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BR72DSS1.03 - The trap of mediocrity
Brockwood Park, UK - 1 June 1972
Discussion with Staff and Students 1.03



0:00 This is J. Krishnamurti’s third discussion with teachers and students at Brockwood Park, 1972.
0:13 Krishnamurti: What shall we talk about? I hope you had a nice holiday.
0:29 Any suggestions? Questioner: Sir? Could we talk about emotions?
0:38 K: Emotions.
0:49 I wonder what you mean by that word emotion.
0:54 Q: Feelings, sir.
0:55 K: Getting excited? Sentimental? Getting angry? Feeling very strongly about something – sex, pleasure, seeing a cloud and really enjoying it.
1:20 What do you mean by that word? What does it mean to you?
1:23 Q: It’s a feeling.
1:24 K: Non-abstractly – you know what that means – non-abstractly, non-verbally, could you tell me the feeling when you say emotion.
1:37 What does it mean to you?
1:39 Q: It’s the feeling you get when you see something.
1:47 K: Yes. What is that feeling? Try to put it into words.
1:58 You see a picture and you say, ‘By Jove, how beautiful that is.’ Why do you say it is beautiful, what is the feeling behind that word?
2:12 Q: Actually, you don’t have to say it’s beautiful.
2:22 K: No, you feel it.
2:25 Q: Yes.
2:26 K: You work with a friend and you tell that friend how beautiful that picture is, or how lovely that tree is, look at that cloud, the shape of it, ‘How extraordinary it is.’ Now what is behind that feeling, what is behind those words and the feeling that you have when you see these things, what is it?
2:52 Try to convey it in words. Tell me, I don’t know. I don’t see a cloud, I don’t see pictures, I don’t see trees, I say, ‘Oh, they are just…’ You want to tell me what you feel about those trees.
3:11 How do you convey it to me? You want me to feel the same way as you do – passionately, strongly, you know, vitally – and you want to tell me.
3:24 How do you put it to me? How do you convey it to me?
3:38 Come on. Come on, English teacher.
3:40 Q: By describing the feeling.
3:42 K: Tell me.
3:43 Q: That it’s beautiful, it’s…
3:44 K: No. It’s more than just the word, isn’t it? Now what is behind that word?
3:56 You see something dirty and say, ‘How dirty that is.’ What is the feeling behind that, how do you tell me?
4:04 I don’t see the dirt.
4:14 (Pause) Q: The tone of one’s voice often expresses more than what one actually says.
4:34 The tone of one’s voice.
4:36 K: The tone. But you can’t convey the tone in writing, can you?
4:42 Q: No.
4:43 K: Now I want you to write me a letter about it. (Laughs) I want you to put it into words without the tonality.
4:53 Q: You mean actually describe the feeling?
4:57 K: Yes. You asked me what emotions are and I’m saying to you: what do you mean by that word emotion?
5:05 Beauty, ugliness, good, bad – you have a strong feeling – what is that strong feeling?
5:14 Is it – listen carefully – is it a reaction to something you see?
5:27 You know what I mean by reaction? Is it something, a reaction? It is, isn’t it? You see dirt and say, ‘How ugly that is.’ That’s a reaction, isn’t it? You see a cloud and say, ‘How beautiful that is.’ That’s a reaction, isn’t it? ‘I don’t like that jersey because it’s too voyant,’ I mean too – what? – too showy. So what do you...
5:54 Q: Not just a reaction.
5:57 K: Wait, wait, go step by step. We’re investigating, aren’t we, so go step by step. So is it a reaction? Find out if it is a reaction.
6:20 Did you see last night on television the Indian exportation into England?
6:37 All the mysticism – the Hari Krishna group, the Sufi group, the new boy coming and saying he is the greatest, the omnipotent, the universal – did you see all that on the television last night?
6:58 No? You should have, it was quite...
7:00 Q: On the news? Was it on the news?
7:02 K: No, there was – I don’t know, I turned it on, I don’t know what it was.
7:15 Now you saw that, people making asses of themselves.
7:24 Sorry! (Laughter) And they call that religion, mysticism.
7:34 You have a reaction to that – that sounds silly, this is. What is that feeling? Is it a reaction to something which you judge – listen carefully – say that’s not religion, because you have an idea of what religion is?
7:52 So you are reacting according to an idea, to a pattern, to a conditioning, and you say, ‘That’s ugly.’ Right?
8:04 Is that what you call emotion?
8:09 Q: No.
8:11 K: Why not?
8:14 Q: Because, like, when you see something you feel it, strongly.
8:19 K: Yes, you feel strongly, but you feel strongly according to your prejudice. When I saw an American, shaved head, with a little tuft of hair – you’ve seen them, the Hari Krishna group, or dancing in the streets – and one of them was becoming…
8:43 was being initiated into Brahmanism, he was becoming a Brahmin.
8:51 (Laughs) You can’t become a Brahmin, you’re born in it or you’re not in it – you can’t become it.
9:00 And here he was, they were doing some kind of puja and some kind of ceremony and he was becoming a Brahmin.
