Krishnamurti - Do we collectively feel responsibility?

Krishnamurti Subtitles

BR72DT1.2 - Do we collectively feel responsibility?
Brockwood Park, UK - 7 June 1972
Discussion with Teachers 1.2

0:00	This is J. Krishnamurti’s second discussion with teachers at Brockwood Park, 1972.
0:11	Krishnamurti: What shall we...
0:27	Doris Pratt: I personally feel very, very concerned, I really do, about the fact that so many of our students are going to leave us now little better, I think, than when they came.
0:37	They are still looking as sloppy, acting as carelessly as before, and I think it’s… I don’t feel somehow that we on the staff have been able to show our love and care for the students nearly enough.
0:55	They are slopping around the same as they did at the beginning, almost, and although individuals have done it there seems to be something lacking in our total approach of care and affection for these students.
1:09	I think we all feel it, it’s not just me – we all feel that way.
1:19	We’re reduced to nagging.
1:26	K: Do you think the general state of the world is like that and these students are just part of this wretched, miserable world – sloppy, indecent, vulgar, and they’re just part of that whole circus.
1:46	DP: I do think that and we all think that, but they’ve come here to be something special.
1:49	K: I know. So what shall we do?
1:55	DP: We really want to know what to do, because I’m quite convinced that everybody here feels deeply concerned that we have failed in the way the students are behaving.
2:05	K: So what shall we do? So what shall we do together? Are we agreed to that, all of us, to what Miss Pratt is saying?
2:17	Or do we have different opinions about it?
2:30	If you’re agreed on that point, what is our responsibility?
2:47	Do we feel responsible?
3:01	I don’t know how to approach this question because in my life, if I may a little talk about myself, I’ve never been sloppy.
3:15	I feel absolutely responsible for myself, what I do.
3:22	Nobody has to tell me, ‘Look, you’re wrong, do this, do that.’ Not because I’m conceited, but I want… to me, behaviour is very important.
3:41	And I wonder if each one of us feels that way – in ourselves we are not sloppy, in ourselves we feel very strongly an orderly life is necessary.
4:01	Not outwardly, a better room and all that – inwardly, really, an orderly life.
4:10	Or we just exist from day to day and carry on. I think that may be a source of our irresponsibility – if we are irresponsible.
4:22	Am I conveying? I don’t mind making a mistake.
4:32	If you tell me that it’s a mistake, I’ll go over it, think it out very carefully and see what – you follow?
4:40	Are we receptive enough, sensitive enough and responsible enough to see that in ourselves we are not what the students are, the world is.
5:02	You know, to use the good old phrase, which is quite inadequate – we don’t set the tone, do we?
5:32	Que pensez-vous? Come on, sir, let’s discuss this.
5:44	(Pause) DP: To an extent I think that people do set the tone.
6:03	K: That isn’t good enough. Questioner: No.
6:05	K: That isn’t good enough. Up to a certain extent, or a little, that isn’t good enough.
6:09	DP: You see, sir, we have to run the school from day to day.
6:12	K: I understand all that, Miss Pratt.
6:15	Q: And we the school to be totally and instantly transformed.
6:17	K: Wait a minute, I’m not talking of totally. I am saying, if I was part of this school, the staff, concerned as I must be, I would look at it: do I feel responsible?
6:41	Or, you know, I say, ‘Well, let it go.’ DP: I don’t readily see what more we can do.
6:59	K: I think there is a lot to do – I’ll show you. Wait. I’m not talking about what to do in details – we’ll come to that.
7:09	DP: We are rather concerned is with details.
7:10	K: We’ll come to that.
7:11	DP: It’s our great concern.
7:12	K: We’ll come to that, what to do from day to day, but we must have the general picture first.
7:21	DP: We’re swamped by detail.
7:22	K: I understand, Miss Pratt, but we must have the general plan, the general outlook, general...
7:30	DP: The very fact that we’re here is our general…
7:34	K: Ah, that isn’t good enough, I’m sorry. I mean, for myself and for you, I want to find out what it is I’m here for and what I’m doing.
7:52	If I am not clear on that, I mean, adjusting the microphone, punctuality or tidiness, it’s all right, but you haven’t solved the real, central issue.
8:14	You see, this happens in every place.
8:21	The two schools in India, and other places, exactly the same thing. The central body is not clear.
8:37	What is it you want to do? Come on, sirs, what is it you want to do? Montague Simmons: I should say we want to confront this sloppiness.
8:46	K: That is a small issue, sir. It’s like a weed in the garden. Pull it out – that can be easily done. What is it, collectively, cooperatively, that we want to do here? On the large scale – not sloppiness, tidiness, not wanting to pass exams or this or that, but what is it collectively, together, we want to do?
9:16	Come on, don’t sit there… Brian Jenkins: We want to create some intelligent minds.
9:20	K: Is that what you all want to do? Eleanor Greene: But first of all I want to live in order.
9:27	K: Yes, my lady, I understand that, you want to live in order. What does that mean?
9:34	EG: Well, it means be aware of what I’m doing. I find that if I’m not aware, and I’m not a good part of the time...
9:44	K: Look, Mrs Greene, have you a general view of the whole thing?
9:51	EG: That’s what I have to keep in mind.
9:53	K: No, have you – the whole thing, not just order, sloppiness – the whole, have you a picture of the whole thing?
10:07	EG: But that’s where my order comes in, in the whole thing.
10:11	K: I understand, but you must have the picture first. It’s like a man building a house, he must have the architect draw the plans, and this is what you want, the room, the drawing room, the sitting room, so many baths, so many bedrooms – you must have the plan.
10:27	EG: But my order has to respond to the whole.
10:32	K: No, my lady, no, (laughs) you must have the whole picture and the order will come out of that.
10:37	EG: That’s what I mean by order – I mean that if in fact one sees the whole perhaps...
10:44	K: Now what is it that we see as a whole, collectively?
10:54	What to you is the collective plan? What is it to you, the thing that you want to create here? Come on, sirs.
11:14	Come on, Mrs Narayan, what is it you are here for?
11:21	You see, you become tongue-tied.
11:23	Q: Well, surely we’re back to where we were the other day.
11:27	K: I don’t know where you are.
