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SD74CA8 - 欢愉会带来幸福吗？
与艾伦·W·安德森博士的第八次对话
美国，加利福尼亚，圣地亚哥
1974年2月21日



0:38 Krishnamurti in Dialogue with Dr. Allan W. Anderson 克里希那穆提与艾伦·W·安德森博士的对话
0:43 J. Krishnamurti was born in South India and educated in England. For the past 40 years he has been speaking in the United States, Europe, India, Australia, and other parts of the world. From the outset of his life's work he repudiated all connections with organised religions and ideologies and said that his only concern was to set man absolutely unconditionally free. He is the author of many books, among them The Awakening of Intelligence, The Urgency of Change, Freedom From the Known, and The Flight of the Eagle. This is one of a series of dialogues between Krishnamurti and Dr. Allan W. Anderson, who is professor of religious studies at San Diego State University where he teaches Indian and Chinese scriptures and the oracular tradition. Dr. Anderson, a published poet, received his degree from Columbia University and the Union Theological Seminary. He has been honoured with the distinguished Teaching Award from the California State University. J·克里希那穆提出生在南印度， 并且在英国接受教育。 在过去的40年间 他在美国 欧洲、印度、澳大利亚以及世界其他很多地方做过演讲。 从他毕生事业的一开始， 他就断绝了 与有组织的宗教和意识形态的所有关系， 并且宣称他唯一关心的是 让人获得绝对的、无条件的自由。 他著有多本著作， 包括像《智慧的觉醒》、 《转变的紧迫性》、《从已知中解脱》 及《鹰的翱翔》等等。 这是克里希那穆提与艾伦·W·安德森博士的 系列对话之一。 安德森博士是研究宗教学的教授 目前任教于美国圣地亚哥州立大学， 他教授印度和中国的古代经典 以及传统的神谕文化。 安德森博士，是一位有诗作出版的诗人， 他在哥伦比亚大学 和纽约协和神学院获得了学位。 他曾经获得加利福尼亚州立大学颁发的 杰出教学奖。
1:51 A: Mr. Krishnamurti, I was wonderfully overjoyed in our last conversation - for myself, just as one who was trying and listening to you - to learn something of this inwardness, to follow along the passage that we had made from fear through the points as we moved, until we came to pleasure. And as we left off we were still talking of pleasure, and I hope we can begin now to move along. 安：克里希那穆提先生，我非常高兴 我们在上一次谈话中——对我而言， 就像是一个尝试理解并聆听你的人—— 去了解这种内心的特性， 我们从恐惧出发一路探索下来， 在探讨了很多个点之后，我们讲到了欢愉。 我们上次结束时仍在讨论欢愉， 所以我希望我们可以接着这一点往下说。
2:36 K: Yes, we were saying, sir, pleasure, enjoyment, delight, and joy and happiness, and what relationship has pleasure with enjoyment and with joy and with happiness? Is pleasure happiness? Is pleasure joy? Is pleasure enjoyment? Or is pleasure something entirely different from those two? 克：是的，先生，我们是说到了欢愉， 欢乐、欣喜、 喜悦以及幸福， 那么，欢愉和欢乐的关系是怎样的， 它和喜悦、幸福是什么关系？ 欢愉是幸福吗？ 欢愉是喜悦吗？ 欢愉是欢乐吗？ 或者欢愉是某种与这两者完全不同的东西？
3:19 A: In English we think we make a distinction between pleasure and joy without necessarily knowing what we mean. But in our use, in our employment of the words, we will discriminate sometimes, we think it odd to use the word 'pleasure' rather than 'joy' when we think that 'joy' is appropriate. The relation between the word 'please' and 'pleasure' interests me very much. We will say to a person, 'Please sit down'. And usually that will be thought of as... 安：在英语中我们认为， 在欢愉和喜悦两个词之间进行区分 并不需要知道我们所说的意思是什么。 但在我们对这些词的使用中， 我们有时要将它们区别开来， 即当我们认为“喜悦”一词更合适， 却使用了“欢愉”一词时， 我们会觉得非常古怪。 “请”（please）一词与 “欢愉”（pleasure）一词之间的关系我非常感兴趣。 我们会对一个人说，“请坐”。 这经常会被认为
3:59 K: Have the pleasure to sit down.

A: Yes. It's not a request.

K: Please yourself to sit down. 		克：愉快地坐下。

安：是的。 这不是一个要求。

克：坐下会让你高兴。
4:03 A: It's an invitation, not a request.

K: Not - quite. 		安：这是一个邀请，而不是要求。

克：没错。
4:06 A: Be pleased to sit down.

K: Be pleased to sit down. 		安：愉快地坐下。

克：愉快地坐下。
4:10 A: It's be pleased to be seated. 安：坐下会很高兴。
4:14 K: Yes. In Italian, French, so on.

A: Right. So within pleasure itself, the word 'pleasure'... there's the intimation of joy, intimation that is not strictly reduced to the word. 		克：是的。在意大利语、法语等等中都是这样。

安：是的。 所以欢愉本身，“欢愉”这个词本身 就隐含了喜悦， 这一含义并不严格地局限于这个词。
4:34 K: I would like to question whether pleasure has any relationship with joy. 克：我想质疑的是欢愉 和喜悦是不是有任何关系。
4:45 A: Not in itself, I take it you mean. 安：本身没什么关系，我认为你是这个意思。
4:47 K: Or even beyond the word. Is there a line or a continuity of pleasure to joy? Is there a connecting link? Because, what is pleasure? I take pleasure in eating, I take pleasure in walking. I take pleasure in accumulating money. I take pleasure in - I don't know, a dozen things - sex, hurting people, sadistic instincts, violence. They are all forms of a pleasure. I enjoy - I won't use the word 'enjoy' - I take pleasure in and pursue that pleasure. One wants to hurt people. And that gives great pleasure. One wants to have power. It doesn't matter, over the cook, or over the wife, or of a thousand people, it is the same. The pleasure in something, which is sustained, nourished, kept going. This pleasure, when it's thwarted, becomes violence, anger, jealousy, fury, wanting to break, all kinds of neurotic activities, and so on, so on, so on. So what is pleasure and what is it that keeps it going? What is the pursuit of it, the constant direction of it? 克：甚或在词语之外两者是否有关系。 从欢愉到喜悦是否有某种联系或者连贯性？ 它们有联系吗？ 因为，欢愉是什么？ 我喜欢吃，我喜欢散步。 我喜欢攒钱。 我喜欢——我不知道，有一大堆事情—— 性、伤害他人、 虐待狂的本能、暴力。 它们都是欢愉的种种形式。 我享受——我不会用“享受”这个词—— 我喜欢某样东西， 于是我追求那种欢愉。 人想要伤害他人， 这给他很大的快乐。 人想拥有权力。 不管是凌驾于厨子之上，或者凌驾于妻子之上， 或者居于一千人之上，都是一样的。 在某样事物中得到的欢愉，它就这样被维系、 滋养、继续保持着。 这种欢愉，当它遭到挫折，就会变成暴力、 愤怒、嫉妒、狂暴，想要破坏， 总之各种各样神经质的活动，等等，诸如此类。 那么什么是欢愉？是什么 在维持它继续下去？ 什么是对它的追逐，它一贯的方向是什么？
6:59 A: I think something in our first conversation is intimated here when we talked about the built-in necessity that one observes in a progress that is never consummated. It's just nothing but a termination and then a new start. But no consummation at all, no totality, no fulfilment - feeling full is what I mean by that. 安：我认为 我们第一次谈话的某些内容 在这里得到了暗示，当时我们说到了 我们所观察到的 在永远都完成不了的进步中所隐含的那种内在固有的迫切性。 只需一个结束然后就会有新的开始。 而根本不是完成，不是全部， 也不是成就——我说的成就指一种满足感。
7:51 K: Yes, I understand, sir, but what is it that's called pleasure? I see something, something which I enjoy, and I want it. Pleasure. Pleasure in possession. Take that simple thing, which the child, the grown up man and the priest, they all have this feeling of pleasure in possession. A toy, or a house, or possessing knowledge, or possessing the idea of God, or the pleasure the dictators have, the totalitarian brutalities. The pleasure. What is that pleasure? To make it very, very simple: what is that pleasure? Look, sir, what happens: there is a single tree on the hill, green meadow, deer, and there is the single tree standing on the hill. You see that and you say, 'How marvellous'. Not verbally - merely you say, 'How marvellous' to communicate to somebody. But when you are by yourself and see that, it is really astonishingly beautiful. The whole movement of the earth, the flowers, the deer, the meadows, the water and the single tree, with the shadow. You see that. And it's almost breathtaking. And you turn away and go away. Then thought says, 'How extraordinary that was'. 克：是的，我明白，先生， 但什么是所谓的欢愉呢？ 我看见了某样东西，我很喜欢它，我想拥有它。 欢愉。占有的欢愉。 以这件简单的事为例， 孩子、成年人，以及牧师， 他们都有这种占有的快感。 占有一个玩具、一所房子，或者占有知识， 抱有上帝的概念， 或者独裁者的快感， 还有那些极权主义的暴行。 欢愉。 那种欢愉是什么呢？ 非常简单地来说：这种欢愉是什么？ 先生，看看发生了什么： 小山上有一棵孤树， 有绿色的草地、鹿， 有那么一棵孤独的树站在山上。 你看到了这一切，然后说：“真是不可思议啊”。 不是口头上说——你说“太不可思议了” 只是为了与某个人沟通。 但当你一个人时你看到了这一切， 它真的是令人惊讶的美。 大地的整个运动， 那些花、鹿、草地、 流水，以及这棵孤独的树和它的阴影。 你目睹了这一切， 它让你屏息凝视。 然后你转身离开。 此时思想说：“这一切是多么非凡啊”。
9:59 A: Compared with what now is.

