克里希那穆提 - 悲伤、激情和美

Krishnamurti Subtitles

SD74CA9 - 悲伤、激情和美
与艾伦·W·安德森博士的第九次对话
美国，加利福尼亚，圣地亚哥
1974年2月22日

0:38	Krishnamurti in Dialogue with Dr. Allan W. Anderson	克里希那穆提与艾伦·W·安德森博士的对话
0:43	J. Krishnamurti was born in South India and educated in England. For the past 40 years he has been speaking in the United States, Europe, India, Australia, and other parts of the world. From the outset of his life's work he repudiated all connections with organised religions and ideologies and said that his only concern was to set man absolutely unconditionally free. He is the author of many books, among them The Awakening of Intelligence, The Urgency of Change, Freedom From the Known, and The Flight of the Eagle. This is one of a series of dialogues between Krishnamurti and Dr. Allan W. Anderson, who is professor of religious studies at San Diego State University where he teaches Indian and Chinese scriptures and the oracular tradition. Dr. Anderson, a published poet, received his degree from Columbia University and the Union Theological Seminary. He has been honoured with the distinguished Teaching Award from the California State University.	J·克里希那穆提出生于南印度，在英国接受教育。在过去40年间，他曾在美国、欧洲、印度、澳大利亚和世界其他地方演讲。在他毕生的事业开始时，他就断绝了与有组织的宗教和意识形态的所有关系，并说他只关心让人类彻底地、无条件地自由。他是很多本书的作者，其中有《智慧的觉醒》、《转变的紧迫性》、《从已知中解脱》和《鹰的翱翔》。这是克里希那穆提和艾伦·W·安德森博士的系列对话之一。安德森博士是宗教学教授，任教于圣地亚哥州立大学，他教授印度与中国的经典，以及传统的神谕文化。安德森博士，出版过诗集，在哥伦比亚大学和纽约协和神学院获得学位。他曾被授予杰出教学奖，该荣誉由加利福尼亚州立大学颁发。
1:49	A: Mr. Krishnamurti, in our last conversation together we had moved from speaking together concerning fear and the relation between that and the transformation of the individual person which is not dependent on knowledge or time, and from that we went to pleasure, and just as we reached the end of that conversation the question of beauty arose. And if it's agreeable with you, I should like very much for us to explore that together.	安：克里希那穆提先生，在我们上次的谈话中我们从一起谈论恐惧以及恐惧和个人转变之间的关系开始 ——那种转变并不依赖于知识或时间—— 然后从那里我们又谈到了快乐，就在我们上次谈话结束时关于美的问题出现了。如果你同意的话，我非常希望我们一起来探讨这个话题。
2:35	K: One often wonders why museums are so filled with pictures and statues. Is it because man has lost touch with nature and therefore has to go to these museums to look at other people's paintings - famous paintings and some of them are really marvellously beautiful? Why do the museums exist at all? I'm just asking. I'm not saying they should or should not. And I've been to many museums all over the world, taken around by experts, and I've always felt as though I was being shown around and looking at things that were so artificial for me, other peoples' expression, what they considered beauty. And I wondered what is beauty? Because when you read a poem of Keats, or really a poem that a man writes with his heart and with very deep feeling, he wants to convey something to you of what he feels, what he considers to be the most exquisite essence of beauty. And I have looked at a great many cathedrals, - as you must have - over Europe, and again, this expression of their feelings, their devotion, their reverence, in masonry, in rocks, in buildings, in marvellous cathedrals. And looking at all this I'm always surprised, when people talk about beauty, or write about beauty, whether it is something created by man, or something that you see in nature, or it has nothing to do with the stone, or with the paint, or with the word, but something deeply inward. And so, often, in discussing with so-called professionals, having a dialogue with them, it appears to me that it is always somewhere out there, the modern painting, modern music, the pop, and so on, so on, it's always somehow so dreadfully artificial. I may be wrong. So what is beauty? Must it be expressed? That's one question. Does it need the word, the stone, the colour, the paint? Or it is something that cannot possibly be expressed in words, in a building, in a statue? So if we could go into this question of what is beauty. I feel, to really go into it very deeply, one must know what is suffering. Or understand what is suffering, because without passion you can't have beauty. Passion in the sense, not lust, not... the passion that comes when there is immense suffering. And the remaining with that suffering, not escaping from it, brings this passion. Passion means the abandonment, the complete abandonment of the 'me,' of the self, the ego. And therefore a great austerity, not the austerity of... - the word means ash, severe, dry, which the religious people have made it into - but rather the austerity of great beauty.	克：我经常疑惑为什么博物馆总是塞满了图画与雕像。是不是因为人类已经失去了与自然的联系，因此必须要到那些博物馆去看别人的画作——著名的画作，而它们中的一些真的非常美丽？博物馆究竟为什么存在呢？我只是在问，我没有说它们应该或不应该存在。我去过世界上很多的博物馆，在专家们的陪同下，而我总是感到好像我被带着四处参观一些在我看来太人工化而按照其他人的说法他们却认为美丽的事物。因而我想知道什么是美？因为当你读一首济慈的诗，或者一首一个人用心和深沉的感受写的诗，他想传达给你他感受到的东西，他所认为美最细腻的本质。我见过很多宏伟的教堂， ——你也一定见过—— 遍布欧洲，同样的，这种对他们的感受、他们的奉献、他们的敬畏的表达，也在那一砖一石中，在那些建筑中，在宏伟的大教堂中。而看到这一切我常常感到惊讶，当人们谈论美，或抒写美，美是不是人类所创造的某种东西，还是你在大自然中看到的东西，或者，美是与石头、画作或文字无关的，而是某种深深的内在的东西。因此，在与所谓的专家讨论的过程中，在与他们的对话中，给我的感觉经常是，美总是来自外在的，那些现代的画作、现代音乐、流行音乐等等，它们总是不知怎地如此可怕地虚假。我可能说得不对。那么美是什么呢？它必须被表达出来吗？这是一个问题。它需要借助词语、石头、色彩和画作来表达吗？或者，它是某种不可能通过言语、建筑和雕像表达出来的东西？所以，我们能否深入探究“什么是美”这个问题。我觉得，要真正非常深入地探究这个问题，一个人必须知道什么是苦难，或者理解什么是受苦，因为没有激情你就不会拥有美。这种激情，不是情欲，不是...... 而是当存在巨大痛苦时所产生的激情。与那痛苦同在，不逃避它，带来了这种激情。激情意味着抛弃，对“我”、“自己”、“自我”的完全抛弃。进而就有了一种巨大的简朴，不是那种简朴......——那个词意味着苍白、苛刻、枯燥，是宗教人士把它变成了这些意思—— 而是充满巨大的美的简朴。
