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BR75DSS1.14 - The whole content of my consciousness is me
Brockwood Park, UK - 22 June 1975
Discussion with Staff and Students 1.14



0:00 This is J. Krishnamurti’s fourteenth discussion with teachers and students at Brockwood Park, 1975.
0:12 Krishnamurti: What shall we talk about this morning?
0:28 Questioner: Personal relationship.
0:36 K: I think we talked a great deal about that, haven’t we?
0:45 Do you want to talk about it, or something else?
0:49 Q: Could we talk about expression, self-expression?
0:55 K: Self-expression.
0:56 Q: And suppression.
0:57 K: Do you want to talk about that? Come on, this is your discussion, a dialogue between you and ourselves, between all of us, so what would you like to talk about?
1:17 We talked about, the other day when we were here, respect, and also we talked about the necessity of that deep respect, so that you respect nature, each other and so on.
1:47 From there, what would you like to talk about further, taking that as the basis?
1:56 Q: We have talked a great deal, we have discussed a great deal about many different things, but what is the central issue, what is the centre with which...
2:24 K: ...all these problems could be solved?
2:30 Q: Yes.
2:32 K: Good. Tungki—Tungki, you know, the man with the aeroplane—he asks: we’ve got so many problems in life—moral, physical, religious, economic and so on; what is the centre or what is the central principle, central movement, central state, central quality from which you can answer all these problems?
3:23 Right?
3:24 Q: Yes.
3:26 K: What do you think it is?
3:29 Q: Can we start by asking what a problem is?
3:36 K: What a problem is—we talked about that a little bit too.
3:43 A problem, we said, is that which is not resolved but continues day after day, which is not gone through, finished, which is not resolved.
3:57 I don’t know, I haven’t looked up the word ‘problem’ really, the root meaning of it.
4:05 It means that.
4:12 So what is the quality of a mind, Tungki asks, which would resolve these problems without creating further problems, without getting more and more involved in side issues, but to resolve these problems once and for all?
4:41 Right, Tungki? Right. Now, what do you think is the central... is that quality of a mind?
4:52 You understand? We’ve got problems of personal relationship: the violence in relationship, the disappointments, the hurts, the various imaginative, speculative fears, pleasures, the sexual problems—all these issues we are confronted with, we have to face them every day of our life in different ways.
5:38 One day it is this and the next day it is the same thing under a different cloak, and so on, so on, so on.
5:46 All through life we have to face these problems. And Tungki says, is there a central... or is there a mind, is there a quality of a mind that will solve these problems and not carry on with them?
6:06 Now, answer this.
6:14 (Pause) You’re all silent?
6:24 The students are all silent?
6:28 Q: Well, we know from what you’ve said before that it’s a mind free from tradition.
6:41 K: Yes, a mind free from tradition—but the quality of a mind.
6:48 (Pause) Come on, you’re all...
6:52 Q: Bruce asked you the question, ‘What is a problem?’ and you answered, ‘Something which is carried over.’ K: No.
7:09 Q: Sorry, at a certain point you mentioned that.
7:12 K: No, I said a problem means that which is not resolved but carried over from day to day to day and burden, involving fear, misery, confusion, conflict, sorrow.
7:26 Q: It seems to me it’s connected to...
7:32 K: Answer that question, Tungki. You put that question yourself first, so find out.
7:42 If you’re confronted with this problem, what is your answer? How do you answer it? Just sit back and not... just let... shrug your shoulders?
7:48 Q: Well, I don’t know whether it’s fair, but I think it over quite a bit and it seems that I’m not willing to... a certain part of the mind is willing to give up something but the other part doesn’t...
8:16 K: No, Tungki, that’s not the problem, that’s not the issue.
8:21 Q: Is it possible at all to solve all your problems?
8:26 K: Is it at all possible to solve all the problems?
8:34 Is it at all possible to solve the problems of war, where each nation is spending billions and billions of dollars, pounds, roubles on armaments?
8:50 Can you solve it? And there is inflation in this country, poverty in India, starvation in Africa—can you solve those?
9:05 Q: Are they problems or are they situations?
9:11 K: The problems are for the people who’ve got to face them. You can’t call them the situations; they have got to face this. How will you—no, I’m asking—how will you... can you solve this problem of those people who are starving in Africa?
9:28 Q: Well, I think there is two types of problem then because you said there is the sort of problem which is...
9:42 K: Therefore we say there is the external problems—the wars, economic condition, inflation, starvation, armaments, national divisions; outside—and there are so-called personal relationships, so-called personal problems involving relationship with each other or with a community.
10:05 There are problems of suffering in oneself: fear, the agony of loneliness, suffering, death, not only the death of millions of people out there, but also death of oneself and one’s friend.
10:30 All these are issues we have to resolve or understand or say, ‘I can’t do anything about that, but I can do something about this.’ But in solving this, perhaps it will affect that.
10:47 Right, Bruce? Right? Are we together in this?
10:52 Q: Yes.
10:53 K: Right. Now what shall we... Now, what do you think is the quality of a mind that can see clearly, not only the personal but the impersonal and the collective and put order in this?
11:22 We said the art is to put things in the right place, where it belongs.
11:38 So what is the mind that can do this?
11:46 I can see war between the Jews and the Arabs, the Muslims and the Hindus, out there, and I can see the causes of it, as much as I can, and I can see that one of the causes is nationalism.
12:15 Right? So, am I a national? I see that out there, the causes of it, and I see that in me as long as there is this nationality spirit, the worship of my country, my people, my belief, my flag and so on, must inevitably create division and therefore one of the causes of war is that division, and do I, in my thought, in my being, belong to any community?
12:56 Do you follow? As long as I do I am contributing to that. Right? Do we all... Bene? Can we go on from there? Now, what is the mind that sees that?
13:17 What is the quality? What is it that makes the mind have this insight? You understand? You have an insight into it and you say, ‘No, I won’t do that.’ (Pause) Q: Well, I could say something but it sounds too simple.
14:01 K: Let it be simple.
14:08 Perhaps when you...
14:09 Q: Just honesty.
14:11 K: Honesty? Honesty in thinking.
14:13 Q: And speech and action and everything else.
14:14 K: Yes, honesty. Now, will honesty solve this problem? Honesty of suffering out there, suffering in here—will honesty solve it?
14:23 Being very honest—what does that mean?
14:31 Not deceiving oneself, not be prejudiced.
14:40 Would you say honesty is seeing things as they are?
14:49 Not coloured by me or coloured by my prejudice or coloured by or influenced by propaganda—to see things as actually as they are.
14:59 Would you call that honesty?
15:00 Q: No, honesty has more to do with your outward dealings with things.
15:21 There must be another word to suit what you’ve just said.
15:24 K: Would you use the word ‘clarity’?
