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BR75DSS1.06 - Meditation and yoga
Brockwood Park, UK - 22 May 1975
Discussion with Staff and Students 1.06



0:00 This is J. Krishnamurti’s sixth discussion with teachers and students at Brockwood Park, 1975.
0:13 Krishnamurti: What shall we talk about this morning?
0:25 Questioner: There is something I would like to go into, it’s if we could understand the implications of what is yoga.
0:39 K: There’s the expert.
0:47 Please correct me, sir, if I am wrong. It is a Sanskrit word that means to join.
1:01 The root meaning is like, yoke of an ox, to bring about a union between yourself and the highest form of Brahman, or the highest form, the highest principle.
1:24 To bring the self, transform it or bring it together with the highest principle of God or truth or whatever that is.
1:39 That is the root meaning of that word. And I think there is… in that there is a division between the highest and the lowest.
2:00 And I’m sure—I’m just speculating on this—that there must have been some mistake, or they considered originally that this division is natural, between the higher and the lower.
2:21 And the effort and the system and the curriculum, which is an aggregate of various forms of studies, brings about this union.
2:34 Right, sir? Right. That’s the real meaning of the word ‘yoga’.
2:44 And there have been many practices, different kinds of practices to bring about this union. Right?
2:51 Q: Why has it come to mean only physical culture now?
2:58 K: Ah, that’s Hatha Yoga. There are different yogas. Are you interested in all this or is it a bore? All right. There are different kinds of yoga: Hatha Yoga, which is the bodily yoga; Raja Yoga is the highest form of yoga in which—please listen to this carefully—there is no discipline, no practice, but a righteous way of living, which in itself was the yoga.
3:41 And because people demand, you know, new tricks and new things, they’ve got various other kinds of yoga—Bhakti Yoga; I won’t go into all that.
3:56 Finished?
3:58 Q: I hope not!
4:04 Q: Can you teach us about Raja Yoga?
4:17 K: Can I teach Tungki or us Raja Yoga?
4:26 You know, Raja means king, King of Yogas.
4:37 There, as far as I understand, what was understood, what was said was that you must look after your body intelligently, not force it, not compel it, not do all kinds of things that will make the body unintelligent, insensitive, therefore don’t smoke, don’t drink alcohol, wine, don’t indulge in your sexual appetites too much, have clear thoughts, and so on, so on, so on.
5:27 Raja Yoga meant, as far as I understood, from what people have told me and with whom I have discussed this matter, it’s all a matter of control.
5:40 Q: It’s a discipline of physical organism.
5:46 K: It’s a discipline of physical organism, and therefore it’s implied, constant control, constant watching over it, doing the right kind of exercises.
6:07 Q: And even to maintain regular exercise, there seems to be force involved. I mean in the sense that it’s not how you...
6:33 K: No, I think that force is not involved. Suppose my shoulder is stiff and I can’t move it properly.
6:43 And I move it, do it every day, little by little, little by little. That’s not forcing it, it is a necessity.
6:55 I wonder—you understand?
6:56 Q: Well, so understanding the necessity...
7:00 K: No, suppose the doctor tells you keep your shoulder, as it is stiff, moving all the time, do exercise every day regularly.
7:09 That’s not forcing it.
7:10 Q: No.
7:11 K: Because your own intelligence says, I’d better do that because it will help my shoulder, because it’s very stiff, painful, and therefore it’s not forcing it.
7:21 Q: But if you don’t have pain, there usually isn’t an impetus.
7:26 K: But you may not… while you’re young you may not have pain, but as you get a little bit older, your organism and your bones, everything becomes rather stiff, and you keep it supple.
7:40 Q: The concept is that from Hatha Yoga you can go to Raja Yoga.
7:49 So what relationship has one to the other?
7:51 K: What is the relationship between Hatha Yoga—you know what it is, the yoga of the body, exercise—and Raja Yoga.
7:59 That’s what the question is, isn’t it? Look, I’m not a specialist on this, so I may be wrong, but I don’t think there is any relationship between the two.
8:15 Q: Because one is working on mechanical principles.
8:18 K: Yes, that’s it. Physical organism operates on mechanical principle, and Raja Yoga is on the contrary, there is no mechanical process involved at all.
8:34 There is no automatic responses, it is a watchfulness that brings about...
8:41 Q: You mentioned the word ‘control’ when you were talking about Raja Yoga.
8:47 K: No, no, Raja Yoga, in that, I don’t believe—it may be—I wouldn’t know enough.
8:57 They probably all… all yoga, control is involved, some form or other. Right, sir? Or not?
9:05 Q: Control… (inaudible) …mind in the process of thinking that identifying the mind and body together, mind also picks up the same mechanical act.
9:20 K: Yes. You’ve understood? When the physical organism is mechanical, and we relate that mechanical habit to the mind also, so gradually the mind becomes mechanical, the body becomes mechanical.
9:45 Which is not Raja yoga. Anything more, sir?
