Krishnamurti - The superficial mind

Krishnamurti Subtitles

BR75DSS1.12 - The superficial mind
Brockwood Park, UK - 15 June 1975
Discussion with Staff and Students 1.12

0:00	This is J. Krishnamurti’s twelfth discussion with teachers and students at Brockwood Park, 1975.
0:11	Krishnamurti: What shall we talk about this morning? Questioner: Sir, would it be useful to go into the problem that seems to bother many people, which is to see what you’re talking about clearly for moments and on a verbal, intellectual level, but then it disappears or it doesn’t continue to translate itself into action that is more than momentary.
0:37	K: Are you asking, why is it that we aren’t serious?
0:44	Why is it that we are rather superficial and verbally inclined?
0:52	Is that it?
0:54	Q: What is the depth of seeing something of which you speak and so few of the rest of us seem to be able to reach?
1:02	K: I understand. So shall we first talk about—if that’s what you want to talk about—why we are superficial, if we are, why we translate every perception, every observation into a concept, into a formula, into an imaginative conclusion.
1:39	Shall we discuss that?
1:46	Would that interest you?
1:52	Q: In that, could you also go into the case of perhaps seeing very clearly for a short space of time but then one loses it?
2:05	K: Yes, we’ll go into all that. Is this what the students... is this what you want? You’re serious? I hope so, anyhow, at least for this half an hour at least.
2:26	You know...
2:27	Q: Sir, can I just say that at a recent school meeting the question was raised: we have problems here but we don’t really deal with them.
2:35	K: Yes.
2:36	Q: Could that be included in some way?
2:40	K: Yes, we’ll try to bring all these things in.
2:49	You know when you read a book, they are lateral, aren’t they, from left to right.
3:02	And Chinese and Japanese go from the bottom up. The Arabic is from left to right... right to left. Always lateral. Isn’t that so? Have you noticed it? And is our thinking also inclined or educated to be lateral?
3:29	You understand what I’m talking about?
3:33	Q: Do you mean linear?
3:36	K: Linear—I beg your pardon—linear, line. Sorry, that’s what I meant. Have you noticed that? Left to right—and we are conditioned to think in that... in lines.
3:54	Have you noticed it? That’s one fact. Then the other is that we like words, and words become a cage in which thought operates.
4:25	The words are created by thought. There is no thinking—which we’ll go into much, if you want to—is there a thinking without words?
4:40	And having thought in words, create a verbal cage in which we are caught, the thought is caught—and not only caught, our actions are caught.
4:53	Have you noticed this? Or am I going too fast? First, I said, there is the linear thinking.
5:05	Q: Krishnaji, doesn’t this linear thinking bring… it follows some kind of order?
5:18	K: Some kind of order, verbal order.
5:21	Q: Logic.
5:24	K: Logic, verbal order, it’s all constructed by thought, isn’t it?
5:36	You can think insanely, neurotically, but it’s still thinking.
5:44	So there is—let’s go into it slowly—there is linear thinking, because we’re used to that, then words create the thought, the images, imaginations, and in those words, act as a framework in which we operate.
6:14	Go slow. That is one point. Third point is, as we were talking yesterday—we had a dialogue, we have every Saturday afternoon a dialogue between Dr Bohm and myself—yesterday we were talking about something very, very interesting, which is, words, images we worship, a symbol we worship, not what is behind the word, behind the symbol.
7:04	That is, suppose you climb a great mountain; you have to struggle, you know, climb, climb, climb, and then you come up there right to the top and you see a most marvellous thing.
7:20	And I remain in the valley. You come down and describe to me what you have seen, the wonders of it, the beauty of it, the colour of the lake, the sky, the clouds, the extraordinary quality of air.
7:36	And I listen to you and the description is enough for me.
7:43	You understand? And I worship that description. You are following? So there is this: linear thinking, verbal structure, which thought clings to, and we live in that framework; then there is the description and being satisfied with a description, which again are words—all these are words.
8:28	Right? You paint a picture and I look at it and say, ‘How wonderful,’ and—you follow?—I worship that picture.
8:40	So there are these three things: imagination, a pictorial imagination or a verbal imagination or a symbolic imagination, which are still the operations of thought in words, in symbols, in picture.
9:02	So this is it. As long as we do this, live on the verbal level, which is generally the intellectual level, how can you go very deeply?
9:16	You understand? So that’s the problem.
9:28	Then we were discussing yesterday with Dr Bohm—can I put it into words?—it’s very difficult what we were discussing.
9:43	I’ll try to describe a little bit. Describe! And when I describe, you are satisfied with the description. Therefore you are satisfied with the word.
9:59	And you think, ‘By Jove, I’ve understood.’ It’s like reading a menu in a restaurant and that’s enough, and you think you have eaten.
10:16	That is what we do all our life.
10:23	So we remain superficial. Then there is the problem from this superficiality: desire. You understand? That is, I long for, I wish I were, I long or hope to achieve—all verbal constructions.
10:59	So one lives in a world of words, symbols, imagination, and we are satisfied by that.
11:17	If you observe—you have been to churches, any of you? Have you? What, you Christians, you haven’t been to churches, what’s the idea?
11:34	There, there are the images, crosses and so on.
11:42	Again those are symbols, symbols which represent your hopes.
11:56	And the hope of... the hope deriving from desire to be something like that or go beyond it.
12:06	It is still verbal.
12:13	I desire that car, I long for that car, I hope to have that car.
12:23	The car is a fact—it’s there—but the pleasure I am going to have in getting it and driving it is imagination: I haven’t got it.
12:40	You are following all this? So desire—which we were discussing yesterday, much more complex; we won’t go into it—desire implies intrinsically in it there is pleasure.
13:06	Pleasure is what I am going to have when I get the car, which is imagination.
13:15	A verbal imagination of what I am going to get, and I take pleasure in that picture: me driving a car.
13:27	You follow? So we live like this. Our religions, through their symbols, assertions, beliefs, dogmas, are all statements of a supposed reality, a verbal structure, a cross, a symbol or a painting.
14:00	Those are all linear thinking, verbal structures, imaginations in which the mind lives, is caught.
14:13	Right? Do you see this? Contradict me—you understand?
