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BR72DSS2.1 - Why Brockwood exists
Brockwood Park, UK - 26 September 1972
Discussion with Staff and Students 2.1



0:01 This is J. Krishnamurti’s first discussion with teachers and students at Brockwood Park, 1972.
0:13 Krishnamurti: May I begin? We’ll discuss… we’ll ask questions and discuss after I’ve talked.
0:26 I don’t know if you realise what Brockwood… why Brockwood exists at all.
0:39 To understand why it exists you have to look at the world as it is – not what you think of the world as it is, but actually look what is going on in the world – just to observe, without your condemning it or approving of it or having an opinion about it.
1:06 Just to look. First of all, there are various religious divisions - right?
1:15 – Christians, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhist, and subdivisions of all these organised religions – and they are fighting each other.
1:32 In the past, in the name of God or whatever it was, they killed each other by the thousands - except perhaps Buddhism and Hinduism.
1:47 But Muslims and the Christians have slaughtered by the thousands other human beings.
1:56 Then you see the division of nationalities – the Germans, the Russians, the Hindus, the Muslims, the Chinese, the Americans - you follow? – the divisions that are going on in the world, politically divided, geographically divided and in conflict.
2:19 And there has been, formerly before the Second World War, the League of Nations, which collapsed.
2:29 Now they have United Nations, which is really not united at all but utterly immoral in their existence even, because they admit those who are free, those who are tyrannical, those who are tyrants, dictators, everything is it.
2:49 And there are racial differences – the blacks, the whites – what are they? – the yellows, the browns and so on, the Asiatics and the non-Asiatics.
3:07 Again a division, conflict. Then economically there is also conflict – Japan on one side, tremendously productive, tremendously active, well-organised, under paternal economic – no, I wouldn’t like to use the word ‘slavery’ but - control.
3:41 And they are producing marvellous things. Then there is economic division, then there is the class division.
3:57 In India there is the Brahmin – you know what Brahmins are? – and the non-Brahmins.
4:08 And the Brahmins have exploited the non-Brahmins because the Brahmins had all the brains, cultivated the brain, they were the priests, they were the leaders, politically, religiously and so on, morally.
4:26 And there is this tremendous division between classes.
4:34 And in this country it exists much more. The snobbery here is extraordinary. So there is this division right through the world – politically, economically, socially, linguistically - you follow?
4:54 – divide, divide, divide. And where there is division there must be conflict. You know, like Bangladesh and West Pakistan, there have been recent wars.
5:10 There is war between the Arabs and the Israelites, war between America and Vietnam, political divisions, racial divisions, ideological differences.
5:29 Right? You are following all this? These are facts, not my opinion. Then there is the Communist Block with their tyranny, and the intellectual people are trying to break through - and so on and on and on.
6:04 We wanted a place here at Brockwood where all this doesn’t exist at all.
6:12 You understand? You have got it? What the world is, this place must not be. At least that’s what our intention was when we started. And I think it still is. That no class differences, no racial differences, no religious differences, no economic differences – you may be rich out there but here we’re all equal economically, socially, morally, without any adherence to any nation.
7:01 Right? And the world as it is in tremendous conflict, competitive, economically.
7:19 You know what is happening between Japan and America, and Japan and China, Japan and… how Japan is infiltrating into the West - watches, cars, everything.
7:41 And here we want to create quite a different kind of atmosphere, atmosphere in which conflict doesn’t exist at all between you, me, the staff and you.
8:03 Right? Because conflict means not only lack of intelligence, but it is a factor of distortion.
8:17 Am I using good words? When you and I fight, quarrel about this or that, we never come to any understanding.
8:30 We only fight when there is no intelligence. When you and I have a little intelligence, and exercise that little intelligence, conflict is unnecessary.
8:43 Right? It’s only we quarrel, we have differences of attitudes and actions when we have different opinions.
8:57 Right? When I have an opinion I think I should do this, and you think you should do that.
9:05 Right? Are you following all this? So opinions are unnecessary. We’re only dealing with facts. Right? Do you understand this? Why should I have an opinion about the microphone? It’s absurd to have an opinion about it. Or about an elephant. But the world is governed by opinions, ideas and conclusions, which they call ideologies.
9:44 Right? These ideologies divide people. They don’t bring people together, they don’t help people to co-operate.
