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BR72DSS2.2 - Division is deadly
Brockwood Park, UK - 29 September 1972
Discussion with Staff and Students 2.2



0:01 This is J. Krishnamurti’s second discussion with teachers and students at Brockwood Park, 1972.
0:12 Krishnamurti: If I sat on the floor, would it be all right? But probably they can’t see me at the other end. Sorry. What shall we talk about? (Pause) All right, if you have no suggestion, I’ll start.
0:44 You know what tradition is?
0:54 The word itself means to carry over. Right, sir? Tradere. Especially in older civilisations, tradition is very strong.
1:15 Not only its culture but also in the family, in the community.
1:25 It is so steeped in the mind, that you must do certain things, that you must not do other things.
1:37 Behaviour, religion, conduct are based, mostly, on tradition.
1:49 And the older the culture is, the deeper the tradition.
1:58 Especially among a certain class or type in Indian community, the tradition is really frightening.
2:11 And to break away from that tradition requires a great deal of understanding, a great deal of insight, a great deal of vitality.
2:20 I do not know if you have been brought up in any tradition at all.
2:31 I doubt it very much. Probably in Europe, if you are from Europe, tradition is a little more strong, whereas in America tradition doesn’t really exist.
2:49 And Americans like the life of a traditional community because it’s the opposite of what they themselves are.
2:59 And, as I said, it is very difficult to break away from this tradition, and it’s very difficult not to create for oneself a tradition.
3:21 Do you understand what I am talking about?
3:29 All right? Do you understand what I’m talking about?
3:38 No? Oh, lord! Say, for instance, in India, where I happen to be born, tradition was extraordinarily powerful, more powerful than in the Catholic world, because it’s much older and they lived on that tradition.
4:07 And so it became more and more difficult to step out of it, think for yourself, not follow a certain groove, a tramline along which you ran, but to be free and yet not lose direction.
4:33 Do you understand what I am talking about?
4:43 Shall I go on about this? Are you interested in it?
4:54 Whereas in countries where there is very little tradition, they wander off, considering themselves independent, and creating all kinds of mess.
5:16 You see the difference? There is on one side heavy tradition, the Brahmanical tradition of India, the Buddhist tradition of the East, and the Western, European tradition.
5:37 And the further west you go the less tradition.
5:54 Tradition being what one has been taught or handed down.
6:03 So one has to find a balance between the extreme form of tradition, which weighs down in India and some of the countries in Asia - not in the technological world but in the world of thought, in the world of behaviour – and a world in which tradition hardly exists.
6:47 And most of us come here either with tradition or without tradition.
6:59 Say for instance, in India, a Brahmin boy at that time, seventy, a hundred years ago, he couldn’t play with boys who were not of his own community.
7:22 And if he did, he came back home, he was washed, changed his clothes, and couldn’t eat till he had purified himself from the contact of non-Brahmin.
7:42 You understand what that means? (Laughs) Tremendous tradition. I won’t go in to all the details of what they did in the old days.
7:58 And here in the West, tradition is disappearing more and more.
8:06 Now when you see all this, when you are aware of all this, when you have heard about all this, one has to learn – it seems to me – one has to learn a way of living, a way of behaviour, in which neither the oppressive tradition nor the laissez-aller, that is, you know, let go, but find out for oneself how to live, what it means to live – not how to live – what it means to live in which one is always free to move, not be bound to the past or to an idea.
9:14 You’ve got what I am talking about? Which means, can one learn without time, or is time necessary to learn?
9:46 You know, when you see some danger, physical danger, your action is immediate, isn’t it?
9:57 Have you noticed it? Are you all asleep this morning?
10:08 You see a snake and you react instantly.
10:15 There the reaction is conditioned by past knowledge, isn’t it?
10:26 You have been told snakes are dangerous, and that has been told to you for generations and generations, and the mind is conditioned to snakes.
10:41 There tradition is in operation. Right? You get what I’m talking about? Right? And that tradition is necessary there, otherwise you’ll be playing with a viper or with a cobra, and that would be quite dangerous.
11:05 So there that tradition, that conditioning, has taken time.
11:14 Right? You see, time involved in the sense many, many years, many generations have said - the father to the son and the son to the… and so on - say, ‘Look, be careful of snakes, be wise, be attentive to snakes, they are very dangerous.’ Now, is time necessary to learn that nationalism is dangerous?
11:55 You see what I mean?
12:05 Does it take time to see that where there is division between a Catholic and a Protestant – as it is happening in North Ireland – that division is deadly?
12:27 Do you follow what I am talking about? Do you see it? And to see that, does it take time? You see the difference? To learn about a dangerous snake, it has taken time - experiences of your grandfather, grandmother – you follow? - the past.
12:58 Be careful of a precipice. You don’t fall over and then learn. By then, if you fall over, you’re gone. But you know you have been told, ‘Be careful of precipices.’ Nobody has said, taught you, that division as Protestants and Catholics is a deadly thing.
13:29 Which is what is happening in Northern Ireland. And to learn that, does it take time? You have got my question? Have you got my question? Now how do you answer that question?
13:55 Does it take time to learn about division between human beings, as Catholics, Protestants, Hindus, Muslims, is a most deadly thing, or do you see it instantly?
14:15 You see the difference? Questioner: Seeing is instant but the observation of the whole process, it takes time.
