢愉逐渐减弱，于是需要在下一次使用更强烈的刺激。
12:00	K: That's what the couturiers are doing, every year there is a new fashion, or every six months, or every month, I don't know what it is. Look, there is this stimulation of desire. It is really quite frightening in a sense, how people are using, are stimulating desire to acquire money, possession, the whole circle of a life that is utterly sophisticated, a life in which there is instant fulfilment of one's desire, and the feeling if you don't fulfil, if you don't act, there is frustration. So all that's involved in it.	克：这就是那些女装设计师所做的，每一年都有新的潮流时尚，或者每半年，甚至每个月都有，我不知道那都是些什么。你瞧，到处都有这种对欲望的刺激。从某个意义上来讲，这真的挺可怕的，人们是怎样在利用和刺激欲望，以获得金钱，占有财产，生活的整个圈子，都变得极其讲究，整个一生都在寻求即刻满足自己的欲望，并且觉得如果你不去满足，如果你不采取行动，就会有挫败感。因此所有这一切都包含在里面。
12:58	A: Would you say then that the approach to this on the part of what you have described is on the basis of frustration. Frustration itself is regarded as the proper incentive.	安：你的意思是说，你刚才说到的那些寻求欲望满足的做法，都是基于挫败的吗？挫折本身就被认为是一个恰当的动机。
13:15	K: Yes. That's right. A: Yes, I see. Yes. And since frustration itself is a nullity, we are trying to suggest that nullity is in itself interested in being filled. Whereas it couldn't be by its nature.	克：是的，是这样。安：好的，我明白了，好的。由于挫折本身是一种无效的东西，因此我们想说明那种无效本身也想要得到满足。但从本质上说这又是不可能的。
13:33	K: Like children: don't frustrate them.	克：就像小孩一样：不要让他们感到受挫。
13:37	A: Yes. K: Let them do what they like.	安：是的。克：让他们做自己喜欢的事。
13:40	A: Yes, that reminds me of something years ago in graduate school. I was brought up as a child in England, and in a rather strict way compared with the permissiveness of today. And one of my graduate colleagues told me that he had been brought up by his parents in a totally permissive way. This was at Columbia University. And he looked at me and he said, 'I think you were better off, because at least you had some intelligible reference, against which to find out who you are, even if what you found out wasn't right, there was something to find out. Whereas I had to do it entirely on my own and I still haven't done it'. And he talked about himself as being constantly in the world trying to hide the fact that he was a nervous wreck. We had a long conversation over dinner.	安：是的，这让我想起前些年发生在研究院的一些往事。我是在英国被抚养长大的，和如今的放任相比，我受到的管教相当严格。而我在研究所的一个同事告诉我，他的父母对他则采取完全放任的抚养方式。那是在哥伦比亚大学。他看着我说道， “我觉得你更幸运，因为至少你有一些可资借鉴的参考，去发现你到底是谁，即使你的发现并不正确，但仍然会有所收获。而我却不得不完全依靠自己去做这件事，而直到现在这件事也没能完成”。并且他还说到他经常想要掩盖这样的一个事实，即他自己是一个极度神经质的人。我们曾经在晚饭时有过一次长谈。
14:41	K: Sir, I think that, before we enter into the complicated field of pleasure, we ought to go into this question of desire.	克：先生，我认为，在我们进入欢愉这个复杂的领域之前，我们应该先来探究一下欲望的问题。
14:53	A: Yes, yes. I'd like to do that.	安：是的，好。我也乐意这样做。
14:55	K: Desire seems to be a very active and demanding instinct, demanding activity that is going on in us all the time. So what is desire?	克：欲望看起来是一种非常活跃、要求强烈的本能，我们身上持续发生的一种要求强烈的活动。那什么是欲望呢？
15:23	A: I wonder if I could ask you to relate it to appetite as over against what one would call hunger, that is natural. Sometimes I have found a confusion - that seems to be a confusion to me, and that's why I am asking you. Someone will get the idea in class, talking about the question of appetite and desire, that if we look to nature, the lion desires to kill the antelope to satisfy his appetite. Whereas it has seemed to me the correct reply to that is: no, that's not the case. The lion wants to incorporate the antelope into his own substance. He's not chasing his appetite.	安：不知道我可不可以请你把它和食欲联系起来，相互对照看看什么可以叫做饥饿，饥饿是一件自然的事情。有时候我发现有这样一个困惑——那对我来说是一个困惑，所以我才要向你请教。有些人从课堂上得到了这个观念，当谈到食欲和欲望的问题时，如果我们把眼光投向自然界，我们会发现狮子想要杀死羚羊来满足自己的食欲。但是对我而言，正确的回答似乎是：不，事实并不是这样的。狮子想将羚羊融入自己的身体。它并不是在追逐它的食欲。
16:20	K: I think they are both related, appetite and desire.	克：我认为食欲和欲望，它们两者是相互关联的。
16:24	A: Yes.	安：是的。
16:26	K: Appetite, physical appetite, and there is psychological appetite.	克：食欲，生理上的欲望，还有心理上的欲望。
16:34	A: Yes, yes. K: Which is much more complex. Sexual appetite, and the intellectual appetite, a sense of curiosity.	安：是的，是的。克：心理上的欲望要复杂多了。性欲，以及获得知识的欲望，一种好奇心。
16:50	A: Even more furious. K: More furious, that's right. So, I think, both desire and appetite are stimulated by commercialism, by consumerism, which is the present civilisation actively operating in the world at the present time, both in Russia, everywhere, this consumerism has to be fulfilled.	安：要更强烈。克：是的，更强烈。因此，我认为，不管是欲望还是食欲都受到了商业主义的刺激，受到消费主义的刺激，它们就是眼下这个时代活跃运转着的现代文明，包括在俄罗斯，不管什么地方，这样的消费主义必须被满足。
17:34	A: Right. We talk about planned obsolescence.	安：是的。我们常说到“计划报废”（注：为增加销量故意制造不耐用商品）。