14:19	Q: I don’t see, if I may say it, that it is always verbal precisely.
14:24	K: I’m coming to that, sir.
14:25	Q: For instance, the pleasure of driving a car is not verbal, nor is the imagination of that pleasure verbal.
14:34	K: No, I said, sir, please, I haven’t got the car, I see the car, and from that arises the desire to own a car.
14:43	The desire: I shall be driving when I get it.
14:48	Q: I would say it’s a mental picture rather than verbal.
14:53	K: It’s the picture. Imagination, it’s a picture. I said that.
14:59	Q: Yes, but a word is only one kind of imagination.
15:01	K: I said, sir, there is the word, there is the symbol, there is the picture, there is imagination, and so on. Now, how can a mind—your mind—living always on that linear level, penetrate deeply?
15:19	You understand the question? Have you understood my question? I live—suppose I live—always at the verbal level.
15:32	You understand what I mean by verbal level now—at the imaginative level, in the hopeful level, in the pictorial level, in the verbal level.
15:51	How can I go deeply if I’m always living on that level?
15:59	You’ve understood my question? Now you answer it. You answer me. This is a dialogue between you the students and me. I’m asking you, if I’m always living in the structure, in the verbal structure, superficial, how am I to go very deeply into it?
16:33	Deeply. Or understand very deeply. You understand my question? Grace? Do you? What, sir? What?
16:44	Q: Yes.
16:45	K: I don’t know. If you keep silent, I don’t know whether you do or don’t. Now my problem then arises: how am I who have been conditioned by culture, society, church to live on that superficial level, how am I to go very deeply?
17:10	Tell me.
17:14	Q: The word or the picture may be a vehicle of what is going on deeply.
17:27	K: May be that, sir. What may be... the doctor says the verbal, imaginative level may be an intimation of something very deep.
17:43	You’ve understood? I have an imagination, see something imaginatively, and that may tell me there’s something very, very, very deep in me.
17:57	That’s what the doctor says. Is that so? You see, first of all, don’t accept a thing.
18:08	Don’t say, ‘Yes, I see.’ Find out if what the speaker is saying is true or false.
18:18	Don’t accept it. Investigate it—neither accepting nor rejecting, but investigating.
18:32	Now, how am I who have lived at that superficial level—which we know what we mean by superficial level—to penetrate deeply?
18:45	I read books, both complicated, superficial, thrillers, detective, academic books and so on—all words.
19:03	Q: Certainly if you had a verbal picture, an imagination, that excluded a deeper level, if you said there is no deeper level, then that would seem obviously to block you from ever seeing if there was or not.
19:18	K: So if I say, ‘That’s the only level I live at,’ that’s the only true level.
19:28	Why should... What do you mean? Then why talk about deeper level? There may be no deeper level at all. You have understood my question? Go into it. What happens to a human being who lives only at that level all his life?
19:52	Q: Won’t he form a pattern? Won’t his life be...
19:54	Q: He shall that way Q: …it’ll be patterned out.
20:07	K: That is, I move from one pattern to another. Is that what you’re saying? Let me... let’s go on, otherwise we’ll be stuck.
20:28	Now, are you who are listening to the description, to the words—you’ve understood the meaning of words now; after explaining the meaning you have understood the meaning, you have understood the words.
20:45	The word, you have heard the word, and you understand the meaning of that word, the significance and so on. Now, are you aware that you are living at the verbal, superficial level?
21:01	Are you aware? Do you know? Or I am telling you therefore you say, ‘Yes, I am aware’?
21:17	You see the problem? Oh, come on, some of you.
21:27	Because I describe to you that you are living at the superficial level, verbal level called intellectual level, and say, ‘Are you aware of it?’—so are you aware of the fact or the description of the fact?
21:49	Q: I am going from the description to the fact.
21:59	K: Are you going from the description to the fact? Come on, what do you say?
22:12	You don’t know? What do you mean, you don’t know?
22:19	Q: Well, I think you need time to think over it.
22:23	K: Think now—not tomorrow—you are here. (Laughs) Q: Krishnaji, it seems...
22:29	K: Wait a bit, just hold a minute. I don’t move from this because he hasn’t got it. He says, ‘I’ll have to think about it, I have to go into it.’ Q: I see it.
22:45	K: You see it: that you are aware from the description the fact.
22:57	Q: Aware of the fact.
22:59	K: Aware of the fact—therefore you’ve put aside the description.
23:02	Q: No.
23:03	K: Wait, go slowly, stick to it (laughs). The fact—you understand?—and the description is something else.
23:15	The word ‘door’ is different from the actual fact of a door.
23:22	Right?
23:23	Q: You can have both.
23:25	K: Of course. I say ‘the door’—there’s the verbal statement and the description of a particular door—but the description, the word, is not the actual fact of the door.
23:42	Right? When you see it, it is not a description.
23:51	Now, I have described the verbal process, that we live superficially.
24:03	I have described it. I say, are you aware of the description and so the description makes the fact a reality, or are you aware without the description the fact?
24:22	Do you see the difference?
24:30	Now, wait a minute, let’s go slowly. Hunger—you know what hunger is, don’t you? I describe to you that you are... I tell you that you are hungry. See the difference? I tell you you are hungry, and so you might say, ‘Well, I am really hungry,’ from that, because I’ve described what hunger is.
24:54	Or you are actually hungry. You’ve got it? Bene? Shall we go on?
25:03	Q: I would like to ask a question. Can you see the fact through the description? K. Now, are you aware—listen, Tungki—are you aware of the description which may lead you to the fact, or are you aware of the fact?
25:25	I may describe, but you say, ‘Yes, I know I live at that level.’ (Pause) Sleepy?
25:48	Q: The fact may be there before you describe it.
25:49	K: Maybe. That’s not the point, sir. That’s not the point. The fact may be there, but are you aware of the fact? Which is, are you aware that you are living at that superficial level? That’s the fact. Are you aware of that fact?
26:05	Q: I have a difficulty here. May I try to...
26:07	K: Surely, sir.
26:08	Q: ...express it? You point to the microphone and ask me to look at it. Previously I was looking out of the window; I didn’t see it.