9:07 I said, ‘Good lord, how extraordinary!’ That’s a reaction, isn’t it, because I have an idea of what Brahman is and I react to that – right? – and I’ve an emotion out of that reaction, and I say, ‘How terrible, they are desecrating the idea of Brahman.’ You understand?
9:34 Q: So is emotion just a reaction... (inaudible) K: Wait. My golly, how you people… You can’t… Please, investigate. You understand? Investigate, that is, explore, tear to pieces, find out.
9:56 So one of the emotions is a reaction – right?
10:05 – a reaction to something, and you react to it according to your conditioning, according to your prejudice, according to your like and dislike.
10:15 If I like that I say, ‘How lovely!’ Right? So, now is there is state of mind, a state of feeling which is not a reaction?
10:36 You understand what I mean?
10:44 Now do you understand what I’m talking about?
10:55 Do you have a feeling which is not a reaction?
11:02 Go on, sirs.
11:14 I see that colour red, and I don’t like red. That is, I don’t like it, and that’s a reaction. Now I’m asking: is there a feeling which is not a reaction, or are all feelings a reaction?
11:29 You follow? Now what do you think?
11:31 Q: When you don’t come to a conclusion.
11:35 K: No, no, don’t say that’s a conclusion – we’re investigating. You see, don’t jump to… (laughs) we are investigating. I’m asking you: is there a feeling which is not a reaction?
11:55 You know, this is a very difficult question, isn’t it? Find out.
12:01 Q: What your feeling about is new, and then it would have to be like that.
12:08 K: Is there a new feeling?
12:12 Q: Yes.
12:14 K: Is there?
12:17 Q: Well I would say yes.
12:21 K: I don’t know, tell me. We are investigating together, looking at it, therefore what you say I have to share.
12:31 Q: The very fact that I can see something, you know, I can see something new, and it indicates to me that...
12:41 K: Wait, sir. You see that plant.
12:45 Q: Yes, I can see it.
12:47 K: Now wait a minute. You see something new in it.
12:50 Q: Yes.
12:51 K: No wait. Wait, go slow, go slow. If you see something new in it, it means that you are looking at it with fresh eyes, eyes that are not reacting to the old pattern.
13:06 Q: Well, yes. Yes.
13:09 K: Are you looking at it that way? Or it’s just an idea, or is it a fact?
13:29 That is, look, if you look at that plant without the word – you understand? – without the image, without a feeling of like and dislike, just to look at it without any image is to see something new, isn’t it?
13:58 Can you do it? Be careful, sir, be careful, go slowly, go slowly, otherwise, if you can’t do it, we both of us are not investigating.
14:09 I am investigating, you are agreeing. (Laughs) But if both of us are investigating we would both of us do the same thing.
14:20 That is, first look at it without the word, a plant, then remove from the mind or from the eyes any kind of image that you have about that plant – like, dislike, or something or other – without any movement of the image, look at it.
14:50 Then you see something entirely new. Right? Do it. Then what is the feeling?
15:16 You see something totally new, and what is the feeling?
15:23 Q: It’s indescribable because there’s...
15:34 K: Tell me, I want to share it with you, old boy. (Laughs) Don’t tell me it’s indescribable, and push it aside, I want to share your feelings with you, so you have to tell me.
15:51 Or is it not a feeling at all but a total perception, which is not a feeling?
16:13 I see you and I have no image, I have an image about you – I say Rachael is this, or that boy is that, or Vishwas is that, and so on – I have an image – right?
16:33 Tunki is interested in machinery, therefore the image about Tunki is built round the machinery – you follow?
16:42 – I have an image about you. So I look at you always through that image. Therefore I have a feeling which is aroused when I look at you through that image.
16:57 Right? That is a reaction, isn’t it?
17:02 Q: Yes.
17:04 K: Are you following this? Now, if I can remove… if the mind can free itself from the image which I have built about Tunki, then I look at you – right? – then I see something entirely different, don’t I?
17:20 Q: Well, I don’t know.
17:24 K: I’m asking you. Experiment with it – you are sharing it with me.
17:28 Q: It’s quite subtle, the way one looks, sometimes just with a little… how one dresses, already sometimes unconsciously you form an image.
17:43 K: No, Tunki, listen to me. You look at me. You have an image about me, haven’t you? Of course, old boy. Be simple about it. Now can you look at me without the image – the image being the reputation, this, that, ten different things – can you push aside all that and say, ‘Look, I want to look at you’?
18:22 And when you look at me without the image, have you any emotions, or only looking?
18:33 (Laughs) Therefore there is a state of looking in which is no reaction. I mustn’t go into it. There is a reaction only when there is an image.
18:48 When there is no image the feeling is entirely original.
19:00 Or it may not be called feeling – it is something entirely different, it is a perception; you see the whole.
19:08 Q: But can we remove the image?
19:12 K: Now that’s the next question. Can you? Can’t you remove the image? Why should you have the image? Why have you an image about me?
19:27 Q: Because I’ve seen you before.