K: How extraordinary. I must have it again. I must get that same feeling which I had then for two seconds or five minutes. So thought - see what has taken place - there was immediate response to that beauty, non-verbal, non-emotional, non-sentimental, non-romantic, then thought comes along and says, 'How extraordinary, what a delight that was'. And then the memory of it, the repetition, the demand, the desire for the repetition. 		安：与现在的状况相比。

克：多么非凡啊。 我一定要再次拥有它。 我一定要得到同样的感觉，那种我曾经拥有过的 两三秒或五分钟的感觉。 所以思想——看看发生了什么—— 先是有对那种美的即刻的反应， 非语言、非情绪、非伤感、非浪漫的反应， 然后思想出现并且说： “这一切是多么非凡啊，真是让人欣喜”。 接着就有了对它的回忆、重复、渴求， 想要重复它的欲望。
10:55 A: When we go to performances this happens with what we call the 'encore', doesn't it?

K: Of course, encore... 		安：当我们去看演出时 也会有“要求返场”的情况， 不是吗？

克：当然，要求返场
11:02 A: And with encores there's a creeping embarrassment. Because with the first reappearance this is a sign of adulation, praise, and everybody is happy. But then, of course, there's the problem of how many more encores can be made, maybe the last encore is a signal that we are fed up now. We don't want any more.

K: Quite, quite. 		安：随着返场会悄悄出现一种尴尬。 因为在第一次返场中 会有很多奉承、赞美， 每个人都很高兴。 但接下来，当然就会出现一个问题： 究竟该有多少次返场， 也许上一次返场就是一个我们已经厌倦了的信号。 我们不想再要了。

克：没错，正是这样。
11:25 A: Yes, yes, I understand. I think I am following you. 安：是的，是的，我明白。我认为我明白了你的意思。
11:29 K: So thought gives nourishment, sustains it and gives a direction to pleasure. There was no pleasure at the moment of perception of that tree, the hill, the shadows, the deer, the water, the meadow. The whole thing was astonishing, there was real non-verbal, non-romantic perception. It has nothing to do with me or you - it was there. Then thought comes along and... memory of it, the continuing of that memory tomorrow, and the demand for that, and the pursuit of that. And when I come back to it tomorrow it is not the same. I feel a little bit shocked. I say, 'I was inspired, now I must find a means of getting again inspired', therefore I take a drink, women, this or that. You follow?

A: Oh yes, yes, yes. Do you think, in the history of culture the establishment of festivals would be related to what you say?

K: Of course, of course. It's the whole thing, sir. 		克：所以思想 滋养并维持了欢愉， 并且给它一个方向。 当我们感知到 这棵树、这座小山、这些阴影、鹿、 水流、草地时，不会有欢愉。 这整件事让人觉得惊奇，真的有那种 超出语言、超出浪漫的感知。 不需要你我做什么——它就在那儿。 然后思想出现了，接着记住了它， 那记忆持续到了明天、后天， 还有对它的渴求，对它的追逐。 当我第二天回去看它时它已经不一样了。 我感到有些震惊。 我说：“我受到了启迪， 现在我必须找到一种方式再次受到启迪”， 因此我去喝酒，找女人，这样那样。 你明白吗？

安：哦，是的，是的，我明白。 你是否觉得在文化的历史中 那些节日的确立 和你所说的密切相关？

克：是的，当然。 事情就是这样，先生。
13:05 A: We live for... well, in English we have this saying, to 'live it up'. The rest of the time we are living it down. 安：我们为了 瞧，在英语中我们有“及时行乐”这个说法。 余下的日子我们就浑浑噩噩。
13:16 K: Down, yes. Mardi Gras, the whole business of it. So there it is. I see that. See what takes place, sir. Pleasure is sustained by thought, sexual pleasure, the image, the thinking over it - all that - and the repetition of it. And the pleasure of it, and go on, keep on - routine. Now, what is the place of pleasure, or relationship, to the delight of the moment? Not even the delight, it is something inexpressible. So is there any relationship between pleasure and enjoyment? Enjoyment becomes pleasure when thought says, 'I have enjoyed it, I must have more of it'. 克：浑浑噩噩下去，是的。狂欢节，所有这些事情。 就是这样。我知道。看看发生了什么，先生。 欢愉依靠思想维持， 性快感， 意象、对它的思考——所有这些—— 还有对它的重复。 它的欢愉，继续、继续——一切照此进行。 那么，欢愉或者关系 对于此刻的欣喜来说有着什么地位呢？ 甚至不是欣喜，那是某种难以言表的东西。 那么，欢愉和喜悦之间有什么关联吗？ 当思想说：“我曾经享受过它， 我必须得到更多”，喜悦就变为了欢愉。
14:34 A: It's actually a falling out of joy. 安：事实上那是从喜悦中脱离了出来。
14:38 K: Yes. That's it, you see, sir... So pleasure has no relationship to ecstasy, to delight, to enjoyment, or to joy and happiness. Because pleasure is the movement of thought in direction. It doesn't matter what direction, but in a direction. The others have no direction. Pleasure and enjoyment - you enjoy! Joy is something you cannot invite. Happiness you cannot invite. It happens, and you don't know if you are happy at that moment. It is only the next moment you say, 'How marvellous that was'. So, see what takes place: can the mind, the brain, register the beauty of that hill, and tree, and the water, and the meadows, and end it? Not say, 'I want it again'. 克：是的，是这样，你瞧，先生 因此欢愉和 狂喜、欣喜、欢乐、喜悦和幸福之间没有什么关系。 因为欢愉是是有方向的思想运动。 不管是哪个方向，但总有一个方向， 而其他的则没有方向。 欢愉和享受——你喜欢它！ 喜悦是你不能约请的东西。 幸福你无法约请。 它发生了，而你却不知道此刻你是幸福的。 只有在下一刻你才说：“这一切真是不可思议啊”。 因此，看看都发生了什么：心灵、大脑， 能不能记录下小山的美，树的美， 记录下水和草地的美， 然后结束这些？ 不说：“我想再有一次”。
15:57 A: Yes. What you've just said now would take us back to that word 'negation' that we spoke of before, because there has to be a moment, when we are about to fall out, and what you are saying is: the moment that 'about to fall out' appears something must be done. 安：是的。你刚才说的 把我们带回到“否定”这个词， 我们以前曾经讨论过的， 因为必定会有 我们将要脱离的那一刻，而照你的说法是： 这一“将要脱离”的时刻出现时， 一定要有所行动。
16:29 K: You will see it in a minute, sir, you will see what an extraordinary thing takes place. I see pleasure, enjoyment, joy and happiness, I see pleasure as not related to any of that, the other two, joy and enjoyment. So thought gives direction and sustains pleasure. Right? Now, the mind asks: can there be non-interference of thought, non-interference of thought in pleasure? I enjoy. Why should thought come into it at all? 克：你马上就会看到的，先生， 你会看到一件多么惊人的事情发生了。 我发现欢愉、欢乐、喜悦和幸福， 我发现欢愉和它们任何一个，也就是另外的两个， 喜悦和欢乐都毫无关系。 因此是思想给欢愉以方向并维持它。 对吧？现在，心灵问道： 是否可以排除思想的干扰， 欢愉可否没有思想的干扰？ 我欣赏它。 究竟为什么要让思想跑进来呢？