15:27 Q: Yes, I was just going to say clarity.
15:38 K: Clarity. Clarity of a mind which because it is clear, unconfused, honest, integral, whole—it’s not broken up—such a mind has a clear perception.
15:51 Would you say that? Have you got such a mind? No? How do you know? Have you watched your own mind and see that it’s confused and therefore a confused mind creates its own problems?
16:17 Are you aware? We went into the question of awareness. Conscious, know, recognise, seeing—all that is implied in that word ‘awareness’.
16:31 Are you aware that your mind is confused? Are you aware?
16:41 Q: I think it is very necessary to be also aware of the fact that if you say...
16:56 Aware of the fact, or what I see to be the fact, that if you...
16:59 K: We said that. We said that: aware. Am I—listen—am I aware and you aware that your mind is unclear?
17:07 Q: Yes, but if you say, ‘My mind is confused,’ or, ‘My mind is not clear,’ then that really implies a state which is rather defeatist in a way.
17:26 K: No, that confusion may be constantly moving; it may not be static.
17:35 Q: Yes, but when you say, ‘My mind is confused,’ that implies that...
17:40 K: Keep it simple. Keep it very simple. Are you aware, all of us here as students, are you aware that your mind is confused?
17:51 Be simple about it. Are you...
17:59 Q: Are you looking for a yes or no answer?
18:04 K: I want to know. What’s the good of my asking a question and you keeping silent? Does silent mean consent? Because you’re all silent therefore you agree that your minds are confused—is that it?
18:20 Q: Sometimes it seems to be confused and at other times there is more clarity.
18:29 K: There is a cloudy day and an uncloudy day—is that it?
18:38 Q: Yes.
18:40 K: One day you are very clear, next day you are confused. And—listen carefully—and one day when you’re clear your actions are all right, perfect, and when you are confused your actions are confused.
18:57 So what happens? One day clear action, the next day unclear action. Right? So what happens?
19:09 Q: When you put that all together it’s confusion.
19:15 K: Half the year you are confused (laughs) and half the other year unconfused—what happens?
19:21 Q: I think we are confused as to what answer you want from us. That’s my confusion. What answer will be acceptable to you?
19:33 K: Not with me. I’m not interested in how you accept my answer. That is absurd.
19:46 Isn’t there conflict between confused action and unconfused action?
19:53 Right?
19:54 Q: You mean because you have experienced then...
19:58 K: Confused—they are conflicting actions. One day I’m good, the next day I’m bad. The result is—what happens? Come on.
20:08 Q: I don’t quite see.
20:10 K: Wait, wait, Tungki. So we’re asking: what is... are you aware that your mind is confused?
20:19 Oh, come on.
20:21 Q: Yes.
20:22 K: Yes? Agree—it is so. Don’t pretend about it, don’t be silent about it.
20:30 Q: Can you be sort of half aware? I mean conscious but not aware of it. What is awareness?
20:36 K: Wait. Do you know your mind is confused?
20:38 Q: Yes.
20:39 K: Yes. Then how do you know? Who knows that your mind is confused?
20:43 Q: Thought.
20:45 K: Do listen to my question. When you say, ‘I am confused; I know I am confused,’ who is it that says, ‘I am confused’?
21:04 Q: My confused mind.
21:09 K: The confused mind says that I’m confused? Think about it a little bit. Watch it. I say, ‘I am confused.’ So how do you know that you are confused?
21:32 Are you comparing that confusion with the days that you are not confused, therefore you say you are confused?
21:42 You follow? By comparing confusion with clarity you say then, ‘I am confused.’ Right?
21:57 Is not comparison itself confusion? Or is that too much?
22:10 (Pause) What do the clever ones say?
22:18 What do you say? I compare myself with you and I say because you are clear... and I say to myself, ‘I am confused,’ because you are clear.
22:37 If there was no comparison, what would happen then?
22:57 (Pause) I compare myself with you who are clever, bright, clear.
23:17 In comparing myself with you I feel I am confused. Right? If I don’t compare, what happens?
23:29 Q: I feel like myself.
23:34 K: No. Then would I use the word ‘confusion’? Oh, come on, sirs.
23:42 Q: One may see confusion without it arising out of comparing.
23:49 K: I can see the confusion out there, outside, in politics, in economics, in war and all that.
23:57 Inside myself I am confused. Am I confused because I compare? Do answer that question.
24:04 Q: Yes, comparison must mean a duality of conflicts.
24:08 K: So you say, ‘Through comparison I find I’m confused.’ Q: Yes, but one may also see confusion...
24:15 K: Wait, I’m going step by step. So through comparison I have found that I’m confused. Why do I compare?
24:32 Is it one of our conditionings? At school we compare... you are compared with another. The whole way of our thinking is comparative, isn’t it? Mr Joe?
24:46 Q: I’m thinking more of confusion as when you have two ideas as to what...
24:55 K: Wait, I’m going slowly, sir.
25:02 Take when I compare myself with you who are bright and therefore I say, ‘I am not bright,’ if I don’t compare, what actually takes place?
25:15 Q: I see the fact as it is. I see what it is.
25:23 K: You see what actually is.
25:26 Q: Yes.
25:27 K: What is ‘actually is’ when I don’t compare myself with you?
25:30 Q: How it is.
25:31 K: What is?
25:32 Q: You are asking now?
25:36 Q: Comparison by its nature must use a word, and if one uses the word ‘bright’ or this or that...
25:50 K: We understand, the verbal... I understand.
25:52 Q: But if you don’t put that word on it, the comparison... The conditioned word—now, without that word then there would... if you don’t use the word, then the mind would not fall into the pattern that that word brings up.
26:12 K: I understand. I see you are tall; I am short.
26:21 I see you are taller than I am. The word is not tall; the actually is he is taller than me.
26:31 So in comparing myself with you I feel smaller.
26:36 Q: But that’s because the word ‘tall’... (inaudible) K: No, forget the word, forget the word—the actuality.
26:44 So I am asking you something very simple: what happens if you don’t compare?
26:51 Q: Then there’s no problem.
26:56 K: No, look at it, sir—what happens?
27:03 Q: I can relate to you without feeling frightened of you, without feeling inferior.
27:08 K: No, no. Look, please, just watch. You’re bright and I’m not. Apart from the meaning of the word, the actual fact is you are very bright.
27:20 And comparing myself with you, I say, ‘By Jove, I am dull, not so alive, bright.’ And if I don’t compare, what am I?
27:36 Q: I’m neither bright nor dull. I’m whatever I am, neither bright nor dull.
27:42 K: Therefore what does it mean? Go on, don’t just stick there.
27:47 Q: There’s no barrier between me and you.
27:50 K: No, no, no, it isn’t a question of barrier.
27:52 Q: You’re left with what you are.
