Krishnamurti Subtitles

A mechanical way of living leads to disorder

Brockwood Park - 18 May 1976

The Transformation of Man 2



0:13 K: Do we go on where
we left off yesterday?
  
0:17 Or would you like to
start something new?
  
0:22 B: I thought there was a point
that wasn't entirely clear...
  
0:26 when discussing yesterday.
 
0:29 Which is that we
rather accepted that...
  
0:35 security, psychological security
was wrong, was illusion...
  
0:39 but in general I don't
think we made it...
  
0:42 very clear why
it is a delusion.
  
0:45 Most people feel that...
 
0:47 psychological security
is a real thing...
  
0:49 and quite necessary
and when it's disturbed...
  
0:51 or when a person
is frightened, or...
  
0:53 sorrowful, or even
so disturbed that...
  
0:56 he might be psychologically
disturbed and require treatment...
  
1:00 he feels that
psychological security...
  
1:02 is necessary before
he can even begin...
  
1:05 to do anything.
K: Yes, right.
  
1:06 B: And I think that it isn't at
all clear why one should say...
  
1:10 that it's really...
 
1:12 not as important
as physical security.
  
1:16 K: Yes. No, I think we have
made it fairly clear, didn't we?
  
1:19 but let's go into it.
B: Yes.
  
1:22 K: Is there really psychological
security at all?
  
1:28 B: I don't think we discussed
that fully last time.
  
1:30 K: Of course. Nobody accepts that.
But we are enquiring into it...
  
1:35 going into the problem of it.
 
1:39 S: But we said something even
deeper I think yesterday.
  
1:42 And that is that - at least as I
was summarising for myself...
  
1:46 and that is that we felt...
 
1:49 - correct me if you
think I'm wrong here...
  
1:50 that conditioning...
 
1:55 conditioning sets the stage...
 
1:59 for the importance of
psychological security...
  
2:02 and that in turn
creates insecurity.
  
2:07 And it is the conditioning
that creates...
  
2:09 the psychological
security as a focus?
  
2:12 Would you agree with that?
 
2:13 K: I think that we two mean
something different.
  
2:16 S: What do you mean?
 
2:21 K: First of all, sir...
 
2:23 we take it for granted that
there is psychological security.
  
2:30 S: OK. Well, we think
that we can get it.
  
2:34 K: We feel that there is.
S: Right. That's right.
  
2:39 B: Yes, I think that if you told
somebody who was feeling...
  
2:41 very disturbed
mentally that...
  
2:43 there is no psychological
security...
  
2:44 he would just feel worse.
K: Collapse. Of course.
  
2:49 S: Right.
 
2:50 K: We are talking of fairly
sane, rational people.
  
2:55 S: OK.
 
2:56 K: We are questioning
whether there is...
  
2:59 any psychological
security at all...
  
3:02 permanency, stability...
 
3:06 a sense of well-founded,
deep-rooted...
  
3:11 existence psychologically.
 
3:14 S: Maybe if we could say more...
 
3:17 What would be
psychological security?
  
3:19 K: After all, I believe.
I believe in something.
  
3:24 It may be the most
foolish belief...
  
3:27 S: Right.
 
3:29 K: ...a neurotic belief.
I believe in it.
  
3:32 S: Right.
 
3:34 K: And that gives
you a tremendous...
  
3:36 sense of existence, living,
vitality, and stability.
  
3:42 B: I think you could think of
two examples, one is that...
  
3:44 if I could really
believe that...
  
3:46 after dying I would
go to heaven...
  
3:47 and be quite sure of it...
 
3:49 then I could be very
secure inwardly...
  
3:51 no matter what happens.
S: That would make you feel good.
  
3:53 B: I'd say, I don't really have
to worry, because it's all...
  
3:55 a temporary trouble and then
I am pretty sure that in time...
  
3:58 it is all going to be
very good. Do you see?
  
4:00 K: That's the whole Asiatic
attitude, more or less.
  
4:03 B: Or if I think I am a
communist then I say...
  
4:05 in time communism is going
to solve everything and...
  
4:08 we are going through
a lot of troubles now...
  
4:10 but, it's all going to
be worthwhile and...
  
4:11 it will work out, and in
the end it will be all right.
  
4:14 S: Right.
B: If I could be sure of that...
  
4:16 then I would say I feel
very secure inside...
  
4:19 even if conditions are hard.
 
4:22 S: OK. All right.
K: So we are questioning...
  
4:26 though one has
these strong beliefs...
  
4:30 which gives them
a sense of security...
  
4:33 permanency, whether there
is such in reality, actuality...
  
4:40 S: It's not possible.
 
4:42 The question is, is it possible?
K: Is it possible?
  
4:47 K: I may believe in god and that
gives me a tremendous sense of...
  
4:55 impermanency of this world...
 
4:57 but at least there is
permanency somewhere else.
  
5:00 S: Yes. But I want to ask David
something. Do you think that...
  
5:06 for instance, take
a scientist, a guy...
  
5:08 who is going to his
laboratory everyday...
  
5:10 or take a doctor,
he is getting security.
  
5:15 He takes security from...
 
5:18 the very 'routinization'
of his life.
  
5:20 K: From his knowledge.
 
5:21 S: Yes, from his knowledge.
If he keeps doing this, he feels…
  
5:25 In the scientist, where
does he get security?
  
5:28 B: He makes believe he is learning
the permanent laws of nature...
  
5:32 and really getting something
that means something.
  
5:35 Also getting a position...
 
5:37 in society and being sure,
being well known...
  
5:41 and respected and
financially secure.
  
5:45 S: He believes that these
things will give him the thing.
  
5:49 The mother believes that the
child will give her security.
  
5:53 K: Don't you psychologically
have security?
  
5:57 S: Yes, OK. Right.
That's a good point.
  
6:00 I get a security out
of my knowledge...
  
6:04 out of my routine,
out of my patients...
  
6:07 out of seeing my patients,
out of my position.
  
6:09 B: But there is conflict in that...
 
6:11 because if I think it
over a little bit...
  
6:13 I doubt it, I question it.
 
6:15 I say, it doesn't
look all that secure...
  
6:17 anything may happen. There
may be a war, there may be...
  
6:20 a depression,
there may be a flood.
  
6:23 K: There may be sane people all of
a sudden in the world! (Laughter)
  
6:27 S: Do you think there is a chance?
 
6:32 B: So I say there is conflict...
 
6:34 and confusion in my security
because I am not sure about it.
  
6:39 S: You are not sure about it.
 
6:40 B: But if I had an absolute
belief in god and heaven...
  
6:45 K: This is so obvious.
 
6:47 S: It's obvious.
I agree with you...
  
6:48 but I think it has to be...
 
6:50 in other words, it has
to be really felt through.
  
6:53 K: Sir, you, Dr. Shainberg,
you are the victim.
  
6:58 S: I'll be the victim.
 
6:59 K: For the moment. Don't
you have strong belief?
  
7:03 S: Right. Well, I wouldn't say...
 
7:05 K: Don't you have a sense of...
 
7:07 permanency somewhere
inside you?
  
7:10 S: I think I do.
K: Psychologically?
  