10:03 I stick to my belief, my opinion, my God, my country and you stick to yours, and then we battle.
10:13 Which seems to me so utterly insane. Sanity is when you and I exercise our intelligence without opinion.
10:28 That is, to look at facts only, look at ‘what is’ and move from there together.
10:39 Right? Together, not you ahead of me and I behind. Together we see the fact, cooperate with the fact, and together go forward.
10:54 Is that clear? Am I making myself clear? So that at any time there is no conflict between you and me or between each other.
11:11 This is what Brockwood, at least for me, exists for. We want - I feel we want to create a totally different kind of human being here, who is neither English, French, German, Russian, who doesn’t get caught in any belief, in any dogma, who only moves with ‘what is’ and with facts.
11:52 And therefore to bring about a human being totally harmonious in himself.
12:01 Right? Are you getting it? Harmonious in the sense harmony between his mind, his heart and his body, the organism, all together function harmoniously.
12:30 Right?
12:47 That is, to have a very good mind, capable of thinking very clearly.
13:00 You cannot think clearly if you say, ‘I am right you are wrong,’ this is my opinion, that is your opinion – we cannot think together clearly.
13:13 Which means we together think very, very clearly, have a good, sharp, clear brain.
13:25 Are we understanding each other?
13:34 And - I can’t go into all the implications of it, which we will as long as I’m here – and also to have affection, love, kindliness, courtesy, considerateness, which is what is generally called the heart.
14:04 You understand? Are we following each other?
14:12 And to have a good physical body, otherwise the mind, the heart and the body are not in harmony.
14:25 To have a very good body, not a sloppy body, because the more the organism functions well, subtly, it naturally affects the brain.
14:48 Right? So, we want – at least this is what I feel I’m responsible for, in a place like this, and I help to bring this about here, as I did help to bring about two schools in India, one in the north and one in the south – there used to be one in California but unfortunately that has gone out of our hands.
15:23 So, how do you have a very good brain, a very good mind, objective, efficient, balanced, sane mind, which means you have to study, cultivate the brain.
16:13 That means the brain must be extraordinarily awake, observe, capacity to act, act harmoniously with what you feel, with what you love.
16:42 You follow? So we’ll begin with the necessity of having great harmony between the mind, the heart and the body, the mind being intelligence.
17:08 We’ll go into what intelligence is later, the implications of that word.
17:18 And the heart, which is consideration, politeness, affection, friendship, companionship - you follow?
17:30 And a body that’s very subtle, supple.
17:40 Right? Is this clear for the moment?
17:49 Now, we live in a community. Right? This is a community, rather isolated, not too near a town, fortunately, in a place that is extraordinary beautiful, lovely trees, meadows, and the English sky when you get it blue.
18:15 Later on, as you will see, it’ll get very cold, very dark and all the rest of it.
18:26 We live in a community, about a hundred of us, where each one has a function.
18:47 Mr Porter has a function with regard to the vegetable garden, all that side.
18:54 That’s his function. The staff have their function. Right? Not status, function. You know the difference between status and function?
19:15 Is this all getting rather tiresome? I think you should understand all this and then we can proceed to discuss in more detail later.
19:31 I have a function. My function has been since I was 15, to – what shall I say? – to talk, to write, to explore - all kinds of things.
19:56 And I’ve done it. That’s my function. But that function brings a certain sense of power, a certain sense of authority.
20:12 You understand? Not in me but in others. A certain sense of reverence, a certain sense of acceptance.
20:31 Out of all that I can build a status for myself. You are following? I can say, ‘Well I’m a very great man, you must all treat me as a great man.’ Status, that is power, position, which becomes much more important than function.
20:53 If I function without status then sentimentality, opinion doesn’t enter into it.
21:06 But when out of my function, out of functioning, a status is created, then mischief begins.
21:13 Have you understood? We must be clear on this. Right? Have you understood what I’ve said? Mrs Simmons has a function, like Mr Porter has a function. The staff, each one, has a function. They are responsible to the function, not to the status.
21:42 Right? You see what I’m explaining, or am I just talking to a wall?
21:56 I have certain responsibility in my functioning.
22:08 I am not responsible for the status which you have put me in.
22:15 You follow? I won’t accept any status for myself, because that’s what brings about mischief in the world.
22:30 As long as we live and act in status then there is division.
