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BR75DSS1.01 - Freedom to learn
Brockwood Park, UK - 5 May 1975
Discussion with Staff and Students 1.01



0:00 This is J. Krishnamurti’s first discussion with teachers and students at Brockwood Park, 1975.
0:11 Krishnamurti: You’re all very solemn. (Pause) I wonder if you could talk about something that would really interest you, something that would reveal your own thinking, your own feelings, what you want to do, what your lifestyle—if I can use that word without being called a square—what it’s going to be.
1:20 Could we talk about what really interests you, what you feel that we can talk over together?
1:37 Since I last met you—not in this lovely hall (I hope you like this hall, don’t you?
1:49 Very nice, isn’t it?)—I’ve been to India, Delhi, Rajghat, which is the school there, near Benares, then to Madras, Rishi Valley, Bangalore, Bombay, and then came here for a few days and then went on to California.
2:21 And I’ve just come from a dialogue with about twenty-five to thirty psychiatrists, analysts, which was very interesting, from New York.
2:41 And they were all supposed to be all doctors and very serious and with great many victims or patients, capable, have gone into things very... so-called very deeply, and it was very interesting to talk to... to have a dialogue with them two mornings last week.
3:14 And now here we are. So what would interest you most to talk about? Questioner: I think we should talk about the school here.
3:26 K: Right. You want to talk about the school here? (Your father sent you his greetings.) What would you like to talk about the school here?
3:50 Q: It would be very interesting to know what is the school’s aim.
3:58 It’s something that...
3:59 K: What is the aim of the school—is that what you want to know?
4:06 Is that what you want to discuss, talk over, all of you?
4:22 What do you think should be the aim of the school? Because you are the school. I’m not turning the tables on to you, but what do you think should be the aim of the school?
4:37 Of this school. We’ve just come, Mrs Zimbalist and I, from California, where we talked about the school there.
4:50 We’re going to have a school there at Ojai near Santa Barbara, near Ventura, near Los Angeles.
5:00 And we, in talking over together with the man who is going to be in charge of it and with the others, we asked also what should be the aim of a school.
5:15 Should there be an aim for a school? You follow? What do you think—you, who are the students and who are the learners—what do you think should be the aim of a school?
5:38 Should it have an aim at all? Which doesn’t mean drift along.
5:48 Aim means a target, a purpose, a goal, something towards which you are going.
6:03 And generally some schools have a definite objective, definite purpose for which they exist.
6:18 Now, do you want a purpose, do you want an aim, a goal in this school for yourselves?
6:35 Come on, sirs, talk it over.
6:42 Q: It seems the school already has an aim because there was a reason for it to be built.
6:50 K: I know what the reason was—I’ll tell you—but I’m asking you. Don’t turn the tables on to me—I’m very good at that kind of thing!
7:02 What is it you want the school... Should this school where you are have an aim? Do you want an aim? Do you know what the implications of that are? If you have an aim, you are forced to conform to that pattern.
7:25 Right? You understand what I’m saying? If you have an objective, then you are pushed or cleverly manipulated or goaded, rewarded or punished to go towards that goal.
7:48 It’s like having that door and everybody must be pushed through that door.
7:55 That’s the intention, the purpose of a goal. Do you think such a... you should have such a purpose?
8:04 Q: No.
8:06 K: No, don’t so quickly answer it.
8:14 Think it over. Let’s go into it.
8:22 Q: I don’t think everybody should pushed through that door but everybody must be made to be seen to go through that door.
8:26 K: Wait. I make you see a goal, a purpose. I persuade you, I talk to you, I coerce you, I reward you, I punish you, I encourage you.
8:41 What is a school? Let’s begin that way, shall we? What is a school? If I’m not mistaken, the word, from Latin, means a place where you learn.
9:02 Please bear that in mind: a place where you learn. That is a school. Right? There, in an ordinary school, learning means acquiring knowledge about history, geography—you know, all the rest of it—right?—where you are learning subjects, curriculum, aggregate of various subjects so that you are capable of meeting the modern world.
9:55 Right? Are you following all this? Does it interest you, all this? It’s your life, anyhow. So a school is a place where you learn.
10:10 Are you learning here?
10:12 Q: Yes.
10:15 K: What are you learning? If that is the purpose of a school—that is, where we are learning—that’s all.
10:39 You understand what I’m talking about? Where we are learning. And you can learn in a place that is happy, that there is a feeling of seriousness, a feeling that you’re welcome, a feeling that you are happy there—right?—a serious place, a place that’s conducive, that helps you to be happy and helps you to have freedom.
11:25 Freedom, because you can only learn where there is freedom. Right? I wonder if you understand what I’m talking about.
11:40 If I coerce you, you are not free. So we have to go into this problem of learning, freedom, and a place where there is a feeling of helping you or guiding each other to learn to be happy.
12:08 Right? That’s what the school means, at least to me: a place where you learn, a place which is conducive, which is helpful for your freedom, for your happiness.
12:40 Now, are you learning or are you merely resisting learning?
12:52 Go on, sir, discuss with me. You may not want to learn, you want to slip through life, take it easy, become lazy, and you say, ‘Well, I’m here to learn but I really don’t want to learn.’ Learn about subjects as well as learn about life—right?—as well as learn about yourself, your relationship with another.
13:30 All that is implied in a school. If you say that is the purpose of a school—to learn—then that’s a purpose.