27:59 K: Now, what am I? If I don’t—listen carefully—if I don’t compare myself with you who are bright, I don’t call myself then dull, do I?
28:12 Q: No.
28:13 K: Now wait a minute. Then what am I?
28:17 Q: Nothing.
28:19 K: No, Tungki. (Laughter) Q: No, I mean...
28:25 K: Then you exist only through comparison?
28:28 Q: Yes.
28:29 K: Tungki, go slow. Go slow, Tungki.
28:34 Q: Isn’t it?
28:36 K: Tungki exists only because he compares himself with me or with you?
28:43 Q: Well...
28:44 K: Stick to it, old boy, stick to it.
28:59 So I’m asking you: is confusion brought about through comparison?
29:10 Or without comparison, confusion is. (Laughs) This is a little too much.
29:25 Is this too much?
29:27 Q: No.
29:30 Q: Just that last sentence. (Laughter) K: You want the last sentence?
29:37 Q: The last two sentences.
29:39 K: Now wait a minute. Wait, you want the last sentence—why? Why didn’t you hear it the first time? Wait. Why didn’t you hear the first time? Because your mind was wandering?
29:56 Q: I didn’t understand it. I heard it.
30:00 K: You were not paying attention? Sorry, I’m not quizzing you, I’m not beating you. So because you are not paying attention you say, ‘Please, repeat that again.’ Doesn’t that indicate disrespect?
30:17 Q: I had the same problem.
30:23 K: Uno momento, per favore. Un instant, je vous pris. We went into this the other day. You tell me something and I’m not giving you my attention.
30:36 I say, ‘Please, would you kindly repeat that again?’ Either I don’t understand what you said or I was not paying attention.
30:49 If I don’t understand what you said, that is not disrespect—I don’t understand what you’re talking.
30:56 Though I’m listening to you, I don’t understand. But I am not attentive to what you is being said, because it means I have to repeat it.
31:09 You are asking me to waste my energy in repetition, which is disrespect. I won’t go into all that; we went into it the other day. So you say without comparison there is confusion.
31:30 Is that so? Wait a minute. You’re hungry. By comparing the man who is hungry, do you become hungry? Or you are hungry. You follow what I’m saying? In the same way, are you without comparing to clarity saying, ‘Yes, I see actually that I’m confused.’ Can you say that?
32:08 Q: Yes.
32:09 Q: But then would that confusion have arisen without comparison in the first place?
32:15 K: I’m going to go into that. He asked: would that confusion arise if I didn’t compare?
32:25 Q: If you hadn’t compared.
32:30 K: No, look, do you compare? There is war and you say, ‘Well, peace...’—by comparing war with peace you say there is war?
32:45 Or there is war: killing each other.
32:47 Q: There is war, but I’m asking why did the war...
32:51 K: That’s a different matter. We can go into why war exists. I am asking you: are you aware of confusion? Not comparing order with confusion. Have you got it? Have you? Now, are you aware of your confusion?
33:22 And who says that you are confused?
33:24 Q: Sir, in your awareness of that confusion you are referring to a something, are you not?
33:33 You are referring to something. The way you become aware of the confusion, it’s with reference to a condition, a relationship, a something.
33:47 K: I’ll tell you. All right, confusion—what do I mean by confusion? Contradiction in oneself, opposing desires, wanting this and not wanting that, wanting to be good and doing something other than what is good—right?—fear that creates confusion, sadness, and so on.
34:19 We say confusion is contradiction—taking that in a few words.
34:26 Where there is contradiction in me—contradiction being opposing desires, opposing objects of pursuits, opposing demands, pleasure and fear—if that exists in me, I am confused.
34:53 Right? Right? Would you agree to that? So, I see that, therefore I’m not comparing. I see the fact that is. So I say, ‘I am confused,’ not the moments I am not confused.
35:19 I don’t know if... Then what do I do?
35:29 Q: Before you go further, what is that that sees this confusion—that you’ve asked us before?
35:38 K: Yes, I asked you: who is it that sees this confusion? Something, a fragment, a broken piece of your thought that sees the confusion?
35:56 Or there is only confusion.
36:03 Q: I was wondering, must there be a separate entity?
36:12 K: Tungki, Tungki, did you hear what I said?
36:17 Q: Yes.
36:18 K: I said, is there somebody who says, ‘I am confused,’ outside, looking in, says, ‘I am confused’?
36:33 Or there is only confusion. Confusion. Not I see confusion or I am confused—there is only confusion.
36:51 When I say, ‘I am confused,’ is the ‘I’ different from confusion?
37:00 When I say, ‘I am angry,’ is my anger different from myself? Do you remember, we talked about it the other day? You may... not ‘remember’—are you doing all this or just talking about it?
37:16 So the way actually is—look at it for yourself, you will see it—we think we are confused.
37:29 Right? That is, confusion is something different from the fact, from the observer who says, ‘I am confused.’ Is the observer who says, ‘I am confused,’ different from the confusion?
37:51 Q: Krishnaji, don’t you seem to be playing with words?
37:59 K: No, I’m not playing with words.
38:04 Q: But if you say, ‘I am confused.’ K: That’s all—I am confused—not what you will do about it.
38:12 Q: No, no, right.
38:13 K: What you will do about it is the entity that says, ‘I can do something about it,’ the observer who says, ‘I can do something about it.’ You understand, Nelson?
38:25 Do listen to this. This is quite interesting. Listen. When you are angry, is that anger different from you?
38:41 Q: No.
38:45 K: Be simple, very simple. You are that anger. Then what happens?
38:54 Q: Then you live with that anger.
39:00 K: Yes, you live with that anger.
39:01 Q: You don’t... (inaudible) K: Wait, go slowly, go slowly. You live with that anger. What do you mean by living with that anger? Not you live with that anger.
39:09 Q: No, well...
39:11 K: You see? You are that anger. So, what... You say... What do you say?
39:16 Q: There is only anger.
39:17 K: You’re anger. Then what? (Laughs) Q: You see the fact that there is anger and you don’t try to escape from it.
39:30 K: No, you... I... You see, you know what action is? And do you know what inaction is? Oh, I see. Phew!
39:42 Q: We can see that the anger is amongst us now and we are looking at it... (inaudible) K: No, I want to tackle it differently.
39:57 Q: So you’re saying that there is action?
40:01 K: Nelson, listen to this. You know, I’m asking what action is. What is action? Getting up, talking, doing, going—right?—moving.
40:20 It is a movement. And do you know what is not action?
40:36 Q: I don’t think I do.
40:40 Q: We passively observe.
40:46 K: Look, I act according to my ideals, if I have ideals.
40:53 I act according to my faith, if I have faith. I act according to my concept, conclusion, according to my political belief, according to my conviction.
41:17 So I act according to something. Right? Are you following this? If am a Catholic, I act according to my conditioning as a Catholic.