22:38 I don’t know if you see this.
22:47 If I give to my function a certain status then what matters is the status and not the function.
23:04 Then I’m very concerned about my position in a community, whether it’s small or large.
23:14 But if I am a cook and my function is to cook but you look at me as a cook because you have certain status in your mind with regard to the cook – you are following this? – so you treat me as cook, not as a functionary.
23:44 Therefore you have disrespect for me, because you in your mind, status is important.
23:53 The Prime Minister is much more important than the cook. Right? Whereas function is important at all levels.
24:08 I wonder if you are getting all this.
24:16 All right? Therefore in a community like this, with a hundred people, about a hundred people - I don’t know the exact number, sorry but I don’t – isolated, somewhat, we are responsible for the whole thing, as in the functioning and the running of the whole place.
25:00 We are responsible. You understand?
25:08 Responsibility – you know what that word means?
25:17 The word means to respond rightly. To respond. Sorry – ‘to respond’.
25:41 May I be a little bit more complex, a little difficult? You don’t mind? You can ask me afterwards. I feel responsible for this place.
26:00 Not only for the garden, for the trees - for everybody who is here.
26:08 Responsible - you follow? That is, respond to each one adequately.
26:20 You’ve understood? If I don’t respond adequately to you then there is conflict between you and me.
26:31 If I respond with all my being to you, that is, my being being harmonious, without conflict in me – you follow?
26:45 – intelligently, respond totally – then there is no conflict between you and me.
26:54 But if I respond inadequately, which is, if I say, ‘Well you are an American and I don’t like Americans,’ ‘I like you because you’ve got a good accent, English accent,’ ‘I like you because you’re a girl, not a boy’ – you follow? – that is if I have opinions, judgements, evaluations in me, I cannot respond harmoniously to you.
27:29 You get it? Responsibility means that. I wonder if you get all this.
27:40 I feel responsible in that way for this place, and for you as students as well as the older people, the staff.
27:49 When I go to India, I’ll do in November, I’m going to these two schools, as well as go to different parts of India – I’m going to talk to all the students, the staff, everybody there.
28:06 When I get there I feel terribly responsible for everybody. You understand? And this is not just words with me, it isn’t just a lip-service.
28:22 I feel responsible. And when I get up on a platform, talk to five thousand or two thousand or eight thousand, as it happens, I feel responsible, what I say, what I feel.
28:38 You know, to me it is tremendously sacred. To me. Now, being responsible for a community like this, I feel, knowing what the world is, the horror of it all that’s going on, the exploitation, the butchery, the wickedness, the murder, the violence, the dishonesty that’s going on in the world - I feel, and that’s why Brockwood exists, that those who come here and stay here, study academically, must leave this place as a totally different human being.
29:54 Totally different.
30:04 Who don’t just step into the rotten stuff and become corrupt like the rest of them, but human beings who are highly intelligent, highly moral, physically, you know, like steel that bends, healthy.
30:32 You understand all this? At least that’s what I feel – you should leave here completely psychologically changed human beings.
30:45 And for that I feel responsible. You understand? And therefore – we have discussed this with the staff – they also feel responsible that you as students, young, coming here already conditioned - you understand? – already conditioned, heavily burdened with your opinions and judgements, evaluations, you think this, you think that – you come here with all the world which has made you, you come here.
31:43 And either you throw off all that or you keep it very subtly inside, and when you go out it blossoms.
31:58 You follow all this? So living together means not only responsibility but unconditioning ourselves so that we’re no longer frightened, no longer belonging to any group, any class, any religion, but morally strong, clear, all the rest of it.
32:41 That is our responsibility. Right? Not only that you look after… help in the garden, when you pick up a leaf - you follow? – your responsibility for the place, your responsibility to see that you’re free human beings when you leave here, not frightened, not accepting all the rot that’s going on in the world.
33:13 (Pause) So, living in a community means responsibility.
33:53 It also means relationship, to be related to each other.
34:11 That responsibility… relationship can be mechanical or really alive.
34:19 You follow? You understand what I’m talking? Most of our relationships are mechanical. Have you noticed that?
34:40 I get to know you and you get to know me, and we treat each other mechanically – you know, ‘Yes, I know you and you know me,’ I’ve got certain mannerisms, a certain way of speaking, certain attitudes, opinions, judgements and so have you.