17:38	K: Planned obsolescence. Quite, quite.	克：计划报废，是的，是的。
17:40	A: You have that in mind, yes, I see.	安：你想到了这一点，是的，我明白了。
17:45	K: So, what is appetite and what is desire? I have an appetite, because I am hungry. It's a natural appetite. I see a car, and I have read a great deal about it, and I would like to possess it, drive it, feel the power of it, going fast, the excitement of all that. That is another form of appetite.	克：那么什么是食欲？什么是欲望？我有食欲，因为我饿了。这是一种自然的欲望。我看见一辆小汽车，我读到过关于它的大量资料，我想拥有它，想驾驶它，感受它的动力，开得飞快，以及诸如此类的刺激。这是另一种形式的欲望。
18:24	A: Yes.	安：是的。
18:26	K: Appetite, intellectual appetite of discussing with a clever, intelligent, observing man or woman, to discuss, to stimulate each other in discussion.	克：欲望，智识上的欲望，想要寻求一个聪明的、理解力强的、敏于观察的男人或女人来一同讨论，以便在讨论中互相激发。
18:46	A: Yes.	安：是的。
18:48	K: And comparing each other's knowledge, a kind of subtle fight.	克：然后比较双方的知识，这是一场非常微妙的较量。
18:56	A: Making points. K: Points.That's right. And that is very stimulating.	安：积分数。克：分数，没错。这让人感到非常刺激。
19:03	A: Oh yes, yes, it is.	安：噢，是的，是的，就是这样。
19:07	K: And there is the sexual appetite, the sexual appetite of constantly thinking about it, chewing the cud. All that, both psychological and physical appetites, normal, abnormal. The feeling of fulfilment and frustration. All that's involved in appetite. And I'm not sure whether religions, organised religions and beliefs, whether they will not stimulate the peculiar appetite for rituals.	克：还有性的欲望，对性念想不断、反复回味的那种性欲。所有这些，既有心理上的也有生理上的欲望，有正常的、不正常的，还有成就感和挫败感。所有这些包含在欲望中。我不确定宗教信仰，所有组织化的宗教和信仰，是否它们就不会刺激一种对仪式典礼的特殊欲望。
20:04	A: I have the notion they do. It seems to me that, despite pious protestations that will be made against that, there is a theatrical display that occurs in this.	安：我觉得它们会刺激。对我而言，尽管有人会对此进行虔诚的抗议，但这里实际上有一种戏剧性的夸张表现。
20:18	K: Go to a Roman Catholic Mass, and you see the beauty of it, the beauty of colour, the beauty of the setting, the whole structure is marvellously theatrical and beautiful.	克：当我们参加一次罗马教廷的弥撒，你看到它的美，色彩的美，布置上的美，这整个结构都极其戏剧化、极其漂亮。
20:30	A: And for the moment it appears that we have heaven on earth.	安：在那一刻似乎我们就拥有了人间天堂。
20:34	K: Tremendously stimulating.	克：这是个巨大的刺激。
20:36	A: But then we have to go out again. K: Of course. And it's all stimulated through tradition, through usage of words, chants, certain association of words, symbols, images, flowers, incense, all that is very, very stimulating. And if one is used to that, one misses it.	安：但之后我们又得离开。克：当然。而且都是通过传统去刺激，通过使用词语、唱诵，某些词语、符号、图像的联想，花朵、熏香，所有这些都有很大很大的刺激性。而如果一个人习惯了这些，他就会常常心生惦记。
21:00	A: Oh yes, yes. I was thinking as you were saying about as... - at least to my ear - extraordinarily beautiful a language as Sanskrit, and the chanting of the Gita, and the swaying back and forth, and then one sits down to study what the words say, and one says to himself, now look, what on earth is going on when we are doing this, as over against what the word itself could disclose. But the seduction that is available, of course it's self-seduction, one can't blame the language for being beautiful, it's a self... And all this is encouraged. And the notion, I take it, that you are suggesting we look at here, is that there's a tremendously invested interest in keeping this up. K: Of course. Commercially it is. And if it is not sustained by the priests, the whole thing will collapse. So is this a battle to hold the human being in his appetites, which is really very frightening when you look at it. Frightening in the sense rather disgusting in one way, exploiting people, and intrinsically destructive to the human mind.	安：噢，是的，是这样。我在想，当你说到 ——至少就我听到而言——一种格外美丽的语言，就像梵语，以及对《薄伽梵歌》的诵唱，来回反复的咏读，然后一个人坐下来，开始研究这些词语的意思，然后他对自己说，现在来看看，我们在做这件事时究竟发生了什么，看看它与文字本身所揭示的东西有何不同。但这诱惑触手可及，当然那是一种自我诱惑，一个人不能因为美丽而责备语言，那是一种自我的而所有这些都备受鼓励。而对于这一想法，我认为，如你所建议我们在这里要探究的，人们投注了巨大的兴趣来保持这一切的运转。克：当然。从商业上讲就是如此。如果没有牧师维持，这整个东西就会崩溃瓦解。因此是否这就是一场保持人类欲望的战争呢，当你观察它的时候，你会觉得它真的非常可怕。它让人恐惧的程度甚至让人觉得非常厌恶，它剥削人们，从本质上毁坏人的心灵。