11:28	Q: Sanity. This is what we want.
11:30	K: I don’t know. What is it you all want here? Don’t pick on a little thing.
11:38	DP: I want to create a totally new way of life, of living.
11:46	K: All right, if that is so, are you living it?
11:50	DP: No.
11:51	K: Then why do you talk about it?
11:54	DP: Because you must find out what you want. Unless you’ve got a picture... (inaudible) K: I’m asking you: what is your picture? Please, Miss Pratt, what is your picture, what is the building that you are endeavouring to put together?
12:12	What is the building? Don’t say order, sloppiness – what is the general building?
12:20	DP: It isn’t a building, it’s a... (inaudible) K: Don’t take my word building, that’s just a...
12:35	DP: No, but we have to know what we’re talking about, sir. And if you want to know what I’m trying to do, as I see it, I’m trying to discover the self, the centre, and break it down.
12:50	K: Is that what you want to create here, a centre, a place where the individual as well as the collective, the group, the community, together, are endeavouring to understand the self?
13:11	DP: Well, I can see this much, that all action which springs from myself, my self-consciousness, is expanding the me.
13:20	K: I understand that, but is that what you’re all… is this what you all want to do here?
13:28	And is this what you want the students to do?
13:33	DP: I would have thought so. Yes, I do.
13:37	K: You, Miss Pratt, think that. Does every other person think that?
13:42	DP: That’s what we’re here for.
13:45	K: Don’t say ‘we’re here for’. Here you are, ten of you, is that what you want to do?
13:51	MS: I should say Miss Pratt is limiting it to what she’s out to discover, the self.
14:03	If it’s open that here is a group of people here, trying to discover – leave it at that – then I think it’s clear what we want to do. We try to discover, whatever it is we are trying to discover, anywhere, in any aspect of life.
14:12	K: Sir, is that what each one of us want to do?
14:15	MS: In one way or another.
14:17	K: Otherwise you want to do something and I want to do something else, Laborde will, and so we’ll all be, you know, pulling in our different directions, as we are.
14:26	Q: We must see, mustn’t we, whether this want is just a thought or whether it’s…
14:33	K: No, sir. You’ve been here two years, three years, or a number of years – what is it you want?
14:39	Q: So I’m saying: is it what we want, is this just a reaction or is it something we deeply want?
14:47	K: Sir, I’m asking you: you’ve been here three years, what is it you want?
14:54	What is it you’re trying to do? Don’t at the fourth year say well, I’m trying to deeply… this is really what I want.
15:03	What is it you want deeply?
15:04	Q: I meant that I can see myself answering something which would be an idea and I can see the others coming out with ideas, and these ideas may be different, and different in different moments.
15:23	So, I see that the place can only function very well if there is some kind of perception of something beyond.
15:34	K: Look, sir, are we walking on the same road, in the same direction – some may be walking slower, some may be walking faster, but we’re all walking on the same road, in the same direction – are we?
15:49	George Carnes: Well, we all seem to have been drawn here by the same interest. We seem to have perhaps glimpsed a little of what you’re talking about, and this interest has brought us here.
15:59	EG: But we can’t rely on that because we have to get clear what we’re here for, as a group, otherwise we’re pulling against each other.
16:08	Clarity, for me, I think is one of the...
16:13	MS: It’s not enough that we just come here because we’ve all got the same idea, or think we’ve got the same idea – we then come here and say, ‘We are here, good, now let’s lean back, we needn’t do anything more.’ K: I know.
16:57	That’s why, sir, I want to be clear in myself, since you’re staff, what is it I’m trying to do here?
17:07	J Porter: Aren’t we supposed to be educators?
17:12	K: What is it you’re trying to do, Mr Porter? What is it I am here for? I see you’re not clear.
17:30	Q: No.
17:34	Q: Sir, I don’t pretend to be clear but I’m passionately interested in seeing what can be clarity.
17:47	K: Now, wait, sir – here we are, fifteen, twenty of us, whatever number – what is it each of us in our relationship with the student and in our relationship with ourselves, with each other, what is it collectively that we intend or we wish or it is our passionate desire to do?
18:16	Q: Relate in freedom.
18:23	K: Freedom? Is that what you want?
18:28	EG: I want to respond in clarity, which I meant to say – order, clarity.
18:43	If I can’t see clearly in myself then how in the world can I see clearly about what the response is to my student?
19:01	(Pause) K: You just now said, sir, intelligence.
19:18	Is that what you want to do, create, bring about intelligence in yourself and in the student so that you will respond intelligently to all the demands of life?
19:33	Is that right? Right? Is that clear? Is that what we want to do?
19:44	Intelligence means sanity, clarity, affection, love, not be self-concerned all the time – be concerned a little bit but not all the time – is that what we all want to do here, bring about such an intelligence that will function sanely, amongst ourselves and with the students?
20:17	(Pause) Well, sir?
20:21	Q: Well, I’m ready to answer yes to this question but at the same time I feel that it could be just perceived as an ideal.
20:49	K: No, no. No, I run away from all ideals. I’m not talking ideologically, I’m not talking as a principle, I’m not talking as an end. I want to live intelligently, now, not the day after tomorrow.
21:04	Q: Right?
21:05	K: So it is not an ideal. So I say now, what does this mean? I want to find out.
21:13	Q: Right? But when I was talking about the ideal it was because in everyday life most of the time the confusion between the idea and...
21:23	K: Sir, I said very clearly, I’m not talking about ideals, I’m not talking about an end to be achieved, I’m not talking of a goal to be arrived at.
21:35	That’s obvious. Now, I want to live intelligently. Right? What does it mean?
21:49	Q: I don’t quite know.
21:50	K: So, together we’re going to investigate, and when we investigate it’s not an idea, it is a fact which you’re investigating, and that very investigation makes you intelligent.
22:04	Not say, ‘Well, I’ll investigate and later become intelligent.’ The very investigative process is the process of intelligence.
22:16	Now, do you want to do that?
22:40	(Pause) So if I do, then how shall I investigate this thing which we call intelligence?
22:50	How shall I go at it? Come on, sirs, discuss with me. Here I am – I am not intelligent – let’s acknowledge the fact first. Right? I may be clever but I am not intelligent, I don’t assume anything.
