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AM71DYP - What is the root of isolation?
Amsterdam - 26 May 1971
Discussion with Young People



0:00 This is J. Krishnamurti’s discussion with students in Amsterdam, 1971.
0:07 What shall we talk about? What would you like to talk over together? Questioner: We have seen that when we have a quiet mind then changing is really no problem at all, but what about when we lose this quality of mind? Do we have to build up a new structure of existence? Which cannot be right – and we are back in confusion.
0:28 K: Are you saying, sir, that when we have a quiet mind we have no problems, but we cannot have that quiet mind all the time and problems arise?
1:00 And so how to deal with the problem? How to deal with problems, rather than maintain or try to maintain the quiet mind.
1:12 Is that the question?
1:15 Q: Yes.
1:18 K: How do you resolve any problem?
1:30 How do you set about to resolve any problem? What do you do?
1:34 Q: Just looking at it.
1:41 Q: You have to have a quiet mind.
1:45 K: No, sir. No, sir. Just a minute. One has a problem…
1:49 Q: Pull it apart.
1:50 K: Pull it apart?
1:53 Q: Yes, sir.
1:55 K: How do you do it? Take a problem. Take any problem that you have – let’s discuss it, shall we? What problem have you? (Laughter) Q: Just the right relationship between people.
2:17 We have no peace on earth.
2:20 K: You have no... Isolation between people and therefore no peace in the world. Now how do you resolve this isolation? There is isolation between you and another.
2:41 How do you resolve it? If that is a problem, if that is a thing that you consider most serious, how do you resolve it?
2:51 Q: To see what is the problem.
2:56 K: We are saying, sir, what is the problem? We are saying that the problem is man is so fragmented, broken-up, isolated, and therefore he creates wars and so on.
3:17 Therefore there is no peace. And the questioner says: how am I to resolve this problem of isolation, separation?
3:31 Right, sir? Now how do you resolve it? Go on, it’s your…
3:42 Q: By asking ourselves why we feel it.
3:49 K: Why do you feel it? Go into it. Why do you feel isolated? Do you know you are isolated or is it just an idea?
3:58 Q: It’s just an idea.
4:03 K: It’s just an idea, isn’t it? I am asking you. Is it an idea or is it a fact?
4:09 Q: A fact.
4:10 K: No, do let’s be clear on this point.
4:14 Q: I think it’s a fact just because it is an idea. Just because you think it’s a fact, it’s a fact in its consequences.
4:25 K: But that’s why, sir, I am asking, when you say, ‘I feel isolated,’ is that a fact?
4:33 Is that what you feel or is it an idea somebody has suggested to you?
4:40 You see the difference? I don’t have to be told that I am hungry. I know I am hungry. And if I am told I am hungry that is quite a different matter, isn’t it? Now which is it? Do you feel isolated? Is that an actual reality to you?
5:03 Q: Yes.
5:04 K: Then what do you do? Stay with it?
5:16 Love it? Remain isolated and talk about peace in the world?
5:20 Q: Try to… (inaudible) K: Do tell. Please, sir, discuss it.
5:29 Q: You try to make contact.
5:30 K: You make contact. How do you make contact when you are isolated? I can make contact over the wall, but I am this side of the wall.
5:45 I can put out my hand over the wall but I still remain behind the wall.
5:53 Q: Destroy the wall.
5:56 K: How do you do it, sir? Go into it. (Laughter) Q: Being aware of it.
6:01 K: How do you break down your isolation?
6:03 Q: We have to see what isolation means.
6:06 K: Let’s begin. You say you are isolated. You know you are isolated. That’s a fact. And that isolation brings conflict, war; there is no peace.
6:25 Realising that how do you set about resolving isolation?
6:33 Come on, sirs, you are supposed to be young, therefore to discuss.
6:39 Q: You must be aware of the isolation.
6:42 K: You must be aware of it. How? Are you aware of it?
6:51 Q: Well, when I feel isolated I know I am isolated.
6:58 K: Now how do you proceed from there? How do you break up or accept or do anything about this isolation? What do you do?
7:09 Q: First you have to discover it and when you see it, you know, when you are aware of it, you can build something from that point.
7:17 K: No, wait. Are you aware of it? First let us find out if one is aware that one is isolated.
7:26 Q: When there are some problems about it, you know, you are isolated.
7:32 K: No, sir, is one isolated? What does it mean to be isolated?
7:36 Q: No contact with people.
7:42 K: What does it mean, sir?
7:44 Q: To stand apart from other people.
7:48 K: That means you are separate, lonely, a wall of resistance between you and another.
7:58 Q: You are not at the same level.
8:00 K: You are not at the same level. Now realising that, how do you break down that wall?
8:09 Q: You try to come to the same level.
8:14 K: How do you come to the same level?
8:17 Q: Don’t you first have to totally be your isolation?
8:24 K: I’m asking you, sir.
8:27 Q: Yes, that’s why I’m saying it.
8:31 K: How do you see the total isolation?
8:35 Q: By being it completely.
8:38 K: You are isolated now, aren’t you? Or you have no isolation, you are not separate from human beings.
8:52 Q: (Inaudible) K: I don’t quite understand.
9:09 I don’t quite follow that, sorry.
9:13 Q: Isn’t it because we are conditioned?
9:19 K: Sir, please, take the fact that you are isolated, you feel you are isolated.
9:30 Isolated from your parents, isolated because you are a younger generation than the older generation, isolated because you feel this is wrong, that is right – you know, all the rest of it.
9:43 How do you proceed to break down this wall of isolation?
9:47 Q: You must find the cause of the isolation.
9:51 K: Now, you say you find the cause of isolation. What is the cause of isolation?
9:55 Q: I think isolation is always a concentration upon the self, and concentration is always a restriction of awareness.
10:09 K: Yes, sir, but he suggested, he asked, what is the cause of isolation.
10:11 Q: It’s the me, I think.
10:12 Q: It’s the inspiration that you as yourself are a unit and that you are not together with everything else, that you are a separate self.
10:29 K: Now what is the cause of it, sir? We know you are a separate self – the me is separate from you. What is the cause of this?
10:37 Q: Duality.
10:39 K: And what is the cause of duality?
10:49 Q: The friction between the speed of brain cells and the perception of the phenomenon.
11:26 K: Now wait a minute, sir – we are asking what is the cause of this isolation.
11:35 You say the me, the I, the brain cells themselves are isolated.
11:44 What is the cause of all this? What is the root of this isolation?
11:47 Q: Not being open to any other person.
11:50 K: Yes, sir, but what is the root of it?
11:53 Q: (Inaudible) Q: Escape from the facts.
11:55 Q: Knowledge.
12:00 Q: Well I think it is egoism.
12:10 K: Egotism?
12:11 Q: You think of yourself and of nobody else.
12:13 K: Yes. You suggest the cause is that you think about yourself and nobody else. Is that the root of it? Let’s be clear. Don’t guess. You follow what I mean? (Laughs) Let’s all see the root of the cause together.
12:36 Not you have an opinion differently from me or from somebody else – let us together find out what is the cause of this terrible isolation that man exists in.
12:50 Q: As a biological unit I am one person and not more persons.
13:00 K: Biologically…
13:01 Q: ...I am one person.
13:02 K: You are one person. You are a man and somebody else is a woman.
13:07 Q: I am one entity myself and I have no connection with others.