安：没有什么原因。

克：但思想就是介入了。
17:24 A: There's no reason at all.

K: But it does. 		安：是的，没错。

克：所以，
17:26 A: It does, it does.

K: Therefore, now the question arises: how is the mind, the brain, to stop thought entering into that enjoyment? You follow?

A: Yes. 		此时问题产生了：心灵、大脑怎样 阻止思想进入此时的喜悦中？ 你明白吗？

安：是的。

克：不去干扰。
17:41 K: Not to interfere. Therefore, they said - the ancients and the religious - 'Control thought'. You follow? Don't let it creep in. Therefore control it. 因此，他们说——古人以及宗教人士说——“控制思想”。 你明白吗？不要让它悄悄溜进来。 因此去控制它。

安：一旦它露出一点苗头，消灭掉它！
18:03 A: The minute it raises its ugly head, whack it off! It's like a hydra.

K: It keeps on growing. Now, is it possible to enjoy, to take a delight in that lovely scene and no thought creep in? Is this possible? I'll show you, it is possible, completely possible, if you are attentive at that moment, completely attentive. You follow, sir? 		它好比是条九头蛇。

克：它不断地生长。 那么， 有没有可能去欣赏， 对这美丽的景色感到欣喜 而没有思想潜入？这可能吗？ 我会展示给你看，这是可能的，完全可能， 如果你这一刻留心关注，全神贯注的话。 你明白吗，先生？

安：那跟让自己紧张起来，
18:47 A: Which has nothing to do with screwing oneself up, with muscular effort to focus in there. 从身体上去使劲去专注一点儿关系都没有。

克：没错。只是完完全全地待在那儿。
18:52 K: Right. Just be wholly there. When you see the sunset, see it completely! When you see a beautiful line of a car, see it. And don't let this thought begin. That means at that moment be supremely attentive, completely, with your mind, with your body, with your nerves, with your eyes, ears, everything attentive! Then thought doesn't come into it at all. So pleasure is related to thought, and thought in itself brings about fragmentation: pleasure and not pleasure. Therefore now that I haven't pleasure, I must pursue pleasure. 当你观看日落，完完全全地看到它！ 当你看到一辆小汽车优美的曲线，看着它。 不要让思想出现。 这意味着在那一刻 极其关注，全神贯注， 用你的心，你的身体， 你的神经，你的眼睛、耳朵，每一样感官去关注！ 此时思想就根本不会出现了。 所以欢愉和思想有关， 而思想本身带来了分裂： 欢愉或者不是欢愉。 所以，既然我没有得到欢愉，我就必须追求欢愉。

安：它做了一个判断。

克：是的，判断。
19:56 A: It makes a judgement.

K: Judgement. And the feeling of frustration, anger, violence - you follow?- all that come into... when there is the denial of pleasure, which is what the religious people have done. They are very violent people. They have said, no pleasure. 		于是挫折、愤怒、暴力的感觉 ——你明白吗？——所有这些都接踵而至……一旦有了对欢愉的拒绝， 而这正是那些宗教人士所做的。 他们是非常暴力的人。 他们说了，不要欢愉。

安：这是很有讽刺意味的。
20:28 A: The irony of this is overwhelming. In classical thought you have that marvellous monument, the works of St. Thomas Aquinas, who never tired of saying in his examination of thought and the recognition of the judgement, that one must distinguish in order to unite. And his motive was very different from what seems to have been read. Because we managed to distinguish, but we never see the thing whole and get to the uniting, so the uniting just vanishes; it's terrible.

K: That's the whole point, sir. So unless the mind understands the nature of thinking, really very, very, very deeply, mere control means nothing. Personally, I have never controlled a thing. This may sound rather absurd, but it is a fact. 		在古典思想中你可以看到大量这样的论述， 在圣托马斯·阿奎那的那些著作中， 他不厌其烦地描述他对思想的审查 和对判断的识别， 即为了统合一个人必须去分辨。 但他的动机 与人们所读到的东西看起来很不一致。 因为我们努力去分辨， 但我们从来不把事情看作一个整体， 也从未曾真正到达合一，因此这个合一就消失了。 这是很糟糕的。

克：正是这样的，先生。 所以除非心灵了解了思想的本质， 真的非常非常深刻地理解， 否则仅仅去控制毫无意义。 就我个人而言，我从来没有控制过任何事。 这也许听起来很荒谬，但这是事实。

安：真不可思议。

克：从来没有。
21:48 A: Marvellous.

K: Never. But I've watched it. The watching is its own discipline and its own action. Discipline in the sense: not conformity, not suppression, not adjusting yourself to a pattern, but the sense of correctness, the sense of excellence. When you see something, why should you control? Why should you control, when you see a poisonous bottle on the shelf? You don't control. You say, quite right, you don't drink. You don't touch it. It's only when I don't read the sign properly, when I see it and when I think it is a sweet, then I take it. But if I read the label, if I know what it is I won't touch it. There's no control. 		但我观察了它。 这观察就是它自身的纪律和它自身的行动。 这样一种意义上的纪律：不是遵从，不是抑制， 不是要调整你自己适应一个模式， 而是一种正确感， 一种卓越感。 当你看到某样东西，你为什么要控制？ 你为什么要控制？ 当你看到架子上的一瓶毒药时， 你不会控制的。 你说，没错，你不会喝。你不会去碰它。 只有当我不能正确识别这上面的标签时， 当我看见它我以为那是糖时， 我就会去拿。 但是如果我读了它上面的标签， 如果我知道它是什么，我就不会碰它了。 这里没有控制。

安：当然没有。这是不言而喻的。
22:56 A: Of course, not. It's self-evident. I'm thinking of that wonderful story in the Gospel about Peter, who in the storm gets out to walk on the water, because he sees his Lord coming on the water, and he's invited to walk on the water. And he actually makes it a few steps, and then it says he loses faith. But it seems to me that one could see that in terms of what you've been saying, at the point where thought took over, he started going down. That was the time when he started going down. But he was actually... The reason that I am referring to that is because I sense in what you are saying that there is something that supports, there is a support, - that is not a support that's fragmented from something else - but there is an abiding something which must be sustaining the person. 我想起 《福音书》中关于彼得的一个精彩的故事， 那时他在暴风雨中来到外面要往水上走， 因为他看到耶稣正从水面上走过来， 耶稣请他也在水面上走。 事实上，他走了几步， 然后据说他失去了信心。 但在我看来我们可以看到 按照你之前所说的， 在思想开始掌控的那一刻， 他开始下沉。 就在这一刻他开始下沉。 但事实上他 我提及此事的原因 是因为我感到你所说的话里 有某种支撑的东西，有某种支撑， ——它不是一个从别的东西里面分裂出来的支撑—— 而是有某种持久的东西 在支持着这个人。