7:12 S: Yes, I do. I have a sense of
permanency about my intention.
  
7:17 K: Intention, your knowledge.
S: My work. My knowledge...
  
7:22 K: ...status.
 
7:23 S: ...my status, the continuity of my
interest. You know what I mean?
  
7:30 K: Yes.
 
7:33 S: There is a sense
of security...
  
7:35 in the feeling that
I can help someone.
  
7:36 K: Yes.
S: And I can do my work. OK?
  
7:40 K: That gives you security,
psychological security.
  
7:42 S: There is something
about it that is secure.
  
7:45 What am I saying when
I say 'security'?
  
7:47 I am saying that
I won't be lonely.
  
7:50 K: No, no. Feeling secure...
 
7:53 that you have something
that is imperishable.
  
7:56 S: Which means...
- No, I don't feel it that way.
  
7:59 I feel it more
in the sense of...
  
8:01 what is going
to happen in time...
  
8:04 am I going to have
to depend on...
  
8:07 what is my time
going to be, am I going...
  
8:10 to be lonely, is it
going to be empty?
  
8:12 K: No, sir.
S: Isn't that security?
  
8:14 K: As Dr. Bohm pointed out...
 
8:17 if one has a strong
belief in reincarnation...
  
8:21 as the whole
Asiatic world has...
  
8:24 then it doesn't
matter what happens...
  
8:26 in the next life you
have a better chance.
  
8:29 You might be miserable this life
but next life you will be happier.
  
8:36 That gives you
a great sense of...
  
8:39 'this is unimportant,
but that is important'.
  
8:41 S: Right.
 
8:43 K: And that gives me a
sense of great comfort...
  
8:50 as though, 'Well, this is
a transient world anyhow...
  
8:55 and eventually I'll get there,
to something permanent'.
  
8:58 This is human...
 
9:00 S: This is in the Asiatic world...
 
9:02 but I think in the western
world you don't have that.
  
9:04 K: Oh, yes you have it.
S: With a different focus.
  
9:06 K: Of course.
 
9:08 B: It's different but you've always
had the search for security.
  
9:10 S: Right, right. But what
do you think security is?
  
9:14 you became a scientist,
you went to the laboratory...
  
9:18 you picked up the books
all the time. Right?
  
9:21 You never went to
the laboratory...
  
9:23 but you have had
your own laboratory.
  
9:25 What the hell do
you call security?
  
9:26 K: Security?
 
9:28 S: Yes, but what does
he call his security?
  
9:31 Knowledge?
 
9:33 K: Having something...
 
9:35 to which you can cling to
and which is not perishable.
  
9:39 It may perish eventually
but at the time...
  
9:42 for the time being it
is there to hold on to.
  
9:46 B: You can feel
that it's permanent.
  
9:48 In the past, people used
to accumulate gold...
  
9:51 because gold is the symbol of
the imperishable, they could feel.
  
9:54 S: We still have people
who accumulate gold...
  
9:56 we have business men,
they have got money.
  
9:58 B: You feel it's really there.
K: There.
  
10:01 B: It will never corrode,
it will never vanish...
  
10:05 and you can count on it.
 
10:08 S: So it's something
that I can count on.
  
10:11 K: Count on, hold on to,
cling to, be attached to.
  
10:15 S: Believe in, the 'me'.
K: Exactly.
  
10:17 I know that I am a doctor.
I can depend on that.
  
10:24 K: Knowledge, experience.
S: Experience.
  
10:28 K: And on the other
hand, tradition.
  
10:30 S: Tradition. I know
that if I do this...
  
10:33 with a patient that I
will get this result.
  
10:35 I might not get any good
results but I'll get this result.
  
10:38 K: So I think that
is fairly clear.
  
10:41 B: Yes, it's clear enough
that we have that...
  
10:43 that it's part
of our society.
  
10:45 K: Part of our conditioning.
B: We want...
  
10:48 something secure and
permanent. At least we think so.
  
10:55 S: I think that Krishnaji's point
about the Eastern world...
  
10:59 there is, I think, a feeling in
the West of wanting immortality.
  
11:03 K: That's the same.
S: Same thing.
  
11:06 B: Wouldn't you say
that in so far as...
  
11:08 thought can project
time that it wants...
  
11:10 to be able to project
everything...
  
11:12 all right in the future
as far as possible.
  
11:14 S: That's what I meant
when I said loneliness:
  
11:16 if I don't have to
have my loneliness...
  
11:18 B: In other words the anticipation
of what is coming...
  
11:20 is already the present feeling.
If you can anticipate...
  
11:24 that something bad may
come, you already feel bad.
  
11:28 K: That's right.
 
11:29 B: Therefore you would
like to get rid of that.
  
11:31 S: So you anticipate
that it won't happen.
  
11:33 B: That it will all be good.
S: Right.
  
11:35 B: I would say that security
would be the anticipation...
  
11:38 that everything will
be good in the future.
  
11:39 K: Good. Everything
will be all right.
  
11:41 S: It will continue.
B: It will become better.
  
11:43 If it is not so good now it
will become better with certainty.
  
11:46 S: So then security is becoming?
 
11:50 K: Yes, becoming, perfecting...
 
11:54 S: I was thinking what you
were saying the other day...
  
11:56 about the Brahmin.
 
11:58 Anybody can become a Brahmin,
then that gives him security.
  
12:03 K: That is, a projected belief...
 
12:08 a projected idea, a
comforting satisfying concept.
  
12:16 S: Right. I see patients all the
time. Their projected belief is...
  
12:20 'I will become
- I will find somebody...
  
12:24 to love me'. I see
patients who say...
  
12:27 'I will become the
chief of the department...
  
12:29 I will become the most famous
doctor one day, I will become...'
  
12:33 and his whole life
goes like that.
  
12:37 Because it is also
all focused on being...
  
12:39 the best tennis player, the best...
K: Of course, of course.
  
12:42 B: It seems it's all focused on
anticipating that life is going...
  
12:46 to be good, would you say that?
K: Yes, life is going to be good.
  
12:50 B: It seems to me, you wouldn't
raise the question...
  
12:52 unless you had a lot of experience
that life is not so good.
  
12:56 It's a reaction to having
had so much experience...
  
13:01 of disappointment, of suffering.
 
13:04 K: Would you say that we are not...
 
13:09 conscious of the whole
movement of thought?
  
13:13 B: No, I mean, I think that
most people would say...
  
13:16 that is only very
natural, I have had...
  
13:18 a lot of experience
of suffering...
  
13:21 and disappointment and danger,
and that is unpleasant and...
  
13:25 I would like to be
able to anticipate...
  
13:27 that everything
is going to be good.
  
13:29 K: Yes.
 
13:32 B: At first sight it would seem
that that is really quite natural.
  
13:35 But you are saying
it is not now...
  
13:37 there is something
deeply wrong with it.
  
13:39 K: We are saying there is no such
thing as psychological security.
  
13:44 We have defined what
we mean by security.
  
13:47 S: Yes.
 
13:47 K: We don't have to
beat it over and over.
  
13:49 S: No, I think we have got that.
B: Yes, but is it clear now...
  