13:16 K: Is isolation due to biological causes?
13:23 Q: Is it not due to the background?
13:28 K: Is it due to the culture, the background, the conditioning? You see how many opinions we have now? Now which opinion are you going to take? (Laughter) Q: I think they are all right in a certain way.
13:45 K: And somebody says they are all right in certain ways.
13:48 Q: I think it’s quite a complex situation which you can’t define in a few words.
13:56 K: Now we’re going to find out, sir, if we can this evening what is the real, root cause of this separation.
14:08 Not opinion – you follow? – not what you think, I think or somebody else thinks. The cause of it, the real root of it, the truth of the matter.
14:18 Q: Is it fear?
14:19 Q: Maybe everybody has an idea about it because he has past experiences.
14:27 Everybody is saying something. One says fear, another person says he’s a biological unity, so everybody is already thinking what it should be and therefore he cannot discover what it really is.
14:40 K: Quite. Therefore you are suggesting: don’t put forward opinions.
14:43 Q: Yes, because if you have an opinion already you cannot…
14:47 K: Therefore don’t put forward an opinion. Then can you put aside your opinions?
14:54 Q: Maybe we come out when we analyse or examine the people that are not isolated.
15:00 K: That’s rather difficult, isn’t it? Because you may think that I am not isolated and I’m stuck. Proceed, sir. Look, first of all, isn’t there isolation nationally?
15:25 Isn’t one of the causes of isolation nationalism? No?
15:30 Q: No.
15:32 K: Yes?
15:34 Q: No.
15:36 K: No? Nationalism, racial differences, linguistic differences, religious differences – right?
15:49 – differences in belief, differences which separate man, because you have certain experience and I have certain experience, my experience is much bigger than yours and so on.
16:06 Right? There is intellectual separation. So realising all this, what do you do?
16:17 That man, geographically, nationally, religiously, in family, in name, in character and so on, all this has brought about separation between human beings.
16:34 Right? That’s a fact, isn’t it? It’s not an opinion, is it? What do you say? Is it an opinion?
16:41 Q: It’s a fact.
16:43 K: I am glad. Thank God! Now, what do you do about it?
16:49 Q: But separation is not the same as isolation.
16:50 K: Wait, it comes to the same thing. You can separate yourself more and more and more till you become isolated. It is the same movement. Now, realising that isolation – we’ll go into it deeper, presently – comes through linguistic, national, religious character and so on, brings about this differentiation, ultimately leading to isolation.
17:31 Realising that, what do you do? Do you cease to be a Dutchman?
17:39 Q: I think you should realise that these causes of isolation don’t have any real value.
17:46 K: Wait, sir. How do you proceed? Proceed. Do you throw off the…
17:52 Q: In yourself, that these causes don’t have any value, you can start trying to live without these.
18:02 K: Will you do that? Because they have no value, have you thrown off the valueless accretions? Will you be Catholic, Protestant, you know, all the rest of it?
18:23 Q: Can we be isolated and at the same time see the isolation?
18:45 I mean, one moment there is the feeling of isolation and the next moment there is the thought, ‘I am isolated.’ K: I don’t quite…
18:59 What are you saying, sir? I don’t quite follow.
19:12 Q: Can one realise at the same moment that he is isolated when he is isolated?
19:14 K: Oh, I see. Can you be aware at the moment of isolation that you are isolated? Is that the question? At the moment of being isolated, to feel it.
19:30 Is that it, sir?
19:31 Q: Yes, sir.
19:32 K: Don’t you feel that now? Don’t you feel that you are isolated? When I am a Hindu and I call myself a Hindu, I am isolated both linguistically and psychologically, non-linguistically, and deeply, much more, non-verbally.
19:59 I feel that when I call myself a Hindu.
20:07 No? Do you call yourself a Buddhist, a follower of Zen, Catholic, Protestant?
20:19 Obviously, it means isolation, doesn’t it?
20:23 Q: Or separation.
20:26 K: Or separation, yes.
20:29 Q: We cannot see the isolation clearly when we are ourselves a part of that isolation.
20:41 K: You are saying we have to separate ourselves to look at ourselves – is that it?
20:50 Q: Yes. (Pause) K: Can you separate yourself from your conditioning?
21:08 You are that conditioning, aren’t you? Come on, sirs.
21:14 Q: It is not a question of separating.
21:21 K: Sir, look, I am born in India among a certain group of people called Brahmins, and how am I to separate myself from that conditioning?
21:42 Is the conditioning different from me? Or I am the conditioning. Come on, sir.
21:52 Q: I think we are conditioned.
21:56 K: We are that conditioning, aren’t we? We can’t separate ourselves. So come back. Now do you feel isolated because you are a Dutchman, Frenchman, English and so on?
22:12 No?
22:13 Q: No. Maybe not here but maybe when we are in another country we will probably.
22:21 K: Because you are living in Holland you don’t feel separated because you can speak Dutch, identify yourself with the country or with the people or with the group or with the community or with the family, therefore there is no separation, no isolation.
22:40 Is that it?
22:41 Q: (Inaudible) K: Now just a minute, just a minute. Go slowly. Go slowly. When you identify yourself with a group of people, with a community, with a group of ideas, aren’t you separating yourself?
22:58 Q: Yes.
23:00 K: So don’t you find that any identification with something is a form of isolation?
23:10 No? Come on, please.
23:16 Q: I think that we are all human beings. It doesn’t matter whether you’re a Dutchman or...
23:21 K: In theory, it’s perfect. And that’s what we say in words, but actually we kill each other.
23:29 Q: (Inaudible) K: No, I’m saying, madame, I’m saying – please, consider this – when you identify yourself with a group, with a family, with certain activity – socialist activity or communist, or throwing a bomb, or whatever it is – when you identify yourself with a family, with a group, with a community, with a series of activities or beliefs, that very identification is a form of isolation.
24:10 No?
24:11 Q: Yes.
24:12 K: Isn’t that so?
24:14 Q: Inside the group, no. If you’re outside, yes.
24:20 K: Wait, sir. Among the group you feel not isolated because together you are all long-haired or short-haired, together you are all whatever it is.
24:33 But you are separating yourself from the rest. And in the group you are fighting each other, obviously.
24:41 Q: But therefore I’m not isolated. I am perhaps supposed to keep my mouth shut – I’m not too young – but I think there is a big difference between separation and isolation.
24:44 K: Sir…
24:45 Q: What you are saying is if you are a Roman Catholic or a Jew or a Hindu, nevertheless…
24:58 (inaudible) …I’m not feeling separated or isolated at all.
25:08 K: So that’s not your problem then?
25:13 Q: No, sir.
25:14 K: But I’m afraid that’s a problem those people raised.
25:18 Q: Maybe, I don’t know.
25:27 I mean, after all, identification is… (inaudible) K: Sir, just look at the issue, sir.
25:45 Q: (Inaudible)… very paranoid and feel very isolated.
25:48 K: Just look at the issue, sir. The question was raised: we want peace in the world and that peace is denied because we are isolated.
26:04 That was the question. And in understanding that question, going into it, we find that when there is any form of identification with something it inevitably creates a division, a separation, an isolation.
26:24 That’s what we have come to. If I identify myself with Buddhism or Catholicism, obviously I separate myself.
26:41 Q: Don’t people take part in groups in order not to be isolated?
26:54 K: That is, feeling isolated you join a group in order not to feel isolated.
