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BR72DSS1.04 - Refreshing the mind
Brockwood Park, UK - 4 June 1972
Discussion with Staff and Students 1.04



0:00 This is J. Krishnamurti’s fourth discussion with teachers and students at Brockwood Park, 1972.
0:12 Krishnamurti: What shall we discuss this morning?
0:29 Come in.
0:38 Have you any suggestions? Questioner: Why we are frightened of our parents?
0:51 Why are we? Questioner: Why we are frightened of our parents?
0:55 K: God knows! Why are we frightened of our parents. It’s a good point, isn’t it? Are you frightened of your parents?
1:09 Q: No.
1:17 K: No? Oh yes, you are.
1:19 Q: Some of us yes, some of us no.
1:23 Q: If it’s not the parents then it’s others who take their place.
1:31 K: Why are we frightened of our parents and frightened of older people, of people who are a little more aggressive, dominant, assertive – why are we frightened?
1:50 I can understand why one is frightened of one’s parents, because, you know, they can punish you, they can beat you up (laughs), if they are like it, and they can stop your money, force you to do things.
2:10 And most of us do behave properly through fear, don’t we?
2:20 Don’t we? Let’s be honest, shall we? Really honest, not pretend. We do things out of fear. We don’t do anything for its own sake, for the love of something, for the beauty of something, but we are forced through fear, through compulsion, through environment, through pressure and influence, to do something which we don’t want to do.
3:07 We want to do something, and the parents say don’t do that, do this.
3:15 And as they have the power we yield, through fear.
3:25 So most of our actions, aren’t they, are based on fear, or on flattery.
3:37 No? Would you agree on that?
3:43 Q: Yes.
3:44 K: Not agree but actually realise that we do behave through pressure, through fear, through reward and punishment.
3:57 Why do we do this?
4:08 The cause of it is fairly obvious – because they have the power, they have the money, they have the – our parents, our teachers, the older generation, they push us, drive us.
4:26 And from that we gradually build up in the psyche, in ourselves, a sense of doing something which we really don’t want to do, but do something under pressure.
4:45 Right? Is this so or not?
4:58 Come on, sirs, discuss. Now is there an action without pressure, without fear?
5:16 To do something without any kind of fear.
5:24 Q: But sir, there is a motive.
5:32 K: We’ll come to that. Tunki, do you do something under fear?
5:43 Behave, get out of bed, come to meals punctually, study when you don’t want to, under pressure?
5:56 Q: A little bit.
5:59 K: A little bit. Why? Examine it. Why do you do something under pressure, when you’re afraid?
6:14 If you’re told, ‘Look, if you don’t behave properly in this school you’ll be sent back.’ And you catch your breath and do what you’re told, and then take it out on the person who says, ‘We’ll send you home,’ that you are aggressive, you know, that you are authoritarian, all that tommyrot.
6:38 But the real thing is you’re frightened. Right?
6:41 Q: No, the pressure of that is not frightened, it’s a kind of an idea which has become part of your idea because you’re so used to it.
7:02 K: Yes, Tunki, but you act under fear, under pressure, you act through...
7:03 Q: You don’t see the relevance of doing it. I mean, not clearly. You don’t see clearly the relevance of doing it.
7:12 K: There may be other reasons, there may be other pressures, other influences, but when you’re surrounded, when you’re disinclined to do something and you have to do something else, you do it, don’t you, under compulsion.
7:31 Compulsion means fear.
7:38 And what are you going to do about it?
7:44 Q: Perhaps try to understand what we’re supposed to do.
7:54 K: Try and understand?
7:58 Q: Whatever happens to be, if we understand what we’re being asked to do, then perhaps...
8:02 K: Just a minute, sir. I’m here, a student, and I don’t want to study. I’m rather lazy, my mind is rather sluggish, and I refuse to study.
8:17 What is my relationship in this community with the educator and with the others?
8:29 Go on, sir, apply.
8:36 The educator says to me, ‘You must study, you must learn,’ and I don’t want to learn, I’m lazy, indifferent.
8:54 What shall I do? He tells me several times, ‘Do study, old boy, you know, use your brain, use your capacity, cultivate whatever brain you have, put your mind into it,’ and I refuse to do it.
9:22 First of all, I may want to go out for a walk, or I’ve not had enough exercise, food, my body’s sluggish, dull, heavy, eaten too much.
9:50 And I don’t care, I just want to drift through life. What shall I do, what is my action in relation to my educator?
10:05 What shall I do? Go on, sir, apply. And I’m afraid that’s one of our problems here, isn’t it?
10:22 We’ve got brains all right, but we don’t apply it.
10:31 Why? And you’ll apply it under pressure.
10:33 Q: Just a moment. But something else that is also learning, but it is not suggested we are interested.
10:39 K: So you will only do something in which you are interested?
10:46 Is that it? You’ll study something in which you’re interested. Is that it?
10:53 Q: You have the drive to do it but…
10:57 K: Tunki, go step by step. Is that it? I’m not interested in mathematics, I’m not interested in science, I’m not interested in – I don’t know – writing or whatever it is, so I take the easiest way out.
11:17 The other day we were talking about examinations and unfortunately I said I never passed an examination.
11:27 (Laughs) And some of you took it up. That was a delight! There was somebody who didn’t pass any beastly examination.
11:43 But you have to pass examinations, you have to test your mind. You’ve got a mind, you can’t just say, ‘Well, I will slip through life along the easiest path.’ Life isn’t easy, it is arduous.
12:05 So what will you do, what shall I do being a student here, rather sluggish, physically, what shall I do?
12:25 And the educator says – he’s in a difficult position too, isn’t he?
12:33 He wants to educate you, he wants to help you to cultivate your brain and your body, you know, everything, and you refuse.
12:44 So he resorts to pressure, to threat. No? ‘If you don’t do this you won’t come back next year.’ And you say, ‘My God, I must be careful, because I’m frightened of my parents.
13:03 I had a jolly good time here.’ In other schools you’d be under pressure, competition – you follow?
13:10 – driven. Here you drift, so you slip along.
13:23 Now can I do something, do the right – I won’t say the right thing – study, be punctual, be careful with my body, with my mind, you know, with my whole energy, without any kind of fear?
14:05 (Pause) You know you’re afraid, don’t you?
14:19 Be simple – right? – come on. Right. What are you going to do about it? Is that the way to live? Come on. You know when you are afraid what you do, what happens to you?
