Krishnamurti Subtitles

The endless cycle of action and reaction

Bombay (Mumbai) - 5 February 1984

Public Talk 2



0:50 Can we wait a little
till that noise goes by?
  
2:32 Now we can begin.
 
2:41 We were going to talk about,
weren't we,
  
2:46 if we can live in this world,
 
2:51 which is pretty insane,
 
2:55 if it is possible
to live without conflict.
  
3:07 And we have
accustomed ourselves
  
3:13 to make
every kind of effort,
  
3:17 to achieve,
not only biologically
  
3:25 but also externally.
 
3:30 Our society
is so constructed
  
3:34 that we have to make
tremendous effort
  
3:42 to have a vocation...
of imitation.
  
3:54 Can we talk
to each other quietly?
  
4:01 We are saying
that our society
  
4:08 is made
so that each one of us
  
4:13 have to make great
deal of effort
  
4:17 to have a job,
to have a career,
  
4:22 to accumulate money
for security, and so on
  
4:28 – a great deal of effort
is necessary,
  
4:32 school, college,
university, and so on.
  
4:38 And also
we have the concept
  
4:46 that inwardly we also
must make tremendous effort.
  
4:56 Effort implies control,
 
5:00 effort implies conflict,
 
5:08 inwardly, psychologically,
and outwardly.
  
5:15 To this state of things
we have become accustomed.
  
5:21 Religious people, business people
of every kind must make effort.
  
5:32 And in that effort there is involved
a great deal of energy,
  
5:39 in conflict, and so on.
 
5:47 We are going
to talk over together
  
5:50 – what a noisy place this is,
isn't it? –
  
5:59 we are going to talk over
together this question,
  
6:05 why we live in conflict,
 
6:09 why we have accustomed
ourselves to live in this way,
  
6:16 why human beings,
right throughout the world,
  
6:22 have not found a way
of living daily life
  
6:27 without all the turmoil,
all the anxiety, pain.
  
6:38 And we are trained in vocation,
which is imitation.
  
6:53 One can understand why we have
to make an effort externally.
  
7:01 In an overpopulated country
like this,
  
7:05 badly managed governments,
and so on,
  
7:10 we have to make an effort
to live, to have a job.
  
7:18 That's understood.
 
7:21 And we are asking why,
we human beings,
  
7:27 have to make inward effort.
 
7:32 In that is implied
control, conflict,
  
7:43 and various forms of struggle,
anxiety, and so on.
  
7:54 We are questioning
why human beings
  
7:59 have to make inward effort
at all,
  
8:02 have inward,
psychological conflict.
  
8:08 Is that question clear?
 
8:12 We are asking, is it necessary
for human beings
  
8:20 in their relationship
with each other
  
8:24 – because we cannot possibly
live alone,
  
8:30 even though you are a hermit
you are always related to somebody.
  
8:37 So, we are asking whether it is
possible to live in this world
  
8:45 of immense turmoil,
immense complexity externally,
  
8:53 whether we can live
without a single conflict. Right?
  
8:59 That is the question
we are going to ask.
  
9:04 The speaker is not asking
the question, you are asking,
  
9:10 because both of us are
taking the journey together.
  
9:16 If that is very clear,
we are, both of us
  
9:21 are going to enquire carefully
into this question.
  
9:28 As we said
yesterday evening,
  
9:33 we are not giving
a lecture, thank God !
  
9:38 Lecture implies giving you certain
information on a particular subject,
  
9:45 to instruct, to inform or to do
any kind of propaganda.
  
9:52 We are not doing
any kind of propaganda.
  
9:57 We are not trying to convince you
of anything. Right?
  
10:03 We are not trying
to instruct you.
  
10:09 And so, please, as most
of us are trained to obey,
  
10:19 trained to follow,
trained to accept,
  
10:26 if your brain
is so conditioned
  
10:30 you cannot possibly enquire
into this very complex question,
  
10:38 whether it is possible
to live in this world
  
10:42 without any sense
of conflict. Right?
  
10:49 So, please, you are asking
these questions of yourself.
  
10:58 The speaker is only
acting as a mirror
  
11:05 in which you see yourself.
 
11:10 When you see yourself in the mirror,
reflected exactly,
  
11:17 then you can
throw away the mirror,
  
11:21 destroy the mirror,
 
11:23 because you have seen
yourself very clearly.
  
11:27 So you need no longer have
a mirror, an interpreter,
  
11:33 a person who explains
or analyses. Right?
  
11:39 Do we understand each other
up to now,
  
11:41 that we are not doing
any kind of propaganda,
  
11:49 we are not trying
to convince you of anything.
  
11:55 On the contrary, we are saying
you must have doubt.
  
12:02 You must have
a great deal of scepticism
  
12:09 because doubt frees the mind
 
12:15 from all the accumulated
tradition,
  
12:20 all the accumulated nonsense
which we call religion.
  
12:28 Religion is something
entirely different,
  
12:31 which we will go into
a little later.
  
12:35 But to understand
this problem,
  
12:39 which is whether
we can live in this world
  
12:42 without a single breath
of conflict.
  
12:48 Probably you never asked
this question.
  
12:59 And probably you say
it is impossible
  
13:03 to live in this world
without conflict.
  
13:07 If you say it is impossible,
then you have closed the door.
  
13:13 Right?
 
13:15 But if you say it is possible,
then you also close the door.
  