22:34	A: Yes. Yes. I've had this problem in teaching in my classes, in terms of my own discussion in class. Sometimes it has seemed that maybe the first stanza of a poem that I will have known by heart would be appropriate. And so I begin to recite it, and when I get to the end of it, the expectation has arisen, the ears are there, the bodies are leaning forward, and I have to stop, you see, and I have to say, well, you see, we can't go on, because you are not listening to what I am saying, you are listening to how it is being said. And if I read it terribly, you would no more listen to what it is. Your disgust would dominate just as the pleasure is dominating now. And the students have got after me for not reciting more poetry. You see that you would be upset with that! It is a perfect sign that you haven't started to do your work in class yet. And then we are up against the problem that they think I am being ascetical and denying the goodies. That's part of what you mean.	安：是的，是这样。当我教书时就曾在课堂上碰到这个问题，那是在我自己课堂上的讨论。有时候，看起来也许有一首诗的第一节我早已铭记在心，把它用在当时会非常适合。所以我开始背诵它，然后当我完成了背诵，这时期望就浮现了，无数耳朵在那儿竖着，身体正向前倾，而我不得不停下，你知道，我不得不说，你看，我们不能再继续了，因为你并没有听我在说什么，你是在听它是怎样被说出来的。如果我读得很糟糕，你就不会再继续听讲的是什么了。你的厌恶将占据主导，就像现在欢愉在控制一切一样。然后学生们就责备我没有继续背诵更多的诗。你瞧你会对这件事感到很不安！你还没有开始你在课堂上的工作，这是个非常好的迹象。然后我们又要面对这样一个问题，即他们认为我在提倡苦行，在拒绝任何美好的东西。这大概是你的一部分意思。
23:57	K: Yes, of course. A: Good, good. I'm glad you cleared that for me. Yes.	克：是的，当然。安：很好，很好。我很高兴你帮我澄清了它。是的。
24:01	K: And there is this desire, appetite - we have a little bit gone into it - what is desire? Because I see something and immediately I must have it: a gown, a coat, a tie, the feeling of possession, the urge to acquire, the urge to experience, the urge of an act that will give me tremendous satisfaction. The satisfaction might be the acquisition, acquiring a tie, or a coat, or sleep with a woman, or - acquiring. Now, behind that, isn't there, sir, this desire. I might desire a house and another might desire a car, another might desire to have intellectual knowledge. Another might desire God or enlightenment. They are all the same. The objects vary, but the desire is the same. One I call the noble, the other I call the ignoble, worldly, stupid. But the desire behind it. So what is desire? How does it come about that this very strong desire is born, is cultured? You follow? What is desire? How does it take place in each one of us?	克：我们有欲望、嗜好 ——我们对此作了些探讨——什么是欲望？因为我看到了某样东西，我马上就想拥有它：一件礼服，一件外套，一条领带，那种占有感，那种想要得到的急切要求，想要经历的强烈欲望，那种通过某个行为带给我巨大满足的渴望。这种满足可能是获得某个东西，得到一条领带、一件外套，或者与一个女人上床，等等，总之是获得。你瞧，先生，在这背后，不正是这个欲望吗。我也许想要一座房子，而另外一个人也许想要一辆汽车，还有人或许想要丰富的知识。另外有些人想要上帝或者开悟。所有这些都是一样的。虽然欲望的对象不同，但欲望本身却是一样的。我们称其中一种为高尚，称另一种为卑劣、世俗、愚蠢。但背后都是欲望。那什么是欲望呢？这一切是如何产生的，这种如此强烈的欲望是怎样诞生，怎样被培育的？你明白吗？什么是欲望？它是如何在我们每个人身上发生的？
26:06	A: If I've understood you, you've made a distinction between, on the one hand, appetite associated with natural hunger, that sort of desire, and now we are talking about desire which sometimes gets the name 'artificial', I don't know whether you would want to call it that, but sometimes... K: Desire. I might desire, but the objects vary, sir, don't they?	安：如果我理解了你的意思，你在这两者间做了一个区别，即一方面，食欲和自然的饥饿有关，那是一种欲望，而我们现在讨论的欲望有时我们也称它为“人为的”，我不知道你是否想这样称呼它，但有时…… 克：欲望。我可以有欲望，但它的对象是多样的，不是吗？
26:31	A: Yes, the objects vary.	安：是的，对象是各种各样的。
26:32	K: The objects of desire vary according to each individual, each tendency and idiosyncrasy, or conditioning, and so on. Desire for that, and that, and that. But I want to find out, what is desire? How does it come about? I think it's fairly clear that.	克：欲望的对象是多样的，那取决于不同的人、不同的倾向、不同的嗜好、不同的制约，等等。想要这样，想要那样，想要别的。但我想搞清楚，什么是欲望？它是如何产生的？我想这一点是很明白的。
27:00	A: You mean a sense of absence?	安：你的意思是说一种匮乏感吗？
27:03	K: No, no. I am asking what is desire? How does it come?	克：不，不是的。我在问什么是欲望？它是如何产生的？
27:10	A: One would have to ask himself.	安：每个人只能问他自己。
27:12	K: Yes, I'm asking you, how does it come about that there is this strong desire - for or against - desire itself. I think it's clear: perception, visual perception, then there is sensation, then there is contact and desire comes out of it. That's the process, isn't it?	克：是的，我在问你，它是如何产生的，这样一种强烈的欲望 ——为了什么或者反对什么——欲望本身。我想这是很清楚的：先是有感知，视觉的感知，然后有了感受，然后是接触，然后欲望就从中产生了。这就是它的过程，不是吗？
27:54	A: Oh yes, I'm quite clear now what you are saying. I've been listening very hard.	安：噢，是的，我想我很清楚你说的意思了。我一直在很努力地听。
28:00	K: Perception, contact, sensation, desire.	克：感知，接触，感受，欲望。
28:06	A: And then, if the desire is frustrated, anger.	安：然后，当欲望遭受挫折，就会生气。
28:09	K: All the rest of it, violence. All the rest of it follows. A: Follows.	克：还有诸如此类的反应，暴力。诸如此类的反应会随之而来。安：都随之而来。
28:13	K: So desire. So the religious people, monks, throughout the world said, 'Be without desire. Control desire. Suppress desire'. Or if you cannot, transfer it to something that's worthwhile: God, or enlightenment, or Truth, or this, or that.	克：这就是欲望。那些遍及世界的宗教人士、僧侣们说， “不要有欲望。控制欲望。压抑欲望”。如果你做不到，那就把它转移到一些有意义的事情上：上帝，或者开悟，或者真理，或者这样、那样。
28:42	A: But then that's just another form of desire: not to desire. K: Not to desire. Of course.	安：但这只不过是另一种形式的欲望：不要有欲望。克：不要有欲望。当然。
28:47	A: So we never get out of that.	安：所以我们永远无法逃脱它。
28:49	K: Yes, but you see, they said, 'Control'.	克：是的，但是你瞧，他们说，“控制”。