14:55 You become a hypocrite, you say yes, and the moment he turns his back onto you, you say something quite the opposite.
15:09 So you live a double life, don’t you, a hypocritical life.
15:18 And that’s what we do – we grow up that way. That means constant conflict within oneself, always sycophantic, playing up – you know all the things you do.
15:45 So is that the way to live? And that certainly isn’t what Brockwood wants to do. Go on, sir.
15:55 Q: You said about you only do what one is interested in, which also, I mean, besides that one only sees the relevancy.
16:33 K: Relevancy?
16:34 Q: Yes.
16:35 K: With regard to what?
16:36 Q: Learning. I mean why we learn that. I mean that it has a meaning to you.
16:39 K: Sir, why are you educated? Let’s begin that way. Why do you want to be educated, or your parents send you here – why do you want to be educated?
16:54 Q: To know.
16:56 K: To know. No, educated. To know mathematics? To learn history, geography, biology, mathematics – to learn?
17:12 Not to know but to learn, isn’t it? Oh, come on, sirs.
17:18 Q: Why have we resistance to learn?
17:23 K: You’re here to learn, aren’t you?
17:27 Q: Yes.
17:28 K: Now why do you resist learning?
17:44 Learning outside, what is happening in the world, learning about the outward political, religious activities of the world outside you – don’t you want to learn about all that?
18:04 Q: Yes.
18:05 K: And don’t you also want to learn what’s going on inside you, inside your skin?
18:12 So you want to learn, don’t you? Do you? (Laughs) Look, sir, learning means learning, not just shaking your head, say, ‘Yes, I agree,’ and not do it.
18:25 It’s like a man who ploughs and ploughs and ploughs, never sows.
18:32 You understand what that means?
18:36 Q: Of course.
18:37 K: You’re like that. You all sit down, shake your head, say yes, and not do a thing about it.
18:55 So we are here to learn, and you really don’t want to learn.
19:10 You don’t know a thing about what is happening in the world, politically, do you? You’re not interested in politics, are you? No? No. Why not? You know, last night on television they were talking about internationalism, League of Nations.
19:42 And for years and years and years, since 1945 when it began, the League of Nations, they’ve been talking about internationalism, good spirit, right relationship between… – and they don’t have it.
19:56 They were still taking about it last night, about internationalism. And you know, it’s utter bilge. (Laughs) They are like people who are ploughing, ploughing, ploughing, and never sowing anything. You don’t know anything about what is happening in Russia, in China, do you?
20:20 Why not? Why don’t you learn? For God’s sake. Why not? Aren’t you curious? (Laughs) And you know, if you don’t learn what is happening outside of you, how can you learn anything about what’s happening inside also?
20:48 Both must go together, mustn’t they?
20:55 (Laughs) Look, I’m not scolding you. I really feel terrible that a group of young people come here and not learn, not interested in politics, in religion.
21:18 Again, last night they were showing all the… what India has exported to this country – Krishna-consciousness, some other bilge – you know, all that kind of stuff.
21:36 For an hour they were showing it. I was really quite appalled. And at the end of it the lady said, ‘This is the only thing India exports.’ (Laughter) You know, if you don’t learn, and if you are not revolutionary in the deep sense of that word, what will you be when you grow up?
22:16 Mediocre? Less than a mediocre, won’t you? Oh, come on, sirs!
22:19 Q: Sir? A mind which is still to do what it is supposed to, how can such a mind inquire?
22:37 I mean, about politics, about what’s going on.
22:38 K: Learn – not inquire – learn, observe what is happening. You don’t have to have opinions about it – know what is happening.
22:50 Learning. You understand? Learning. Learn, not say, ‘Well, Nixon is right,’ or Nixon is wrong or, ‘Heath is marvellous’ – just learn.
23:14 You should be able to discuss with me.
23:21 Q: I think what Roger is saying is that if you’re told to take notes for this lesson, that’s being told what to do.
23:32 K: That’s part of your learning.
23:33 Q: Right.
23:34 Q: They are completely caught up in the system.
23:35 K: How do you know it’s corrupting the system? You don’t know anything about it.
23:41 Q: I didn’t say it’s a corrupting system.
23:47 K: Then what did you say?
23:51 Q: Just a system.
23:52 K: All right. Learn about it, find out how to learn without taking notes. Or take notes and how to learn from notes.
24:07 You’ve already formed opinions. Good God, at this age! Come on, sirs. (Pause) You know, there’s going to be a meditation shed.
24:37 Have you seen that little shed, behind? There’s going to be a meditation shed. I like that idea, being a shed, you know, not a marvellous room and all that kind of thing, just a shed.
24:52 Do you know what meditation is? Shouldn’t you know what it is? Don’t you want to learn about it?
25:02 Q: Yes. But just a moment, we haven’t finished discussing why do we...
25:10 K: I’m taking many things, Tunki, not just one. Not just fear – I’m taking so many things, politics, religion, meditation, deception – they are all involved.
25:25 We are all involved in it. So I’m saying: don’t you want to learn about everything that’s happening in the world?
25:38 Not specialise, I don’t mean specialise. I know nothing about biology. I don’t know anything about higher mathematics but I’m terribly interested to see what is happening in the world.
26:02 How the scientists come to a conclusion and hold on to their conclusions. How society is corrupt, and whether it’s possible to change society.
26:17 Or will societies always be corrupt?
26:24 You follow what I’m talking about? You have to find out, haven’t you, because you’re going to grow up into all this.
26:36 Q: But haven’t you just said that we don’t need to know anything about biology?
26:51 K: It doesn’t mean that. You have to know biology. I’m particularly not interested in biology, but I’m interested in something else. Don’t take me as a pattern, for God’s sake. You understand? I am a cuckoo. I’m slightly off my head, or whatever it is. Don’t take after me, be something yourself, find out.
27:16 Q: Isn’t that coming to a conclusion, saying you’re slightly off your head?
27:30 (Laughter) K: (Laughs) That’s a desperate conclusion, sir!
27:37 I’m not off my head.
27:44 (Laughs) Now, sir, what shall we do?
28:04 We are here to learn, from each other, from books, from observation.
28:17 Learn. You know what it does to you?
28:32 I won’t go into it.
28:41 I want to learn about fear. You understand? That’s where we started. I want to learn about fear – not how to be fearless, but I want to learn what it means, why it exists, what is the meaning of it – you follow?