13:46 Come on, sirs, dialogue.
13:54 Are you learning here? Be terribly honest.
14:06 Learning mathematics, geography, history, biology, physics and all the rest of that; learning about your relationship with another, because that’s what you’re going to face in the world.
14:25 Learning about your mind, whether you’re thinking, whether you’re lazy, whether you’re sluggish, whether you’re, you know, frightened—all the rest of it.
14:38 That’s the first thing. Second, is the place conducive, helpful for you to be happy?
14:53 Not happy, what you think is happiness. I may think I am happy when I’m drinking, or I may be...
15:06 I think I may be happy when everybody lets me alone. Or I may be... I may think I’m happy when I’m playing games, and I want to play games all the morning, all day and do nothing.
15:21 I may call all that happiness. And is that happiness? One has to learn what happiness means. Right? Right, sir? So. And are you free? Wait a minute. What does freedom mean? It implies surely not doing exactly what you want to do.
15:50 Right? You cannot do what you want to do in life. Nobody can, only the few that are really free, free from anger, jealousy, possession, all the rest of it—I won’t go into it.
16:11 Those are the people that are really free.
16:18 So, a place to learn, a place where you are... it helps you to be happy, in the real sense—not my sense or your sense, but what is happiness, to find out, to learn about it.
16:45 And to learn about freedom, what is implied in freedom. Given all these three, that is the meaning of the school.
17:00 Right? Are we meeting?
17:02 Q: Can we also discuss what is implied in the different aspects of what ‘conducive’ means, what the word ‘conducive’ means?
17:19 K: Conducive: helpful, conduce, to give you opportunity. I mean, I would feel terribly unhappy or constrained, limited, in a flat in London.
17:35 However luxurious, however poor, I would hate it. I don’t want to live that way. That’s not conducive. I would run away. It doesn’t matter, I would run away to some potty little village. You follow? There I can walk, I can see the sky. All that’s implied in that word ‘conduce’, ‘conducive’. So, let’s take this one by one, shall we?
18:11 This is what you want to do, discuss, dialogue, isn’t it?—you began with this. You wanted to know the purpose of the school, of this school.
18:25 I said, if it is a set purpose, unyielding purpose from which you cannot deviate, move away, then such a purpose is deadly—right?—because it forces you, makes you conform and you rebel and all the rest of it.
18:51 So, a school implies a place where you learn. The very meaning of that word—Mr Simmons can help me out with that word—it means really to learn, a place to learn.
19:12 Then, are you learning?
19:14 Q: But when you say a place to learn do you mean...
19:24 K: A place where you can learn. It might be under a tree, it doesn’t mean that—a place. It might be in a room, it might be in a hall, it might be in the kitchen—a place where you learn.
19:41 In India, because it’s warm, they learn outside, under a tree.
19:51 In California...
19:52 Q: Do you mean to learn from somebody or to learn for yourself?
19:56 K: Learn, learn. You don’t know mathematics so you have to learn from somebody.
20:07 You don’t know about physics so you have to learn from somebody.
20:14 Come on, sir. So, are you learning or are you rebelling against learning?
20:35 You don’t want to learn, you don’t want to pay attention, you don’t want... —therefore you say, ‘I really come to school not to learn but to have…’ whatever you want.
20:51 Whatever you want then becomes the criterion and you rebel against learning.
21:00 Right?
21:01 Q: But we rebel against learning because we have to force our attention to something.
21:08 K: Sir, no, look, don’t break up the word too much—we can do that a little later—but learning implies learning mathematics, about which you may not know, geography you may not know, physics, biology, archaeology, architecture—anything.
21:31 I don’t know anything about music. I hear a great deal of it, but I don’t know how they write it and so on.
21:43 I want to learn. I must go to a musician to teach me. In that sense, for the moment, we are limiting that word, to learn—I learn from you geography because you are supposed to know and I don’t know.
22:08 Q: But I think you said that if he finds himself forcing himself to...
22:17 K: Therefore why do you force yourself to learn? Is it that you are lazy? Is it that you are not interested in the subject, which you must know if you’re going to be...
22:33 if you’re going to have an insight into various things? You follow? I don’t want to learn—what?
22:43 Q: Physics.
22:44 K: Physics. (Laughs) (Laughter) I don’t want to learn physics, and I see I must know in modern world something about physics.
22:58 I don’t want to learn, I force myself, I rebel, I feel Mr Joe is not teaching me properly—I kick against all that.
23:08 I blame him and not myself, because I don’t want to learn physics. I put the blame on the room or on somebody—you follow?—and so I resist it.
23:25 Which means I am not willing learn. Right, sir? (Pause) I am asking you, are you learning?
23:51 Q: I’ve been talking with Nelson and other people and there seems to be a feeling something like this: that I know some physics and I can teach physics, but then a student leaves my class and goes to, say, music.
24:21 I don’t know anything about music. Now, the student knows I don’t know anything about music but yet he’s got to learn music, he feels, and he’s got to learn physics.
24:32 So why does he have to learn these things when obviously his teachers only know one small area?
24:39 K: All right, all right. Why should I learn about music, about various things? Why? Do tell me, sir, discuss, dialogue.
24:45 Q: I think the trouble is learning stops when I feel that I have to learn something.
24:53 K: Are you saying, Tungki, that when you are forced to learn you don’t learn? Is that it?