23:13	So I say: now how shall I, unclear, slightly off my balance, how shall I investigate this thing?
23:30	Bearing in mind investigation is part of intelligence – not intelligence as an idea and investigating I’ll accomplish that idea.
23:46	The very process of investigation is the act of intelligence.
23:51	Q: It is almost as if the very questioning quality...
23:55	K: Sir, do you do this? Don’t verbalise it. A very simple fact: I want to investigate into the quality of a mind that is intelligent, and I see that intelligence is the act of investigation.
24:17	The investigation itself is intelligence. Not through the process of investigation I’ll become intelligent, therefore the means to an end, which is absurd.
24:39	Right? Is this clear? So I don’t know what intelligence is. I won’t presume that I am intelligent or not intelligent – I don’t know what it means.
25:04	Can we start from there, honestly, you know, not keep a little bit back?
25:25	To investigate demands that we have no prejudice.
25:35	Because then you can’t investigate, obviously.
25:43	You can’t say this is intelligence, and take your stand on that, because that is part of lack of intelligence.
25:54	So to investigate – no prejudice, no conclusion – right?
26:04	– no personal distortion. Then you are intelligent, you’ve got it!
26:20	Now are we capable of this? Which doesn’t mean you’ll cultivate it in about five years’ time – then we’re all dead!
27:07	And we have the responsibility for these students. They come here full of opinions, judgements, long hair, short hair, sloppy, ‘Who are you to tell me?’ They are already grown up old men, full of shoddy ideas.
27:31	Right? What are you going to do?
27:44	Go on, sir, it’s your… How am I as a teacher, part of this group and living communally, finding relationship with each other and so on, how shall I break down this tremendous weight they bring, the student brings.
28:09	Right? Are we meeting each other? How shall I do it? I mean, look at them.
28:32	You don’t have to tell me they’re sloppy, mentally, physically, emotionally, full of ideas, what is right and what is wrong, what they want to do, who are you to tell me.
28:58	Knowing all that, how do we deal with it? Come on, sir, please, discuss with me.
29:07	BJ: Sir, in the first place I must be clear in myself.
29:11	K: That’s what we’re doing – don’t go back to that. I said to you: are you capable of investigating what is intelligence?
29:23	We have two problems here: the you as an individual, in a collective group, a teacher, and the student.
29:39	You who say: look, what am I here for, for what reason am I here?
29:50	And I say to myself every day, I say, ‘Good lord, what have I done to deserve to live in a place like this?’ I do it, sir, you don’t know.
30:03	What have I done? With this beauty, quietness, you don’t know, the glory of the sky and all the rest of it – I say to myself, ‘My lord, what have I done to deserve this?’ And am I intelligently operating here?
30:31	So, we have these two problems.
30:39	First of all, am I capable of investigating what is intelligence?
30:46	Go on, sir, let’s discuss it. Don’t sit there, please.
30:49	Q: Then, the same question, in my relationship with the student...
30:57	K: We’ll come to that little later. Because we have these two problems – you follow? – don’t take that one without this. This is the first, because you and I are face to face – not with the student.
31:16	Do you really want to investigate into this question and put your heart and mind into it, and your body?
31:27	EG: Depending on how much we want the investigation.
31:34	K: Of course, obviously. If you’re sloppy in your investigation, you’re all sloppy, full stop.
31:38	EG: We have to question ourselves how much we want this. (Inaudible) K: I’m asking you, madame, at what depth do you want to go into this? Or you just say, ‘Well, please, I want to play along superficially and talk about intelligence.’ Then that’s quite a different matter.
32:17	(Pause) Can I put aside my personal prejudices, idiosyncrasies, peculiar, dogmatic pursuit of some pleasure or some kink?
32:45	Can I put all those aside? First of all, do I know I have kinks? I’m terribly concerned about my sexual life – I’m taking that – and that becomes my – you follow?
33:07	And how can I, with that, you know, interest, investigate?
33:14	DP: It’s very difficult to discover one’s own kink, really, isn’t it?
33:27	K: We’re doing it now.
33:30	DP: We’re trying, but... (inaudible) K: Ah, not trying. I don’t want to try these things. I haven’t time.
33:36	DP: Well, other people see our kinks pretty clearly.
33:39	K: I don’t know, I want to look at myself, I want to see if I’ve got a prejudice, a kink, a drive which...
33:45	DP: How can I know?
33:47	K: Look at it, put it. I’ll tell you how to. If you really want to find out, we’ll go into it. Do you want to?
33:56	DP: I do want to find out and I’m sure everybody does.
34:00	K: Don’t be sure for others.
34:01	DP: I’m sure for myself.
34:02	K: That’s all you can say.
34:04	DP: Surely others can speak up – don’t they want to find out?
34:13	K: There are all those people, they don’t say a word.
34:16	BJ: Yes, I want to find out.
34:19	K: How do you go about it, sir? I want to find out if I have a prejudice. Let’s begin with a small thing. You have prejudices, haven’t you?
34:30	Q: Yes.
34:31	K: Why? Why do you hold onto them? You want me to operate, or you want to play with me?
34:42	BJ: No, I want you to operate.
34:47	K: Then I will. Sir, don’t be – you follow? You know, I’m 77, I’ve been doing this for the last – and I’m coming to the end of my life – you understand? – and I want to be serious.
35:02	So if you want to be operated, why have you got prejudices? You have them. Why? Why do you hold onto them? What’s the point of it?
35:13	DP: Because I’m unaware of them.
35:16	K: No, no. He knows it. I’m talking to Roy Jenkins. Not Roy Jenkins, that’s the other bird. Sorry! Perhaps you’d like to be identified with Roy Jenkins, I don’t know.
35:37	(Laughter) Now, you know you have prejudices?
35:47	Why? Go into it, sir, watch it.
35:57	Why have you got them?
36:04	What’s the point of them? (Pause) Prejudices. Come on, sir. Go on. You see, I can’t operate if you don’t work. (Laughs) BJ: Well I see all the parrot answers coming up, sir – insecurity, all the rest of it.
36:16	K: Yes. All right. Be insecure. What is wrong? Millions of people are insecure, including myself. (Laughs) You see, you don’t go at it really hard.