27:02 But that group is isolated from another group.
27:06 Q: We are not aware of that.
27:10 K: Therefore be aware of it. I join your group and there is another group against your group.
27:19 Q: No.
27:20 Q: Not necessarily.
27:21 K: Sir, wait a minute. Not… (Laughter) We are the short-hair group or the older group and you are a different group. Isn’t this a fact in life?
27:34 Q: I don’t belong to the youngsters either but I think there is a group of adults, and younger people they want to be separated, I think.
27:55 K: Madam, I mean, we are not saying... we’re not asking which group is separate. Any group formation is separation. Whether it’s young, old, whether it is the establishment, not establishment.
28:05 Q: No, no, that’s not what I mean. I mean it is the behaviour in a certain way of the youngsters – they want to be separated.
28:21 K: No, madame, then they are...
28:23 Q: I’m not against it…
28:25 K: I’m not… We are just understanding the problem. Nobody is against anybody. We want peace in the world. (Laughter) So what is the question we are discussing? You want to break down this human isolation in relationship.
28:46 Right, sir? That’s what we started.
28:51 Q: Isn’t it natural to be isolated because everyone is born out of their parents?
29:07 K: Everyone is born?
29:10 Q: Not everybody is the son of the same father.
29:11 Q: Everyone has his own parents so everyone is born from different parents and one is isolated thereby.
29:15 K: No, I think we go much deeper than that, isn’t it? I mean, the isolation business is much more deep than being born of certain parents.
29:32 No?
29:33 Q: (Inaudible) K: Well, sir, you certainly won’t have peace all right.
29:42 Q: I can lie in one bed with somebody and still feel very isolated, at the same time knowing that… (inaudible) …and she knows it also and we still can feel very isolated.
30:03 K: Yes, sir, I understand you can feel isolated in a group – you know.
30:11 One is isolated. What do you do about it?
30:19 Q: You don’t have to run away from yourself.
30:41 Q: What makes isolation so terrible then?
30:46 K: What makes isolation so terrible? Don’t you know why isolation makes for war, isolation makes a great disturbance in the world, you become neurotic if you are isolated?
31:05 How are we to discuss this, sir, if you don’t stick to one point?
31:11 Q: I think one should look at isolation – not throw it away and not accept it, only look at it.
31:25 K: That’s what we are proposing: to look at it. I am isolated because I am a Hindu. I look at it. Is that the only reason of my isolation, because I am a Hindu?
31:44 Q: No, you have been told always you are you and that is him, and that for example, your clothes, your house, your business…
31:55 K: Yes, sir, that’s part of it, that’s part of it: my country, your country, my God, your God, my business, your business – all that is included.
32:01 Q: Yes, but that’s what’s making the whole social structure. For example, if you let that go nothing will be left and the whole world is upset.
32:11 K: Yes, but, sir, go into it a little deeper. Which is, we are asking why this isolation exists and whether it is possible to be free of this isolation.
32:26 That is a real human question. You know? This is a question that is troubling the whole world.
32:39 Q: (Inaudible) …negation.
32:48 K: Look, let me – may I go into it a little bit?
33:02 If I am born in India or in communist Russia, I have identified myself with the country, with the family, with the whole social, biological, communal system, the culture.
33:20 That culture is me. Right? That culture separates me from the culture which you have. Now what shall I do? I realise the two cultures are in opposition. Right? Do I come over to your culture and you come over to my culture?
33:44 Q: No.
33:46 K: Oh my God! Just wait. Listen to what I am saying, don’t agree! (Laughter) Do I become Catholic and you become Hindu?
34:02 Q: No.
34:05 K: So exchange is not the way out. Therefore what shall I do? Please, go... I’m asking you, what shall I do?
34:17 Q: You are talking about switching over to something that is opposed, but the idea is to eliminate the idea of opposition.
34:24 K: Therefore what shall I do?
34:25 Q: Synthesis.
34:27 K: If I am a Hindu and you are Muslim – you follow?
34:32 Q: (Inaudible) K: Wait, sir, listen to it, listen to it! How do I break this division?
34:35 Q: But there is no division. You have to see that the division doesn’t exist, that it’s a…
34:42 Q: No.
34:44 K: What do you mean? They are killing each other in Pakistan. They are killing each other in Vietnam.
34:53 Q: Yes, I know.
34:54 K: So division does exist.
34:56 Q: Well, I think it’s some neurotic impulse that…
35:01 K: Sir, take it, take it! It may be some neurotic impulse. It may be some capitalistic drive, it may be communist – etc. – but it is a fact.
35:14 So what shall I do?
35:15 Q: We must identify with universal values that do not separate us, like kindness and generosity.
35:23 K: But that’s just an idea – I’m still a Hindu.
35:27 Q: But you don’t have to act like a Hindu, you can act like a person.
35:33 K: How shall I, being a Hindu or a Jew or a Muslim or a Buddhist, communist, how shall I break down this wall of separation?
35:44 Q: I think you start trying on your own.
35:45 Q: You say that I am a Hindu or a Jew or – or, or – but I think you have to say you are this and this and this and this and all – you are not separated.
35:54 But you think, we think, that we are separated.
36:02 K: No, but, sir, (laughs) if you didn’t think then you wouldn’t be separated.
36:13 You are not meeting my point.
36:14 Q: Don’t you imply in your own ideas the fact that someone else has other ideas existing and that the ideas of someone else may be as valuable as your own ideas, at the same level, and if everybody does this I think we’re speaking at the same…
36:32 K: ...language.
36:34 Q: Language, yes.
36:36 K: That is, if you and I have a common belief, in that there is no separation?
36:44 Is that what you’re saying?
36:45 Q: Well, yes. In its consequences, yes.
36:49 Q: (Inaudible) K: Is that what you are saying, that if you and I…
36:55 Q: I’m saying that we must imply in our own ideas that the idea of someone else may be as valuable as our own ideas.
37:06 K: Do you do that?
37:08 Q: Well, you can try.
37:12 K: I can try and not be a Hindu or be something else. Sir, I am asking what is the root cause of all this division amongst people?
37:27 Q: I say stop identifying yourself with something.
37:32 K: You stop – the lady suggests stop identifying yourself with something.
37:39 Right? Do you stop it?
37:41 Q: Well you have to.
37:43 K: No. You say, ‘Well I have to.’ Do you then stop it?
37:48 Q: You can try.
37:51 Q: You must first see the reality of it, that when you identify yourself with a group that you’ll be separated.
38:05 When you don’t see that you don’t have to stop for it.
38:09 K: Yes, sir. That is, do you see the truth that identification with something is one of the causes or perhaps the mayor cause of isolation?
38:19 Q: (Inaudible) K: Do you see the truth of it?
38:22 Q: Yes. Then it stops.
38:24 K: No, wait, sir. Do you see the truth of it?
38:28 Q: Yes, sir.
38:30 Q: Yes.
38:32 Q: I see it.
38:34 K: Do you see the truth of it as you see the truth that a poisonous snake is the most dangerous thing?
38:42 Or is it just an idea?
38:44 Q: But isn’t thought the only cause of isolation?
38:51 Because in deep sleep when there is no thought at all there is no single feeling of isolation.
39:04 K: Then how do you stop thinking?
39:06 Q: Look at it.
39:08 Q: Being like in deep sleep.
39:11 K: Go to sleep? (Laughter) Oh my God, this is the most fantastic...