13:52 that, you see, these hopes
are really vain hopes...
  
13:54 that should be obvious,
shouldn't it?
  
13:56 S: That is a good question.
You mean is it...
  
13:59 Krishnaji, he is raising...
 
14:02 a good question, it is this
whole business of you saying...
  
14:04 is it meaningful to look for
security. Is there such a thing?
  
14:09 K: Sir, there is death at
the end of everything.
  
14:12 B: Yes.
 
14:15 K: You want to be secure...
 
14:16 for the next ten years,
that is all, or fifty years.
  
14:20 Afterwards it doesn't matter.
 
14:23 Or if it does matter then
you believe in something.
  
14:26 That there is god...
 
14:27 you will sit next to
god on his right hand...
  
14:29 or whatever it is you believe.
 
14:33 So I am trying to find out...
 
14:38 not only that there is no
permanency psychologically...
  
14:42 which means no tomorrow
psychologically.
  
14:45 B: That hasn't yet come out.
K: Of course, of course.
  
14:49 B: We can say empirically...
 
14:51 we know these hopes
for security are false...
  
14:54 because first of all you say
there is death, secondly...
  
14:56 you can't count on anything,
materially everything changes.
  
15:00 K: Everything is in flux.
 
15:02 B: Mentally everything
in your head...
  
15:04 is changing all the time. You
can't count on your feelings...
  
15:07 you can't count on...
 
15:08 enjoying a certain
thing that you enjoy now...
  
15:11 you can't count on being healthy,
you can't count on money.
  
15:16 K: And you can't rely on your
wife, you can rely on nothing.
  
15:20 S: Right.
B: So that is a fact.
  
15:22 But I am saying that you are
suggesting something deeper.
  
15:24 K: Yes.
 
15:26 B: We don't base ourselves
only on that observation.
  
15:28 K: No, that is very superficial.
 
15:31 S: Yes, I am with you there.
 
15:36 K: So if there is no real
security, basic, deep...
  
15:42 then is there a tomorrow,
psychologically?
  
15:51 And then you take
away all hope.
  
15:55 If there is no tomorrow
you take away all hope.
  
16:00 B: What you mean by tomorrow,
is the tomorrow...
  
16:02 in which things will
get better?
  
16:05 K: Better, greater success,
greater understanding, greater...
  
16:12 B: More love.
 
16:13 K: ...more love, you know,
the whole business.
  
16:18 S: That is a little quick,
that jump.
  
16:23 I think that there is
a jump there...
  
16:27 because as I hear you, I hear
you saying there is no security.
  
16:33 K: But it is so.
S: It is so.
  
16:35 But for me to say,
to really say...
  
16:39 'Look, I know there
is no security'.
  
16:43 K: Why don't you say that?
 
16:45 S: That is what I am getting at.
Why don't I say that?
  
16:48 B: Well, isn't it first
of all a fact that...
  
16:52 just an observed
fact that there isn't...
  
16:54 anything you can count
on psychologically?
  
16:57 S: Right. But you see, I think
there is an action there.
  
17:00 Krishnaji is saying
'why don't you?'.
  
17:03 Why don't you say there is
no security? Why don't I?
  
17:12 K: Can I? May I?
 
17:18 Do you rationalise what we
are saying about security?
  
17:24 Say 'yes', as an idea.
Or actually so?
  
17:32 S: I actually say it is so,
but then I say...
  
17:35 I'll keep doing it,
I'll keep doing it.
  
17:37 K: No, no.
We are asking...
  
17:42 when you hear there
is no security...
  
17:44 is it an abstract idea?
 
17:48 Or an actual fact,
like that table...
  
17:51 like your hand there,
or those flowers?
  
17:57 S: I think it mostly becomes an idea.
K: That's just it.
  
18:00 B: Why should it become an idea?
K: That's it. Why?
  
18:03 S: That I think is the question,
why does it become an idea?
  
18:08 K: Is it part of your training?
 
18:11 S: Yes. Part of my conditioning.
 
18:13 K: Part of a real objection
to see things as they are.
  
18:19 S: That's right. Because it moves.
It feels like it moves there.
  
18:25 Do you feel that?
 
18:27 B: It seems that if you see
that there is no security...
  
18:32 then the self,
I mean, it seems...
  
18:36 Fist of all, let us
try to put it that...
  
18:39 there is something
which seems to be there...
  
18:41 which is trying to protect itself,
namely let us say that...
  
18:44 it seems to be a fact
that the self is there.
  
18:47 Do you see what I am driving at?
 
18:49 K: Of course.
 
18:50 B: And if the self is there
it requires security...
  
18:53 and therefore this
creates a resistance...
  
18:55 to accepting that as a fact
and puts it as an idea only.
  
19:00 If you see what I mean.
It seems that...
  
19:04 the factuality of
the self being there...
  
19:08 has not been denied.
The apparent factuality.
  
19:13 S: Right. But why hasn't it?
 
19:17 Why do you think it hasn't been?
What happens?
  
19:20 K: Is it that you refuse
to see things as they are?
  
19:25 Is it that one refuses to see...
 
19:28 that one is stupid?
Not you, I mean, one is stupid.
  
19:34 To acknowledge that one is
stupid is already - you follow?
  
19:39 S: Yes, yes. It's like,
you say to me...
  
19:41 'You refuse to acknowledge...
 
19:43 that you are stupid'
- let us say it is me...
  
19:46 - that means then
than I have got...
  
19:50 to do something, it feels like.
K: No.
  
19:52 S: Something happens to me.
 
19:54 K: Not yet. Action comes
through perception...
  
19:59 not through ideation.
 
20:03 S: I'm glad you are
getting into this.
  
20:08 B: Doesn't it seem that as long
as there is the sense of self...
  
20:11 the self must say that it is
perfect, eternal. Do you see?
  
20:15 K: Of course, of course.
 
20:18 S: What do you think it is?
What makes it so hard to say...
  
20:23 Is this what you mean...
 
20:23 when you talk about the
destruction in creation?
  
20:26 K: Yes.
 
20:27 S: In other words, is
there something here...
  
20:29 about the destruction
that I am not.
  
20:31 K: You must destroy that.
 
20:33 S: I must destroy that. Now what
makes it hard for me to destroy?
  
20:38 I mean, destroy this need for
security, why can't I do it?
  
20:42 K: No, no. It is not
how you can do it.
  
20:44 You see, you are
already entering...
  
20:46 into the realm of action.
 
20:48 S: That I think is
the crucial point.
  
20:50 K: But I am not.
I say first see it.
  
20:56 And from that perception,
action is inevitable.
  
21:01 S: Yes. It's crucial.
 
21:05 All right, now. To see insecurity.
Do you see insecurity?
  
21:12 Do you actually see it?
 
21:16 K: What?
 
21:17 S: Insecurity.
K: Ah, no. Do you actually see...
  
21:24 S: ...there is no security.
 
21:26 K: No, that you are
clinging to something...
  
21:31 belief and all
the rest of it...
  
21:33 which gives you security.
S: OK.
  
21:39 K: I cling to this house.
 
21:44 I am safe.
 
21:47 It gives me a sense of
'my house, my father'...
  
