Krishnamurti - What silence is

Krishnamurti Subtitles

BR75DSS1.09 - What silence is
Brockwood Park, UK - 1 June 1975
Discussion with Staff and Students 1.09

0:00	This is J. Krishnamurti’s ninth discussion with teachers and students at Brockwood Park, 1975.
0:11	Krishnamurti: What shall we talk about this morning?
0:18	Questioner: Sir, you said you were going to speak to us about silence. About silence – you said last time you would speak to us about silence.
0:27	K: Do you want to speak about silence?
0:31	Q: Yes.
0:33	K: Does it really interest you, or is it a casual affair?
0:43	I wonder what you mean by silence. I’m going to ask several questions and out of that we’ll begin to see what it means.
0:57	Are you aware that you are silent?
1:07	When you are aware that you are silenced, is that silence?
1:20	Is silence between two noises?
1:27	Answer these questions.
1:36	Is silence between two notes?
1:45	Is peace between two wars?
1:53	So, to go into this question very deeply, if you want to – if you don’t, we’ll talk about other things, so we must be quite sure at the beginning that you do want to talk about it.
2:11	Do you?
2:19	Not the martial silence but something else.
2:28	I think we shall approach it by asking: what do you mean by seeing?
2:42	You say, ‘I see the tree,’ or, ‘I see you,’ or, ‘I see the clouds passing by, the blue sky.’ What do you mean by seeing, apart from the visual response of light on the eye and so on – beyond that, what do you mean by seeing?
3:11	I see you sitting there, blue trousers, grey coat, whatever you’re wearing, and you see me sitting here - what do you mean by that?
3:24	Come on, let’s talk it over together, it’s not just my... it’s not my show, it’s a dialogue.
3:43	You know what a dialogue is? A conversation, amicable conversation between two friends, not merely arguing.
3:59	Argument is offering one opinion against another.
4:06	That’s a discussion. Through discussion, opinion against opinion, we hope to come to understand what is truth, and so on - I won’t go into that either, that’s too difficult.
4:24	So what do you mean by seeing? I see this roof, I see you, I see the trees, I see the birds.
4:40	When you see, what takes place? Go on. Allez-y.
4:50	Q: Is it not only the act of seeing, the act of... (inaudible) K: The act of seeing.
5:03	Tungki, you see me and I see you. What do you mean by that word ‘seeing’?
5:10	Q: Your eyes only are stimulated by the light.
5:24	K: We said that.
5:28	Q: So then it’s sent to your cerebrum.
5:30	K: I understand, through your senses and all the rest of it. Beyond that, what do you mean by seeing?
5:36	Q: Why should we look beyond that? Why does it go beyond that?
5:42	K: Is that all, seeing?
5:44	Q: No, there’s...
5:46	Q: You’re aware.
5:48	K: I see you sitting there, light, vibration, response of memory, and so on, so on – all that – but is that only seeing, is that all implied in seeing?
6:03	Because we’re going to relate seeing, if there is a relationship between seeing and silence, we’re going to find that out.
6:12	If I don’t know how to see you silently, I don’t see you at all, do I?
6:22	Q: No, the response of memory...
6:24	K: Go slowly.
6:26	Q: It already goes beyond the eyes seeing.
6:29	K: That’s right. So I see you… I can see you only when there is silence in my mind, when there is no prejudice, no chattering, no image about you, whether you’re a friend, non-friend, Russian or communist, socialist, British, French or American – when I can look at you, silently, then only I see you.
7:01	Q: There’s an element of interpretation. There has to be because...
7:03	K: Why should there be interpretation? You say there has to be – why should there be interpretation?
7:07	Q: Because physiologically, I look at his blue pants, his blue shirt...
7:16	K: I see that.
7:18	Q: I’m saying ‘it’s blue’.
7:19	K: I say it’s blue. I said that. I say it’s blue, I say it’s a grey shirt, darkish hair or curly hair, whatever it is – I see that.
7:28	Q: That is interpretation of the... (inaudible) K: Now, so if my mind is chattering: ‘It’s a blue shirt, I don’t like it, I like the grey shirt or...’ – proceed, proceed, that’s what I’m saying – as long as my mind is chattering, whether that chattering takes the form of an opinion, a judgement, evaluation, I like, dislike, fear, and all the rest of it, I’m not seeing you.
7:55	My mind is chattering therefore there is no seeing.
7:59	Q: It’s just opinion.
8:04	K: I’ve said that, I’ve said that.
8:12	Right? Do we go along so far? So I can only see you when my mind is fairly quiet. Right?
8:23	Q: What do you mean by see you?
8:27	K: We’re going to... Go slowly, sir.
8:29	Q: It’s something apart from you?
8:31	K: I’m going to go into it. We’re going to. I see you. Now, I see you – the grey trousers, the blue shirt, tie, a sweater, a coat, a face which I recognise because I’ve seen it before, a certain colour of hair, nose, and all the rest - the form.
8:57	And with the form associated with a name. The name, because it has got certain associations, is British, not French or Italian or Russian, and so on.
9:14	So if my mind is occupied with all that then I’m only seeing the form.
9:22	I don’t see what is inside. I go outside and look at this hall, but to see the whole structure I must not only see the outside but also I must go inside.
9:41	So, to see something – the tree, the cloud, the mountain, the bird, the sky, and you – the mind must be fairly quiet; that’s obvious.