克：我不会那样说，先生。
24:15 K: I wouldn't put it that way, sir. That is, that leaves a door open, that opens a door to the idea: 'in you there is God'. 也就是说，那敞开了一扇门，那为“上帝就在你心中”的概念 打开了一扇门。

安：是的，是的，我看到了这个陷阱。
24:30 A: Yes, yes, I see the trap. 克：在你内心有一个更高的自我，
24:32 K: In you there is the higher self, in you there is the Atman, the permanent. 有阿特曼、有永恒。

安：也许我们不该说这些。
24:41 A: Maybe we shouldn't say anything about that. 克：是这样的。
24:44 K: That's it. No, we can say this: to see... - look what we have done, sir, this morning - to see appetite, desire, to see the implication, the structure of pleasure, and there is no relation to enjoyment and to joy, to see all that, to see it, not verbally, but actually, through observation, through attention, through care, through very careful seeing, that brings an extraordinary quality of intelligence. After all intelligence is sensitivity. To be utterly sensitive, in seeing! If you call that intelligence 'the higher self' or whatever, it has no meaning. You follow? 不，我们可以这样说：去看 ——看看我们都做了些什么，先生，今天早晨—— 去看看我们的食欲、欲望， 去看看欢愉的含义和结构， 欢愉和欢乐、喜悦没有什么关系， 看到这一切，看到，不是在口头上，而是真正地看到， 通过观察，通过关注，通过关心， 通过非常仔细地看， 这带来了一种非凡的智慧。 毕竟智慧就是敏感。 极其敏锐地去看！ 如果你把这种智慧称为“更高的自我”或者其他什么， 这没有任何意义。你明白吗？

安：你好像是在说，
25:46 A: It's as though you are saying, at that instant it's released.

K: Yes. That intelligence comes in observation. 		在那一瞬间它被释放出来了。

克：是的。 那智慧出现在观察中。

安：是的。
25:59 A: Yes. 克：而那智慧时时刻刻都在运行，如果你允许的话。
26:00 K: And that intelligence is operating all the time, if you allow it. Not if you allow it; if you are seeing. I mean, I see, I have seen all my life people who have controlled, people who have denied, people who have negated, and who have sacrificed, who have controlled, suppressed, furiously, disciplined themselves, tortured themselves. And I say, for what? For God? For truth? A mind that has made tortured, crooked, brutalised, such a mind can see truth? Certainly not. You need a completely healthy mind, a mind that is whole, a mind that is holy in itself. Otherwise you can't see something holy, unless the mind is sacred, you cannot see what is sacred. So, I say, sorry, I won't touch any of that. It has no meaning. So, I don't know how this happened but I never, for a second, controled myself. I don't know what it means. 不是你允许，而是如果你在看的话。 我的意思是，我看到，我这一生不停地见到 那些控制的人，那些拒绝的人， 那些否定的人、牺牲的人， 那些控制、压抑、狂暴地 约束自己、虐待自己的人们。 我说，这样做是为了什么呢？ 为了上帝吗？为了真理吗？ 这个饱受虐待、被扭曲、被残忍对待的心灵， 这样的心灵可能看到真理吗？当然不能。 你需要一个完全健康的心灵， 一颗完整的心灵，本身就很圣洁的心灵。 否则，你不可能看到任何圣洁的东西， 除非心灵是神圣的，否则你不可能看到任何神圣的东西。 因此，我说，抱歉，我不会去碰那些东西。它们一点意义也没有。 所以，尽管我不知道这是如何发生的， 但我从来没有，哪怕一秒钟都没有控制过我自己。 我不知道控制是什么意思。

安：但是，令人惊讶的是你却知道它对其他人而言是什么。
27:35 A: And yet, amazingly, you know what it is in others. 克：噢，很显然，你可以看到。
27:40 K: Oh, obviously, you can see it. 安：因此这是某种你可以看到而不需要
27:44 A: So this is something that you are able to see without having... 克：……经历过它。

安：没有经历过它。
27:49 K: ...gone through it.

A: Without having gone through it. Now, this to me is profoundly mysterious. I don't mean in the sense of mystification.

K: No, no. 		你瞧，这对我而言是非常神秘的。 我并不是说那种故弄玄虚的神秘。

克：不，不。

安：而是我认为它……非常奇妙。
27:59 A: But I mean it's... I mean miraculous. 克：不，不见得，先生。我来解释给你看，先生。
28:02 K: No, not necessarily, sir. I'll show you something, sir. Must I get drunk in order to find out what it is to be sober? 为了知道什么是清醒我必须要喝醉吗？

安：哦不，不，不需要。
28:12 A: Oh no, no, no. 克：我难道不能看到一个醉酒的人，然后对他说，看在上帝的份上，
28:14 K: Can't I see a man who is drunk, I say, for God's sake, see the whole movement of drunkenness, what lies behind it, what he goes through, see it - finished! 看看这醉酒的整个过程，它后面的原因是什么， 他都经历了什么，看到了——结束了！

安：但对我而言——在我对你的聆听中——
28:27 A: But it seems to me that - in my listening to you - that you are doing more than just observing that someone over there has fallen on his face, therefore... 你不仅仅是看到了有人 摔了个嘴啃泥，所以

克：不，不。

安：是的，
28:36 K: No, no.

A: Right, there's something that is very deep here...

K: Of course. 		这里有某种非常深刻的东西……

克：当然。

安：……至少对我而言是这样，这是你以前说过的。
28:41 A: ...at least to me, that you've said. Control in the very, very deep sense is an activity, not a product, and something that you haven't experienced, that we would call normally intangible is nevertheless acutely present to you. 控制，在其最深层的意义上 是一种活动，而不是结果， 它是某种你未曾经历过的东西， 我们通常把它称为不可触摸的东西， 但却如此清晰地呈现在了你面前。

克：是的，是的。
29:05 K: Yes, yes. 安：所以我认为你之前所说的意思是
29:06 A: And I take it that what you've said is that intelligence reveals that. Intelligence, if intelligence is allowed to reveal it. 是智慧把这些揭示了出来。 是智慧，如果允许智慧去揭示它的话。

克：先生，我认为这不是允许。
29:16 K: I think, sir, not allowed. That's a danger - to allow intelligence to operate. Which means you have intelligence, then you allow it. 这是很危险的——允许智慧去运转。 这意味着你拥有智慧，然后你允许它这样做。

安：是的，我看到了这个结构的陷阱。
29:27 A: Yes, I see the trap of that construction. Yes, yes, I see what you mean. Yes, because now we've got an observer who's got a new gimmick. Yes, I see what you mean. Please go on, please. 是的，是的，我明白你的意思。 是的，因为现在我们有了一个观察者， 他有了新的花招。 是的，我明白你的意思。请继续。