39:20 Go to sleep? (Laughter) Q: (Inaudible) …because we are altogether different… (inaudible) K: We are altogether different from each other?
39:40 Q: Yes.
39:41 K: Is that so? Because you have a different face, you are taller, a little more lighter skinned – are you so very different from me?
39:54 Q: We are all different.
39:57 K: Are we? Are you so different because you have a beard, you have long hair or you are older or younger? Are you so very different from me? You have the same problems as me.
40:07 Q: Yes.
40:08 K: The same misery, same conflict.
40:09 Q: Yes, but there is a different resolve for…
40:14 K: Wait, sir. You see, you don’t stick to one point, which is, identification with a group inevitably separates, brings about conflict, is isolation.
40:32 Do you see the truth of it?
40:34 Q: Yes.
40:37 Q: You have to make a difference.
40:40 K: Madame, do you see the truth of it?
40:44 Q: No. You cannot distinguish between the sociological and the psychological.
41:01 The difference between isolation and separation.
41:10 Isolation is a psychological problem and separation is a problem of sociology.
41:20 K: Madame, we said that. We said it’s a movement, division, separation, differences, duality – all that leads to isolation. It’s the same movement only at a deeper level or a superficial level. We are talking at the deeper level, which is isolation. Where there is isolation… comes from identification.
41:44 Do you see the truth of it?
41:45 Q: That’s only one form.
41:48 K: Madame, écoutez, I’m asking something simple.
41:56 Q: Is it not possible not to look at the way you are different but the way you are not different from other people?
42:10 K: Instead of looking at the differences of people look at the similarity of people – is that it?
42:17 Q: Then you have an act of denying.
42:24 K: I don’t know. Similarity of people – are we all so very similar?
42:28 Q: (Inaudible) …there are things which are similar.
42:35 K: So, look for the similar things and forget the dissimilar.
42:40 Q: Try to find the other people in the similar things and from there we can try to understand and can learn about the other.
43:02 K: But don’t you see, madame, the isolation is a much deeper problem than merely finding out similarity and dissimilarity?
43:10 It’s a much deeper problem than just superficial similarities or dissimilarities, isn’t it?
43:17 Q: But when you see that then you discover a feeling of similarity and that is doing good to you and then you are not feeling isolated as ‘English’.
43:38 Q: Sir, is it so that in every choice there is isolation?
43:43 Q: Sir, isn’t it that we make our own isolation and if we look at it, that maybe there is no isolation?
43:52 K: Wait, how do you – I’ll answer your question – how do you make your own isolation?
43:56 Q: By making it.
43:57 K: How do you do it, madame?
43:59 Q: By believing it.
44:01 Q: By having opinions.
44:02 Q: You are afraid of being alone and being very vulnerable so you identify with others.
44:26 Q: You are always trying to defend yourself.
44:39 You are afraid that the other person will attack you or take something from you.
44:43 K: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. It’s all part of this isolation. You are still describing isolation – right? – in different words. But we have gone beyond that. Yes, madame?
44:52 Q: I think that when you look inwards, when you look at what you really are and you discover it, then there is no isolation.
45:09 K: Do you do that?
45:12 Q: I don’t think so.
45:15 K: Are we indulging in theories or in facts?
45:22 Look, sir, may I…
45:27 Q: May I come back to the thing what I was saying in the beginning of the discussion?
45:33 K: Yes, sir.
45:34 Q: We feel isolated. I feel it sometimes, some days, some years, because I am not standing in a right relationship.
45:43 But I am not able to make the right relationship to people – I feel that.
45:51 And so I think if I am in the right relationship in the first place to my parents – my parents give to me in the education a nice relationship – then perhaps I am able to give relationship to other people too.
46:06 K: Yes, sir.
46:08 Q: Other people feel not isolated, and I’m not isolated too then. But the root of to feel isolated is you are from the beginning not in the right relationship.
46:20 K: I agree.
46:21 Q: Perhaps it may be you are not in the right relationship to God or to your parents or to your wife or to your children, and then there will not be…
46:30 K: Now how do you establish right relationship?
46:34 Q: Well, as for myself?
46:37 K: Yes, sir, if you want to say it.
46:41 Q: Well, I have had a relationship with my parents and they have learnt me about relationship with God.
46:52 And he tells us, ‘Well, I have loved you from the beginning and also you can love other people.’ And if I am standing in the love of God I also can love other people.
47:09 K: Sir, just…
47:11 Q: And maybe they’ll come out of their isolation. I think so. I believe so, and I am happy. I feel so, that I...
47:18 K: No, sir, look….
47:19 Q: ...am in a relationship with my fiancée and in relationship with others.
47:22 K: Yes, I understand, sir. But look at the poor problem. Then the question is: how is one to have a right relationship with God, if God exists?
47:35 Q: With yourself.
47:38 K: Sir, you go from one thing to the other!
47:47 Q: How do we put our theories into practice?
48:07 (Pause) K: Do I give up?
48:13 Q: No.
48:15 Q: Never. (Laughter) Q: Help us.
48:20 K: I want to find out what my relationship is with another, and I find in looking at it I am separate, I am isolated from another.
48:37 Why? Why am I isolated from another? Whether it is my fiancée, my God, my love, my family – why?
48:46 Q: Because there is conflict.
48:49 K: No, please, don’t... (Laughs) You give me explanations. I can give you a dozen explanations. I want to find out if I can alter my relationship. Right? No? If I have wrong relationship with my father, you know, with my family, how do I alter it?
49:19 You don’t discuss that, you go off in theories.
49:25 Q: But the relationship is never one person, it’s always two persons.
49:34 How can you talk for one person if it’s about a relationship?
49:40 K: Look, madame, if I have right relation with one person, I will have right relationship with everybody, won’t I?
49:53 Q: Sir, to me it seems much more logical to have a right relationship with oneself.
50:12 K: Now, you see, what is oneself?
50:14 Q: I don’t know. (Laughter) Q: The other.
50:17 K: We are lost. You see? Can I have right relationship with another?
50:24 Q: Yes.
50:25 K: Please inquire, don’t assert, don’t say this or that – find out.
50:32 Can I have a right relationship with another so that he and I, she and I, or whatever it is, live in complete peace and harmony?
50:47 Q: (Inaudible) …for which you have affection, you can.
50:59 K: I can?
51:01 Q: Yes.
51:02 K: What do you mean by ‘can’?
51:04 Q: (Laughs) You are able to.
51:06 K: How?
51:07 Q: From on the inside – it’s not hard.
51:10 K: How do I do it, madame?
51:12 Q: You feel it.
51:14 K: What do you mean, I feel it? I have wrong relationship – wait a minute, madame – I have wrong relationship with my brother. Now that’s a fact.
51:26 Q: What’s the reason?
51:28 K: The reason? He’s much cleverer than me. (Laughter) No, do listen to it, please! He’s got more money, he’s much more brilliant, he has much more... he has character, he is capable, he is vital, he is, you know, alive and I’m dead.
51:47 Q: You’re jealous.
51:49 K: Call it what you like, madame! How do I establish right relationship with my brother?
51:56 Q: (Inaudible) (Laughter) K: You see, you just talk theories.
52:04 Q: Because you compare.
52:06 K: (Laughs) Sir…
52:07 Q: You try to get to know yourself.
52:11 K: Madame, écoutez, listen to me, please. How do I establish a relationship with my brother of whom I’m envious?