13:23 You understand?
 
13:25 But if you say,
we are going to enquire
  
13:29 into a very,
very complex problem,
  
13:34 because all our life,
from childhood till we die,
  
13:40 it is a series of struggles,
series of conflicts,
  
13:48 everlasting pain
and misery, confusion.
  
13:55 Right?
 
13:58 So please, you are asking
this question.
  
14:05 And let's go into it
carefully.
  
14:11 Why is there conflict
in our life?
  
14:18 We can understand there must be
conflict, struggle to survive
  
14:25 as the society is constructed
at the present time,
  
14:30 where each man
is out for himself.
  
14:35 Right? Aren't you?
 
14:40 In your business,
in your religious affairs,
  
14:44 in your concept of
salvation, enlightenment,
  
14:49 each one thinks
he is separate.
  
14:54 And this separation,
outwardly and inwardly,
  
15:00 is one of the major factors
of conflict. Right?
  
15:05 We went into that
a little yesterday.
  
15:09 Are we following
each other?
  
15:14 Are we all asleep
on Sunday afternoon?
  
15:19 It is pleasant
having a restful day,
  
15:23 and perhaps you will come here
to be entertained.
  
15:30 We are slaves
to entertainment
  
15:38 – the cinemas,
the magazines,
  
15:42 the constant religious
ceremonies,
  
15:47 they are a form
of entertainment, stimulation.
  
15:51 And perhaps Sunday evening
is another form of entertainment.
  
16:00 But this is not
an entertainment.
  
16:06 This is a very serious matter
 
16:11 and requires a great deal of
not only intellectual capacity
  
16:19 but a quality of brain
that is enquiring, pushing, driving.
  
16:31 To live peacefully
in this world
  
16:35 you need a great deal
of intelligence.
  
16:41 To live a religious life requires
far greater intelligence.
  
16:51 We mean by that word not only
what the dictionary says,
  
16:58 which is,
to read between the lines,
  
17:05 to gather information.
 
17:09 That's the function of the intellect,
to read between the lines,
  
17:15 to gather information,
store it
  
17:20 and use that information,
knowledge, skilfully.
  
17:27 Right?
 
17:29 So, we need not only
the intellectual capacity
  
17:38 to understand the depth,
 
17:41 and to discern, to watch,
to observe very clearly
  
17:47 what is a fact
and what is not a fact.
  
17:54 Fact being
that which has happened,
  
17:59 which is the past
– that's a fact.
  
18:02 And also what is happening now
– that's also a fact.
  
18:08 You are sitting there and the speaker
is sitting here – that's a fact.
  
18:17 One might have had
a beautiful sunset yesterday,
  
18:21 and you saw it
– that's a fact.
  
18:25 But the future
is not a fact.
  
18:31 The future is 'what is', now.
 
18:38 This is a little bit complex
– I'll go into it.
  
18:42 We are the past – our memories,
our remembrances,
  
18:48 our accumulation of knowledge,
and so on,
  
18:52 all that has happened
in the past.
  
18:56 And that past
meets the present,
  
19:02 modifies itself and goes on
to the future.
  
19:08 So the future is the present.
Right?
  
19:14 Have you understood?
 
19:19 That is, the present contains
not only the past,
  
19:26 but the present,
and also the future.
  
19:33 Do you see this?
 
19:35 That means
the present is all time.
  
19:40 I won't complicate it,
we will go along slowly.
  
19:45 So, as you observe,
we are living in the past.
  
19:55 Our memories, our knowledge,
our remembrances are the past.
  
20:04 And the present is the past
 
20:10 modifying itself and
going on to the future.
  
20:15 Right?
 
20:16 The culture, the so-called
culture of this country,
  
20:21 has disappeared,
the ancient culture.
  
20:26 And it has adjusted itself
to the modern conditions –
  
20:34 money, power, and so on –
 
20:38 adjusted itself
and is going on into the future.
  
20:42 So the future
is the past modified.
  
20:48 Right? Right?
 
20:52 So, the whole of this movement
is time,
  
20:59 which is evolution.
 
21:02 I wonder
if you get all this.
  
21:05 It's not clever.
It's not a clever explanation,
  
21:09 don't go off thinking
how clever this is.
  
21:12 But see the fact
of our daily life.
  
21:17 Our daily life consists
not only of the past
  
21:25 – past incidents,
past accidents,
  
21:28 past hurts, wounds
psychologically,
  
21:33 and also the past remembrance
of having a toothache –
  
21:39 all that is the past,
and in that past we live.
  
21:46 Right?
 
21:49 And that past is all the time
modifying itself,
  
21:56 because
there are new incidents,
  
22:00 new accidents,
new impressions,
  
22:04 and therefore
it is adjusting itself.
  
22:07 But it's always the movement
of the past, rooted in the past.
  
22:14 Right?
Do you see this?
  
22:19 Need I explain further
any more of this?
  
22:21 I will.
It is very complicated.
  
22:24 So, our life is the past
meeting the present,
  
22:34 and therefore the past
meeting the present
  
22:38 is one of the factors
of conflict.
  
22:43 Do you understand?
 
22:47 Observe for yourself
the present state of the world,
  
22:54 specially the world of India,
of your country.
  
22:58 It's not my country.
 
23:03 My country isn't Europe
or America, I have no country.
  