19:31 K: Which is what? Which is you have seen me before, you’ve talked to me before, you’ve heard me talk here, you know – etc. Why do you… That is a past memory, isn’t it? Now why does that interfere when you’re looking at me now? (Laughs) So you look at me through the eyes that have been cluttered up with things of the past.
20:08 Right? And we do this all our life – I look at myself with my past eyes.
20:17 So I live always in the past. Right? Now can you put all that aside and look at me without any image?
20:34 Try it.
20:45 That is original – you understand? – because the origin is new.
20:54 I wonder if you get it. And therefore you can’t have any feeling about it; it is not a reaction.
21:05 Q: But what about looking at it with what the thing is?
21:15 K: You look at what the thing is. What the thing is, look at it. Why do you bring your feelings about it?
21:24 Q: No, in that it’s not necessary.
21:26 K: But do it, sir. No, no, do it there and you’ll see you can do it also when you look at yourself. If you can’t do it there you can’t do it here.
21:35 Q: Yes, but don’t you have to use a certain amount of the past to look at yourself?
21:41 K: No, do look at that plant – can you look at it without any image?
21:54 It’s very difficult, you know, this isn’t just a trick.
22:09 Now, you see what is implied?
22:18 I look at you because I’ve lived in this house for the last three years, four years, whatever it is, and by living with you in this house I’ve formed an image about you, haven’t I?
22:35 You are this, you are that. So my relationship with you is based on my past images of you.
22:45 So, my relationship is based on the past, and from that I have reactions about you.
22:58 If I have no image I have no reaction.
23:06 You don’t see the beauty of it. Come on, sir.
23:13 Q: Yes, but when we are in this state there is something, I cannot name it as a feeling, but there is something, something of which I cannot give a name, something right now, I don’t know what it is.
23:23 K: Wait! I won’t… don’t use words.
23:26 Q: Yes, I don’t know what...
23:27 K: Therefore don’t say anything about it. You can only put into words what are factual, you can’t put into words what are abstractions.
23:39 Q: But is there...
23:42 K: You heard what I said? (Laughs) I can put into words the fact that it’s green – you follow? – the plant.
23:56 That’s a fact. I can describe it, I can describe in words a fact. I can’t describe in words an abstraction – then it becomes, the words themselves become an abstraction, and therefore go beyond their meaning.
24:16 I wonder if you are getting all this.
24:18 Q: But there’s something else, too. When you look at something, say you see a cube.
24:23 K: Oh you boys, you don’t know.
24:26 Q: Say you see a cube, and I know from certain relationships I’ve had with cubes, something about its volume, you see?
24:42 Now, that’s also part of what I see. You see? I see the cube and I see the fact that it has a certain volume, which is partly an image.
24:52 K: That’s right.
24:53 Q: And it’s still partly factual, and it’s still part of what I see.
24:57 K: Yes, yes, that’s right. Go on, go on.
25:00 Q: Well that’s what I...
25:01 K: Yes, but what happens then? Go into it, sir.
25:07 Q: There it seems to be perfectly valid, that image.
25:10 K: Quite right.
25:11 Q: And it’s part of what I see.
25:13 K: It’s part of your...
25:15 Q: It’s part of the reality.
25:18 K: Part of the image you have about the plant. No?
25:22 Q: Well, yes.
25:23 K: That’s a fact.
25:25 Q: Yes.
25:26 K: So you are looking at that plant with the facts which you have accumulated, and through those facts you are looking.
25:39 Green, pale, creamy-coloured white – you follow? – and so on, delicate green – right?
25:50 – and you’re looking with all these verbal images at the plant.
25:54 Q: Well, yes.
25:57 K: Yes. Now can you look at it without those verbal images? Try it.
26:04 Q: Sir? Could we go deeper into the question of images and how to free oneself of all images?
26:16 K: I’ll show it to you. First of all, look at what we said. He asked me: what are emotions? Go step by step into it. What are emotions. I said: I don’t know what you mean by it. And he said, oh… And we began to explain – looking at a cloud, looking at a person, looking at a jersey, dirt – the reaction.
26:42 So, our emotions are reactions. Then we asked: is there an ‘emotion’, quotes, when there is no reaction?
26:59 Right? That can only take place when I can look at something – tree, you, the dirt, the sky, whatever it is – without the image.
27:13 Then I discover that images bring reactions. That’s a great truth which I’ve discovered. You follow? Therefore it means something to me, it’s not an abstraction.
27:32 So I’ve found that there is a reaction in me – to red, black, blue, whatever, plant or sky – as long as I have an image about it.
27:44 If I have an image about you then I have a reaction about you. If I have no image about you, I have no reaction; I look.
27:56 Right? I look and in that look there is a totally different kind of perception which is not based on a reaction.
28:12 Right. Now the next question is: how is it possible – no – how is it that I build images, and is it possible to be free of the images that I have built?
28:31 And are they not necessary, to have images, also?
28:35 Q: There’s one more thing that I’d like to ask in relation to this question, because, let’s say I’m going to open a door.
28:52 Now I can see the door but at the same time I’m using an image about it, knowing something about the mechanism of the door.
28:59 K: Of course, of course.