9:51 Q: Yes. How does health of the body come about through Raja Yoga?
10:07 (Pause) I think I answered it myself, sorry.
10:16 K: You want to talk about pranayama and all that?
10:25 Q: Sure.
10:26 K: Oh Lord! (Laughter) Do you know anything about meditation? Do you want to learn about it? Many: Yes.
10:37 K: No, sir, it isn’t a game you play, meditation is the most serious thing in life—you can’t just say, ‘Well, I’ll play with it for a while and drop it.’ If you’re serious, really serious, I’ll go into it, but if you’re not, don’t bother about it.
10:58 Now you tell me. If you’re serious and if you really want to go into it, we’ll go into it. If you’re not, let’s talk about something else.
11:08 Q: Perhaps we don’t know what meditation is, so we may not know what...
11:12 K: I’m going to tell you. I’m going to tell you what meditation means. The meaning of that word is to meditate upon, think upon, ponder over.
11:25 And also meditation means measure, to measure. Right, sir? So we’ve got two authorities, so we’re quite safe!
11:41 Now, do you want to know something about it? Because Pranayama is said to be related to it, but I question it.
11:59 Meditation generally means, as it is understood in the whole of the East—you know, India, about three thousand years ago, two thousand years ago, more, much more, three thousand years ago, exploded over the whole of Asia.
12:19 You understand? Burst over the whole of Asia, as Greece did over Europe. Right? Historically this is a fact. And they wanted to find out if thought will lead to the highest principle.
12:50 You understand? Are you interested in this? Nelson?
12:57 Q: Yes.
13:00 K: Right, good. The highest principle they said was Brahman, which is the nameless, which has no form, which has no content, which is universal, cosmic, eternal, everlasting.
13:23 And to reach that principle, that highest thing, thought, which is measurement—you understand? —can never lead to that.
13:42 Thought can never lead to the highest thing.
13:45 Q: How did they know about the highest thing?
13:50 K: They didn’t. No, they said there must be. Therefore thought, which is always limited, can never lead to the unlimited, to the free.
14:10 You’ve understood? Right? So they said, control thought, by any means.
14:22 So they had systems, practices, methods, various forms of disciplinary processes to subjugate, control, suppress, resist, build a wall round thought.
14:40 You’ve understood? Bene? Shall I go on? That was their idea. And the Greeks in the Western world, which exploded over the whole of Europe said thought is measurement—you understand?—and measurement is essential to life.
15:12 So the whole of the Western outlook was technological, industrial, material.
15:25 This is a fact again. Right, sir? History. So the West developed technology, industry, you know, the game of war, science, transportation; everything to control, subjugate nature, overcome nature.
15:50 And you could do that only through measurement. You’ve understood? Do you want me to go on with this?
16:00 Q: Was there no other part of the Grecian philosophy towards this unknowable, unmeasurable?
16:10 K: I don’t understand.
16:12 Q: Was there another part of the Grecian philosophy?
16:14 K: Oh yes, the Greeks also had philosophy, you know, the whole thing, but they said thought is essential, measurement.
16:25 And the Hindus said, the ancient Hindus—correct me, sir—said thought can never lead to the immeasurable, to freedom, to the unknown.
16:43 Whatever the unknown is, thought cannot lead you to it. But yet they used thought to control thought—you understand?—in order to get the other.
16:55 So both the East and the West were the same. I wonder if you understand this.
17:10 The East, which was India, said thought can never, as it is limited, can never free itself to understand what is cosmic, universal, whole.
17:27 Q: Then why didn’t they see that they were using thought too.
17:38 K: Because they said thought, you must suppress it, control it, shape it, otherwise you can’t…
17:50 But then I don’t think anybody questioned: who is the thinker?
18:00 Is he not also part of thought? I don’t know if you… So somebody comes along like me and says, that’s wrong, it’s not… You have created a division between the thinker and the thought, between the lower self and the abstract principle which is the highest Brahman, you have created division.
18:32 And that division is created by thought. So you must understand thought, not how to get beyond thought.
18:44 Are you following this?
18:51 So meditation according to the old Asiatic principle is, thought must be controlled.
19:00 The Zen Buddhists—you’ve heard of Zen Buddhism? Have you? The word ‘Zen’—Z-E-N comes from the Sanskrit word—correct me—‘dʑjen’.
19:15 Dʑjen, the Chinese—no, the Buddhists—you know Buddha?
19:25 Have you heard of the Buddha? Have you? Oh my Lord, you’re a lot of ignorant people, aren’t you?
19:43 (Laughter) He was 2,500 BC.
19:48 Q: 500 BC.
19:51 K: 500 BC—that’s what I was trying to get at.
20:00 500 BC. And his disciple, one of his disciples, later went to China.
20:10 I’ve forgotten his name.
20:16 Q: Bodhidharma.