28:54	A: Power is brought into play. K: Control desire. Because you need energy to serve God, and if you are caught in desire, you are caught in a tribulation, in trouble, which will dissipate your energy. Therefore hold it, control it, suppress it. You have seen this, sir, I have seen it so often in Rome, the priests are walking along with the Bible, and they daren't look at anything else, they keep on reading it, because they are attracted, it doesn't matter, to a woman, or a nice house, or a nice cloak, so keep looking at it, never expose yourself to tribulation, to temptation. So hold it, because you need your energy to serve God. So desire comes about through visual perception, contact, sensation, desire. That's the process of it.	安：能量被发挥出来。克：控制欲望。因为你需要能量去服侍上帝，如果你陷入欲望之中，你就陷入了苦海，陷入了困境，它会浪费你的能量。因此要约束它，控制它，压抑它。你看到过这样的事，先生，我在罗马时常常见到这样的事，神父们手拿《圣经》一路走来，他们不敢看其他任何东西，他们持续地诵着经，因为他们会被别的东西吸引，无论什么，被一个女人、一座漂亮的房子，或者一件好看的披风吸引，因此一直盯着书本看，永远不要把你自己暴露在苦难之下，暴露于诱惑之下。所以控制它吧，因为你的精力要用来服务上帝。因此欲望产生于视觉感知、接触、感受、欲望。这就是它的整个过程。
30:34	A: And then there's the whole backlog of memory of that in the past to reinforce it.	安：然后就会有整个过去的记忆存储去强化它。
30:38	K: Of course, yes. A: Yes. I was taken with what you just said. Here's this book, that's already outside me, it's really no more than what they put on horses when they are in a race. K: Blinkers! A: Blinkers.	克：当然，是这样。安：是的。我很喜欢你刚才说的。这就是那本书，它已经在我之外了，实际上它只不过是赛马时人们在马身上套的那个东西。克：马眼罩！安：马眼罩。
30:54	K: The Bible becomes blinkers!	克：《圣经》变成了马眼罩！
30:57	A: The blinking Bible. Yes, I follow that. But the thing that caught me was, never, never quietly looking at it.	安：遮眼睛的《圣经》是的，我明白了。但这一使我深陷的事物，永远，永远不能安静地看待它。
31:14	K: That's it, sir. A: The desire itself.	克：就是这样，先生。安：即欲望本身。
31:18	K: I walked once behind a group of monks, in India. And they were very serious monks. The elderly monk, with his disciples around him, they were walking up a hill and I followed them. They never once looked at the beauty of the sky, the blue, the extraordinary blue of the sky and the mountains, and the blue light, the grass, and the trees, and the birds, and the water - never once looked around. They were concerned and they had bent their head down, and they were repeating something, which I happen to know in Sanskrit, and going along, totally unaware of nature, totally unaware of the passers-by. Because their whole life has been spent in controlling desire and concentrating on what they thought is the way to reality. So desire there acted as a repressive limiting process.	克：在印度的时候，我曾经跟在一群僧侣后面走。他们是非常严肃的僧侣。其中年长的僧人，他的四周围满弟子，他们走上一个小丘，我就跟在他们身后。他们从不瞅一眼美丽的天空，那纯净的蓝，非常特别的蓝色天空和群山，那蓝色的光线，草地，树林，那些鸟儿，流水——他们从不环顾四周。他们思虑重重，他们把头低下，并且重复着什么，那些梵语，我碰巧懂一些，他们一路走过，全然不顾身边的自然，也完全没有察觉到那些路过的行人。因为他们的整个生命都被用来控制欲望以及专注于他们所想象的通往真相的道路。因此欲望在这里就表现为一个抑制约束的过程。
32:52	A: Of course, of course. K: Because they are frightened. If I look, there might be a woman, I might be tempted - and cut it. So, we see what desire is and we see what appetite is, they are similar. A: Yes. Would you say appetite was a specific focus of desire?	安：当然，当然。克：因为他们心怀恐惧。如果我看了，万一有个女人，我就可能会受到诱惑——因此要阻断视听。所以，我们明白了什么是欲望，以及什么是食欲，它们很相似。安：是的。你觉得食欲是一种特殊的欲望的焦点吗？
33:27	K: Yes, put it that way if you want. Yes. A: All right.	克：是的，如果你愿意，可以这么说。是这样的。安：好的。
33:29	K: But they both go together. A: Oh yes, yes.	克：但它们是一起发生的。安：噢，是的，是的。
33:34	K: They are two different words for the same thing. Now, the problem arises: need there be a control of desire at all? You follow, sir?	克：它们是表达同一件事物的两个不同的词。现在，问题出现了：究竟有没有必要去控制欲望呢？你明白吗，先生？
33:57	A: Yes, I'm asking myself, because in our conversations I've learned that every time you ask a question, if I take that question and construe it in terms of a syllogistical relation to things that have been stated as premises before, I am certainly not going to come to the answer - that is, not the right answer as over against the wrong answer - I'm not going to come to the one answer that is needful. So every time you've asked me this morning, I have asked myself inside. Yes, please go ahead.	安：是的，我在问我自己，因为在我们的谈话中我学到了一点，即每次你问一个问题，如果我接受那个问题，并且用演绎的方法去分析它，和之前所假设的前提联系在一起的话，我肯定是得不出答案的——也就是说，与错误答案相对的正确答案—— 我不会得出那个需要的答案。因此今天早上你每次问我问题，我都要先问问我的内心。是的，请继续。
34:40	K: You see, discipline is a form of suppression and control of desire, religious, sectarian, non-sectarian, it's all based on that - control. Control your appetite, control your desires. control your thought. And this control gradually squeezes out the flow of free energy.	克：你瞧，戒律是一种压抑和控制欲望的形式，修士，宗派主义者，非宗派主义者，所有的都奠基于此——控制。控制你的食欲，控制你的欲望。控制你的思想。这种控制逐渐排挤掉了自由的能量之流。