35:02 We soon find out each other’s opinions, each other’s attitudes, each other’s temperament, characteristics, and go along.
35:12 That soon becomes mechanical. Right? And that’s how the world lives. Here, I feel, relationship means something entirely different.
35:33 Relationship is something that’s living, moving, never static, never, ‘Yes, I know you,’ and finished, but moving together, learning together, in our relationship.
35:53 I don’t know you, you don’t really know me. You have an image about me, I have an image about you, but you really don’t know me, I don’t know you.
36:06 So to learn about each other, and therefore move together, all the time moving in learning, not coming to a conclusion about you or about me.
36:18 I don’t know if you follow all this. You follow all this? It’s rather difficult, isn’t it? So there is responsibility, relationship and learning.
36:40 That’s how we are together here; we want to learn.
36:47 There is academic learning, learning mathematics, geography, history, biology and God knows what else, and also there is another kind of learning, learning about oneself.
37:08 I don’t know if you have not noticed something very interesting: man has always been very selfish and self-centred.
37:30 Right? You know what that means, don’t you? Selfish and self-centred. And societies, religions throughout the world have said that doesn’t help man in his relationship with others.
37:48 Therefore they tried to put the idea of God more important than the self.
38:00 You understand? You understand? God, Jesus, Buddha, X, Y, Z, more important than you, old boy, because you are so selfish, so self-centred, you create such havoc in the world, because you’re so miserly, you want everything for yourself, and knowing that, the intellectuals, the so-called…
38:29 say love God, so transfer your selfishness to God.
38:36 You have understood? But you still remain selfish in the name of God. You have understood that? And the communists come along, say again selfishness is very bad, don’t be concerned about yourself, be concerned about the State.
39:01 You understand? Be concerned about others, about the nation. So, see what’s happened, instead of God they’ve put the nation, the State more important.
39:19 So you’re still selfish in the name of the State or in the name of the country, you practise shooting – you follow? – in the name of the State, in the name of the nation.
39:36 I don’t know if you have watched all this. Haven’t you? No, probably you haven’t. You don’t have to read books about it, you can watch it.
39:53 So, living in a community in which responsibility and relationship matter greatly, and also learning, selfishness becomes a barrier, not only to learning but to relationship and responsibility.
40:23 I wonder if you follow all this.
40:32 If I am selfish – you know what selfishness means, don’t you, or am I telling you something which you don’t know?
40:50 Selfishness means I want this before you do, it is mine, my opinion, my judgement, I am much more important than you, what I think is important, not what you think.
41:05 You know, the feeling of the self, the ‘me’, is much more important than anybody else – the ‘me’, the power, the position, the prestige.
41:23 And when that exists in a community there must always be conflict.
41:32 I don’t know if you realise this.
41:39 If I am thinking about myself all the time - I’m the most important person - each one of us - community, relationship, comes to an end, doesn’t it?
41:56 I’m just stating facts, not my opinion. So when you realise all this, when you are aware of all this, that living together, learning together implies… living together, learning together is made impossible when there is no responsibility, when there is no relationship; and this relationship cannot exist if there is selfishness.
42:33 Knowing all this, the clever people say: God. You follow? Worship God and forget yourself. And I am the priest who is the interpreter of the God, to you. I don’t know if you follow all this. So that’s what the world has been doing, that’s what the world does all the time.
43:03 They transfer their selfishness to something, what they think greater, but ‘the greater’ is still their selfishness.
43:17 So seeing all this in the world, here, to bring about a totally different kind of human being, all this must undergo tremendous revolution.
43:36 And that is our function, in relationship with you. Have you got it? Am I explaining myself? (Pause) Now let’s start discussing.
44:00 (Pause) You know, I’m going to be here till the 15th October, then I go to Italy, Rome, and then go on to India for three months, come back in February for a few days then go on to California, and so on.
44:34 Now, till the 15th, as many meetings together as possible as long as I’m here.
44:41 We’ll arrange that. Now, what shall we talk over together?
44:54 (Pause) May I bring up something so that we can talk over together about it?
45:40 What is your relationship as a student with the older people?
45:53 What’s your relationship with the staff?
46:00 What’s your relationship with Mrs Simmons, or with Mr Porter or with Mr Carnes or somebody – what’s your relationship?