36:34	First of all, for me, to have a prejudice means I can’t see clearly, I can’t think clearly, objectively, sanely.
37:03	And the world is so insane and I say, ‘Look, I don’t want to play a part in all this rubbish,’ so it is my deep, passionate interest to be sane.
37:16	And I can’t be sane if I have prejudice. Now I’m going to find out, if I have a prejudice, why I’ve got it.
37:30	Why? Prejudice doesn’t give me security; on the contrary.
37:39	Does it give me any vitality, any strength, any sense of assertive drive for power, position, you know, all the rest of it – does it give me energy?
37:58	Go on, investigate.
38:01	BJ: It saps energy.
38:04	K: Therefore I won’t have it. It’s finished. Once I see it, it’s over.
38:22	If I see really it saps energy, it prevents clarity, it is a wastage of objective – you can’t investigate – I see all this very clearly, as I see a danger, the danger of anything – finished.
38:46	I won’t even go back to it, I can’t. Once you see something, it’s finished. Is that so with you?
39:03	(Pause) Go on, sirs, discuss this.
39:25	BJ: So surely I can’t find out until I leave this room and...
39:35	K: Oh yes you can. You’ve got prejudices, haven’t you?
39:38	BJ: Yes.
39:39	K: Then put it out on the table, on the floor, look at it, go through it quickly.
39:49	Sorry to drive you, but I said... (laughs) DP: What is a prejudice? Is it that I don’t like long hair in the students?
39:59	K: Find out. Prejudice. To prejudge something, isn’t it, prejudice?
40:08	The incapacity to look at things as they are – to see that I am a silly ass.
40:22	DP: But how?
40:23	K: What do you mean, how?
40:24	DP: If I’m a silly ass, I’d like to really see it.
40:25	K: I see it.
40:26	DP: Yes. But I can call myself a silly ass...
40:31	K: No, I see it. I don’t call myself, I...
40:34	DP: But how is one to see oneself as a silly ass?
40:37	K: That means – I’m telling you – if I have a prejudice, to judge something previously, according to an idea which I have, a formula, my conditioning, is a prejudice.
40:56	And that prevents me, prevents my relationship with you, that prevents clarity, I’m acting according to a pattern – which is all so childish, immature, and I refuse to function that way.
41:11	DP: Of course, I can’t see easily that I’m a silly ass, but I can see very clearly that other people are.
41:23	I suppose that’s prejudice.
41:25	K: Wait, wait, wait, I’m not concerned about other people now – I’m investigating into my prejudice.
41:33	I’m not concerned about Laborde or you or somebody else. I say: look, am I prejudiced, have I prejudices? Obviously one has.
41:44	DP: But it isn’t so obvious, sir. It is not so obvious.
41:49	K: Then, all right, I’ll make it clear. Have you prejudices, Miss Pratt?
41:53	DP: I would like to know.
41:56	K: I can’t tell you.
41:58	DP: When I say: is it a prejudice that there are things I can’t stand?
42:00	K: Wait. I said – not stand – we said prejudice. That you can’t stand something – why can’t you stand something? Because I’m sloppy?
42:10	DP: Yes.
42:11	K: You can’t stand me because I’m sloppy. Why? Why can’t you stand me? Because you have an idea...
42:19	DP: A feeling.
42:20	K: ... a feeling, whatever it is – you have an idea, a feeling, a sense of order, and you say I’m a sloppy man.
42:32	DP: Yes.
42:34	K: In that way, what happens? You haven’t found out why I’m sloppy.
42:40	DP: I realise that.
42:42	K: You haven’t found out that for whatever reason I am sloppy. You are just stating a fact according to your prejudice.
42:52	DP: Yes, and condemning it.
42:54	K: Condemning. I say that is prejudice.
42:56	DP: Yes. Well, that’s the crux of it.
42:58	K: Wait, wait. Wait – go slowly, step by step. And you want to establish a relationship with me which is not based on prejudice. Right?
43:07	DP: Yes.
43:08	K: So you have to remove your… I may have my prejudice. But you who want to establish a relationship with me, you have to clear that prejudice.
43:21	So can you look at me – sloppy, dirty, untidy, full of this and that – can you look at me without your prejudices?
43:39	(Pause) Q: Sir?
43:52	I think for me it is very related to my fear of what might happen after, that I might get hurt.
44:53	K: Ah, no. We’re talking of prejudice. You’re going off to something else, which is fear. What has prejudice got to do with fear?
45:02	Q: Maybe…
45:03	K: I’m prejudiced – I don’t like long dresses, I don’t like these coloured shirts.
45:15	(Pause) I see you haven’t gone into this at all.
45:25	EG: Any personal opinion is a prejudice.
45:32	K: Obviously.
45:34	DP: We’re full of them.
45:37	K: What I think of Nixon – who the hell cares what I think of Nixon?
45:41	EG: We’re full of it. These are the prejudices that keep us...
45:46	K: Or Heath or Mr Brezhnev? I don’t know them and they don’t know me. And what I know of them is what I read in the papers, which may be totally wrong.
45:58	So I read, I read various papers – you follow?
46:07	– I don’t form a conclusion, say this is black and this is white.
46:13	EG: But I think that’s where my energy goes. If I’m not aware, I’ve formed a personal prejudice and voiced it and acted on it.
46:25	K: Of course. So in investigating intelligence, I discover that it is an unintelligent act to have any kind of prejudice.
46:38	I’ve discovered it – you understand? – it’s real, not an idea. So I don’t have it – finished.
46:52	And I say next – you follow? – I move, I don’t say, ‘My God, how am I going to sit here and investigate?’ I know I have prejudices.
47:00	BJ: Sir, it seems very difficult to distinguish between prejudice and fact.
47:18	I mean, you may look at somebody and every time you see that...
47:20	K: Fact. Sir, what is fact? That I come downstairs without a bath, not combed hair, dirty feet.
47:32	Full stop. That’s a fact, isn’t it. I haven’t bathed, not combed my hair, my hands are not clean. That’s a fact. Why bring your prejudices against it?
47:48	BJ: But, sir, isn’t it prejudice when every time you see that person...