41:36 Right? Right?
41:38 Q: But you also observe.
41:40 K: I’m taking that, very simple—keep it simple. Now, if I’m not a Catholic, I don’t belong to any organised group—Catholic, Protestant, communists, Mao and so on—I don’t belong to any of that, nor to any belief, ideal—you follow?—conclusion.
42:05 Then what is my action? (Pause) Why are you hesitating?
42:15 Q: Well, you just end up doing what needs to be done.
42:31 K: You act according to a belief.
42:40 I act without belief, but I act.
42:50 Your action creates confusion because you’re acting according to a belief—right?—therefore it is inaction, it is no action at all.
43:06 I wonder if you see it. Well, leave it. Leave it, it’s too much.
43:20 Q: Can we pursue that a bit more?
43:28 Can we elaborate or pursue it further?
43:35 K: I see, you want to elaborate. Look, you see, I see anger—I’m angry—and I act about it, don’t I?
43:45 I say, ‘I mustn’t be angry, I must control it.’ I rationalise it, I say, ‘Why shouldn’t I be angry?’ Therefore I am doing something about it.
43:56 Q: And that you can say is action.
43:57 K: Wait, wait, keep it, I’ll go into, I’m going into it.
44:04 I do something about it. Right? Understood?
44:08 Q: Yes, but...
44:10 K: Wait, wait, wait—slow. But if I am anger, I can’t do anything about it.
44:18 Q: But, sir, is it relevant to ask, are we only that?
44:23 K: Wait. Wait a minute. Wait a minute, have you got this?
44:35 If I am anger or if I am that, what can I do?
44:49 Q: Might you also be at the same time other things, or only anger?
44:51 K: I’m only taking that one thing.
44:53 Q: Yes, I know, but if one is only anger, suppose, then does anger do anything except be angry, be anger?
45:05 K: No, please, you are taking this away differently. Please, just... I act, I do something about anger. Don’t you? Control it, say, ‘Yes, why shouldn’t I be angry?’—suppress it or try to control it and go beyond it.
45:22 You are doing something about anger. Right? But if you are anger, what can you do? You can’t do what you’re habituated to do. Right? You follow that, Nelson? Then what happens?
45:46 Q: There is still a movement.
45:48 K: Wait, find out, don’t... Find out what is that movement.
46:03 I see when I act on anger there is a division between me and anger.
46:11 Right? When there is no division I am that anger, I can’t do anything about it.
46:26 Right? If I am brown, dark skin, what can I do about it? I am that. But if I say, ‘No, lighter skin is more fashionable,’ then I’ll do something about it.
46:50 So—just follow it—if I am anger I can’t do anything about it.
47:02 It is. Right? That is the truth.
47:16 What I do about anger is not truth. I wonder if you get it.
47:29 Mr Joe? So what can I do?
47:34 Q: When you say that you do something...
47:36 K: Wait, wait. I can’t do anything about anger. I am that. So there is total inaction about anger.
47:52 Before I acted on it and gave it life, but if I can’t do anything—I am that—there is inaction with regard to that.
48:13 Therefore it is dead. Oh, you don’t get it.
48:15 Q: Sir, is it only when you act on it that you create a division?
48:16 K: Of course.
48:17 Q: If you have brown skin, it’s brown—that’s it, finished, you can’t do anything about it.
48:19 K: It’s finished.
48:21 Q: That’s the end.
48:24 K: That’s all. Now, if you get that principle...
48:30 Q: Does it have a momentum of its own?
48:42 K: No, momentum—thought has given, when there is a division, that I can do something about it. That’s one kind of momentum, one kind of energy expended on anger and therefore furthering confusion.
48:59 But when there is anger and nothing can be done, what happens?
49:09 You don’t see that.
49:11 Q: There’s nothing more to be said.
49:14 K: Wait. Nothing more to be said—therefore what does that mean?
49:18 Q: That’s it, that’s...
49:21 K: Go on, go on, investigate it, Bruce, go into it, don’t stop there.
49:30 Q: (Inaudible) K: If I can’t say anything about it—which means what?—verbalise it...
49:37 Q: Just be it.
49:39 K: No. You see, when you say, ‘Just be’...
49:43 Q: Yes, that implies division.
49:45 K: Exactly.
49:46 Q: So I can’t say anything about it at all, which... (inaudible) K: So, since you can’t say anything about it verbally, does it exist?
49:59 Q: I can’t say anything now.
50:00 K: (Laughs) No. No, you’re not going through with it.
50:02 Q: Verbalising extends it so that if you’re not verbalising it...
50:13 K: No, no, madame, it’s not so easy as all that, don’t just brush it off.
50:24 Go into it, you will see.
50:34 Look, there’s something happening with regard to... with which I’m concerned in a certain part of the world.
50:47 Something is happening which is not quite right. And as I am connected with that, I am related, something to do with it, I can’t do anything at this distance.
51:01 You follow? So I leave it. I’m not worrying about it, I’m not saying, ‘Oh, my Lord, what am I to do?’ this, that and the other.
51:13 I leave it. You follow? What takes place? You don’t...
51:21 Q: What is the capacity to be able to leave it? Because most of my time I’m not able to leave it.
51:33 K: That’s just it—I’m telling you—that’s just it. Because you want to do something about it. So you are different from that. It leads to all kinds of complications, but we won’t go into that now.
51:53 So I’m asking you: are you aware, know, that you are confused?
52:02 You are confusion—not that you are confused.
52:12 Would you admit to that? Would you say, ‘No, it’s not like that’?
52:14 Q: This is the thing which...
52:26 I cannot see it properly, I don’t know why.
52:30 K: Tungki, we went into this the other day, this way: are you the black hair?
52:40 Are you the brown shirt or blue shirt? Are you the eyes, the nose, the body? Are you the character, the Indonesian country, conditioning? What are you? You’re all that, aren’t you? Or you are something totally different from all that?
53:07 Q: It’s more complex. I mean...
53:11 K: Or you might imagine that you’re God: ‘Oh no, I am none of these things but I am supreme being,’ or supreme cuckoo!
53:28 Q: Then that means I’m only what I imagine.
53:39 You seem to indicate that I’m only what I imagine.
53:44 K: That’s all.
53:45 Q: Yes, yes.
53:46 K: Wait, wait. You are only what you imagine, what you think you are.
53:49 Q: That’s right, yes.
53:52 K: Yes. So you think you are angry.
54:00 Of course. You think you are confused, so you act upon it, don’t you? You say, ‘I must not be confused. How shall I get rid of my confusion? What can I do? Shall I take a tranquilliser? Shall I go and talk to the guru, go and read a book, find out why I’m confused, go to an analyst and...’—you are acting.
54:22 But if you can’t act because you are that, what will you do?
54:31 What happens?
54:32 Q: May I ask one question?