23:08 It's good to be like that.
Except one has to have a passport,
  
23:17 but passport doesn't make you
an Indian, it's a piece of paper.
  
23:24 So look what is happening
in this country.
  
23:27 An ancient culture,
three to five thousand years old,
  
23:35 has utterly disappeared.
 
23:39 Whether it is right or wrong,
that's not the point.
  
23:42 The Brahmanical culture – don't get
excited about it – that has gone.
  
23:51 And the Western civilisation,
which is both cultural,
  
23:57 aesthetic, technological,
has invaded this country.
  
24:04 So you have adjusted yourself
to that pattern.
  
24:08 Right? You see it.
 
24:11 So the past is continually
modifying itself
  
24:17 and the division
between the past and the present
  
24:22 is one of the factors
of conflict.
  
24:26 Do you get this?
Please.
  
24:30 And therefore is it possible
to live a daily life
  
24:38 – not a theoretical life,
 
24:42 the word and the deed
are two different things.
  
24:48 For us, word is more important,
not the deed.
  
24:56 You hear all this,
 
25:01 and that becomes words,
and it becomes a theory,
  
25:05 and you carry on with your
daily life, totally divorced
  
25:09 from what you have heard,
or read, or theorised.
  
25:16 So there is a division between
the word and the action, deed.
  
25:23 And that's also one
of the factors of conflict.
  
25:28 Right?
You understand?
  
25:33 Somebody say yes, for God's sake.
You all look so asleep !
  
25:41 So is it possible
to live a daily life
  
25:49 – please understand –
daily life,
  
25:53 so that
there is no division
  
25:57 between the past,
the future, and the present?
  
26:06 That is,
the brain is recording,
  
26:16 like that recorder there,
 
26:20 every incident,
every accident, tendency,
  
26:24 impressions, physical hurts,
psychological wounds
  
26:29 – all that is being taped.
 
26:34 The brain is
a recording machine.
  
26:41 And as long as
it is recording –
  
26:49 which is the past –
 
26:53 that record is preventing you
from looking at the new.
  
27:00 Right?
 
27:02 I wonder
if you understand all this.
  
27:10 Now, just take
a very simple example.
  
27:13 Psychologically
you get hurt.
  
27:19 From childhood through
the family, through school,
  
27:25 college, university,
you get hurt, psychologically.
  
27:32 You are not as good
as your brother,
  
27:35 you are not doing well
in examinations, and so on.
  
27:40 All this process is a factor
of hurting, psychologically.
  
27:46 And that wound is the past.
Right?
  
27:53 Look at yourself, find out
whether you are wounded.
  
27:58 Of course, you are wounded.
 
28:00 Every human being
is wounded, psychologically,
  
28:05 by a harsh word from a father,
from a mother, from a husband, wife,
  
28:13 it acts as a wound.
 
28:17 Now, where there is
a wound psychologically,
  
28:21 you build a wall of resistance,
naturally. Right?
  
28:29 So, that wound prevents you
further meeting others,
  
28:39 so that you never want
to be hurt again.
  
28:43 Haven't you noticed all this?
Yes?
  
28:50 Or you are so extraordinary human
beings, you have never been hurt.
  
28:58 So, that wound is the past.
 
29:02 That wound has been recorded,
in the brain.
  
29:09 Now, as long as that record
remains, there must be fear.
  
29:17 You get it?
And therefore conflict.
  
29:24 So can we not record?
 
29:33 I need to record how to drive a car,
to learn a language,
  
29:42 to do a crooked business.
 
29:44 I need to have all kinds of knowledge
to live physically.
  
29:51 There the brain has to record.
Right?
  
29:59 We are questioning why should
the brain record the wound.
  
30:07 You understand?
 
30:10 Because as long as
there is a record, it must continue
  
30:16 in the fear of being
further wounded. Right?
  
30:22 So, we are asking a question –
 
30:25 complex, it requires
careful examination –
  
30:29 whether it is possible not to record
psychologically, inwardly?
  
30:35 You understand? Put that question
to yourself, please, find out.
  
30:46 Somebody flatters you, says
what a marvellous person you are
  
30:54 – why should you record it?
 
30:59 And somebody comes
and says, 'You are an ass'
  
31:03 and you instantly record.
 
31:07 This recording is one
of the factors of conflict. Right?
  
31:14 If you understand that,
then you will see
  
31:18 whether it is possible
not to record at all.
  
31:25 Because the self,
the ego, the 'me',
  
31:32 is the collection
of all the records of humanity.
  
31:39 Right? Right, sir?
You people !
  
31:55 The brain has two functions :
 
32:01 one is to record
where it is necessary,
  
32:08 and not to record
where it is not necessary.
  
32:13 So the brain then
is uncluttered, free,
  
32:22 and therefore you are
not anymore living in the past.
  
32:31 Therefore there is no conflict.
Right? You understand?
  
32:39 Sir, don't accept
what the speaker is saying,
  
32:44 for God's sake,
or for your own sake.
  
32:50 Understand for yourself
the fact.
  
32:56 The fact is not what you think,
the fact is 'what is'.
  
33:05 You can think about it, what
you think about it is not a fact.
  
33:11 Right?
The fact is 'what is'.
  
33:15 So, if you see
how to live a life
  
33:24 in which there is
extraordinary energy
  
33:32 and therefore no conflict –
 
33:37 conflict exists as long as this
recording process goes on, right? –
  
33:46 then you will ask the question,
inevitably, 'How is this possible?'
  