24:59 Q: Yes. And…
25:01 K: Wait, wait. When you are forced to learn you don’t learn. Who is forcing you? Your parents sending you to this place are forcing you to learn.
25:14 Q: Or it might be my own idea that says that it might be useful in the future, or something like that.
25:33 K: No, I would ask you something. What is your attitude, your feeling about learning? You understand my question? You’re all so silent. Are you all so silent generally? What’s your attitude? You know what attitude means: how you look at it, how you feel about learning.
26:12 I’ll tell you. My attitude towards politics is entirely different from the attitude of probably other people.
26:25 My attitude, I say, ‘Politicians are gangsters, one party against another party,’ and so on, so on.
26:36 Attitude. Now, what is your attitude with regard to learning? Learning not a particular subject, learning as a whole.
26:49 Learning.
26:51 Q: I find that I’m doing an exam just because my parents want me to and not because I’m interested in it at all.
26:56 K: No, I’m asking you, what is your feeling about learning? Your feeling, your attitude, your movement, your way...
27:11 I say ‘learn’—what does it mean to you? (Pause) You see, you don’t...
27:38 Q: I find I get more and more interested, the more I teach.
27:43 K: Yes. You see, when we talked the other day in New York to these psychiatrists and analysts and psychologists, they were terribly eager to find out what I was thinking.
28:01 You follow? They wanted to learn. They said ‘why this, why that’—you follow?—they questioned me a great deal because they wanted to learn from someone who they thought could help them to learn more.
28:22 They may be wrong or they may be right, but their feeling, their attitude, their impulse, their instinct was to say, ‘Here is somebody; I want to learn more about it from him.’ Do you naturally have that feeling of wanting to learn?
28:48 Or you don’t.
28:49 Q: Well, in certain subjects, I just really like to learn because...
28:51 K: No, wait a minute, old boy. I said learning—not about a subject.
29:01 Q: Well, I like to learn.
29:06 K: You like to learn. So that is the principle, isn’t it? I was reading the other day in California a book called Mind in the Waters—Mind in the Waters—written by various people, the experts who have spent years and years on whales—how they live, what they do, how they play, how they mate—and dolphins.
29:45 It is extraordinary what is happening in that area.
29:55 I was fascinated, I want to learn much more about it. I won’t go into that. You know, their brain weighs fifteen hundred grams—enormous brain compared to ours.
30:17 How they developed it is that they were such enormous animals, nothing could destroy them—you understand?—there was no enemy.
30:30 Please listen to this. I am translating this from reading it. Nothing could destroy them. You understand? Deep down they were the masters of the sea.
30:48 And so through millennia they developed this brain because they were completely secure.
31:00 You’re following this? And one case—I’ll just tell you —a trainer was trying to teach a dolphin called Ruby, teach him how to pronounce Ru-by.
31:22 The dolphin learnt R and B. He learnt it very quickly and made its own noises, clicks and various noises.
31:33 And he found the dolphin was trying to teach him his language.
31:41 (Laughter) Because he said, ‘I have learnt your language—learn mine.’ (Laughs) You follow? And the man didn’t realise that it was teaching him. So I won’t go into all that.
32:01 Now, learning. I don’t know how seriously it appeals to you to learn.
32:14 Not history, physics, a subject, but the feeling of learning.
32:25 Does this place help you to have this feeling of learning, or are you rebelling against it?
32:36 Not a particular subject but the learning.
32:49 If it is not, why not? Is it your fault or somebody else’s fault?
33:01 I mean, most of us when we are young like you, we don’t want to learn. I say, ‘For God’s sake, why should I learn mathematics? What use is it? I’m bored with mathematics. I love physics, I don’t mind spending hours on physics, but I don’t want to learn mathematics.’ And so when the mathematical period comes, I resist it, I am bored, I’m yawning—you follow?—I want to throw the book out of the window.
33:42 Come on, sirs, I’m talking.
33:49 So what do you propose? If you’re not learning here, then what shall we do?
34:03 And a school is a place where you are learning. The place might be under a tree or in the top of a tree, or in a room or anything.
34:22 If there is not this feeling of learning, you will never learn about yourself or the world.
34:44 You understand what I’m talking about?
34:54 Oh Lord!
35:00 Q: The thing is, I can learn but… (inaudible) ..a way of… if I see… (inaudible) …learn to take care of my body.
35:33 K: Now wait a minute—I understand, Jean-Michel. Now, I want to learn about my body. I want to preserve that body because the body is an extraordinary thing.
35:50 I want to learn about it. So I must know biology, I must know how to look after the body—the right diet, the right exercise, the right way of thinking so that it affects the body.
36:11 You follow all this? You’re not interested? Are you interested in this? I want to learn about it. I go to some yoga teacher and I learn exercises, asanas, breathing and all the rest.
36:30 But that means I have to spend time at it, I have to be serious about it.
36:39 I’ve learnt yoga exercises from various teachers, including Desikachar from Madras, and others, and I have gone into it quite seriously and I learnt about it.
36:59 I spent time over it. I’m serious over it. I don’t do it one day and forget the next. No, I do it regularly, because I am interested. It means I want to... the body must be healthy, strong, vital, not sloppy and, you know, all the rest of it.
37:24 And to learn about the body means I must also learn about the mind, my brain.