29:02 – what are the actions that come out of fear. I want to learn all about fear. So I have to watch myself being afraid.
29:16 Can you do that? Don’t say it’s wrong to be afraid, or right, or explain it away, just watch fear in yourself.
29:31 Can you watch it? Can you learn about fear? As you learn about mathematics, as you learn history, can you learn about fear?
29:45 Q: Sir? It’s a lot harder with fear because if I look at myself when I’m afraid then the next time I see it I recognise it and I create a formula to combat it.
30:01 K: Yes. You’re learning, aren’t you?
30:04 Q: Well I know…
30:05 K: Wait. Watch it, sir. I am afraid. I watch it, and then from that watching I form a formula, and with that formula, next time I’m afraid I apply that formula.
30:21 So I’m living in a formula. Right? Have you learnt that much, or are you just saying these words without any content behind it?
30:37 Q: No, I understand that if I have a formula, some kind of idea that will work it out, that doesn’t work it out either.
30:47 K: So have you learnt that formulas don’t help?
30:54 Have you learnt that?
30:55 Q: Couldn’t you see that the formula was made up in the past?
31:01 K: Yes, yes, learn one little fact – that I become aware that I am frightened.
31:09 Right? Then from that awareness I form, I conclude that I mustn’t be afraid.
31:23 That becomes my formula, doesn’t it? Now next time the fear arises I say I mustn’t be afraid.
31:34 So I’m living in a formula, not with the fact that I’m living with fear.
31:44 Right? Now, have you learnt that much?
31:53 Have you learnt that much, as you’ve learnt the snake is poisonous, certain kinds of snake are poisonous?
32:01 Have you learnt that much? Come on, sir.
32:13 And if you have not, why not? A simple fact like that.
32:17 Q: There’s a big difference between understanding it...
32:20 K: No, that’s what I’m asking you: why haven’t you learnt that? Learnt meaning not merely a verbal conclusion but say, ‘Yes, that is a fact, I see it in myself.
32:32 I am afraid and I say to myself I must never be afraid.’ That’s a conclusion I’ve come to, and next time fear arises I apply my conclusion, say I mustn’t be afraid.
32:50 So I resist fear. I don’t learn about fear but I know now I’m resisting fear. Have I learnt that much? Have you learnt that much? Vishwas, have you learnt that much?
33:12 Come on, sirs.
33:16 Q: What is it, when he says I can understand that intellectually – what’s that mean?
33:27 K: What’s happening, intellectually?
33:28 Q: I mean, don’t you understand everything intellectually?
33:29 K: No, that’s not understanding, is it, if I say, ‘Well…’ I explained what takes place – I am afraid.
33:36 I conclude from that: I mustn’t be afraid. That’s a statement, a verbal statement. That’s meaningless unless I apply it. It’s like ploughing and never sowing. (Laughs) Q: But why would you say intellectually – what’s that got to do with it?
34:00 K: That’s part of our education. We are intellectually very cultivated.
34:03 Q: But isn’t understanding intellect?
34:04 K: Yes, sir, that’s what I’m saying.
34:06 Q: Just to understand it. When you understand it you learn, you see it.
34:12 K: Ah. By listening to this fact that when you’re frightened you form a conclusion – that’s merely a statement, isn’t it, a verbal statement without any actual fact.
34:28 It’s an abstraction.
34:31 Q: And if you see it? If you see that you come to a...
34:38 K: Sir, when you see something...
34:40 Q: ...you’ve got a formula about fear.
34:41 K: When you see something dangerous, that’s not a – you do something, it’s a fact.
34:48 In the same way, when you see you’re frightened and you come to a conclusion, that’s a fact.
34:54 Q: Yes.
34:55 K: Have I learnt that fact?
35:05 So you see, we remain at that level, at that superficial level, and fear goes on, doesn’t it?
35:33 And so we always live on a superficial level and at a deeper level fear goes on all the time through life.
35:42 I’m afraid of my parents, I’m afraid of my bosses, I’m afraid of my neighbour – you follow?
35:49 – I live with an enormous amount of fear.
36:00 And out of that fear I do all kinds of neurotic things.
36:07 Now have I learnt that much?
36:15 My lord!
36:22 Not to resist fear but to learn all about fear. Learn through application, not just reading about it.
36:37 (Laughs) Through daily application I learn about fear, I watch it. Oh, sir, you come with me! I have to learn what love is, I have to learn what fear is, what pleasure is, what is death – you know, there are so many things in life.
37:09 Why should I marry? What is the whole system of marriage? Why has it become such an important thing, marriage?
37:40 So is my mind and your mind capable of learning?
37:49 Not coming to a conclusion – you understand? – learning. If it is not capable of learning, why isn’t it?
38:07 Am I lazy?
38:14 I want to find the easiest way of living?
38:22 Yes? Is there any easy way in life? (Laughs) Learn, sir. Dr Bohm is going to talk to you about science this afternoon. How do you learn what he’s saying?
38:50 What, just listen, catch a lot of words and discuss about science?
38:57 Or are you going to learn? You follow? You know? Curious, hungry, wanting to find out.
39:08 Q: This only happens when you’re not occupied.
39:27 K: Are you occupied?
39:30 Q: Well, usually when you’re in a system, come from any classes, mostly you are occupied.
39:42 K: Are you occupied, Tunki? Don’t talk about systems. Are you, Tunki, so occupied with yourself that you can’t learn?
39:58 So occupied with your machinery, with your aeroplane, with your pleasure, that you can’t learn about what is being said?
40:14 I want to learn how to sit at table and eat properly.
40:22 I want to learn. And I’ve watched very carefully all my life how people eat, how I eat.
40:36 I watched it in India – we’re rather sloppy – I’ve watched it in Italy, I’ve watched it in France, I’ve watched it in America, England.
40:49 Watch – you follow? – learn!
40:52 Q: It’s just I noticed that because I couldn’t finish what we were discussing and you changed the subject, my mind is occupied with the thing previously.
41:11 K: Why?
41:12 Q: Because it doesn’t finish.
41:13 K: Why should it be finished? We are moving. I told you, we have to learn about so many things, not just one thing.
41:18 Q: No, but unless it is finished properly...
41:22 K: Wait, Tunki. My point is – I quite agree; I’m coming back to that – I said we have to learn about a hundred things in life, haven’t we?