26:23	You say, ‘There is the microphone, look and you’ll see it,’ and I see it.
26:34	But I don’t see it as a microphone unless I have knowledge of what microphones are, the concept of a microphone. So that even in seeing the microphone there is some kind of background which...
26:44	K: Yes, sir, I understand.
26:46	Q: The fact—what is the fact? Is it just…
26:48	K: Wait, wait, wait. No, wait, I’m going to... You and I have agreed to call the microphone ‘the microphone’.
26:57	You and I have...
26:58	Q: So we have agreed on a certain...
26:59	K: On the word—the meaning of the word describes this. You and I have agreed. If we say that is a—what?—a serpent, we can say, ‘That’s a serpent,’ if we all agree that’s a serpent.
27:17	Q: It wasn’t the actual word, it’s…
27:20	K: The actual word is ‘microphone,’ isn’t it?
27:23	Q: Yes.
27:24	K: The name of this instrument, we have all agreed to call it a microphone.
27:35	If we all agreed that it’s a snake, it’s all right, we’ll call it a snake.
27:40	Q: It isn’t quite what I meant.
27:44	K: I think I’ve understood, sir. Now, you are asking, what is a fact?
27:50	Q: Yes. What makes that combination of black and white and shape a microphone? What I first see is its form.
27:57	K: I can’t tell you what is inside the microphone.
28:01	Q: Not inside, but how do I know that that conglomeration of shapes is a microphone? It’s because of my knowledge.
28:08	K: No, but we have called this beastly thing ‘microphone’.
28:10	Q: Yes, but I recognise it.
28:13	K: That’s all—through the word.
28:16	Q: Yes.
28:19	K: Now let’s go back. We come to what you’re saying. Am I aware of the fact that I’m living superficially, verbally?
28:41	Now, we went into the question of what is being aware, didn’t we?
28:50	Need I go over it? Yes? (Laughs) All right. Are you aware of the fact of this hall—the colour, the shape of the roof, the windows, the proportions of the hall—are you aware of it?
29:19	That means, do you see it?
29:24	Q: We are aware now that you are pointing it to us, but do we have to be aware all the time?
29:35	K: No, I’m asking... No, of course, for the... because you’re not here all the time.
29:37	Q: No, but when we are here and you are talking to us we must more or less pay attention to what you are saying.
29:47	K: Obviously, obviously.
29:48	Q: And therefore do we exclude the rest when we are paying attention?
29:51	K: Now wait a minute. Now, when you pay attention to what is being said, did you not pay attention to all that when you came in?
30:03	Q: Yes.
30:04	K: When you came into the room you looked at all this.
30:12	And having carefully looked, it’s finished. Now you won’t look and say, ‘Well, I’m looking at that roof,’ but you’re paying attention to what is being said, because that is outside the field of attention at the moment.
30:29	Q: And so all this was… after we came in, said that we take it for granted afterwards.
30:36	K: That’s right. Now I want to go on. Are you aware that you are living at a verbal level?
30:46	The verbal level may be ten inches deep or very high, but it’s still a verbal movement.
31:00	Now if you are aware that one is living at the superficial level, then what is implied?
31:17	What happens to a mind that lives at a superficial level?
31:21	Q: It becomes very complex, very sophisticated.
31:28	K: Does it become complex?
31:34	Q: Sir, if you see that you are living at a superficial level with a superficial level, you remain perhaps at the superficial.
31:46	K: No, it’s much more complex. Please, don’t reduce…—go into it, you will see it. The results of a superficial mind: what it does, its activities, whether in the world of art, in the world of science, in the world of human relationship, in the world of beauty, in the world of creation, and so on, so on, so on—what happens to a superficial mind when it is living there?
32:22	Q: It’s very restricted.
32:25	K: All right. It’s limited. Go on. Investigate, don’t stop there. Go on.
32:33	Q: It becomes mechanical, as Philip said.
32:35	K: All right, it becomes mechanical. Now you have discovered two things. What did you say, sir?
32:44	Q: Restricted.
32:45	K: Restricted, limited, mechanical. Go on, investigate, don’t just throw out words.
32:52	Q: Neurotic.
32:55	Q: What’s neurotic?
33:00	K: He says neurotic—why? Am I neurotic when I believe some dogma of the church?
33:16	You understand what I’m saying? Am I neurotic when the Catholics believe—as a Catholic; suppose I’m a Catholic—I believe the Virgin Mary ascended heaven physically?
33:33	Millions accept it. That is one of the dogmas of the Church. You may say that is absurd, but I believe it—suppose I believe it.
33:45	I’ve been conditioned to believe it, I’ve been brought up to believe it. Would you call me neurotic? Go on.
33:54	Q: If it stops there.
34:00	K: It has stopped there, old boy (laughs).
34:03	Q: Well, all right.
34:04	K: Am I neurotic?
34:06	Q: No.
34:07	K: Why not? Why not?
34:10	Q: Because I too have been brought up with my beliefs and all that, all that I believe in.
34:21	Q: Neurotic is when you are in a contradiction, isn’t it?
34:28	K: No—a distorted thinking, a distorted rationalisation, based on fear, based on hope, based on pleasure.
34:44	Catch me out, please, somebody.
34:47	Q: Obviously this is neurotic.
34:51	K: But millions believe. I’m one of the poor chaps.
34:54	Q: Is it a fact that basing one’s life on hope, on pleasure and fear is the actual mechanism that makes the mind neurotic?
35:09	Because it’s such a narrow box that one...
35:16	K: So I have discovered something: limited—right?—mechanical, operating in patterns. If the old pattern is not sufficient or not pleasurable, not effective, I move superficially, create a new pattern, operate in that.
35:32	If that is not efficient, I move to another or I go back to the old one. So I’ve found this, which is mechanical operation—right?—a mechanical movement; limited, mechanical.
35:50	And we said a mind that lives superficially is satisfied with superficial things.
36:02	Right? Like a symbol—it’s satisfied. It is satisfied that the Virgin Mary went up to heaven physically.
36:15	So I’ve discovered something: that a mind living superficially is satisfied with symbols however neurotic they are.
36:25	Q: But the satisfaction is very tenuous.
36:26	K: Wait. Tenuous?