9:57	Right? Would you say? Now, is your mind quiet when you see her or him, or is it chattering?
10:14	Go on, find out. And are you aware that it is chattering – opinion, judgement, evaluation, like, dislike; oh, he’s my friend, he’s not my friend – you know – girl, nice-looking girl; long hair, short hair – you follow?
10:29	Or do you look: the form, the shape, the colour, and move from that further?
10:45	You are following? Are you doing it? And to move further inside, your mind needs to be quiet.
10:59	Bene? Are we agreed? Not verbally – don’t agree with me verbally. Either it is so or it is not so. So, to see something clearly, without distortion, my mind must be quiet, without interpretation, and so on.
11:36	Can you do that? When you see the speaker sitting on this platform, can you look at the form – the form, the body, the shape – and go inside, as it were, as you go inside a house, inside this hall – you have seen it from the outside, now you look at it from the inside.
12:06	And you wanted to know what silence is, to talk about it.
12:15	Right? Whoever asked that question, I’ve forgotten, it doesn’t matter. Now, you must find out what silence means and why should there be silence.
12:27	Why did you sit silently before I came in here? Why? Was it a habit, a tradition, somebody asked you to sit quietly and therefore you sit quietly, not talking?
12:59	And were you aware that you were silent?
13:08	Nelson? You were aware?
13:12	Q: Yes.
13:13	K: And when you are aware, is that silence? You know what’s implied in awareness? I’m aware you’re sitting there. I’m conscious of you, with your shirt, all the rest of it, and am I aware, in the same way, that I’m silent?
13:49	If I am so aware, is there not a division, a separation between the one who says, ‘I am silent,’ and silence?
14:03	Are you following this? No? It’s a little bit... Go slowly, I’m going to repeat it several times. Get into it. We’re discussing, this is not a talk by me.
14:19	Q: But can there be just the state of awareness, not somebody being aware of silence?
14:25	K: We’re going to go into that, Nelson, we’ll find out. If I am aware of you, or if I am aware that I am silent, there is, is there not, a division, a separation, between the one who thinks he is silent and silence?
14:54	Right? There is a division between the observer and the observed.
15:04	Right? Right? You’ve understood that? So is that silence? (Pause) Do discuss, talk about it.
15:31	Let’s talk about it.
15:41	You know, when I look at that tree – I’m sorry to take that tree everlastingly; that’s a good example though – I look at that tree.
15:51	There is a distance between the observer and the observed.
16:00	Right? The distance is time – right? – a movement from here to there. Right? And so there is a separation between the observer and the observed.
16:19	The observer says, ‘I like that tree. It is a cypress,’ it is a pine, it is an oak. The word separates the observer from the observed.
16:36	Please, this is really very important to learn. Learn about it, not accept what I’m saying but learn about it. So this division, outwardly and inwardly, brings about a great deal of trouble, a great deal of mischief – I am a Hindu, I am a Muslim, I am a Christian, I am a communist, I am a Buddhist – oh God - you follow? – and you are not.
17:13	So there is a division between the observer and the observed, and so where there is division there must be conflict: the Arab, the Jew, the Hindu, the Muslim, the communist, the community – you follow? - all that.
17:33	Division must invariably bring about conflict. Right? Now, am I aware that I’m silent – division – you follow?
17:52	And is that silence? So I say, is it silence between two notes, between two noises, between two quarrels?
18:20	Is peace between two wars? So, is it silence when there is a division between the observer and the observed, or is it not silence at all?
18:52	Silence means complete silence, not ‘I am silent’. I don’t know… you get it?
18:57	Q: Can I ask a question about the tree? In observing the tree, there seems to be an awareness of the tree and simultaneously there seems to be an awareness of the body.
19:17	Is that the confusion?
19:20	K: I don’t quite follow.
19:23	Q: In observing the tree there seems to be at the same time an awareness of one’s own body.
19:30	K: Yes, one’s own body and the tree – there is a division.
19:31	Q: So that’s a division?
19:35	K: I am saying, sir, asking, where there is division there must be not only conflict - various other incidents, influences, everything takes place.
19:51	When the observer says, ‘I am silent,’ as though something, silence is apart from him, as the observer, then I’m asking you, is that silence?
20:05	Q: No.
20:06	K: Are you quite sure?
20:11	Q: Yes, because...
20:14	K: Go into it, look into it, experiment with it, observe it.
20:19	Q: Maybe there cannot be silence when there’s duality, because one tries to impose on the other.
20:29	K: That’s right. That’s right. So where there is an awareness of silence, you’re not silent. It’s like saying, ‘I am very humble.’ (Laughs) It sounds silly!
20:51	So silence means a movement or a state or a something in which the observer is the observed.
21:04	Got it? No, please, this is very difficult because one has to go very, very deeply into this question, if you’re interested in it, that all our life, all our education, everything is this division.
21:25	You follow?
21:26	Q: Krishnaji, where does recognisation come in? From the time that I see that it is a tree, that’s a tree, and the time that I say, ‘Well, I don’t like the shape of that tree,’ and, ‘it’s a pine,’ or whatever – where does the difference between when I recognise something and then... (inaudible) K: Can you look at a tree without the word?
21:58	Listen to it quietly. First listen, don’t agree or disagree but just listen. Can you look at that tree without a word, without like and dislike, without saying something about it botanically, emotionally, and so on – just, can you look at it without the movement of thought?