20:19 K: Sorry (laughs). And he preached Buddhism. And one of the principles of Buddhism is to meditate. And the Chinese couldn’t pronounce dʑjen. I doubt if you can pronounce it! Dʑjen. So they made it into ‘zjen’, and it became ‘zen’. Zen Buddhism, Zen meditation, Hindu meditation, all the various forms of meditations which have been introduced into this country, and to America and to other parts of the world, is based on this principle of controlling thought.
21:08 Right, sir? You understand? Control it. And to control it you have to have various systems, practices, various leaders who will tell you how to control it.
21:29 I believe, I was told, when you go to a Zen monastery in Japan, there is the guru there, the teacher, the master.
21:41 He watches you, how you are practising meditation. Which means to be aware. And if you slightly go to sleep as you’re doing it, he comes round and beats you up!
22:01 And so you have to watch and all the rest of it. So the whole principle is that thought must at any price be controlled.
22:13 Because thought is the basis of all action.
22:21 Right? Have you understood?
22:32 And if you want to lead a righteous life, a life that’s healthy, clean, whole—I’m putting all this, they don’t say that—you must control thought.
22:48 And out of that control comes the control of reactions. Right? If you hit me, I’ve so control of myself I won’t hit you back.
23:08 I won’t look at a woman, I won’t look at a tree, because everything is a distraction from the dedicated control which will ultimately lead me to that highest principle.
23:28 Got it? Have you understood this? This is what they say, the whole of Asia. And in Christianity you have another kind of meditation which is called contemplation. Giving yourself over to God. Right? So this is the principle right through life, whether it is in the East or the West: control.
24:06 Control your appetites, control your sexual desires, control your way of behaving, don’t get angry, therefore control, control, suppress.
24:24 Which has its own results, perhaps worthwhile in a certain direction, but certainly when you suppress a great deal it leads to all kinds of neurotic actions.
24:43 Is this clear? Right?
24:49 Q: In which way would it be worthwhile to control?
24:54 K: In which way? I mean, if you wanted to go to the pub and have a beer, you say, ‘Well, I’ll control myself.’ And perhaps your body may be a little bit better off.
25:06 But to me the whole principle of control is utterly—what?—stupid. Personally, I’ve never controlled anything, any desire, anything.
25:27 So—you follow?—meditation according to the ancient people, which is handed down through generations in India and in Asia, is based on this principle of control.
25:46 And so they say, sit properly, sit your body not sloppily, sit straight.
26:00 You know, they’ve got that posture, as the doctor is sitting; and it is necessary, if you observe it for yourself, if you sit straight, blood flows easier to your head.
26:15 This is pure biological action, automatic.
26:22 When you sit sloppily, it’s more difficult. But if you sit absolutely straight, with your spine straight, naturally the blood flows easier to the head.
26:35 You’ve understood? That’s why they say, when you meditate you must sit absolutely still, physically.
26:49 Right? And—if you’re interested in all that kind of stuff, I’ll go into it—and you must keep your breath, your breathing very regular, which is pranayama, part of it—I won’t go into all the meaning of it.
27:12 Because I’ve discussed this with Dr Parchure, with other yogis and they have shown me, they have taught me how to breathe, how not to breathe, and so on, so on.
27:29 So I see the necessity, by observing myself, that as long as you sit very straight, the blood, there is no strain on the heart and therefore the blood goes easier to the head.
27:44 The head is the most important thing, naturally, because there is the brain, there is the whole…
27:53 — everything is controlled from there. And breathe regularly. And they show you how to breathe in a certain way.
28:01 Q: Has there been a contradiction in how different yogis taught you?
28:08 K: Oh, contradictions, good God! Each guru, each swami, each has his own system—you follow?—by the end of it you don’t know where you are, if you go to them all.
28:23 You become a cuckoo, a monkey, lost. But if you observe you can learn very quickly to distinguish which is true, which is false, which is exaggerated, which has no meaning, and so on, so on.
28:41 Then you must keep your mind absolutely quiet.
28:45 Q: May I ask why the breath should be regular?
28:53 K: Haven’t you seen it, sir? Do it. If you pant, you know, your whole body is agitated, therefore sit quietly, in that posture, or somehow, your body, your hands still, and your eyes still.
29:11 Q: Does the mind require the breath be regular?
29:16 K: This is what… I am telling you what they say.
29:18 Q: Oh.
29:19 K: (Laughs) And…
29:20 Q: The conclusion that I did get is that this stillness of the body and quietness of the breath will lead to quietness of the mind.
29:36 K: I know.
29:37 Q: So the mechanical organism has learnt mechanics.
29:40 K: You understand what the doctor is saying? If you keep your body still, your breath still, and make it so mechanical, then your mind also will become still, which is mechanical.
29:56 Through the body, the mechanical habit of the body, will bring about quietness of the mind, make the mind mechanical.
30:04 Q: Which is forced?
30:07 K: Don’t say false or true, find out.
30:11 Q: No, forced.
30:14 K: Ah, forced—of course, make an effort.
30:22 So make the mind, thought, the body mechanical.
30:31 Because the body is mechanical—you follow?—therefore as the body is mechanical it will affect the mind, therefore quieten the body, control the body, sit still, and your mind will then be also still.