46:14 Q: I suppose a certain amount of authority must go with function, mustn’t it?
46:35 K: We’ll come into that. I want first, if you don’t mind, find out my relationship to you, my relationship to you and your relationship to me.
46:53 Suppose I’m a teacher here, one of the staff members - what’s your relationship to me, and what’s my relationship to you?
47:12 You know what it means to be serious? We are serious, I am serious now. I can go outside and play and laugh and all the rest of it, but I am serious. I want to find out very deeply, seriously, what my relationship is to you and your relationship to me.
47:30 I’m an older man, and you’re quite young.
47:39 I’ve seen a great deal.
47:48 I haven’t read all the books; I don’t read very much. I have seen a great deal, lived, thought, went into things very much.
48:03 And if I’m a member of the staff I want to find out for myself what is my relationship to you.
48:13 Is it divisive? You know ‘divisive’, what that word means? Divided. I am the older, the learned, the professor, the teacher, and you poor chaps are down below and have to be taught.
48:40 You understand? You are following all this?
48:50 And what is your relationship to me, if I’m one of the staff members?
48:57 You come here with your ideas of what freedom is, with your ideas of what abomination authority is, with your ideas of ‘you’re as good as me’ -you know? – you’re in revolt, if you are, so you come – please just listen – you come with your ideas, with your conclusions, with a sense of revolt, with a sense of not accepting authority.
49:49 Right? You come with your condition. And I may have or may not have my conditioning, and I have to find out how to meet each other.
50:06 Right? Is there any meeting point?
50:16 If you come with your conclusions, definite, ‘there must be freedom’, not knowing what is all means completely, but you say, ‘Well, I don’t want the freedom, I don’t want to be bossed by my family, and I don’t want to be bossed by anybody,’ that’s your conclusion.
50:40 And I come along and say, ‘Look, I’ve understood a great deal about freedom.’ How can I meet you?
50:49 If I say something, you say that’s authoritarian, because you have an image of authority, a conclusion about authority.
51:02 Whereas I say, ‘Please, I’m just… I’ve no conclusion about authority, to me authority’s terrible, but living together demands certain order,’ and I happen to be older and I say please, to establish order I must have certain authority.
51:28 Right? You understand all this or not?
51:37 So we have to understand together what authority means.
51:44 Right? Right? Learn together, not you say this is authority or this is not authority – learn together what is implied in the word ‘authority’ and ‘freedom’.
52:05 In learning together we have relationship. You follow? You understand what I am saying? Like learning is walking together, on the same road, in the same direction, at the same speed.
52:28 So when we learn together there is no friction. I don’t know if you see this. Right? You and I are going to learn together what authority means - where it is necessary, where it is not necessary, where it is dangerous, where it is criminal – you follow? – we’re going to learn about it.
52:49 But if you say, ‘You’re older therefore you’re authoritarian,’ I mean, it becomes silly.
53:00 Right? And also what does freedom mean? To do what you like? Nobody can do what they like. It’s impossible, unless you went off to the mountains, living in a cave and say, ‘Well, I’m free at last’ – then you’d soon die.
53:31 So we have to understand the very complex question of freedom.
53:38 So living in a community, see what it means.
53:47 A community that is trying to be… – not ‘trying’ – that must be entirely different from the world, each of us is learning.
54:05 And we’re going to learn together what is implied in authority, in freedom, in order, and all the other things.
54:14 (Pause) So, what is your relationship with the staff or with me - who is a member of the staff, if I am here as a teacher?
54:34 Do you treat me as an older man and therefore: ‘Oh, he’s bound by authority,’ you know, all the rest of it, or do you treat me as I shall treat you if I am a teacher, which is to say, ‘Look we both are going to learn’?
54:59 Don’t say, if there is a meeting of students and if there is meeting of the staff, don’t say they’re divisive.
55:12 We’re going to learn. I don’t know if you follow all this. Are you? Do you follow this? No, discuss with me, please. Come on Tunki, you’re the oldest here. Or rather, you’ve been the longest here.
55:42 I say, look…
55:43 Q: (Inaudible) K: I understand. I’ll explain. (Laughs) The other day we had a staff meeting, before you all came here, and I said to them, as they said to me: what’s our responsibility?
56:05 What does this place stand for? Why does Brockwood exist? We went into that a little bit.