52:28 Q: What is envious?
52:32 Q: To see that it’s not a fact but a theory.
52:33 K: But it’s a fact. I’m envious of that man who’s got bigger car, bigger house, bigger intellect, more brains than I have.
52:39 Q: But that is only what you think.
52:41 Q: That’s not a fact, that’s a theory.
52:43 K: But I feel this, sir. Don’t say it’s a theory!
52:46 Q: You have to realise that, that you feel it.
52:48 Q: Look at his eyes. (Laughter) K: I give it up. I meet him every day. He is climbing the ladder of success, unfortunately, and I am not, and I feel jealous, envious.
53:09 That’s a fact, it is not a theory. I get angry. I hate him. Now what do I do?
53:21 Q: (Inaudible) Q: You like to identify yourself with him.
53:29 K: I identify myself with him?
53:34 Q: Yes, when you are jealous.
53:36 K: Do you do this when you are jealous?
53:39 Q: You like to do it.
53:41 K: You are all talking theories.
53:42 Q: You start taking away the things from him which make you different from him.
53:47 K: Sir, the fact is...
53:49 Q: I think that’s what you do when you are jealous.
53:52 K: I give it up.
53:53 Q: I think it’s not possible to do anything about it, for you are jealous. You hate him, so you cannot love him, it’s not possible.
54:01 Q: Sir, you are jealous and you compare yourself with another – is that true?
54:06 K: But I am comparing myself, sir. Don’t tell me: don’t compare, do identify yourself with him, accept him as he is.
54:17 But the fact is I dislike him. Right? He has got everything and I have no brains. What am I to do?
54:28 Q: Change yourself.
54:31 K: Tell me, sir, don’t give me theories!
54:37 Q: Accept that you haven’t got the brains.
54:41 Q: Go to the other brother who has less brains than you. (Laughter) K: You see, this is just a theory. You are just indulging in theories. I am starving, I want food and you give me words.
54:51 Q: You have to accept that you dislike him.
54:57 K: I have told him ten times.
55:02 Q: You have to believe in yourself.
55:07 K: Oh, lordy, you’re just… I see the young generation... At least, the... You indulge in theories, don’t you? You don’t face the fact. I am jealous. I am envious of you who are clever, bright, intelligent.
55:25 I am not. What shall I do?
55:28 Q: Accept it.
55:31 K: Accept it? I can’t accept it.
55:37 Q: You’ve got to live with it.
55:38 K: I am living with it. You see, you are all wrong doctors. (Laughter) May I take my coat off?
55:53 (Laughter) Sir, look, I have identified myself with my brother and my brother is very clever and I am not.
56:22 I have compared myself with my brother and I find I am dull. I have lived with him, seen him talk brilliantly and I have not, I can’t, I’m shy, reserved, rather dull, and I feel terribly hurt by this.
56:42 What shall I do?
56:43 Q: Ask your own self why one is jealous.
56:49 K: (Laughs) You are really quite...
56:51 Q: If you’re very dull, it’s very hard to do anything about it.
57:01 (Laughter) Q: You must not identify with your feelings.
57:03 K: That’s it, that’s it. You’re all giving me what... telling me what to do. You don’t do it yourself but you’re telling me what to do.
57:08 Q: But you asked us.
57:12 K: I asked because you are in that position, sir, all of you, aren’t you?
57:19 This is isolation. This is what brings conflict. Not only between human beings in their relationship but between peoples, between nations, between people who worship the same God or the same state.
57:37 So I see that I am dull.
57:45 Now how do I know I am dull? Because I have compared myself with my brother who is very clever. I have compared myself with you who are much more beautiful. How shall I... Now I realise that through comparison I bring about misery. Right? Now, can I stop comparing?
58:07 Q: Yes.
58:10 Q: No.
58:14 K: Mustn’t I stop comparing?
58:24 Can I live a life without comparing?
58:26 Q: You have to accept yourself as you are.
58:30 K: No, madame, I am asking you a question – stick to it.
58:33 Q: No, you can’t.
58:36 K: Comparing?
58:37 Q: No.
58:38 K: Why not?
58:40 Q: Because he is clever.
58:43 K: Why do I compare?
58:45 Q: Because you think it’s...
58:48 K: You’re not answering my question, sirs. I have compared with my brother, and my brother being more clever I have said I am dull.
59:00 Through comparison – please, follow this for two minutes – through comparison I have found I am dull.
59:08 And why do I compare?
59:10 Q: Because you are…
59:12 K: Please, look at it, don’t answer me! Look at your own comparison.
59:21 In your school haven’t you been compared with the other boy who is much more intelligent, who’s got more marks?
59:29 So, from the smallest age this comparison goes on.
59:37 Right? That painting is much more beautiful than that because that man is more famous than that man.
59:46 Q: Competition?
59:51 K: Competition. Why do I compete? You don’t answer, you see?
1:00:01 Q: Because you think it is normal.
1:00:07 K: Sir, just listen, sir. One is conditioned to compare through life. It begins with childhood and goes on right through till we die. I’m comparing myself with everybody – he is richer, he is poorer, that man is – etc., etc., – you know, compare, compare.
1:00:31 Wait, sir, you do this, don’t you?
1:00:35 Q: Yes.
1:00:37 K: You are more beautiful than I. You have got longer hair than I have got. You have fairer skin than I have. This awful comparison goes on. And if I don’t compare, what happens?
1:00:55 And why do I compare? Is that my conditioning from childhood, my education? Yes, sir?
1:01:02 Q: I think because you are unsure about yourself you compare with other people, and when you see you are more beautiful or stronger...
1:01:11 K: By comparing myself with others I become surer of myself?
1:01:16 Q: Because I feel insecure.
1:01:18 K: Insecure. Wait.
1:01:20 Q: Because I’m...
1:01:21 K: No, wait, sir, wait, wait, wait. Listen to it carefully. Because I feel I am insecure, uncertain, and therefore I compare.
1:01:33 Is that a fact? Or because I compare I feel inferior?
1:01:43 You see the point? If there was no comparison would I feel inferior?
1:01:49 Q: No.
1:01:50 K: Would I feel dull if there was no comparison?
1:01:58 So because I compare I feel inferior.
1:02:08 Because I compare I feel less heroic. I compare, and therefore dull. So stick to that one moment please. Now I want to see why I compare. All my life I have done comparison – with the heroes, with the saints, with the politicians, with the man in a bigger car – you know, all the rest of it.
1:02:35 Why do I do it? Is it my conditioning?
1:02:38 Q: It must be from a very young age.
1:02:43 K: It began when I was a child and I keep on repeating that?
1:02:47 Q: You miss something in yourself.
1:02:48 Q: The facts are like that and so you have to face them.
1:02:55 K: Do you face it? No, don’t say we’ll have to. Do you face the fact?
1:03:01 Q: It’s very difficult to face it.
1:03:04 K: Life is difficult.
1:03:05 Q: Yes, I know that very well.
1:03:08 K: So face the fact that where there is comparison there must be feeling of inferiority.
1:03:17 Where there is comparison there is a feeling of dullness. Now can I live without comparison?
1:03:24 Q: No.
1:03:25 K: No, don’t… If you say no, then it is finished. Can I stop comparing?
1:03:36 Q: Yes.
1:03:41 Q: When you are in the right relationship with another man, another being, is to accept you as you are.
1:03:50 K: No, sir.