8:53	A: Yes, I'm following you, I really am.	安：是的，我理解你所说的，我真的理解。
8:57	K: A great sense of dignity, beauty, that is essentially austere. And to be austere, not verbally or ideologically, being austere means total abandonment, letting go of the 'me'. And one cannot let that thing take place if one hasn't deeply understood what suffering is. Because passion comes from the word 'sorrow'. I don't know if you have gone into it, looked into that word, the root meaning of the word 'passion' is sorrow, from suffering.	克：一种深深的庄严和美丽的感觉，在本质上就是简朴。要做到简朴，不是在言语或思想上简朴， “做到简朴”意味着完全抛弃和放开“我”。一个人无法让此事发生如果他没有深刻地理解什么是“受苦”。因为激情来自“悲伤”这个词。我不知道你是否曾深入探究过这个词语， “激情”这个词的词根义是悲伤，因受苦而悲伤。
9:58	A: To feel. K: To feel. You see, sir, people have escaped from suffering. I think it is very deeply related to beauty - not that you must suffer!	安：去感受。克：去感受。你知道，先生，人们一直逃避苦难。我认为它与美息息相关 ——并不是说你一定要受苦！
10:19	A: Not that you must suffer but - yes.	安：并不是说你一定要受苦但——是的。
10:21	K: That is, no, we must go a little more slowly. I am jumping too quickly. First of all, we assume we know what beauty is. We see a Picasso, or a Rembrandt, or a Michelangelo, and we think, 'How marvellous that is'. We think we know. We have read it in books, the experts have written about it, and so on. One reads it and says, yes. We absorb it through others. But if one was really enquiring into what is beauty, there must be a great sense of humility. Now, I don't know what beauty is, actually. I can imagine what beauty is. I've learned what beauty is. I have been taught in schools, in colleges, in reading books, and going on tours, guided tours, and all the rest, visiting thousands of museums, but actually to find out the depth of beauty, the depth of colour, the depth of feeling, the mind must start with a great sense of humility: I don't know. Really one doesn't know what meditation is. One thinks one knows. When we discuss meditation we will come to it. So one must start, I feel, if one is enquiring into beauty, with a great sense of humility, not knowing. That very 'not knowing' is beautiful.	克：不行，我们必须慢一点。我跳得太快了。首先，我们假设我们知道什么是美。我们看到毕加索、伦勃朗或米开朗基罗的作品，然后我们想，“那是多么不可思议的作品”。我们认为我们知道。我们从书上读到过，专家们曾描写过，等等。一个人读了这种描写并说，我同意。我们从其他人那里把美的概念吸收过来。但如果一个人真正去深入探索什么是美，就必须具备一种巨大的谦逊感。那么，实际上我不知道什么是美。我可以想象美是什么。我也曾学过什么是美。我曾被教导过什么是美，在学校里，在大学里，通过读书和旅行，他人引导下的游览，以及诸如此类的，参观成千上百座博物馆，但要真正发现美的深度，色彩的深度，感受的深度，头脑必须带着强烈的谦逊感开始：我不知道。一个人确实不知道冥想是什么。一个人以为自己知道。当我们讨论冥想时我们会谈到这个问题的。因此，我觉得，如果一个人要深入探究美，必须带着强烈的谦逊感——从“不知道”——开始。 “不知道”本身就是美丽的。
12:39	A: Yes, yes, I've been listening and I've been trying to open myself to this relation that you are making between beauty and passion.	安：是的，是的，我一直在听并且尝试打开自己，去体会你所说的这种美与激情的关系。
13:02	K: You see, sir, let's start, right? Man suffers, not only personally, but there is immense suffering of man. It is a thing that is pervading the universe. Man has suffered physically, psychologically, spiritually, in every way, for centuries upon centuries. The mother cries because her son is killed, the wife cries because her husband is mutilated in a war or accident - there is tremendous suffering in the world. I don't think people are aware or even feel this immense sorrow that is in the world. They are so concerned with their own personal sorrow, they overlook the sorrow that a poor man in a little village, in India, or in China, or in the Eastern world, where they never possibly have a full meal, clean clothes, comfortable bed. And there is this sorrow of thousands of people being killed in war. Or, in the totalitarian world, millions being executed for ideologies, tyranny, the terror of all that. So there is all this sorrow in the world. And there is also the personal sorrow. And without really understanding it very, very deeply and resolving it, passion won't come out of sorrow. And without passion, how can you see beauty? You can intellectually appreciate a painting, or a poem, or a statue, but you need this great sense of inward bursting of passion, exploding of passion. That creates in itself the sensitivity that can see beauty. So it is, I think, rather important to understand sorrow. I think it is related - beauty, passion, sorrow.	克：你明白了，先生，让我们开始，好吗？人类受苦，不仅仅个人受苦，而且存在着全人类的巨大苦难。那是一件遍及全世界的事情。人类在生理上、心理上和精神上受苦，在各个方面，历经了无数个世纪。母亲哭泣因为她的儿子被杀死了，妻子哭泣因为她的丈夫在战争或事故中致残 ——世界上存在着巨大的苦难。我不认为人们意识到了或甚至感受到了世界上存在这些巨大的悲伤。他们太过于关心他们自己的悲伤，却忽略了这种悲伤：在一个小村庄里，在印度，在中国，或者在东方国家里的穷人，他们从来没有一顿饱饭，没有干净的衣服和舒适的床。还有一种悲伤，成千上万的人在战争中被杀。或者在极权主义世界中，成千上万的人因为意识形态、暴政而被处死，所有这些可怕的事情。因此世界上存在着诸如此类的悲伤。并且还存在着个人的悲伤。如果没有真正非常非常深入地了解悲伤并解决它，激情就不会从悲伤中产生。而没有激情，你如何能看到美？你可以从知识的角度欣赏一幅画，一首诗，或一座雕像，但你需要这种内在强烈燃烧着的激情、爆发的激情。这种激情自身便能创造出能看到美的敏感。因此，我认为，了解悲伤是非常重要的。我认为它们都是相关的——美、激情和悲伤。