47:52	K: No, wait, just see the fact – that I don’t wash, that I eat sloppily – that’s a fact.
48:06	I don’t sit straight in a chair. Why should you bring your prejudices into it? So if you can live with the fact – you follow? – see the fact, then what is your action with regard to me?
48:29	You follow? Because you’re responsible, you’re in a community, you’re a teacher, we’re all together in this – what is your responsibility, dealing with a fact?
48:40	EG: I want to understand.
48:43	K: Wait! No, first see the question. Please see it. What is your responsibility? Which means to respond – responsibility is to respond, with the fact, not with your prejudice, with the fact that I am this.
49:04	How do you respond to me?
49:06	EG: (Inaudible) K: Wait! No, find out. Before you say why, what is your response to a fact?
49:20	To the fact that I’m dirty. Shakuntala Narayan: You’ve got to see the fact.
49:27	K: You have seen the fact. I don’t comb my hair, my hands are dirty, I smell. That’s a fact, that’s not a prejudice. I don’t smell like the roses or the jasmine, and I stink. That’s a fact. How will you respond to the fact?
49:48	BJ: Point it out.
49:51	K: How do you respond? Not what you do with me. Oh good lord!
49:56	Q: My first response is a prejudice, a very strong prejudice.
50:00	K: So you’re still in the field of prejudice. So you haven’t moved from there.
50:06	Q: I don’t know how to move.
50:10	K: I’ve told you. A prejudice. We are investigating prejudice. In the very investigation of a prejudice you are investigating intelligence.
50:28	Right? Right? So through the investigation of a prejudice you’re investigating intelligence, not prejudice.
50:41	Oh, for the love of Pete, come on, sirs! Where are you all? Look, I am prejudiced.
50:58	I think Nixon is a blasted charlatan. I don’t know anything about him. Why do I have an opinion about it? I look at the facts and facts show that he is doing all these things, partly for electioneering purposes, etc.
51:24	Facts. Why do I bring in my prejudices against the poor chap? The facts themselves reveal what he is – I don’t have to have an opinion. Are you following?
51:37	DP: Yes, but we’re not concerned with Nixon, we are concerned with the student.
51:44	K: Wait, wait. Wait. It’s the same thing! Nixon or the boys are the same thing. They come here full of prejudices, opinions, judgements, you are right, I am wrong, long hair is right, why should I not play a guitar, I don’t want to pass exams – they are all full of all that.
52:08	Those are the facts. Right? Now how do I look at it and how shall I deal with the fact?
52:22	Without bringing in my prejudice. Because I have no prejudice. That’s just it.
52:30	Q: Stay with the fact.
52:33	K: How will you deal with it.
52:36	EG: Well if you don’t have prejudice then...
52:48	K: Please listen carefully.
52:50	EG: You see the prejudice.
52:51	K: I’ve seen the prejudice. I look at you and say, ‘How filthy he is.’ I’ve told him ten times and it goes on.
53:04	I am filthy, stinking, dirty, sloppy. Before, you looked at me with your prejudices – right? – and in investigating your prejudice you have seen what intelligence is, to look at things, at facts, without prejudice.
53:29	Right? (Laughs) EG: That would be terrific in itself.
53:37	K: That’s what we’re doing.
53:39	DP: That would lead to love.
53:40	K: I don’t know.
53:42	DP: But it would be so.
53:44	K: You see, you’re already prejudiced.
53:48	DP: I don’t know.
53:52	K: You see, you haven’t investigated prejudice and you’ve already introduced a word called love.
54:00	I don’t know anything about it. All I know is I’m prejudiced. Stick to that one thing. And I meet a student, I meet you, and I say, ‘Well, my God, I’m living with people who are so unintelligent.
54:16	I’m leaving, I’ll run away.’ I don’t do that, I say, ‘Look, I see what prejudice does, divides’ – right?
54:30	– divides people, prejudice does. No?
54:34	EG: It creates a terrible resistance.
54:38	K: Now, so, I see that, and I see it is utterly stupid to have prejudice and therefore it is an act of unintelligence.
54:56	I see that, I realise it, to me that is my breath.
55:04	And I meet my student and I see the fact that he is sloppy, dirty, careless, indifferent, callous, impolite, everything.
55:16	Now how shall I deal with that fact? Ingrid Porter: Well, you don’t condemn it. (Inaudible) K: I don’t know what to do. I don’t know, I’m asking you how you deal with that fact. Don’t tell me you condemn it, because when you say, ‘I don’t condemn it,’ you’re still in a state of prejudice.
55:41	IP: You just look at him, dirty as he is, and find out why.
55:44	K: I’m asking you: how do you act?
55:47	EG: Can I know? I can know my prejudice.
55:52	K: My darling lady, I’ve said that. We’re beyond that. I’ve said I see very clearly prejudice divides people – right?
56:06	– whether it’s communist prejudice, Catholic prejudice, or any other prejudice, it divides people.
56:14	Right? Now I see the truth of it – you understand? – not just the words of it; the truth of it and it’s burnt it out of me. I’m no longer prejudiced.
56:30	GC: You point out from your understanding.
56:38	K: To who?
56:39	GC: To the student.
56:41	K: I’m not interested. Sir, I want to act with the fact. How am I to act?
56:48	GC: Well you will know at the time.
56:50	K: Please tell me, what am I to do with a student who is indifferent, callous, impolite, dirty, full of prejudices?
57:07	You’ve seen them – what shall I do? Those are facts, not my imagination. How shall I, who have understood what prejudice is, what it does, and I see the truth of it and I no longer – I’ve burnt it out of my heart, this prejudice – so how do I deal with that?
57:32	Q: The thing is that the prejudice is not quite burnt out.
57:41	K: Ah no, come on, sir. I mean, we’re old enough now, we can’t go on playing with this game.
57:50	Then you’re not investigating intelligence, you’re sitting on the sides and playing with the idea of intelligence.
58:00	EG: You meet the facts directly.
58:06	K: You’re not answering my question. Correctly, incorrectly, don’t condemn, condemn – how do you meet me who am sloppy?
58:20	Q: All right, I meet you sloppy, you are sloppy.
58:21	K: And then what?