37:32 Not from books; by watching myself. I have done that. So I am interested in it. Are you interested in that kind of thing?
37:44 Q: Yes.
37:45 K: Why?
37:47 Q: To learn for myself.
37:50 K: That means you want to learn. That’s what I’m... Not about the body—that’s a secondary issue—not about mathematics, not about physics or astronomy and so on—I want...
38:10 I have a feeling how extraordinarily subtle it is to learn.
38:20 That means I must have a very good mind.
38:28 To have a good mind I must spend time at it, watching, correcting, looking, seeing—all that is implied.
38:47 So is this place conducive to learn?
38:55 For it is a school.
39:02 School means an abode, a house of learning, where the student and the teachers are learning.
39:17 Come on, sir. What am I to... Are you learning? Please, learning implies that you are serious. Of course, not all the time—you must play and all the rest of it—but the feeling, the inside state of being serious.
39:54 When I began yoga, learning from Mr Iyengar and others, I spent three hours a day.
40:13 You understand? When I played golf, I spent three rounds a day, twenty-seven miles walking every day.
40:32 And I was first class at it because I liked it. But I was serious about it.
40:47 When I tried to learn Italian I spent hours listening very carefully to the Italians, especially the Tuscan Italians.
40:58 You follow?
41:06 Are you doing that here, or you just skim along on the surface, just pass some silly little exams and then say, ‘Well, I have learnt,’ and get...
41:18 Or is there a depth to learning?
41:25 Come on, sirs.
41:28 Q: Anything that I’m doing I’m learning about something different, but I don’t have always the serious feeling in me.
41:42 K: No, not always, but the intention—you follow?—the feeling, the demand.
41:56 Not from another; in yourself.
42:10 (Pause) You know, especially when we are young like you—and I’m afraid youth is wasted on you, but that’s your affair—while at your age it is very difficult for you to feel that you must learn, because the body is lazy, you are lazy, you are rebellious, you say, ‘Why shouldn’t I do this?
42:55 Why shouldn’t I do that? I want to be free. I am independent. I am individualistic. I am this, I am that.’ You follow? So, all that is like a burden which prevents you from learning.
43:11 Q: But how can one change that lack of interest in wanting to question yourself?
43:26 K: How can you change that lack of interest in learning?
43:32 Q: If you don’t learn that you have these attitudes then you’ll continue to...
43:38 K: That’s just it. I’m just saying, while you’re young if you’ve not that intention to learn, as you grow older you’ll just copy, imitate, conform—whether it’s long hair, short hair, business or whatever it is.
43:56 So how do you have this feeling? That’s your question, isn’t it? How do you acquire this feeling? Is it inherent? You understand, inherent? Is it born in you, like your eyelashes and hair, is it born with you the instinct to learn?
44:26 Or society, family, environment forces you to learn.
44:33 You see the difference? Do you see the difference? You’re born with it, or you’re not born with it and others force it on you.
44:48 Q: It seems as though we are very likely born with such basic...
44:57 K: I’m not... I mean, this is not for me to decide, but we can investigate and find out.
45:05 Q: It seems as though society is pushing on us what they feel is learning.
45:10 K: No, society says you must become somebody, you must... to earn a livelihood you must be an engineer, psychologist, a teacher, this, that, the other—so learn.
45:21 Q: But it stops real learning, it seems.
45:24 K: Wait, wait. It forces you. If you are left alone as a boy or a girl, parents don’t fuss, you say, ‘All right,’ you just—you follow?—you become a first class hippy.
45:43 Q: I don’t know, perhaps that’s a reaction against...
45:47 K: You don’t want to learn.
45:49 Q: Well, if we did learn… or we must learn, is it possible… or how is it possible that we could go along the lines of our last intention?
46:01 Supposing if you wanted to work as a teacher or a psychologist or something of that sort, is it possible to… if you must learn, is it possible to go along in that direction?
46:28 K: It is possible because... First—just a minute—if you want to become a psychiatrist, you must be an MD, a doctor.
46:39 You can’t practise psychiatry unless you become an MD.
46:48 You can become a quack—that’s a different matter. Not that the MDs are not also quacks. But you have to become a recognised... if you want to be recognised and put a board outside, you must become an MD and learn the psychology, either Freudian or this or that, or invent your own.
47:23 Q: But isn’t this a difficult, that if you want to go along this line that there’s nothing there to sort of begin on or start on to have your interest grow?
48:40 K: I don’t quite follow, sorry.
48:44 Q: Well, I mean it’s very difficult to follow in this line if the sort of classes or the sort of learning in that area is not there in the beginning.
49:15 Q: I think he’s talking about the real, the basic, the essential thing that you should be learning is missing.
49:31 So in order to become the MD, etc., you have to do all of these.
49:54 Q: I mean, with the schools there is nothing which will tell you, which will help you to learn in that direction if you wanted to. You see? That’s what I’m trying to say.
49:58 Q: I’ve talked with Michael about this before. I think I know what he’s saying. He’s saying that if I want to be a psychiatrist and I’m in Brockwood, there aren’t any subjects which are relevant to psychiatry. Is that right?
50:03 Q: Yes.
50:04 Q: No.
50:05 K: That is, if I want to become an MD and a psychiatrist, Brockwood doesn’t give me an opportunity to become an MD. Is that it?
50:08 Q: Yes, but I think he misses the point.