54:34 K: Please, outside. You ask your question.
54:38 Q: Is it all right?
54:39 K: Je vous en pris.
54:40 Q: What is the state of consciousness in which it is possible for this—I won’t say statement—for this situation to arise, that this is so?
55:00 K: What is the state of consciousness that sees it is?
55:08 Q: Because it is linked up to the first question which was asked, which was: what is the central issue, the central point?
55:10 K: Which clears up, yes.
55:11 Q: It is that state of consciousness which is capable of seeing things as they are.
55:22 K: Yes.
55:24 Q: Now, the investigation into that state of consciousness, it will I think...
55:34 K: Yes. You understand, Tungki? You asked a question and she’s trying to explain your question, which is: what is the state of consciousness—do you remember, we talked about consciousness.
55:51 We said consciousness is its content.
55:58 Without the content what we know as consciousness is not.
56:07 Right? Our state of consciousness is that I’m an Englishman or a Frenchman or a Hindu, Buddhist; I am a job, I am the minister, I am this—you follow?—I am the furniture, I belong, my house, my wife, my family—all that is the content of my consciousness.
56:30 And that content makes my consciousness. The content makes that consciousness. Now, in that content and that consciousness, what is it—listen carefully—what is it that brings about clarity?
56:52 Right?
56:54 Q: First of all, can anything in that content bring about clarity?
57:05 K: Answer, answer it, Nelson, you go into it, answer Mrs Jayakar.
57:08 Q: If there is always confusion and always wanting to be something...
57:16 K: It’s a little more... Go into it, Nelson, look. You understand? You don’t quite see the problem. My content of my consciousness is all that I have learnt, all that has been put into me, all the knowledge which I have acquired, all the experience—you follow?—the pain, the suffering, the agony, the toothache, the quarrels, the misunderstandings, the hurts, the loneliness, the jealousy, my prestige, my position, I am this—all that is my consciousness.
57:59 Right? Not ‘right?’—it is so, isn’t it? Now, what brings into this content, into this enormous movement with its...—what brings into it clarity?
58:19 That’s our question.
58:20 Q: Is it first necessary to recognise the confusion there, that it’s all confusion?
58:25 K: No, go beyond. I understand, sir. Answer her question.
58:31 Q: Is it right to say that if you see the confusion very clearly, then as you are the confusion you are also the clarity?
58:52 K: No, sir. No, no. No, no. No, no. This room, this hall, exists because of these walls, the roof, the floor, the windows, doors and the chairs, the carpet, the colour.
59:17 That makes the room. In the same way your consciousness is what it contains, what it holds.
59:31 Right? In that consciousness is there an entity, is there something that says, ‘I see’?
59:42 It’s very... please, this is too... this is really a very important question because the ancients, Christians as well as Asiatic people, said there is: there is God, the higher self, the supreme thing in you that in spite of all this confusion, in spite of all the movement of the content of consciousness, that thing sees.
1:00:20 You understand? You follow this? Oh. Now, is that a fact, or is it invented by a man who said, ‘My God, I’m so confused I must have something outside which is clear and put it in my consciousness and say it is there’?
1:00:45 You understand?
1:00:46 Q: It is the same consciousness which tries to do something about it.
1:00:57 K: Yes.
1:00:59 Q: It is the same consciousness also which says, ‘I see.’ K: That’s what I... That’s just it. You follow what she’s saying? (Inaudible) Now let’s go slowly.
1:01:15 I said the content of my consciousness is consciousness.
1:01:27 In that consciousness I also say, ‘I see.’ Q: Which is not the same as being the anger because...
1:01:40 Q: What is ‘being anger’?
1:01:41 K: No, we are not meeting my point. Take it slowly, please. I am exploring.
1:01:49 Q: What...
1:01:50 K: Tungki, look, old boy, just listen to me. It is like a doctor operating. He is exploring to find out where the cancer, the disease is. As he’s exploring, you don’t say, ‘Look, look, do this, do that’—you follow him.
1:02:11 Right? He may be wrong but you follow him to find out if he’s wrong, help him to find out.
1:02:19 You understand, Nelson? We are exploring together. Now begin again. We say... I say as the doctor, my content—no—the content of consciousness is consciousness, the two are not separate.
1:02:45 The wall, the roof, the floor make the room. Right? Now, in that consciousness, being aware of that consciousness, I say, ‘I see.’ Right?
1:03:04 Who is it that sees, or who is it that says, ‘I understand’?
1:03:14 You are following this?
1:03:18 Q: Yes.
1:03:20 Q: Another piece of furniture in the room.
1:03:28 K: You say it is another piece of... another fragment in that consciousness.
1:03:36 Are you saying that? Be clear, sir, don’t guess at it. This isn’t... because the patient dies if you guess—you follow? (Laughs) Q: May I try to elaborate your illustration of the room?
1:03:50 K: Don’t elaborate, sir. Look, we are...
1:03:52 Q: No, may I say something?
1:03:54 K: Yes. That’s a different thing. (Laughter) Q: No, I didn’t mean elaborate—I want to say something.
1:04:03 The room is made by the roof, the walls and the floor. The centre of the room is empty, we can see that. Because it is empty we can look at each other. If there was a piece of furniture in the middle, I couldn’t see you.
1:04:19 K: So you’re saying: there is in my consciousness a space which is empty, and because it is empty, from that emptiness I see.
1:04:34 As your illustration, that little space is not occupied—go slow, sir, take time, don’t...
1:04:42 we’re not fighting each other—that little space is not occupied. If it was occupied then there would be no seeing.
1:04:55 Because it is not occupied I see. So out of... you see because there is space.
1:05:10 Just a minute, I am exploring, don’t jump on me yet.
1:05:13 Q: Is that space inside or outside?
1:05:19 K: No, inside.
1:05:21 Q: Because inside is content.
1:05:25 K: Wait. That’s right, that’s right, stick to it! The wall...—please bear this in mind. We are getting somewhere. If you go step by step you will get it. This room exists because there is space outside, and that big space outside has been enclosed into little space.
1:05:55 Right? The content of my consciousness is consciousness, and when I say there is a space or when there is a little entity that sees, it is still the content.
1:06:08 Which you just now said. Right? So, is there an actual space or invented space as a content?
1:06:25 You understand my question?
1:06:41 How do I know there is space when I am all this?
1:06:48 Is that another invention who says, ‘Yes, I’ve got a little space, from which I see.’ Mr Rowlands pointed out: because there is little space in this room which is not occupied—if it was occupied there would be no seeing—because it’s unoccupied from that unoccupied space I see you all, I see the content of my consciousness.
1:07:25 If there is no space, what happens? I don’t see. So then I invent a space because I must see, I must understand, I must get over this.
1:07:48 Q: Krishnaji, that’s what I’m doing right now, actually.