36:28	Q: Yes, it’s always subject to... If one’s satisfaction is based on these false beliefs...
36:30	K: Will you tell that to the Pope?
36:36	Q: Well, I’m saying...
36:38	K: Wait, wait.
36:40	Q: Yes… (inaudible) K: You tell him. You may tell him, but he says, ‘Poor chap, that woman doesn’t know what she’s talking about.’ Wait, look at it.
37:00	So you see a rational belief, however rational, however so-called accepted, traditional, millions believe, may be... probably is neurotic.
37:19	So all belief is neurotic. So I’ve discovered four things... three things.
37:35	And a superficial mind has extraordinary desires.
37:42	Desires, which is pleasure. I long for something which will give me pleasure.
37:57	I long for a position which will give me pleasure.
38:07	I long to be like you—you have money, position, beauty, intelligence and popularity, a status and all the rest of it.
38:20	I want that; that gives me pleasure. So I’ve discovered five things. Right. That a human mind living superficially is satisfied with superficial things, from which it derives great pleasure: nightclubs—you know, what is modern civilisation, which is mechanical, limited, neurotic.
38:53	Right? Nobody’s contradicting?
38:55	Q: Can we look at this business of looking? Because it seems that in the process of looking for something else—true the mechanical mind thinks if they’re as rich as their neighbour they will then be happy—but the fact is usually when they get to that position again they’re looking again.
39:22	K: That’s means… That’s it. Move—I said that—move from one object of pleasure to another.
39:26	Q: Yes, but is there something in the human beings, in a sense, there must some spark that there is something else?
39:36	K: No, no, that is a supposition. You are saying there must be something else. How do you know?
39:48	Q: It happens sometimes in arts, I mean in literature and music, that as you pursue a work, a Shakespeare play or a symphony, the more you go into it the more it seems to reveal.
40:03	K: What? What is revealed? What is revealed? Please answer me. What is revealed?
40:09	Q: Well, I don’t know what it is but it seems to be deeper.
40:16	K: No, no, I would like to know. You tell me what is revealed. I read Keats’s poem Ode to a Nightingale—what is revealed? The beauty, the extraordinary words he uses, the symbols, you know, the description.
40:30	Q: It is more than the words.
40:33	K: No, wait, sir, you are... I am drawing...
40:39	Q: If it was only the words, it wouldn’t be worth reading.
40:43	K: They are words, put together most beautifully.
40:47	Q: (Inaudible) K: They are words from which from the description I derive great delight, an enjoyment.
40:58	When he says—you know, a marvellous poem—when he says something it delights me.
41:06	I derive pleasure from the beauty of those words, from those descriptions, the way he has put it.
41:16	It’s a great delight, the beauty of it. So you say, ‘What is beauty?‘ So I say—wait, sir, look at it, look at it—I can add lots more.
41:31	We said limited, a superficial mind, that is, a mind that lives on conclusions, words, on descriptions, words, on symbols manufactured by thought in certain shape and so on, or imagination.
41:55	And we say all beliefs which are the product of thought based on fear are neurotic.
42:05	And also we say when a superficial mind lives at that level, it must always have a movement of pleasure from one thing to the other.
42:23	One day the pub, next day God, next day something else—move, move, along the same pattern—sex, non-sex, whatever it is, new ideals, communism, socialism—you follow?—the whole thing.
42:40	I’m not saying the results of action yet—those are... That is the fact. Right, sir?
42:56	Do you see it? Now, do you see this is what is happening to you?
43:07	(Pause) I say something to you—listen to this carefully—I say something to you and it hurts you.
43:23	You understand? I say to you, ‘You’re a fool,’ or you tell me I’m a fool—much better. You tell me I’m a fool. The word has certain meaning, a word is an ugly word.
43:45	I associate that word with ugliness and I think I am very clever and you call me a fool.
43:55	I have an image of myself, a verbal image, a symbol of myself, and you call me a fool and that image gets hurt.
44:08	Right? So as long as I live superficially there must be... my thinking must be limited.
44:19	However extensive it is, it’s still limited. It must be mechanical. It must inevitably become neurotic, whether a million accept it or don’t accept it.
44:40	Belief becomes neurotic, and a mind that is always wanting something, craving, clinging, hoping.
44:53	Right? Are you aware that you are doing this? Do you know that you’re doing this, that’s the way you live?
45:14	Yes, sir?
45:15	Q: Perhaps.
45:16	K: Do you say, ‘Perhaps that’s the door,’ and walk through that wall?
45:22	Q: No, I wouldn’t say it’s the door.
45:31	K: You can’t say ‘perhaps’ to the door or to the wall.
45:36	Q: The door is the fact.
45:38	K: Is this a fact to you?
45:39	Q: I door I see.
45:40	K: Is this a fact to you? Or would you like to gloss over it? Or would you like to say, ‘No, it’s not quite like that, it’s something more’?
45:52	‘No, no, it’s not like that—it is really love, it’s really beautiful.’ Would you like to say that?
46:05	‘It is divine.’ Would you? Now, if you say it is divine…—right?
46:12	Q: To the door?
46:13	K: No. Oh la la!
46:18	Q: I don’t understand.
46:21	K: If you say there is something more—not the door—something more than this superficial way we are living, then it is love, then it is beauty, then it is something divine.
46:48	So you have to go into then: what do you mean by that word ‘love’?
46:54	Q: I don’t think it’s love.
47:02	K: I want to know. When you say, ‘Darling, I love you,’ what do you mean by that?
47:10	Q: I lost the key between that and superficial.
47:19	K: No, you haven’t understood. I said… somebody said over there, there is something much more than this superficiality. I say, what is it? It can be either love, beauty, divinity, or something which can’t be put into words.
47:43	I say, leave something which cannot be put into words. Then let’s find out if there is something more. Is it love? Is it beauty? Is it something which you call divine, which man has said there is divinity and described that divinity in various forms, in various symbols, in all the cultures?
48:17	So you have to investigate this. Right? Are you all here or am I talking to myself?
48:30	Right? Is love superficial?
48:37	Q: It can be. Well, it could be superficial and be love.
48:44	K: You love—not ‘it can be’. You love a girl or a boy, or you love your father, mother or love something or other.