50:09 K: I’m afraid, yes.
50:10 Q: That before you become an MD you have to know a lot of other things.
50:11 K: Yes, I said that.
50:12 Q: To reach that standard of understanding, the education which is required for an MD.
50:13 K: Of course.
50:14 Q: I see.
50:15 K: You may not have the subjects an MD wants, but you must have the background of all that. No, you... We are...
50:18 Q: (Inaudible) …all the subjects that you need for an MD because you’ve got to get to university first, before you can…
50:20 K: That’s just it—you’ll have to enter a university, of course. And the university says, ‘Please, you must pass A Level or O Level,’ whatever it is.
50:22 Q: That’s right, but if I want to study biology, I mean, I like to study at my own speed. I mean…
50:25 K: At your own speed—yes, I understand.
50:26 Q: To look at it not the way the teacher says...
50:27 K: Look here, Jean Michel, I’m trying to find out—please, do put your mind on to this—I’m trying to find out if you want to learn—want, not MD or physics—if you have this feeling inside you that you must... you are here to learn. (Pause) Come on, sir.
50:47 You want to learn? Are you sure? Then what do you do? If you want learn, what is your response to a subject, to anything, what’s your action towards it?
51:09 Q: To ask a question. To go to someone who knows and say, ‘Why does this run this way, or what makes it go, and what makes it this colour?’ K: No, learn...
51:21 Look, I was telling you about the whales. I want to learn, I want to find out how extraordinary things they are, probably much more alive, in a different direction, in a different environment, than we are; much more affectionate.
51:40 There is a story there. You know, they were kept in the tank, a dolphin and a whale, small whale.
51:53 And to catch a dolphin in the tank you have to lower the water, otherwise they’d slip about.
52:02 So they lowered the water. The man, the trainer, gets in and tries to catch it, and catches it.
52:11 And the whale comes along, because when the dolphin is caught it makes noises, so the whale comes along, comes in between the man and the dolphin, gently pushes him out, without anger, without fight, without biting, comes in between the two and pushes it out.
52:33 He repeats this three times till the water is low enough for him to catch.
52:45 Now, the feeling of learning demands curiosity.
52:52 You understand? I’m terribly curious how these whales live, why human beings kill them.
53:03 You know how many, within the last decade, how many millions have been killed? Fifty million whales have been killed. They are nearly decimating, human beings.
53:21 So, I want to learn. Learning means curiosity, about anything, it doesn’t matter.
53:36 I’m curious. Learning means energy—are you following?—learning means attention, to give your mind to something which you think you have to... which you want to learn because you’re curious.
54:05 I’m terribly interested in the human mind.
54:13 Not the structure, the biological nature of the mind. I’m interested why human beings think that way, why they believe, why they kill, why they are so monstrously ugly, cruel.
54:27 I’m terribly interested, and I watch my own mind—you follow?—because my mind is the rest of the mind.
54:40 So if you have the desire, the urge to learn, you’ll learn.
54:48 It doesn’t matter what it is. You may say, ‘My God, I’m not interested in physics, but I must also know something about it.
54:59 I’m not interested in mathematics; I must know something about it.’ Not the higher mathematics, because I’m...—I must know something about it.
55:11 I went to school and I never passed an exam. I wanted... they sent me to various universities—couldn’t—and I dropped out. But I haven’t lost the capacity to learn.
55:29 So, learning implies curiosity, learning implies energy.
55:47 If you want to learn tennis, you have to spend energy on it, attention, watching how you hold the racquet, playing with as good people as possible, first class.
56:07 Energy, and also it means attention when you are playing.
56:14 You know, when you are playing golf, when you hit a ball your head goes up and looks where the ball is going.
56:25 That’s a mistake because when you lift your head you have already missed it. So you have to watch it. And I trained myself by putting a piece of paper next to the ball and said, ‘Don’t lift your head.’ You follow?
56:42 Within a week I was first class, never lifted it. Because I wanted to play a very good game—fun. So it means curiosity, energy, attention.
57:00 Have you got these three?
57:10 And also learning means a place which is helpful for you to learn, a nice place, a beautiful place, a place where the people are friendly.
57:25 You understand what I’m... The place matters enormously.
57:37 You see, we are building... they are going to build in California, at Ojai, a school.
57:44 We talked about... we talked to the architects. They said we must have classrooms. I said, ‘Why? Why have classrooms?’ People go from here, from the house, to the classrooms to learn, and when they... at the end of the evening it’s empty.
58:10 Right? So why not have the classroom in the house? You understand what I am talking about? A large room. And after discussing, trying to convince them, we got it.
58:28 You follow? So, a place that is helpful to learn.
58:38 Come on, sir, I’m working, you’re not working.
58:45 Q: All these things that you have mentioned—attention and other things, the place and other things—they are things here.
58:56 K: Then why aren’t you learning?
58:57 Q: Yes, well…
58:58 K: If everything is given to you, why aren’t you learning?
59:00 Q: But what makes this happen?
59:05 K: Either you are lazy or you’re chasing boys and girls—which is all right in its place but not when...—or you want to play all the time, you’re not serious.
59:28 I know a chap, used to know him, he learnt—what is that called?—black belt, you know, that…—what is that?
59:40 Many: Judo.
59:42 Q: Karate.