16:24	A: I'm interested in the order of those words. Beauty, passion, sorrow. If one is in relation to the transformation we have been speaking about, to come to beauty, I take it, it's a passage from sorrow to passion to beauty.	安：我对那些词语的顺序有兴趣。美、激情、悲伤。如果一个人 ——就我们谈论过的这种转变而言—— 要达到美，我认为，这是一个从悲伤到激情再到美的转变过程。
16:47	K: That's right, sir. A: Yes, yes. Please do go on. I understand.	克：正是这样的，先生。安：是的，是的。请继续，我明白。
16:54	K: You see, in the Christian world - if I am not mistaken - sorrow is delegated to a person, and through that person we somehow escape from sorrow, that is, we hope to escape from sorrow. And in the Eastern world sorrow is rationalised through the statement of karma. You know the word 'karma' means to do. And they believe in karma. That is, what you have done in the past life you pay for in the present or reward in the present, and so on, so on. So there are these two categories of escapes. And there are thousand escapes - whiskey, drugs, sex, going off to attend the Mass, and so on, so on. Man has never stayed with a thing. He has always either sought comfort in a belief, in an action, in identification with something greater than himself, and so on, so on, but he has never said, 'Look, I must see what this is, I must penetrate it and not delegate it to somebody else. I must go into it, I must face it, I must look at it, I must know what it is'. So, when the mind doesn't escape from this sorrow, either personal or the sorrow of man, if you don't escape it, if you don't rationalise it, if you don't try to go beyond it, if you are not frightened of it, then you remain with it. Because any movement from 'what is', or any movement away from 'what is', is a dissipation of energy. It prevents you actually understanding 'what is'. The 'what is' is sorrow. And we have means, and ways, and cunning development of escapes. Now, if there is no escape whatsoever, then you remain with it. I do not know if you have ever done it. Because in everyone's life there is an incident that brings you tremendous sorrow, a happening. It might be an incident, a word, an accident, a shattering sense of absolute loneliness, and so on. These things happen, and with that comes the sense of utter sorrow. Now, when the mind can remain with that, not move away from it, out of that comes passion. Not the cultivated passion, not the artificial trying to be passionate, but the movement of passion is born out of this non-withdrawal from sorrow. It is the total... completely remaining with that.	克：你看，在基督教世界中——如果我没有弄错的话—— 悲伤被交托给一个人，而通过那个人我们在某种程度上逃避了悲伤，即，我们希望逃避悲伤。但在东方世界，悲伤通过因果报应的解释被合理化了。你知道“因果报应”这个词意味着去做。他们相信因果报应。那就是，你上一辈子所做的，此生你要为之付出代价或得到奖赏，等等，等等。因此有这两大类的逃避。此外还存在上千种逃避的方法——威士忌、吸毒、性、去参加弥撒等等，等等。人类从来不与任何东西共处。他总是寻找舒适，在信仰中，在行动中，在对某些比自己更伟大东西的认同中，等等，等等。但他从来不说：“看，我必须明白悲伤是什么，我必须洞察它，而不是由别的什么人来代替我这么做。我必须深入探究它，我必须面对它，我必须观察它，我必须知道它是什么。” 因此，当心智不从悲伤中逃脱，无论是个人的还是人类的悲伤，如果你不逃避它，如果你不将它合理化，如果你不尝试去超越它，如果你不害怕它，那么你就是在和它共处。因为任何脱离“现状”的运动，或者任何逃避“现状”的活动，都是能量的浪费。它阻碍你真正了解“现状”。 “现状”是悲伤。我们有很多逃避的方式、途径和精心谋划的逃避之道。那么，如果没有任何逃避，然后你就和它待在一起了。我不知道你是否曾经这样做过。因为在每一个人的生命中都有一些给你带来巨大悲伤的事件，有某种意外。可能是一件事、一句话或一场事故，一种让人痛不欲生的彻底的孤独感，等等。这些事情发生了，伴随而来的是一种彻底悲伤的感觉。那么，当心智能够与之共处，不去逃避它，从中就产生了激情。不是培养出来的激情，不是人为地努力去变得有激情，而是这种激情的运动来自于不回避悲伤。那是完全地......彻底地与悲伤共处。
21:21	A: I am thinking that we also say when we speak of someone in sorrow, that they are disconsolate.	安：我在想我们也说过当我们谈到处于悲伤中的人，他们是郁郁寡欢的。
21:31	K: Yes. Disconsolate. A: Disconsolate, and immediately we think that the antidote to that is to get rid of the 'dis', not to stay with the 'dis'. And, in an earlier conversation, we spoke about two things related to each other in terms of opposite sides of the same coin, and while you have been speaking I've been seeing the interrelation in a polar sense between action and passion. Passion being able to undergo, able to be changed. Whereas action is doing to effect change. And this would be the movement from sorrow to passion at the precise point, if I have understood you correctly, where I become able to undergo what is there.	克：是的，郁郁寡欢。安：郁郁寡欢，然后我们马上想到解药是摆脱掉那个郁郁寡欢，不和郁郁寡欢待在一起。然而，在早前的一次谈话中，我们谈到两者就像硬币的两面一样相互关联，当你刚才在说话时我看到在行动和激情之间的有一种两极分化的相互关系。激情可以被经历、被改变，然而行动则是引发改变的作为。在这一刻，是从悲伤到激情的运动，如果我正确理解了你说的话，这时我变得能经历“现状”。
22:35	K: So, when there is no escape, when there is no desire to seek comfort away from 'what is', then out of that absolute, inescapable reality comes this flame of passion. And without that there is no beauty. You may write endless volumes about beauty, or be a marvellous painter, but without that inward quality of passion which is the outcome of great understanding of sorrow, I don't see how beauty can exist. Also, one observes, man has lost touch with nature.	克：所以，当不存在逃避时，当不存在避开“现状” 寻求满足的愿望时，从这种完全的、逃避不了的真实中出现了激情的火焰。没有这些就没有美。你可以无休止地书写美，或者成为一个杰出的画家，但没有那种内在的激情， ——它源自对于悲伤的深刻理解—— 我看不到美怎能存在。并且，我们观察到，人类与自然失去了联系。
23:40	A: Oh yes.	安：噢，是的。