22:32	Right? Thought being the word – right? - the symbol, the picture, the interpretation, like and dislike, prejudice, all that, that is the movement of thought.
22:51	And we said the other day, thought is a movement in time.
22:59	Now, when there is a movement of thought in time, there is separation.
23:11	Right? So, silence means a quality of mind in which the observer is non-existent.
23:25	Which means the observer is the observed.
23:29	Q: Sir, could you elaborate a little bit on when you see something, is it to do with the conscious thinking?
23:47	Because when we look at a tree, we unconsciously recognise it as a tree and we don’t dwell with that, it’s so familiar.
23:57	If we looked out the window and saw a dinosaur, quite a different...
24:01	K: Of course.
24:02	Q: ...thought would be stimulated by that. So the perception of the tree is so familiar a subject but it nevertheless is there. So is it that you are saying the chattering and process of thought goes on in the conscious mind – that’s what you’re talking about, or is it deeper, so that there is no recognition whatsoever?
24:22	K: No, no. My Lord! You know what it means to recognise? Recognisant, to be cognisant again.
24:41	Right, sir? To recognise implies that you have known it already. I recognise you because I saw you yesterday, I talked to you yesterday.
24:59	So the memory of you of yesterday, through that memory I recognise you.
25:09	That’s a conscious process, isn’t it? Memory, the response of that memory as recognition, as Alan, and I say, ‘Yes, that’s...’ Q: But is this also different when you say…
25:22	Also there’s the observer and the observed, that I am recognising you.
25:34	K: I understand. I’m going to answer it. I understand. Have you ever questioned who is the observer?
25:46	Is this too difficult?
25:47	Q: No.
25:48	K: Does it amuse you? Is it fun, or is it becoming too serious, you’re getting bored with it?
26:00	Have you ever asked who is the observer? I observe you. Who is the entity that is observing you? I observe Philip and I say, ‘Yes, he is Philip, Patterson’s son, Ojai’ – associations, nice weather, nice climate, orange trees, flowers, blossom, mountains – you follow?
26:36	– sunshine, light, the perfume of the… filled the valley, and so on, so on, so on, so on.
26:44	So the observer – right? – is the past.
26:51	Are you getting it?
26:59	I observe you, Philip, and I’ve known you, which is the past, memory, and the memory says, that’s Philip.
27:07	So, the observer is the past, with all the memory, associations, all that.
27:17	That past not only recognises you but that past says, ‘Oh, I like you,’ ‘I don’t like you.’ So I’m asking whether you can observe without the past.
27:37	Q: (Inaudible) K: Do listen. Listen, experiment with it, go into it, for fun, just to...
27:56	Now, you hear a great deal of pop music don’t you, or you hear a great deal of some kind of music, classical music.
28:08	This morning I was hearing Mozart and yesterday morning I listened to Michelangeli playing – what was it?
28:23	Q: Debussy.
28:26	K: Debussy, playing Debussy, Children’s Corner.
28:33	Now, there was only an act of listening, not saying, ‘Yes, I heard that in Pasdeloup in Paris with some friends,’ and association - you follow?
28:46	Just to listen. Which is not a conscious process of recognition, association, and so on, it is just an act, a total act of listening.
29:06	Q: But there is still this conscious… No?
29:11	K: Ah, no. You try, you try. Now, Nelson, listen. Try this, listen to this. I’m saying – listen carefully, give your whole attention to it – I said the observer is the past.
29:33	Listen, don’t agree or disagree. The observer is the past, the observer is the tradition, the habit, the memory responding.
29:50	All that is the past, the remembrances, all that is the observer.
30:01	Have you listened to that statement without drawing a conclusion about it?
30:11	Q: I don’t know what conclusion can I draw.
30:20	K: Conclusion means an idea. Now I say to you – will you listen? – I say to you that’s a microphone. Can you look at it?
30:39	Because when I say, ‘That’s a microphone,’ you know the meaning of that word, we both are saying the same thing.
30:46	We don’t say ‘an elephant’ – then you say, ‘What are you talking about, crazy.’ We both know that’s a microphone, you have listened to that word very carefully, and that is a verbal, conscious communication to you… with you… to you.
31:08	Now, apart from that listening, can you listen without the word?
31:16	Just complete attention without the word. Can you? Or do you think it’s all rubbish, not worth bothering about?
31:32	Because you see, most wars, most antagonisms arise because we cling to our past heredity, past memories, past traditions, and we don’t go beyond our conditioning.
31:56	You are a Jew, I’m an Arab, and I won’t listen to you because I’m heavily burdened with my belief, with my patriotism, with my nationality, with my God, and you are too.
32:16	So we are at each other; we never listen. Therefore, to listen implies freedom from the past, the observer.
32:30	I wonder if you are getting all this.
32:38	Right? So there must be freedom to observe.
32:44	Q: Also, as you say, there is the microphone and when you say, ‘Look at this microphone,’ and I know the knowledge, what does the microphone do, am I associating with the past also?
33:00	K: Of course.
33:01	Q: But I know the function of it.
33:02	K: Of course. You are associating. When I say ‘microphone’, all the things arise out of it.
33:05	Q: But the function of the microphone. I cannot say, ‘Well, this is a microphone,’ and… (inaudible) K: Of course, of course. I said, can you look at it without the word? Just look. Can you look if you are a Christian or whatever you are – I hope you’re not – if you’re a Christian or a Hindu or whatever you are, can you look at me who is a Muslim or a communist without any association, just look?