1:03:51 Q: Then you can stop it.
1:03:52 K: No, I am not... That’s just a theory: if you are in right relationship then you… But here is a fact that I am envious of my brother through comparison, and I feel dull in comparison.
1:04:09 Now how do I stop comparing so that I am – what? – I am no longer dull or superior or inferior? How do I stop comparing?
1:04:21 Q: Stop it.
1:04:22 K: Do tell me.
1:04:24 Q: Best is to leave your brother alone and go somewhere else and where you don’t see your brother.
1:04:34 K: Oh, my Lord! I can’t live... Don’t, sir. It is not a question of my brother. I am jealous of all of you because you have long hair or short hair!
1:04:39 Q: But you are afraid to face the sort of world where you don’t need to compare anybody.
1:04:50 Q: You must know the value of yourself.
1:04:51 K: You’re not meeting my point, sir. You’re just theorising, telling me what I should do. What do you do when you are comparing?
1:04:58 Q: You miss something in yourself.
1:05:01 K: No, sir, you don’t. Because you compare… Look, sir, take one thing. I’m going to go through this. I compare myself with somebody who is cleverer than me. Then I say I am dull. Now if I do not compare, what happens? Am I dull?
1:05:20 Q: No.
1:05:21 K: Wait, find out, sir! Don’t say no.
1:05:23 Q: I stop wanting.
1:05:24 K: No. If I don’t compare, am I dull?
1:05:27 Q: You’re nothing if you don’t compare.
1:05:29 Q: You try to find something in which you are better than your brother.
1:05:48 There must be something at which you are better.
1:05:49 K: You see, you are not doing it for yourself, you’re telling me what to do.
1:05:56 You know, I have lived a life, all my life – if I may be personal – I have never compared myself with anybody.
1:06:04 Q: How did you do this?
1:06:07 K: How did I do it?
1:06:08 Q: Yes. (Laughter) K: I’ll tell you how I did it: because I didn’t compare, full stop.
1:06:17 Because it didn’t occur to me to compare myself with somebody.
1:06:22 Q: But other people do.
1:06:24 K: Please, sir, that’s why... Take the question. Please go into it. I compare myself with you who are cleverer, therefore I say I am dull. Just listen to this. If I don’t compare, what am I?
1:06:40 Q: You’re just yourself.
1:06:41 K: Wait!
1:06:42 Q: You don’t know.
1:06:44 Q: How can you deal with this problem if it’s not your problem?
1:06:48 K: I am doing it for you.
1:06:50 Q: (Laughs) Yes, but… (inaudible) Q: Perhaps you just tell us lies because you don’t know.
1:06:57 You don’t know about us. We all compare and you are the only man here in the room who never compares.
1:07:05 K: But I’m taking that, sir, I’m showing you. Because I have lived a life without comparison, I’m showing you what your life is, which is comparative.
1:07:14 Q: How do you know us?
1:07:15 K: How do I know you?
1:07:17 Q: How do you know how we compare? How do you know what...
1:07:19 K: I’m asking you, sir. Wait, sir. First I am asking if you don’t compare. And you said yes.
1:07:29 Q: We compare.
1:07:31 K: That’s good enough. I say because you compare there is conflict.
1:07:41 Not that I know you. Perhaps I do know you, because a human being who doesn’t compare becomes very sensitive and therefore is quite a different…
1:07:51 I won’t go into all that. You compare and therefore you call yourself dull or happy or superior or inferior because you compare.
1:08:05 Now can you stop comparing?
1:08:06 Q: Is there a way out anyway?
1:08:09 K: I’m going to show you, sir.
1:08:15 Q: You’re not satisfied with yourself.
1:08:24 Q: Don’t you compare because you’re different from everyone else?
1:08:29 K: No.
1:08:30 Q: You don’t compare because of that?
1:08:31 K: No.
1:08:32 Q: But the society is comparing you.
1:08:33 K: I’m not concerned with society. I don’t care two pins what they think. I don’t care two pins whether they think I am famous, ugly, beautiful, this or that. It doesn’t mean a thing to me.
1:08:37 Q: When you compare you are not satisfied.
1:08:42 K: Sir, on the contrary. Don’t put it that way. That’s not so. Psychologically it is not so. Because you compare you are not satisfied. Not because you are unsatisfied, therefore you compare. On the contrary. Because you compare you are unsatisfied – bigger radiator and the rest of it.
1:09:13 So…
1:09:14 Q: At this moment you have compared already for more than an hour our ideas and your ideas.
1:09:20 K: No, sir, I have not. Please, sir, I have not.
1:09:25 Q: I misunderstood.
1:09:29 K: As we live, most people, ninety-nine per cent of the people in the world live on comparison.
1:09:39 Now what takes place if you don’t compare at all? Go into it, sir.
1:09:43 Q: That you don’t know what you are.
1:09:52 K: I will suggest to you what to ask. If I don’t compare myself with you who are cleverer and call myself dull, if I don’t compare, am I dull?
1:10:10 Then what am I?
1:10:11 Q: You.
1:10:12 K: Don’t say it yet! What am I? What takes place if I don’t compare and call myself dull?
1:10:27 If I don’t call myself dull then what is taking place?
1:10:32 Q: I don’t know.
1:10:40 Q: You accept it.
1:10:43 Q: No conflict.
1:10:45 K: Would you do something, please? May I request you do something? You compare, don’t you?
1:10:49 Q: Yes.
1:10:50 K: Now stop comparing for two minutes and find out what happens if you don’t compare.
1:10:56 Q: You feel equal with everybody else.
1:11:01 K: No, no! What happens to you when you don’t compare?
1:11:06 Q: You become very quiet.
1:11:07 Q: Peace of mind.
1:11:09 Q: You become rather quiet, I think.
1:11:14 Q: You feel good.
1:11:18 K: You feel good?
1:11:20 Q: Yes.
1:11:21 Q: How can anything happen? How can you feel different or anything else have changed if you don’t compare?
1:11:25 K: I’m going to show you something, sir. Go into it with me! You are verbalising and remaining on the verbal level. Go a little deeper, sir. What takes place if you don’t compare? You know what comparison means? Measurement. Right? Measurement means time. ‘I will be that’ – that’s comparison.
1:11:57 So what takes place if you don’t compare? Am I dull? I am something entirely different, which is different from the thing which I have called dull because I have compared.
1:12:14 Right? Don’t you see this?
1:12:21 Q: You become very quiet.
1:12:28 Q: I feel isolated.
1:12:30 K: You see, sir, our difficulty is, if I may point out, you don’t do this. You don’t say, ‘Well, I am comparing. I want to stop it. I want to find out how not to compare, see what happens, see actually what takes place if I don’t compare myself with anything or with anybody.’ First of all I stop being envious, don’t I?
1:13:09 I stop being greedy, because greed means more.
1:13:17 I stop seeking power, position, prestige. Right? Therefore I live a different kind of life altogether. You see, you don’t do it. You talk about peace but you’re not peaceful.
1:13:40 Q: I think it’s a kind of love.
1:13:49 (Inaudible) K: A kind of love? When you are comparing yourself with somebody, is there love?
1:13:56 Q: You have to bring an offering to try to love the person.
1:14:08 K: We have gone off to something else. We’re not... Please, if you don’t mind, we are talking of something else, aren’t we?
1:14:15 Q: Why do we only talk about the brother we are envious of?