41:32 Life is a process of learning all the time.
41:35 Q: Yes.
41:37 K: Right? Now, we started with fear. Are you aware that you’re frightened, know that you’re frightened, conscious that you are frightened?
41:58 Q: No.
41:59 K: Why not? That means you’re fearless, you have no fear? (Pause) Q: I must have something… if I have to do something which I have to finish, or whatever it is, unless I’m thinking, if I have a certain problem which I have to solve...
42:22 K: No, Tunki, leave all that aside. I’m asking you now: do you know you’re frightened?
42:29 Q: No.
42:30 K: Why don’t you? Either you’re not frightened or you don’t know you’re frightened.
42:41 Q: I don’t feel frightened.
42:46 K: So you’re not frightened, so you’ve no problem of fear.
42:54 Then it’s simple, leave it.
43:04 Then since you don’t know what fear is, next time, watch.
43:14 Watch yourself and see if you’re frightened about something. Find out. You may not be afraid now but find out if you are frightened, and learn.
43:31 You follow?
43:41 I want to learn about jealousy – don’t you? – about imitation.
43:49 Right? Are you imitating? I want to learn – you understand, sir? – I want to find out if I’m imitating. I’m imitating when I put on these trousers.
44:10 Right? In India, when I go to India, I put on different things. There I’m imitating.
44:16 Q: Can I? While you’re speaking something, there is a question coming to my mind.
44:28 K: What’s that?
44:30 Q: Well, it’s not directly related to this.
44:34 K: Go on, Tunki.
44:36 Q: With you I can have an interest in what you’re speaking.
44:42 K: Yes.
44:43 Q: But now, seeing a few classes with another person, since the other person is also not...
44:55 so you cannot create the intensity.
44:57 K: I understand. So you are saying…
45:00 Q: So there is no…
45:02 K: I understand, Tunki. You are saying: I like to discuss with you, with this person sitting on the chair.
45:11 I like to discuss with you but I can’t do the same with another.
45:18 Right? Then what are you going to do? You’re going to live with another, not with me.
45:28 Q: Yes, but how can you...
45:30 K: Wait, Tunki, stick to that point. I’m not going to be with you every day.
45:44 And you would like to discuss with me every day. And I say sorry, you can’t do that, I’ll do it twice a week with you, for an hour.
45:57 And you say, ‘All right, but I can’t do the same with another.’ Why? Why can’t you? Frightened?
46:05 Q: No.
46:06 K: Wait, go step by step. Frightened? Tunki, learn. Frightened?
46:13 Q: No.
46:15 K: He’s not active, creative, alive? Wait, wait.
46:19 Q: That’s what I feel, yes.
46:22 K: Yes. Now, what are you going to do about it?
46:25 Q: One thing which I think is that he’s in somewhat in the same subject.
46:37 I mean, you’re talking about a subject which you are living in it, you have an interest, but this person...
46:48 K: …has not. What are you going to do about it? You have to live with that.
46:54 Q: I can’t learn anything the same subject if the other person is not intense about it.
47:00 K: Look, I’m intensely interested – I – intensely interested to find out all about fear.
47:07 Q: Yes.
47:08 K: Right through – you understand? – death, what public opinion says, about fear in every way, conscious, unconscious, I want to learn all about it.
47:22 I’m terribly interested in it, because I don’t want to live with…
47:30 You follow? Right? And I’ve learnt a great deal about it. Now you are with a person who is not interested in fear, who is not interested actively that way.
47:45 Then what will you do with that person? And you have to live with him. This is a community. You have to live in this community. And you are living in this community. And one of the people, or several of the people in that community are not interested in fear.
48:05 I’m taking that as an example. So what are you going to do? Just get bored?
48:09 Q: Is there any need to talk about fear? Why don’t you talk about something which the person is intense in?
48:19 K: What are you intensely interested in? Why aren’t you interested in fear? That’s part of life. Sex is part of life – why aren’t you interested in it? Money is part of life, politics, religion, meditation, this whole sense of following somebody – why aren’t you interested in all that?
48:48 Only one thing.
48:50 Q: Well I don’t know, you have to ask the person.
48:56 K: I’m asking you, Tunki. (Laughs) Q: I don’t see it. I’m not interested in that.
49:01 K: What am I to do, Tunki, living in this community, when I’m interested in something and I find the other, the older person with whom I’m trying to learn, is not interested?
49:14 What am I to do? And the world is like this, not just this place. You understand?
49:21 Q: I can’t do it with this person. I have to go on myself. If I really...
49:30 K: Wait, wait. Listen carefully to what you’re saying. You’re saying if that person is not interested then I have to do it all by myself.
49:43 Right?
49:44 Q: Yes.
49:46 Q: Sir, if one is genuinely interested in something then this form of dependency… you don’t need to talk to anybody.
49:57 K: I don’t know your name. Roger?
50:00 Q: Roger, yes.
50:01 K: Are you just saying this verbally or you doing it actually?
50:03 Q: I mean that.
50:04 K: Actually do it.
50:05 Q: Yes.
50:07 K: So you’re saying that you don’t depend on anybody to learn.
50:17 You’re not dependent on a person living in this community who is not interested as much as you’re interested.
50:32 Therefore you say, ‘I have to do this by myself.’ Right?
50:38 Q: Yes.
50:40 K: Is that what you’re saying, all of you?
50:46 Q: No.
50:48 K: (Laughs) Look, old boy, just listen to me for a minute.
50:56 I am terribly interested – I really mean this – to find out what meditation is. I’m really interested. I want to go to the very end of it, not just drop off in the middle.
51:12 And I’ve listened to dozens of people talk about meditation, dozens of people – their systems, their gurus, their practices, what they do.
51:25 And I see they are all imitating. Wait, just listen. So I say that’s all… I want to find out.
51:36 Q: But in order to see what meditation actually is you have to come in touch with people, you have to talk to people.
51:43 K: I didn’t.
51:44 Q: You observed, you see.
51:46 K: I just observed.
51:48 Q: Yes, you observed, you see what people are doing.
51:51 K: Therefore you have to stand alone.
51:53 Q: Agreed.
51:54 K: Are you capable of doing it? In order to find out, go to the end of things?
52:02 Q: I don’t know.
52:06 K: You don’t know, therefore you say, ‘I’m going to watch, learn, step by step.’ I learn from Laborde, if I can.