56:17 And they have their function, haven’t they? The staff has its function. No? Are you following all this? I’m a parent. I want to know about my children who are here. I don’t want to interfere with them, I want to know how they are going on, if they’re healthy, what they’re doing, what they’re thinking, because I don’t see them.
56:48 I love them – at least I hope I do; to me love is something else, we’ll go into that.
56:56 Love, it means freedom, love means responsibility, love means care, attention.
57:08 My love to my child means that I want him to be the most… you know, a living human being without fear, without tortured mind and body.
57:29 And I want to know.
57:36 I have a responsibility to my children.
57:44 I have a responsibility how they are, physically, morally, mentally – you follow?
57:51 – I love them, not just treat them like monkeys.
57:59 I don’t care what they become, I love them, but I want them to be the most extraordinary human beings.
58:11 Not force them. I want them to be happy, extraordinarily intelligent, marvellous body. You follow, sir?
58:30 And I say to Mrs Simmons, ‘I’m sending you my son who is in revolt against me’ – you follow? – ‘who thinks I’m gaga, who thinks I’m rather stupid, who thinks that he knows or she knows much better than I do.
58:50 I don’t care what they think, probably I’m all these things, but I like them, I love them, it’s my responsibility.’ And I write to Mrs Simmons and say, ‘Please tell me.’ Is that divisive?
59:13 Divisive in the sense, does my writing to her and she writing to me, does it create a division between you and her?
59:30 Q: Not necessarily.
59:34 K: Not necessarily. But I’m asking you, do you consider it divisive?
59:53 I want to meet, as a teacher, as staff here, I want to meet the other staff and say, ‘Look, I don’t know how to deal with Mr Schmidt.
1:00:05 I’m really quite puzzled, he’s much too intelligent for me, or much too stupid for me – I don’t know how to deal with the chap.’ I want to talk it over because I don’t know.
1:00:20 I feel responsible for you. You follow? And I care. So I don’t know how to deal with you, so I want to consult him, her, the staff, to say, ‘Look, what am I to do?’ Is that divisive?
1:00:36 Come on, sirs, discuss with me. Come on, darling, come on. Sorry, I mustn’t call you darling, must I? (Laughter) I’ll call you… Go on, go on - I don’t care.
1:00:50 Q: If you were, say, much dumber than somebody else or something and you feel there’s division there, but there wouldn’t be if this person could somehow give you some of what he’s got.
1:01:05 Or if you’re much smarter than the other person.
1:01:13 K: Yes, but how am I, who don’t understand you, don’t know how to deal with you - because I’m still learning - you follow?
1:01:22 – I don’t say I know all about the world, all about human beings, I’m the greatest, etc. I say I don’t know how to deal with you, so I must… I’d like to talk over with the others. Is that wrong?
1:01:37 Q: How would they help?
1:01:41 Q: It seem important.
1:01:45 Q: I mean, if that’s how it can work, that’s...
1:01:47 K: Wait, sir. Step by step, I’m going to lead you to your point. Is that wrong?
1:01:58 I want to talk it over, I don’t want to say, ‘I’m right, this should be done,’ I want your help, I want the help of the older people in dealing with you.
1:02:13 Right? And as Mrs Simmons has responsibility to run this place – you follow?
1:02:25 – not only this place, the neighbourhood. They are all watching you, don’t be fooled. All the neighbourhood. You understand, sir? Bramdean and all the old… the farmers, they say, ‘What are these people doing?
1:02:46 Are they taking drugs, go to the pub, a wild life, they are all so many nationalities, black, white, purple, pink, and all the rest of it, they are all here, what are they…
1:03:00 And they seem to be very nice.’ They are keeping an eye - you follow? The police are keeping an eye. I don’t know if you realise all this.
1:03:13 So she has responsibility, as I have a responsibility to her.
1:03:20 You follow? I want to know what’s happening because people have given lots of money to run this place, to buy this place, to hold this place.
1:03:34 Would you call that divisive, dividing?
1:03:44 Therefore I say to… Mrs Simmons says, ‘Look, I must pay the bills, I must run this place, choose what to…’ – you know, all the rest of it.
1:03:58 Now, that’s a function, isn’t it? Right? Now, if she takes status from it – you understand? - that is, she says, ‘I am the big boss here, everybody must consult me’ - you know, status.