33:45	You follow?
33:52	Which means you have not only to observe consciously, to the shape, to the form, to the tradition, to all that, but also putting aside all that to look.
34:05	Q: Putting your own background aside?
34:08	K: Of course, put away your background, slough it off.
34:10	Q: That means not being a Christian or...
34:15	K: Nothing – just look. You’re a human being, not a label. It is the labels – I’m a Hindu, you’re a Muslim or something else – and we’re at each other’s throats.
34:35	Q: But also this is not somebody saying, ‘Well, I’m going to put all my beliefs aside, I am not going to be a Christian.’ What is ‘I’?
34:45	K: Of course, that’s much more complex. I don’t want to go into that for the moment. We went into it the other day. What is ‘you’? Remember, we talked about it? Is it the colour of your hair? Are you the hair, the face, the body? Go into it, sir, find out. So, we are saying silence implies a state of mind in which there is no duality – to use your word – in which there is no division as the observer and the observed.
35:41	And further on, if you want to go deeply into it, there is only the state of observation, there is only a state of seeing, not the observer says, ‘I see.’ Q: Then what is the difference between thinking and...
35:58	K: I’ll show it to you. If you have understood that, we can go further. All right. Take something: you know what greed is, don’t you – we all know that – or jealousy or envy?
36:22	Is your greed different from the observer?
36:31	I’ll explain, don’t be... go into it slowly.
36:43	I say, ‘I am greedy’ – is that greed different from me?
36:53	‘I am angry’ – is that anger separate from me?
37:01	Or ‘the me’ is that anger, ‘the me’ is that greed.
37:12	Q: It isn’t greed...
37:17	K: When I say I’m greedy, I give it a name because I have associated with that feeling a certain word – right? – which is the past, which is me, and I say...
37:38	So, when I am greedy, that greed is me. If you separate it, ‘I am not that greed,’ then you try to conquer it, then you rationalise it, then you say, ‘It is right to be greedy.
37:55	If I am not greedy, I’ll be destroyed in this civilisation. I must be greedy, I must be competitive, I must be this, I must be that’ – as long as your greed is separate from yourself.
38:13	Can we go along?
38:14	Q: Is it separate or we make it separate?
38:19	K: We make it separate. Why do we make it separate?
38:29	Why do we separate ourselves from anger?
38:36	And you say, ‘I mustn’t be angry,’ or ‘It was right to be angry, he hit me, he said something unpleasant, it made me angry’ – why do we make this division?
38:49	Q: We usually separate things which we don’t like.
38:55	K: Look at it – why?
39:06	Is it because you don’t know what to do with greed and therefore you separate it, hoping thereby that in the separation you can act upon it?
39:24	You’re following this?
39:31	I am greedy, and I don’t know how to go beyond greed.
39:40	Because I see greed does terrible things to me – I’m fighting, anxious, fearful, frightened I may lose, I might not…
39:51	– I’m frightened and I don’t know what to do with it, therefore I separate it and say, ‘Well…’ - I then can act on that greed, I can do something about it, suppress it, control it, go beyond it, rationalise it, explain it away – I can do something.
40:14	You’ve got it?
40:22	Then when I realise greed is me, I can’t do anything. Right? Have you come to that point?
40:39	When I see anger is me, greed is me, envy, I am that, I’m not separate from that.
40:51	Right? Then what happens? You’ve understood? Before, I acted upon greed; before, I acted upon anger; before, I acted upon jealousy, and so on.
41:09	When all that is me, what am I to do? You understand, Tungki?
41:16	Q: I can’t do anything.
41:20	K: If you can’t do anything, what takes place?
41:29	(Laughs) If you really can’t do anything, what has happened?
41:35	Q: Wanting to do something was greed.
41:42	K: Before – listen, sir – before, you were in the habit or tradition or displacement about greed, you did something, acted upon it, and that gave you a certain energy, that gave you a certain sense of doing something about it, because society says you mustn’t be greedy, religion said you mustn’t be greedy, education, and so on – you were doing something about it.
42:14	But when you realise you are it – it’s a game, you’re it! – then what happens?
42:27	You can’t do anything.
42:29	Q: You’re caught up into it.
42:32	K: You are that. You’re not caught up in it, you are that. Then what happens?
42:40	Q: You’re learning?
42:45	K: Find out. Find out. Learn about it. That’s part of our education, not just mathematics and geography and philosophy or whatever you’re studying, this is more important than the other.
43:04	That is necessary, but this is tremendously important.
43:12	What happens to something I can’t do… something about it?
43:19	Does it exist? If I can’t do anything about it, does greed exist?
43:44	I am jealous of you – right? – you’re nicer looking, long hair, blond hair, taller, brighter, more alive, more intellectual, more this, more beautiful – you know – I’m jealous of you.
44:01	I’m jealous of you because I’m comparing myself with you.
44:08	Right? So the reaction to comparison is a form of jealousy.
44:21	Now, if I don’t compare myself with you, what happens?
44:36	Q: You’re not jealous.
44:37	K: What happens? I’m not jealous. Right? If I accept my face as it is, it’s as it is, then what?
44:57	(Laughs) It’s only when I compare myself with you, who are more this, that and the other, then I’m dissatisfied with what I am – frightened, nervous, anxious, fearful, all that.