35:28	A: Oh yes, yes. And yet, amazingly, the Upanishads in particular, have been interpreted in terms of tapas, as encouraging this control.	安：噢，是的，是这样。并且，非常令人惊讶的是，特别是《奥义书》，被从苦行的角度加以解释，去鼓励这样的控制。
35:44	K: I know, I know. In India it is something fantastic! The monks who have come to see me - they are called sannyasis - they have come to see me. They are incredible. I mean, if I can tell you, a monk, who came to see me some years ago, quite a young man, he left his house and home at the age of 15 to find God. And he had renounced everything. Put on the robe. And as he began to grow older, at 18, 19, 20, sexual appetite was something burning. He explained to me how it became intense. He had taken a vow of celibacy, as sannyasis do, monks do. And he said, day after day, in my dreams, in my walk, in my going to a house and begging, this thing was becoming so... like a fire. You know what he did to control it?	克：我知道，我知道。在印度它是非常奇异的东西！那些来见我的僧侣 ——他们被称为托钵僧——他们来见我。他们简直叫人难以置信。我的意思是，如果我可以告诉你，其中一个僧侣，好些年之前他来见我，他非常年轻，他在15岁时就离开了他的房子和家人去寻找神。他断绝了与一切的联系，穿上了僧袍。但随着他年龄的增长，到18、19、20岁，性的欲望开始燃烧。他向我解释了它如何变得强烈。他曾经许誓要禁欲终身，就像托钵僧、僧侣修士们那样。然后他说：日复一日，在我的梦中，在我的旅途中，在我到一户人家乞讨时，这一欲望变得如此强烈……就好像熊熊大火。你知道他是怎么控制它的吗？
37:02	A: No, no, what did he do? K: He had it operated.	安：不，不知道，他怎样做的呢？克：他把它割掉了。
37:05	A: Oh, for Heaven's sake! Is that a fact?	安：噢，天哪！这是真的吗？
37:15	K: Sir, his urge for God was so - you follow, sir? The idea, the idea, not the reality. A: Not the reality. No.	克：先生，他对神如此的渴望——你明白吗，先生？可那只是个概念，一个概念，并不真实。安：并不真实。
37:27	K: So he came to see me, he had heard several talks which I had given in that place. He came to see me in tears. He said, 'What have I done?' You follow, sir? A: Oh, I'm sure. Yes.	克：所以他来见我，他听过我在那个地方的几场讲话。他含着泪来见我。他说，“我都做了些什么？” 你明白吗，先生？安：噢，是的。我知道。
37:43	K: 'What have I done to myself? I cannot repair it. I cannot grow a new organ. It is finished'. That is the extreme. But all control is in that direction. I don't know if I am...	克：“我对自己都做了些什么？我无法去修补它。我不可能再长出一个新的器官。全完了”。这是一种极端的情况。但所有的控制都是在那个方向上的。我不知道我是不是
38:12	A: Yes, this is terribly dramatic. The one who is sometimes called the first Christian theologian, Origen, castrated himself out of, as I understand it, a misunderstanding of the words of Jesus 'If your hand offends you cut it off'.	安：是的，这件事非常有戏剧性。有一个有时被称作第一个基督教神学家的人，叫奥利金，他把自己阉割了，根据我的理解，大概是因为对耶稣一句话的误会： “若是你的手冒犯了你，就把它砍下来”。
38:36	K: Sir, authority to me is criminal in this direction. It doesn't matter who says it.	克：先生，对我来说，权威在这一问题上就是罪犯。不管是谁说了这句话。
38:44	A: And like the monk that you just described, Origen came later to repent of this in terms of seeing that it had nothing to do with anything. A terrible thing. Was this monk, if I may ask, also saying to you in his tears that he was absolutely no better off in any way, shape or form?	安：和你刚才描述的僧侣一样，奥利金后来也懊悔这件事，因为他发现这和任何事情都没关系。这真是一件糟糕的事。是否这个僧人，如果我可以问，也垂泪对你说他完全没有觉得有什么变得更好了，无论是身体还是外形？
39:10	K: No, on the contrary, sir, he said, 'I've committed a sin. I've committed an evil act'. A: Yes, yes, of course.	克：没错，与之相反，先生，他说，“我犯了罪。我犯下一个邪恶的罪行”。安：是的，是的，当然。
39:17	K: He realised what he had done. That through that way there is nothing. A: Nothing.	克：他意识到他以往都做了什么。走过了那条路却什么也没有。安：什么也没有。
39:28	K: I've met so many - not such extreme forms of control and denial - but others. They've tortured themselves for an idea. You follow, sir? For a symbol, for a concept. And we have sat with them and discussed with them, and they begin to see what they have done to themselves. I met a man who is high up in bureaucracy, and one morning he woke up and he said, 'I'm passing judgement in court over others, punishment, and I seem to say to them: I know truth, you don't, you are punished'. So one morning he woke up and he said, 'This is all wrong. I must find out what truth is', so he resigned, left, and went away for 25 years to find out what truth is. Sir, these people are dreadfully serious, you understand?	克：我见过太多了——不仅仅是这么极端的形式，去控制和拒绝欲望——还有很多其他的。他们折磨自己仅仅因为一个想法。你明白吗，先生？为了一个符号，为了一个概念。我和他们坐在一起与他们一起讨论，然后他们开始审视他们都对自己做了些什么。我曾见过一个人，他是政府部门的高官，一天早上，他醒过来说， “我在法院里对别人的事情做出判决、惩处，我似乎在对他们说：我知道真理，你们都不知道，所以你们要被惩罚”。因此一天早上他醒来后说，“所有这些都错了。我必须搞清楚什么是真理”，所以他辞了职，离开了法院，他离开了25年去发现什么是真理。先生，这些人都是极其严肃认真的，你知道吗？
40:45	A: Oh yes. K: They are not like cheap repeaters of some mantra and such rubbish. So somebody brought him to the talks I was giving. And he came to see me the next day. He said, 'You are perfectly right. I have been meditating on truth for 25 years, and it has been self-hypnosis, as you pointed out. I've been caught in my own verbal, intellectual formula, structure. And I haven't been able to get out of it'. You understand, sir? A: 25 years. That's a very moving story.	安：噢，是的。克：他们不像那些背诵咒语及此类垃圾的廉价的复读机。所以有人带他来听我的讲话。第二天他来见我。他说，“你完全正确。我对真理苦思冥想了25年，而这不过是自我催眠，就像你指出的那样。我一直陷在自己的言语、理智的模式、结构中。而我之前一直没能摆脱它”。你明白吗，先生？安：25年。这是个很感人的故事。