1:14:24 There are also brothers we like because of comparison.
1:14:30 K: Madame, I did not say that. I don’t compare with somebody who is less dull.
1:14:41 I’m always comparing myself with somebody who is more clever.
1:14:48 Isn’t our life based on comparison, on measurement?
1:14:55 Q: But yours isn’t.
1:14:56 K: Forget me, sir.
1:14:57 Q: We can’t.
1:14:58 Q: Why are you here?
1:15:01 Q: Because we’re looking to you for information.
1:15:06 K: I’m offering it to you, sir. I am trying to share it with you but you’re refusing it!
1:15:21 And I assure you most honestly and seriously I have never compared myself with anybody.
1:15:29 Do you know what that means? You are tremendously honest.
1:15:44 That means you don’t seek power, position, fame, notoriety – nothing.
1:15:52 Q: How can we see it in other people?
1:16:01 K: It’s fairly simple, isn’t it? So let’s proceed. If you compare – you see, sir, through comparison you’re isolating yourself.
1:16:18 Right? Right?
1:16:21 Q: Not completely, I think.
1:16:26 K: In what way, sir?
1:16:29 Q: I have to compare…
1:16:31 K: I compare…
1:16:32 Q: ...otherwise I’m staying or hanging on the… (inaudible) K: On the contrary. I’ll show it to you, I’ll show it to you. You say you must compare. If you don’t compare I stagnate.
1:16:43 Q: You can allow it yourself, I think.
1:16:47 K: Wait, just a minute, sir. You say through comparison there is progress, if you don’t compare you stagnate.
1:16:57 Now just take those two points. If you don’t compare there is no progress. Now progress in the sense technologically. Right? Now, is there progress psychologically? Technologically, of course, you have to measure two – you follow? – two techniques and say, ‘This is better than that; I’ll pursue that.’ Progress is along technological lines.
1:17:35 Now we are saying is there progress inwardly, psychologically? Or there is only ending, not going with the same thing.
1:17:53 Then the other: if you don’t compare you vegetate, you stagnate. Is that so? Is love comparison? Answer me, sir.
1:18:08 Q: No.
1:18:10 K: You talk a great deal about love, beauty, peace.
1:18:18 Is love comparative?
1:18:21 Q: No.
1:18:25 K: And is love stagnation? Come on, sir, answer me.
1:18:33 Q: There is perception.
1:18:37 K: Answer me, sir.
1:18:40 Q: No.
1:18:42 K: No? Is that an idea or a fact? Because you don’t compare therefore you love.
1:18:49 Q: No, I love because I compare.
1:18:57 K: Is that so? You compare the person whom you love with another person?
1:19:06 Do you?
1:19:07 Q: No, because you’re maybe the only person I don’t have to compare.
1:19:12 K: We are talking about – madame, we are talking about a life in which there is no comparison, what is involved in it.
1:19:29 You see, apparently you are silent because – I’m not judging you because that’s not my business – your life is based on comparison.
1:19:42 Therefore there is superior, inferior, more, less, and therefore there is conflict, therefore there is no peace.
1:19:55 And can you live a life without comparison? Be what you are. Right? Can you be what you are? Do you know what you are?
1:20:07 Q: No.
1:20:08 K: Then how can you be with what you are?
1:20:11 Q: You must...
1:20:12 K: No, no, not ‘must’ – that’s a theory. That gentleman said if you don’t compare you stagnate.
1:20:25 Is that so? I say on the contrary, you are stagnating because you are comparing.
1:20:36 Because in comparison there is conflict, there is envy, there is brutality – all the rest of it follows. That’s not living, that’s not vital. That is real decadence. Sorry! So I say: when you love do you compare? Or do you just love?
1:21:02 Q: What is love?
1:21:06 K: What is love? Wait, wait. What is love? How do you find out?
1:21:16 Q: To observe all things.
1:21:19 K: Don’t you find it out by seeing what it is not?
1:21:22 Q: No, by seeing what it is.
1:21:24 Q: You can’t see what it is.
1:21:27 K: How do you find out what it is?
1:21:30 Q: When you see the points in your mind and they are strong, and you observe the points in your mind, then the mind is quiet, and then perhaps you can see or discover what it is and what love is.
1:21:54 K: What love is. Now how do you get your mind quiet?
1:21:56 Q: Only observe.
1:21:58 K: How do you observe?
1:22:01 Q: (Inaudible) K: Do you observe with eyes that are comparative?
1:22:09 Q: No, not with…
1:22:10 K: Wait, wait, madame. Do you observe with eyes that are competitive?
1:22:16 Q: You can do it with your eyes too. It is the whole awareness.
1:22:28 Q: Without judging.
1:22:32 K: I’m asking you, sir, how do you observe?
1:22:42 How can you observe if you are committed to a certain belief?
1:22:50 If you are comparing all the time, how can you observe?
1:22:53 Q: Without opinion.
1:22:57 K: Without opinion. You must have... You can observe only when there is no opinion. Right? Haven’t you got opinions?
1:23:06 Q: Yes, sir.
1:23:08 K: Therefore what do you do with those opinions? Why do you have opinions? Come on, sir, all of you have opinions. Why have you got them?
1:23:22 Q: Because you compare.
1:23:24 K: No, no, don’t reduce everything to comparison. Why do you have opinions?
1:23:29 Q: Because they automatically come up.
1:23:33 K: Automatically come up? Why? The newspaper is full of opinions. Right? Your families – everything has opinion. What does that mean? What you think and don’t think. Why do you have opinions? What a burden it is, isn’t it, to have opinions?
1:23:52 Q: You get influenced.
1:23:55 K: You get information by opinion?
1:23:59 Q: Influenced. You know, everybody is telling you what is true or what is not true. You get influenced from your birth to your death.
1:24:08 K: Sir, that is a different question, isn’t it? I’m asking why you have opinions about anything.
1:24:14 Q: We are all indoctrinated by them.
1:24:17 K: Now, all right, having been indoctrinated, whether it’s communist, Catholic, Protestant, etc., indoctrinated, why don’t you put them away?
1:24:28 Q: You can’t do it because you are that.
1:24:36 You can’t do it because you’ve think that you are.
1:24:37 K: You say you are that opinion.
1:24:39 Q: You think that you are.
1:24:41 K: You think you are that opinion. Why don’t you get rid of them?
1:24:44 Q: You can’t do it because you are it and...
1:24:48 K: Then what will you do?
1:24:49 Q: To observe it and then you can lose all the things.
1:24:53 K: So can you by observing get rid of your opinion?
1:25:02 Q: No, you can’t, but you look at it.
1:25:10 K: What’s the point of my looking at it if I can’t get rid of my opinions?
1:25:13 Q: You are not identified with your opinions and then you lose your opinions.
1:25:21 K: You don’t identify yourself with opinions.
1:25:23 Q: …and then you lose them.
1:25:25 K: Who are you who is going to identify with the opinions or not identify?
1:25:33 Look, sir, why do you have opinions?
1:25:41 Why don’t you take merely facts and deal with that fact?
1:25:52 Look, there is war in the Middle East, there is war in Pakistan, there is war in Vietnam – that’s a fact.
1:26:03 Right? They are killing each other. That’s a fact. It’s not an opinion. But we have opinions about that fact, haven’t we? ‘War should not be.’ ‘The North Vietnam is better than South.’ ‘The Americans are dreadful’ You follow?