33:53 Right?
 
33:54 It sounds
theoretically excellent,
  
33:59 but how is this
to take place? Right?
  
34:03 You are asking
this question naturally.
  
34:06 Now, when you ask 'how', what is
implied in that question 'how',
  
34:12 in that word 'how'?
 
34:17 You want a system,
you want a pattern,
  
34:19 you want a method,
which is the past.
  
34:24 Do you see this?
I wonder if you see this.
  
34:30 You see, we are always asking,
please tell us how to do something.
  
34:38 I can understand if am a carpenter,
I need to go to a master carpenter
  
34:44 and he'll show me how to do things
– look at the grain of the wood,
  
34:52 whether it is right wood,
and so on, and so on.
  
34:56 But when I ask 'how'
inwardly,
  
35:01 I want a pattern
which I can follow
  
35:06 a method which I can copy.
 
35:10 So, the method, the system,
 
35:14 the practice is being
recorded in the brain.
  
35:20 Right?
You are following this?
  
35:24 So, never ask 'how'.
 
35:34 That is one of the greatest
discoveries
  
35:37 – never ask 'how' of anybody
psychologically.
  
35:44 Of course, you would ask
how am I to get from this place
  
35:48 to the room I live in
– I have to ask, 'please tell me.'
  
35:52 That is a different matter.
 
35:54 But to ask a guru
– as you all…
  
36:00 There you are, you have
all seen various people,
  
36:03 with their peculiar dress,
you have got gurus.
  
36:07 They ask the guru
how to attain enlightenment.
  
36:11 And the poor chap
tells you how.
  
36:15 All that you do is repeat,
so that your brain is recording.
  
36:21 You follow?
 
36:23 And so that record
prevents you from clarity.
  
36:33 Right?
 
36:35 Now, if you don't ask how,
if you can put that word
  
36:41 totally out of your consciousness,
then what is left?
  
36:51 Then
you are looking at yourself,
  
36:55 you are looking
at your own activity
  
36:59 of the past operating on the present,
modifying itself and going on.
  
37:05 This cycle. Right?
 
37:09 The cycle of action-reaction,
and reaction-action.
  
37:16 Right?
This is the cycle we live in.
  
37:22 It is like a tide going out
and the same water is coming in.
  
37:30 Right?
This is our life.
  
37:35 Now we are going
to ask another question,
  
37:37 which is
– am I disturbing you too much?
  
37:44 It's up to you.
 
37:48 That is, our life is
action and reaction. Right?
  
37:56 It's like the tide going out,
tide coming in,
  
38:01 challenge – response,
 
38:06 question – answer.
 
38:09 Now, as the water goes out
and the water comes in,
  
38:16 can there be
a state of mind, brain,
  
38:21 when there is
no action and reaction?
  
38:25 This requires a great deal
of observation of yourself.
  
38:31 I won't go into it,
it's too complex for the moment.
  
38:36 So, is it possible not to record?
Right?
  
38:46 Not to record insult or flattery.
Not to record
  
38:53 – somebody says
you are an ass or an idiot,
  
38:56 when you think you are
a clever man – not to record.
  
39:03 That is only possible
when you see
  
39:06 what the recording process
does in life.
  
39:14 Right?
 
39:16 Suppose you are married,
or unmarried,
  
39:18 or live with a girl,
and so on,
  
39:22 every incident
in that relationship,
  
39:26 whether it is sexual,
and so on, every incident,
  
39:31 the word is recorded,
is taped, recorded.
  
39:34 Right?
This is so, isn't it.
  
39:47 And that record – and you have
a record of the husband –
  
39:57 those two records
are memories. Right?
  
40:02 And therefore you are living
in the past – naturally.
  
40:08 So, what takes place?
 
40:13 You never meet
each other afresh.
  
40:19 Right?
You never see anything anew.
  
40:27 Right?
And there lies the conflict.
  
40:32 The old
always meeting the new
  
40:35 and changing the new
to conform to the past.
  
40:40 And making the new conform
 
40:44 or assimilate to the past
is a process of conflict.
  
40:48 I wonder if you
understand all this !
  
40:55 Are we exercising our brain
or merely listening?
  
41:04 Are you using your brain capacity?
So, we come back.
  
41:12 When you are recording all the time,
you are wasting energy,
  
41:20 because you remember what you said
to me and I get angry about it.
  
41:26 You follow?
 
41:27 So you discover all recording
is a wastage of energy.
  
41:36 Right?
And you need energy !
  
41:46 The people who are great scholars,
who have read such a lot,
  
41:52 who know so many things
– haven't you met them? –
  
42:00 tremendously,
all stored in the brain.
  
42:06 Why carry all that
in your brain?
  
42:10 They are in the books, you can
read them – why carry it here?
  
42:15 No, enquire, go into it,
you will see.
  
42:18 You carry it in here
because it gives you power,
  
42:23 position, scholarly,
great pundit.
  
42:31 Right?
 
42:33 So your brain then becomes
so burdened with knowledge,
  
42:41 and knowledge
is the enemy of love.
  
42:45 Oh, for God's sakes !
 
42:49 If you understand this
from your heart, not intellectually,
  
42:57 then
knowledge has its place,
  
43:03 and psychologically
it has no place whatsoever.
  
43:09 Right?
Can you live like that?
  