41:39	K: And to admit that he was wrong needs courage, needs perception.	克：承认他做错了这需要勇气，需要洞察。
41:45	A: Exactly.	安：没错。
41:46	K: Not courage - perception. So, seeing all this, sir, the permissiveness on one side, the reaction to Victorian way of life, the reaction to the world with all its absurdities, trivialities, and banality, you know, all that absurdity, and the reaction to that is to renounce it. To say, 'Well, I won't touch it'. But desire is burning all the same, all the glands are working. You can't cut away your glands! Therefore they say, control, therefore they say, don't be attracted to a woman, don't look at the sky, because the sky is so marvellously beautiful, and beauty then may become the beauty of a woman, the beauty of a house, the beauty of a chair in which you can sit comfortably. So don't look. Control it. You follow, sir? A: I do.	克：不是勇气——是洞察。因此，看到所有这一切，先生，一方面是放任，那是对维多利亚式的生活方式的反应，对世俗世界的反应，包括它的荒谬、浅薄，以及陈腐，你知道，所有这些荒谬，而对此的反应则是弃绝。一边说着：“好吧，我不会再碰它”。但欲望依然在那里燃烧，所有的腺体都在运作。你不能把你的腺体都切掉！于是他们说，控制它吧，于是他们说，不要被一个女人引诱，不要看天空，因为天空美得如此不可思议，而这美很可能变成一个女人的美，变成一座房子的美，变成一个你可以舒适地坐在上面的椅子的美。因此不要看。控制它。你明白吗，先生？安：是的。
43:19	K: The permissiveness, the reaction: to restraint, control, the pursuit of an idea as God, and for that - control desire. And I met a man again: he left his house at the age of 20. Really quite an extraordinary chap he was. He was 75 when he came to see me. He had left home at the age of 20, renounced everything, all that, and went from teacher to teacher to teacher. He went to - I won't mention names, because that wouldn't be right - and he came to me, talked to me. He said, 'I went to all these people asking if they could help me to find God. I've spent from the age of 20 till I'm 75 wandering all over India. I'm a very serious man, and not one of them has told me the truth. I've been to the most famous, to the most socially active, the people who talk endlessly about God. After all these years I returned to my house and found nothing. And you come along', he said, 'you come along, you never talk about God. You never talk about the path to God. You talk about perception. The seeing 'what is' and going beyond it. The beyond is the real, not the 'what is'. Now show me'. You understand? He was 75.	克：有放纵，然后是反应：去约束、控制，去追求神这个概念，并且为此——去控制欲望。还有一次我遇见了一个人：他20岁时就离开了家。他真的是一个非常特别的家伙。当他来见我时已经75岁了。他在20岁时离开家，放弃了一切，所有的东西，然后从一个老师到另一个老师，再到另一个。他到了——我就不提那些名字了，那么做不合适—— 尔后他到了我这里，和我交谈。他说，“我到所有这些人那里去，问他们是否可以帮我找到神。我从20岁开始到现在已经75岁了，走遍了整个印度。我是个很认真的人，但他们中没有一个告诉过我什么是真理。我去见过那些最负盛名、在社会上非常活跃的人，他们谈起神来滔滔不绝。可这么多年以后我回到我的家里，结果却两手空空。而这时候你出现了”，他说， “你出现了，但你却从来不谈论神。你从来不谈论通向神明之路。你谈论觉知。看到‘现状’，然后超越它。彼岸的事物才是真实的，而不是‘现状’。现在请告诉我吧”。你明白吗？他已经75岁了。
45:46	A: Yes, 55 years on the road.	安：是啊，在路上走了55年。
45:52	K: They don't do that in Europe, on the road. He was literally on the road.	克：他们在欧洲不做这样的事，这样在路上游走。而他真的是在游方苦行。
45:57	A: Yes. I'm sure he was. Because you said he was in India.	安：是的，我知道。因为你说他是在印度。
46:00	K: Begging from village to village to village. When he told me I was so moved, tears almost, to spend a whole lifetime, as they do in business world.	克：从一个村庄，到另一个村庄再到另一个，一路乞讨。当他告诉我这些的时候，我被深深触动，几乎要流泪，他就那样度过了一生，就像这个商业世界里的人们一样。
46:20	A: Yes.	安：是的。
46:23	K: 50 years to go day after day to the office and die at the end of it. It is the same thing. A: The same thing.	克：50年日复一日地去办公室上班，到最后就那样死去。这是件同样的事情。安：是的，是一样的。
46:33	K: Fulfilling of desire, money, money, money, money, more things, things, things; and the other - none of that, but another substitute for that.	克：欲望的满足，钱，钱，钱，还是钱，更多的东西，没完没了的东西，等等 ——或者这些都不是，但一定有另一样去代替。
46:47	A: Yes, just another form.	安：是的，只是另一种形式。
46:53	K: So looking at all this, sir, I know it is dreadful what human beings have done to themselves and to others; seeing all that, one inevitably asks the question: how to live with desire? You can't help it, desire is there the moment I see something - a beautiful flower, the admiration, the love of it, the smell of it, the beauty of the petal, the quality of the flower, and so on, the enjoyment. One asks: is it possible to live without any control whatsoever?	克：所以你瞧瞧这一切，先生，这是多么可怕呀，人类对他自己以及对他人的所作所为。看见这一切，我们必然要问：怎样与欲望共处呢？你对此无能为力，欲望就在那儿，当我一看见某样东西——一朵好看的花，对它的赞美、喜爱，它的芬芳，它花瓣的美，它的质感等等，那种享受。因此我们会问：有没有可能活着而没有任何控制呢？