21:51 it gives me pride, it gives
me a sense of possession...
  
21:56 it gives me a
sense of physical...
  
21:58 and therefore
psychological security.
  
22:00 S: Right, and a place to go.
 
22:02 K: A place to go. But I may
walk out and be killed...
  
22:09 and I have lost everything.
 
22:13 There might be an earthquake
and everything is gone.
  
22:19 Do you actually see it?
 
22:26 S: I actually...
 
22:32 K: Sir, go to a poor man.
He says, of course...
  
22:37 I have no security,
but he wants it.
  
22:42 He says, 'Well, give me a good
job, beer, and constant work...
  
22:50 and a house, and a good wife
and children; that's my security'.
  
22:54 S: Right.
 
22:56 K: When there is a
strike, he feels lost.
  
23:00 But he has got the
Union behind him.
  
23:02 S: Right. But he thinks
he is secure.
  
23:05 K: Secure. And that
movement of security...
  
23:11 enters into the
psychological field.
  
23:14 My wife, I believe in god,
I don't believe in god.
  
23:17 If I am a good communist...
 
23:19 I will have a good - you follow?
The whole thing.
  
23:23 Do you see it?
 
23:32 You see, the seeing, or
the perception of that...
  
23:37 is total action with
regard to security.
  
23:41 S: I can see that that
is the total action.
  
23:44 K: No, that's an idea still.
 
23:46 S: Yes, you're right.
I begin to see that...
  
23:55 this belief,
this whole structure...
  
24:02 begins to be the whole way that
I see everything in the world.
  
24:09 I begin to see her, the wife,
or I begin to see these people...
  
24:15 they fit into that structure.
 
24:18 K: You see them, your wife, through
the image you have about them.
  
24:24 S: Right. And to the function
they are serving.
  
24:26 B: Their relation to me, yes.
K: Yes.
  
24:29 S: That's right. That's
the function they serve.
  
24:33 K: The picture, the image,
the conclusion is the security.
  
24:37 S: That's right.
 
24:39 B: Yes, but you see, why does
it present itself as so real?
  
24:42 You see, there is a...
I see that as a thought...
  
24:48 a process of thought which
is driving on, continually.
  
24:52 K: Are you asking...
 
24:54 Why has this image,
this conclusion, this...
  
24:57 all the rest of it, become
so fantastically real?
  
25:01 B: Yes. It seems to be
standing there real...
  
25:03 and everything
is referred to it.
  
25:06 K: More real than the
marbles, than the hills.
  
25:09 B: Than anything, yes.
S: More real than anything.
  
25:11 K: Why?
 
25:21 S: I think it is hard to say why...
 
25:26 except that it seems to...
because it would give me security.
  
25:30 K: No, no. We have gone
much further than that.
  
25:32 B: Because, suppose abstractly
and as an idea...
  
25:36 we can see the whole
thing as no security at all...
  
25:39 I mean, just looking at it
rationally and abstractly.
  
25:42 S: That is putting the
cart before the horse.
  
25:44 B: No, I am just saying that
if it were some simple matter...
  
25:48 giving that much proof, you
would have already accepted it.
  
25:52 S: Right.
 
25:54 B: But when it comes to this,
no proof seems to work.
  
25:57 S: Right. Nothing seems to work.
 
25:59 B: Because it seems..
You say all that...
  
26:01 but here I am presented
with the solid reality...
  
26:04 of myself and my security,
which seems to deny...
  
26:07 there is a sort of reaction
which seems to say:
  
26:09 well, that may
be plausible...
  
26:10 but really, it's only words.
The real thing is me. Do you see?
  
26:15 S: But there is more than that.
Why it has such potency?
  
26:21 I mean why it seems to
take on such importance.
  
26:24 B: Well, may be. But I am saying it
seems that the real thing is me...
  
26:30 which is all important.
 
26:34 S: There's no question about it.
Me, me, me is important.
  
26:37 K: Which is an idea.
 
26:39 B: But it doesn't... we can
say abstractly it is an idea.
  
26:42 The question is, how do
you break into this process?
  
26:46 K: No. I think we
can break into it...
  
26:48 or break through it,
or get beyond it...
  
26:55 only through perception.
 
26:59 B: Yes.
 
27:01 Because otherwise every thought
is involved in that therefore...
  
27:05 S: Because I am going
to get through it...
  
27:07 because it will make
me feel better. Right.
  
27:09 B: The trouble is that all that
we have been talking about...
  
27:12 is in the form of ideas.
They may be correct ideas...
  
27:14 but they won't break into this.
S: Right.
  
27:17 B: Because this dominates
the whole of thought.
  
27:19 S: That's right. You could
even ask why are we here.
  
27:22 We are here because...
 
27:23 K: No sir. Look, if I feel...
 
27:28 my security lies
in some image I have...
  
27:32 a picture, a symbol,
a conclusion...
  
27:35 an ideal and so on, I would...
 
27:38 put it not as an abstraction
but bring it down.
  
27:45 You see, it is so.
 
27:48 I believe in something.
 
27:54 Actually. Now I say,
why do I believe.
  
27:58 B: Well, have you
actually done that?
  
28:00 K: No, I haven't because I have
no beliefs. I have no picture...
  
28:03 I don't go in for
all those kind of games.
  
28:07 I said 'if'.
S: If, right.
  
28:10 K: Then I would bring the abstracted
thing into a perceptive reality.
  
28:24 S: To see my belief, is that it?
K: See it.
  
28:27 S: To see my belief. Right.
 
28:31 To see that 'me' in operation.
 
28:36 K: Yes, if you like
to put it that way.
  
28:39 Sir, wait a minute.
Take a simple thing...
  
28:42 Have you a conclusion
about something?
  
28:44 Conclusion, a concept?
 
28:47 S: Yes.
K: Eh?
  
28:48 S: Yes, I think I do.
K: Now, wait a minute.
  
28:50 How is that brought about?
S: Well, through...
  
28:55 K: Take a simple thing, not
complicated, take a simple thing.
  
29:00 A concept that I am an Englishman.
 
29:05 B: The trouble is
that we probably...
  
29:06 don't feel attached
to those concepts.
  
29:09 K: All right.
 
29:12 S: Let's take one
that is real for me:
  
29:15 take the one about
me being a doctor.
  
29:19 K: A concept.
 
29:19 S: That's a concept. That's a
conclusion based on training...
  
29:26 based on experience, based
on the enjoyment of the work.
  
29:32 K: Which means what? A doctor
means, the conclusion means...
  
29:36 he is capable of
certain activities.
  
29:39 S: Right, OK. Let's
take it, concretely.
  
29:41 K: Concretely. Work at it.
 
29:43 S: So now I have got the fact
that there is a concrete fact...
  
29:45 that I've had this training...
 
29:47 I get this pleasure
from the work...
  
29:49 I get a kind of feed back...
 
29:51 I've got a whole community
of feed in.
  
29:53 Books I've written,
papers, positions.
  
29:56 K: Move, move.
 
29:57 S: All right. All that.
Now, that is my belief.
  
30:01 That belief that I am a doctor is
based on all that, that concept.
  
30:07 OK. Now, I continually
act to continue that.
  