1:04:20 So where there is status then mischief begins. It is that that creates division – you understand, sir? - not function. No, you as students meet together.
1:04:40 Right? It has also its danger - don’t fool yourself.
1:04:48 You students meet – is that divisive? If you meet separately from the staff and the staff meet separately from you as a student, is that divisive?
1:05:05 Divisive exists only when in your mind responsibility becomes irresponsibility.
1:05:16 You understand? (Pause) Say – we’ve been through this before, that’s why I can pick it up again – say for instance you go to bed at a certain time.
1:05:39 My lord, I’ve been through this before. You all agree to go to bed at nine-thirty, ten-thirty, whatever it is.
1:05:55 Some of you are quite young, some of you are 20, and we agree that we go to bed at a certain time, turn the lights out at a certain time.
1:06:07 And being young, fortunately – you’re still young, aren’t you, thank God – you forget, somebody has to remind you.
1:06:26 If one reminds you, the one who reminds you, does it become authority, you fight?
1:06:38 Somebody says to you, ‘For God’s sake, though you have agreed to go to bed you don’t go to bed, please go to bed.’ Or somebody says, ‘Look, eat properly at the table, hold the knife rightly.
1:06:58 There’s a right way of doing it and a wrong way of doing it.’ You say, ‘Who are you to tell me which is the right way?’ I’ll show you the right way, why I consider it the right way, and so on.
1:07:14 You follow? I say to you, please walk beautifully, not sloppily. Because when you walk rightly it indicates that you are… your body is healthy, you’re harmonious, you’re looking at the trees, the skies, the beauty of the land – you follow? - you’re enjoying yourself.
1:07:37 But when you’re sloppy like this, you don’t, you’re just a…
1:07:44 Right? So, where is authority in a community?
1:07:54 And where in a community division takes place. You have got it? Right? Am I putting this all right in front of you? I feel staff meeting is necessary.
1:08:20 When I go to India, I’m going to talk to the staff. I discuss with them what is teaching – you follow, sir? - whether they are merely teaching geography mechanically, or in the very act of teaching they are cultivating not only their brain – you follow? – but your brain also, whether in teaching, whether they are unconditioning themselves and the student.
1:08:52 You are following all this? I’m going to discuss with them.
1:09:01 And if the student says, ‘Sir, you’re divisive, you’re dividing the staff against the…’ I say, ‘No, we’re not talking anything against you, behind your back, we’re discussing what is teaching.’ And therefore I feel the students should have their own meeting, knowing the dangers of it.
1:09:23 You understand? The staff should have their own meeting, knowing the dangers of it, not creating a division.
1:09:31 And the whole school should meet together. You follow, sir? The three should function harmoniously, not divided. I don’t know if you’re meeting all this. You understand? Then it’s a living thing. You understand sir?
1:09:57 Look, I’ve gone into a great deal the question of meditation - which you know nothing, I’ll go into it, just, I’m telling you – tremendously I’ve gone into it.
1:10:11 It’s a great beauty. It’s an extraordinary thing if you know what to do with it.
1:10:20 And you know nothing about it. If I tell you or help you to learn about it, I help you to learn about it to meditate.
1:10:31 Not my way of meditation – meditation. You understand? And therefore in that feeling of learning there is no division as the man who knows and the man who doesn’t know.
1:10:44 You understand what I am talking? It is learning together. So, there is the staff meeting - knowing the danger of that - there is the students meeting - knowing the dangers of it – more dangerous there than here – you understand? - and meeting all together, the whole school meeting together, all of us, the hundred of us, and talking things over.
1:11:14 You know what… It creates a marvellous thing. You understand, sir? Do you understand this? Because we are only functioning in a community where we are concerned with each other and the whole of the human being, which is you and me.
1:11:46 And therefore authority has its place.
1:11:53 I mean, after all, when Mr Laborde teaches you mathematics, he knows more than you, and you say, ‘Well that’s authoritarian,’ it’s silly.
1:12:13 Of course he knows more than you do. But when Mr Laborde assumes a status – you follow? - then the mischief begins.
1:12:29 Then relationship ceases and we are at each other’s throat.
1:12:36 So we are a community of people living together, young and old, in a beautiful place, somewhat isolated, and we have a responsibility for each other, and for the whole place.