52:18 If he’s consumed with himself, with his health, with his worries, I can’t learn from him.
52:25 But I’ll learn as much as I can from him. I learn from each person as much as I can. You follow? Tunki says the people are not interested in what I’m interested in.
52:38 Q: Sir, this form of interest, it can be just an influence. I mean, somebody comes to me and says, ‘Okay…’ – he describes something, or, I don’t know, something.
52:52 That creates this… (inaudible) K: Look, I’m trying to interest you very much in fear.
53:00 (Laughs) Right? But you don’t, you’re not interested in it. You just go a millimetre and stop.
53:11 Q: Well what I mean is, when you’re genuinely interested in fear then you just...
53:19 K: My dear chap, are you interested in fear?
53:22 Q: Yes.
53:24 K: Now, are you willing to learn, go to the very end of it? Right. Begin. Do you know what fear is? Are you aware of it?
53:33 Q: Yes.
53:34 K: Then what do you do? When you are aware that you are frightened, what is the next step, what is the next reaction?
53:43 Q: You just watch it.
53:48 K: That’s no good – convey it to me. I am afraid. I’m afraid of you and I’m aware of that.
54:02 What is my next… what shall I do from that? What happens then? I learn, I move, therefore what happens? I watch. Why am I frightened of you? Because you’re stronger, you’re cleverer, you’re more clever, you’re more bright, you’re more intelligent, therefore I want to be like you?
54:27 Therefore I feel… Or you are my parent, I’m frightened. You follow? So I learn. Move from reaction to reaction, find out!
54:42 And that is all day long, not just a few minutes.
54:51 Are you doing that?
54:58 I want to know why I take drugs, why I want to dominate people – I want to learn – why I’m lazy, why I’m rude.
55:19 Good lord! You know what politeness is, Tunki?
55:30 To be polite – do you know what it means? To be considerate. Are you? (Laughs) There you are.
55:46 I want to learn why I am not considerate.
55:59 When somebody comes into the room I put my feet on the table and go on with what I’m doing.
56:08 When there are people talking, I go and bang on the piano. Am I considerate? Come on, sirs.
56:18 Q: Some consideration is not really considered, but it is because you used to it. I mean, when you are small you are told that...
56:36 K: Tunki, leave others – are you considerate?
56:39 Q: How can I test that?
56:43 K: Can’t you test it? You mean to say you don’t know when you’re considerate and not considerate? Can’t you apply it, test it?
56:57 Q: Well... (inaudible) K: Don’t… (laughs) Are you considerate, Tunki?
57:03 Q: I’d say yes.
57:06 K: Then it’s simple – it’s finished. Then you’re polite, considerate, kind, gentle, you behave – it’s a part of you.
57:27 Q: Sir, I’ve got a question. If one observes, like what’s going on, really sees that, why doesn’t that make one dull, I mean, find out things?
57:38 K: That means you don’t… Sir, when you see something dangerous you act, don’t you? Now, do you see the danger of fear as clearly as you see a danger, physical danger?
58:10 If you don’t, why don’t you see fear is a tremendous danger?
58:21 Why don’t you?
58:31 Because you’ve got used to fear.
58:42 Perhaps you’ve got used to it. You say, ‘Well, I’ve lived with fear for the last ten years, what’s wrong with it?’ Q: I see that fear can be a form of destruction to my inquiry, but...
58:59 K: To your life, not to your inquiry.
59:02 Q: Right.
59:03 K: Do you see it as dangerous as you see some physical danger?
59:09 Q: Yes.
59:10 K: You don’t. If you saw it you’d break through it. Go on, Tunki.
59:13 Q: I was thinking about this interest. When you are not occupied there is an interest, but now the trouble is you have to work at a certain time, you are planning that you are going to take...
59:37 K: Of course, of course.
59:40 Q: And in that there is no interest.
59:44 K: Why not?
59:45 Q: I mean, anything which you are doing, because you know you are forced to study, you come to question the thing more, but it doesn’t activate the interest in the thing which you are studying.
59:59 It activates a different interest.
1:00:05 K: I see. You’re saying when you have to study mathematics for a period of 45 minutes...
1:00:14 Q: It is for, let’s say you have to take an exam.
1:00:19 K: I’m taking – doesn’t matter – mathematics, biology, anything you like – during that short period, I’m not interested.
1:00:29 But what are you going to do? Why aren’t interested in that short period? You are here to learn, learn all day long, not just one period.
1:00:38 Q: Possibly your mind stops wanting to gobble a certain amount, and not paying attention to what you are doing.
1:00:49 K: So you’re saying during that short period you swallow without learning. (Laughs) Is that it?
1:00:58 Q: Yes.
1:01:00 K: What are you going to do about it? Come on, apply.
1:01:07 Q: Is that learning, just taking in things?
1:01:11 K: What are you going to… Sir, look, I come into the class. For 45 minutes I have to listen to Laborde teach me mathematics.
1:01:27 Sorry! And I really am not, you know, I’ve just come from a class where biology is being taught, I come here, rushing in – you follow? – and I have to learn, listen to what he’s teaching.
1:01:44 My mind isn’t prepared for it. Right? I spent 45 minutes in biology and I’ve come here suddenly and I learn mathematics – right? – my mind isn’t quick enough to learn. So what shall I do? You follow what I’m saying, Tunki?
1:02:03 Q: I need a break between them.
1:02:07 K: Just listen. Ten minutes break I have. What shall I do? You people. You understand? I go to biology class, spend 45 minutes, a break of ten minutes, then mathematics.
1:02:30 My mind is – you follow?
1:02:32 Q: Don’t you then have to be where you are, just now, and not being where...
1:02:42 K: What shall I do? Apply – what shall I do? I have finished with biology. I have an interval of ten minutes and then I have to learn mathematics – you follow?
1:02:56 – and from mathematics to something else. It’s a constant break.
1:03:02 Q: You have to change, you have to move.
1:03:04 K: Am I capable of saying, ‘Well that’s biology, next mathematics,’ next music – you follow?
1:03:12 – whatever it is. Is my mind capable of moving?
1:03:15 Q: It doesn’t seem to be.
1:03:19 K: Why not? And if it’s not, how shall we make it move?
1:03:26 Q: Well, it seems wrong somehow.
1:03:29 K: Yes, I understand that. Biology, I’ve spent 45 minutes at biology, my mind is soaked in that. Right? I’ve a ten minutes interval and then I go to mathematics. I’m tired by the time I come to mathematics.