1:08:02 I’m absolutely full of the desire to get up and walk out.
1:08:12 K: Now?
1:08:13 Q: Yes.
1:08:14 K: Get up—wait—get up and walk out.
1:08:16 Q: Really. Yes, that’s what I feel like doing.
1:08:19 K: Do it!
1:08:20 Q: But now I don’t feel like doing it. (Laughter) For the past half an hour I’ve been sitting here trying to figure out why I want to get up and walk out.
1:08:23 K: Then you should get up and walk out.
1:08:24 Q: I know.
1:08:25 K: You won’t insult me.
1:08:26 Q: I know I won’t insult you but...
1:08:27 K: They won’t... I mean, if they mind, a little noise, they’ll say, ‘Well...’ they’ll get over it, and you walk out.
1:08:30 Q: Exactly.
1:08:31 K: Why don’t you do it? Why don’t you do it?
1:08:33 Q: Well, now I don’t feel like doing it.
1:08:34 K: All right, sit down. (Laughs) No, this is too serious; you really you don’t know what all the implications in it.
1:08:44 This is a problem to be discussed with people who work at this, not play at it.
1:08:56 You see, when I say, ‘I see the tree,’ there is a space between me and the tree, therefore I see it.
1:09:09 Right? If there is no space, what happens?
1:09:20 Oh, you people, that’s why you can’t discuss.
1:09:26 Q: Is...
1:09:27 K: Look, Tungki, this is really too... Look, old boy, you see, we are used or conditioned, we are encouraged and educated to do something about everything—right?—stop wars, stop poverty, stop this, that, the other thing.
1:09:54 That’s our conditioning: do. And in doing we are creating more and more and more confusion. Right? You’re selling armament to Egypt and armament to Israel. So—you follow? And somebody comes along and says, ‘Look, don’t do anything but look.
1:10:21 The very look will bring action.’ Q: Now...
1:10:27 K: Wait, Tungki! Listen quietly first. You’ve understood what I’ve said? I’m used to acting about everything—about my wife, about my quarrel, about the government, about Egypt, about Tel Aviv, Jerusalem or India, this—I am used to... move, act.
1:10:55 You come along and tell me, ‘Before you act, old boy, just look what is taking place.
1:11:03 Look. And look without prejudice. Don’t take sides, don’t be a communist or anti-communist but look.’ And you say, ‘No, I can’t look, I must do something.’ Right?
1:11:23 And that is our problem. And I am saying to you, ‘Don’t do anything but look, listen.’ And I say, is there space in your mind from which you can look?
1:11:44 Or there is no space and therefore you can’t look.
1:11:50 Q: Are you implying that it’s bad if there is no space from which you can look?
1:11:57 K: I’m not implying. How can I look at you if there is no space between you and me? If I am right up against your nose, how can I see you?
1:12:10 I must have a little space, a distance from you, for me to look at you.
1:12:24 I can’t look at you if that little space is occupied by my prejudice, by my content, by my...—you follow?
1:12:32 Q: So you have to get rid of it all.
1:12:39 K: No. Who is it that is going to get rid of it? That’s part of your content. (Laughs) So... You see, you’re all used to doing something: getting rid of, kicking it out, getting up and walking out.
1:13:04 And somebody comes along and says, ‘Wait, wait, wait. Wait a minute, look at it, look what is happening inside you and outside. Look what is happening.’ And to look what is happening you must have a little space.
1:13:26 Wait. Do you create that space, or the very urgency of looking creates the space?
1:13:39 Do you understand what I’m talking about?
1:13:42 Q: Isn’t it the same? I don’t quite see the difference between the two.
1:13:51 K: Nor am I. I want to understand you, Tungki, what you are saying.
1:14:00 I really do. I’m not pretending. I say, ‘What is he talking about?’—not insultingly—I really want to listen to you.
1:14:13 And to listen I must pay attention, mustn’t I? That means my thoughts mustn’t be wandering all over the place. I mustn’t say to myself, ‘Oh, for goodness sake, it’s a bore.’ I listen to you.
1:14:29 In the same way I am listening—listening—to the content of my consciousness.
1:14:40 Not what to do about it. I am observing the room: the walls, the roof, the colour of the roof, the colour of the walls.
1:14:55 I don’t say, ‘I like it,’ or, ‘This is good,’ or beautiful, I’m just looking.
1:15:02 In the same way, I am looking at the content of my consciousness, and I’m looking not as an observer looking, but I am that content, the observer is that content.
1:15:21 So he’s just... he is without a movement, he is totally without action in looking.
1:15:38 He is... the entity that is thinking, working, acting is made stationary, immobile.
1:15:47 You understand? Therefore... (Laughs) You won’t see this.
1:15:55 Q: Excuse me. Last time...
1:15:57 K: Tungki, Tungki, Tungki, did you hear what I said? Not what you think. I said, Tungki, I listen to you very carefully, so kindly listen to me equally carefully.
1:16:11 And I say, I am that. The whole of that content of my consciousness is me. I can’t do anything about the content. If I do, I’m introducing another content, a new content called Brahmin, a new content called Atman, a new content called the soul or Krishna conscience or some blasted idiocy.
1:16:42 Right? But it’s still within the framework of that consciousness. Right? Do you see that? Do you see that? Do you hear it? Have I verbally explained to you?
1:16:58 Q: Yes.
1:17:00 K: Right. Now, I said—next step is—I see it not as something separate from me: I am that.
1:17:12 Right?
1:17:15 Q: I can’t...
1:17:24 K: You have got to see this. I am that. I am anger—to which you agreed.
1:17:37 Q: Yes, but I don’t fully contain that.
1:17:44 I mean, there are certain parts still saying, ‘Yes, but something.’ Do you understand what I mean?
1:17:53 K: The ‘yes but something’ is still part of the consciousness. (Laughs) Q: Yes. Can that be emptied?
1:18:05 K: I’m going into it, Tungki, repeating it in a different way. I am that. Because I am that, there is no movement of thought.
1:18:21 Thought is absolutely motionless.
1:18:33 It becomes active the moment I say I must do something about it.
1:18:40 This is too much. So there is—you see, this is it; we’ll discuss this afternoon with Dr Bohm at four o’clock this problem—action... the movement of the content of consciousness is creating time, all the rest of it, and there is a perception which is absolutely motionless.
1:19:13 Because perception is motionless. So what takes place when there is an absolutely motionless state and a movement?
1:19:35 This is too much.
1:19:36 Q: May I say a little more about this space? It has just occurred. The physical space between us, which we know about, involves time. I know that to walk over to that platform will take me perhaps two seconds.
1:20:01 K: Yes.
1:20:02 Q: And that space is between two things.
1:20:04 K: Yes.
1:20:05 Q: But the space of perception is not between two things.