23:41	K: Completely, specially in big towns, and even in small villages, towns, and hamlets, man is always outwardly going, outward, pursued by his own thoughts, and so he has more or less lost touch with nature. Nature means nothing to him: 'Yes, it's very nice, very beautiful'. Once I was standing with a few friends and my brother many years ago at the Grand Canyon, looking at the marvellous thing, incredible, the colours, the depth and the shadows. And a group of people came, and one lady says, 'Yes, isn't it marvellous', and the next says, 'Let's go and have tea'. And off they trotted, back to the house. You follow? That is what is happening in the world. We have lost completely touch with nature. We don't know what it means. And also we kill. You follow me? We kill for food, we kill for amusement, we kill for what is called sport. I won't go into all that. So there is this lack of intimate relationship with nature.	克：完全失去了联系，特别是在大城市，甚至在小乡村、城镇和小村庄，人类总是向外走，向外求，被自己的想法所左右，因此他多多少少与自然失去了联系。自然对于他来说什么都不是： “是的，非常好，非常美”。很多年以前，有一次我和几个朋友，还有我弟弟，一起站在“大峡谷”那里，看着美妙的景色，真是不可思议，那些颜色、深度和阴影。然后一群人走过，一位女士说， “是的，这不是很壮观吗”，然后她身旁一个人说，“我们一起去喝茶吧”。然后他们匆忙回到屋子里。你理解吗？那正是在世界各地发生的事情。我们完全与自然失去了联系。我们不知道自然意味着什么。并且我们也杀戮。你能跟得上我所说的吗？我们为了食物而杀戮，我们为了娱乐而杀戮，我们为了所谓的体育运动而杀戮。我不会深入讲这些了。因此人们缺乏与自然亲密的关系。
25:17	A: I remember a shock, a profound shock that I had in my college days. I was standing on the steps of the administration building and watching a very, very beautiful sunset, and one of my college acquaintances asked me what I was doing, and I said, 'Well, I am not doing anything, I'm looking at the sunset'. And you know what he said to me? This so shocked me that it's one of those things that you never forget. He just said, 'Well, there's nothing to prevent it, is there?'	安：我想起了一次震撼，一次深深的震撼，那是在我上大学时。我正站在办公大楼的台阶上看着非常非常美的落日，一个学院里的熟人问我在做什么，我说：“我没在做什么事，我在看落日。” 然后你知道他跟我说什么吗？那太让我震惊了，那是你永远都不会忘记的事情。他只是说： “哦，没有任何东西可以阻止它，是吗？”
25:58	K: Nothing? A: Nothing to prevent it, is there? Yes, I know. I follow you.	克：没有任何东西？安：没有任何东西可以阻止它，是吗？是的，我知道，我了解你所说的。
26:06	K: So, sir, you see, we are becoming more and more artificial, more and more superficial, more and more verbal, a linear direction, not vertical at all, but linear. And so naturally, artificial things become more important: theatres, cinemas, you know, the whole business of modern world. And very few have the sense of beauty in themselves, beauty in conduct. You understand, sir? A: Oh yes.	克：所以，先生，你知道，我们正变得越来越人工化，越来越肤浅，越来越流于文字，沿着一条水平线走下去，完全不是垂直的，而只是一条水平线。因此很自然地，人工的东西变得更重要了：剧院、电影院，你知道，整个现代世界的东西。而很少有人自身拥有那种美，一言一行之中的美。你能理解吗先生？安：噢，是的。
27:06	K: Beauty in behaviour. Beauty in the usage of their language, the voice, the manner of walking, the sense of humility - with that humility everything becomes so gentle, quiet, full of beauty. We have none of that. And yet we go to museums, we are educated with museums, with pictures, and we have lost the delicacy, the sensitivity of the mind, the heart, the body, and so when we have lost this sensitivity, how can we know what beauty is? And when we haven't got sensitivity, we go off to some place to learn to be sensitive. You know this. A: Oh, I do.	克：行为举止中的美。运用语言、嗓音、步态的美，谦逊感 ——有了那样的谦虚，所有东西都变得如此温柔、安静，充满美感。我们一点也没有那些品质。然而我们去博物馆，我们通过博物馆、画作去学习，我们失去了敏感的品质，失去了头脑、内心、身体的敏感性，而当我们失去了这种敏感时，我们怎么知道什么是美？而当我们不敏感时，我们就到某个地方去学习变得敏感。你知道这些。安：噢，我知道。
28:06	K: Go to a college, or some ashram, or some rotten hole, and there I am going to learn to be sensitive. Sensitive through touch, through... you know. That becomes disgusting. So, now how can we... as you are a professor and teacher, how can you, sir, educate - it becomes very, very important - the students to have this quality? Therefore one asks, what is it we are educated for? What are we being educated for? Everybody is being educated. 90% of the people probably in America are being educated, know what to read and write, and all the rest of it, what for?	克：到大学，或某个静修处，或某个腐烂的山洞里，在那里我将学会敏锐。通过触碰变得敏锐，通过......你了解的。那变得非常恶心。因此，我们如何才能...... 既然你是一个教授，一名老师，先生，你如何教育 ——这变得非常非常重要—— 学生去拥有这些品质呢？因此一个人问，我们受教育是为了什么？我们是为了什么而接受教育？每一个人都在接受教育。在美国大概90%的人正在接受教育，了解如何读写等等诸如此类的东西，为了什么？
29:14	A: And yet, it's a fact, at least in my experience of teaching, class after class, year after year, that with all this proliferation of publishing and so-called educational techniques, students are without as much care to the written word and the spoken word as was the case that I can distinctly remember years ago. Now perhaps other teachers have had a different experience, but I've watched this in my classes, and the usual answer that I get when I speak to my colleagues about this is: well, the problem is in the high schools. And then you talk to a poor high school teacher, and he puts it on the poor grade school. So we have poor grade school, poor high school, poor college, poor university, because we are always picking up where we left off, which is a little lower next year than where it was before.	安：然而，事实上，至少在我的教学经验里，一堂接一堂的课，一年又一年，随着出版物和所谓的教育技巧的激增，学生已经没有那么在意所写下来的文字和所说的话了，不像我还能清楚记得的多年前那样的在意了。现在其他老师可能有不同的体验，但在我的课堂中我看到了这些，而当我跟我的同事讲起这些时，我通常所得到的回答是：问题是在中学。然后你与一个可怜的高中老师谈这件事，他就把问题归到差劲的小学上。因此我们就有了差劲的小学，差劲的中学，差劲的学院，差劲的大学，因为我们一直从别人留下的状况接手，下一年总是比以前更差。