30:49 They said you must have a quiet mind because if it is agitated it cannot reflect clearly that which is.
31:03 You understand? Which is Brahman, which is the highest. As a lake when the waters is very still, you can see the stars in it.
31:17 When the waters are agitated then you see nothing, therefore make the mind still—(laughs) everything contrary to what I…—you follow?
31:30 I’m just telling you what they think.
31:38 And I’ve discussed this with the Tibetan Dalai Lama.
31:47 You know who he is? ‘Ah,’ he said, after a couple of hours, ‘that’s too far, you’re far ahead of us,’ and he… (inaudible)—brushed it off.
32:01 So, either you go that way—that’s what the vast, ninety-nine point nine people do who think they are meditating, go that way, repeat, repeat, repeat.
32:22 You’ve heard of Maharishi Yogi, have you, who gives you a mantram for thirty-five dollars, or ten dollars or ten pounds, and you then… he teaches you a word or a sentence which you repeat, repeat, repeat, and so on, so on, so on.
32:44 That’s one form of meditation. I won’t go into all the…They’re all stupid. I won’t touch it. Sorry. So I’ve explained to you what the Asiatic world, which is India, originally, thinks about meditation, and in the old days, in the Brahmin family like ours, they had a special room, however poor, they had a special room in which they meditated, they did various forms of meditation, into which you could not go during the… at other times.
33:33 It was kept specially for that, so there was an atmosphere created in that room.
33:40 The father may go out and cut somebody, get angry and all the rest of it, but when he came into that room he was peaceful.
33:54 Right? Have you understood this? Are you interested in meditation?
34:13 Somebody like me comes along and says, ‘That is not meditation at all.’ And the gurus and all of them are horrified, or they say, ‘Oh, what you’re talking is the highest but not for everybody; that’s much later.’ I say, that’s not meditation; meditation is something entirely different.
34:46 Meditation implies no control whatsoever. (Laughs) This is too serious, you wouldn’t be interested in this.
35:03 You see, the mind, our minds have become like the computer.
35:19 You understand? The computer—Ted or another will tell me if I’m wrong—the computer registers what it has been told, on the tape or whatever it is, and it repeats exactly what it has been informed.
35:49 And the computer, if you tell it that this is my bucket, the computer will say it’s my bucket.
36:05 But to the human mind, when you say it is my bucket, it’s attached to it. You understand? I wonder if you understand all this. Therefore it won’t let go, whereas the computer is totally indifferent.
36:32 And if you want to know meditation, because I’ve explained to you what the Christian form of meditation is, what the Asiatic form of meditation is, which is Indian meditation, seeing all that as I have for many years, I say that’s totally wrong, that’s not the way, that’s just a form of illusion, a form of deceiving yourself that you are reaching the highest, which you have projected.
37:12 You understand? I wonder if you’re interested in all this.
37:22 All our gods, whether Christian or Hindu, are the projections of our thought—agree?
37:37 Do you see that?—whether it is Christ, various gods of the Asiatic world, are our projections, which we then worship.
37:58 Which is, I worship that which I have projected, therefore I’m worshipping myself.
38:07 You understand this? Do you see this? Oh Lord. Do you? Or does it upset you?
38:16 Q: Do you deny the existence of the world as it appears to be, unlimited... (inaudible) K: This is the good old…
38:38 You know, we said the other day, truth is different, totally divorced from reality.
38:50 We said truth is what you think about, or what thought has projected.
39:01 Listen to it, listen to it, this is tremendously—don’t...
39:05 Q: This is reality. You said truth.
39:10 K: I beg your pardon. Reality. Pardon. Mi scusi. Forgive me. Reality is that which thought thinks about, that which thought reflects upon, that which thought thinks clearly, rationally, objectively, straight.
39:42 That is also a reality. But thought, distorted thinking, leading to illusion, is also a reality.
39:53 Q: It is daily reality.
39:58 K: Yes. So, please, are you following all this?
40:08 At least intellectually follow, it doesn’t matter to you. Take it as a lesson, as a something to find out, amusing or interesting.
40:20 Because Dr Bohm the other day, Sunday, and I, we discussed this question. It’s been taped and if you want to listen to it, find out, go into it.
40:34 You follow? Reality is that which you think about, and reality is also that which thought distorted, which becomes illusion, is a reality.
40:53 So, is the world around me—the tree, that building, you, that brick, that window, the spots, those various… beautiful wood—is that an illusion?
41:12 Certainly not. The tree is not an illusion, it’s a reality. I can distort by my crooked thinking and say, ‘That is…’—what?—‘a mango tree,’ when it is a pine tree.
41:34 You’re following all this? You know, this is… This is too… The whole of the world, according to India, is an illusion, which is Maya.
41:50 (Laughs) Q: Do you mean anything which is perceivable by the mind is reality, but it’s maya?