1:20:10 K: Wait, go slow—why do you say that?
1:20:16 Q: I’m suggesting. It doesn’t involve time.
1:20:20 K: Why do you say that?
1:20:22 Q: Because it doesn’t take me time to see you.
1:20:23 K: Sir, to move from here to there takes time. So time is movement.
1:20:28 Q: Yes, and that is my knowledge.
1:20:31 K: No, time is movement—not knowledge. It’s a fact, actuality.
1:20:34 Q: I know that it will take me two seconds to reach you.
1:20:48 K: That’s an actuality; that’s truth.
1:20:49 Q: I’m not quite sure. But to see you I don’t have to make a movement.
1:20:51 K: No, sir, may I go...
1:20:52 Q: I don’t know how to put it.
1:20:53 K: No, no, you will put it, sir. When it’s clear you can put it. When I move from here to there, involves distance, time.
1:21:09 Right? Keep to that. So time we say is movement.
1:21:19 When there is no movement, as distance, space, motion from here to there, when there is no movement at all there is no time.
1:21:42 Right? Now, the content of my consciousness is constantly moving.
1:21:56 Of course. Going from one pattern to another, from one belief to another, from one action to another, from one regret to another, from one suffering to another, from one formula to another, from one attachment to another.
1:22:19 So it is in constant movement. Otherwise you say, ‘I’m not living.’ Leave that for the moment.
1:22:33 So, can there be in that consciousness complete non-movement?
1:22:41 Not invented by thought saying there is no movement, but can that movement in consciousness stop?
1:22:50 Q: You answered your own question. You said that consciousness is always moving, so how can there be a non-movement of consciousness?
1:23:01 K: So that’s the whole point. Go into it. Please find out. So what happens to a mind that has been in constant movement, which is the content of consciousness and so on?
1:23:23 In that consciousness is there a moment or a space which is motionless?
1:23:31 Or is it all movement, therefore all time, all distance, space—all the rest of it?
1:23:47 Q: Well, in the centre of a whirlpool there is quiet.
1:23:54 I don’t think that’s a good analogy.
1:23:56 K: Then are you saying—I’m just asking—are you saying, time can never have an ending in that consciousness?
1:24:11 Obviously. And if there is no end to time we are prisoners in this consciousness.
1:24:23 Of course. We’ll go into this very deeply with Dr Bohm this afternoon at four.
1:24:42 It’s fun. All right, sir? (Pause) Can your mind be absolutely still?
1:25:00 Without inducing stillness, without taking a drug, without taking mantras—you follow?—all the tricks, which are all inventions of thought, can thought completely stop?
1:25:23 Because time we said is movement from here to there and as long as there is a movement in consciousness it will be a prisoner to time therefore it must suffer, and all the rest of it.
1:25:49 So we are asking, can that movement stop?
1:25:52 Q: That doesn’t mean that you’re not doing anything, does it? You can be coming down the street and...
1:26:02 K: No, of course. You see, you’re doing from the consciousness. Your content is doing. Right? Therefore the doing is divisive and therefore confusing. Right? You understand ‘divisive’? That means divided. You are a Christian, you are a communist, you are a belief, non-belief, you know, I don’t know—you follow?—that’s all movement and therefore in that consciousness there is division and therefore it brings conflict.
1:26:43 Now, when all... from that movement you act, therefore you’re creating more confusion.
1:26:53 That’s what the politicians are doing.
1:26:58 Q: Well what are we doing here then if not acting?
1:27:04 K: No, here we are not acting in the sense—wait a minute—in the sense physically moving. Right? We are acting in one direction, that is, action is the process of investigation into this whole business.
1:27:19 That’s action. And also there is non-action, which is the perception that says the mind must be... mind has to be silent, quiet, motionless.
1:27:38 And from that motionless state there is a tremendous action.
1:27:45 Q: Which if you don’t carry it out is going to...
1:27:50 K: Wait—not ‘which if you do’—it is carrying it out. You don’t say, ‘I must carry it out,’ which means again—you follow?
1:28:03 Do you get this or is it too abstract, all this?
1:28:10 You know, I was thinking the other day when we were talking about respect: what relationship has respect to discipline?
1:28:21 You understand what I mean?
1:28:29 In a community of this kind we’re all living together, working and so on in a community, in a small community which is really a community, which is, the world is a larger community, and so on—can we have discipline—I mean by discipline not obeying certain authority, pattern, conforming, which society accepts as discipline—can we have discipline which is not that, and yet have order?
1:29:12 Have you understood what I’m talking about?
1:29:14 Q: Sir, a discipline can also refer to a subject that one learns.
1:29:23 K: No, just a minute, sir. No, no, I understand all that. Look, I said order. If we are living together as we are, we must have order. That is, if you do something and I do something and he does something else and she does, we will create confusion. We must have order. Order comes when we all see the same thing, more or less.
1:29:55 Now, can there be order without being told by somebody, ‘You must be orderly’?
1:30:05 You understand what I’m saying?
1:30:12 I say to you—please listen—I say to you, ‘It is very necessary to be punctual for meals.’ I’m taking that as an example; I can take a much bigger issue; I won’t take a bigger issue; I’m taking a very small issue, that you must be punctual, you must make your bed.
1:30:37 I tell you that because that’s orderly. Now wait a minute. I say this to you and you listen to it, which is respect.
1:30:52 If you tell me something, I listen to you. You may tell me something which is idiotic and so though I listen I won’t accept it.
1:31:06 But if you and I accept that thing, say, we must be orderly in our room, will you listen to it?
1:31:19 And because you listen to it, you do it. You follow? It’s an action that has taken place, which is the act of learning which is itself discipline.
1:31:34 I wonder if you get it. So, a community of this kind lives on ‘actual moment’.
1:31:47 (Laughs) Do you understand this? No, no, it’s very difficult, this.
1:31:53 Q: I didn’t hear the last sentence.
1:31:56 Q: Listen.
1:31:57 K: This community, when we are living together like this, there are no rules, there is no authority, no compulsion, and we have to be orderly.
1:32:14 You tell me, ‘Keep your room tidy,’ which is part of order. If not, somebody else has to come down, make the room tidy, or the people with whom I share the room have to make it tidy.
1:32:31 So you tell me, ‘Keep your room tidy,’ and I listen to you.
1:32:41 Because you say, ‘Please listen.’ I have explained to you. You have explained to me why you should keep it, the room in order. That very listening is action. You no longer have to tell me I have to keep the room in order, it’s finished.
1:33:01 Q: But...
1:33:03 K: Wait, wait, wait, listen. So there is an action which is entirely taking place immediately.
1:33:17 You don’t have to repeat ever to me again, ‘Keep the room tidy.’ Q: But sir, I mean, it may be that I don’t really see why the room should be tidy.
1:33:27 K: No, that’s your job to show me. Your job is to show me.