30:18	K: Sir, that's why when I have talked at various universities, and so on, so on. I've always felt: what are we being educated for? To just become glorified clerks?	克：先生，那就是为什么当我在不同的大学演讲，等等等等，我总是感觉：我们为什么要接受教育？仅仅要成为光荣的小职员吗？
30:36	A: That's what it turns out to be. K: Of course it is. Glorified business men and God knows what else. What for? I mean, if I had a son, that would be a tremendous problem for me. Fortunately, I haven't got a son, but it would be a burning question to me: what am I to do with the children that I have? To send to all these schools where they are taught nothing but just how to read, and write a book, and how to memorise, and forget the whole field of life? They are taught about sex and reproduction, and all that kind of stuff. But what? So I feel, sir, I mean to me this is a tremendously important question, because I am concerned with several schools in India, and in England there is one, and we are going to form one here in California. It is a burning question: what is it that we are doing with our children? Making them into another robot or into other clever, cunning clerks, great scientists who invent this or that, and then be ordinary, cheap, little human beings, with shoddy minds. You follow, sir? A: I am, I am.	安：事实看来似乎就是如此。克：当然就是那样。光荣的商人和天知道其他的什么。为了什么呢？我的意思是，如果我有一个儿子，那对我来说会是一个巨大的难题。幸运的是我没有儿子，但对我来说那会是一个很急切的问题：我要对我的孩子们做些什么呢？送他们去那些学校，那里什么都没教给他们，除了只是教他们如何阅读、写书和如何记忆，却忘记生活的整个领域吗？他们被教授性和生殖知识，所有那些东西。但又怎样呢？因此我觉得，先生，这对于我来说是一个非常重要的问题，因为我关心印度的几所学校，在英国有一间，我们也会在加利福尼亚成立一间。这是一个燃眉之急的问题：我们要对我们的孩子做什么呢？把他们变成另一个机器人或另一个聪明狡猾的职员、发明这个或那个的大科学家，然后成为平庸、卑鄙、渺小的人类，心智卑劣。你明白吗，先生？安：是的，我明白。
32:15	K: So, when you talk about beauty, can a human being tell another, educate another to grow in beauty, grow in goodness, to flower in great affection and care? Because if we don't do that, we are destroying the earth, as it is happening now, polluting the air. We human beings are destroying everything we touch. So this becomes a very, very serious thing when we talk about beauty, when we talk about pleasure, fear, relationship, order, and so on - all that, none of these things are being taught in any school!	克：因此，当你谈论美，一个人能告诉另一个人，教育另一个人在美中成长、在善中成长，在大爱和关怀中绽放吗？因为如果我们不那样做的话，我们就是在毁灭地球，就像现在正在发生的那样，污染着空气。我们人类正在毁掉我们所接触的每一件东西。因此这变成一件非常、非常严肃的事情，当我们谈到美，当我们谈到快乐、恐惧、关系、秩序等等——所有这些，却没有一间学校教这些东西！
33:26	A: No. I brought that up in my class yesterday, and I asked them directly that very question. And they were very ready to agree that here we are, we are in an upper division course, and we had never heard about this.	安：是的，没有。昨天我在课堂上说起那些，然后我直接问他们那个问题。他们也很倾向于同意我们现在所说的，我们上的是高阶的课程，但我们从来没有听说过这些事情。
33:48	K: Tragic, you follow, sir? A: And furthermore, we don't know whether we are really hearing it for what it really is, because we haven't heard about it, we have got to go through that yet to find out whether we are really listening.	克：真是悲剧，你明白吗，先生？安：此外，我们不知道我们是否真的听到了事实本身，因为我们从来不曾听到过这些，我们必须仔细检查那个说法，去发现我们是否真的在聆听。
34:01	K: And whether the teacher, or the man who is a professor is honest enough to say, 'I don't know. I am going to learn about all this'. So sir, that is why Western civilisation - I am not condemning it, just observing - Western civilisation is mainly concerned with commercialism, consumerism, and a society that is immoral. And when we talk about the transformation of man - not in the field of knowledge or in the field of time, but beyond that - who is interested in this? You follow, sir? Who really cares about it? Because the mother goes off to her job, earns a livelihood, the father goes off, and the child is just an incident.	克：而且无论是老师还是身为教授的人是否能足够诚实地说：“我不知道。我要去了解这一切。” 因此，先生，这就是为什么西方文明 ——我不是在批判它，我只是在观察—— 西方文明主要关注商业、消费和一种不道德的社会。而当我们谈到人类的转变时 ——不是在知识领域或时间领域内，而是超越那些—— 谁对这些感兴趣呢？你明白吗，先生？谁真正关心这个事情？因为母亲要去工作，谋生，父亲也是，而孩子只是一个偶然事件。
35:14	A: Now, as a matter of fact, I know this will probably appear like an astonishingly extravagant statement for me to make, but I think it's getting to the place now where if anyone raises this question at the level that you have been raising it, as a young person who is growing up in his adolescent years, let's say, and he won't let it go, he hangs in there with it, as we say, the question is seriously raised whether he is normal.	安：现在，事实上，我知道对于我来说这可能会像是一个异常夸张的陈述，但我想正在出现这样一种情况：如果有任何一个人提出这个问题是在你提出这个问题的层面上，比如说，当一个年轻人在青春期成长时，他抓住这个问题不放，悬而未决，像我们所说的那样，这个问题就会被认真地提出来，无论他是否是正常的。
35:52	K: Yes, quite, quite.	克：是的，确实，确实。
35:54	A: And it makes one think of Socrates, who was very clear that he knew only one thing: that he didn't know, and he didn't have to say that very often, but he said it the few times enough to get him killed, but at least they took him seriously enough to kill him. Today I think he would be put in some institution for study. The whole thing would have to be checked out.	安：这让人想起了苏格拉底，他非常清楚他只知道一件事情：他什么都不知道，但他不必很经常地说到这点，他只说了几次就足以让自己丢掉性命了，但至少人们裁决苏格拉底时是足够认真的。我想今天他会被安排到某个学会中进行研究工作。这整个事情必须得到检验。
36:20	K: That's what is happening in Russia. They send him off to an asylum...	克：那就是正在俄罗斯发生的事情。他们把他遣送到一间收容所里......