45:17	So when I can’t do anything about greed, because I am that greed, what happens?
45:35	Q: You become insecure?
45:37	K: I don’t become insecure. What happens? Look, I just now said to you, Philip, look. You weren’t listening, sorry. I compare myself with you: you are brighter, taller, more beautiful, more this and more that.
45:57	Comparison means measurement. Measuring myself with you, I become anxious, I am jealous, I am frightened, I am this.
46:08	When I don’t compare myself with you – you understand? – there is no jealousy. There is no jealousy. You’ve understood? In the same way, when I am greedy, not greed is a separate something from me, then there is freedom from the very word which is derogatory, which has got all kinds of associations of ‘should be’, ‘should not be’ – you follow? – all that.
46:56	So I’m free of all that.
47:06	Do you see this? Please learn about it. For goodness sake, you’re young, learn about it, don’t get set in your ways.
47:17	This is the time to learn, to change to...
47:24	Right? So, come back. Silence means the observer is not.
47:38	You’ve heard about meditation, haven’t you, some of you?
47:52	Every person who meditates wants this silence.
48:00	Therefore he says, that silence is over there and I’m going to get it. You understand? Which is, I am not silent, and it’s over there, and I must train myself to be silent in order to get that.
48:26	So I am comparing – listen carefully – I am comparing my noise to that which is silent.
48:35	So when there is no comparison, what takes place?
48:42	You should go into all this. I don’t know if you see the beauty of this thing. So, go back to something: we said yesterday, the other time we met here, there is the art of listening.
49:08	Right? We said ‘art’ means to put everything in its right place – not painting pictures and drawing – art, the meaning of that word, the root meaning of that word means to put things where it belongs, which is order.
49:37	And in order there is beauty. Right, so there is the art of seeing… no, listening – that we discussed.
49:48	Now we’ve discussed, gone into, the art of seeing.
49:56	Right?
49:56	Q: Is there a distinction? What was the distinction between the two?
50:05	Q: The difference between seeing and listening?
50:08	Q: No, is there…
50:12	K: I’ll tell you. There is no difference if you are completely attentive.
50:21	You see... you listen, you see, you learn.
50:32	Everything is then in the right place, where everything belongs.
50:46	So I’m saying, to look at it, first the art of listening. If you know what it means to listen to somebody, with your heart, with your mind, listen, in that listening there is no division as the observer who listens and listening to something – there is the total act of listening.
51:18	In the same way, there is the art of seeing.
51:29	Then there is the art of learning.
51:38	We have divided these three: art of listening, the art of seeing, the art of learning – divided - because if you can give your whole attention, the art of listening, art of seeing, art of learning, is all one act.
52:00	But as you don’t know enough about it, we are separating it: art of listening, art of seeing, art of learning.
52:14	We have talked about the first two, the art of listening and the art of seeing.
52:21	Now, the art of learning. Are you learning or only merely listening?
52:42	This is an educational centre, a beautiful place.
52:51	You can only learn when you’re free - and we went into the whole question of freedom.
52:58	And you can only learn when the place is suitable, happy surroundings.
53:07	Learning. So, what does it mean to learn?
53:21	Are you tired?
53:28	No? You’re sure? May I go on? Is it fun for you, for me to go on? (Laughs) Or you’re enjoying it yourself too?
53:45	What do you mean by learning? You’re learning mathematics. From Mr Joe and Mr Harsh, you’re learning mathematics.
53:59	What do you mean by learning? Come on, sir, you are doing it every day, tell me – I don’t know what it means.
54:12	Q: It means you’re storing up information. It seems to be you’re storing up information.
54:23	K: So you are receiving information, are you, from somebody who is fully informed?
54:34	The man who is fully informed becomes the teacher, the educator.
54:41	What is the educator? The man, according to you, is one who is fully informed about that particular subject.
54:58	So you are absorbing his information, or information about that subject – not his - the collective information, written in a book (laughs) and he’s transmitting it to you.
55:18	Is that all of what you call learning? And helping you to pass some beastly exams in order to get a little job?
55:31	Is that what he’s doing?
55:39	Q: But is that learning? I don’t think it is learning. I would call it studying but not learning.
55:43	K: All right, you call it studying, studying a particular subject through the help of another. Which is, you’re memorising or collecting information as memory, collecting in your brain… the brain cells are collecting information about mathematics.
56:05	You call that study, you call that learning. The same thing; stick to it for the moment. Right? Is that all of what you’re learning?
56:20	Q: (Inaudible) K: Then what are you learning?
56:30	Then what is learning, apart from that? Which is accumulation of knowledge, stored in the brain, and responding to life according to that, what you have learnt.
56:43	Q: Can you learn through experience?
56:48	K: We’ll come to that, we’ll come to that. Learn through experience. First see, can you… are you... what is happening to you when you are collecting information, that information is stored in the brain as memory, and you go out in life and respond according to what you have gathered as information.
57:20	A computer – you’re not as good as a computer but you’re a computer, mechanical.
57:31	Right? You improve the mechanism, make it a little more polished, function smoothly and efficiently, and get a better job and climb, and all that – all that’s involved in that gathering information.
57:48	Is that what you call learning, making your mind more and more automatic, more and more mechanical, and conditioned to function in a certain way?