1:03:52 And then… and so on, so on. How shall I absorb biology, mathematics, music and so on, which is why I’m here, to learn about all these subjects – what shall I do?
1:04:13 Q: You have to... (inaudible) K: What shall I do? Tell me. Don’t preach to me – you understand? – don’t tell me theoretically – actually, factually, what shall I do?
1:04:32 Knowing day after day for the next six months, I have to do this.
1:04:40 Except Sunday and Wednesday and the afternoon – whatever it is – I have to do this every day for the next six months.
1:04:48 What shall I do? You’re in that position, aren’t you?
1:05:01 Q: Yes.
1:05:04 K: No? What shall we do?
1:05:08 Q: It seems to me like, shouldn’t we question interest as a motive? It seems like if I have interest...
1:05:18 K: But you’re not interested in mathematics, in biology – you want the easiest way out.
1:05:28 Except you’re interested in guitar playing. But life isn’t just guitar playing, there is the whole field.
1:05:39 Q: I understand that, but I’m saying interest as a motive.
1:05:49 I’m questioning that.
1:05:50 K: Just a minute – interest. Am I interested in biology? Are you interested in biology, in mathematics?
1:05:59 A little. So what will you do, sir? Come, help me. I am one of your students, I’m with you. I have to spend 45 minutes there, 45 minutes here, a gap, and keep, keep, do this all day. What shall I do? How am I to have interest alive each 45 minutes, so that I’m capable of learning wherever I am?
1:06:30 Q: It seems you have to find it for yourself.
1:06:34 K: Of course, sir. I’m telling you – help me.
1:06:37 Q: But I can’t do anything to help you.
1:06:40 K: You’re going to help me. I’m part of your community, you can’t just say, ‘Get out, do it for yourself’ – I’m living with all of you.
1:06:51 Q: Give your attention to the lesson you are doing then. The other lesson’s finished, don’t carry it on.
1:06:59 K: Help me – don’t tell me theoretically what I should do.
1:07:05 Q: Is the mind capable of continuously, seven to eight hours...
1:07:12 K: Therefore what shall I do? If my mind is not capable of learning eight hours or four hours or five hours during the day, what shall I do?
1:07:24 You mean to say I’m not capable of learning five hours a day?
1:07:31 Q: Intense...
1:07:32 K: Intense, learn – intense or gradually, you know, learn, begin.
1:07:40 For five hours a day? What’s wrong with me? So I must find out – listen, Tunki – how to apply my mind – biology, mathematics, music, science, whatever it is – how am I to apply my mind to each subject as it arises?
1:08:15 You follow? What am I to do?
1:08:20 Q: I feel if you use that break which you have…
1:08:34 K: You have to speak a little louder.
1:08:37 Q: If in that break between the classes you have a real break, if you rest your mind...
1:08:44 K: Go on, Brazil. Go on, Brazil. I understand. Are you doing that?
1:08:49 Q: No.
1:08:50 K: Why not?
1:08:51 Q: When I do it...
1:08:53 K: Wait! That’s just ploughing, just talking – you don’t do it.
1:09:04 Therefore you are saying to me: mathematics, you have a period of fifteen minutes – right?
1:09:16 – be quiet, sit still, look at the sky, do something so as to refresh your mind.
1:09:23 You understand? Then when you take up mathematics your mind is fresh to come upon it. But if you keep on moving, moving, moving, moving, chattering, nothing happens. You’ve heard this, haven’t you, before? I’ve told you this. Why haven’t you done it?
1:09:39 Q: But if you give your attention to the break, that is being quiet. Giving your attention to the break.
1:09:50 K: No, sir. You are not a student here. I’m asking the students. Why haven’t you done it? Tunki, why haven’t you done it?
1:09:56 Q: It’s again a question of – well, I just don’t have any…
1:10:02 K: No, Tunki, listen to my question, don’t go off to something else. I’ve come from mathematics and I’m now going to learn English, and I have fifteen minutes interval.
1:10:17 And my mind is still full of mathematics, and I chatter, do this, that, and guitar strum – you follow?
1:10:29 – do something or other, and go into English class. How can I absorb anything? So I suggested, during those fifteen minutes or ten minutes, go out for a walk, look at something else, look at the trees, the birds – right?
1:10:47 – sit still. But you haven’t done it. Why? Then you complain – listen Tunki, then you complain: ‘I’m not interested in mathematics, it’s too much.’ Q: But you say we if have a break we should rest and see, just…
1:11:10 K: …relax.
1:11:11 Q: Just relax. But we don’t seem to...
1:11:16 K: That means you haven’t relaxed.
1:11:18 Q: Exactly, but...
1:11:20 K: Therefore how to relax.
1:11:22 Q: Exactly.
1:11:24 K: I’m going to go into it, sir! Find out. See what is happening. During those 45 minutes your mind is occupied, isn’t it, your mind is moving, your brain is active, it’s under a strain, you’re being told something you don’t know, and you’re reluctant, not to know, you’re reluctant to learn.
1:11:53 So you are battling all that’s going on, while mathematics is being taught. It’s under strain, a pressure. Right? Then you have fifteen minutes break. Now how to relax the brain, which has been under pressure, reluctantly and also fearful, anxious – you follow? – all that.
1:12:23 Now how will you relax that brain during those fifteen minutes?
1:12:31 Come on. Come on, sirs.
1:12:35 Q: But we don’t seem to be able to, because...
1:12:44 K: Discuss it with me. Tell me what you do.
1:12:48 Q: We aren’t intense enough that we need a break.
1:12:49 K: What do you mean, intense enough? When the poor chap is teaching you mathematics you are not listening, you’re looking out of the window? Obviously you’re looking out of the window.
1:13:00 Q: Yes. No, I notice…
1:13:02 K: And then you say, ‘Mr Laborde is a bore, he doesn’t teach properly.’ Q: Well the fact that makes you look out of the window...
1:13:13 K: Who is making you look out of the window?
1:13:15 Q: No, why don’t I have...
1:13:16 K: You’re not looking out of the window now.
1:13:18 Q: Yes.
1:13:19 K: Why? None of you are looking out of the window.
1:13:27 Q: Because you have the intensity to talk to us.
1:13:36 K: Why? Because I’ve done these things. To me they are tremendously important.