58:22	Q: I do nothing about it.
58:26	K: What do you mean? Q. If I’m sloppy I see sloppiness in myself. If you’re sloppy, you’re sloppy.
58:33	K: Yes, sir, but we said just now – lord, don’t let me go back – I just now said to you if you are prejudiced are you acting from prejudice when you say I’m sloppy, or are you merely seeing the fact that I’m sloppy?
58:54	Don’t you see the difference between the two?
59:10	Do you look at me with your prejudices of what sloppiness is or is not – do you look through those eyes at me, or do you look at me as a fact?
59:26	Come on, sir.
59:29	Q: Try to look at you as a fact.
59:39	K: Now what is your action?
59:42	Q: Nothing.
59:43	K: What?
59:45	Q: We’re looking.
59:46	K: You’re looking at me. I’m sloppy. Go on, sir, step by step. You look at me.
59:52	Q: Yes, that’s enough, isn’t it?
59:57	K: What happens then? You just look at me – what’s the point of it?
1:00:03	BJ: There’s no education.
1:00:04	K: You’re educating me, you’re responsible for me. You can’t just say, ‘Well I’ve looked at the fact that you’re sloppy,’ and just leave me alone.
1:00:15	SN: The looking will bring its own actions.
1:00:18	K: What is your action?
1:00:19	EG: One’s action is to point it out without prejudice, the facts.
1:00:34	K: Is that it?
1:00:35	Q: Can we say now abstractly what our action will be when we look?
1:00:36	K: My dear chap, you’re meeting these birds every day.
1:00:37	Q: Well I’m not meeting them here, now though. Well it’s an abstraction if I try to say...
1:00:43	K: All right. I’ve come down in my sandals where I should have come down in my shoes. It’s a prejudice. For goodness sake, don’t...
1:00:52	EG: There’s direct action and then there’s prejudice. If it’s prejudice the person will respond in...
1:01:01	K: Mrs Green, do please… Here I am. I’ve investigated my prejudice and in the investigation of it my mind has seen what intelligence is.
1:01:17	Right? Intelligence says to me… intelligence is a state of mind in which division as prejudice – there are other forms, I’m taking prejudice – division as prejudice is burnt out of me.
1:01:38	If it is not burnt out, I’m stupid, I’m not capable of investigating intelligence, so I’ll react according to my prejudice when I see long hair, dirt and all the rest of it.
1:02:04	So what shall I do? It’s really very interesting. What shall I do when I meet squalor, mentally, emotionally, physically?
1:02:20	The fact is that. You understand? What shall I do? And I’m here to be educated. If I meet a sloppy man in a bus I just look at him and say, ‘I’m sorry you’re dirty.’ I don’t say that to him, he’ll kick me in the face.
1:02:43	‘I’m sorry.’ I look. Here I have to do something, I can’t just look. I have to act. What’s my action?
1:02:55	BJ: There must be an action of concern, real concern.
1:03:00	K: What is your action? Don’t say must. You see how you’re still thinking in terms of must.
1:03:12	EG: I want to know why, what makes him...
1:03:27	K: What makes me sloppy? Because my mother, my father, my group, are sloppy.
1:03:35	EG: Talk it over with him.
1:03:39	K: My mother never said to me, ‘For God’s sake wash.’ They don’t care.
1:03:49	They haven’t the time or the energy to say, ‘Look, please wash.’ I met somebody the other day who told me a man came to apply for a job in his office, and he looked at him, he said, ‘You’re dirty, smelly, go and wash.’ So the man went and had his hair cut, washed and he said, ‘You know, sir, I’ve never been told.’ EG: That’s true with these...
1:04:24	K: Wait. ‘I’ve never been told.’ And most of the children are like that – they’ve never been told.
1:04:35	They put up with everything.
1:04:39	BJ: Sir, we went to Wales and they went to bed with their clothes on.
1:04:47	K: Sir, don’t tell me these things. So how shall I act now? You follow my question, sir? How shall I? I really mean it, without prejudice, because that is a deadly thing. To me it is poison. Now when I meet a fact for which I am responsible, you know, as a teacher, as a group – how shall I act there?
1:05:15	Don’t say don’t condemn – I must act.
1:05:22	What is my action? Come on Mrs Narayan, put your mind into it. What’s my action? (Pause) Are you stuck?
1:05:33	BJ: Surely, sir, my action is to persuade the child the need to wash.
1:06:09	K: Yes. How will you?
1:06:11	JP: Explain the necessity.
1:06:13	K: Yes, all right, you explain. And I don’t do it. You’ve seen them, sir. How many times Mrs Simmons has told them or you have told them – you follow? – what will you do with the fact?
1:06:26	IP: But surely they don’t do it when it’s being pointed out, because they haven’t seen the fact.
1:06:32	K: So what are you trying to do?
1:06:37	IP: I’m trying to get them to see it as clearly as I can see.
1:06:51	K: Which is what? That their prejudice is separating them from you.
1:07:01	Right? And they don’t care. (Inaudible) You follow, sir, what I am saying? It is their prejudice, their disorderliness that is bringing a division between them and me, because I know, clear, that I have no prejudice, it is burnt out of me.
1:07:32	So it is they that bring the division, so I have to deal with the division.
1:07:40	Now how shall I deal with that division?
1:07:43	Q: Excuse me, sir, but I would like to suggest to put it rather that both sides are responsible for the division, perhaps different extents, namely, that the prejudice is not only on the side of the student.
1:08:04	K: No, sir, I said… Please, sir, I said in investigating what is intelligence I have found that prejudice is not intelligence.
1:08:14	Q: Yes.
1:08:15	K: Wait. In me. And it has gone out of me, I don’t play with it.
1:08:20	Q: Yes, I see that, but to its utmost extent it is… I mean, it’s still there.
1:08:28	K: Oh, no.
1:08:29	EG: No, no.
1:08:31	K: If it is there, I’ll pick it up tomorrow and burn it out. My intention, my drive, my energy is concerned with removing totally prejudice, because it is an unintelligent state of mind.
1:08:51	And I have come to that through the investigation of intelligence, not prejudice.
1:09:00	You see the difference? Because now my mind is intelligent. I can deal with prejudice. I don’t know if you follow this.