36:24	A: That's right. K: ...mental hospital, and destroy him. Sir, here... we neglect everything for some superficial gain - money. Money means power, position, authority, everything - money.	安：是的。克：......精神病院。然后毁掉他。先生，这里...... 我们忽略了所有东西只为了一些很肤浅的收获 ——金钱。金钱意味着权力、地位、权威和一切——金钱。
36:50	A: It goes back to this success thing that you mentioned before. Always later, always later. On a horizontal axis. Yes. I did want to share with you, as you were speaking about nature, something that has a sort of wry humour about it in terms of the history of scholarship: I thought of those marvellous Vedic hymns to Dawn.	安：这回到你曾提到的成功之类的事情上。总是随后的，总是随后，在一条水平轴线上。是的。我真的很想与你分享，当你说到自然，从学术历史的角度来讲，关于自然，会有一种带着讽刺性的幽默感的东西：我想到了那些奇妙无比的关于黎明的吠陀赞美诗。
37:22	K: Oh yes.	克：哦，是的。
37:26	A: The way Dawn comes, rosy fingered, and scholars have expressed surprise that the number of hymns to her are, by comparison, few compared with some other gods, but the attention is drawn in the study not to the quality of the hymn, as revealing how it is that there is such consummately beautiful cadences associated with her, for which you would only need one, wouldn't you, you wouldn't need 25. The important thing is, isn't it remarkable, that we have so few hymns, and yet they are so wonderfully beautiful. What has the number to do with it at all is the thing that I could never get answered for myself in terms of the environment in which I studied Sanskrit and the Veda. The important thing is to find out which god, - in this case Indra - is, in the Rig Veda, mentioned most often. Now, of course, I'm not trying to suggest that quantity should be overlooked, by no means, but if the question had been approached the way you have been enquiring into it, deeper, deeper, deeper, then, I think, scholarship would have had a very, very different career. We should have been taught how to sit and let that hymn disclose itself, and stop measuring it.	安：黎明到来的方式，像有玫瑰色的手指那样，而学者们觉得很惊讶，黎明的赞美诗，相对来说是那么少，特别是与神明的赞美诗比较起来，但在研究中注意力却没有放在赞美诗的品质上，比如揭示这些赞美诗为何会有如此圆满优美的韵律是与黎明相关的，这样的赞美诗你只需要一首，是吧，你不会需要25首。重要的是，它是那么的非凡，虽然我们只有几首赞美诗，然而它们是那么精彩绝伦地美妙。它的数量究竟与此有什么关系，在我学习梵文和吠陀的环境中，我永远都找不到答案。重要的是找出哪一个神 ——在这事情上是因陀罗—— 在《梨俱吠陀》中是被提到最多的。现在，当然，我不是试图建议数量应该被忽视，绝不是，但如果探索问题的方式能像你那样深入，深入，再深入，那么，我想，学术研究可能会有一番非常非常不同的面貌。我们应该被教导如何安坐下来，让那些赞美诗呈现自己，停止去衡量它们。
39:19	K: Yes, sir. A: Yes, yes, please do go on.	克：是的，先生。安：是的，是的，请继续。
39:21	K: That's what I am going to say. You see, when discussing beauty and passion and sorrow, we ought to go into the question also of what is action? Because it is related to all that. A: Yes, of course.	克：那正是我要说的。你知道，当讨论美、激情与悲伤时，我们也应该深入探究什么是行动？因为行动与这一切是相关联的。安：是的，当然。
39:42	K: What is action? Because life is action. Living is action. Speaking is action. Everything is action, sitting here is an action, talking, a dialogue, discussing, going into things is a series of actions, a movement in action. So what is action? Action obviously means acting now. Not having acted or will act. It is the active present of the word 'act', 'to act', which is acting all the time. It is a movement in time and out of time. We will go into that a little bit later. Now what is action that does not bring sorrow? You follow? One has to put that question, because every action, as we do now, is either regret, contradiction, a sense of meaningless movement, repression, conformity, and so on. So that is action for most people: the routine, the repetition, the remembrances of things past, and act according to that remembrance. So unless one understands very deeply what is action, one will not be able to understand what is sorrow. So action, sorrow, passion, and beauty. They are all together, not divorced, not something separate with beauty at the end, action at the beginning. It isn't like that at all, it is all one thing. But to look at it, what is action? As far as one knows, now, action is according to a formula, according to a concept, or according to an ideology. The communist ideology, the capitalist ideology, or the socialist ideology, or the ideology of a Christian, Jesus Christ, or the Hindu with his ideology. So action is the approximation of an idea. I act according to my concept. That concept is traditional, or put together by me, or put together by an expert. Lenin, Marx have formulated and they conform according to what they think Lenin, Marx... And action is according to a pattern. You follow? A: Yes, I do. What's occurring to me is that under the tyranny of that, one is literally driven.	克：什么是行动呢？因为生活就是行动。生存就是行动。说话是行动。每一件事情都是行动，坐在这里是一种行动，说话、交谈、讨论、探索事物是一系列的行动，一种在行动中的运动。那么，什么是行动呢？行动显然意味着此刻正活动着。不是已经行动了或将要行动。它是“行动”、“去行动”这个词的主动现在时态，即一直在行动。它是在时间之中和之外的运动。我们稍后再深入这个问题。那么，什么是不会带来悲伤的行动呢？你理解吗？一个人必须提出这个问题，因为每一个行动，我们现在所做的，不是后悔就是矛盾，是一种毫无意义的运动，压抑、遵从等等。大部分人的行动就是如此：例行公事，重复，对过去东西的记忆，然后根据记忆去行动。因此除非一个人非常深入地了解什么是行动，否则他不可能了解什么是悲伤。因此行动、悲伤、激情和美，它们都是一起的，不是分离的，不是分开的，美在最后而行动在开头那样。完全不是那样，它是同一个东西。但是去探究一下，什么是行动呢？就我们目前所知，行动是按照某个模式做出的，按照某个概念，或按照某种意识形态，共产主义、资本主义、社会主义的意识形态，或一个基督徒、耶稣基督的思想体系，或印度教徒的意识形态。因此行动是对某个想法的接近。我根据我的观念行动。这种观念来自传统，或者是被我组合在一起、被专家组合在一起的。列宁、马克思建立了某个模式，然后他们遵从列宁、马克思所认为的...... 行动是依据某个模式进行的。你理解吗？安：是的，我理解。我想到的是，在那种专制下，人完全是被驱使着的。
43:45	K: Absolutely. Driven, conditioned, brutalised. You don't care for anything except for ideas and carrying out ideas. See what is happening in China - you follow? - in Russia.	克：完全正确，被驱驶、制约和虐待。除了理念和实现理念，你不关心其他任何事情。看看中国正在发生的事情——你理解吗？——在俄国发生的事情。