1:13:49 So I want to find out how to listen to mathematics for 45 minutes, without any strain, and also when that mathematics is over, to be quiet, to relax, not to keep on – you follow?
1:14:08 – relax. And then when I pick up English, I’m all there.
1:14:18 So I have to find out – listen, Tunki, listen please – how to listen to mathematics – you follow? – to learn without strain, and during those fifteen minutes interval to be completely relaxed so that when I go to the English class I am all eager to find out about Milton or whatever the bird is.
1:14:50 Now, can you do this?
1:15:01 To listen to mathematics without strain.
1:15:12 You say, ‘Oh, horrible mathematics, I don’t like it.’ Come to it.
1:15:20 You may like it. Play with it. You see, sir, that means you are willing to learn. Learn. From the moment you wake up to the moment you go to sleep, learn. It isn’t a strain. To watch a fly on the windowpane isn’t a strain.
1:15:59 To see why you can’t sit still isn’t a strain.
1:16:09 Just to see it. Why you eat that way, why you are rude.
1:16:17 You follow, sir? Then when you come to English you’re fresh.
1:16:20 Q: How can the mind be quiet when you are filled up with your own desires and own emotions?
1:16:30 K: That’s one of our difficulties, sir.
1:16:38 How can you be quiet when you’re full of the movement of desire – is that it?
1:16:48 Do you want to go into it?
1:16:52 Q: Yes.
1:16:54 K: Now you pay attention. (Laughs) You know what desire is? Tell me what desire is.
1:17:07 Q: To want.
1:17:11 K: Yes. What do you mean by want?
1:17:14 Q: Wanting to be fulfilled?
1:17:16 K: What do you mean by want? Desire – what do you mean by desire?
1:17:22 Q: Needing, to be in distress about something.
1:17:38 To be in distress; you need something.
1:17:42 K: You need something. Come on, sir, you used that word desire – I want you to tell me what you mean by that word desire.
1:17:48 Q: Longing for something.
1:17:51 K: Longing for something. When you’re longing for something, how your mind can be quiet – is that it? Is that it? What are you longing for?
1:18:02 Q: A hundred things.
1:18:05 K: Come on with it! What are you longing for? To play the guitar? To dominate somebody? To kick somebody? To have some pleasure? Is that it, what you call desire?
1:18:34 Q: No, it’s just things in the mind.
1:18:43 My mind can’t keep quiet and I want to get up and walk around... (inaudible) K: Yes. So you say: my mind cannot keep quiet because I want to go out for a little walk. Then go out for a little walk.
1:18:51 Q: He said and have a cup of tea, sir.
1:18:55 K: And then have a cup of tea. (Laughter) Q: Yes, but what if it arises every time you try to be quiet?
1:19:03 K: No, don’t try to be quiet. You’re missing my point. Your mind cannot be quiet if you resist. If there is a desire for a cup of tea, go and have your cup of tea. Go out for a walk during the quarter of an hour interval. That is relaxation – you follow? If you want to hit somebody, which is also your desire, will you indulge in that?
1:19:51 So what will you do? You have a desire to hurt somebody, because previously that person has hurt you, said something rude, and you want to hurt him back.
1:20:09 So what will you do during those fifteen minutes?
1:20:17 (Laughs) What will you do? Unless you have understood, unless you fulfil that desire or brush that desire aside, that will be a strain, won’t it?
1:20:33 Therefore your mind can’t be quiet. Therefore what will you do?
1:20:43 You have insulted me, you have hurt me this morning, and the lunch bell went off too quickly and I rush down, but it remains in my mind, doesn’t it?
1:20:55 So I’m going to take it out of you a little later. After lunch I’m going to make an opportunity to kick you. So you have hurt me in the morning, I keep that in my mind, and later on I’m going to take it out of you.
1:21:19 Right? And in the interval of fifteen minutes that keeps on, that thought.
1:21:27 Until I fulfil that, my mind is occupied.
1:21:34 Right? You have understood? Now what shall I do?
1:21:47 Tell me, what shall I do? You don’t know?
1:21:52 Q: I take the trouble to go to investigate this whole feeling of hurt.
1:21:58 K: Oh my God (laughs) – that’s too late. I’m hurt. You understand, Tunki? You tell me I’m an ass, a fool, and I’m hurt by that, and I’d like to tell you you are equally silly.
1:22:16 But I have to rush to class, so I’ll take it out of you, call you silly, later.
1:22:27 Right? And that occupies my mind. And during those fifteen minutes that’s going on, because you are somewhere else, I can’t hit you back.
1:22:39 So I can’t relax. Right? So what shall I do? You know, this is a tremendous problem, it’s not just a little problem. This is our life. This is what we do all day long, when we grow up.
1:23:01 So what shall I do?
1:23:09 Knowing I must have those fifteen minutes completely relaxed.
1:23:16 Right? What shall I do?
1:23:27 What will you tell me to do?
1:23:29 Q: You can’t suppress it and you can’t...
1:23:36 (inaudible) K: Tell me what to do. Mantely, what am I to do?
1:23:41 Q: I don’t know – can you drop it? Can I drop it?
1:23:47 K: All your suggestions must be concrete, factual suggestions – not ‘can you, will you, must you, should you’ – that has no meaning.
1:23:55 Q: The thing is, sir, the mind is so deeply involved in...
1:23:59 K: Roger, I’m not interested in all that kind of stuff – tell me what to do? You people are so theoretical!
1:24:05 Q: Do it or don’t do it.
1:24:09 K: Don’t do it?
1:24:13 Q: Or do it.
1:24:16 K: Sir, you haven’t understood. What am I to do? I’ve been hurt by your calling me a fool.
1:24:26 Q: Just look at that – why.
1:24:30 K: When shall I ask that question?
1:24:39 You call me a fool – right? – what shall I do? What’s the next reaction? Go step by step, Roger. Go step by step, what shall I do?
1:24:50 Q: I observe myself, the reaction, what takes place.
1:24:52 K: Then what shall I do?
1:24:54 Q: If I see that then I want it to…
1:25:07 I don’t know, it’s...
1:25:08 Q: Sir, we are always left with… we always talk about… this happens and then we have to deal with it.
1:25:13 K: Look, please listen to me. Factually, don’t discuss with me theoretically. I call you a fool.
1:25:19 Q: I listen to that.
1:25:20 K: You listen to that. How do you listen to it?
1:25:23 Q: (Inaudible) K: Wait! That is important.