14:28 K: What is that, Tunki, I haven’t heard?
14:32 Q: The seeing is instant once you have the whole picture there.
14:36 K: But you have the whole picture. You have the whole picture of wars that have been going on. If you have studied even a little history or read a few newspapers, you see this. There is war between Israel and the Arabs. There is war between Muslims and the Hindus. There is war between Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland.
15:06 You see that whole thing. And to see it and to act, does it take time? To see how stupid human beings are to divide themselves into Protestant, Catholic, and fight over it, kill each other, does it take time?
15:26 No. Does it? Many: No.
15:29 K: Why? Why do you say no?
15:31 Q: Because you know that all divisions are deadly.
15:40 K: How do you know, old boy?
15:44 Q: From tradition.
15:46 K: No, on the contrary, tradition says keep the division.
15:54 If you’re a highly practising Catholic you say protestants are the very devil.
16:02 That is tradition. If you are a Jew, an Israelite, you say you are the chosen people, you are the salt of the earth, you have got your tradition, keep to that.
16:16 You follow? As the Hindu, if he is a practising Hindu, he’s crystallised in that.
16:26 So tradition says hold the division.
16:34 You follow? And when you say, ‘Yes, I see how stupid it is, how deadly it is,’ what makes you say it?
16:46 Q: Because you see the fact that it is. You see the fact that you see these two opposing forces at each other.
16:54 K: So you see the facts. Right? Now what do you mean by the word ’see’? Does seeing the fact take time?
17:11 Q: It’s obvious, isn’t it? It is obvious.
17:17 K: Therefore, go in to it a little more, you will learn something. We’re learning from each other now. So you learn something. Tradition says keep the division – right? - be Catholic. Because you have been trained from childhood, through baptism, through all kinds of chicanery – sorry! – all kinds of absurdities, to be a Catholic.
17:49 And another is trained from childhood to be an Arab, Protestant.
17:56 So tradition says keep, hold on to this division. Though it brings war, we all love God. We all meet with God, in the lap of God, at the feet of God, but fight in the meantime like hell.
18:15 Sorry! Right? So division says… tradition says keep the division.
18:25 Now what makes you say that it is deadly?
18:32 Q: You’ve broken free of the tradition and now you can see clearly.
18:40 K: So you broke through tradition. Have you? Have you broken through tradition and see clearly?
18:49 Q: Sir, when we answer it with an assertion or words and say yes or no, I mean, we’re limiting our perception.
19:01 K: Wait, wait. Hold on a minute, I’m going to go in to that. Wait. Just see the fact. Tradition says keep the division. Right? And that tradition is the result of time. Since two thousand years, for two thousand years the priests have done this, made propaganda, and kept the division, tight.
19:40 That took two thousand years to condition man to that. The other night I heard a priest talking about conditions in South Africa, how terrible they are, but he said it as a Christian.
20:00 You follow? He was looking at it as a Christian. Not as a human being but as a Christian. As a Christian believing in Jesus, the Saviour, and so on, so on, so on.
20:18 Which is, his mind is conditioned and acts according to his belief.
20:27 Now what makes you say division is deadly? Is it that you have broken through tradition, or I have persuaded you to see it?
20:42 Q: It’s obvious. It’s just obvious.
20:44 K: All right, my dear chap, if it is obvious, why is it obvious to you and not to me?
20:57 Look. Why is it obvious to you and not to me, who is a Catholic and bound in that?
21:02 Q: Because you’re conditioned in it.
21:04 K: Quite right. Don’t be too quick. I am conditioned. You say, ‘Look, I am not conditioned. I may be in other directions but I am not conditioned in that direction.’ Right?
21:16 Q: You’re making an assertion, right there.
21:21 K: No, I’m not making an assertion, I’m pointing out something. Don’t stick to the word ‘assertion’ yet. We’re learning. We are learning, I’m not asserting. So you say, to see something deadly needs no time.
21:44 Because you, being young or unconditioned, or not caught in my particular tradition, say, ‘By Jove, what a silly thing.
21:54 Why don’t you see this? I see it, why don’t you?’ Right? So you are seeing the obvious needs no time.
22:10 Now wait a minute, a little further.
22:13 Q: Just a moment. But to come to the seeing you need to collect the whole process of happening.
22:19 K: I see it, Tunki.
22:20 Q: Which is time.
22:22 K: No. Does it take time to see how Muslims and Hindus are fighting, Arabs and Jews, Protestants and Catholics?
22:31 Just to see it, to hear about it.
22:35 Q: Yes, but to trace, to be able to say it is because...
22:41 K: Ah, the causations may be many. The explanations may be varied. You follow?
22:51 Q: No, as you said, it is because they hold onto tradition.
23:02 It took time because then we have to go back to the past.
23:03 K: That’s right. So, when you say, ‘It is obvious,’ the obviousness of it is instantaneous, isn’t it?
23:17 Right? So you can learn instantly. You are following what I am saying?
23:24 Q: By seeing you are saying you are learning?
23:29 K: Wait, sir. See this extraordinary thing, go into it with me, if you will. You can learn instantly if it is obvious.
23:44 Right? Now, is it obvious about nationalities? It’s obvious, isn’t it? I’m an Indian and you are a something or other and we fight.