58:05	If you are a chemist, if you’re interested in chemistry, gathering all the information about chemistry, and adding more – you follow?
58:22	– keep moving, always in that, in that area, because that gives you a job, money, house, wife, children, so-called security.
58:38	And you call... is that all learning? I’m not saying that is not learning; I’m asking you, is that all?
58:45	Q: It seems like a change takes place as well.
58:54	K: Change within that area. Of course, otherwise you’re a dead duck. (Laughs) You learn more.
59:01	Q: It’s more subtle than that. If I talk to someone and I learn something...
59:08	K: Wait, I’m going to go slowly into it. So what do you mean by learning?
59:13	Q: Can it be said, exploration, to explore?
59:17	K: No, just… I said to you, we’re asking each other, we said learning is accumulation of information stored in the brain as knowledge, which can act efficiently, skilfully when called upon.
59:37	Right? Now, that’s one... Is that all? What is ‘more’, what is implied more in learning?
59:46	Q: It is one aspect of learning.
59:49	K: I said that, old boy - that’s one aspect. One window doesn’t make the house, or a wall doesn’t make a house – you need four walls.
1:00:09	And when we emphasise only one wall, as you are doing, as most educationalists are doing, then you’re – you follow? – just a wall.
1:00:23	Good God! So learning implies learning about the whole… all the walls, which is learning about all of life.
1:00:39	Right? All of life, not just one aspect of life.
1:00:48	Learning about seeing, listening, about love, about death, about relationship – everything is implied in that learning.
1:01:02	And learning about yourself, not according to somebody, not according to some philosopher, psychologist, analyst and so on, or the priest; learning about yourself as you are.
1:01:26	Are you doing that? Or you’re only content to learn about one thing, one wall, one window, one aspect of life, and nothing else.
1:01:44	Q: I’m not learning here.
1:01:50	K: You’re not learning – why? Why are you not learning about the other aspects?
1:02:01	The other aspects are so complex, so diversified, so enormous – why aren’t you learning about it?
1:02:15	Come on, sir, answer it. You mean to say nobody can teach you about the others, can’t discuss, have a dialogue with you?
1:02:32	Or you don’t want to learn?
1:02:35	Q: That seems more to the point, that we just don’t want to.
1:02:46	K: You don’t want to learn, because that’s more difficult, that demands energy, that demands your enquiry, that you must be curious, you must have energy, you must be interested, you must give attention, and you say, ‘Oh, for God’s sake, that’s too much, I’d rather go out and play.’ So, if you don’t want to learn, but only learn about one aspect of life, you have it.
1:03:21	If you demand it you will have it.
1:03:30	You demand – what? – I don’t know what – weekends, don’t you? You demand something, don’t you? And you’ll fight for it, you’ll make mischief about it, quarrel and throw things and become violent if you don’t get it.
1:03:48	But here you are, in a lovely place, quiet, have freedom.
1:03:56	When you have freedom you can learn, learn about not one aspect but the total of life, the totality of existence – what it means to die, what it means to be free from fear, what are all the religions about, whether they are something rubbish, invented by priests and by thought.
1:04:35	You follow? If you want to learn you have a marvellous opportunity.
1:04:45	If you want to learn about yoga – do you? Some of you do – there are people here who will teach you, go into it.
1:04:55	But you say, ‘Oh for God’s sake, that means getting up at six o’clock, I’m too tired, I’m too bored, what the heck am I…’ So, as I said to you the other day, when you are disorderly, you then create authority which makes you orderly.
1:05:25	You are creating authority. We don’t want authority here, but you, because you live a life of disorder, you are demanding authority.
1:05:42	So if you say, ‘I want to learn,’ learn about beauty, what love means, what experience means, if there is a God, if there is no God, if God is dead, or if only your mind exists…
1:06:13	Q: Some while earlier you said learn about yourself.
1:06:23	K: Yes.
1:06:25	Q: Can we go into more...
1:06:28	K: I’ll go into anything you want, old boy, it’s my life. I’ve spent fifty years at this.
1:06:38	Not for profit – you understand? Now, I said to you... we had a talk about seeing – listen carefully – we talked about listening, we talked about seeing.
1:07:01	Now you say to me: how am I to look at myself?
1:07:06	Q: Not emphasising the observer and the observed.
1:07:09	K: Wait, I’m going to. Go into it very, very slowly so that it soaks into you. You know how a river is formed? Have you ever seen the birth of a river? Have you ever seen the Rhine, or the Rhone in Switzerland begin?
1:07:33	Drop by drop, and it begins, gathers water, rushes, then it has tremendous volume behind it.
1:07:43	You must have volume, which means energy. Sorry, I’m… Now, how am I to learn about myself?
1:07:59	It is important to learn about yourself, isn’t it?
1:08:11	Why? Why should you learn about yourself? You say, ‘I want to learn and I’m not learning here.’ Here I am. I’m offering you something. Learn about it. Don’t say nobody’s helping you to learn here. I’m saying to you, learn about yourself. To learn about yourself you must look at yourself. Right? And how do you look at yourself? Begin there – how do you look at yourself? Do you look at yourself through comparison with another? Or through, say... or you have an ideal and that ideal dictates how you look at yourself?
1:09:09	Come on, sir.
1:09:10	Q: I don’t know actually how to look, because the word itself already implies...
1:09:24	I mean, when you say it, it implies that there is me looking at myself.