30:11 K: Yes, sir, that is understood.
S: OK.
  
30:13 K: Therefore you have a conclusion.
 
30:16 You have a concept
that you are a doctor.
  
30:18 S: Right.
 
30:19 K: Because it's based on knowledge,
experience, everyday activity.
  
30:23 S: Right, right.
K: Pleasure and all the rest of it.
  
30:25 S: Right.
K: So what is real in that?
  
30:29 What is true in that? Real?
S: What do you mean?
  
30:34 K: Actual, actual.
 
30:37 S: Well, that is a good
question. What is actual?
  
30:40 K: No, wait, it's so simple. What
is actual in that? Your training.
  
30:43 S: Right.
 
30:45 K: Your knowledge.
 
30:47 Your daily operation.
 
30:49 That's all. The rest
is a conclusion.
  
30:53 B: But what is the rest?
 
30:55 K: The rest: I am much better
than somebody else.
  
31:00 B: Or this thing is going to keep
me occupied in a good way.
  
31:05 K: I will never be lonely.
S: Right. I know what's going...
  
31:09 to happen to 'X' because
I have this knowledge.
  
31:11 K: Yes. So?
 
31:13 B: Well, that is part of it.
K: Of course, much more.
  
31:16 S: Yes, go ahead. I want
to hear what you...
  
31:19 B: But isn't there also a certain
fear that if I don't have this...
  
31:24 then things will be pretty bad.
 
31:28 S: Right. OK.
B: And that fear seems to spur on...
  
31:33 K: Of course. And if the
patients don't turn up?
  
31:37 B: Then I have no money.
K: Fear.
  
31:39 S: Then no activity.
K: So loneliness. Back.
  
31:43 S: Back again. Right.
K: So, be occupied.
  
31:47 S: Be occupied doing this,
completing this concept. OK?
  
31:52 K: Be occupied.
S: Right.
  
31:54 It's very important!
 
31:57 Do you realise how important
that is to people, to all...
  
31:59 to all people, to be occupied?
K: Of course.
  
32:04 S: Do you get the meat of that?
K: Of course.
  
32:07 S: How important it is to
people to be occupied.
  
32:11 I can see them
running around.
  
32:13 K: A housewife is occupied.
B: Exactly.
  
32:18 K: Remove that occupation,
she says, please...
  
32:21 B: ...what shall I do?
 
32:22 S: We have that as a
fact. Since we put...
  
32:24 electrical equipment
into the houses...
  
32:26 the women are going crazy...
 
32:27 they have got nothing
to do with their time.
  
32:30 K: But, no. The result of this,
neglect of their children.
  
32:34 Don't talk to me about it!
 
32:36 S: (laughs) Right.
OK. Let's go on.
  
32:39 Now we have got
this fact, occupied.
  
32:41 K: Occupied. Now...
 
32:45 Is this occupation an
abstraction, or actuality?
  
32:51 S: This is an actuality.
K: Which?
  
32:53 S: Actuality. I'm actually occupied.
K: No.
  
33:02 B: What is it?
 
33:08 K: You're actually occupied.
 
33:10 S: Yes.
K: Daily.
  
33:11 S: Daily.
 
33:15 B: What do you really mean
by occupied? Do you see...
  
33:18 S: What do you mean?
 
33:20 B: I can say I am actually doing
all the operations. That is clear.
  
33:23 I am seeing patients
as the doctor.
  
33:25 S: You are going to do your thing.
 
33:27 B: I am doing my thing, getting
my reward and so on.
  
33:31 'Occupied' it seems to me...
 
33:32 has a psychological meaning,
further than that...
  
33:35 that my mind is in that thing
in a relatively harmonious way.
  
33:41 There was something I saw
on television once...
  
33:43 of a woman who was
highly disturbed...
  
33:45 and it showed on
the encephalograph...
  
33:47 when she was occupied
doing arithmetic sums...
  
33:50 the encephalograph
went beautifully smooth.
  
33:52 She stopped doing the sums
and it went all over the place.
  
33:57 Therefore, she had to keep
on doing something...
  
34:00 to keep the brain
working right.
  
34:03 K: Which means what?
 
34:05 S: Go ahead.
B: What does it mean?
  
34:08 K: A mechanical process.
S: That's right.
  
34:13 B: It seems that the
brain starts jumping...
  
34:15 all over the place
unless it has this thing.
  
34:17 K: A constant...
B: ...content.
  
34:22 K: So you have reduced
yourself to a machine.
  
34:26 S: Don't say it! (Laughter)
 
34:31 No, it's not fair.
But it is true.
  
34:34 I feel there is a mechanical...
K: Responses.
  
34:38 S: Oh yes, commitment.
K: Of course.
  
34:41 B: But why does the brain...
 
34:43 begin to go so wild
when it's not occupied?
  
34:45 S: That's right.
 
34:48 B: The brain begins to jump around
wildly when it's not occupied.
  
34:52 That seems to be a
common experience.
  
34:53 K: Because in occupation
there is security.
  
34:56 B: There is order.
K: Order.
  
34:58 S: In occupation there is a
kind of mechanical order.
  
34:59 K: Mechanical order.
 
35:01 B: So we feel our
security really...
  
35:02 means we want order.
Is that right?
  
35:04 K: That's it!
B: We want order inside the brain.
  
35:08 We want to be able to project
order into the future, for ever.
  
35:11 K: That's right.
S: That's right.
  
35:13 Would you say that you can
get it by mechanical order?
  
35:15 B: But then we get dissatisfied
with it, you say...
  
35:18 'I am getting sick, bored with it,
I am sick of this mechanical life...
  
35:21 I want something
more interesting'.
  
35:22 K: That is where the gurus
come in! (Laughter)
  
35:25 B: Then the thing
goes wild again.
  
35:28 The mechanical order
won't satisfy it...
  
35:29 because it works
for a little while.
  
35:31 S: I don't like the way something
is slipping in there.
  
35:34 You say that we are going
like from one thing to another.
  
35:37 I'm looking for satisfaction
and then I'm not satisfied.
  
35:41 B: I am looking for some regular
order which is good.
  
35:45 And I think that by my job
as a doctor I am getting it.
  
35:48 S: Yes.
 
35:50 B: But after a while
I begin to feel it is...
  
35:52 too repetitious,
I'm getting bored.
  
35:54 S: OK. But suppose
that doesn't happen.
  
35:56 Suppose some people become
satisfied with mechanical order.
  
35:59 B: They don't really.
Then they become dull.
  
36:01 K: Quite. Mechanical; so
mechanical they don't...
  
36:05 …and you stop that mechanism...
 
36:07 the brain goes wild.
S: That's right.
  
36:08 B: So they may feel they are a
bit dull and they would like...
  
36:12 some entertainment...
 
36:13 or something more
interesting and exciting.
  
36:17 And therefore there
is a contradiction...
  
36:20 there is conflict
and confusion...
  
36:24 in the whole thing.
 
36:26 Take this woman who
could always get...
  
36:29 everything right by doing
arithmetical sums...
  
36:31 but you can't keep on doing
arithmetic sums! (Laughter)
  
36:37 I mean somewhere
she has got to stop...
  