24:01 It’s so obvious. Now go a little deeper. Now comes the difficulty. I can see obviously that Catholic and Protestant, Hindu, Muslim, Israelites and the Arabs, this division causes disaster.
24:24 Right? Because it’s very obvious.
24:33 Is it obvious to you that if you have an opinion – you understand, an opinion, that is a preconceived idea about something or a conclusion that you have derived through experience – opinion – now, isn’t opinion dangerous?
25:08 Q: Opinion would be the same as belief, except subtle.
25:18 K: That’s right – belief, a conclusion.
25:27 Right? So, do you see that instantly, that opinion is dangerous, is not worth having, or will it take time?
25:45 Q: It is dangerous.
25:49 K: You say it is dangerous. Do we all say it is dangerous?
25:53 Q: I don’t know.
25:54 K: I’m asking – naturally you don’t know. Do we all say it’s dangerous? Many: Yes.
26:02 K: And therefore you have no opinions? (Laughter) Q: Surely it is only dangerous when…
26:09 K: Go step by step. You understand? If you see the obviousness of the division between Catholic, Protestant and all the rest of it, is dangerous, if you see nationalism is dangerous, and therefore you’re not a nationalist – right? - and therefore you’re not a Catholic, Protestant, Hindu, Muslim – you say, ‘I’m a human being, I’ve no labels.’ But when it comes to opinion you say it is dangerous, but yet you keep your opinions.
26:49 You follow? So you are merely verbally saying that it is dangerous, but inwardly you hold on to your opinions.
27:06 Right? So you are hypocrite (laughs). Are you?
27:14 Q: Yes.
27:15 K: If I say opinions, beliefs are deadly because I see the facts in the world – after all, when you call yourself Catholic, it’s a belief – right? - it’s an opinion; there is no such thing as a factual Catholic or a factual Protestant; if you’re factual you don’t belong to either.
27:44 So your opinion you discard verbally but hold onto it inwardly.
27:54 Right? Do you?
27:56 Q: I’m certainly holding on to some, yes.
27:59 K: Not some… You don’t say, ‘I’ll hang halfway down the precipice.’ You don’t go near the precipice.
28:11 So you see the difference. Now look at it. You have some opinions which you hold on to and you have some which you drop.
28:31 Now will it take time to drop all opinions?
28:36 Q: No.
28:40 K: No? Have you dropped all your opinions?
28:46 Q: No, but I verbally see that it shouldn’t take time. I see intellectually that it shouldn’t take time.
29:04 K: Ah! Do you see intellectually the precipice? (Laughter) Q: We are speaking in terms of…
29:08 K: Watch it, sir. I’m showing you something, do learn. We’re learning together. Learning about a danger, does it take time?
29:17 Q: Yes.
29:19 K: You follow my point?
29:21 Q: Physical danger.
29:23 K: Physical danger. We went into that: precipice, snake, a bus – that’s dangerous.
29:33 You act instantly because you see the obvious danger.
29:41 But opinion is equally obvious, but you don’t see it.
29:51 Now, will it take time for you to see it, the obviousness of the fact that opinions are dangerous?
30:08 And you say, ‘Yes, by Jove, it’ll take time, because I like some opinions. I like to think that you are a scoundrel. I like to think you’re an awful chap. I don’t like you.’ And I keep to that feeling. Just a minute, sir. I keep to that feeling because I like it. So you keep opinions that are satisfactory and discard those which are not.
30:37 So, you need time to discard those which are satisfactory, to get rid of.
30:46 You are following all this? So you say, ‘I need time to learn.’ Are you getting all this?
30:54 Q: Isn’t there a difficulty that if you have no opinion at all, you don’t exist?
31:00 K: Wait. I’m not talking of having no opinions. We’re going to find out. I am coming to that. I am saying the fact that opinions are dangerous. Opinions being conclusions about the future or about people, beliefs, which are opinions also – ‘I believe Jesus is the Saviour.’ I know nothing about it, but I believe because I’ve been told.
31:40 And that remains with me. And that divides me against a Protestant, or a communist who doesn’t believe in anything.
31:50 Now for me, does it take time to learn about an obvious fact?
32:02 You get it?
32:03 Q: But sometimes the first time when you see an obvious fact, it’s easier for you to just put it in the back of your mind.
32:15 You know it but you don’t…
32:17 K: Yes, but that is… You see that and put it at the back of your mind. Does that form a conclusion, an opinion? Isn’t it? You understand our problem, sir?
32:43 Does it take time to learn about an obvious fact, psychological or physical?
33:01 It takes time when the mind is lazy. Right? Is your mind lazy? (Laughs) Q: No, any learning has...
33:22 K: …has to take time.
33:26 Q: Yes.
33:27 K: Wait. Yes, I’ll take your question. Which is, any learning needs time. I have to have time to learn a language. Right? To learn mathematics, to learn about – oh, I don’t know – how to go to the moon, it takes time.
33:49 Right? Because learning a language I have to hear it over and over again.
33:58 It will take many, many months. Now, does it take time to learn that anger – let’s take that, change it – that anger, greed, violence, is ugly, is painful, is not necessary?
34:35 If you say it takes time, why? Why should it take time for me to learn that anger is – whatever it is – is ugly?
34:54 Does it take time to learn that?
34:57 Q: You can see it.