42:05 K: No, it’s Maya. Maya means illusion. ‘Ma’, from what I’ve been told, means in Sanskrit, the root of it, measurement.
42:21 Therefore there have been philosophers who have tremendously influenced the Indian thought and Indian way of living by calling the world, the world in which we live, as an illusion.
42:39 Therefore live here casually, don’t pay too much attention to this, don’t be caught in this illusion, don’t give such tremendous value to this world, be detached, and therefore seeing the illusion of this, you won’t be caught in it, and then you will find out the highest principle.
43:07 That again is—you follow?
43:11 Q: That was their idea about it.
43:15 K: I’m telling you. So reality is that which you think about, reflect upon.
43:25 That can be reasonable, sane, or it can be unreasonable, insane.
43:35 Then that becomes an illusion. When I think I’m Napoleon it is an illusion. I am not Napoleon, but I stick to my idea that I’m Napoleon. So…
43:49 Q: But how does Napoleon, or we with our comparable little illusions, how does he get to see that he is in illusion?
43:59 K: How does…
44:00 Q: Let’s agree that Napoleon, someone who thinks that they are...
44:04 K: …Napoleon.
44:05 Q: …Napoleon, or someone who thinks… There was a woman here a month or so ago...
44:12 K: Yes. Someone who thinks he’s a piece of—that’s a lovely story, did I tell you? A woman goes to a psychiatrist and says, ‘I’m afraid for my husband because he’s always thinking he’s a cabbage.’ Q: A what?
44:32 K: A cabbage. And he said, the psychologist said, ‘Why do you bother about it, let him think that.’ She said, ‘Oh, no, I’m afraid of eating it.’ So.
44:42 Q: But if we have an illusion that we have a special way of perceiving truth, which I saw, when we had a visitor here about a month ago, caused a little stir in a meeting—upon talking to her we discovered that she thought that she could see truth better than anyone else.
45:13 K: Of course.
45:14 Q: And it was impossible to talk with her, she had divorced herself from reality.
45:18 K: That means, she or he caught in an illusion, and won’t let go, which is a neurotic state.
45:27 Now, I believe—suppose one believes in—what?—that the Virgin Mary ascended into heaven physically.
45:37 Which is one of the dogmas of the Church. And I tremendously hold that as truth. That’s my illusion. I’m caught in it. It was a projection of thought which said, ‘Virgin Mary, who is the Mother of Jesus, and all the rest of it, ascended, went up to heaven physically, whole.’ That’s an illusion created by thought thinking—what?—distortedly.
46:18 Thought can think straight, clear, reasonably, sanely, say, ‘That is a tree, not an elephant’—so, all that.
46:27 Q: When our thoughts are about things that exist in space and time, generally we can test them by going and making that comparison.
46:39 K: Quite right. That’s all.
46:42 Q: But when we have thoughts that are about things that we don’t say are in space and time, like the Virgin Mary, or truth, how do we, how can we test the...
46:59 K: I’ll show you. It’s very difficult, this. If you’re interested in it. So the problem is this: what is truth?
47:18 Can it be put into words? And if it cannot be put into words it does not exist. That’s one principle—you understand? There’s a whole—Wittgenstein and others, a great many philosophers—not that I’ve read them, not that I know them; I’m not interested in them, they bore me, but I’m just telling you—there are a great many philosophers who say that if you cannot put it into words it does not exist.
47:44 Q: And also the...
47:48 K: Just listen to it. Listen to it. What were you going to say, also?
47:52 Q: The very existence of truth to us is an assumption.
47:59 K: No, to you it’s not. I’m going into it. I don’t assume anything, I’m going into it. And to one of the great philosophers who said, ‘Words, if it cannot be put into words, it cannot exist, it is not so,’ a friend of his, in a railway carriage, as they were travelling together, said, ‘You say this, master, but can you put this into words?’ And for first time he said, ‘By Jove, there is something in that.’ (Laughs) Q: He wrote another philosophy after that.
48:37 K: Yes, he wrote another philosophy after that, contradicting the other. You know, you can play this game all the time. Now, first of all, this is a fact, this is a reality, that thought—etc.
49:05 Then what is that which is?
49:12 You understand? That which is, what is that?
49:19 Q: Truth.
49:25 K: Think a little, don’t respond too quickly, go into it a little bit.
49:36 That which is, that is, what is that?
49:46 Use your brains, go on, exercise.
49:49 Q: When you ask such a question the mind goes to make a description of it. When you ask such a question then the mind tries to look for a description of something, of whatever it is.
49:58 K: No, what is this? That is, isn’t it?
50:01 Q: Yes, and then you say the name of it.
50:03 K: No, no, not the name of it.
50:05 Q: That is what we do.
50:07 K: That which is, what is that?
50:08 Q: Are you using ‘is’ here to be in space and time?
50:17 K: Sir, this body is.
50:24 Right? It is. That is the truth. But if I attribute to that body, the name, the quality, this or that, all the projections of thought, that is the reality.
50:47 And this is… because it is, that is the truth. I wonder if you get it.