48:57	Q: When we speak about it, it becomes superficial.
49:00	K: Oh, you don’t think...
49:01	Q: Because we recognise it.
49:03	K: So what you don’t think about is not superficial?
49:12	I don’t think about you therefore my relationship with you is very deep.
49:27	Tungki, see how tricky the words are, how we are easily caught by words.
49:47	Right? So, are you aware that you are living at this level of superficiality?
50:01	Now if you are really aware, in the sense as factual as this and as actual as that wall—you understand?—what happens?
50:20	Come on, sir. Tell me.
50:22	Q: You’re not used by this fact you are living at the superficial level. You’re not used by this superficiality, but you rather know it.
50:36	So you’re not caught by the superficiality.
50:40	K: So you are different from the superficiality?
50:44	Q: I don’t know.
50:48	K: Investigate it. Are you different from the word, from the limited, from the mechanical mind, from the neurotic beliefs, from the desire that says, ‘I hope to be something, I long for something’?
51:13	Are you different from all that?
51:15	Q: No, not really.
51:19	K: So you are that.
51:23	Q: But you do have it.
51:29	K: What?
51:30	Q: You wouldn’t be without having it. I mean, you wouldn’t live without having it. All of us have it and we can’t discard it just like that.
51:40	K: I never... I said… Don’t discard it. I’m asking…
51:44	Q: So we have it still.
51:45	K: So you are limited, you are mechanical, you are neurotic in that sense we have used, you are longing for something, groping after something, clinging to something—right?—or pleasure, fear.
52:03	You’re all that. You are that. Right? What do you mean ‘mmm’?
52:13	Q: Yes.
52:14	K: Don’t scratch your chin—I mean, see the actuality of it.
52:19	Q: Yes.
52:20	K: All right. If you say, ‘I am all that,’ then what?
52:25	Q: You are all that.
52:29	K: Yes, I understand.
52:30	Q: That’s all we said.
52:32	K: Yes, sir.
52:33	Q: Look, if you are all that...
52:34	K: …then what happens?
52:35	Q: ...how can you see something?
52:36	K: Then what happens?
52:37	Q: I don’t know.
52:42	Q: I don’t think we really see it, that we are all that.
52:52	We see it in a partial thing, but we don’t see it completely.
52:53	K: You see it partially. You see one moment or one day that you are limited, next day that you are neurotic, third day you see that all your activities, your behaviour, the way you look and observe and talk are mechanical, that you are longing for something, a verbal picture projected by desire as pleasure, and the fourth day you say, ‘Oh, for God’s sake, I’m fed up with all this,’ and so you keep moving—do you?
53:28	At what level? At the same level.
53:33	Q: Yes.
53:34	K: Therefore limited.
53:35	Q: Yes.
53:36	K: (Laughs) So you are always moving within the limited area of words, of hope and so on.
53:50	You are that, aren’t you? The movement is not separate from you, is it?
53:54	Q: No.
53:55	K: No. So what will you do? What do you do then?
54:02	Q: May I say, I have the impression that some of us are confused between two things: being the superficiality and having it.
54:18	Do you see what I mean? I have the impression that one has it, but you are saying we are it.
54:23	K: Absolutely.
54:25	Q: Is there a difference between having it and being it?
54:31	K: I don’t quite see: having it and being it.
54:35	Q: Having it means, you know, I’m here and the superficiality is something that belongs to me, but I’m different.
54:37	K: Ah, same thing, sir.
54:38	Q: But being it is there is nothing else but that.
54:40	K: Isn’t there? I’m asking—show me.
54:43	Q: Those are the two.
54:44	K: There are not the two—show me. You say, ‘I am not all that, I am different.’ The difference is I am not mechanical, I am not limited, I am not neurotic, I am not hoping for something, but all that is put on me, all that is outside of me.
55:08	Q: Yes, I think that’s a way one often feels.
55:16	K: What is the actuality? I may feel one day marvellously beautiful—I mean, inside (laughs)—or I am terribly clever, but what is the actual fact?
55:25	Q: Krishnaji, it seems we get to a point and then stop, because I get to a point where I can see that I do have beliefs and I can see that I do have images, and I can see all that but I don’t know what to do with it.
55:52	K: I’m going to show you. I’m going to show you what to do with it, but if you refuse to move from...
56:02	Look, you see a snake, cobra.
56:09	You know what a cobra is, don’t you? You see it there. What do you do? Do you sit there, look at it and touch it, play with it and say, ‘How rational, how beautiful, how lovely’?
56:24	Do you argue with it? That’s what you’re doing now. When you see something dangerous you move away. Right? Right? Are you clear on this? Come on, sir, this is obvious. When a bus is coming hurtling along towards you, you step out of its way. Now, do you see as clearly as the bus, as the cobra, that you are living superficially?
57:03	Q: We don’t see it as a danger as with the cobra or the bus.
57:18	We see it as a generality, not a danger.
57:20	K: Ah, no, not as a generality—as an actuality, I said.
57:23	Q: Yes, an actuality but not a danger.
57:25	K: It is. Wait a minute. Isn’t it dangerous to live in a very limited way? Come on, tell me. Because I’m very limited, what happens? I have no space. Because I’m limited and I have no space, I become violent. This has been proved. I told you that experiment they made—by one of the scientists—I was told about it; I haven’t read it—that they crowded I don’t know how many rats in one small space, thousands in a small space, very limited.
58:15	They killed each other. The mother killed the...—you know?—they killed each other, they lost all proportions, all relationship, lost their... became neurotic.
58:31	Isn’t that dangerous? That’s one of the factors of the big cities, where everybody is crowded in a little space because there is no...—you understand?—and therefore etc., etc.
58:49	So a limited mind is a dangerous mind.
58:57	A limited mind says, ‘I am a Hindu,’ ‘I am this, British,’ or ‘I am...’ whatever it is.
59:06	It’s a limited mind and therefore it becomes very dangerous.
59:09	Q: But can the limited mind see that danger as long as it’s limited?
59:17	K: I’m showing it to you. If you want to listen, listen. If you say, ‘Well, sorry, I’m quite happy with my limited mind, my lovely little mind,’ then there is nothing more to be said.