43:15 Can you live a daily life,
 
43:22 never recording
psychologically?
  
43:29 Would you try it?
 
43:33 Would you do it
as you are sitting now there,
  
43:37 or go home
and think about it?
  
43:42 I know you are going
to think about it,
  
43:46 probably you are doing that,
you are thinking about it.
  
43:51 And that thinking,
which is born of knowledge,
  
43:55 is going to prevent love.
 
44:03 Right?
 
44:05 So we are going to go
into another question :
  
44:15 when you think about something,
what do you mean by thinking?
  
44:27 I think about you,
 
44:33 about my wife, my husband,
 
44:35 I think about my business
– think.
  
44:39 What is thinking?
 
44:44 Thinking 'about' something
– right? –
  
44:49 and thinking – not 'about' something.
You see the difference?
  
44:56 Oh, lord !
Can we go on?
  
45:00 You aren't too tired?
 
45:03 Sunday afternoon.
 
45:08 You can begin all over again
on Monday morning
  
45:12 – office,
the routine sets in.
  
45:17 At least this evening
you are more or less free,
  
45:21 you can enjoy yourself
to listen to all this rubbish.
  
45:28 But it is not rubbish.
 
45:32 It's something
terribly serious,
  
45:37 because
man is destroying himself.
  
45:45 And knowledge is one
of the factors of destruction,
  
45:53 and therefore where there is love
there is no destruction.
  
46:05 We must understand
a certain thing, which is,
  
46:10 what is thinking and what is
thinking about something. Right?
  
46:19 Thinking about something
is one factor,
  
46:25 and thinking is another fact
– right? – thinking.
  
46:30 So, I can think about Europe
or Lebanon, the destruction,
  
46:39 the murder, the appalling things
that are going on,
  
46:43 or I'll enquire :
what is thinking?
  
46:47 You understand?
Would you join me in this game?
  
46:56 We are working out this
together.
  
47:00 I am not doing it for my amusement,
we are doing it together.
  
47:05 What is thinking?
 
47:08 When you say, 'I will think
about what you have said'
  
47:15 which is thinking
– about what I have said.
  
47:23 Or you are actually thinking
without the object. Right?
  
47:30 Now, what is thinking?
 
47:37 Because thought has created the most
extraordinary things in life,
  
47:45 the great temples, the great mosques,
the marvellous cathedrals,
  
47:50 the splendour of those marvellous
structures, soaring up into the sky,
  
47:59 the great paintings, the sculpture,
the great poems. Right?
  
48:05 And also thought has created
the extraordinary instruments of war.
  
48:15 Thought has also created
all the things in the temples,
  
48:19 in the mosques,
in the churches.
  
48:23 Right?
These are facts.
  
48:27 You may say, 'No, they are
direct revelation from God',
  
48:32 when you say that,
that is also thought. Right?
  
48:38 So, thought has done
the most extraordinary things,
  
48:46 and also done
the most appalling things.
  
48:51 Thought has burnt people,
call them Heretics and burn them.
  
48:59 And thought said, you must follow
Marx, Engels, and so on.
  
49:05 Thought has been extraordinarily
important in our life.
  
49:12 Right?
Do you understand this?
  
49:16 Now, what is thought?
What is thinking?
  
49:26 Look, enquire, look at it,
look at your own way of thinking.
  
49:35 You think about your wife
– suppose, if you ever do –
  
49:43 you think about
your wife or husband.
  
49:49 What is that thinking
when you think about her or him?
  
49:53 You have
the experience of that person,
  
49:58 the image of that person,
 
50:00 the nature, the look,
the structure,
  
50:05 the appearance of that person,
which is memory.
  
50:10 Right? Right, sirs?
 
50:14 And that memory is based
on knowledge of that person.
  
50:21 Right?
 
50:23 And that knowledge is based
on the experience with that person.
  
50:28 Right?
Do you see this?
  
50:32 So, thinking is born
from experience,
  
50:41 knowledge derived from experience,
stored in the brain as memory,
  
50:48 and reaction to that memory
is thought. Right?
  
50:57 So thought is
a material process.
  
51:03 Would you see that?
 
51:09 Right, sir?
So thought is not sacred.
  
51:13 And whatever it creates
is not sacred – your Upanishads,
  
51:19 your Gita, your Bible,
Koran, is not sacred.
  
51:27 See what you are accepting
the moment you say
  
51:32 thought is a material process.
 
51:36 It is a material process
because
  
51:40 the brain, the brain cells
contain the past memories,
  
51:45 past knowledge, past experience,
and from that thought arises.
  
51:52 If you had no experience,
no knowledge,
  
51:55 no memory, there is no thought.
Right?
  
52:02 So look at it carefully
and you will see it for yourself.
  
52:06 So thought is
a material process.
  
52:12 Would you see that?
 
52:16 So thought has created God
and then thought worships God.
  
52:27 Yes, sir !
You're had !
  
52:35 This is very important.
Please, look at it.
  
52:42 And if thought is a material process,
then what are we?
  
52:54 You understand my question?
 
52:57 What are we,
psychologically?
  
53:03 Thought says you are Hindu.
 
53:07 Thought says
you are a great man.
  
53:10 Thought says you must
achieve enlightenment.
  
53:16 Thought says
you must meditate.
  
53:21 Thought says obey, follow,
become like somebody else.
  