29:00 Q: So there is a...
29:01 K: Otherwise you’ll mistake it for a table. Of course you must have an image about the door.
29:05 Q: Yes, there are some images that you use and... (inaudible) K: So you’re going to discover. Look what you are saying – discover it! Discover it, don’t say it, discover it – that images are necessary in some cases and images are not necessary in other cases.
29:31 Q: Yes.
29:32 K: Now you’re going to discover that.
29:35 Q: How do you separate?
29:39 K: Wait, wait! You boys don’t take… you want everything quick. You can’t. This isn’t a… you have to find out. Is it possible then to say to oneself, where is the line between the necessity of images and the freedom from images?
30:00 Right? Find out. I must have an image when I open the door. Right? I must have an image when I walk and not walk into a tree or into a wall – otherwise I’ll bang myself.
30:22 I must have an image when I cross the road, otherwise I’ll be killed. Right? So, when is it necessary to have an image and is there a freedom from image?
30:38 When is it absolutely necessary? Go on.
30:41 Q: In relationship between people. In between…
30:45 K: …two people. That’s right. Which means what? Go on, push.
30:51 Q: Well, that means I mustn’t have an image when I look at you.
30:59 K: That means, in relationship. Right?
31:04 Q: Yes, right.
31:05 K: Now you’ve discovered something – pursue it. You need image in every other dimension except in relationship.
31:19 Right?
31:20 Q: I’m not convinced of that.
31:24 K: Don’t be convinced. I’m not trying to convince you, we’re examining, we’re investigating. If I wanted to convince you it would be silly on my part.
31:37 Q: But can’t you walk without an image?
31:41 K: Of course you can. Look, I must have an image when I cross the road, I must recognise the bus, the taxi, the car, otherwise I’d be killed.
31:57 Right? I must have an image when it rains, and so on. I must have various knowledge, which are images, when I do some technological job, when I drive a car.
32:16 Right? I see there must be images when there is a function to be done.
32:30 It is necessary. When Mr Porter does the kitchen garden, organic growing, he must have the knowledge of organic growth, organic soil.
32:45 He must have it. That is his image. His knowledge is his image. Right? Now, in relationship between you and me, if I have an image – you follow? – then the relationship is based on a reaction which is the outcome of an image.
33:10 Therefore today I like you, tomorrow I won’t like you when you say something brutal or when you say something contrary to what I want.
33:20 You follow? So you begin to find out for yourself that in relationship images breed conflict, breed antagonism, breed hatred.
33:34 That’s all.
33:35 Q: I’d like to ask, it seems to me it’s very important – you see, if I go back to the cube, that’s something, say in a cube, something that is cubic has a certain volume, it’s something that I can prove now, it’s something that I know.
33:58 K: Yes, sir, I understand.
33:59 Q: It’s not something that I guess.
34:00 K: You don’t call a cube a circle, it’s a cube.
34:02 Q: But the fact is that a cube has a certain volume. It’s something I can prove.
34:11 K: Yes, certain volume, certain depth, certain shape and so on.
34:16 Q: So it seems to me it’s very crucial to know what kind of things you really know and what kind of things you just don’t know and you never will know.
34:31 K: Wait, don’t start off: ‘you will never know’.
34:34 Q: Well, I’m just saying, I’m just asking that question: isn’t it important to know what it is you really know? And those kinds of thing you can use.
34:46 K: No, look what you’re asking. You’re asking: what are the things you know?
34:53 Q: Yes. Like the cube.
34:57 K: Cube, a circle, minus, plus, divide; the bus, the cloud, the wall, the staircase, (laughs) what is the distance between here and London – you know.
35:13 Q: Well, yes. To a certain extent, yes. Between here and London…
35:20 K: Yes, whatever it is, you know. I’m only talking that as an example. You know. Now, do you know me?
35:29 Q: Well, no, I can’t say that I do.
35:33 K: No, you don’t know me.
35:35 Q: No.
35:36 K: Why have an image about me?
35:38 Q: Well there’s no reason.
35:41 K: No. Don’t have it. To have an image about somebody whom you don’t know is irrational. And even if you know, to have an image about him is irrational too.
35:54 Q: Because a person constantly changes.
35:56 K: Because he’s changing. He might change or might not change.
35:59 Q: Yes.
36:00 K: So, to have image about somebody is irrational, insane. (Laughs) Right?
36:07 Q: Right.
36:09 K: That’s all. And now, do you have images about people? Of course you have.
36:19 Q: Well, yes.
36:21 K: Therefore you react, therefore you get angry. Or therefore you say, ‘You’re authoritarian.’ Because you have an image about what authoritarian is, according to your wish, according to your pleasure, and you – you follow?
36:41 So can you live without an image? Find out. Now, I want to lead further. Were you going to ask something?
36:47 Q: Yes.
36:48 K: No, Mrs Zimbalist.
36:49 Q: No, go ahead. Well, just this. When you perceive a person there is immediate information, there is immediate knowledge which is part of the image, outside of the image. But could we go into a little bit: at what point – that is inevitable, if I see you I know that I see you...