35:00 K: You can see it. And when you see it as clearly as the precipice then you’ll never be angry, will you?
35:08 Q: You can see it in someone else but it’s not easy to see it in yourself.
35:17 K: I’m asking you, not whether I’m angry or someone else. Then it’s not your business. But I say to myself, ‘I’m angry.’ Does it take time to be free from anger?
35:30 Q: No, once you see it. Once you see it you just…
35:36 K: Do you see it?
35:39 Q: But we need time to see it. When you see that precipice in front of you, you don’t put your mind, you only see it and you react immediately.
35:50 K: Yes. Now why don’t you react in the same way to anger?
35:53 Q: Because I can’t see the anger.
35:55 K: What do you mean you can’t see it?
35:57 Q: I don’t see the fact, really.
35:59 K: No. You don’t see anger when you get angry? When you get violent, when you are greedy?
36:06 Q: Maybe I can’t see it, I escape, I go away.
36:13 K: Why do you throw it away?
36:15 Q: I need it.
36:16 K: You like it.
36:17 Q: Maybe.
36:18 K: Let’s be simple about it. You like it.
36:20 Q: I don’t know how to do another, different thing.
36:27 K: So, (laughs) you like to keep those things, though they’re dangerous, because you like them.
36:35 Q: Because I don’t know.
36:37 K: I’ve got cancer and I like it. (Laughter) Q: I want to see it.
36:44 K: Ah, not ‘want’. So you see what it indicates? A mind – not from him, what he’s saying – that a mind that takes pleasure in danger is incapable of learning.
37:10 If I like anger, being angry, I won’t learn.
37:19 I like it. It gives me a certain sense of vitality, a certain sense of - you know? - it is like having poison in my system, that gives me extra vitality.
37:28 Q: Is that a form of conditioning, more or less?
37:35 K: No, not necessarily. But look at yourself, sir. Watch yourself, not somebody else. You get angry, don’t you? Why don’t you learn immediately that anger is a poison?
37:59 There is no righteous anger or anger caused by various…
38:06 Anger in itself is poison. Why don’t you see it immediately, or learn immediately that it is poison and therefore you put it away completely?
38:20 Q: Why don’t I?
38:23 K: Yes.
38:24 Q: When I see that I’m angry, it’s just something, you know... You know you’re angry and it doesn’t help anything.
38:33 K: No, then what do you do with it? Keep it?
38:37 Q: Well no, it’s a fact that it doesn’t help anything. You know, it doesn’t. You know, what good is it to be mad?
38:43 K: Do you totally discard it?
38:46 Q: I guess you have to if you…
38:48 K: Not ’guess you have to’, but do you?
38:51 Q: Yes. I mean, yes.
38:53 K: Wait. From that you begin to say: I am learning about anger. Right?
39:00 Q: You see it.
39:02 K: Yes. I’m learning. It doesn’t mean that you’ll never be angry – you may be – but you’re learning about anger.
39:09 Q: The danger.
39:10 K: About the danger of anger. Therefore you have seen the danger. Right? So to see danger doesn’t take time.
39:21 Q: No.
39:22 Q: But the process of learning takes time. I mean, as you said, you are learning about anger and that takes time. Each time you’re angry you see it.
39:36 K: Does it? Does it? Tunki, we are talking at parallel purposes. Just look at it. I said to learn a language needs time. Right? Does it take time to learn about anger? Does it take time to learn about, when you are under a tree the branch is breaking off, that it’s going to fall on you?
40:02 You rush, don’t you?
40:09 Come on, Tunki.
40:10 Q: Well, yes.
40:13 K: So, you have to find out for yourself what it means to learn.
40:21 Right? Now, I have a habit, say I have a habit of scratching my head or wrinkling my face.
40:32 I have a habit. Does it take time to stop that habit, to learn of that habit and therefore end it?
40:43 Come on, sir, discuss it with me. Haven’t you got habits, physical habits? Many: Yes.
40:52 K: Right. Do you know what they are?
40:57 Q: If it does take time then you have the idea beforehand that you should get rid of it.
41:06 K: No. I’ve got a habit, sir. I’m just taking a habit, not ‘get rid of it’.
41:09 Q: Just see it.
41:10 K: I want to learn about it. I’ve made it very clear. I want to learn about my habit, why I have a habit.
41:21 Now look, I have a habit. When I ask why I have a habit, I have to examine the cause of it.
41:31 Right? Are you following? And the examination of the cause of it takes time.
41:39 Q: Okay.
41:42 K: But to see the habit and to act about it doesn’t take time.
41:54 But if you sit down and analyse, that takes time. In the meantime you’re frowning, in the meantime you’re carrying on. So, analysis brings paralysis. (Laughter) That is, analysis prevents you from acting.
42:18 I wonder if you are getting all this, or is it all too difficult for you?
42:33 Q: No.
42:34 K: No? Right, let’s proceed from there. Do you learn, not be concerned with time, but learn?
42:52 You understand? I have to learn a language; that needs time. I can’t suddenly speak Russian tomorrow. But I can see and learn instantly about the dangers of beliefs.
43:14 Right? I may take time to get rid of all of them – you are following? - but to see it instantly doesn’t take time.
43:28 Look, sir, when I was a boy, they found me – I won’t go into all the details of it – my brother and myself.