53:32 So thought says become,
both outwardly,
  
53:39 if you are a clerk,
become the manager,
  
53:43 if you are the manager,
become the executive,
  
53:45 if you are the executive,
the chairman.
  
53:51 Also, thought says,
you are a disciple,
  
53:55 you'll eventually be the master,
and ultimately the guru,
  
54:00 and, still further,
enlightened.
  
54:04 Thought
is constructing all this.
  
54:08 I wonder
if you realise all this.
  
54:19 So,
we live by thought.
  
54:31 And as experience is limited,
so knowledge is always limited,
  
54:40 whether it is scientific knowledge,
biological knowledge,
  
54:44 arithmetical knowledge,
and so on,
  
54:48 all knowledge is always
eternally limited.
  
54:55 Future knowledge is limited.
Right? Do you see this?
  
55:02 No, you don't.
Right, sir?
  
55:05 Knowledge is limited
because it is based on experience.
  
55:10 And because it is experience
it's limited,
  
55:13 therefore thought
is limited.
  
55:17 Thought can imagine
the limitless
  
55:23 and imagine you
achieving the limitless.
  
55:27 Right?
Are you following all this?
  
55:35 Thought is word.
Right?
  
55:39 Thought is the symbol.
 
55:44 So, the enlightenment,
the measureless is a word.
  
55:55 And the word is not the actual.
You understand all this?
  
56:02 So, can the brain be free
of the network of words?
  
56:09 Yes, sir...
 
56:15 And the self, the 'me',
the ego is knowledge.
  
56:25 Right? Right, sir?
 
56:30 You pundits,
would you agree to that?
  
56:35 The self, the 'me' is the essence
of knowledge. No?
  
56:47 All right, let's put it round
the other way, what is the self?
  
56:51 What are you?
 
56:56 Come on, sir, what are you?
 
56:59 Your name, your form,
the clothes you wear
  
57:05 if you are a sannyasi
of a peculiar kind,
  
57:12 you have a bank account,
 
57:14 you are a businessman,
you have had a lot of experience,
  
57:20 you have had
a great deal of pleasure,
  
57:24 pain, anxiety,
loneliness, sorrow
  
57:29 right?
You are that, aren't you?
  
57:35 Right?
Would you acknowledge that?
  
57:38 Or do you say, 'I am atman,
something far superior.'
  
57:43 Oh yes, you all do.
 
57:47 If you say, 'I am far superior',
that's also the invention of thought.
  
57:56 Right?
 
57:59 Because you have read about it, say,
'By Jove, there is a higher self.'
  
58:06 Or some guru
comes along and says,
  
58:08 'There is super-consciousness
and you must draw it down.'
  
58:14 Right?
 
58:16 So all that process is
a movement of thought,
  
58:25 – and thought is time.
Right?
  
58:33 Because to acquire knowledge
requires time.
  
58:38 To acquire knowledge, say Russian,
or English, or Spanish, or French,
  
58:45 requires
a great deal of time.
  
58:48 You may spend three months
or a year, that is time.
  
58:54 So to acquire knowledge, inwardly
or outwardly, requires time. Right?
  
59:04 To learn about yourself
is to have time.
  
59:11 Right?
Do you understand this?
  
59:17 See what game
you are playing with yourself.
  
59:22 I want to learn about myself
– self-knowledge
  
59:26 which I have talked
a great deal about –
  
59:31 self-knowledge,
to know myself.
  
59:34 And to know myself, I must
investigate, I must observe,
  
59:38 I must analyse, I must have
introspection – you follow? –
  
59:42 watch, learn, observe,
self-recollected, be aware,
  
59:48 all that takes time.
 
59:51 Right? Would you agree to that?
Do you see that?
  
59:59 All that requires time.
 
1:00:01 To know about the moon
requires time.
  
1:00:08 This is simple.
 
1:00:10 And also to know myself,
we have said, 'I require time'.
  
1:00:16 Right?
 
1:00:20 Which means what?
 
1:00:21 Oh, you are missing so much,
what is the matter with you?
  
1:00:33 Time is the enemy of man.
 
1:00:44 Illumination is not
enlightenment through time.
  
1:00:51 It isn't a gradual process,
success after success.
  
1:01:02 When you see thought is time
– of course.
  
1:01:08 Thought is movement
and time is movement.
  
1:01:13 Clear? So, thought and time
go together.
  
1:01:20 They are not separate.
 
1:01:21 Thought is time
and time is thought.
  
1:01:27 So thought says,
I must become enlightened.
  
1:01:33 I must become,
from what I am, what I should be.
  
1:01:39 That is... Goodness,
need I explain all these things?
  
1:01:46 I am violent.
Human beings are violent.
  
1:01:53 You are violent,
aren't you?
  
1:01:58 And you say, 'I must not
be violent, or become non-violent'.
  
1:02:07 So to become non-violent
takes time.
  
1:02:12 During that interval of becoming
non-violent, you are being violent.
  
1:02:21 So non-violence is nonsense.
Right?
  
1:02:29 What is fact is violence.
 
1:02:34 So, our brains are trained
to become.
  
1:02:40 As you become a clerk,
reach the ladder,
  
1:02:45 the same is extended
to the psychological world.
  
1:02:51 You are following?
 
1:02:53 There we say, 'I am ignorant,
I must have knowledge about myself.'
  
1:02:58 'I am violent,
I must become non-violent.'
  
1:03:04 I am angry, I must become
without anger.
  