59:43 K: One at a time. Karate? You know how he went at it? Day after day, day after day. And he got the black belt, and how proud he was. And he was first class. He beat his own Japanese teacher because he put his attention, his energy, his vitality into it.
1:00:15 And here you are given the place—for God’s sake, why aren’t you learning?
1:00:26 Don’t blame somebody else. That’s a cheap way of getting out.
1:00:41 He showed me, this chap, when I was living in France, in Paris—my!—you know, beautiful to watch, the way he walked, the way he moved.
1:00:57 You do some of it, don’t you? When I used to play golf with the professionals, people used to turn out to watch me.
1:01:16 In those days I was awfully proud because that was the only thing I had, you know?
1:01:27 So, the place is here, it’s a beautiful place, people are affectionate with you, want to help you, and you’re not... either you are learning, in that sense curious, energy, attention.
1:02:03 Not all the time, of course, you can’t do that. But I do it all the time. I am like a volcano. I want to see myself very clearly, I don’t let a thing slip by in myself or around me.
1:02:27 So why aren’t you learning, if you are not learning?
1:02:35 If you are learning, tant mieux, so much the better.
1:02:47 And you can only learn, in the deep sense of that word, only when you’re free.
1:03:00 You understand? You understand? Free. Now, let’s go into that.
1:03:20 Are you free here? Don’t say yes or no, but find out.
1:03:36 You know what freedom means? Does freedom mean to do what you want to do?
1:03:51 Go on, sir. So if you say no, that desire to do what you want to do must never enter when you are learning.
1:04:13 Right? I want to learn, and I can only learn when there is freedom.
1:04:27 And freedom implies... freedom is not doing what I want to do.
1:04:34 Why do you say… why do you agree with that?
1:04:47 Q: If I do what I want to do, I may hurt some other people.
1:04:53 K: Not only you hurt some other people, but also, can you do what you want to do, ever?
1:05:03 Go on, sir, discuss it.
1:05:11 You are learning, I am learning with you. Can you do what you want to do in life? Not only in the school here, but when you go out.
1:05:33 What you want to do is—listen to this carefully—what you want to do is either according to your conditioning or against your conditioning.
1:05:50 You follow what I’m saying? All right. I am conditioned, suppose I am, as—what? I’m conditioned by my family which says I must be a lawyer because my father was a lawyer and my grandfather was a lawyer and my great-grandfather was a lawyer and my mother was a lawyer—you know, all the background.
1:06:18 So I must be a lawyer. And I see it’s a very good profession and I want to have money, so I become a clever lawyer.
1:06:32 That is, I am conditioned by the society I live in, by the parents around me.
1:06:42 I am conditioned, shaped, to become a lawyer. Or I rebel against that and say, ‘I will be a farmer.’ Or I say, ‘No, it’s not a rebellion against a lawyer or becoming a farmer, I want to be a painter because I feel I can paint.’ Which is not a rebellion, not a reaction, it is my… it is the feeling that I have this capacity to paint.
1:07:20 Which is not what I want to do—are you following all this?—but it is what I... it is my metier, it is my...
1:07:36 Q: Talent?
1:07:38 K: …talent, it’s my dharma—you know? I won’t use the Sanskrit word. It is my... I can’t help it. I used to know...
1:07:54 Q: You used the word ‘dharma’?
1:07:56 K: Dharma. A Sanskrit word. It’s a very complex word. It means duty, responsibility—all kinds of things are involved in that word. I used to know a painter in Paris. He loved to paint. He had no money, not a cent. Literally not a cent. And he used to cleverly arrange with his... with the friends he knew to go to their various houses to eat meals.
1:08:30 You follow? (Laughs) You go to various houses to have breakfast, lunch and dinner.
1:08:38 Paints cost money so he went to a boot black and bought some cheap boot polish.
1:08:47 (Laughs) You follow? And with that he painted, began, worked, because he had this feeling ‘I must paint’.
1:09:01 It’s not that I want to paint, it is... —you know? It didn’t bring him any reward, it didn’t punish him, he didn’t get a lot of money, he said, ‘I am not interested, I just want to paint.’ And unfortunately—he would have been a marvellous painter—he died.
1:09:27 Q: There are a lot of people who have done this—at all costs, they want to fulfil their capacity, who seem to have done a lot of damage.
1:09:39 There are a lot of artists and musicians who feel that they must at all costs fulfil their capacity, who seem to have done a lot of damage.
1:09:47 K: Of course, of course—I don’t want to enter...
1:09:56 Q: How do you distinguish?
1:09:57 K: Of course, of course.
1:09:59 Q: It’s a tricky one.
1:10:02 K: I mean, if they were learning, they wouldn’t do damage to themselves or to others.
1:10:14 But their idea was, ‘I must paint.’ This chap was so damned selfish. He was intolerably selfish.
1:10:20 Q: The same one you were talking about?
1:10:24 K: Yes. He was not interested in anything except himself and his painting. Well, that’s a... I mean... So freedom means, not to do what you want to do—get that into your bones and you will learn this.
1:10:57 Not to do what you want to do. You can’t.
1:11:01 Q: Was this painter doing what he wanted to do?
1:11:07 K: He wanted, but... No, this painter had a talent. Around that talent there was colossal selfishness.
1:11:15 Q: There was, yes. It seems from the story.
1:11:22 K: And arrogance, cunningness. He wasn’t concerned about learning, but expression. You understand?