43:43 They formed a tremendous organisation round me, with thousands of members all over the world, with a great deal of property, five thousand acres, a castle, this and that and the other thing.
43:55 Organised it. I saw that such spiritual organisations were dangerous.
44:09 One more. One more. Instead of having Catholics, Protestants – you follow? - Jews, another was added. I said that is a very ugly, dangerous thing. So I said it must be dissolved. The dissolution took time – you understand? – but the seeing the fact needed no time.
44:36 But if would have taken time if I had said, ‘By Jove, I like this.
44:47 I like to be head of this show. I know it’s dangerous but I like it. I like property, position, prestige, it’s marvellous - worshipped and all the rest of it,’ so I play with it and go on playing with it.
45:01 You follow? I know it is dangerous but I like it. So, if you see something dangerous, you see it totally, and therefore you say, ‘Well, I’m out.’ You understand?
45:23 And the seeing of it doesn’t take time at all.
45:31 What takes time is how to do it, you know, all the procedure of it.
45:38 Q: To come to the seeing, it does take time.
45:40 K: Does it? Tunki, old boy, just look at it, I explained it.
45:49 Q: Otherwise why should you build at all. If you see it before, then you don’t build this at all. You were saying about… you were building this movement.
46:03 K: I didn’t build it. Yes, go on – building this movement – what?
46:08 Q: And then one day you see it.
46:09 K: Yes.
46:10 K: That’s why you dissolved it. But to come to the seeing it takes time, because otherwise you would have stopped it before, before it began.
46:17 K: (Laughs) No, you don’t know all the circumstances of it so I can’t go into it now.
46:24 Don’t take me, because that was… I’ve done lots of things like that, but don’t take me. Look at yourselves. To see for yourself that anger, greed, habit, to see it instantly, does it take time?
46:48 To see it. You follow? And the seeing of it is the learning of it.
46:59 Q: That’s what you call learning. Seeing is learning.
47:03 K: Yes, seeing is learning. I see I’m angry. Listen to it carefully. I see I am angry and I say: now, why am I angry? Because you used angry words about me. I reacted. Why did I react? Because I thought I was a great man, or I had an opinion or an image about myself. I didn’t want that image to be hurt – right? – and therefore I retaliated.
47:32 That’s the process of it. But to learn about it, to say: look what has happened, how silly of me, because he called me a damn fool.
47:45 To see that doesn’t take time. I wonder if you see all this. Yes, sir.
47:53 Q: Before you have talked about that we need to be very interested and not be lazy and that maybe…
48:06 K: Ah, no, I didn’t say that. I didn’t say we haven’t got to be lazy. I object to… You are asserting something; I didn’t. I said: look, is our mind lazy, which prevents us from seeing?
48:20 Q: Yes, right. But our problem is that we are not really interested and we are very lazy, and how… such a mind can’t be…
48:29 K: Why are you lazy, then? Because you’re not having the right food?
48:39 Q: No.
48:40 K: Right exercise? You don’t sleep enough? You expend your energy uselessly? You follow? You have to go into all this to find out why your mind is lazy. Or is it lazy because you’re conditioned to be lazy? (Laughs) Your mother did everything for you. You never washed dishes, your poor old mother did it. You follow? The whole conditioning may be what is making you lazy.
49:21 So you have to… But to see that your mind is lazy doesn’t take time.
49:35 What takes time is: why it has become lazy.
49:43 But to act – you understand? – action takes place when you see it – say, ‘By Jove, anger is a terrible thing.’ I don’t know if you are getting all this.
50:02 Q: But to see it, I need to not to be lazy.
50:06 K: Then what will you do? My mind is lazy. I don’t see anger is ugly. Now what am I to do? Go on, sir, pursue it. What am I to do?
50:21 Q: I don’t understand you very well.
50:29 Sorry.
50:30 K: You say: my mind is lazy and therefore, being lazy, it doesn’t see anger as being danger… as being whatever it is.
50:42 Now, why is my mind lazy?
50:46 Q: I don’t know. I only feel that I am lazy.
50:54 K: You’re lazy – why is your mind lazy, sir? Go into it! Is your mind lazy?
51:05 Q: Yes.
51:08 K: Tunki, is your mind lazy?
51:12 Q: I can only know when I compare with somebody else.
51:15 K: Ah, no, don’t quote me. Come off it! (Laughter) Q: No, no, that’s true.
51:20 K: Come off it. Is your mind lazy? Lazy to learn, lazy to see something very clearly, instantly.
51:36 Is your mind lazy when your house is on fire? Is your mind lazy when somebody tears your book away from you? You act very quickly, don’t you. So your mind is lazy where your interests are not touched.
52:00 Q: Yes.
52:02 K: Wait. (Laughs) Q: Yes, but the problem is that...
52:07 K: Wait, sir, wait, take it step by step. As long as my interests are not touched I don’t care.
52:18 Touch my interests, I’m all there, I’m not lazy.
52:25 Take away my other pair of trousers, I’m all there. So you’re very sensitive where your self-interest is concerned.
52:38 Therefore there you’re not lazy.
52:46 But where your self-interest isn’t, what does it matter? It’s your house that’s burning, not mine. You are getting this?
52:57 Q: Does it mean if you don’t have any self-interest you are lazy about everything?