1:13:00 It isn’t Mrs Simmons’ job to just say, ‘Leave us to look after one side and you’ll do the other side.’ You follow?
1:13:11 It’s our responsibility together to create this place.
1:13:22 I’ve lived in California, during the war, at Ojai.
1:13:33 I milked cows, looked after chickens, the filth of chickens, the garden, cooking, washing floors – you follow? - because I feel that way.
1:13:49 I didn’t say, ‘I’m a great man, everybody must wait on me.’ You follow all this?
1:13:58 And in the same way, let’s live together happily. You understand, sir? Right. What time is it? Oh yes, quarter to one. I can see it up there.
1:14:17 Q: I wonder if I can say something, which is kind of something we were talking about last night when we had a student meeting.
1:14:31 One thing that seems to be a problem, you know, which is contributing to the division, you know. Okay, if we say there is some, which is, a student comes to the school and another student or the staff sees, you know, that that student has a problem...
1:14:51 K: I’m afraid I don’t… Speak louder, it’s not very clear.
1:14:54 Q: Okay. A student comes to the school and other students or the staff – you know, say that this happens, which it does – another student or staff sees that this student has some problem, you know, which just doesn’t quite fit in as, you know, they want it to fit in, want that student to fit in.
1:15:17 And so, as you were saying, maybe they get together and they try to figure out how they can help that student to see that problem, you know, to make it so that it won’t be a problem in the community.
1:15:36 And the thing that seems to be a problem is that when they get to the point and they can’t see a way to let the student see their problem, then it’s easier to fall back on authority rather than try to see the problem.
1:15:57 Do you know what I mean? So that you get reactions and so on.
1:16:03 K: I don’t quite catch it. Do you understand this? I haven’t understood the question, sir – sorry. I may be sleepy this morning but I haven’t understood it. Q Maybe I haven’t been clear then. It seems like…
1:16:17 K: Are you trying to say this: that if a student or a person has a problem, how to deal with that problem, between the staff and the student who has the problem – is that it?
1:16:42 Q: I think he’s saying that it’s easier - if the student has a problem, it’s easier for the staff who is helping him with the problem to fall back on authority rather than, you know, help him.
1:16:57 K: Ah, yes, yes, I have got it. I see.
1:17:00 Q: (Inaudible) K: I see, I see. If you as a student have a problem, you come to me as a member of the staff, and instead of helping you, I assume the authority, then of course nothing happens – you remain with your problem, I remain with my authority.
1:17:22 Q: Even if you try to help, you know, you just… you start out objective, then... And you can’t reach the person.
1:17:30 K: Yes, sir, that’s just it. Sir, you know in all this what is important? Do you know the word ‘humility’?
1:17:42 Not the humility of priests, which is no humility at all – it’s like a great man on the platform sitting and talking about humility.
1:17:53 You follow? I don’t mean that kind of humility. A mind that says, ‘Look, I know nothing, I want to learn.’ You understand?
1:18:04 The mind that says, ‘I want to learn about everything,’ therefore it becomes extraordinarily humble and has no vanity.
1:18:18 So when you come with a problem to me, and people have done by the thousands, all over the world, when they come, I listen.
1:18:31 I don’t say, ‘Well, I know,’ I don’t say, ‘I’m the big man, I’ll tell you what to do,’ I say, ‘Let’s talk it over.’ And they tell me what their… and it is solved because we listen to each other.
1:18:45 You follow?
1:18:56 You know, living in a community like this - and I’m emphasising the word ‘isolated’ - it is isolated and it has great benefit being isolated, not being near a town - which is a horror.
1:19:14 Being isolated we are thrown upon each other – you follow? - and we have to live together, and therefore we have to learn from each other.
1:19:31 And if you say, ‘You are the staff, we are the students,’ we stop learning. Bene? Right, sir? I think we’d better stop, don’t you?
1:19:48 Q: We could take it up next time, too, Krishnaji.
1:20:01 We could take it up next time we talk, too. We could continue it from next time.
1:20:10 K: Oh, yes. Yes, yes. I’d like to really teach you so much, learn together so much about…
1:20:21 Not about mathematics because I’m no good at mathematics, or geography or history, that’s not my function, thank God, because I can’t do it.
1:20:31 But I’d like to talk about, you know, psychological things. So I want you to learn, to be something entirely different. We’ll go at it.