59:33	But you are a captured audience (laughs).
59:36	Q: Well, the thing is this: a part of my mind wants to find something new but the other part wants to cling to something old.
59:47	K: I understand that, because… We said that, Tungki. We said we move from pattern to pattern. If one pattern doesn’t satisfy, we invent another. If that doesn’t satisfy we go back to the old pattern. This is a repetition that we are doing all the time.
1:00:14	So you see the danger, because of wars: one nationality, a limited group of people say, ‘We are that,’ which is a very limited mind.
1:00:29	These are the people that have created wars. So a limited mind is the most dangerous mind, as dangerous as that cobra or that bus that’s coming towards you.
1:00:45	Right? Do you see the danger of it?
1:00:50	Q: Sure.
1:00:52	K: Therefore you are not limited.
1:00:55	Q: Yes.
1:00:57	K: All right. Do you see the danger of a mechanical mind?
1:01:04	Q: Yes.
1:01:07	K: Right? Danger—as dangerous as that cobra. Do you see a neurotic mind is dangerous mind? I’m a Catholic and you’re a communist.
1:01:30	I cling to my gods, my beliefs, my dogmas, my rituals, my property, all the traditions, and you cling to Marxism—listen—which are all words, images and so on.
1:01:52	So, isn’t that a dangerous thing? Because I being a Catholic have created terrible wars: inquisition, torturing people, burning people, and the Protestants have done that too—not that they burnt them but they have brought about wars too.
1:02:11	So a neurotic mind is a dangerous mind.
1:02:18	A mind that is always seeking pleasure, always wanting something new, always wanting, hoping, longing, clinging—isn’t that also a dangerous mind?
1:02:31	Q: Yes.
1:02:34	K: Now when you say yes, have you moved away from the danger?
1:02:42	Q: Sure.
1:02:43	K: You have moved away.
1:02:47	Q: Sure.
1:02:48	K: Therefore you are not limited.
1:02:51	Q: Sure.
1:02:52	K: (Laughs) You’re too quick. You wait till you’re married, wait till you have to earn money, wait till you’ve got a bank account, then you won’t so quickly say yes.
1:03:09	So you haven’t penetrated into the meaning of it, the whole significance of a limited mind, a mechanical mind, a neurotic mind.
1:03:23	Go on. So when you see danger you move away.
1:03:31	So if you see the danger of all the things that we have described and you actually see the fact and so the danger, you’re finished with it.
1:03:43	So then you’ll find out: what does it mean to have no limited mind?
1:03:52	What does it mean?
1:03:59	Does it mean freedom?
1:04:06	Then what is freedom? To do what I like? What I like is a limited mind. You see the beauty of it, sir? Come on, sir. What I want to do is a limited mind. What I want to fulfil is a limited mind. It is my identification with something; it’s a limited mind.
1:04:29	Q: Therefore you’re not free.
1:04:32	K: So is freedom doing what I want to do?
1:04:42	No? But you are doing that all day, aren’t you?
1:04:46	Q: Am I?
1:04:48	K: I’m asking you. I don’t know. I don’t watch you, so I don’t know. I watch you sometimes from the window but that’s a different thing.
1:05:00	But are you in your daily life free, that is, not doing what you want to do—your pleasure, your opinions, your conclusions?
1:05:26	So a free mind means no conclusion. Right? Are you living that way? I say, ‘You are a fool.’ No conclusion. Is it a fact or not a fact? If it is not a fact, drop it. If it is a fact, look at it. Don’t get hurt. Don’t get a lot of emotions about it.
1:05:54	Right? Phew! So freedom means not doing what one wants nor—may I go into it a little bit, complicated; Nelson, all right?—nor living always in the world of reality.
1:06:27	We said the other day reality—please listen carefully—reality is something that we think about, or thought has created, or thought has reflected upon, which are words, symbols, limitation, neuroticism, pursuing always pleasure.
1:07:00	A mind that is living in that reality which thought has created, such a mind is never free.
1:07:14	So a free mind is a mind that perceives truth.
1:07:24	I won’t go into it, it’s too complicated. Truth means something which is actual, not imaginative, not conceptual, not verbal.
1:07:40	I won’t go into all that, that’s too difficult for you.
1:07:47	So then if you are not limited, if you’re not mechanical, if you’re not neurotic, if you’re not pursuing the projections of desire as pleasure, then you are... aren’t you living then at a totally different dimension?
1:08:12	Aren’t you? Are you? Or you’re merely agreeing verbally?
1:08:26	It’s too difficult. So we said a superficial mind can never have any depth.
1:08:48	It may invent a depth, but it is an invention of thought, not actuality.
1:09:01	Do you understand the difference between the projections, the inventions, the structure thought has made, and actuality?
1:09:13	The tree is actual, but the description of the tree is not actual, a verbal, but it has its own reality.
1:09:28	Do you see that or it’s too... Right, sir? Mr Joe? Agree?
1:09:39	Q: I agree.
1:09:43	K: Right. So this movement, which is verbal, limited, mechanical, neurotic, always pursuing its desires as pleasure and so on and so on, such a mind is a most dangerous mind because it has created wars, it has created a great deal of suffering to human beings and to itself.
1:10:20	So when you see that as an actuality, not as an imaginative idea or accept a description, when you actually see the fact of it, the actuality of it, as the tree, as the cobra, as the bus, then there is a totally different action.
1:10:50	Right? Then depth. We said superficial and deep. Is the word ‘deep’ deep? You understand? Have you understood what I’ve said? When you say, ‘Oh, he is a very deep man’—not as a derogatory word or as a cynical word—‘He’s a very deep person,’ is the depth measurable by the word?
1:11:38	What do you say?
1:11:43	Q: Surely you can’t use that word because it’s not in that dimension.
1:11:49	K: I am using it, Tungki—what do you mean, I can’t use it? That’s what we’re all doing. We say, ‘I want to be deep. There is something I can find if my mind is very deep.’ Don’t you say that?
1:12:10	Q: We put it as the opposite of the superficial.
1:12:18	K: No, I said... Look, when the superficial mind says, ‘I must go deeply’—which is what was suggested—when the superficial mind says, ‘I must go deeply,’ is the depth invented by a superficial mind, and therefore that depth is not depth at all but just a description, or is there really depth?