50:53 Q: Are you making a distinction between fact and truth?
51:03 K: No, fact—again—fact means—correct me, sir—that which is being done.
51:08 Q: Being made, yes.
51:12 K: Being made. Being made, not that which has been made or that which shall be made.
51:21 You understand this? Oh, come on, sir, this is fascinating if you go into it.
51:30 Are you interested in all this?
51:32 Q: Sure.
51:33 K: Tungki, are you interested in it?
51:37 Q: Yes.
51:39 K: So fact—there is a reality, truth, fact.
51:47 We say fact is that which is being made, which is being done.
51:56 Right? That is the truth. But if that which is being done is based on an idea or on a memory, or on a reward and punishment, then that which is being done is a reality.
52:21 Are you catching this?
52:23 Q: But if I go to the bank and deposit ten pounds...
52:29 K: Don’t go off into details. I’m investigating—please follow this.
52:33 Q: Are you saying a fact only exists in the present tense?
52:38 K: That’s it.
52:40 Q: That’s my question.
52:41 K: Please. The meaning of that word ‘fact’ means that which is being done, not which has been done or which will be done.
52:54 Wait, wait, I’m talking for the moment, give me… I’m the only dog that’s talking; you can have it afterwards. I say that which is being done is fact. If that fact is based on a memory, which is on a pattern which I have established and therefore doing it now, that is not a fact.
53:26 Q: What is it?
53:28 K: Watch it! Don’t ask me, please watch it. Just look at it first. If I act according to an ideal, and act according to that ideal, is that a fact?
53:49 No, don’t call it… It is not a fact. It is that... We said… Please.
53:59 Q: But it is something being done, though.
54:02 K: Wait. Something is being done, which may be an illusion, which may be a fancy, which may be imitation, conformity and all that.
54:09 Q: (Inaudible) K: No, we said, sir—please—we said—it’s really very interesting—we said that fact is that which is being made or done now.
54:23 That is the meaning of that word ‘fact’.
54:32 If I act according to what I have learnt, it’s not a fact, it is a repetition.
54:42 Or act… It’s very complex, this becomes… Then what is action? You understand? You’ve got it? Get it, let’s swim together about it, let’s go together.
55:04 Q: In doing… Do you mean to say that the moment an action or a fact is going on, then there is no perception of the mind?
55:23 K: No, no, you’re not… don’t bring in the perception of the mind. Look, Tungki, make it very simple. First we say the definition of that word ‘fact’ means that which is being made, that which is being done.
55:39 When I tap that, that is fact. But if I clap because I should clap, because you’re a great man, that’s not a fact.
55:52 I am basing the action on an idea or a memory or on a hope or reward or punishment.
56:03 Q: (Inaudible) K: Wait, listen! Therefore is there an action which is not based on yesterday or on tomorrow. You follow?
56:13 Q: Are you saying, of those things—you’re making an important distinction. In the things that do exist and manifest themselves, some of them are obviously mechanical and repetitious and predictable, but amongst that there are also some which are not of that category, and those are the facts.
56:40 You are choosing to call those facts and others...
56:41 K: I said that. We said that, sir. Fact can be made into an illusion, because if I act according to something which I’ve learnt or which is my pattern, according to a memory, computer, it is a mechanical thing, it is a fact.
57:02 But that fact leads to all kinds of mischief. We won’t go into that for the moment. So is there an action—please look at it, just play with it—is there an action which is not related to the past or to the future?
57:25 And that action is the only fact.
57:32 Right? Is there such action? You see, therefore I’m saying meditation is the discovery or the understanding of an action which is totally out of time.
58:04 Time being a movement either into the past or into the future.
58:12 And if I base my action according to the past or to the future, that action is contaminated, distorted, therefore it is not a fact which is being done now.
58:27 Right, sir? Are you following this, logically even? Therefore I have to find out if there is an action that is out of time.
58:48 And that may be the action which is non-repeatable, non-regret.
58:58 There is no regret, there is no motive; it is an action complete.
59:08 Right? Right, sir?
59:12 Q: Are you saying that you usually…
59:20 Say I’m clapping because I think you’re a great man, then I might think that the fact is that you’re a great man, while the actual fact is that I’m clapping, and that’s what I should see.
59:42 K: Yes. Which means, an action without a motive, an action that is not related to environment, to circumstances, to society, to conditioning.
59:58 Is there such an action? You understand, sir? Get excited about it; you’re all sitting there.
1:00:05 Q: If you asked a physicist that question, his immediate response would be to try and measure, measure an action of that nature.
1:00:22 K: No, but it reveals something, which is, when I put that question, is there an action which has no motive, time or all the rest of it, what takes place?
1:00:37 That is truth. I wonder if you see that. The very question is the response…
1:00:51 Out of that very question the action has come, which is out of time. Gosh, I’m hot.
1:00:58 Q: The empty space when you ask that question, as a result of that question, which is out of time?
1:01:14 K: Tungki, look, old boy. Look, Tungki, don’t get complicated, be very simple.