36:39 doing these arithmetical sums.
S: Right.
  
36:41 B: Then her brain
will go wild again.
  
36:43 K: He is asking what
is disturbing him.
  
36:47 He feels he hasn't
put his teeth into it.
  
36:51 What is disturbing him?
 
36:53 S: You're right.
K: What is disturbing you?
  
36:56 S: Well, it is this feeling that,
people will say that...
  
37:01 K: No, you say, you.
S: I will say, let's say...
  
37:04 I can get this order, I can get
this mechanical order, and I can.
  
37:09 K: Yes, you can.
 
37:10 S: From occupying myself
in something I like.
  
37:13 K: Go on. Proceed.
 
37:14 S: I can do it.
I can do something I like...
  
37:18 and it gets boring, let's say,
or it might get repetitious...
  
37:21 but then I will find
new parts of it.
  
37:24 And then I'll do
that some more...
  
37:26 because that
gives me a pleasure.
  
37:28 I get a satisfaction
out of it.
  
37:30 So I keep doing more of that.
It's like an accumulative process.
  
37:34 K: No, you move from one
mechanical process...
  
37:38 get bored with it, and move to
another mechanical process...
  
37:41 get bored with it
and keep going.
  
37:43 And you call that living!
S: That's right. That's it!
  
37:47 That's what I call living.
 
37:49 B: The trouble in it, even
if I accept all that...
  
37:52 is that I now try to be sure
that I can keep on doing this...
  
37:55 because I can always
anticipate a future...
  
37:57 when I won't be able
to do it. You see?
  
37:59 I will be a bit too
old for the job...
  
38:02 or else I'll fail.
I'll lose the job...
  
38:04 In other words, I still have
insecurity in that order.
  
38:09 K: Essentially, essentially
it is mechanical disorder.
  
38:17 S: Masking itself as order.
K: Order.
  
38:26 Now, wait a minute.
 
38:27 Do you see this?
 
38:32 Or is it still an abstraction?
 
38:40 Because, you know, idea...
 
38:42 as Dr. Bohm will tell you,
idea means 'observation'...
  
38:49 the root meaning, observation.
Do you observe this?
  
38:58 S: I see that, yes.
I feel that I…
  
39:05 I think I see... Oh, no.
I see that.
  
39:10 What I see actually is,
I see this...
  
39:14 a movement that
goes on doing this...
  
39:17 very much like
Piaget's theory...
  
39:20 there is assimilation,
an accommodation...
  
39:23 and then there is seeing
of what doesn't fit...
  
39:25 and going on with it. And then
there is more assimilation...
  
39:27 and accommodation
and going on with it.
  
39:30 The psychologist, Piaget,
the French psychologist...
  
39:33 describes this as the
normative of human brains.
  
39:36 K: Yes, yes.
S: You know this.
  
39:40 K: I don't have to read Piaget,
I can observe it.
  
39:43 B: Then the point is...
 
39:46 Are you driven to
this because...
  
39:49 you're frightened of the
instability of the brain?
  
39:52 That would mean being
occupied with this.
  
39:55 And it seems then
that is disorder.
  
39:58 If you are doing something...
 
39:59 because you are trying to
run away from instability...
  
40:01 of the brain, that
is already disorder.
  
40:05 S: Yes, yes.
 
40:06 B: In other words, that will
merely be masking disorder.
  
40:09 S: Yes. Then you are suggesting
that this is being...
  
40:13 the natural disorder
of the brain.
  
40:14 Are you suggesting
a natural disorder?
  
40:16 B: No, I'm saying that the brain
seems to be disordered.
  
40:19 This seems to be a fact. Right?
 
40:21 That the brain without
occupation...
  
40:23 tends to go into disorder.
 
40:25 S: Without the mechanics
we get this.
  
40:28 That's what we know,
without the mechanics.
  
40:29 K: So that's frightened of it.
 
40:31 B: Well, it's dangerous actually
because one feels that...
  
40:34 if it keeps doing this, you don't
know what's going to happen.
  
40:36 K: Of course it's dangerous.
 
40:38 B: I mean I may do all
sorts of crazy things.
  
40:41 K: Yes. All the neurotics,
you know all that business.
  
40:45 B: I feel that the main danger
comes from within.
  
40:49 K: Absolutely.
 
40:55 Now, when you see it,
observe it...
  
41:00 there is action,
which is not fragmented.
  
41:08 B: One can feel that
you don't know...
  
41:11 whether this disorder can stop.
If you were sure...
  
41:16 that it could stop,
that religion...
  
41:18 that god will take care of it,
or something...
  
41:21 then you will have security.
K: Quite.
  
41:23 B: That god will give
you eternal bliss.
  
41:28 S: You don't feel that…
 
41:30 you don't feel that you
can depend on anything.
  
41:32 B: Nothing can control
that disorder.
  
41:34 This really seems
to be the thing...
  
41:36 that there is nothing that
can control that disorder.
  
41:39 You may take pills,
or do various things...
  
41:42 but it's always there
in the background.
  
41:44 S: Right.
K: Quite right.
  
41:47 B: I don't know whether we
should say, one question is...
  
41:49 why do we have this disorder?
 
41:53 If it were built into
the structure...
  
41:55 of the brain, seeing
this is human nature...
  
41:57 then there would be no way out.
 
42:00 K: No, sir. I think
the disorder arises...
  
42:05 first when we are mechanical
processes going on.
  
42:10 And in that mechanical process
the brain feels secure...
  
42:15 and when that
mechanical process..
  
42:17 is disturbed,
it becomes insecure.
  
42:21 S: Then it does it again.
 
42:23 K: Again, and again, and again.
 
42:25 S: It never stays
with that insecurity.
  
42:27 K: No, no.
 
42:29 When it perceives this process
is still mechanical...
  
42:36 and therefore disorder.
 
42:39 B: The question is why does the
brain get caught in mechanism?
  
42:42 In other words, it seems
in the situation...
  
42:45 the brain gets caught
in mechanical process.
  
42:47 K: Because it is the safest,
the most secure way of living.
  
42:50 B: Well, it appears that way.
But it's actually very...
  
42:53 K: Not appears. It is
so for the time being.
  
42:55 B: For the time being, but
in the long run it's not.
  
42:57 K: Ah, in the long run…
 
42:58 S: Are you saying
we are time bound...
  
43:04 K: Conditioned to be time bound,
conditioned by our tradition...
  
43:09 by our education, by the
culture we live in and so on...
  
43:13 to operate mechanically.
S: We take the easy way.
  
43:16 K: The easy way.
 
43:18 B: But it's also a kind
of mistake to say...
  
43:21 let's say in the beginning...
 
43:22 the mechanical way shows
signs of being safer...
  
43:27 and at the beginning...
 
43:28 the brain makes a mistake
and says 'This is safer'...
  
43:31 but then somehow
it fails to be able...
  
43:34 to see that it has
made a mistake...
  
43:36 it holds to this mistake.
 
43:39 In the beginning
you might call it...
  
43:40 an innocent mistake to say...
 
43:42 'This look safer and
I will follow it'.
  
43:44 But then after a while...
 