37:14 K: Of course, you won’t mistake me for Mr Smith.
37:17 Q: But at what point the operation of the accumulated knowledge, which is the image, becomes harmful.
37:30 K: When in relationship, which is a movement – relationship isn’t something static, it’s a movement – in that movement, if I make that movement into a static state, then the harm begins.
37:44 And the static state takes place when I have an image.
37:49 Q: Sir, I don’t see any problem. It’s like, if I look at you now, I know you’re Krishnamurti because you have certain colour hair, because of your face – this is knowledge I have. It seems to me that the images that I have about the world are not the problems themselves – factually he has brown hair, this is red, this is round – but when there is emotional colour.
38:06 K: That’s what I’m saying, sir – when you have emotion.
38:13 Which is, you have an image and you react according to that image, which is your emotion.
38:19 Q: But would you call it emotion if I see a person and remember certain things that they’ve done, and therefore that adds up to an image in my mind?
38:30 K: Yes. Somebody has cheated me, somebody has hurt me, somebody has hit me. Right? I haven’t forgotten that somebody has bit me but I have no image about that person. He has hit me – right? – why make an image about it? See the quality of the mind that says… For God’s sake, push. You have hit me, physically, and I have an image about you because you’ve hurt me.
39:08 And that image remains. Why should I have that image? The fact is you have hit me – full stop – why should I make an image about it?
39:21 Next time I’m going to be jolly careful.
39:23 Q: Well there you are.
39:25 K: Wait, wait! Listen to what I’m going to say! You have hit me, and because you have hit me, generally what takes place is: I have formed an image about you.
39:41 Right? And I react to that, and I say, ‘My God, you have hit me, I’m going to hit you back.
39:50 Wait till I get stronger or corner you some place.’ Now, if I don’t…
39:58 I want to live without an image because relationship is a movement, not a static state.
40:07 So, when you hit me it’s a fact.
40:15 Facts have no reaction. That’s the beauty of it – facts. You have hit me. Are you following all this? But my mind, my feeling says, ‘I must get him back’ – you follow?
40:40 Not to let that feeling flower.
40:44 Q: The minute you identify with that person, the feeling, the reactions, they come out.
40:55 K: Therefore if you live only in facts.
40:58 Q: Are you saying then that if you say, ‘This is a man who has hit me,’ and that does not in turn colour a reaction.
41:17 K: No, no.
41:18 Q: You’re aware of it.
41:19 K: I’m aware that you have hit me but I’ve no image, which is the past and according to that image I react.
41:22 Q: So you’re not responding to the past. Is that the crux of it?
41:25 K: I’m only watching the fact.
41:31 Q: Sir, may I just say it seems very difficult, because if one’s looking at a cloud and it’s a very beautiful cloud, I mean that’s a fact.
41:43 K: Of course.
41:44 Q: But then why does the mind have to say this?
41:50 K: What?
41:51 Q: That it’s a beautiful cloud.
41:52 K: It doesn’t have to say it. It only says it...
41:54 Q: But that’s what happens.
41:55 K: …if you want to communicate it with me.
41:56 Q: No, but if I’m alone out on a hill and I see a beautiful cloud, why does my mind have to continue repeating?
42:01 K: Because our habit of words. We’re caught in words. So we look at a cloud and say, ‘How beautiful that is.’ We see a woman going by, ‘How lovely,’ a nice dress, long hair, short hair – you follow?
42:14 – words flow out.
42:15 Q: Then what does one do about that?
42:20 K: Watch it. If you have an image about what you have heard just now – ‘watch it’ – and you say, ‘Well, I remember that, I must watch it,’ that’s an image, then you are reacting.
42:34 Now I want to go a little bit further. Wait a minute. Have I made this clear? You are sure?
42:46 Q: Yes.
42:47 K: Right? Are you sharing it or are you just agreeing?
42:49 Q: Could you say how suppression comes into that, how you push it down?
42:54 K: There is no suppression.
42:55 Q: When you look at the cloud.
42:57 K: No, no. When you look at a cloud you look at a cloud, why should I suppress?
43:01 Q: You say, ‘Oh, that’s beautiful,’ and then you say, ‘I shouldn’t do that.’ K: Ah, because you have an image that you should not, therefore you are reacting to that image.
43:11 Q: That is the psychological image.
43:15 K: Of course, old boy.
43:16 Q: So it’s not a factual image.
43:18 K: But I explained that. (Laughs) I want to go a little further.
43:27 Most of us live in images – right? – images of people. Images are ideas – right? – images are conclusions. And changing conclusions – I’ve concluded this one day and I don’t like it, I change it and accept another conclusion.
43:55 These are all various forms of images. Right? And most people live that way, live in images, ideas, pictures, symbols, conclusions.
44:16 Right? Find out if you do. If you live in images, that is the very essence of mediocrity. Have you understood the word mediocrity?
44:36 No?
44:37 Q: Conformity, mediocre.
44:43 K: Mediocre – you know what it means? The middle. Neither hot nor cold, neither good nor bad, neither this or that, just – you know.