1:12:57	I wonder if you understand what I mean. Am I making myself clear? I have lived all my life at that level, superficial level, and I don’t know what depth or deep or something other than this.
1:13:18	And you come along and say, ‘Look, as long as you live there you are the most mischievous person.’ You show me the reasons, you show me the logic, the rationality of it, the reality of it, and I say, ‘Yes.’ And I say then, ‘I must go very deeply, push all this out, go deeply.’ Is that depth a reality of thought or an actuality?
1:13:54	You get what I’m talking about? Vous avez compris? Bien? All right, let me put it. I say I love you. What does it mean? I like your companionship, I like to talk to you, perhaps I have sex with you, perhaps I am lonely and therefore I cling to you—are you following all this?—I like your face, I like what you do, I feel... and so I say, ‘I love you.’ You understand?
1:14:44	Q: Yes.
1:14:45	K: Is that love?
1:14:47	Q: No.
1:14:48	K: Wait, wait, wait. (Laughs) This is what we say is love.
1:14:54	Q: But is it love?
1:14:56	K: I’m asking you.
1:14:57	Q: Well, I’m asking you then.
1:14:59	K: I say… I know what I’ll tell you (laughs). So out of my emptiness, loneliness... Take that: I’m lonely. You know what it means to be lonely, of course. So I cling to you and I say, ‘Darling’—I cling to you. And then because I cling to you there is a certain pleasure, I possess you, and I call that love.
1:15:26	And you come along and say to me, ‘Is that really love?’ And if I listen to you I discover it is not quite what I thought.
1:15:40	Right? So, in trying to cover up or fill my loneliness by my relationship with you—you understand?—is that love?
1:15:55	Q: No.
1:15:57	K: No. Are you doing it?
1:15:59	Q: No.
1:16:00	K: Good. That’s the end of that, if you are actually not doing it.
1:16:08	Right? Then—phew!—then I say, ‘I love you,’ because I derive physical, biological pleasure from you.
1:16:25	Therefore I must possess you, therefore I am attached to you. Is that love?
1:16:32	Q: No.
1:16:34	K: Do you do that—attached, possess, dominate, control?
1:16:41	Q: No.
1:16:43	K: Have you told your girlfriend that you are totally detached from her?
1:16:52	Q: Yes.
1:16:53	K: (Laughs) What does she say?
1:16:57	Q: Ask her.
1:16:59	K: I ask her? I ask her? (Laughs) She’ll tell me to go and climb a tree.
1:17:12	(Laughter) And you say, ‘That’s really not love at all, my girl,’ and she wants to cling to you (laughs) because she’s lonely, she wants your companionship and perhaps various other forms of pleasure, and so she clings to you.
1:17:38	And you tell her, ‘No, darling, that’s not love.’ Is that it? (Laughs) So you are really playing a game, aren’t you, a verbal game.
1:17:59	But if you turn it into a reality, an actuality, what takes place, if you say that is not love?
1:18:09	No, because it’s... you see the reality of it, that the... as dangerous as the cobra when somebody clings to you and you derive pleasure from it.
1:18:24	Therefore that person who clings to you, when you turn away, becomes jealous, angry, hatred, venomous: divorce.
1:18:38	So is that love?
1:18:45	If it is not then are you caught up in that? If you are not then there is something totally different—you may call it love.
1:19:01	Are you prepared? Do you want to test it, not just say, ‘Yes, I am like that’?
1:19:12	Test it out.
1:19:25	So, can a superficial mind know what love is?
1:19:36	Avanti, signor, avanti.
1:19:44	Can a superficial mind know what beauty is?
1:19:47	Q: No.
1:19:48	K: Why do you say no?
1:19:50	Q: I don’t think it can.
1:19:52	K: Would it then... Before you say no, you must find out what is beauty. What is beauty? All the things that are in the museums, all the buildings, the tree, the clouds, the running waters, a beautiful face, a beautiful gesture, a beautiful building?
1:20:32	Then what is beauty? And are the things that are contained in the museums the world over—pictures, statues, you know, all what they contain, books—that’s also beautiful.
1:20:50	Some of them are extraordinarily beautiful, aren’t they?
1:20:58	So what is beauty? If it is only there in a building, then it is merely a cultural conditioning, isn’t it?
1:21:20	I am conditioned to accept certain forms, certain structures, certain proportions, certain light and shade and all the rest of it.
1:21:35	I am conditioned to say that is beautiful, and I say, ‘Yes, that’s beautiful.’ And is that beautiful?
1:21:44	No. So a conditioned mind—listen to it—a conditioned mind, though it may appreciate the beauty of an expression in the proportions and so on, is not a really a beautiful mind.
1:22:02	It doesn’t know what beauty is.
1:22:04	Q: (Inaudible) K: So—wait a minute—it’s more complex than that.
1:22:11	Go into it.
1:22:12	Q: Can I say anything beautiful?
1:22:18	K: Can you say anything beautiful if you are not beautiful?
1:22:21	Q: No, if...
1:22:23	K: Tungki, can you say anything is beautiful if inside you in your own life, in your own way, in yourself there isn’t that quality, that extraordinary sense of dignity, beauty, respect?
1:22:40	All that is implied in beauty. If I haven’t got it and I say, ‘‘That’s beautiful,’ because a million people say so and I accept that, the opinions of it, is that beauty?
1:22:59	Though it may be beautiful. Have you seen some of the Greek statues? Have you? Have you seen some of the Egyptian ones and some of the Indian ones and the modern painters, modern statues?
1:23:24	Now, when you look at them what impresses you?
1:23:39	Go on, sir, what impresses you?
1:23:40	Q: (Inaudible) K: You see Apollo, you see, you know, a Greek statue—what appeals to you when you see that?
1:23:51	Q: Expression of an emotion being created by the expression of the statue.
1:23:59	K: You see that and you say that awakens in you an emotion.
1:24:05	Q: Yes.
1:24:06	K: And that emotion—what?—pleasurable, hateful, disagreeable?
1:24:10	Q: No, it’s just an expression.