43:45 you are getting evidence
that it's not so safe...
  
43:47 but the brain begins to
reject it, keep away from it.
  
43:52 S: Well, I think you could raise
the issue whether there aren't...
  
43:57 certain given facts
in child rearing.
  
43:59 I mean when the mother feels...
 
44:01 the baby is crying and she
jams a nipple in its mouth...
  
44:06 that's teaching the baby...
 
44:07 that you shut up and
take the easy way out.
  
44:09 K: Poor baby. (laughs)
 
44:11 That is only the mothers
who don't want babies...
  
44:15 when they jam in the nipples.
 
44:18 B: I meant that's part of the
conditioning which explains...
  
44:22 how it is propagated.
But it still doesn't explain...
  
44:27 why the brain doesn't see
at some stage that it's wrong.
  
44:32 S: Why doesn't it see at some
stage that it's wrong?
  
44:36 B: In other words, it continues
in this mechanical process...
  
44:39 rather than seeing
that it's wrong.
  
44:41 K: You are asking,
why doesn't it see that this...
  
44:45 mechanical process is
essentially disorder.
  
44:48 B: It's disorder and dangerous.
 
44:50 K: Dangerous.
 
44:51 B: It's complete delusion.
Its security is totally delusory.
  
44:56 S: Why isn't there some sort
of feedback? In other words...
  
45:00 I do something and
it comes out wrong.
  
45:04 At some point I ought
to realise that.
  
45:06 For instance I have seen
my life is mechanical.
  
45:10 K: Now, wait. You see it?
S: But I don't.
  
45:13 K: Wait. Why is it mechanical?
 
45:20 S: Well, it is mechanical
because it goes...
  
45:23 like this, it is all
action and reaction.
  
45:28 K: Why is it mechanical?
 
45:32 S: It's repetitious.
 
45:33 K: Yes, which is mechanical.
S: Which is mechanical.
  
45:39 I want it to be easy. That is also
mechanical. I want it to be easy.
  
45:45 I feel that that gives me the most
security, to keep it mechanical.
  
45:51 I get a boundary. I know it's
like you say I have the house...
  
45:55 I have got my mechanical life,
that gives me security...
  
45:59 it's mechanical because
it's repetitious.
  
46:02 K: But you haven't
answered my question.
  
46:04 S: I know I haven't!
It's mechanical.
  
46:10 I'm not sure what your question is.
Your question is why...
  
46:13 K: ...has it become mechanical.
S: Why has it become mechanical?
  
46:16 B: Why does it remain mechanical?
 
46:18 K: Why does it become
and remain mechanical?
  
46:21 S: I think it remains mechanical,
it is the thing we began with.
  
46:27 K: Ah, no, you are not...
If you pursue it.
  
46:31 Why does it remain mechanical?
 
46:33 S: I don't see it's mechanical.
 
46:37 K: What has caused us to accept
this mechanical way of living?
  
46:46 S: I am not sure I can answer that.
 
46:48 The feel of it is that I would see
the insecurity, I would see.
  
46:53 K: No, look. Wouldn't you be
frightened if there was no…
  
46:58 S: I would see the uncertainty.
 
47:00 K: No, no. If the mechanical
process...
  
47:04 of life that one lives
suddenly stopped...
  
47:07 wouldn't you be frightened?
S: Yes.
  
47:09 B: Wouldn't there be
some genuine danger?
  
47:12 K: That, of course. There is
a danger that things might...
  
47:16 B: ...go to pieces.
K: ...to pieces.
  
47:21 S: Well, it is deeper than that.
K: Wait! Find out, come on.
  
47:24 S: It is not just that
there is a genuine...
  
47:27 danger that I would
be frightened.
  
47:29 It feels like that things
take on a terribly...
  
47:32 moment-by-moment effect.
 
47:35 K: No. Look.
Would total order...
  
47:45 give it complete security?
Wouldn't it?
  
47:50 Total order.
S: Right.
  
47:55 K: The brain wants total order.
S: Right.
  
47:58 K: Otherwise it can't
function properly.
  
48:00 Therefore it accepts
the mechanical...
  
48:05 and hoping it won't
lead to disaster.
  
48:09 S: Right.
 
48:10 K: Hoping it will
find order in that.
  
48:12 B: Could you say that...
 
48:13 perhaps in the beginning
the brain accepted this...
  
48:15 just simply not knowing...
 
48:17 that this mechanism
would bring disorder...
  
48:20 and it just went into it
by an innocent state?
  
48:22 K: Yes.
 
48:23 B: But then later...
K: ...caught in a trap.
  
48:25 B: It's caught in a trap.
 
48:26 And somehow it maintains
this disorder...
  
48:28 it doesn't want to get out of it.
 
48:31 K: Because it's frightened
of greater disorder.
  
48:33 B: Yes. It says...
 
48:34 'All that I've built up may go
to pieces'. In other words...
  
48:37 I'm not in the same situation...
 
48:39 as when I first went
in the trap because...
  
48:41 now I have built
up a great structure.
  
48:43 I think that structure
will go to pieces.
  
48:46 S: That's right.
I heard one man...
  
48:47 - I nearly jumped
out of my seat...
  
48:49 I heard one man
say to another...
  
48:51 to one of his colleagues,
he says...
  
48:52 'I have just published
my thirteenth book'.
  
48:55 He said it just like that!
 
48:59 (Laughter) The way he
said it was desperate.
  
49:02 K: No sir, what I am
trying to get at is...
  
49:04 the brain needs this order...
 
49:08 otherwise it can't function.
 
49:10 It finds order in
mechanical process...
  
49:13 because it's trained
from childhood...
  
49:16 do as you are told, etc.
 
49:20 There is a conditioning
going on right away...
  
49:23 to live a mechanical life.
 
49:26 S: Right.
 
49:28 B: As also the fear
induced of giving up...
  
49:30 this mechanism
at the same time.
  
49:31 K: Of course.
 
49:32 B: I mean that you are thinking
all the time that without this...
  
49:35 everything will go to pieces,
including especially the brain.
  
49:39 K: Brain, yes.
And so they break from...
  
49:43 this mechanical business
and join communities...
  
49:48 you know, all the process,
which is still mechanical.
  
49:51 S: Right, right.
 
49:54 K: Which means the
brain must have order.
  
50:03 And finds order in
a mechanical way.
  
50:08 Now, do I see,
do you see actually...
  
50:14 the mechanical way of
living leads to disorder?
  
50:22 Which is tradition.
 
50:26 If I live entirely in the past,
which is very orderly...
  
50:37 I think it is very orderly,
and what takes place?
  
50:46 I'm already dead...
 
50:49 and I can't meet anything.
S: I'm repeating myself always.
  
50:54 K: So please don't
disturb my tradition.
  
50:59 The communists say that...
 
51:00 the Catholics say that
- you follow?
  
51:02 The same thing!
And every human being...
  
51:05 says, 'Please, I
have found something...
  
51:07 which gives me order: a
belief, a hope, this or that...
  
51:12 and leave me alone.'
S: Right.
  
51:16 K: And life isn't going
to leave them alone.
  
51:22 So he gets frightened...
 