1:09:30	K: I’m asking you, Tungki, how do you look at yourself?
1:09:45	I look at myself and I say, ‘By Jove, I’m ugly, I shouldn’t be this.’ Q: So there is somebody who is looking and saying that exactly.
1:09:59	K: That’s just it.
1:10:01	Q: But I still...
1:10:04	K: Take my hand, have patience. Listen carefully, Nelson, you’ll see a great deal. Un peu de patience, on peut faire tout, n’est-ce-pas?
1:10:24	Bien. I want to learn about myself. Why should I learn about myself? Answer my question. You haven’t answered that question. Why should I learn about myself? Nobody does – right? – they just trot along, you know, caught up in the rat race or whatever it is, and then say, ‘Why should I learn about myself.
1:10:54	I’m all right, Jack, you’re all right, how am I?’ (Laughs) You follow?
1:11:01	I’m asking you, why should you learn about yourself – tell me.
1:11:09	Why should you learn about yourself? This is part of learning, isn’t it? Tell me, why should you learn about yourself?
1:11:17	Q: Does there have to be a reason?
1:11:21	K: First, there must be a reason, then you can discharge the reason, throw it out of the window, but find out.
1:11:30	Q: Say I am unhappy… that unhappiness - if I can understand the unhappiness...
1:11:39	K: No, wait a minute, lady, wait a minute. I’m asking you: why should you learn about yourself?
1:11:43	Q: Because it’s the most important thing there is for me right now.
1:11:50	Because, for me, myself is the most important thing.
1:11:57	K: What is... Yes. You say, ‘I’m the most important thing in the world.’ Are you?
1:12:04	Q: No, not at all, but for me, myself...
1:12:07	K: That means what?
1:12:08	Q: ...assumes a huge importance.
1:12:09	K: Wait. So I should learn... We are saying, why is it important to learn about oneself? Are you yourself... is not yourself the world?
1:12:31	And the world is you, isn’t it? Are you sure? (Laughs) Learn about it.
1:12:46	If I want to understand what is going on in this murderous world, in this insane world, corrupt world, and I look at it, killing going on, wars are going on, brutality, cruelty, violence, everything is happening; prices are soaring, there is a whole part of the world that is starving.
1:13:17	I was told the other day when that Indian lady was here, in Madras there is no water, and they buy water.
1:13:31	The richer you are the more water you have, and the poorer you are, less, no water.
1:13:39	Oh, you people! So, you are the world. Right? Be quite sure that is so. And you – not you, you’ve just begun – the older people have created this world.
1:14:00	Right? Your parents, your grandparents, my parents, they have created this world, and I’m part of that world.
1:14:09	If I want to understand that world, I must understand myself. Bene? You’ve got it? Vous avez bien compris? Bien. So I am the world – and not verbally, intellectually or... it is a fact.
1:14:29	That is the truth.
1:14:37	And if I want to change that, I must change here. And I want to change that. When babies are being killed, when the bombs are being thrown and innocent people are getting murdered, butchered, legs blown off, I have to do something.
1:15:08	I am the world, therefore to understand the world and to change the world, I must understand myself, I must change myself.
1:15:16	Right? You’ve got that? Let’s proceed. You know, you haven’t seen things, appalling things that are happening.
1:15:32	I won’t go into all that. So, it is important that I learn about myself because I am the world, not because I am separate, individual, all by himself in a little corner.
1:15:49	I am the whole world, because I have created this world, and I’m the result of this world.
1:15:58	Right? Do you see this? Actually; as actually as you see that carpet. It’s not an idea, that carpet. That carpet is there. So I must learn about myself. Right? If I learn about myself according to some psychologist, that psychologist is me.
1:16:35	So why should I learn through him, when I am here? You follow? You understand this? So I discard authority in learning about myself. Have you understood this? So I now must learn how to look at myself.
1:17:01	Q: But I haven’t understood when you say, ‘The psychologist is me.’ K: That psychologist has learnt a technique, has learnt more information than me about myself, or about himself.
1:17:19	He’s learnt and he’s passing that on to me. So if I learn according to him, I’m not learning about myself.
1:17:35	I must look at myself. When I look at myself I see he’s like me. I can invent those theories.
1:17:43	Q: And when you say, ‘I am the world,’ you’re saying that there’s greed in the world, there’s violence, there’s aggressiveness – I’m all that.
1:17:57	K: Aren’t you? Jealous, frightened, wanting your personal security, wanting position, prestige. You follow? So, I have to look at myself to learn about myself.
1:18:15	So I’m not going to learn through somebody. I am not going to say, ‘My guru is going to teach me about myself.’ I say, ‘Go and climb a tree.’ I want to learn about myself and I see the reason, the logic, the necessity, the urgency to learn about myself.
1:18:42	Q: Is it more difficult for a person who has more wealth to learn about himself?
1:18:51	K: Oh no, he can learn about himself whether he’s poor or rich, if he wants to.
1:18:58	The rich man has a little more difficulty because he’s so – you follow? – all the rest of it. But any man who wants to learn about himself can learn about it, whatever his position, whether he’s prime minister or a cook or an engineer or anything.
1:19:16	So, to learn about myself I must look at myself.
1:19:23	Right? Do I learn about myself by looking in the mirror?
1:19:34	Go on – do I?