47:51	A: The very question is terrifying in the context of these disorders that you are speaking about. I am taking the part now of the perspective that one is in, when, out of frustration, he comes to you, let us say, like the man did after 55 years on the road; the minute he walks in the door he has come to get something he doesn't already have. And as soon as you make that statement, if the answer that is coming up - he starts 'if-ing' right now - if the answer is going to be something that completely negates this whole investment of 55 years on the road, it seems that most persons are going to freeze right there.	安：这个问题本身就令人恐惧，如果将它置于你所谈及的这种混乱状况下来看的话。我现在是从一个人所遭遇的这种处境来看的，当他因为遭受了挫折于是来找你，比如说，就像那个在旅途中耗费了55年的人所做的那样，当他走进屋里的一刹那，他就明白了一些早先没有领会的东西。只要你说出了那句话，如果接下来的答案 ——他立刻就开始了“如果-正在”这样的假设—— 如果这个答案完全否定了他这55年在路上的整个投入，大多数人似乎都会立刻惊呆。
48:55	K: And it is a cruel thing too, sir. He has spent 55 years at it and suddenly realises what he has done. The cruelty of deception. You follow? A: Oh yes.	克：这也是件非常残酷的事，先生。他花费了55年在这件事上，然后突然意识到自己过去都做了些什么。一种残酷的欺骗。你明白吗？安：噢，是的。
49:09	K: Self-deception, deception of tradition - you follow? - of all the teachers who have said, control, control, control. And he comes and you say to him, what place has control?	克：自我欺骗，传统的欺骗——你明白吗？—— 所有的老师都说控制、控制、控制。而他到你这儿来，你却对他说，控制有什么意义呢？
49:34	A: I think I am beginning to get a very keen sense of why you say, 'Go into it'. Because there is a place there like dropping a stitch we might say. He doesn't get past that initial shock, then he is not going to go into it.	安：我想我开始非常清楚地意识到为什么你会说“去探究它”。因为那里有个地方好像漏织了一针——我们或许可以这样说。他还没有从最初的震惊中缓过来，然后他就没办法去探究它。
50:00	K: So we talked, I spent hours, we discussed, we went into it. Gradually he saw. He said, 'Quite right'. So, sir, unless we understand the nature and the structure of appetite and desire, - which are more or less the same - we cannot understand very deeply pleasure.	克：因此我们才长谈，我花了好些时间，我们一起讨论，一起探究它。渐渐地他明白了。他说到，“是这么回事”。因此先生，除非我们理解了食欲、欲望的性质和结构， ——这两者或多或少都是一回事—— 否则我们就没办法非常深刻地理解欢愉。
50:29	A: Yes, yes. I see why you have been good enough to lay this foundation before we get to the opposite side of the coin.	安：是的，是这样。我明白了为什么你在说到问题的另一面之前要一直足够耐心地打好这个基础。
50:37	K: Because pleasure and fear are the two principles that are active in most human beings, in all human beings. And that is reward and punishment. Don't bring up a child through punishment but reward him. You know, the psychologists are advocating some of this.	克：因为欢愉和恐惧是两个在我们多数人身上都很活跃的因素，在所有人身上都是这样。这也是奖励和惩罚。不要通过奖励和惩罚去培养一个孩子。你知道的，心理学家常常建议这样做。
51:06	A: Yes, yes. They are encouraged by the experiments on Pavlov's dogs.	安：是的，是这样。这种做法因为巴甫洛夫的狗的试验而得到提倡。
51:11	K: Dogs, or peoples, or ducks, geese. Do this and don't do that. So, unless we understand fear, understand in the sense, investigate, see the truth of it, and if the mind is capable of going beyond it, to be totally free of fear, - as we discussed the other day - and also to understand the nature of pleasure. Because pleasure is an extraordinary thing, and to see a beautiful thing and to enjoy it - what is wrong with it?	克：狗，或者人，或者鸭子、鹅。要这样做，不要那样做。因此，除非我们理解了恐惧，理解的意思是去探究，看到它的真相，并且如果心可以超越它，完全地摆脱恐惧， ——就像我们前几天讨论的那样—— 并且也理解欢愉的本质。因为欢愉是一件很非凡的事情，看到一个美的事物，并享受它 ——这有什么不对吗？
51:59	A: Nothing. K: Nothing. See what is involved in it.	安：没有。克：没有。去看看这之中都涉及些什么。
52:04	A: Right. The mind plays a trick there. I say to myself, I can't find anything wrong with it, therefore nothing is wrong with it. I don't really believe that necessarily. And I was thinking a little while ago when you were speaking about the attempts through power to negate desire, through power.	安：好的。心智在这儿搞了个恶作剧。我对我自己说，我没有发现什么不对劲的地方，因此没有什么问题。我并不是真的相信这句话。刚才我还在想，当时你说到那些想要通过力量去拒绝欲望的企图，通过力量。
52:29	K: Because search for power, negating desire is search for power.	克：因为寻求力量，拒绝欲望就是寻求力量，
52:37	A: Would you be saying that one searches for power in order to secure a pleasure that has not yet been realised?	安：你的意思是说一个人寻求力量是为了得到那些还没有实现的欢愉？
52:47	K: Yes, yes.	克：是的，是这样。
52:48	A: I understood you well then? K: Yes.	安：我理解你的意思了？克：是的。
52:50	A: I see. It's a terrible thing.	安：我明白了。这是件糟糕的事。
52:52	K: But is a reality. A: Oh, it's going on.	克：但这是事实。安：噢是的，一直在发生。
52:55	K: It's going on. A: Oh yes. But we are taught that from children.	克：一直在发生。安：噢，是的。我们打小就被这样教育。
52:58	K: That's just it, sir. So, pick up any magazine, the advertisements, the half-naked ladies, women, and so on, so on. So, pleasure is a very active principle in man, as fear. A: Oh yes.	克：就是这样，先生。因此，你随便翻开一本杂志，那些广告，那些半裸的女人，女性，诸如此类，等等。因此，欢愉对人而言是一个非常活跃的因素，和恐惧一样。安：噢，是的。