44:59 So what K said just now, which is, he said if you have an image, symbol, conclusion, picture, ideas, beliefs – you follow? – they are all conclusions, they are all images.
45:17 And if you live in those images then that’s the very essence of mediocrity.
45:24 (Laughs) Q: Sir, is there a kind of relationship to the ideas, to the conclusions?
45:50 K: Those are images, I said. Look, sir, the other day I heard on the television an interview between the Archbishop of Canterbury and the interviewer – there was an interview.
46:04 And the questioner, the interviewer asked the Archbishop, he said, ‘What do you think of the various religions, Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, Protestant,’ dozens of them.
46:14 And he said, ‘Oh they’ve all got truths in them, some truth in it.’ And the interviewer said, ‘That’s remarkable for you to say it, because you are an Anglican High Priest, to acknowledge, to say that some of these religions have truth in it, that’s remarkable.’ And the Archbishop said, ‘But we have one thing none of them have.’ You follow?
46:51 And the interviewer said, ‘What is that, sir?’ ‘We have Jesus Christ, and none of them have it.’ Now look.
47:00 Follow his mind, watch his mind. Which is, he’s brought up, he’s conditioned in the idea of Jesus, which the Hindu is not, or the Muslim, or the… so on.
47:21 He’s conditioned. And he’s a greatly learned man. So he’s reacting according to his conditioning.
47:35 Right? When you react according to your conditioning you’re mediocre, though you may be most clever, erudite, have tremendous power, position, you know, decorations and kings – you know.
47:52 You are following what I am talking about? And most of us, when we are young, especially, to be aware that we do not have images and live that way.
48:09 Then we’ll be out of mediocrity.
48:16 And Brockwood is the place, must be a place where we are not mediocre.
48:27 (Pause) Sudden silence.
48:42 You know, I was thinking this morning before I came down, you know, when you look at the world – you know what is happening in the world – Mr Nixon chasing around Moscow, Teheran, China, he’s working for his election – you are following? – and for American power, position, prestige – he’s not considering the whole world.
49:25 Nor are the Russians, nor are the Hindu politicians. Nobody is considering the whole world – each one is considering his own particular part, his own particular position, his own country, his own power, in the name of the group, so on and so on.
49:47 Now, when you look at all this, they are very essence of mediocrity, and they’re ruling us.
49:56 You follow?
49:57 Q: So how does one respond to that?
50:04 K: Don’t be a mediocre. (Laughs) Which means, don’t seek power, position, prestige, my country and your country, my God and your blasted God.
50:23 So if you see what are the implications of mediocrity, if you really see it as you see that plant, which is not an abstraction, then you will burn everything out of you which is mediocre – following, putting somebody else in a higher position.
51:00 You follow? Don’t you do that here? If I flatter you, especially the girls, you’re great friends with me, aren’t you?
51:18 No? You’re all very silent.
51:27 And you follow people, don’t you? No? You see, when we come down do it, you don’t discuss.
51:42 You follow somebody, don’t you? That’s mediocre.
51:50 Q: It’s difficult enough to see it.
52:01 I mean, it would be very helpful if you could find out all this. It would be good if you could find out…
52:07 K: I’m doing it, old boy, I’m doing it now. I say look, if you imitate somebody, that very nature of imitation breeds mediocrity.
52:19 You’re neither hot nor cold, you’ve no passion, you’re not alive, you’re merely following some idiot, whether the older boy here or your leader.
52:38 Are you following all this?
52:50 (Laughs) No. (Pause) You know, when one hears this fact – fact – which is a fact, that mediocrity equals the cultivation of image – you’ve understood? – it burns into me.
53:28 You follow? The fact burns into me. It’s a real thing to me, not an idea, not a verbal statement.
53:40 It’s like touching a hot coal, it burns into me. And I say, ‘By Jove, I’m going to watch.’ I’m not going to imitate, follow, copy.
54:05 What is the point of being in Brockwood for three years and becoming a Krishna-conscious dancer?
54:12 You follow? (Laughs) You may not be a Krishna-conscious dancer but you’ll be another kind of dancer. I don’t know if you follow what I mean.
54:22 Q: Sir? Once we talked about what we were going to do when we left here, and you said, I think, I’m not sure, that it was very important to find something that you really liked to do, for a living.
54:36 But if I look at this in myself it seems to me that’s as dangerous as doing something you don’t like, because if I do exactly what I please for my living, it’s very easy to become totally lost in and ignore what’s going on.
54:57 K: Do you know what you want to do?
55:01 Q: No, not yet. No.
55:06 K: Then why do you speculate about it?
55:08 Q: I know what I’d like to do.
55:12 K: Wait. What would you like to do?
55:14 Q: Like? I don’t know, play music or become a – I don’t know.
55:21 K: Wait, sir. Wait, wait. You like to play music – why?
55:30 Q: It’s enjoyable.
55:32 K: Wait. Please, don’t… Go into it, investigate why. You have a picture of Rubenstein, Kreisler, Menuhin or Segovia, and their fame, their glory, their music, and you say, ‘My God, I’d like to be like that man, play as well as he does.’ Is that why you like the music, because you want to become famous?