1:01:27 We said—sorry to repeat it—listen to it, listen, don’t go off into details, don’t say, ‘Oh, this is wrong, this is right,’ don’t… just listen—you understand?—give your attention to listening, not resisting, not saying, ‘How does this happen?’—just listen, as you would listen to a bird.
1:01:47 When you play a guitar, you know, a sound, listen to the sound. You understand? Which is, he says fact is that which is being made, done now.
1:02:06 If that which is being made, done now, is related to the past, then you’re acting according to the past, therefore it’s not a fact.
1:02:22 But also, if you are acting according to an ideal, which is the future, it is not a fact.
1:02:30 Or you’re acting out of a motive, you’re frightened of me or I’m going to reward you, then it’s not a fact.
1:02:43 Right? So what is action which has no motive, which is not related to the past or to the future? Is there such action?
1:03:02 Now, to find that out, that’s part of your meditation.
1:03:08 Q: (Inaudible) …in response to something, are reactions, and reactions are not right.
1:03:20 K: See something, sir. Those responses are according to conditioning. Therefore that conditioning is the culture in which we live, therefore it’s of time.
1:03:40 From that question of time, is there a moment… is there… can time come to an end?
1:03:50 Which is the same thing in different words.
1:03:53 Q: But, sir, such action is sensitive to the environment.
1:03:57 K: Ah, forget it. I’m not interested in its environment. It’s out of time, therefore out of circumstances, out of environment. But when that action takes place it includes everything.
1:04:12 Q: So in that sense, such action, cannot…
1:04:21 You said that it’s complete in itself, but if it includes everything and the consciousness of it includes all...
1:04:29 K: This is words again. You’ll have to be careful. Look, what is space? Are you interested in all this? What is space? There are these four walls—or how many walls now? No, sorry, there are not four walls here (laughs). There are how many walls? Octagonal.
1:04:51 Q: Eight.
1:04:52 K: Eight walls. These eight walls enclose a space. Right? Which we call a room, a hall. But these eight walls exclude the space outside. Right? Of course. Of course, my lady, don’t quibble about it. Because of that wall, there is space outside that wall.
1:05:23 Q: Because the wall has its own space.
1:05:32 K: Right? So there is space. Only in space can the wall exist. If there was no outside and inside, the wall could not exist. I wonder if you…
1:05:46 Q: Yes.
1:05:48 K: Got it, Tungki? Good. So space implies not only the space created by walls, a house—a tree can only exist because there is space.
1:06:06 If there was no space, a tree can’t exist. Right?
1:06:09 Q: Would there be space if there weren’t a tree?
1:06:13 K: What? No, sir, for God’s sake. You people. Of course. If the tree—are you asking, if there was no tree, would there be no space?
1:06:30 If there was no tree there would be no…
1:06:33 Q: Well, not only the tree but the wall...
1:06:38 K: I’m taking, sir… Just look. There is space—right? There is the space created by the walls.
1:06:49 Outside this vast space, or inside this vast space, a wall has been made which limits the space.
1:07:01 Let’s put it that way. Right?
1:07:05 Q: But doesn’t it define space, instead of creating it?
1:07:13 K: Confines space.
1:07:15 Q: No, defines.
1:07:16 K: Defines space, or confines space—both. So. And you see nothing can exist without space. And when the space is limited, like in New York, like all these big towns, when space is limited, when I am living in a small space, surrounded by lots of people, there is a reaction of violence, I want to break through, because I need space.
1:07:54 As you watch, if you watch birds sitting on a telegraph wire of an evening, see how extraordinarily they have space.
1:08:04 Have you ever watched it? The beauty of their sitting, because when they fly they must have space.
1:08:14 That’s one thing. And is there space in your mind?
1:08:26 Or is the space limited, small, and therefore being limited, small, there is violence, there is everything going on?
1:08:47 So, space, time, fact, action, and is there an end to time, is there an action which is not of time, future and the past?
1:09:24 To find this out I have to meditate.
1:09:37 Not think about it; I must see the truth of it.
1:09:44 Seeing the truth of it must be timeless. Not, ‘I will learn to see the truth.’ I wonder if you see that.
1:09:54 Q: Sir, are we asking if there is a space between two perceptions?
1:10:07 K: No, sir. I am asking if there is space in your mind. Or is your mind, your consciousness, so crowded with things, with ideas, with beliefs, with fears, with pleasures, with knowledge, with attachments and detachments, you know, filled with your technique, with yourself, you think you’re a master, a great teacher, a great artist, you know, filled, filled, filled, and therefore there’s no space?
1:10:40 And because there is no space we do all kinds of petty things—violence, anger, brutality, you know, cruelty to… everything goes on, because our minds are so petty, limited, filled with things—I am beautiful, I am not beautiful, I am this—you know?
1:11:10 So to find that out, to empty the mind of its content, that is, empty consciousness of its content, is part of this meditation.