1:26:25 Opinions. Now can you look at the fact that there is war, which is violence?
1:26:34 Right? Then can you find out why human beings live in violence?
1:26:45 Not just during this era, but they have lived for five thousand years with war, historically speaking.
1:26:57 Now, why have human beings murdered each other for so many centuries?
1:27:04 It’s still going on. Why are human beings violent? Go on, sir, answer it.
1:27:07 Q: Because they compare.
1:27:08 K: No, no, no. (Laughs) Don’t reduce everything to comparison.
1:27:10 Q: Because they were highly frustrated about five thousand years ago.
1:27:20 K: Is that the reason that you kill each other, we are killing each other – highly frustrated?
1:27:28 Do you know what is happening in Pakistan? They are killing.
1:27:32 Q: Because they are afraid of each other.
1:27:36 K: Which means what? They are upset. One part of the country says this should not be, we must kill them.
1:27:51 You know this reason, don’t you, all through the world, why wars exist?
1:27:58 Q: Because I am aggressive.
1:28:01 K: So nationalities, economic divisions, religious divisions – all coming down, understand it more and more, which is, human beings are aggressive.
1:28:16 Right? Right? Isn’t that a fact? No?
1:28:22 Q: Yes.
1:28:23 K: Now why is a human being aggressive? And can that human being stop being aggressive? Sexually, you know, aggressive like an animal – why?
1:28:40 Q: Because he has energy.
1:28:42 K: He’s got plenty of energy. So have the animals.
1:28:46 Q: Desire.
1:28:47 K: No, sir. Go into it, sir. Why? Can you stop being aggressive? What is implied in that?
1:28:56 Q: Stop living.
1:29:01 Q: You use your energy in a wrong way.
1:29:06 K: Yes, sir, you use energy in the wrong way. Can you stop using the energy the wrong way? Don’t give me explanations – you understand? (Laughs) I’m also good at explanations, but I want to get...
1:29:25 I want to be free of this terrible thing called aggression which has brutalised man. So tell me what to do.
1:29:38 Not theories. I want to get rid of it completely in my system.
1:29:43 Q: Perhaps you can tell us, because we can tell ourselves…
1:29:47 K: I will tell you.
1:29:49 Q: Fine. (Laughter) K: But first go into it. First go into the question. Don’t wait for me to tell you, because then it just has no meaning.
1:29:59 Q: But, you see, we have no thoughts.
1:30:02 K: Therefore why haven’t you got thought about it? Why haven’t you thought about it?
1:30:05 Q: Because we are still unsure about it.
1:30:08 Q: It’s comparison.
1:30:12 Q: We are still a society who has learnt to compare, who has learnt to make war.
1:30:22 K: Quite right, sir. So why are human beings aggressive? Partly because they are afraid. Right? Isn’t it? If you are not afraid would you be aggressive? If you are assured of complete security outwardly as well as inwardly, there would be no fear.
1:30:47 Then would you be aggressive?
1:30:55 And is there such thing as complete security outwardly or inwardly?
1:31:02 Go on, sir. This is your life.
1:31:07 Q: Not for us, anyway.
1:31:08 K: What do you mean?
1:31:09 Q: Well, this security is not for the normal people.
1:31:17 K: So I am asking, sir, we all want security. That’s a normal thing. A brain can’t function without having complete security.
1:31:34 When there is no security the brain gets disordered, neurotic. So we must have physical security, mustn’t we? Mustn’t we?
1:31:46 Q: Yes.
1:31:47 Q: We must, yes.
1:31:50 K: Yes, sir. So how do we produce physical security for all human beings? Not just for a few Dutchmen – for all human beings? How do you produce it?
1:32:01 Q: Comparing.
1:32:03 K: No, don’t.
1:32:05 Q: Not comparing.
1:32:08 Q: I don’t understand. Comparing technologies…
1:32:12 K: Sir, look, sir, wouldn’t you say security, every human being – it is the right of every human being to have security?
1:32:26 And that security is destroyed when there are national divisions.
1:32:33 Right? National divisions means sovereign governments with their armies, with all that business.
1:32:42 Q: That’s correct, but how to solve this problem?
1:32:47 K: Wait. How do you solve this problem? By seeing the truth of it and you not being nationalistic.
1:32:53 Q: That’s only one man.
1:32:56 K: Wait! One man is good enough, sir.
1:32:59 Q: I don’t know. I don’t know it is. I don’t know.
1:33:05 K: I’ll show you. I’ll show you, sir. I’ll show you. One man, if you really understood this you will teach somebody else and therefore you will gradually... This is not just a one man show, it is together. It is not my show, it is not me that has achieved, but together see the falseness of all this.
1:33:29 Q: But that’s such a problem, sir. We live in a society. There is no security. You may be next time dead on the street or something.
1:33:42 K: Without a job. So how do we have physical security for every human being? By changing the system?
1:33:49 Q: No, by being aware.
1:33:55 K: By throwing the bomb at the establishment?
1:34:02 By creating a new structure run by the same old corrupt people?
1:34:13 You don’t even go into this.
1:34:14 Q: How do you change other people? What if you already think that you have reached the state that you feel that you have – how do you change other people?
1:34:25 K: I’m talking to you. Please listen to me.
1:34:27 Q: And can I be concerned about other people if I have already reached this state?
1:34:29 K: Yes, sir, much more. Why do you think I am sitting here going around the beastly world talking? (Laughs) Now, sir, if you don’t see it, who will see all this?
1:34:47 So forget ‘one person’ – what matters is that each one sees this fact, and then something else takes place.
1:34:57 So aggression is part of our inheritance because we have come to this through the animal.
1:35:09 The animals are, for their self-protection have to be aggressive. But we are supposed to be better than animals, which means we are supposed to be a little more intelligent. A little more – I don’t say tremendously more – a little more intelligent. And we should use that intelligence to see that man has physical security.
1:35:34 Not just in a few countries but right through the world. Which means we must have no nationalities, no separate religions.
1:35:47 Ultimately it means you and I have to change – right? – because we are human beings.
1:36:00 And we don’t want to change. We want to go on repeating the same pattern in a different way, that’s all. And that’s where the difficulty lies. What is the time, sir?
1:36:13 Q: Twenty-five to seven. (Pause in recording) Q: (Inaudible) ...been thinking and they have no thoughts of the past and no pleasure and desire, or maybe pleasure.
1:36:38 K: I think, sir...
1:36:39 Q: And they suffer as well.
1:36:41 K: Of course, sir. Of course, sir, because I don’t think... They say, biologists say, animals do think.
1:36:49 Q: Yes.
1:36:50 K: So what is the question, sir?
1:36:55 Q: Which law creates suffering for animals as they are supposed not to have thought?
1:36:59 Q: We can say we have in our hands with our karma that we get troubles and fear and all sorts of things, but animals they don’t think and they don’t react…
1:37:12 K: But, sir, animals do think.
1:37:14 Q: Yes, but…
1:37:16 K: Not like us.
1:37:17 Q: But say a dog on a chain on a winter night, why he has to be in that position? Is that our fault?
1:37:24 K: Of course it’s our fault.
1:37:25 Q: Who?
1:37:26 K: A human being.
1:37:27 Q: From us?
1:37:30 K: Isn’t it? First let’s become ourselves without aggression, live a different kind of life altogether.
1:37:43 I’m afraid I must stop, sorry.