51:23 and establishes another
mechanical habit.
  
51:30 Now, do you see
this whole thing?
  
51:40 And therefore an instant action...
 
51:43 breaking it all away
and therefore order.
  
51:47 The brain that says,
'at last I have an order...
  
51:51 which is absolutely
indestructible.'
  
51:58 B: Well, I think it doesn't
follow from what you said...
  
52:01 that this will happen.
K: Of course.
  
52:02 B: In other words,
you are saying this.
  
52:04 K: I am saying it.
 
52:06 B: But it doesn't
follow logically.
  
52:10 K: It will follow logically
if you go into it.
  
52:12 B: If we go into it.
Can we reach a point...
  
52:14 where it really
follows necessarily?
  
52:18 K: I think we can
only go into it...
  
52:21 if you perceive the
mechanical security...
  
52:28 which the brain has developed,
attached and cultivated.
  
52:33 S: Can I share with
you something...
  
52:35 as you are talking,
I find myself...
  
52:39 I see it in a certain way
though, I see it like this...
  
52:44 don't get impatient with me too
quickly! I see it this way...
  
52:48 I can see the mechanicalness.
 
52:52 Right? And I see that I see...
 
52:54 and I was flashing
through my mind...
  
52:57 various kinds
of interchanges...
  
53:00 between people.
And the way they talk...
  
53:02 they way I talk to
them at a party...
  
53:05 at a cocktail party, and it's
all about what happened before.
  
53:09 K: Quite, quite.
 
53:10 S: You can see them
telling you who they are...
  
53:12 in terms of their past.
 
53:15 K: What they will be.
S: What they will be.
  
53:17 This guy I just described
to you, who said...
  
53:19 'I did my thirteenth book'...
 
53:21 he said it like that.
It is very important...
  
53:24 that I get that information.
 
53:26 And I see this
elaborate structure.
  
53:30 This guy has got
in his head that...
  
53:31 I'm going to think
this about him...
  
53:32 and then he is going to go...
 
53:33 to his university and he
is going to be thought that.
  
53:36 He is always living like that and
the whole structure is elaborate.
  
53:41 K: Are you doing that?
 
53:56 S: When did you stop beating
your wife! (laughs)
  
54:06 Of course I am doing it.
 
54:07 I am doing it right now!
I am seeing...
  
54:09 the structure right now,
all this, I am!
  
54:11 K: But do you see that we
were saying yesterday...
  
54:16 fragmentary action
is mechanical action.
  
54:19 S: That's right.
It's there, Krishnaji.
  
54:21 It's there, that's
the way we are.
  
54:24 K: And therefore political action
can never solve any problems...
  
54:30 human problems, or the
scientist, as a fragment.
  
54:36 S: Do you realise
what you are saying?
  
54:37 Let's really look at
what you are saying.
  
54:39 This is the way it is.
This is the way life is!
  
54:42 K: Right.
 
54:43 S: Right? This is the way it is.
Years and years and years.
  
54:48 K: Therefore, why don't
you change it?
  
54:54 S: That's right.
But this is the way it is.
  
54:57 We live in terms
of our structures.
  
54:59 We live in terms
of our histories.
  
55:01 We live in terms
of our mechanics.
  
55:03 We live in terms
of our form.
  
55:05 This is the way we live!
 
55:06 K: As we were saying at Ojai...
 
55:09 when the past
meets the present...
  
55:11 and ends there, a totally
different thing takes place.
  
55:21 S: Yes. But the past doesn't
meet the present so often.
  
55:27 K: This is taking place now!
 
55:29 S: Now it's coming, right now.
We are seeing it now.
  
55:34 K: Therefore can you stop there?
S: We must see it totally.
  
55:38 K: No. The fact, simple fact.
 
55:43 The past meets the
present. That's a fact.
  
55:48 B: How does the past meet the
present? Let us go into that.
  
55:51 K: We have got four minutes.
 
55:52 S: How do you say the
past meets the present?
  
55:58 We've got two
minutes now! (laughs)
  
56:06 B: Well, I think that the past
meeting the present stops...
  
56:13 the past is generally active
in the present towards the future.
  
56:20 Now, when the past
meets the present then...
  
56:24 the past stops acting.
 
56:30 And what it means
is that...
  
56:32 thought stops acting so
that order comes about.
  
56:35 S: Do you think that the
past meets the present...
  
56:37 or the present meets the past?
 
56:39 K: No. How do you meet me?
S: I meet you in the present.
  
56:45 K: No. How do you meet me?
 
56:50 With all the memories,
all the images...
  
56:54 the reputation, the words, the
pictures, the symbol, all that...
  
56:59 with that which is the past,
you meet me now.
  
57:02 S: That's right. I come
to you with a comfort...
  
57:05 K: No, no. The past
is meeting the present.
  
57:11 B: Aren't you saying that the past...
S: That's right, go ahead.
  
57:15 B: That the past should
stop meeting the present?
  
57:17 S: No. He is not saying that.
You can't say that!
  
57:20 K: I'm saying something,
he's right...
  
57:22 S: (Laughs) I know
but let him say it.
  
57:25 K: What I'm trying to say is that
the past meets the present.
  
57:29 S: And then?
 
57:30 K: Can the past end there?
Not move forward.
  
57:34 S: Can it? But is that
the right question?
  
57:38 What is the past meeting the
present? What is that action?
  
57:44 K: I meet you with a picture.
S: Why should I stop?
  
57:49 K: I will show it to you.
 
57:52 I meet you with the past,
my memories...
  
57:57 but you might have changed
all that in the meantime.
  
58:04 So I never meet you.
 
58:06 I meet you with the past.
S: Right. That's a fact.
  
58:09 K: That's a fact. Now if I don't
have that movement going on...
  
58:16 S: But I do.
K: Of course, you do.
  
58:20 But I say that is disorder.
I can't meet you then.
  
58:24 S: Right. How do you know that?
 
58:29 K: I only know, I don't know it.
I only know the fact that...
  
58:34 when the past meets the
present and continues...
  
58:39 it is one of the factors...
 
58:41 of time movement, bondage,
all the fear, and so on.
  
58:47 When there is the past meeting
the present, and says yes...
  
58:52 I am fully aware of this...
 
58:56 completely aware of this
movement, then it stops.
  
59:04 Then I meet you as though...
 
59:06 for the first time,
there is something fresh...
  
59:09 it's like a new flower
coming out.
  
59:18 S: Yes.
 
59:24 K: I think...
- we will go on tomorrow.
  
59:29 We haven't really tackled...
 
59:32 the root of all this...
 
59:39 the root, the cause
or the root...
  
59:42 of all this disturbance,
this turmoil...
  
59:46 travail, anxiety
- you follow?
  
59:50 B: Why should the brain
be in this wild disorder?
  
59:53 K: I know, wild.
 
59:59 You, who are a doctor, an analyst
and all the rest of it...
  
1:00:02 you have to ask that
fundamental question - why?
  
1:00:07 Why do human beings live this way?
 
1:00:09 S: Right. Why do they?
I ask that all the time.
  
1:00:14 Why are human beings sick?
 
1:00:18 K: Time.
B: Right. (Laughter)