53:09 K: You see what you… (laughs) You see, you’re making an affirmative question. I’m saying, first, your mind is lazy.
53:23 It may be because you’re conditioned to be lazy. Or it may be that you haven’t taken enough rest, sleep. Or it may be because you have overeaten. Or it may be because it doesn’t want to go out, experiment, look, because it’s frightening to look.
53:50 Therefore you say, ‘No, I won’t look.’ So all these are contributory factors to laziness.
53:59 And another factor to laziness is self-interest. Now, if your mind fits into one of these categories, how do you learn about it?
54:14 Learn in the sense see it and begin to act.
54:25 You get my point?
54:26 Q: Yes, but we are in a circle.
54:29 K: No. Look, I’m lazy this morning. Why? Because I went to London, I had teeth trouble, and the dentist, and I was tired this morning.
54:40 Right? That’s not laziness. Right? Another day I’m lazy in the morning because I’ve overeaten.
54:55 So what do I do? I’m very careful about my diet because I don’t want to be lazy – you understand? - I want to have a quick mind, because I want to learn.
55:10 It may be my tradition that has made me… conditioning has made me lazy so, I examine my conditioning.
55:17 I don’t say… I am lazy. I don’t accept for myself that there is anything inherent in me which I can’t break through.
55:28 You follow? I don’t say, ‘Well, I’m lazy, what am I going to do about it?’ (Laughs) ‘I am angry, it’s all right, why shouldn’t I be angry?’ I want to know, I want to learn.
55:51 Look, the other day on the television somebody was interviewing the Archbishop of Canterbury.
56:02 You know who he is? The top priest of the Anglican Church, of England.
56:11 The interviewer asked him about the various other religions: Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism and so on.
56:18 He said, ‘Yes, they’ve got some truth in them, they’re all right.’ And the questioner went on to say, ‘Why do you say that’s all right?
56:28 If they have truth why don’t you join them, why don’t you bring them all together?’ He said, ‘No, we have one thing which no other religion has.’ He said, ‘What’s that?’ He said, ‘We have Jesus Christ.’ You follow?
56:47 (Laughter) You laugh, but he didn’t laugh. I said, ‘My lord, look at it.’ Here is a man, oldish – you follow? - very learned, and not know a simple fact, which is that he’s conditioned.
57:09 As the Hindu would say: yes, of course all the religions have truth, but we have got something which no other religions have got.
57:19 So I listened to it and say: am I conditioned that way? Immediately I picked it up. You follow? I want to know, I want to learn. So I look at it, I look at myself. Is there any part inside me where there is any belief about myself, about somebody else?
57:42 You follow? Therefore your mind, if it is lazy, it can’t pick it up. So you have to find out why you are lazy.
57:56 But the inquiry takes time but the seeing that you’re lazy doesn’t take time.
58:08 The seeing is the learning, and the learning, you look.
58:18 Q: So we need the time to inquire.
58:26 K: (Laughs) You see, when you put it that way, it’s wrong. Then you say, ‘Yes, I’m inquiring into my violence.’ While I kick you, I’m inquiring into my violence.
58:38 (Laughter) Q: But you said that if we see that we’re angry, if we see the danger of anger, we’ll never be angry again.
58:56 K: Yes, because I see the totality of anger, not just…
59:03 The seeing, the inquiry, I see the whole thing at once, myself, therefore it’s finished.
59:11 Q: There’s nothing more to learn about it.
59:17 K: No, what is there to learn? I’ve learnt, I’ve see the absurdity of anger, the cause of it, the whole packet of it I’ve seen, because I won’t allow time to interfere with it.
59:36 But when you say, ‘Well, I’ll inquire into it, which needs time,’ then you’re using time.
59:45 Look, when you see a precipice, does it take time?
59:52 Q: No, you see it.
59:55 K: No - why? You see the danger of it, don’t you? You don’t say, ‘Well, I’ll inquire about falling over,’ you see the whole thing, don’t you?
1:00:08 The danger, you may your leg broken or you may kill yourself - you see the whole implication of it.
1:00:19 The seeing of the whole of it doesn’t take time. Whereas one is unwilling to see the totality of anger, all the implications of anger, instantly.
1:00:33 Therefore one says: I’ll inquire. It’ll take time for me to be free of violence, it’ll take time to be free of Jesus and Buddha.
1:00:46 You follow? I play with it.
1:00:52 Q: But if you’ve been conditioned for so long about something, for instance, I’ve been conditioned about a precipice, that if I walk off the edge I’m going to kill myself or hurt myself.
1:01:09 Now say I’d never spoken to anybody in my whole life, I’d never learnt about anything and I walked up to this precipice, how am I to know that I’m going to hurt myself?
1:01:18 K: Now, wait a minute. So what will you do?
1:01:20 Q: I’d probably just walk right off the edge.
1:01:28 K: Would you?
1:01:29 Q: And we haven’t been conditioned that much to anger.
1:01:32 K: Now, all right. Look at it, see what you’re saying. That is, you’re conditioned about the precipice, you’re conditioned about nationalism, you’re conditioned about belief, you’re conditioned about God, about your social status, so you are a totally conditioned human being.
1:01:58 Right? Being totally conditioned, how can you meet another who is conditioned differently?
1:02:11 You can’t, you keep… there is an abyss, a vast space between you, and therefore you fight.