1:03:10 Now, look at it carefully.
 
1:03:14 You are violent. Violence
is not separate from you.
  
1:03:22 Would you agree to that?
 
1:03:28 The Hindus are very clever
birds.
  
1:03:32 They'll agree up to a point.
I can see it in their faces.
  
1:03:39 But they have got
behind them the idea
  
1:03:42 that the 'me' is different
from the observer.
  
1:03:47 The person who witnesses
is different.
  
1:03:50 Right? You know the game
you are playing !
  
1:03:58 Is that a fact?
 
1:04:01 Is it a fact that there is
an observer different from anger?
  
1:04:09 Careful, don't answer it,
look at it carefully.
  
1:04:14 Anger is me.
I am not different from anger.
  
1:04:18 Right?
Violence is me.
  
1:04:23 Non-violence is not me
 
1:04:28 – right? –
that's just an idea.
  
1:04:31 The fact is I am violent.
That is a fact.
  
1:04:35 Non-violence is non-fact.
 
1:04:39 But we pursue non-fact
because we don't know
  
1:04:43 how to deal with 'what is'.
You are following this?
  
1:04:56 So, the observer
is not different from the observed.
  
1:05:05 Right? No, this is difficult.
 
1:05:12 Goodness ! I'll go into it.
 
1:05:17 You see that tree over there
– if you ever look at trees.
  
1:05:24 When you look at a tree, the tree is
obviously different from you.
  
1:05:32 Right?
The cloud of an evening
  
1:05:36 full of light and beauty,
is different from you.
  
1:05:42 But when you look at that tree,
what takes place?
  
1:05:49 Do look at the tree
– what takes place?
  
1:05:55 You immediately use the word.
Right?
  
1:06:01 So the word interferes
from looking at it.
  
1:06:09 She is my wife or my husband
– finished.
  
1:06:17 Right?
Don't you know all this?
  
1:06:24 So the word is preventing you
from observing.
  
1:06:32 And also the word
is not the thing.
  
1:06:38 The word 'tree'
is not the tree.
  
1:06:41 The word 'my wife' is not the wife.
I wonder if you see this !
  
1:06:47 If you see this,
your relationship with your wife
  
1:06:50 will be entirely different.
Oh, you people.
  
1:06:58 So, time is thought.
 
1:07:05 And thought says,
'I am this, I must become that.'
  
1:07:11 Therefore, the becoming
implies time.
  
1:07:16 And what are you becoming?
 
1:07:22 You pundits answer this,
what are you becoming?
  
1:07:28 More enlightened?
Better human being?
  
1:07:35 You are not good, but you say,
'I will become good.'
  
1:07:42 And when you are becoming good
you will never be good !
  
1:07:48 I wonder if you see that.
 
1:07:51 So there is no becoming, which is
one of the factors of conflict.
  
1:07:59 But if you say, 'All right,
the fact is, violence is me,
  
1:08:07 violence is not separate
from me.'
  
1:08:11 That is a fact.
 
1:08:15 The 'me' is my face, the 'me' is my
character, my – all the rest of it.
  
1:08:22 But we have separated the 'me' from
the thing that is happening. Right?
  
1:08:29 That is, thought has separated
violence from the thinker.
  
1:08:40 Right?
Are you getting tired?
  
1:08:44 Oh no...You must be tired.
 
1:08:51 Because you are just
not co-operating, working,
  
1:08:56 that is why you say,
'I am not tired.'
  
1:08:59 If you are co-operating,
working,
  
1:09:03 you'll see what an extraordinary
thing is going on with your brain.
  
1:09:11 Look, violence is me,
greed is me, anger is me.
  
1:09:23 Later on I say, 'I have been angry',
but the fact is anger,
  
1:09:31 jealousy, hate, anxiety...
is me.
  
1:09:39 So the observer
is the observed. Right?
  
1:09:47 Right, sir? Do you see this?
Oh no, you don't.
  
1:09:57 Sir, one of the factors of conflict
is that we have divided
  
1:10:05 the thinker from thought.
Right?
  
1:10:13 Without thought
there is no thinker. Right?
  
1:10:18 But we have separated the thinker,
the experiencer from the experience.
  
1:10:24 We have separated analyser
from the analysed. Right?
  
1:10:31 Haven't you noticed this? So there is
perpetual conflict, division.
  
1:10:37 So the observer
is the observed.
  
1:10:42 The experiencer
is the experience.
  
1:10:47 Go into the question of
– I have got no time.
  
1:10:54 You all want to experience,
don't you?
  
1:10:57 Nirvana
or some other factor,
  
1:11:01 sex or any other
– you want to experience.
  
1:11:04 What is experience?
 
1:11:12 How do you know
it is an experience?
  
1:11:17 Only you know it
when you recognise it. Right?
  
1:11:22 So, see what is happening :
 
1:11:25 when you recognise it,
it is not new.
  
1:11:30 But yet you call that,
'I must have new experience.'
  
1:11:34 So all experiences,
when recognised,
  
1:11:38 are merely
the past remembrance.
  
1:11:42 Yes, sir, get this into your blood
and you will see what takes place.
  
1:11:48 Then your mind is so alert,
so aware, so attentive,
  
1:11:53 there is no experience at all.
You won't understand all this.
  
1:11:59 So, we are enquiring
into the cause of conflict.
  
1:12:07 One of the cause of conflict
is duality. Right?
  