克：所以，你瞧，这就是为什么纪律
29:42 K: So, you see, that's why discipline has a different meaning. When you understand pleasure, when you understand its relationship to enjoyment and to the joy, and happiness, and the beauty of happiness, beauty of joy, and so on, then you understand the utter necessity of a different kind of discipline that comes naturally. After all, sir, look, the word 'discipline' in itself means to learn. To learn, not to conform, not to, say, I must discipline myself to be like that, or not to be like that. The word 'discipline', as we both see, is to learn. To learn means I must be capable of hearing, of seeing, which means the capacity which is not cultivable. You can cultivate a capacity, but that is not the same as the act of listening. I don't know if I'm... 有一种完全不同的含义。 当你理解了欢愉， 当你了解了它与 欢乐、喜悦的关系， 与幸福、幸福之美 和喜悦之美等等的关系， 然后你就会知道极度需要 一种自然到来的不同的纪律。 毕竟，你瞧，先生， “纪律”这个词本身意味着学习。 去学习，而不是去遵从， 不是说，我必须训练我自己像什么样， 或者不像什么样。 “纪律”这个词，我们都看到了，它指的是学习。 学习就意味着我必须能够聆听， 能够观察， 而这是一种无法培养的能力。 你可以培养一种能力， 但那和聆听的行动完全不同。 我不知道我是否说清楚了

安：哦，是的，你说清楚了。是的，很清楚。
31:19 A: Oh yes, you are. Yes, you are. Yes, I follow, very clear, very clear. 是的，我明白，很清楚，非常清楚。

克：学习的能力需要一种纪律。
31:25 K: The capacity to learn demands a certain discipline. I must concentrate, I must give my time to it, I must set aside my efforts in a certain direction, and all that. That is, developing a certain capacity needs time. 我必须十分专注，必须花费时间， 我必须抽出时间 在某个方向上去努力，等等所有这些。 也就是说，发展某一种能力需要时间。

安：是的。
31:53 A: Yes. 克：但觉察和时间毫无关系！
31:56 K: But perception has nothing to do with time! You see and act! As you do when you see a danger. You act instantly. You act instantly because you are so conditioned to danger. 你看到它，然后行动！ 就好比你遇上危险时的反应一样。 你立刻就会行动。 你马上就有行动， 因为你是如此受制于危险。

安：正是这样。
32:17 A: Exactly. 克：这种制约不是智慧。
32:18 K: That conditioning is not intelligence. You are just conditioned. You see a snake and you recoil, and you run away. You see a dangerous animal and you run. That's all self-protective conditioned responses. That's very simple. But perception-and-action is not conditioned. 你只是受到了制约。 你看到一条蛇你就马上往后退，立刻跑开。 你看到一个危险的动物然后赶快跑开。 这都是自我保护的本能反应。 这是很简单的。 但“觉察并行动”并不是一种制约。

安：你知道，在我们英语的历史上
32:43 A: You know, we have in the history of the English language turned that word 'fear' upside down in terms of its derivation because, if I remember correctly, 'fear' comes from the Anglo-Saxon word that means danger. That means danger.

K: Danger, of course. 		我们曾把“恐惧”一词的意思颠倒了， 变成了它派生的含义，因为 如果我没记错，“恐惧”一词 来自于盎格鲁——撒克逊语言中一个表示危险的词。 它的意思是危险。

克：危险，当然。

安：而现在我们把这个词心理化了，
33:01 A: And now we've psychologised that word, and now a fear means rather my emotional response to the danger and not what I ought to be doing. 现在恐惧意味着我对危险 的情绪反应，而不是我应该做什么。

克：是的，没有意识到恐惧的危险
33:10 K: Yes, not aware of the danger of fear - you follow?

A: Yes. 		——你明白吗？

安：是的。

克：这即是说，先生，你瞧：
33:18 K: That means, sir, look: ordinary human beings are conditioned - now as they are - by the culture, by the civilisation they are living in. They accept nationalism, - I'm taking that for example - they accept nationalism, the flag, the nationalism, and all the rest of it; nationalism is one of the causes of war. 平常的人们受制于 ——就像他们现在这样—— 他们的文化，他们生活于其中的文明。 他们接受国家主义，——我用它举个例子—— 他们接受国家主义， 旗帜、国家主义，所有诸如此类的东西， 而国家主义是导致战争的因素之一。

安：哦，是的，是的，毫无疑问。
33:44 A: Oh yes, yes, indubitably. 克：爱国主义，等等诸如此类。
33:49 K: As patriotism, all the rest of it. Now, we don't see the danger of nationalism, because we are conditioned to nationalism as being secure, security. 现在，我们看不到国家主义的危险， 因为我们受制于 国家主义，认为它是安全、保障。

安：但我们确实看到了对敌人的恐惧。
34:05 A: But we do see our fear of the enemy. 克：当然。

安：是的，是这样。
34:08 K: Of course.

A: Yes, right. And contemplating that fear of the enemy dulls our capacity to deal with the danger.

K: Danger. So fear, pleasure, and discipline. You follow, sir? Discipline means to learn, I am learning about pleasure, mind is learning about pleasure. Learning brings its own order. 		思考对敌人的恐惧使我们 处理危险的能力变迟钝了。

克：危险。 还有恐惧、欢愉、纪律。你明白吗，先生？ 纪律意味着学习， 我在了解欢愉， 心灵在了解欢愉。 学习会带来它本身的秩序。

安：它本身的。

克：本身的秩序。

安：是的。
34:38 A: Its own.

K: It's own order.

A: Yes. That's what I've been calling 'miracle'. It just asks you to jolly well leave it alone. 		这就是我一直说的“奇迹”。 它就是让你最好别管它。

克：它带来它自身的秩序，
34:51 K: It brings its own order, and that order says, don't be silly, control is out, finished. Now wait a minute. I talked to a monk once. He came to see me. He had a great many followers. And he was very well known - he is still very well known. And he said, 'I have taught my disciples', and he was very proud of having thousands of disciples. You follow? And it seemed rather absurd for a guru to be proud. 这一秩序说： 别犯傻，控制出局了，结束了。 这里稍微等一下。我曾经和一个僧人交谈。 他来见我。他有很多追随者。 他非常有名——直到现在仍是这样。 他说：“我教导我的门徒”， 他很自豪拥有成千上万的门徒。 你明白吗？ 一个古鲁感觉很骄傲，这看起来真的相当荒谬。

安：他是个成功的人。

克：他很成功。
35:33 A: He was a success.

K: He was a success. And success means Cadillacs or Rolls Royces, European, American followers - you follow? - all that circus that goes on. 		而成功意味着凯迪拉克，或者劳斯莱斯， 在欧洲、美国都有追随者 ——你明白吗？——上演的所有这些闹剧。

安：他那些骗人的玩意儿。

克：骗人的玩意儿。
35:46 A: His gimmick works.

K: Gimmick works. And he was saying, 'I have arrived because I have learned to control my senses, my body, my thoughts, my desires. I've held them, as the Gita says' - hold something, you are reigning, you are riding a horse, you know, holding them. He went on about it for some length, I said, 'Sir, what, at the end of it? You have controlled. Where are you at the end of it?' He said, 'What are you asking, I have arrived!' Arrived at what? 'I have achieved enlightenment'. Just listen to it, sir. Follow the sequence of a human being who has a direction, which he calls truth. And to achieve that there are the traditional steps, the traditional path, the traditional approach. And he has done it. And therefore he says, 'I have got it. I have got it in my hand. I know what it is'. I said, 'All right, sir'. He began to be very excited about it because he wanted to convince me about being a big man, and all that. So I sat very quietly and listened to him, and he quietened down. And then I said to him - we were sitting by the sea - and I said to him, 'Do you see that sea, sir?' He said, 'Of course'. Can you hold that water in your hand? When you hold that water in your hand, it's no longer the sea. 		他说：“我达成了， 因为我学会了控制我的感官、 我的身体、我的思想、我的欲望。 我控制了它们，就像《薄珈梵歌》里面说的那样” ——控制某样东西，你是在统治，就像骑一匹马， 你知道的，控制它们。 他继续说一会儿这些事， 然后我对他说：“先生，到最后又怎样呢？ 你控制了它们。到最后你又到了哪儿呢？” 他说：“你在问些什么啊，我已经达成了！” 达成了什么？ “我获得了开悟”。 你听听他说的，先生。 追随一个向着某个方向前进的人的脚步， 他称之为真理。 为了获得它，他们有很多传统的步骤， 传统的道路，传统的方法。 他这么做了。 因此他说：“我得到它了。 它就在我的手中。 我知道它是什么”。我说：“好吧，先生”。 他开始对此非常兴奋， 因为他想要说服我 怎样做一个大人物，诸如此类。 于是我非常安静地坐在那儿听他讲， 然后他安静了下来。 这时我对他说 ——我们当时坐在海边——我对他说： “你看到大海了吗，先生？” 他说：“当然看到了”。 你可以将海水握在你手中吗？ 当你将海水捧在手中时， 它就不再是大海了。