1:33:32 Q: But I may say to you, ‘Look, animals live in an untidy way; why shouldn’t I live in an untidy way?
1:33:39 I’m an animal.’ K: We said, what relationship has respect to discipline?
1:33:51 Respect I show you by listening to you. Disrespect is not to listen to you, brush you off—I casually pay attention, not...
1:34:13 Respect implies not to brush you away, not to go back and ask, ‘What did you mean by it?’ I am paying complete attention to you because I respect you and you respect me, because we have got to live together.
1:34:33 We both see the necessary of order. But I don’t know what it means. So you explain to me. You show me. You show how if you are disorderly in your room, your mind is disorderly, your actions are disorderly, everything that you touch will become disorderly.
1:34:55 You explain that to me. And because I am paying attention, you don’t have to ever repeat again to me.
1:35:10 That is an action of total...—you follow? It is finished and I move to something else.
1:35:23 Q: Krishnaji, in a community like this, if something of that nature happens and the person goes on and on refusing to—you could say to behave themselves, what happens in the end is that they...
1:36:43 K: In the end either that person gets out...
1:36:59 Q: ...or he’s asked to leave. But then what happens—this is a view, this is an insight into what it would be like—what happens in the big world when that happens?
1:37:02 K: What happens? In the big world, nobody’s willing to listen.
1:37:05 Q: Yes, so they are either thrown into prison—that’s one thing that will be done with them—but...
1:37:10 K: In the big world, sir, nobody has any respect for anybody.
1:37:14 Q: Right.
1:37:15 Q: Excuse me, but doesn’t it actually happen to a certain extent here?
1:37:19 K: Maybe—that’s your misery.
1:37:20 Q: So, you said that if this person won’t tidy their room and so on then you carry on explaining to them and you try to get it across to them.
1:37:56 K: Look, what will you do with me if I don’t keep my room in order?
1:38:17 If I keep my room in disorder, what will you do with me? Showing to me... You have shown me what order means, order in the mind—you follow?—all that involved in action, in behaviour, in everything.
1:38:23 Q: Yes, we are talking as if I assume that I don’t want your room to be in disorder. We are talking on the assumption I don’t want your room to be in disorder, first of all.
1:38:30 K: No, I’m not assuming. It is a fact: I keep my room in disorder.
1:38:35 Q: Yes, but then I come along. If I don’t mind that your room’s in disorder...
1:38:48 K: Ah, no, you do mind.
1:38:58 Q: I don’t think so.
1:39:06 K: Because you are responsible. Because you say to me, ‘Look, if you don’t, it’s an indication of your disorderly behaviour, disorderly mind, disorderly way of living.’ Q: It basically means that the person who’s keeping his room in disorder, he or she does not really think that his actions have influence on other people, that they think they are separate entities, therefore why do you bother with their sloppiness?
1:39:26 K: Yes, Bruce says to me, ‘What will you do with me?’ You have pointed out ten times to me and I keep my room in disorder. What will you do with me?
1:39:31 Q: To me it’s most relevant to point out that this person’s action is not separate, that it’s part of the whole community.
1:39:34 K: My lady, you have pointed out ten times to me.
1:39:38 Q: Yes, because what does happen in the end in a community is that that person is no longer...
1:39:42 K: ...part of the community.
1:39:43 Q: There comes a point where people don’t want to bother anymore.
1:39:44 K: I want to bother.
1:39:45 Q: Yes, okay.
1:39:46 K: I am responsible.
1:39:47 Q: Right. But...
1:39:49 K: And therefore I take a great deal of trouble. And if you say, ‘I am going to keep my room in disorder. I don’t care. It’s your prejudice, it’s your this and your that,’ I say, ‘Look, my friend, I’ve talked to you ten times, I’ve explained to you a hundred times—please, the door.’ Q: Exactly, but that person goes out into the world.
1:39:55 K: He faces the mess of the world because he won’t learn.
1:39:56 Q: But then...
1:39:57 K: What am I to do, hit him on the head?
1:39:58 Q: No.
1:39:59 K: Answer me. What?
1:40:01 Q: If it was the right thing to do, to hit him on the head, then I’d hit him on the head.
1:40:03 K: Hit him on the head, he’ll hit you back. He’ll say, ‘You are authoritarian, you are this and that,’ you know. So what are you to do with people who won’t listen?
1:40:06 Q: I don’t know, but personally I don’t feel like... you know, there comes a point in which you say, ‘When do I give up?’ K: I never give up.
1:40:09 Q: Exactly. I mean, you’ve been going for, what, how many years now?
1:40:11 K: Why should I give up? I see the mess in the world, why should I give it up? I want to...
1:40:14 Q: You give up on your own personal interest.
1:40:15 K: No. Because I have order in me I want to create order out there.
1:40:17 Q: Yes. But if one doesn’t have order in oneself and one’s got one’s own little interests, then there comes a point in which one’s own interests conflict, carrying on with adversity.
1:40:20 K: Then carry on. Like the rest of the world, like the rest of mediocrity, carry on.
1:40:22 Q: Right. So everybody’s interested up to a certain point. I’m not saying everybody, I’m saying...
1:40:25 K: No, there is no interest ‘up to a certain point’; interest is interest all the time. You can’t say, ‘Well, I’ll stop, I’ve lost interest.’ Q: Right. So if it stops at a certain point then it’s not genuine.
1:40:35 K: Interest, sir, is something... Say, for instance, I am a doctor or trying to become a doctor. I’m investigating or exploring in the cadaver, in the body. I can’t in the middle of it say, ‘I’m sorry, I’ve lost interest.’ Q: But that’s what happens.
1:40:51 K: Then I’m not going to be a good doctor.
1:40:54 Q: Exactly.
1:40:55 K: It doesn’t matter—all right, don’t be a good doctor. All right. But I want to be a good doctor therefore I must go into it.
1:41:05 Q: Krishnaji...
1:41:06 K: Haven’t you had enough this morning?
1:41:11 Q: No.
1:41:18 K: What were you going to say?
1:41:37 Q: I’m sorry. (Pause) K: Sir, what is the purpose of education? What’s the point of being educated? If you’re going to be like the rest of the world, what’s the point of being educated? To become a clerk or a governor or executive, this or that, is that all?
1:41:54 What’s the point of it all?
1:42:01 To become a good housewife? Oh Lord, just think of that.
1:42:03 Q: You’re asking what’s the point of living really.
1:42:10 K: I am asking you, what’s the point of all this?
1:42:18 So if you, being young, are not educated to discover the meaning of life—you follow?—now, not when you go to college; you will never learn it there—now, if you’re not beginning to learn what is the whole circus about... and to learn what the circus is about is part of education, perhaps the whole of education.
1:42:52 Basta. Isn’t it enough for this morning? Right.