1:02:19 Right? So how do you learn about your conditioning?
1:02:31 Do you know you’re conditioned?
1:02:35 Q: Only in action. Only when the conditioning is in action.
1:02:47 K: Aren’t you acting all day?
1:02:51 Q: Yes.
1:02:52 K: You don’t have to have tremendous action for your conditioning to be revealed; you’re acting all day.
1:03:01 So in watching all day, you learn about your conditioning.
1:03:11 I’m sorry that… So my question is: does it take time for me to learn about myself?
1:03:30 You see, I’m asking a totally different… – ‘myself’ being my anger, my conditioning, my prejudices, my furniture, my attachment to this house or to that house – you understand?
1:03:50 - my name. That’s my conditioning, many, many, many layers of it.
1:04:00 Does it take time to learn about this whole conditioning?
1:04:12 I have been conditioned in idealism.
1:04:19 I’m an idealist. Which is, I say there is God, society must be this, I must live with my parents because it is the right thing.
1:04:36 You follow? I’m conditioned, as a Hindu, as a Muslim, as God knows what else. Now - listen to this - does it take time to learn about all these layers?
1:04:52 Q: If it takes time then it’s just another conditioning.
1:04:57 K: That’s just it. So I am conditioned to accept time as a means of learning – right? - and you come along and tell me time is not necessary.
1:05:10 And I say, ‘What the Dickens do you mean by it? Explain.’ And what am I doing? I’m caught in your explanation and discussing about your explanation. You follow? So that’s another escape. I don’t say, ‘Yes, by Jove, you’re right, I’m conditioned.’ Are you conditioned?
1:05:37 Are you aware of your conditioning, layer by layer? You follow? Are you aware of the total onion? (Laughs) You get it? You know, the onion? Peel off, layer after layer, layer after layer. So answer it, sir, discuss it with me. Does it take time to see the total onion – you understand? - the whole of it, including all the layers?
1:06:23 And I am all the layers: my attachment, my opinions, my fears, my pleasures, my experiences, my wanting to be this – you follow?
1:06:34 – I’m all these innumerable layers, conscious, unconscious. I am that. Does it take time to see the whole of it?
1:06:48 And I’m educated, conditioned to say: yes, it’ll take time, old boy.
1:06:57 You understand? So I approach the many layers through my conditioned belief that time is necessary to unravel it.
1:07:14 You are following all this?
1:07:24 So I say to myself, is time necessary to see the whole thing at all?
1:07:31 So when I put that question, I’m putting the wrong question because I’m introducing time.
1:07:43 Does it take time… does it take… do you see the totality of the tree, the whole of it, the branches, the leaves, the faded autumnal colours, everything - you see it at once, don’t you?
1:08:04 Can you see yourself completely, at once?
1:08:10 Q: In other words, you’re saying: can you see the whole of conditioning, period, the dangers of conditioning?
1:08:25 K: See it, totally.
1:08:27 Q: Don’t fragment it, just see the whole.
1:08:29 K: The whole of it: being a Hindu, being this or that – you follow? – the whole of it.
1:08:38 Q: If I answer a question like that with a yes or no…
1:08:47 K: Ah, there is no yes or no - that becomes silly.
1:08:49 Q: I said if I do answer with a yes or no, I’ve stopped questioning.
1:08:56 K: Quite right, yes. Quite right. So by putting the question you are learning that any assertive answer is no answer.
1:09:11 Right? All that you are doing by putting the question is to look, and to discover for yourself whether you are looking at it totally or partially.
1:09:26 Q: Is anger a fragment?
1:09:33 K: Anger is a fragment.
1:09:40 Q: So you can look wholly at a fragment.
1:09:45 K: Obviously. And when you see the fragment you see the whole.
1:09:58 You see, look, anger is a fragment, as non-anger is a fragment.
1:10:12 So when I look at that fragment totally, I see the whole of it: the non-anger, anger, the whole structure of myself being angry.
1:10:28 I don’t know if you see all that. Look, sir, put it round the other way – it may be too difficult, I won’t go that way – I see what the world is, how complex it is, how absurd it is, how destructive it is.
1:11:08 And myself is the world. Right? Is that clear? I am the world and the world is me, because the world has made me and I’ve made the world.
1:11:25 Right? Now, do you see that, or is it a verbal statement which you accept and therefore of no value at all?
1:11:40 You just accept it verbally that’s it’s a beautiful day, but you never look out of the window.
1:11:48 So if you are the world and world is you, the world has made you and you have made the world – if that’s a tremendous fact to you – fact, not an idea – that you’re part of this mess, which each one has created - your parents, your grandparents – you follow? – and you see one has to live totally differently.
1:12:35 And to live totally differently any part of that corruption can’t exist in you. Right? The ideals, the beliefs, the superstitions - you follow? Now, to see that totally, does something.
1:13:01 Not in the affirmative sense that you are different, which is absurd, but the seeing has broken the contact.
1:13:17 Then you proceed to dig out all the rubbish. You understand?
1:13:32 You see, tradition has said follow, follow your leader – political leader, religious leader – follow, because by yourself you can’t move.
1:14:10 Part of it is true, part of it is totally untrue. Tradition has said there is a saviour. You see, the church has been awfully clever, you know?