安：没错。
37:55 A: Right. 克：他无法理解。
37:58 K: He couldn't make out. I said, 'All right'. And the wind was blowing from the north, slight breeze, cool. And he said, 'There is a breeze'. 'Can you hold all that?' 'No'. 'Can you hold the earth?' 'No'. 'So what are you holding? Words?' You know, sir, he was so angry. He said, 'I won't listen to you anymore. You are an evil man'. And walked out. 我说：“好吧”。 这时候一阵风从北方吹来， 凉爽的微风。 然后他说：“微风来了”。 “你能抓住它吗？”“不能”。 “你能掌握大地吗？”“不能”。 “那么你握着的是什么？文字吗？” 你知道的，先生，他当时很愤怒。 他说：“我不想再听你讲了。 你是个邪恶的人”。然后他就走开了。

安：我在想这真是一个荒谬的讽刺。
38:43 A: I was thinking of the absurd irony of that. All the time he thought he was holding on to himself, and he just let go as he got up and walked away. 他始终认为自己掌控着自己， 而当他站起来走开时，他已经完全不能自已了。

克：所以你明白了吧，先生？这就是我的意思。
38:54 K: So you see, sir? That's what I mean. So learning about pleasure, about fear, really frees you from the tortures of fear and the pursuit of pleasure. So there is a sense of real enjoyment in life. Living then becomes a great joy - you follow, sir? It isn't just a monotonous routine, going to the office, sex, and money. 因此了解欢愉，了解恐惧， 真的会让你从恐惧的折磨和对欢愉的追逐中 解脱出来。 所以在生活中有一种真正的喜悦。 生活于是变成了一种浩瀚的喜悦——你明白吗，先生？ 生活不仅仅是单调乏味的重复， 去办公室，性事，还有金钱。

安：我一直觉得这是个很大的不幸，
39:30 A: I've always thought it's a great misfortune that in that splendid rhetoric of our Declaration of Independence we have that phrase: 'the pursuit of pleasure'. 即在我们《独立宣言》的 华丽修辞中 说：“追求快乐”。

克：追求快乐。

安：因为孩子，那些聪明的孩子他们是接受这些长大的。
39:44 K: Pursuit of pleasure. 克：哦确实，先生。

安：当你非常年轻时
39:45 A: Because the child, the bright child, is reared on that. 你不可能转过身然后说：
39:51 K: Oh rather, sir.

A: And when you are very young you are not about to turn around and say, 'Everybody's daft'.

K: I know, I know. So from this, you see, discipline in the orthodox sense has no place in a mind that's really wanting to learn about truth, not philosophise about truth, not theorise about truth, as you say, tie ribbons round to it, but learn about it. Learn about pleasure. It is really out of that learning comes an extraordinary sense of order - which we were talking the other day. The order which comes with the observation, in oneself, of pleasure. The order. And there is enjoyment. A marvellous sense of ending each enjoyment as you live each moment. You don't carry over the past enjoyment. Then that becomes pleasure. Then it has no meaning. Repetition of pleasure is monotony, is boredom. And they are bored in this country - and other countries. They are fed up with pleasure. But they want other pleasures, in other directions. And that's why there is the proliferation of gurus in this country. Because they all want the circus kept going. So discipline is order. And discipline means to learn about pleasure, enjoyment, joy and the beauty of joy. When you learn - you follow, sir? - it is always new. 		“每个人都是愚蠢的”。

克：我知道，我知道。 因此正是由于这一点，你瞧， 那些正统意义上的纪律 在真正想要了解真理的心中没有一点位置， 不对真理进行哲学研究， 不建立关于真理的理论， 就像你说的，没有给它绑上很多丝带， 而是了解它。 了解欢愉。 正是从这种了解中 才产生了一种非凡的秩序感 ——这是我们前几天讨论的。 这一秩序来自 对一个人自身欢愉的观察。 秩序。生活中有欢乐， 有一种不可思议的感受： 你生命的每一刻，都在终结每一次欢乐。 你不会把过去的欢乐带到现在。 那样的话就会变成欢愉，那样它就没有意义了。 欢愉的重复是总是千篇一律，让人厌烦。 在这个国家，人们已经厌烦了——其他国家也是一样。 人们已经厌倦了欢愉。 但他们还想要其他的欢愉，另一些方面的欢愉。 这就是为什么古鲁会在这个国家如此迅速地增多的原因。 因为他们都希望这出闹剧能够继续下去。 所以说纪律就是秩序。 而纪律意味着了解欢愉、 欢乐、喜悦以及喜悦之美。 当你学习时——你明白吗，先生？——它总是很新鲜的。

安：我刚才在思考
42:15 A: I've just thought - well, thought isn't the right word - something flashed in the communication of what you have been pointing to, - if you don't mind I'd rather say that you've been pointing to than to use the phrase that you've been saying - I hope I've understood you correctly here, because in terms of the communication problem it seems that there's been a profound confusion between perception and practice. ——哦，“思考”这个词不对—— 在交流你刚才指出的东西时， 某样东西闪现了 ——如果你不介意，我宁愿说 “你刚才指出的”，而不是直接用 你原来的说法—— 我希望在这里我对你的理解是正确的，因为 就沟通的问题而言， 似乎有一种很深的困扰 存在于觉察和练习之间。

克：是的。哦，是的。

安：我看到了这一点。
43:05 K: Yes. Oh yes.

A: I have grasped that. It's as though we had the idea that perception is perfected at the end of practice. 		这就好像我们觉得 觉察只能在练习到最后才能变得完善。

克：练习是一种例行公事，是毁灭！
43:17 K: Practice is routine, is death! 安：我们确实是这样想的。

克：我知道。
43:20 A: We do have that idea.

K: I know. 		安：是的。
43:23 A: Yes. 克：你瞧，先生，他们常常说，自由在最后，
43:26 K: You see, sir, they've always said, freedom is at the end, not at the beginning. On the contrary, it's at the beginning! It is the first step that counts, not the last step. So if we understand this whole question of fear and pleasure, joy, the understanding can only come in freedom to observe. And, in the observation, learning and the acting, they are all at the same moment, not learn, then act. It is the doing, the seeing, all taking place at the same time. That is whole. 而不在一开始。 事实恰恰相反，自由就在一开始！ 重要的是第一步，而不是最后一步。 因此如果我们理解了 这整个关于恐惧、欢愉、喜悦的问题， 这一理解只有在自由的观察中才会出现。 并且，在这种观察中，学习和行动， 它们都是同时发生的， 不是先学习，然后再去行动。 而是行动、看到 都是同时发生的。 那才是完整的。

安：所有这些令人惊叹的分词
44:20 A: All these marvellous participles being in the infinite mood in themselves. In themselves. Yes. A little while back it occurred to me that, if we paid attention to our language, as well as to the flowers, and the mountains, and the clouds...