1:12:15 Violence and non-violence,
that's duality.
  
1:12:20 Good and the bad,
hate and love.
  
1:12:26 Why do we have duality?
 
1:12:30 Don't translate it to advaita
or some other Sanskrit word
  
1:12:33 and get away with it.
 
1:12:36 Why do we have duality?
What is duality?
  
1:12:42 You are a woman, I am a man,
you are tall, I am short,
  
1:12:46 you are fair, another is light,
or lighter, whatever it is.
  
1:12:53 Right? Only duality exists
when there is comparison.
  
1:13:00 Are you following all this?
 
1:13:03 When I compare myself with you,
I have created duality.
  
1:13:10 Right, sir?
 
1:13:17 So if I don't compare,
there is no duality.
  
1:13:23 That is,
I have invented non-violence
  
1:13:31 – this country is full of that,
non-violence,
  
1:13:34 at least they talk about it.
 
1:13:39 But the fact is
they are violent.
  
1:13:43 The fact.
The fact has no duality.
  
1:13:50 Ah, I see that, I just discovered it.
You understand?
  
1:13:56 The fact has no opposite.
 
1:14:07 I am angry, that's a fact.
 
1:14:12 When I say, 'I must not be angry',
then duality arises.
  
1:14:20 So – very interesting,
use your brains,
  
1:14:24 go into all this –
so, I am angry.
  
1:14:31 That is a fact.
What am I to do?
  
1:14:34 I won't say,
'I must not be angry',
  
1:14:37 then I am in conflict,
you understand?
  
1:14:42 I won't suppress it.
 
1:14:46 There is no suppression, there is no
escape, there is no transcending it.
  
1:14:52 So what happens?
 
1:14:56 Go on, sir, what happens when there
is no movement away from the fact?
  
1:15:09 Go.
 
1:15:14 It is : the movement away from it
creates conflict, creates duality.
  
1:15:24 And volumes have been written
by clever Indians about duality.
  
1:15:33 The speaker has said there is no
duality right from the beginning
  
1:15:36 because there is only
the fact.
  
1:15:41 But when I want to get over
the fact, then I create duality.
  
1:15:48 Right, sir? See.
Then what takes place?
  
1:15:52 How to remain with the fact?
You understand?
  
1:15:57 Not move away from the fact.
 
1:16:00 Any movement away from the fact
is conflict and duality.
  
1:16:07 So, when you remain with the fact,
what takes place?
  
1:16:16 You work it out. I am working
it out, but you work it.
  
1:16:21 What happens
when you remain with the fact?
  
1:16:29 Which means what?
You are…
  
1:16:33 I can tell you, you will say,
'Yes, yes', and go away.
  
1:16:39 You don't apply !
 
1:16:45 Sir, look, when I move away
from the fact, I have lost energy.
  
1:16:54 Right?
Do you see that?
  
1:16:57 When I move away from the fact,
it is a wastage of energy. Right?
  
1:17:06 So when there is no movement
away from the fact,
  
1:17:11 all energy is there.
 
1:17:15 Which means, complete attention
there, with the fact.
  
1:17:22 And when there is complete attention,
then it is like light,
  
1:17:29 high powered light
being thrown on the fact.
  
1:17:35 And then the fact reveals
all its content.
  
1:17:40 You understand?
Then the fact has no meaning.
  
1:17:44 Oh, come on !
You understand?
  
1:17:55 Now, look : we said knowledge
is an enemy of love,
  
1:18:13 and love has no opposite.
 
1:18:18 But we have made opposite
– hate.
  
1:18:25 Sorry – slight cramp.
 
1:18:29 I am working too hard
for you, that's what it is.
  
1:18:45 So, sirs, we have examined a very,
very complex problem.
  
1:18:54 We have examined together.
 
1:18:59 The speaker has not examined,
you have examined.
  
1:19:06 The speaker is merely
acting as your voice.
  
1:19:14 The speaker is merely
showing 'what is'.
  
1:19:21 And you are looking at it,
looking at yourself.
  
1:19:29 And when you look
at yourself carefully,
  
1:19:34 you are nothing
but the past,
  
1:19:40 past memories, past remembrances,
past pleasures.
  
1:19:48 And when you suffer, as most
human beings do, unfortunately,
  
1:19:57 again, escape from it.
 
1:20:01 So when you remain with a fact,
it is like looking
  
1:20:08 at a bud,
looking at a rose bud.
  
1:20:13 And you will see the rose bud open,
the perfume of it,
  
1:20:18 the beauty of it, the quality of it,
the gentleness, the tenderness.
  
1:20:27 And when you observe the fact,
it fades away. Right.
  
1:20:35 We will continue
next weekend,
  
1:20:39 talking about fear, sorrow,
 
1:20:47 what is religion,
what is meditation,
  
1:20:51 what is death, because all this
is part of our life.
  
1:20:58 You cannot separate
one from the other.
  
1:21:04 You cannot say, 'I am going
to meditate', and be a stupid person.
  
1:21:12 To understand life, this whole
complex problem of life,
  
1:21:18 you need great patience.
 
1:21:22 Not the patience of time
– patience.
  
1:21:27 You need a brain that is alive,
questioning, asking, doubting,
  
1:21:38 and then you will find out
for yourself without word
  
1:21:42 that which is not
measured by words.
  
1:21:48 Sorry if I have kept you.