56:02 Q: No. I don’t know, it could be part of it, but...
56:12 K: I mean, don’t be neither hot nor cold – find out.
56:19 It’s all right when you’re 13, 12, that’s different, but you’re much older than that, therefore you say, ‘Look, do I really want to become a musician, or is it my ambition which drives me through music to become famous?’ Therefore you have an image of what fame is and you’re reacting to that.
56:54 Therefore you don’t love music.
56:58 Q: I understand that, sir, but when I play music I enjoy it very much, just at the moment playing it.
57:10 K: Yes, all right, but what will you do?
57:11 Q: By doing this, isn’t it very easy to get lost, when I enjoy doing it, by myself?
57:21 K: Will you get lost? If you’re completely absorbed in music, will you get lost? You have to have food, you have to have clothes, you have to have shelter, you have to be in relation with somebody.
57:41 Right? So all these external things are going to pull you out of your self-centred interest.
57:52 So you have to find out, sir, what is your relationship with the world and what is your relationship with music and what is your relationship with yourself – haven’t you?
58:11 Why you are doing certain things. Why do I like music, or not like music?
58:22 Why do I want to be a writer?
58:29 Why? Or why do I want to become a saint? Why? Find out, sir, go into it.
58:52 Or a businessman. Do you want me to go into it?
59:00 Q: Yes, please.
59:03 K: Now why do I want to be a musician? Have I a real talent for it, irrespective of all the famous musicians?
59:18 Do I really love that music, or am I reacting to the image which I have of a musician or musicians?
59:36 According to that reaction I say I love music, because I want to be like those silly asses.
59:53 Sorry! And is it I don’t want music, I don’t want to do anything in life, I just want to drift?
1:00:02 Why? Is it I’m lazy? Mentally, physically, emotionally lazy, you know, incapable, therefore I just let drift.
1:00:29 And have I a talent, a gift, for writing? I don’t know. I’m going to find out. I write. I show it to somebody and he says, ‘Not quite.’ I get discouraged.
1:00:53 Or somebody says, ‘That’s pretty good stuff, keep on at it.’ You follow?
1:01:04 I have to find out.
1:01:07 Q: So all the judgement is based on people’s evaluation, mostly.
1:01:13 K: There must be. If I show what I’ve written to Aldous Huxley or to Edie Lewis, they say, ‘That’s rubbish, old boy.’ But I want to know if it’s rubbish – you follow?
1:01:30 – not what they say. I want to know if it’s rubbish. How shall I know if it’s rubbish? So I find out – have I really something to say? If I’ve something to say, I’ll find my own style, not their style.
1:01:52 You follow?
1:02:03 Then I create a new style which is mine. (Laughs) Mine in the sense I’m not selfish about it. I feel very strongly about – what? – about relationship.
1:02:20 I feel very strongly that images are destructive, and I write about it, I feel it.
1:02:32 And it creates its own style. I’m not interested whether Aldous Huxley or Mr Lewis or some other person, critic, praises it or doesn’t praise it; it is so.
1:02:46 Then it gives me vitality – you understand? – I don’t depend on anybody. So in the same way, I have to find out. If I want to write, if I want to play, if I want to, you know, go into business, art, anything, I want to be clear.
1:03:30 (Pause) You know, during the war, the Second World War, I was staying with Aldous Huxley at his house.
1:04:06 You know Aldous Huxley? A very well-known writer. He’s dead. And I’ve known him before, since 1935. And during the war I was staying with him. And he used to stay with us at Ojai, so I was staying with him. And one day on the walk – we used to go out for a walk every evening – he said, ‘Why don’t you write something, put it down on a piece of paper?’ I’d never done it before.
1:04:36 You understand what I’m saying? I’d never done it and I felt dreadfully shy because he said, ‘After you’ve written, let me see it.’ I said, ‘Oh my God!’ He, Aldous Huxley, has extraordinary good style, he was well-recognised as a writer and so on.
1:05:03 So I sat down for three or four days, couldn’t put anything down on paper, I was too nervous. So then one day I wrote something or other and a few days later I wrote something every day and I showed it to him.
1:05:17 He said, ‘My God, man, write, keep at it. You have something to say, keep at it, go at it.’ You follow?
1:05:29 He didn’t encourage or discourage me. If you have something to say, you will create it.
1:05:39 If you have nothing, be quiet, don’t pretend. Because if you pretend then you’re lost. If you say ‘I know nothing, I don’t know how to write, I don’t know how to play music, I want to find out,’ then you’ll find out. You follow? To do anything, my friends, you have to have passion.
1:06:06 You understand what I mean by that?
1:06:16 And you cannot have passion if you’re mediocre.
1:06:26 Mediocrity means conformity to an image.
1:06:31 Q: But usually in school, especially if you take a few exams you have to write something, they give you a topic, which maybe you don’t feel it.
1:06:58 K: Write something to pass your beastly exam. But passing exams isn’t going to make you a writer.
1:07:02 Q: No, no, but the whole of this structure is training you to be mediocre.