K: Oh yes. 		它们自身就具有无限广大的含义。 它们本身。是的。 这之前的一会儿我想到了 如果我们注意我们的语言， 就像注意这些花、这些山峰、 云朵那样……

克：哦，是的。

安：……语言并不只是单个的词语，
44:49 A: ...the language not only in terms of individual words, but words in context, so that we would refer then to what we call usage, would, through perception, intelligence, disclose themselves completely.

K: Quite. 		而是在具体语境中的词语， 这样我们才会把它们和我们所谓的用法联系起来， 才会通过觉察、智慧， 去完整地揭示它们。

克：正是这样。

安：我们说，
45:12 A: We say, don't we, that one is pleased, one is joyed, but if we ask somebody, 'What have you been doing?' and he said to us, 'I've been pleasing myself', we'd think that was a little odd. We wouldn't think it strange at all if he said, 'Well, I have been enjoying myself'. We don't mind that.

K: That's right. 		一个人很高兴，很快乐，不是吗？ 但是如果我们问这个人：“你在做些什么？” 而他告诉我们：“我在取悦我自己”， 我们会觉得这有一点古怪。 如果他说：“我在自得其乐”， 我们就一点都不会觉得奇怪了。 我们不介意这样说。

克：是的。

安：但我们根本不关心我们所说的话，甚至
45:38 A: But we don't pay attention to what we say, to even... 克：是这样的，先生。
45:41 K: That's right, sir. I came back after lunch, after a meal, and somebody said, 'Have you enjoyed your meal?' And there was a man there who said, 'We are not pigs to enjoy'. 我吃完午餐后回来，饭后，有人问我： “你用餐愉快吗？” 这时旁边有个人说： “我们不是只知道享受的猪”。

安：哦，天哪。
45:55 A: Oh, good Lord. 克：他说得很认真。

安：是的，是这样。
45:58 K: Seriously.

A: Yes. Exactly. I suppose he must feel very righteous. What he denied himself during the meal. 		我想他一定觉得自己做得很对。 他拒绝让自己在用餐时去享受。

克：这是一个关注的问题，不是吗，
46:12 K: It is a question of attention, isn't it really, a question of attention, whether you are eating or whether you are observing pleasure. Attention, that's a thing we have to go into very, very deeply - I don't know if there is time now - what it means to attend? Whether we attend to anything at all, or it's only a superficial listening, hearing, seeing, which we call attending. Or the expression of knowledge in doing. Attention, I feel, has nothing to do with knowledge, or with action. In the very attending is action. I mean, one has to go into this again, question of 'What is action?'. Perhaps we can do it another day. 实际上是一个关注的问题，不管你是在吃饭 还是在观察欢愉。 关注， 这是一件我们必须非常深入地探讨的事情 ——我不知道现在还有没有时间——“关注”意味着什么？ 我们是否真的关注任何事情， 或者只是肤浅地听听， 听见、看见，那是我们所谓的关注。 或者知识在行动中的表达。 关注，我觉得它和知识毫无关系， 知识和行动也没什么关系。 关注本身之中就有行动。 我的意思是，我们必须再次去探究这个 “行动是什么”的问题。 也许我们可以改天再讨论这个问题。

安：是的，我见到这其中有些关联，
47:38 A: Yes, I see a relation between what you've just said about action and what a few conversations ago we came to with the word 'movement'.

K: Yes. 		即你刚才说的行动 和之前一些谈话之间的关联， 当时我们说到了“运动”这个词。

克：是的。

安：一种正在进行的状态。
47:57 A: On-going-ness. And when you were talking about standing and looking at the tree on the mountain. I remembered when I was in Rishikesh, I was staying at one of the ashrams there, actually the Vedanta Forest Academy, and when I got to my quarters, a monkey came and sat on the window sill with her little baby, and she looked full into my face, and I looked full into hers, but I think she looked fuller into mine. I had that strange feeling that I was actually a human being being... 当你说到 站着观看山上的那棵树时， 我记起当我在瑞斯凯斯， 当时我待在当地的一家修行所， 实际上就是吠檀多森林学院， 当我到了宿舍时， 一只猴子跑过来坐在窗台上， 还带着她的小孩， 她盯着我的脸看， 而我也看着她的眼睛， 但我觉得她可能看到我更多一些。 我有那种很奇怪的感觉， 即我实际上是一个人

克：在被研究着。

安：……被研究，
48:55 K: Investigated.

A: ...investigated, or as the students say today, being psyched out by this monkey. And it was a profound shock to me. 		或者像如今某些学生所说的， 被这只猴子给镇住了。 这对我而言是一个很深刻的震惊。

克：说到猴子，先生，
49:10 K: Talking of monkeys, sir, I was in Benares, at the place I go to usually, I was doing yoga exercises, half naked, and a big monkey, with black face and long tail, came and sat on the veranda. I had closed my eyes. I looked and there was this big monkey. She looked at me and I looked at her. A big monkey, sir. They are powerful things. And it stretched out its hand, so I walked up and held her hand, like that, held it. 我曾经在贝拿勒斯，一个我经常去的地方， 我正在那里做一些瑜伽练习，半裸着身体， 这时一只很大的猴子， ——它有一张黑脸以及长长的尾巴——走过来坐在阳台上。 我原本是闭着眼的，当我一睁开眼，眼前突然出现这么一只大猴子。 她看着我，我也看着她。 一只很大的猴子，先生。 它们是很凶猛的动物。 可是她伸出了她的手， 所以我走上前握住她的手，像这样，握着它。

安：握着它。

克：她的手很粗糙，但非常非常柔软，
49:56 A: Held it. 格外地柔软。但很粗糙。
49:58 K: And it was rough, but very, very supple, extraordinarily supple. But rough. And we looked at each other. And it said... it wanted to come into the room. I said, look, I am doing exercises, I have little time, would you come another day? I kind of talked to it: come another day. So it looked at me, and I withdrew, went back. She stayed there for two or three minutes and gradually went away. 我们相互凝视对方。 她说……她想要到屋子里去。 我说，你瞧，我在锻炼，我没什么时间， 你可以改日再来吗？ 我差不多是对她说的：你改日再来吧。 然后她看着我，我收回了手，回去了。 她在那儿又待了两三分钟 然后慢慢地离开了。

安：真是不可思议，太不可思议了！
50:33 A: Marvellous, just marvellous! Complete act of attention between you. 你们互相之间完全的关注。

克：没有任何恐惧的感觉。
50:40 K: There was no sense of fear. It wasn't afraid. I wasn't afraid. A sense of, you know... 她并没有觉得害怕，我也没觉得害怕。 那种感觉，你知道的

安：这让我想起我读过的拉玛纳·马哈希的一个故事，
50:51 A: This reminds me of a story I read about Ramana Maharishi, how when he was a young man he went and lived in a tiger's cave. And it was occupied by the tiger. And the tiger would come back after the hunt in the early hours of the morning and sleep with him. To read that within the environs of our culture, well, it starts, you feel undone when you read that, if you think for a moment, you could allow yourself to believe it. But in the context of what we have been saying about the monkeys and this marvellous story you told me, I wish I could have shaken the hand of that little mother with her baby. I wasn't ready to. 讲的是当他年轻的时候 他到一个虎穴中去居住。 这个洞穴本来是老虎占着的。 老虎外出觅食后就会回来， 在凌晨的时候和他睡在一起。 在我们的文化背景下阅读这样的故事， 一开始，当你读到它时，你会觉得这不靠谱， 可如果你思考一会儿， 你也许会让自己相信它。 但在我们一直讨论的 猴子事件 以及你告诉我的那个不可思议的故事的语境中， 我希望我可以和那位带着孩子的 小猴妈妈握握手。 但我当时没准备好。

克：不，这真的……我不知道，
51:47 K: No, it was really... I don't know, there must have been a communication, there must have been a sense of friendship, you know, without any antagonism, without any fear. It looked at me, you know. And I think, attention is something not to be practised, not to be cultivated, go to a school to learn how to be attentive. That's what they do in this country and in other places, say, 'I don't know what attention is, I'm going to learn from somebody who will tell me how to get it'. Then it's not attention. 这里一定有某种交流， 一定有某种友谊，你知道的， 没有对抗，没有恐惧。 她看着我，你知道的。 我认为，关注不是某种练习得来的东西， 不是培养出来的， 去学校学习怎样去关注。 在这个国家他们就是这样做的，在其他地方也是这样， 他们说：“我不知道关注是什么， 我打算向其他人学习， 他们会告诉我怎样得到它”。 那就不是关注了。

安：这被称为快速阅读。
52:30 A: Speed reading, it's called. 克：快速阅读，是的。

安：一分钟阅读一千词。
52:33 K: Speed reading, yes.