1:19:41	I learn part of myself: I’ve got short hair, long nose, short nose, bright eyes, curious shape of head, or partially not completely full head, and so on – I can learn about myself observing in the mirror.
1:19:55	Right?
1:19:56	Q: Krishnaji, by looking at yourself in the mirror, can you know... can’t you have an image of yourself?
1:19:58	K: I’m coming...
1:19:59	Q: You have an image, but you were saying, ‘Because I have dark hair, I may be more handsome or less handsome,’ or because I’m a…
1:20:14	K: Yes, that’s right. I can look in the mirror and see the form of myself: the face, the nose, the eyes, the hair, the head.
1:20:30	Now please listen carefully. Is there a mirror that reflects what I am inwardly, inside the skin?
1:20:45	You follow, Nelson? I know there is a mirror outside there in which I can look.
1:20:51	Q: Relationship.
1:20:53	K: That’s it. That boy has learnt the lesson. So there is a mirror, which is relationship.
1:21:04	Q: It’s not… because with whom you relate...
1:21:11	K: It doesn’t matter. I said relationship, not with who, with a particular person.
1:21:20	Q: So then you’re learning from your actions...
1:21:26	K: Do watch it. Watch. There is a mirror outside, on the dressing table; I can look at myself.
1:21:37	And is there a mirror, inwardly, which will show me what I am?
1:21:46	And I say there is a mirror. He pointed out, Nelson pointed out there is a mirror. That mirror is relationship, in which I’m reflected.
1:21:58	There is a reflection of me in my relationship – right?
1:22:05	– how I treat you, what I say to you, how I talk to you, how I react to you. So there is – this is important, please learn for yourself – there is a mirror outside in which I can see myself, and there is a mirror inside which is the mirror of relationship.
1:22:27	Q: Krishnaji, can I take a specific case, what is happening at Brockwood? They put a glass over things for one day and certain persons just come and take the...
1:22:41	(inaudible) K: The whole lot!
1:22:44	Q: Yes, and take it to their room.
1:22:48	K: That’s it, you learn from that.
1:22:50	Q: No, but how is this person going to learn when there’s no relationship?
1:22:58	It just has to come and…
1:23:01	K: Wait, we’ll find out. We’ll come to that, we’ll come to that. Begin with the fundamental issue and then we’ll come to the details. You understand? See the totality first and then work out the details.
1:23:19	What does the architect do? Because he has built so many houses, he imagines a house, it is there in his eyes, in his mind, and then he draws it.
1:23:35	Because he has a general picture of it, then he can go detailed. But if you don’t have the general picture, don’t begin with the detail, you never come to the general.
1:23:45	A spoke of a wheel is not the wheel.
1:23:55	Right? You must see the whole and then add spoke after spoke. Right? So in the same way, look at this problem. It’s time to stop, isn’t it?
1:24:10	Q: Not quite.
1:24:12	K: Not quite?
1:24:13	Q: Six minutes.
1:24:14	K: Six minutes? Right. Do you want to go on with this?
1:24:18	Q: Yes.
1:24:19	K: There is a mirror outside in which I see myself. That’s part of me. And there is a mirror in relationship in which I see myself: my reactions, my thoughts, my activities, my hopes, my fears, my love.
1:24:45	I learn in relationship with you what I am.
1:24:53	Right? So relationship becomes tremendously important. So I must learn what it means to be related.
1:25:11	Got it? We’ll go into that another time because it’s not… you’ve had enough, you get tired.
1:25:22	So this morning we said… somebody asked, what does it mean to be silent?
1:25:34	We said silence… there is silence only when you understand it is not the cessation of noise, it is not between two notes, it is not when the mind stops chattering, a short interval and then chatters - silence is that quality of mind when the observer is not.
1:26:12	He doesn’t know he is silent.
1:26:20	If you say, ‘I’m going to be humble’ and – you follow? – pretend to be humble, you have no humility. Right?
1:26:27	Q: There is a subtlety where, say, in this room, it seems to cease down and be silent.
1:26:38	Would you call that not silence?
1:26:46	It seems the noise ceases and also...
1:26:49	K: We said - look, Tungki - when noise ceases, is that silence?
1:26:56	Because the noise can begin again. So between two noises, is that silence?
1:27:06	Between two wars, is that peace?
1:27:09	Q: Silence has actually nothing to do with this...
1:27:15	K: Therefore find out, learn! Learn about silence. So we say silence is not between two noises. Listen carefully.
1:27:27	Q: Two noises outside or two noises inside?
1:27:34	K: Both outside, inside. Between two thoughts… the interval between two thoughts is not silence.
1:27:46	Silence is not between two notes.
1:27:53	That makes music but it is not silence. You understand? The interval between two notes is the beauty of music. Do you understand this? I’ve just thought of it, please. (Laughs) And mind, when it is chattering and says, ‘I must stop chattering in order to understand what it means to be silent,’ it’s not silent.
1:28:27	And silence means when the observer, which is the past, which is the collected associations, memories, remembrances, hurts, all that is not, then only there is silence – of which the observer is never aware.
1:28:47	I can’t say, ‘Well, I have enjoyed my silence,’ like eating a banana and saying, ‘I had a lovely banana.’ So silence means a quality of mind that has put everything in its place, a quality of mind that has put where everything belongs, so that it is free from things which bring disorder.
1:29:30	Got it? That’s enough for this morning, I think, don’t you?
1:29:41	May I get up?