44:02	A: Oh yes, yes, I do.	安：噢，是，是的，我了解。
44:05	K: And here too, the same thing in a modified form. So action, as we know it now, is conformity to a pattern, either in the future, or in the past, an idea which I carry out. A resolution, or a decision, which I fulfil in acting. The past is acting, so it is not action! I don't know if I am... A: Yes, yes. I'm aware of the fact that we suffer a radical conviction that if we don't generate a pattern, there will be no order.	克：这里也一样，同样的事情以一种修饰过的形式进行着。那么行动，如我们现在知道的，是对于某一模式的遵从，无论是在未来，还是过去，遵照一个我要实现的理念，我要在行动中完成的一个决心或一个决定。过去在运作，所以那不是行动！我不知道我是否表达清楚了…… 安：是的，是的。我意识到了这个事实：我们被一个根深蒂固的信念折磨着，那就是，如果我们不形成一个模式，就不会有秩序。
45:08	K: So, you follow what is happening, sir? Order is in terms of a pattern.	克：因此，你了解现在所发生的事情吗，先生？秩序是依照某个模式建立的。
45:13	A: Yes, preconceived, yes.	安：是的，先入为主的模式，是的。
45:18	K: Therefore it is disorder, against which an intelligent mind fights, fights in the sense revolts. So that's why it is very important, if we are to understand what beauty is, we must understand what action is. Can there be action without the idea? Idea means - you must know this from Greek - means to see. See what we have done, sir. The word is 'to see'. That is, seeing and the doing. Not the seeing, draw a conclusion from that, and then act according to that conclusion. You see?	克：因此，那实际是无序，具有智慧的心灵会与之抗争的无序，抗争的意思是反抗。因此这就是为什么这点这么重要：如果我们要理解什么是美，我们也必须了解什么是行动。可能存在不带有想法的行动吗？想法意味着——你一定知道这来自希腊语——意味着去看。去看我们所做的，先生。这个词的意思是“去看”。那就是，去看并去做。不是只是看，然后从中得出结论，然后根据那个结论去行动。你明白吗？
46:26	A: Oh yes, yes.	安：噢，是的，是的。
46:29	K: Perceiving, from that perception draw a belief, an idea, a formula, and act according to that belief, idea, formula. So we are removed from perception, we are acting only according to a formula, therefore mechanical. You see, sir, how our minds have become mechanical.	克：觉察，并从这种觉察中得出一个信念、一个想法、一个公式，然后根据那个信念、想法和模式去行动。因此我们从觉察中脱离了出来，我们只是根据一个模式去行动，从而变得机械化。你瞧先生，我们的心智是如何变得机械化的。
47:06	A: Necessarily so. K: Yes, sir, obviously.	安：必然是这样的。克：是的先生，很明显。
47:12	A: I just thought about Greek sculpture and its different character from Roman sculpture, the finest of ancient Greek sculpture...	安：我刚刚想到了希腊的雕塑，它与罗马雕塑在风格上的不同之处是，最好的古希腊雕塑......
47:30	K: The Periclean age and so on. A: ...is extremely contemplative. It has sometimes been remarked that the Romans have a genius for portraiture in stone and of course...	克：在伯里克利时期等等。安：......是在冥思苦想的。人们有时提到罗马人拥有用石头雕塑人像的天赋并且当然......
47:45	K: Law and order, and all that.	克：规律与秩序，以及诸如此类的。
47:47	A: Yes, and of course one would see their remarkable attention to personality. But what occurred to me while listening to this, something that had never occurred to me before, that the Greek statue with which one sometimes asks oneself, well, the face doesn't disclose a personality. Perhaps the quiet eye recognised that you don't put onto the stone something that must come out of the act itself.	安：是的，而且我们当然也能看到他们对个性的显著关注。但当听到这些我想到的是，我以前从来没有想到过这些，那就是对于希腊雕塑我经常问我自己，那些脸从来不展现个性。可能那安详的眼睛认识到，你不需要把某些必须来自于行动本身的事物，放到石头中去。
48:40	K: Quite, quite.	克：是的，是的。
48:42	A: Because you're doing something that you must wait to come to pass. The Greeks were correct. It's an expression of that relation to form which is an interior form. Marvellous grasp of that. It's a grasp that allows for splendour to break out rather than the notion we must represent it. Yes, I am following you, aren't I?	安：因为你正在做着某件你必须要等待它发生并过去的事情。希腊人是对的。它表达了行动和外在形式之间的关系，那是一种内在的形式。他们对此有了不起的领悟，这一领悟让不可思议的东西喷薄而出，而不只是我们所必须描绘的理念。是的，我理解你讲的，是吧？
49:23	K: You see, sir, that's why one must ask this essential question: what is action? Is it a repetition? Is it imitation? Is it an adjustment between 'what is' and 'what should be' or 'what has been'? Or is it a conformity to a pattern, or to a belief, or to a formula? If it is, then inevitably there must be conflict. Because idea - action: there is an interval, a lag of time between the two, and in that interval a great many things happen. A division, in which other incidents take place, and therefore there must be inevitably conflict. Therefore action is never complete, action is never total, it is never ending. Action means ending. You know, you used the word 'vedanta' the other day. It means the ending of knowledge, I was told. Not the continuation of knowledge, but the ending. So now, is there an action, which is not tied to the past as time, or to the future, or to a formula, or a belief, or an idea, but action? The seeing is the doing.	克：你瞧，先生，这就是为什么一个人必须问这个根本的问题：什么是行动？它是一种重复吗？它是模仿吗？是在“现在如何” 与“应当如何”或“过去如何”之间的一种调整吗？或者，它是对一种模式、信仰或公式的遵从吗？如果是的话，那么就不可避免地会存在冲突。因为想法——行动：两者之间存在一种间隔，一种时间的滞后，在这个时间间隔中有很多事情发生了。有一种分裂，在分裂中其他的事情发生了，从而会不可避免地存在冲突。因此行动从来都不是完整的，行动从来不是完全的，它从来都未曾结束。行动意味着结束。你知道，你那天用了“吠檀多”这个词。有人跟我说那意味着知识的结束。不是知识的继续，而是结束。那么，是否存在这样一种行动，它不受缚于作为时间的过去或未来，不受制于某个模式、信念或想法，而只是行动呢？看到就是行动。
51:29	A: Yes.	安：是的。
51:32	K: Now, the seeing is the doing becomes an extraordinary movement in freedom. The other is not freedom. And therefore, sir, the communists say there is no such thing as freedom. That's a bourgeois idea. Of course it is a bourgeois idea, because they live in ideas, concepts, not in action. They live according to ideas and carry those ideas out in action, which is not action, the doing. I don't know if... A: Oh yes, yes. I was just thinking.	克：那么，去看即行动，成了一种在自由中的非凡运动。其他的都不是自由。因此，先生，共产主义者说没有自由这种东西。那是一种资产阶级的想法。当然这是一个资产阶级的想法，因为他们活在想法、概念中，而不是行动中。他们依据想法而活然后在行动中实施那些想法，那不是行动、做。我不知道我是否表达清楚了。安：噢，是的，是的。我刚才在思考。