1:25:26 Q: Not with…
1:25:27 K: Listen to me first! How do you listen? When I call you a fool, how do you listen to that word?
1:25:44 Therein lies the clue. If you know how to listen – listen, Roger, don’t… – if you know how to listen to that word you will have solved it instantly, you won’t carry it over.
1:26:02 Q: Yes. The reaction which...
1:26:07 K: How do you listen to that word? You said your desire to hit back. How do you first – when I call you a fool in the morning, how do you listen to that word, to the voice that says you are a blasted fool?
1:26:28 (Dog barks) That dog agrees with me. (Laughter) How do you listen to that?
1:26:34 Q: I immediately take it as an insult.
1:26:41 K: No, I am asking you: find out how you listen.
1:26:46 Q: With an image about the word.
1:26:58 K. Yes. Is that what you’re doing? I say you’re not as clever as you think you are, you’re an ass. I’m angry with you. How do you listen to that anger, to that word, and the meaning of that word fool, how do you listen to all that?
1:27:23 Q: With attention.
1:27:25 K: Wait! Not with attention – you don’t. You don’t listen at all.
1:27:32 Q: Then there’s resistance.
1:27:34 K: (Laughs) That’s what I’m pointing out to you. You don’t listen, you just react, don’t you?
1:27:48 So, if you listen to that word, to the tone, listen, then you find out what your reactions are.
1:28:07 And you listen entirely differently, don’t you?
1:28:14 Your mind is then very alert to listen. You have finished it. The moment you have listened very attentively to that second when the tone, word, the feeling, when you have listened to it very sharply, you don’t carry it over.
1:28:38 Will you do this?
1:28:45 Will you do it tomorrow, today, so that your mind is free to learn mathematics, an interval in which you are completely relaxed, whether go out for a walk or whatever it is, relax, no resistance, and then come to English with freshness?
1:29:14 What about it, Brazil, can you do this? Don’t say, ‘I don’t know how to relax.’ Don’t say, ‘I don’t know what it means to learn.’ We’ll talk about it more, but whatever little, apply.
1:29:39 You understand?
1:29:52 You see, most of us are hypocrites – not only the… – we’re all a little bit of hypocrites.
1:30:12 And I want to know, I want to learn whether I’m a hypocrite or not. I’m not going to say I am or I’m not. I know I’m more or less hypocritical, so I want to learn.
1:30:26 So I find out a tremendous lot. I am a hypocrite when I copy somebody, when I imitate somebody, when I follow somebody.
1:30:47 I’m not a hypocrite when I only deal with facts about myself.
1:30:55 You follow? Facts, not theories, conclusions, ideas. When I say I am a liar, I am a liar. When I am angry, I am angry.
1:31:11 I know I’m angry, I don’t try to rationalise it, excuse it – it is so.
1:31:18 When I say, ‘Well, I am lazy, my mind is dull’ – you follow?
1:31:31 – I’m learning. So the mind becomes extraordinarily attentive, curious, wanting… You follow? What time is it, sir?
1:31:55 Q: One.
1:32:02 K: The other day we were talking about mediocrity.
1:32:12 Have you found out if you are mediocre?
1:32:24 (Laughs) You know what mediocre means? We went into it. Have you found out? What are you going to do about it when you’ve found out you are mediocre?
1:32:44 Are you going to apply it?
1:32:53 Are you applying it? We said one of the symptoms of mediocrity is imitation.
1:33:10 Right? I want to find out in what way I’m imitating, psychologically as well as physically – long hair, short hair, imitating because I believe in Argentine being the greatest country – or God knows what.
1:33:36 You follow? I imitate, conform. And I conform because I’m frightened. I’m mediocre because I’m thinking about myself from morning till night.
1:33:59 So can I watch all this and break through it?
1:34:11 You follow what I mean? Learn where imitation is natural and where it is supremely destructive.
1:34:31 Natural to put on a trouser in Europe and in America and put on a different thing in India.
1:34:42 I’ve never put on trousers in India. You follow? Inquire, learn. And also we talked about sitting absolutely quiet.
1:35:05 Have you done it? Have you? What happened? Go on, tell me.
1:35:16 Q: It’s very difficult.
1:35:20 K: It’s very difficult – why?
1:35:25 Q: (Inaudible) K: You understand what I said? Sitting absolutely quiet, your body without any twitching, without any movement of the body, your eyes completely still.
1:35:44 And you say it’s difficult – why?
1:35:58 Go on, Brazil.
1:36:07 Q: I don’t mean so much physically.
1:36:12 K: Wait. I talked first physically. Later on we’ll... (inaudible) Q: And relaxing.
1:36:22 K: Of course, otherwise you can’t. That’s part of yoga. And also yoga means skill in action.
1:36:46 (Laughs) I won’t go into it.
1:36:58 Q: What is this, after you do it, the scenery that you see is quieter than before. After you open it, after five or ten minutes, the scenery that you see is becoming quieter than before.
1:37:06 K: Yes, that’s all right, but I’m asking... No, not the scenery, I’m not talking of that. Can you keep your body quiet for five minutes.
1:37:17 Q: Yes.
1:37:23 K: Good. That means you’re not controlling the body.
1:37:36 You don’t say, ‘Well I must keep quiet,’ and forcing the body to be quiet.
1:37:44 That’s not quiet.
1:37:50 Q: No, but there must be an intention.
1:37:53 K: You see, you have started with a conclusion. You people are already dead old people.
1:37:59 Q: No, no, wait, wait. I don’t think so because there is a... (inaudible) K: Look, I want to find out whether I can keep my body quiet.
1:38:11 Right? I want to learn. I don’t start with a conclusion the body must be quiet, I just want to learn if I can keep the body quiet.
1:38:27 That means not a single muscle moves.
1:38:34 I don’t want to make a record – you understand? (Laughs) I just want to see how long… I just want to learn about it.
1:38:52 If I can do that then I move to something else. I want to find out if the mind can be quiet, the mind being thought, can be absolutely quiet.
1:39:19 Not force it, not say, ‘I must make it quiet.’ Q: No, but there is a difference between intention and force.
1:39:39 K: Of course there is, Tunki. Compulsion, determination, the action of will, is strain, is a wastage of energy, but when the body, the mind is completely quiet there is a totally different kind of energy.
1:40:01 We’ll go into that. We’d better go to lunch – don’t you?