1:11:31 Q: Expression of what?
1:11:33 K: What he wanted to do—until he choked with it.
1:11:40 Q: But you said he would have been a very good artist if he had lived.
1:11:43 K: Artist in the accepted sense of that word.
1:11:51 Art—you know what art means; we have discussed that—art means to put everything in its right place, put everything where it belongs.
1:12:08 He was not an artist in the wide, deeper sense of the world—he was an artist as… accepted word, you know, painter.
1:12:14 Q: So when you were talking about your experience of learning golfing, if you had been proud and not paid attention to that pride, then you would not have been learning?
1:12:29 K: Of course, sir.
1:12:30 Q: Then you would perhaps… (inaudible) K: Too damn silly to be proud about some game.
1:12:43 So freedom means not to do what you want to do.
1:12:50 What you want to do is either a response, a reaction to your conditioning, or something which is not conditioned but instinctual action surrounded by great deal of selfishness, brutality, violence, arrogance.
1:13:15 And that is not freedom. You follow? I wonder if you’re following all this. So freedom means also no authority.
1:13:34 We are entering into a difficult subject. No authority.
1:13:47 But if you are disorderly, if you are not really learning and therefore creating disorder, you are inviting authority.
1:14:07 You understand what I’m saying? I am disorderly, I get up when I like, I go to bed when I like, I attend class when I like, I go out walking when I like, and doing things haphazardly.
1:14:25 Disorder. In a community where I’m disorderly what takes place? Somebody comes along and says, ‘Hey, we’re all living together, you can’t be disorderly.’ And I say, ‘Who the hell are you to tell me?
1:14:45 I am free. My freedom is to do what I want.’ And gradually either I’m thrown out because I’m creating disorder or I kick against somebody who says, ‘You are disorderly.’ So, because I’m disorderly I make that person into an authority.
1:15:13 I wonder if you see that. And Mr Joe is a physicist. He’s the authority. I have to learn from him. So he’s my authority. There’s nothing wrong in that, is it?
1:15:37 I go to Mr Porter and say, ‘Please, teach me about gardening,’ because I know nothing about gardening.
1:15:49 He becomes my authority. That’s a normal thing. But the authority which I create out of my disorderliness is quite different.
1:16:01 You understand? You see the difference? Oh, come on, sir.
1:16:10 We all agree that we should have a meal at one o’clock, and I come up at... turn up at half past one, quarter to two or whatever it is.
1:16:24 And after I’ve been told, ‘Please, don’t,’ and all the rest of it, I keep on doing it. And somebody says, ‘Look, it’s inconvenient for others,’ and makes me realise that I am selfish, thoughtless.
1:16:43 And I accuse that person as being authoritarian. Right? Which is silly, isn’t it? What do you say? You’re all very silent about this. (Laughs) Does the shoe pinch?
1:17:02 Q: What about other kinds of authority?
1:17:07 K: I’m going to that.
1:17:15 I’m going to that.
1:17:22 Mr Joe knows physics, I don’t know. And so because he knows, he has learnt, he has studied, I learn from him.
1:17:34 But Mr Joe can exercise that authority wrongly. Right? Of course. So there are two points in this. I’m out to learn. I want to learn—please listen—I want to learn all about authority.
1:18:02 Not just one authority or two authorities, the whole nature and the structure of authority.
1:18:09 The word ‘authority’ comes from the word ‘author’—right, sir?—the one who originates something.
1:18:23 That’s the meaning of authority. That is, you originate something and I come along and I say you are the authority on that subject, authority on that.
1:18:44 In acknowledging that authority there is no power involved, there is no status involved.
1:18:51 I say, ‘Yes, you are my authority.’ The doctor is my authority when I am ill.
1:18:58 You’re following all this? In following the doctor there is no worship, there is no feeling of, ‘Oh, I am not free.’ I say, ‘Yes, I’m ill.
1:19:13 You know better, you know the subject, diseases, you have studied it, you have gone into it, you have treated perhaps a thousand patients.
1:19:21 I’m one of them. I learn. You treat me.’ In that there is authority of... that is not authority.
1:19:31 Agree? Agree? Right? Agree? You’re so damned reluctant about this. (Laughs) Right. Then there is the authority that wants to dominate you.
1:19:57 I want to dominate you because I think I am right.
1:20:04 Right? I think I am right, and I am obstinate, I am unyielding.
1:20:15 So I say to you, ‘You must obey me because I am the’—whatever it is—‘I am the boss or I am the chief bottle washer so you must obey me.’ And you rebel against that.
1:20:29 Now, what takes place? Why should I be that... accept... why should I put myself in that position of authoritarian attitude?
1:20:43 You understand? Are you following this?
1:20:49 Q: (Inaudible) K: No, I say, ‘I am the head of this place, and you must do what I tell you.’ That would be too silly.
1:21:09 But if I say to you, ‘Let’s talk it over. The tree should go there. Let’s talk it over,’ or, ‘You should have this kind of food.
1:21:24 I’ve gone into it’—suppose I’ve gone into it, which I have, and I’ve talked to various doctors, nutritionists, you know, talked—and so I say, ‘Look, I think this is a good way of eating—food, diet, nutrition.’ We talk it over.
1:21:49 Right? I don’t... Because of my little more knowledge of food, nutrition, I don’t say, ‘I’m the author, the authority.’ I have no authority.