1:11:39 So if you want to go into it, I can go into it with you, if you’re interested in it, if you’re serious.
1:11:52 This is not a childish thing, it’s not something you say, ‘Well, teach me, tell me all about it today,’ and forget it tomorrow.
1:12:03 This is your life.
1:12:10 If you don’t know mathematics or history or biology or physics, your mind is not alive.
1:12:21 If you don’t know how to draw, how to write a poem—you follow?—it is not active. Dull. But if you want to go into this, as it is your whole life—career, thought, relationship, love, everything, it is all that.
1:12:51 If you’re interested in it we can go into it, but if you don’t, don’t force yourself. It means nothing when you force yourself—‘By Jove, it sounds rather interesting, I’m going to find out,’ you can read a book about it. (Pause) So, the body, the organism is a reality, the organism is truth, but what we impose on the organism is a reality created by thought.
1:13:39 ‘I must have meat otherwise I’m not healthy’—imposed by thought according to the culture, environment, religion—that is a reality imposed on the body, and forced the body to say, ‘I cannot be healthy if I don’t eat meat.
1:14:11 I must eat meat.’ As, ‘There is a Virgin Mary who has ascended into heaven physically’—it’s as a reality, as strong as I say, ‘I must eat meat.’ You’re following this?
1:14:35 Both are beliefs and both are irrational.
1:14:42 But to find out which is the healthiest thing—because that is necessary, to keep an organism healthy, vital, strong, not sloppy and, you know, all the rest of it.
1:15:00 So find out, learn about it. Gradually scientists, health specialists, as well as nuts and cranks and neurotics are saying, ‘Don’t eat meat.’ And if you belong to that type, you don’t eat meat—that is the fashion—but if you begin to think, go into it, you may say, ‘I’ll find out, I’ll experiment on myself.’ So the organism must be kept extraordinarily healthy, like a good horse.
1:15:55 A cavalry officer looks after his horse, feeds it properly, exercises it, grooms it, you know, keeps it tremendously alive.
1:16:14 Are you interested in that? To make your body supple, alive, active, you know, sensitive.
1:16:31 You’re not interested, are you? You all look so… Will you give time to learn about it? Because time here is necessary, because you have neglected your bodies.
1:16:50 You don’t care for your bodies. You eat what is most pleasant. Not that you must eat what is most unpleasant. Your taste dictates. So will you learn to sit all the time straight, never cross your legs, you know, because that spoils the circulation.
1:17:31 You understand all this? Sit straight, have a sensitive, healthy, vital body. That’s absolutely necessary if you want to know what meditation is.
1:17:49 Because if a body is not sensitive, alive, watching, how can you watch something which demands tremendous subtlety, quickness?
1:18:05 I’m sorry I used that word ‘excellence’ the other day and gave it a wrong root meaning.
1:18:18 Mr Simmons corrected it. ‘Excellence’ comes from the word ‘cellere’—two L’s—c-e-l-l-e-r-e.
1:18:30 That means ‘to rise high’.
1:18:40 And the other is, from the same meaning, from the other, the root meaning, ‘celare’—that is, c-e-l-a-r-e.
1:18:50 That is to run, fly swiftly. Both are the same, either high or… Now, you must have an excellent body, not coarse, not heavy, not dull, insensitive—alive.
1:19:16 Can you do that? Go on, sir, learn about it, how to create such a body.
1:19:29 And to create such a body, you watch it. Whether you are eating too much, eating too little, exercising enough, whether your mind is shaping your body.
1:19:45 Your mind, which is thought, says, ‘Well, I like that food, I wish I could guzzle up the whole lot of it.’ So watch it.
1:20:00 Right, sir? You know, I happen to be 80. You understand? That is, I’m 80, and I’ve watched over it like a cat watches over a kitten or a rat, watching, watching, watching.
1:20:29 Which is not an effort, which is not a strain, which is not compulsive, which doesn’t mean I mustn’t eat this, you know, frightened—I’m just watching.
1:20:46 Therefore when I eat something which is wrong, my tummy says, ‘That’s wrong’—out it comes.
1:20:53 So you need such tremendous sensitivity, otherwise your brain becomes dull.
1:21:05 And this is part of your lesson, part of learning.
1:21:12 And therefore not only physically—how you think, what you think, why you think, why you can’t write a poem, why you’re not revolutionary.
1:21:30 I mean by revolutionary, not the people who throw bombs, who follow systems of either Marx or Lenin or Mao, those are not revolutionaries at all, they are reactionaries.
1:21:49 Revolution is something… transforming yourself, because you are the society, you are the world.
1:22:00 You follow? To have a good, clear, strong mind, and therefore it’s subtle, quick, excellent.
1:22:23 All right? See, will you do it, from today?
1:22:33 Good. You too. Will you? Good. Go to it. See how you sit, whether you can sit for an hour without a movement, ten minutes without a movement; how you eat, whether you make noise when you eat, how you hold your spoon and fork.
1:23:06 You know? Basta. Avanti. Is that enough for this morning? Good.