1:24:15	K: I’m asking you.
1:24:18	Q: Say an expression, forceful in one of the statues.
1:24:26	K: I’m asking you, Tungki—stick to one thing—I’m asking you, when you look at a Greek statue, as you must have seen one, what strikes you?
1:24:45	What happens to you? Or when you hear some marvellous music, what happens to you?
1:24:55	Q: You are at ease.
1:25:00	Q: Your mind stops chattering.
1:25:08	Your mind stops chattering and you become that music.
1:25:17	K: Wait. So—wait—what happens? You say the mind stops chattering. What does that indicate?
1:25:21	Q: That you and the music are one.
1:25:26	K: No, what does that indicate? Go deep. Of course, you say that we are one—I’m not sure, but go on.
1:25:34	Q: That there’s a unity between the experienced and the experiencer.
1:25:41	K: Yes. So…
1:25:43	Q: And that is what’s happening then, it’s all…
1:25:48	K: Wait a minute, wait a minute.
1:25:55	When you... have you see a boy or a girl absorbed in a toy?
1:26:03	He’s completely absorbed and he doesn’t rush about, he doesn’t tear things.
1:26:12	That... what has happened there?
1:26:15	Q: The same... (inaudible) K: Do go slowly.
1:26:25	What has happened there? Before, the boy was naughty, tearing around, chasing—you follow?—and you give him a toy and he is completely absorbed in that toy.
1:26:39	What happens?
1:26:40	Q: He’s giving his complete attention to it.
1:26:45	K: The toy has absorbed him. No?
1:26:49	Q: Yes.
1:26:50	Q: He’s forgotten himself.
1:26:52	K: Wait, just take... look at it before you jump on me. Take away that toy and he’s all over the place.
1:27:06	Right? The toy, the music, the marvellous dignity of a mountain, the splendour of it knocks you out and you become silent.
1:27:24	So the greatness of something shatters you and you become quiet. But you are not quiet. It makes you quiet, which is, you might just as well take a drug, a pill, a tranquilliser.
1:27:40	I don’t know if you see the... So, being absorbed by something or absorbed in something, and therefore makes the mind not chatter, is not the end of chattering.
1:28:07	So is beauty out there in the museum, in the picture, in the statue or—it is there also—and if it isn’t in you, is anything beautiful or is it merely a cultural, emotional response, a sentimental response?
1:28:39	I wonder if you... It’s time. Would you like to stop or shall we finish this?
1:28:50	Q: Finish it.
1:28:54	K: I am absorbed by Mozart or Beethoven or whatever it is.
1:29:04	I’m absorbed by it. Therefore I lie quietly, listen to it completely. It’s my toy. And remove that, take it away from me, I’m back again.
1:29:28	That has absorbed me or I am absorbed in something—in science, in writing a book, in talking, in this, in that—when that is broken I’m back again.
1:29:43	Q: Excuse me, but certain music sometimes induces you into a certain quietness and you take away the music and you are remaining there for a certain period of time.
1:29:53	K: Oh, come off it. For two or three minutes, Tungki. Come on, we know that. I am showing you when there is... when something absorbs you or you are absorbed in something there is a period of time or space or seconds that your mind is quiet.
1:30:14	But it is all an enforcing, conditioning action.
1:30:24	Leave all that for the moment. I say to you, what is beauty? I’m asking you, because beauty, love and goodness go together.
1:30:43	If you have no beauty there is no love, there is no goodness.
1:30:49	Q: Well, when you’re looking at a beautiful sunset, at that time you have no thought of beauty.
1:30:57	K: Quite right, then later on comes the thought of beauty.
1:31:00	Q: Yes.
1:31:01	K: So thought creates what it considers...
1:31:04	Q: ...to be beauty.
1:31:05	K: Therefore what thought has created is in the world of—you follow? See the connection, sir.
1:31:10	Q: Well, I see that connection, but when you try and say love and beauty, you often use the word ‘love’ as though love is not in the same category as beauty.
1:31:22	K: I know. I said to you just now: love, beauty and goodness are together.
1:31:30	They can’t be separated. Because if I have no goodness—not the cultivated goodness—you follow?—if there is no flowering in goodness, is there beauty?
1:31:51	I can admire pictures, I can explain to you most cunningly, most marvellously the nature of sixteenth or the fifteenth century art, as Kenneth Clark does or some of these people who are talking on the television of civilisation and culture and, you know, all the rest of it.
1:32:14	Is there... if goodness is not there in your life, in your way of living, can there be beauty?
1:32:27	Beauty means a perception of the whole—not out there or in here—a perception of the whole.
1:32:43	The whole being healthy, sane, rational and holy.
1:32:56	If all that doesn’t exist, what is beauty? Then it’s just words and just pictures. I might write a most marvellous poem, lovely poem, but if there is no goodness in me, that poem...
1:33:14	I may be a technician. So if there is no love there is no beauty.
1:33:29	I may call my girlfriend or my boyfriend… ‘I love you,’ but that is just a superficial attraction, superficial pleasure and it’s going to end in disaster.
1:33:44	Right? Live that way, sir.
1:33:56	(Pause) Is that enough?
1:34:06	Q: I think that we have talked but we still haven’t got really the... I don’t think we’ve really got… You seem to have tried to point out something but...
1:34:16	K: Ah, I’ve not pointed out anything. I am saying to you, look.
1:34:30	Look at your... if you have a limited mind, look at that limited mind. If your mind is mechanical, look at it. If you are caught in belief, which is neurotic, look at it.
1:34:50	And if you’re caught in the pursuit of endless pleasure, which becomes mechanical, which becomes… all the rest of it, just look at it, give your attention to it as you do when you see something terribly dangerous.
1:35:12	Q: How do you do it, because I always tend to… I mean, there is always a reaction in that.
1:35:20	K: Look at it. When the bus is rushing towards you, the reaction is natural, isn’t it?
1:35:30	Because you must... the body must protect itself, therefore you jump out of the way.
1:35:38	If all the things which we have described, limited and neurotic and mechanical and all the rest, if that is dangerous to you and to human beings as a whole, you walk out of it, you don’t kind of debate about it, argue.
1:36:07	Is that enough? Basta. Right.