1:07:10 K: Therefore recognise where you have to play the game and where you don’t have to.
1:07:20 I have to pass an exam, or whatever it is. What am I to do? I have to. They sent me to various schools hoping I would end up in a university and I never passed one single examination.
1:07:45 Right? (Laughs) I did very well in a class or French or whatever it was, Latin, and when I got to the examination hall I couldn’t.
1:07:57 Blank paper. You understand? And they sent me to Sorbonne and all the rest of it – I couldn’t pass.
1:08:11 They said, ‘That’s enough.’ (Laughs) Because I didn’t – probably I’m not out for a job, you see.
1:08:22 My life is different, don’t compare my life with yours.
1:08:29 So you have to find out what you clearly for yourself want to do.
1:08:43 Not according to any image – political, religious, literary or artistic image.
1:08:51 You know, that’s awfully difficult, you don’t fool yourself.
1:09:04 If you find out it’ll give you energy – you understand? – you’re boiling with it.
1:09:17 Then you’re not concerned about your health, your body, whether you’ve got – you know – whether you’re all right, whether your pulse is all right, your head (laughs), whether you’re eating – you know?
1:09:26 Q: But it might not be in correlation with the society around you.
1:09:33 K: Who cares?
1:09:36 Q: Well, if one has to earn a living one has to...
1:09:46 K: You’ll be in the garden, do something – you don’t have to fit into society.
1:09:58 Society says you must become an engineer, because they need engineers, or a lawyer, or a butcher, or an army general – why should I?
1:10:13 Don’t you see, it gives you vitality, strength, you can stand alone against all this world.
1:10:27 (Pause) Sir, we’ve talked for an hour – I don’t know, what time is it?
1:10:51 Quarter to? We’ve talked an hour and a quarter.
1:11:02 Now just listen: what have you got out of this?
1:11:11 What have you understood from this morning? Understood, not verbally – what have you, as facts, what have you gathered?
1:11:30 Will you be mediocre? I’m sorry to rub it in, I’m going to, because it’s terrible, I wouldn’t waste my life talking to you if I said, ‘My God, you’re all going to become mediocre and just become businessmen or artists or something and just – you know?’ I say what a waste of my time and your time.
1:12:00 So you’ve heard what mediocrity is, verbally – right? – you’ve understood verbally what mediocrity is, and are you going to fall into that trap?
1:12:16 Don’t tell me you’re not going to.
1:12:24 I don’t know, you have to tell it to yourself. And that’s part of your education, surely.
1:12:35 To live here, when you leave this place you’re real revolutionaries, you know, not the bomb-throwing variety, but the real people who are not conforming, who are not mediocre, who are really clear-sighted, no deception, no hypocrisy, nothing.
1:13:05 You follow? So at the end of an hour and a quarter where are we?
1:13:31 (Pause) Now to change the subject – we’d better because… – do you know what meditation is?
1:13:46 I’ll stop in a few minutes, it’s lunch time. Do you know what meditation is? You know, people are talking a great deal about it – papers, books, Krishna-conscious and Sufis and everybody is talking about meditation, I don’t know why but they are.
1:14:13 Do you know what it means? Have you done anything of it?
1:14:17 Q: Isn’t looking without an image meditation?
1:14:27 Looking without images.
1:14:28 K: We’re going to find out, don’t...
1:14:32 Q: Isn’t that meditation?
1:14:37 K: Maybe. Have you ever sat very quietly? Have you? Come on, sir. Absolutely quietly – have you? Do you know what it means to sit quietly? Close your eyes and not even allow the eyeballs to move.
1:15:05 Have you ever done it? (Laughs) No. When I was a boy of nine, it’s among the old Brahmin tradition, not the new Brahmin who are made (laughs), the old Brahmin tradition was that you, among a great many other things, you passed through certain ceremony and you were told from that day you are a Brahmin, and you were told to meditate, you kept absolutely quiet.
1:15:52 Your father or the priest sat beside you on each side and you sat quiet. If you moved, the father tapped you, either gently or bang!
1:16:04 (Laughs) You follow? So that you learnt to sit absolutely quiet.
1:16:14 Your thoughts may be whirling all over the place but your body was completely still.
1:16:24 Will you do it sometime, just for the fun of it and see what happens?
1:16:33 For the fun of it, not because I’m asking you, just to see.
1:16:43 Then from there you move. Then the mind, wandering all over the place, thinking about shoes, thinking about your bicycle, thinking about what you’re going to say to your friend, you know, whirling all over the place.
1:17:07 And to see whether thought can be quiet. I won’t go into all that. You have to find out. (Pause) Of course, all this implies no drugs, no drink – you understand?
1:17:38 The more you meditate, you become extraordinarily sensitive – no drugs, no drink, no smoking, you become so sensitive, alive.
1:17:49 And you have tremendous energy, either to do mischief or not to do mischief.
1:18:10 I’m afraid if you have tremendous energy you’ll do mischief if you don’t have the right kind of education.
1:18:24 Right, sir, that’s enough, isn’t it? Right? That’s enough?