1:22:01 I want you to learn what I have learnt. I may be wrong. You may add to what I know. You may know more. In that relationship there is no authority. Right? We both of us come to the same point.
1:22:24 I wonder if you are following all this.
1:22:32 Authority also means I want to use you for my ends.
1:22:42 Q: (Inaudible) …authority in the sense of the origin of the word.
1:22:50 K: No, I put myself in a position where I want to use you, exploit you, because I like it, I take pleasure, it gives me satisfaction.
1:23:04 Q: With knowledge... (inaudible) K: I have got a position and I exploit you for my satisfaction.
1:23:17 Are you following all this? Then there is rebellion. Then there is conflict between you and me. In that conflict neither of us learn. That is, when I take a position, a stand, then all communication stops, all learning stops, there is no dialogue.
1:23:52 Right? So. But when we, all of us, the staff and the school agree to do something and one of the students doesn’t do it and is reminded after several times, he says I am authoritarian.
1:24:15 You follow? He, out of his discourtesy, out of his thoughtlessness, he makes me authoritarian, when I don’t want to be authoritarian.
1:24:27 I don’t know if you... Then you say, ‘Well, this school is run on authority,’ because you make me into the author.
1:24:40 Right. So freedom means freedom to learn.
1:24:51 Freedom to learn about authority, whether it is your authority or my authority.
1:24:59 I wonder if you see this. You say, ‘Why shouldn’t I do what I want to do?’ And you create the authority.
1:25:08 You become the authority. Whereas if you say, ‘Look, this is what I want to do. Let’s talk it over, let’s go into it’…
1:25:20 Q: If there is somebody in a very high position exerting their authority and you are not able to go and speak with them, and yet he is exerting authority.
1:25:32 K: Of course, I can’t... if I am a soldier I can’t go up to the general and talk.
1:25:39 Q: How are you going to function then?
1:25:44 K: We are not talking about the soldier and the general, we are talking amongst ourselves, as we are a limited group, a small community, where all of us are learning, both the...
1:26:00 Q: But it will also happen when we go outside the school.
1:26:05 K: Wait. When I know what it is to learn now, here, when I go outside I will learn there. I won’t associate with people who dominate me. I won’t become a soldier to be kicked around by a general.
1:26:26 But when I work in a factory—just follow it up intelligently—work in a factory, the machine... the people who know tell me what to do.
1:26:38 Either the state—you follow?—state tells me what to do, like the communists and the...
1:26:45 They say, ‘You must do that. You can’t leave this place without permission. You can’t live in Moscow without permission.’ Q: Then what?
1:27:02 K: Then what, are you saying? Then I don’t live in Moscow.
1:27:09 Q: What if you aren’t able to get out of Russia?
1:27:16 You might not be able to leave the country.
1:27:17 K: Therefore, what do I do? I starve. Or they shoot me, put me in prison. We are not living in Moscow, thank God. So we are living here in a small community where we are learning. That’s all my point. Not what happens outside. What happens outside will come rightly when I know how to learn here.
1:27:48 That’s all my point. Because the big world is the little world where we live, how we live.
1:27:59 If I know how to live with you with this community—understanding authority, understanding learning, what is implied in learning, all that—then, you know, I’ve got strength, I’ve got vitality, I’ve got energy to go and meet that.
1:28:16 (Pause) I’ve got intelligence and with that intelligence I can meet anything.
1:28:31 Q: (Inaudible) …happened to me while I was in London at rush-hour, and everybody was trying to get into the bus, everybody was pushing.
1:28:43 K: I know, I’ve been there.
1:28:49 Q: And I found myself… I just couldn’t push myself between them, but I had to be at a certain place at a certain time.
1:29:04 K: I know. I got into the underground at four-thirty or five—you know what it’s like on the underground, packed like sardines—I got in and I was pushed out and the doors closed round my foot.
1:29:16 So a man comes along and pulls me!
1:29:24 (Laughs) So, please, we must stop. A school implies a place where you learn.
1:29:37 Learning implies that you must have curiosity, energy, attention; and learning implies also a place which is congenial, happy—you know?—and a place like this, it is a lovely place, it is congenial.
1:30:05 You acknowledged it. You said that, I didn’t say that. And learning also implies about authority and freedom. Don’t say, ‘I want to be free, I object to authority’—you don’t know what that word means even, what are the implications of it.
1:30:36 Rebellion against the establishment—and then you rebel against it and form your own establishment, which is the same.
1:30:44 So, to learn implies—please do listen to this—tremendous seriousness.
1:30:54 Not all the time but at the moment... at the right... at sometimes during the day you have to be serious.
1:31:04 And to be serious, to learn yoga, to go with it fully, and so on, so on, so on—you must give your life to something.
1:31:27 When you go out, when you have to earn money, you’ve got to go to the office from morning till...—you follow?—nine-thirty or eight-thirty till five, work like a slave.
1:31:40 What for?
1:31:49 And also learning implies learning about relationship. (Pause) That’s enough, isn’t it, this morning?
1:32:15 That is a large pill to swallow. I hope you’ve swallowed a great deal. Thoughtfully, not just swallowed but chewed, went over it, gone into it, looked at it, so that when you leave this place you are intelligent human beings and meet any challenge, whether you’re living in Moscow or any other place.
1:32:54 We’ll discuss some more afterwards.