1:14:28 First they invent sin – I don’t know if you have noticed it, have you?
1:14:35 – first they invent sin, then to save you from that sin there must be a saviour, a redeemer, and then you become the follower, and therefore you can’t be rid of sin except through the saviour.
1:14:51 You follow? The absurdity of all of it! Now, when you see this whole human movement, of which you are a part, and you see it…
1:15:17 because in the seeing your intelligence is in operation – you understand?
1:15:24 - therefore you act intelligently. Not the opposite of what the world is. You follow what I am saying?
1:15:41 (Pause) Yesterday I met a man at lunch in a restaurant.
1:15:57 I had lunch with him… we had lunch with him, and he was saying that yoga is no good at all: ‘I don’t think it’s necessary; it’s unnatural.
1:16:34 What is natural is walking, swimming, climbing, jumping, but not any specific or collected asanas, you know, yoga.’ And I said, ‘Why not?
1:16:53 Why do you say it isn’t good, it isn’t beneficial?’ He said, ‘Look at all the people who are teaching.’ He said, ‘They’re all crooks, they’re all after money.’ I said, ‘Look, I agree that most of them are after money, and is yoga…’ – you know?
1:17:25 Where is Mr… Oh, there you are, sir. ‘Is yoga unnecessary?’ Have you done any of it?
1:17:43 Q: (Inaudible)

K: You have done it, haven’t you? You do, some of you, do you? Do you do it regularly or haphazardly?
1:17:57 You do it regularly, every day. I do it for an hour and a half every morning. I’ve been doing it for the last thirty years, more.
1:18:16 And is it necessary?
1:18:23 I want to find out. You understand? We are learning about it, you and I.
1:18:37 Not the teachers who do it, whether their life is crooked or not - that’s not my concern.
1:18:46 If they want to be crooked, let them be, I can’t do anything about it.
1:18:53 But I want to find out if yoga is right. Which is, will it help to keep the body supple?
1:19:06 That is, yoga was invented, as I pointed out, to keep the glands, you know, healthy, active.
1:19:18 Will it help? Or walking, swimming, running, jumping - you follow? Go on, sir.
1:19:29 Q: Why compare the yoga with… Why can’t we do all? Why do we have to set up a comparison?
1:19:40 K: No I don’t. Do both if you want. What is important is to keep your body supple, healthy, young, active, not lazy.
1:19:59 Right? Now, if I run five miles a day – I used to - or play three times a day golf, which is about a nine to ten miles a day walk – you can’t do all those things – you follow?
1:20:19 - you haven’t time. I can’t walk from here to West Meon or further every day.
1:20:30 It’ll take time. I haven’t time. So I say: now what is the best exercise? I walk, but you can only devote some time to walking, half an hour, an hour, whatever it is.
1:20:46 So, I do it because it keeps me supple, I don’t attribute all kinds of stuff to it.
1:20:59 Now why do you do it? Do you do it? Why do you do it? (Laughs) You like Mr Fowler, that’s why you do it?
1:21:16 Q: No.
1:21:18 K: Why do you do it?
1:21:21 Q: Sir, I’ve only taken it one day and I just had my first class, and then I want to find out whether or not it is beneficial to the body – I don’t know.
1:21:31 K: That is, you’re learning. That’s my point. You don’t say, ‘Well, yoga is marvellous.’ You say, ‘Now I’m going to learn about it, what it means, whether it’s really important.’ Q: I don’t know anything about it.
1:21:48 K: That’s right, so you begin like learning a language. You don’t know anything about it; you’re going to learn.
1:21:53 Q: I want to learn.
1:21:55 K: Yes, you want to learn, and see how it affects your body. So you approach it without any conclusion. You don’t know.
1:22:06 Q: I don’t know.
1:22:08 K: No. So I say it’s the most marvellous thing for me. If you accept my opinion about it and did it because you think it helps me therefore it must help you, then you’re cuckoo.
1:22:24 You follow? So, to learn you must be free to go into it, not depend on somebody else to tell you.
1:22:38 Right. I’m covering as much as I can. And if you do it, stick to it till you find out, not just give up half way round.
1:22:52 Q: If I don’t, if I come to a conclusion, I mean, if I start, I learn certain exercises and then I go along, then I don’t do certain exercises – I mean, I stop right there, I don’t learn any more, there isn’t anything there.
1:23:11 I stop right there. Okay, if I go along and do the exercises and while I’m doing the exercises I’m watching – I’m just watching while I’m doing it.
1:23:29 K: That’s right. Do you teach them, sir, pranayama, breathing?
1:23:31 Q: Yes, sir.
1:23:32 Q: I believe that was the one I did yesterday, Jim, isn’t that correct?
1:23:33 Q: Yes.
1:23:34 Q: Yes. It does help me.
1:23:40 K: Sir, look, while we are young, if you do something, do it completely, not half way.
1:24:00 You follow? If you want to learn the violin, learn.
1:24:09 You follow? If you want to learn a language, completely learn it. Yoga, go into it thoroughly, find out, examine. As we said the other day, when you leave Brockwood, you’re going to be different human beings.
1:24:30 That’s our responsibility, not just the good old stuff - go out and become a businessman – you follow?
1:24:41 Be different and then you’ll… intelligent, and therefore you’ll do something intelligently. Right? Right. We’d better stop.