53:25	K: And again society, which is immoral, has said, control. One side - the religious side - says, control, and commercialism says, don't control, enjoy, buy, sell. You follow? And the human mind says, this is all right. My own instinct is to have pleasure, I'll go after it. But Saturday, or Sunday, or Monday, or whatever the day it is, I'll give it to God. You follow, sir? A: Yes.	克：然后社会，这个不道德的社会又说，控制它。一方面——宗教的方面——说，控制它，而同时商业主义又说，不要控制，去享受，去购买，去销售。你明白吗？于是人的心智说，这都是正确的。我本能的反应是要得到欢愉，因此我就去追逐它。但在星期六、星期天，或者星期一，或者不管哪一天，我要把它献给上帝。你明白吗，先生？安：是的。
54:09	K: And this game goes on, forever it has been going on. So what is pleasure? You follow, sir? Why should pleasure be controlled, I'm not saying it's right or wrong, please let's be very clear from the beginning that we are not condemning pleasure. We are not saying you must give reign to it, let it run. Or that it must be suppressed or justified. We are trying to understand why pleasure has become of such extraordinary importance in life. Pleasure of enlightenment. Pleasure of sex. Pleasure of possession. Pleasure of knowledge. Pleasure of power.	克：于是这个游戏就这样继续，永远这样继续着。因此，什么是欢愉？你明白吗，先生？为什么欢愉应该被控制，我不是说这是正确还是错误，我们从一开始就必须非常清楚我们并不是在谴责欢愉。我们并不是说你必须去放任它，让它自行其是，也不是说它必须被抑制或合理化。我们是在试图理解为什么欢愉在生活中变得如此极端的重要。开悟的欢愉，性的欢愉，占有的欢愉，掌握知识的欢愉，权力的欢愉。
55:09	A: Heaven, which is regarded as the ultimate pleasure... K: The ultimate, of course.	安：天国，被认为是最终极的欢愉…… 克：终极的欢愉，当然。
55:17	A: ...is usually spoken of theologically as the future state.	安：……在神学上，它常被说成是一种未来的状态。
55:22	K: Yes.	克：是的。
55:24	A: This is to me very interesting in terms of what you have been saying, and even at the level of gospel songs we hear 'When the Roll is called up Yonder I'll be there'. When it's called up yonder, which means at the end of the line. And then there's the terror that I won't be good enough when...	安：这对我而言很有趣，根据你刚才说的，甚至我们常听到的那些福音歌曲： “当号角吹响我会在那儿”。当号角吹响，就是说到了最后的审判日。那时就会害怕到那时我不够好
55:47	K: When that... A: Yes, so I'm tightening up my belt to pay my heavenly insurance policy on Saturday and Sunday, the two days of the weekend that you mentioned. What if you got caught from Monday through Friday? Yes.	克：到那时…… 安：是的，因此我勒紧裤带，在星期六和星期天去支付我天国的保险单，就在你提到的周末的那两天。如果你在星期一到星期五被抓住了怎么办？是的。
56:05	K: So, pleasure, enjoyment, and joy. You follow, sir? There are three things involved. A: Three things.	克：因此，欢愉，欢乐和喜悦。你明白吗，先生？这里涉及到三样东西。安：三样东西。
56:20	K: Pleasure. A: Pleasure.	克：欢愉。安：欢愉。
56:22	K: Enjoyment and joy. A: Joy.	克：欢乐和喜悦。安：喜悦。
56:25	K: Happiness. You see, joy is happiness, ecstasy, the delight, the sense of tremendous enjoyment. And what is the relationship of pleasure to enjoyment and to joy and happiness?	克：幸福。你瞧，喜悦即是幸福，狂喜，欣喜，极大的喜悦感。那么欢愉和欢乐、喜悦、幸福之间的关系是怎样的呢？
56:46	A: Yes, we have been moving a long way from fear.	安：是啊，我们已经从恐惧出发走出了一大段路。
56:51	K: Fear, that's right.	克：恐惧，没错。
56:52	A: Yes, but I don't mean moving away...	安：是的，但我并不是说离开了那个问题
56:55	K: No, no. A: ...by turning our back on it.	克：不是，不是。安：……通过背过身去来离开它。
56:56	K: No, we have gone into it, we see the movement from that to this, it's not away from it. Pleasure. There is a delight in seeing something very beautiful. Delight. If you are at all sensitive, if you are at all observant, if there is a feeling of relationship to nature, which very few people unfortunately have, they stimulate it, but the actual relationship to nature, that is, when you see something really marvellously beautiful, like a mountain with all its shadows, valleys, and the line, you know, it's something - a tremendous delight. Now see what happens: at that moment there is nothing but that. That is, beauty, of the mountain, lake, or the single tree on a hill, that beauty has knocked everything out of me.	克：不，我们已经探讨过了，我们看到了由此及彼的这个过程，这并不是背离它。欢愉。当看到某样非常漂亮的东西时我们会感到一种欣喜。欣喜。如果你真的敏锐，如果你真的注意观察，如果你感受到了与自然之间的联系，很不幸只有极少数人拥有这种感受，他们激发它，但是与自然的真正关系，那就是，当你看到某样真的极其美丽的东西，就像有着所有的阴影、山谷和线条的一座山岳，你知道的，那是——一种极大的欣喜。现在来看看发生了什么：在那一刻除了它什么也没有。也就是，那山岳、湖泊的美，那小丘上孤树的美，那种美驱除了我心中的一切。
58:18	A: Oh yes.	安：噢，是的。
58:19	K: And at that moment there is no division between me and that. There is sense of great purity and enjoyment.	克：在那一刻我与它之间没有任何间隔，只有一种非凡的纯净和喜悦。
58:33	A: Exactly, exactly.	安：正是，正是这样。
58:36	K: See what takes place.	克：看看发生了什么。
58:39	A: I see we've reached a point where we are going to take a new step, I feel it coming on. It's amazing how this thing has moved so inevitably but not unjoyfully. Not unjoyfully. In our next conversation I would just love to pursue this.	安：我发现我们来到了一个点上，从这里我们将迈出新的一步，我感觉它已经到来了。这真令人惊讶，这件事是如此不可阻挡地往前推进，但又没有让人觉得不愉快。没有让人觉得不愉快。我很希望我们下次谈话能继续探讨这一问题。