A: A thousand words a minute. 		克：先生，这就是为什么我觉得
52:40 K: Sir, that's why I feel there is a great sense of care and affection in being attentive, which means diligently watching. That word 'diligent' comes from 'legere' - you know, of course - to read. To read exactly what it is, what is there. Not interpret, not translate it, not contrive to do something with it, but to read what is there. There is an infinite lot to see. There is tremendous lot to see in pleasure, as we saw. And to read it. And to read it you must be watchful, attentive, diligent care. But we are negligent. We say, yes, what's wrong with pleasure? 在全神贯注中 有一种博大的关怀和慈爱， 那意味着非常勤勉地看。 “勤勉”这个词来自于“legere” ——你当然知道的——它的意思是“去阅读”。 如实阅读眼下的事实，此刻存在的事物。 不解释，不去翻译它， 不想对它做些什么， 而是去阅读此刻存在的事实。 这里有无限多的东西可以去看。 从欢愉中可以看到无限多的内容，就像我们之前看到的一样。 去阅读它。 而若要阅读它，你就必须十分警醒、全神贯注， 非常勤勉地去关心。 但我们却粗心大意。我们说，是呀，欢愉有什么问题吗？

安：在口语中有这样的说法，
53:49 A: There's a colloquial remark in our tongue, when somebody wishes to secure attention, they will say, 'Do you read me?' That, of course, has been taken over in technology into a different aspect - but quite apart from what someone would be saying with earphones on in a plane - just common ordinary practice, sometimes a person will say that. 当某人想要得到别人的关注时， 他会说：“你明白我的意思了吗？” 当然了，这一点在科技中被用在了 另外一个不同的方面 ——但是这跟有人在飞机上 戴着耳机讲什么完全无关—— 只就通常的惯例而言， 有时候一个人会这样说。

克：因此我们所做的就是真正去看这整张地图。
54:16 K: So that what we have done is really read this whole map. 安：是的。

克：从最开始的责任、关系、
54:23 A: Yes. 恐惧、欢愉——所有这些。
54:24 K: From the beginning of responsibility, relationship, fear, pleasure - all that. Just to observe this extraordinary map of our life. 只是去观察我们的生活这张非同寻常的地图。

安：而它的妙处就在于
54:42 A: And the beauty of it is that we've been moving within the concern for the question of the transformation of man, which is not dependent on knowledge or time, without getting worried about whether we are getting off the track. It is happening naturally. That, I take it, is not a surprise to you, of course, but I'm sure that it's shocking in terms of... 我们的探讨一直紧扣 人类的转化问题， ——它不依靠知识或者时间—— 并不用担心 我们是否会偏离轨道。 它非常自然地发生了。 这一点，我想，对你而言当然并不奇怪， 但我可以肯定的是 它非常令人震撼

克：这也是为什么，先生， 与智者生活在一起是正确的。
55:18 K: And that's why, also, sir, it is right to live with the company of the wise. Be with a man who is really wise. Not these phoney people are wise, but real wisdom. Not bought in books, not attending classes where you are taught wisdom. Wisdom is something that comes with self-knowing. 与真正有智慧的人在一起。 不是那些假冒的智者，而是真正的智慧。 不是从书本上得来的， 也不是去参加某些教授智慧的课程。 智慧是一种伴随自知而来的东西。

安：这让我想起《吠陀经》里面的一首赞歌， 它讲到了掌管语言的女神，
55:49 A: It reminds me of a hymn in the Veda that talks about the goddess of speech, who never appears except among friends. 她只在朋友之间出现。

克：是的。

安：太奇妙了。
56:00 K: Yes.

A: Marvellous. Actually that means that unless there is the care, the affection that you mentioned, that is continuous, concurrent with attention, there can be nothing but babble. 		事实上，这意味着 除非有那种关心、 那种友爱，如你所说，它们是连绵不绝的， 与关注是同时发生的， 否则就只会胡言乱语。

克：当然。

安：只有胡言乱语。
56:23 K: Of course.

A: There can be verbal babble. 		克：而这正是现代社会所鼓励的，你明白的。
56:27 K: Which the modern world is encouraging, you see. 安：是的。
56:31 A: Yes. 克：那同样意味着肤浅的欢愉，
56:34 K: Again, which means the superficial pleasures, not enjoyment. You follow? Superficial pleasures have become the curse. And to go behind that is one of the most difficult things for people to do. 而不是喜悦。你明白吗？ 肤浅的欢愉已经成为了诅咒。 要想深入探究它， 对人们而言是最困难的事情之一。

安：因为它越来越快。

克：就是这样。
56:56 A: Because it goes faster and faster.

K: That's just it. 		安：它越来越快。

克：就是这些事情在毁灭地球、污染空气。
57:00 A: It goes faster and faster. 他们正在毁灭一切。
57:01 K: That's what is destroying the earth, the air. Everything they are destroying. There is a place I go to every year, in India, where there is a school: the hills are the oldest hills in the world. 有一个我每年都去的地方， 在印度，那里有一所学校， 那些山都是这世界上最古老的山。

安：真是件美好的事。

克：什么也没有改变，
57:23 A: What a beautiful thing.

K: Nothing has been changed, no bulldozers, no new houses, it's an old place, with the old hills, and in amongst there is a school, with which I am connected, and so on. And you feel the enormity of time, the feeling of absolute non-movement. Which is civilisation, which is all this circus that is going on. And when you come there you feel this utter quietness, in which... time has not touched it. And when you leave it and come to civilisation you feel rather lost, a sense of what is all this about? Why is there so much noise about nothing? I think, that's why it is so odd and rather inviting, a great delight to see everything as is, including myself. To see what I am, not through the eyes of a professor, a psychologist, a guru, a book - just to see what I am, and to read what I am. Because all history is in me. You follow?

A: Of course. There is something immensely beautiful about what you have said. Do you think, in the next conversation we'll have we could talk about the relation of beauty to what you have said? Thank you so much. 		没有推土机， 没有新造的房子， 那是个古老的地方，有着古老的群山， 群山中有一所学校， 这些学校与我有联系，等等。 你能感觉到时间的广袤， 完全静止不动的感觉。 而运动着的就是那些文明， 上演的所有那些闹剧。 而当你去到那里，你能感觉到 这种彻底的寂静， 那寂静之中……时间根本没有沾染它。 而当你离开那里回到文明社会， 你会觉得很失落， 会有一种感觉：这到底是怎么回事？ 为什么有这么多无谓的喧嚣？ 我认为，这就是为什么 如实地看到一切，包括自己，会是一种莫大的欣喜， 会感觉那么古怪，却又如此吸引人。 看到自己实际如何， 不是透过一个教授或者心理学家的眼睛来看， 不是透过一个古鲁的眼睛、一本书来看——只是看到我实际的样子， 去如实阅读自己 。 因为所有的历史都在我身上。 你明白吗？

安：是的。 你所说的话之中 有一种极其美丽的东西。 你觉得，下一次谈话 我们可以谈谈 你所说的东西和美之间的关系吗？ 非常感谢。