52:21	K: This is what we do in the Western world, in the Eastern world, all over the world: acting according to a formula, idea, belief, a concept, a conclusion, a decision, and never the seeing and the doing.	克：这就是我们在西方世界，在东方世界，在全世界所做的事情：根据一个公式、想法、信仰、概念、结论和决定去行动，而从来不去看并且行动。
52:43	A: I was thinking about the cat, the marvellous animal the cat. K: The cat, oh yes.	安：我刚才想到了猫，非常不可思议的动物，猫。克：猫，噢，是的。
52:51	A: Its face is almost all eye.	安：它的脸几乎全是眼睛。
52:56	K: Yes.	克：是的。
52:59	A: I don't mean that by measure with callipers, of course not. And we don't train cats like we try to train dogs. I think we have corrupted dogs. Cats won't be corrupted. They simply won't be corrupted. And it seems to me great irony that in the middle ages we should have burned cats along with witches.	安：我不是说用仪器去测量，当然不是。我们从来不像努力训练狗那样去训练猫。我想我们已经毁掉了狗。猫不会被毁掉。它们就是无法被毁掉。而对于我来说很讽刺的是在中世纪我们把猫和巫婆放一起烧死。
53:24	K: The ancient Egyptians worshipped cats.	克：古埃及人崇拜猫。
53:26	A: Yes. The great eye of the cat... I read sometime ago that the cat's skeletal structure is among mammals the most perfectly adapted to its function.	安：是的。猫那双奇特的眼睛..... 我以前读到过，在哺乳动物中猫的骨骼结构与其功能的匹配是最完美的。
53:42	K: Quite.	克：没错。
53:43	A: And I think one of the most profound occasions for gratitude in my life was the living with a cat, and she taught me how to make an end. But I went through a lot of interior agony before I came to understand what she was doing. It's as though one would say of her that she was performing a mission, we might say, without, of course, being a missionary in the ordinary sense of that word.	安：我认为我生命中最意义深远的时刻，最感激的时刻，就是和一只猫一起生活，她教会了我如何结束。但我内心经历了很多的苦恼直到我了解到她在做什么。好像一个人会这样说她，我们也许会说，她正在布道，当然，她并不是通常意义上的“传教士”。
54:41	K: Yes, sir, you see, one begins to see what freedom is in action.	克：是的，先生，你知道，一个人开始看到在行动中的自由是怎样的。
54:55	A: That's right.	安：对的。
54:58	K: And the seeing in the doing is prevented by the observer, who is the past, the formula, the concept, the belief. That observer comes in between perception and the doing. That observer is the factor of division. The idea and the conclusion in action. So can we act only when there is perception? We do this, sir, when we are at the edge of a precipice, the seeing danger is instant action.	克：行动中的“看”被观察者所阻碍，观察者就是过去、公式、概念和信念。这个观察者处在觉察和行动之间。这个观察者是分裂的因素，是行动中的想法和结论。因此我们能只有当存在觉察时才行动吗？我们会这样去做，先生，当我们在悬崖边时，看到危险就是立刻的行动。
56:07	A: If I remember correctly, the word 'alert' comes from the Italian, which points to standing at the edge of a cliff.	安：如果我没记错的话，“警觉”这个词来自意大利文，意指站在峭壁边上。
56:15	K: Cliff, that's right.	克：峭壁，是的。
56:19	A: That's pretty serious.	安：那是非常严肃的事情。
56:22	K: You see, it's very interesting. We are conditioned to the danger of a cliff, of a snake, or a dangerous animal, and so on, we are conditioned. And we are conditioned also to this idea: you must act according to an idea, otherwise there is no action.	克：你看，这非常有趣。我们被悬崖的危险、蛇的危险或危险的动物等等所制约，我们受到了制约。我们也被这个想法所制约：你必须根据一个想法行动，否则就没有行动。
56:50	A: Yes, we are conditioned to that. K: To that.	安：是的，我们受到了这样的制约。克：受到了这种制约。
56:51	A: Oh yes, terribly so. K: Terribly. So we have this condition to danger. And conditioned to the fact that you cannot act without a formula, without a concept, belief, and so on. So these two are the factors of our conditioning. And now, someone comes along and says, look, that's not action. That is merely a repetition of what has been, modified, but it is not action. Action is when you see and do!	安：噢，是的，非常严重的制约。克：非常严重。因此我们受到了危险的制约。并且我们也被这个事实制约：没有模式，没有概念、信仰等等，你就无法行动。因此这两者是制约我们的因素。现在，有个人走过来说，请看，那不是行动。那只是对过去的重复、修改了一下，但那并不是行动。行动就是你看到了便去做！
57:31	A: And the reaction to that is: oh, I see, he has a new definition of action.	安：而对此的反应是：噢，我知道了，他对这个行动有了新的定义。
57:37	K: I'm not defining. A: Yes, of course not.	克：我不是在定义。安：是的，你当然没有。
57:40	K: And I've done this all my life. I see something and I do it. A: Yes.	克：我一生都是这样做的。我看到某个事情然后就去做。安：是的。
57:46	K: Say, for instance, as you may know, I am not being personal or anything, there is a great big organisation, spiritual organisation, with thousands of followers, with a great deal of land, 5000 acres, castles, and money, and so on, were formed around me, as a boy. And in 1928 I said, 'This is all wrong'. I dissolved it, returned the property, and so on. I saw how wrong it was - the seeing; not the conclusions, comparison, say, how religions have done it. I saw and acted. And therefore there has never been a regret.	克：例如，你可能知道， ——我不是在突出我个人—— 有一个巨大的组织，灵性组织，有成千上万个追随者，有很多土地， 5000英亩，城堡，钱等等，围绕着我建立起来，在我还是个男孩的时候。而在1928年我说：“这是完全错误的。”我解散了它，返还财产，等等。我看到那个组织是多么错误——那是一种看到；不是结论、对比，说，各种宗教是如何做的。我看到了就去行动了。因而从来不存在后悔。
58:33	A: Marvellous. K: Never been said, 'Oh, I have made a mistake, because I shall have nobody to lean on'. You follow? A: Yes, I do. Could we next time, in our next conversation, relate beauty to seeing?	安：了不起。克：从来没有说： “噢，我犯了一个错误，因为那样我就没人依靠了。” 你理解吗？安：是的，我理解。在下一次谈话中，我们能否把美和看联系起来？
58:48	K: I was going there. A: Oh, splendid. Yes, that's wonderful.	克：我正要说到那里。安：噢，那太棒了。是的，非常棒。