1:09:10	EG: You can deal with it.
1:09:11	K: I’m dealing with it now.
1:09:12	Q: Right. Well then the child...
1:09:14	K: Wait, I’m not talking of the child. Please don’t go off to the child – I’m dealing with my prejudice – right? – and I’ve burnt it out because intelligence is operating.
1:09:32	And that was my intention in investigating what is intelligence. And I see prejudice is unintelligent. And I see it totally. Tomorrow I may be unintelligent and I burn it again. I don’t spend years burning out – you follow? – I haven’t time. Now I come to that: I have no prejudice and I meet boys and girls who are full of prejudice.
1:10:08	How shall I deal with them? And I must, because their parents have sent them here and I’m responsible.
1:10:22	I can’t say, ‘Well, I’ll just look, or let them do what they like, I’m frightened to deal with them.’ It’s my responsibility.
1:10:31	I’m sorry to...
1:10:32	EG: But if I don’t have prejudice I deal with the fact directly.
1:10:43	K: Now how do you deal with it?
1:10:46	EG: By pointing the fact out.
1:10:49	K: Wait, I’m going to... Please go slowly into this. How shall I deal with this? It is something new, isn’t it? So you can’t find an answer immediately, say, ‘I will, I won’t this, I won’t that.
1:11:08	It’s something new, which is, for the first time you say, ‘By Jove, I see what intelligence is.’ And intelligence means lack of prejudice, freedom from prejudice.
1:11:28	And these students are full of that. Now what is my relationship with them?
1:11:37	EG: I have a direct one.
1:11:40	K: I haven’t got it! Ma que, senora!
1:11:44	EG: If.
1:11:45	K: I haven’t got it, because they are prejudiced. How can I have a relationship with something which is unintelligent? I can only have relationship with something that is intelligent!
1:11:57	EG: Yes, I see that.
1:12:00	K: Therefore I have no relationship. I have to establish a relationship with them.
1:12:09	So I say: by Jove, they are creating the division, not I. Right? Now how am I to help them to remove that division? They are creating, not I. You follow? Now how am I to deal with it? Because it’s the first time I’ve discovered something new, which is, I thought I was creating the division, I thought I was loving them, all the rest of it, and I suddenly find I’m very clear, and they’re not.
1:12:50	How shall I educate, etc., etc. – different words – educate, point out, help them to see for themselves, all that – the word education implies all that – how shall I help them to do that?
1:13:21	You understand what you are now? You are a flame. You follow?
1:13:34	And you look at them and they come to you, you’re responsible – how do you deal with it?
1:13:42	How do you establish a relationship with a person who has enclosed himself in a prejudice?
1:13:54	(Pause) Come on, sir, how do you deal with me?
1:14:08	I’ve enclosed myself in my prejudice. I’m one of the students – long hair, short, all the rest of it – how do you deal with me?
1:14:19	BJ: You point out the limitation of that prejudice.
1:14:22	K: Sir, I don’t understand what you’re talking about.
1:14:29	I don’t even listen to you.
1:14:32	EG: If we can both investigate newly.
1:14:37	K: Look, Mrs Simmons sent that boy, Raja, out yesterday because he refused to take examinations.
1:14:45	He came here on a half scholarship, promising that he would take them – you follow? – all the rest of it, and suddenly he makes up his mind that he’s not going to do it.
1:14:57	It’s a dishonest act. You follow? He’s living on – what is it? – he came here on a scholarship, using somebody’s money, and he says, ‘My opinion is I should not take examinations.’ And we talked about it and I said, ‘For God’s…’ and he went.
1:15:25	I don’t know what’s going to happen but he went yesterday. Now, what is an intelligent man to do with a man, with a prejudiced boy – you follow?
1:15:35	– who says, ‘I am right’?
1:15:36	EG: Just that. I mean... Dorothy Simmons: You’ll just have to close the school.
1:15:39	K: You’d have to close the school if all of them are like that. Thank God they are all not.
1:15:50	EG: They aren’t all that bad.
1:15:55	K: So how shall we deal with it, sir? You’re not helping me or helping each other – I’m putting this thing to you and you don’t tell me what to do.
1:16:11	Q: With each particular case you would be prejudiced if you assumed that that case was prejudiced and so you discover each instance is a different discovery, a new discovery.
1:16:36	K: Yes, sir, I understand that.
1:16:37	Q: In that state of discovery, aren’t you yourself different and doesn’t that bring about...
1:16:44	K: That’s perfectly right, sir, but what are you going to do with me who is sloppy?
1:16:52	How will you deal with me? You’re in the same room.
1:16:57	Q: What I am saying is that I hope that this state of discovery would bring the new factor which will solve...
1:17:08	K: Haven’t you got the new factor?
1:17:14	EG: I’m afraid we haven’t had, as a group.
1:17:21	K: Or as individuals, have you got it?
1:17:26	EG: Or as individuals.
1:17:27	K: If not, why not? We’re old enough to apply our minds. We’ve got enough energy to say, ‘Look, for God’s sake, I’m not going to live with poison, it’s unhealthy, stupid,’ all the rest of it.
1:17:42	Look, sir, what’s happening in the world – India fights Pakistan. They’re prejudiced. It’s nothing but prejudice – Catholic, Protestant – well, I won’t go into all that.
1:18:08	Can we collectively – not only individual – collectively see this?
1:18:15	Do we see collectively this? So that each one acts, not say, ‘Well, leave it all to Mrs Simmons,’ and I sit back and not support her.
1:18:33	You follow? Together we are in this boat.
1:18:35	EG: It seems to me that before we can deal with the students we as a group...
1:18:45	K: I’m asking you, madame!
1:18:47	EG: But our problem is that we see prejudice in each other and we don’t even act on it. I mean, leave alone in the students.
1:18:57	K: Please, how will you deal with me, one of your colleagues, who is prejudiced?
1:19:05	(Laughs) How will you deal with me? It’s your responsibility, I’m in your community.
1:19:16	Come on, Mrs Narayan, how will you deal with me? It’s your job, you are responsible, you can’t just sit back and do something – you are responsible towards me and what will you do?
1:19:34	Oh!
1:19:35	EG: The clarity of seeing prejudice.
1:19:39	K: Yes. Have you seen it?
1:19:42	EG: Well if I have seen it...
1:19:44	K: Not if.
1:19:45	EG: No, I’ve seen it so I can point it out.
1:19:47	K: I have no time for ifs.
1:19:49	EG: No, that’s correct. I agree.
1:19:51	K: I have a frightful disease. I say, ‘I wish I hadn’t it.’ I’ve got it!
1:19:55	EG: That would be terrific. That is terrific, when we see it.
1:20:24	(Pause) K: You see, I know what I would do, but I don’t want to tell you.
1:20:47	Because you are going to deal with it; I’m off at the end of this month.
1:20:56	(Pause) This is creativeness, sir.
1:21:12	We can create this thing together.
1:21:20	Which means each one of us has to take part, not you three sit quiet and look.
1:21:26	EG: If I don’t have prejudice I can deal directly with the facts.
1:21:36	K: Now you may, but what about the rest?
1:21:44	If you deal with the fact only and I come along as one of your colleagues with my prejudices, what’s going to happen to the student?
1:21:56	You follow?
1:22:03	I can disregard you or you can disregard me but the student is here under your responsibility, your care.
1:22:12	You’re educating him, therefore you are responsible.
1:22:26	Do we collectively feel the responsibility for this? You know, they used to take a vow, oath, because they were so scared of Jesus or heaven or hell.
1:22:48	Now we don’t. Come on, sirs, you haven’t answered my question at all.
1:23:07	GC: Well we’ll have to work at it from morning to night.
1:23:10	K: Here you have worked at it for an hour and 25 minutes. Sorry to bully you. I’m not bullying you.
1:23:18	BJ: Apparently we don’t, because a number of members of staff don’t like filling in reports.
1:23:27	K: Why?
1:23:28	BJ: I do it.
1:23:29	K: Why don’t they like it?
1:23:30	BJ: Because they’re frightened of the student, frightened of the student disliking them for something they might write.
1:23:37	K: What are they, ninnies or what?
1:23:39	DP: Or they may be frightened that their judgements are only momentary and the students are many things. They are afraid to pin the student down.
1:23:46	K: I want to know as a parent what my son is doing here. I’ve a right to know.
1:23:53	DP: But I’m afraid to tell you your son is lazy because he’s not always lazy.
1:23:58	K: No, but say occasionally he’s lazy. I mean, be accurate. What’s wrong with it? I am the father – what right have you to keep secrets from me? What is the matter?
1:24:10	EG: But you see, if we haven’t the prejudice then we will act on the facts, quite simply.
1:24:18	K: That’s all I’m saying. I want facts about my son.
1:24:23	Q: (Inaudible) K: That he’s lazy, he’s dirty. I want the facts, not what you think. He got 25 marks or whatever it is in Latin, and nothing in mathematics.
1:24:37	DP: We’re afraid even to give him his marks, though.
1:24:41	K: Why?
1:24:42	DP: Because he might do better next time.
1:24:45	K: I say, ‘Sorry…’ Miss Pratt, what’s the matter with you? I’m his father, mother, I want to know what he’s doing in the school. What right have you to keep it from me, when I give you all the money, all the support? You say, ‘Well, I won’t because I’m frightened of my…’ Bananas!
1:25:06	BJ: Sir, I think in some cases it maybe the parents are particularly difficult people and could use the report...
1:25:14	K: Therefore I have to...
1:25:16	BJ: But then Mrs Simmons can use her discretion.
1:25:19	DP: She’ll look after that.
1:25:22	K: What are we frightened about? I had this out in California, with the school. They said no reports, we will all – etc., etc. And I said, ‘Look, sit down.’ We went into it with the staff.
1:25:42	The parent sent you my child. For whom are you responsible – to your fears or to me? You don’t have to show the report to the student.
1:26:07	You report according to the idiotic parent. (Laughs) He might beat the boy up when he goes home, so you.
1:26:20	I said – this is exactly it – we are investigating intelligence, and if you’re not intelligent everything goes wrong.
1:26:30	Are you frightened of making a report?
1:26:35	Q: No, sir.
1:26:39	K: Who is frightened here?
1:26:46	Sorry! (Laughs) Q: I’m sorry.
1:26:53	K: Are you a member of the staff, sir?
1:27:00	Do you teach here?
1:27:02	Q: No, sir. I don’t know – what is the staff?
1:27:08	K: What do you mean, what is the staff? Do you teach? Are you responsible for making a report? Are you responsible for their conduct? Are you responsible for their behaviour? Do you play a part in that? I’m not trying to prevent you from telling me, but are you also responsible as a group?
1:27:39	That means you take responsibility, not only look after the garden or painting, but for the student.
1:27:49	Sir, what I’m trying to say is: we must create this thing together.
1:27:58	Not Mrs Simmons or Mr Simmons or I – we have to do it together.
1:28:05	We’re in the same boat. For God’s sake! You know, sir, I was talking to a captain of submarine.
1:28:17	A marvellous submarine, it was. I looked at it outside, I didn’t go in. And he said, ‘You know…’ It struck me then: every member of that crew was responsible for everything, because the captain may die, heart attack, somebody may go blind, somebody may go mad.
1:28:47	You follow? You’re in that position, because the world is mad.
1:28:58	If you feel you’re totally responsible for everything – my God, sir!
1:29:06	I feel that way, you see, that’s why I burn with it all. It’s half past one. We’ve talked an hour and a half.
1:29:22	Isn’t that enough? I’ve talked, rather. Now, sir, please, let’s get this one thing clear: in investigating intelligence we come upon prejudice and we see prejudice is a totally unintelligent state.
1:29:40	Therefore a man who is investigating intelligence, wipes that out.
1:29:56	As a boy I saw organised religions are crooked. And I was the head of a tremendous organisation. I said, ‘Wipe it out.’ I didn’t say, ‘My God, what’s going to happen to me, where shall I speak, who’s going to feed me, I’m frightened, where shall I live?’ None of those things.
1:30:17	I’m not saying I’m a hero – you understand? – then my halo would be too tight for my head, I’ll have a headache!
1:30:31	That’s what I mean, if you see something – burn with it.