Krishnamurti - In aloneness you can be completely secure

Krishnamurti Subtitles

BR76CTM4 - In aloneness you can be completely secure
Brockwood Park, UK - 19 May 1976
The Transformation of Man 4

0:09	K: I don't think we answered yesterday the question... why human beings live the way they are living. I don't think we went into it sufficiently deeply. Did we answer it?
0:29	S: We got to a point… we never answered that question. I left here feeling…
0:35	K: No, I was thinking about it last night... I mean this morning rather... and it struck me that we hadn't answered it fully. We went into the question of 'Can thought observe itself'?
0:48	S: Right. B: Yes.
0:51	K: But I think we ought to answer that question.
0:54	B: But I think that what we said was on the way to answering it. It was relevant to the answer.
1:00	K: Yes, relevant. But it's not complete.
1:02	B: Yes.
1:05	S: No, it's not complete, it doesn't get hold of that issue... why do people live the way they do... and why don't they change? Why, knowing this, they don't change.
1:16	K: Yes. Could we go into that a little bit before we go on with…
1:24	S: Well, my immediate answer to that question was... that they like it, that it provides... we came up against that and sort of pulled away...
1:34	K: I think it's much deeper than that, don't you? Because what is involved... ...economically, if you… if one actually transformed one's conditioning... the way one lives… economically you might find yourself... in a very difficult position. S: Right.
2:03	K: And also, it's going against the current. Completely against the current.
2:11	B: Are you saying that it might lead... to a certain objective insecurity?
2:15	K: Objective insecurity.
2:17	B: It's not merely a matter of the imagination.
2:18	K: No, actual insecurity.
2:21	B: Because a lot of things we were discussing yesterday... was some illusion of security or insecurity... but in addition there is some genuine...
2:28	K: ...genuine insecurity. B: ...insecurity.
2:32	K: And also, doesn't it imply that you have to stand alone.
2:40	S: It definitely… you would be in a new… You would be in a totally different... position because you wouldn't be...
2:49	K: It's like, completely... - not isolated - away from the stream. And that means that you have to be alone... psychologically alone... and whether human beings can stand that.
3:11	S: Certainly this other is completely to be together.
3:14	K: That is herd instinct, which all the totalitarian people use... and also everything is together... be with people, don't be alone.
3:27	S: Be like them, be with them… It's all based on competition... in some way, I am better than you...
3:36	K: Of course, of course. All the Olympiad is all that.
3:39	B: Well, it's unclear because... in some sense we should be together... but not in that sense... K: Of course.
3:46	B: Society, it seems to me, is giving us... some false sense of togetherness... which is really fragmentation.
3:53	K: Yes, quite right.
3:54	B: But it's called being together. It makes you feel that way, for a moment.
4:00	K: So would you say, one of the main reasons... that human beings don't want to... radically transform themselves... is that they are really frightened... of not to belong to a group... to a herd, to something definite... which implies standing completely alone? And I think from that aloneness you can only co-operate... not the other way round.
4:33	S: Certainly, empirically, people don't like... to be different, that we know, and empirically they…
4:44	K: You must have seen on the television... Chinese boys training, the Russians... all the eastern satellite people... all of them training, training, never alone.
5:01	S: Right. B: Yes.
5:04	K: I once talked to a FBI man. He came to see me and he said... 'Why is it that you walk alone all the time? Why are you so much alone? I see you among the hills walking alone… why?' You follow? He thought, that's very disturbing.
5:30	B: I think, even anthropologists find that... in more primitive people... the sense of belonging to the tribe... is even stronger. They feel completely lost... their entire psychological structure... depends on being in the tribe.
5:45	K: And I think, that is one of the reasons why... we don't want to... we are frightened! After all, cling to the misery that you already know... than come into another kind of misery that you don't know.
6:02	S: That's right. But there is a whole action/reaction scheme. That is, by being with others... K: ...you're safe.
6:13	S: ...you're safe. And you're… it even goes further, there is an action... it's almost as if you could say that being with others... is the off-shoot of always living from... 'you're this, I compare myself with you and therefore... I'm together with you', sort of as the afterthought. You know what I mean? That is part of the circle.
6:41	B: Even if you leave off comparison... I think there is something deeper... in the sense that people feel this... togetherness, this sense of belonging... to the group, even if they are not comparing... they just feel it's safe, they will be taken care of... like your mother may have taken care of you... you are sort of gently supported, that fundamentally... it'll be all right because the group is large, it's wise... it knows what to do. I think there is a feeling like that, rather deep. The church may give that feeling.
7:16	K: Yes. You've seen those animal pictures? They are always in herds.
7:25	S: Except the mountain lion. Did you ever read about the lion? There have been some studies done... by this fellow Shaller, in which he shows that the lion… always, in lion groups... there is always one who goes off alone.
7:40	K: Yes… S: You have read about that?
7:42	K: I've heard about it. B: Anyway, the cats are not…
7:46	K: The feeling of aloneness is much more... - it has got a great deal in it. It isn't just - I say, it is not isolation.
7:58	S: Right.
8:00	B: But, I was asking, people are seeking... that sense that from the group you have... some support from the whole. K: Of course.
8:09	B: Now, isn't it possible that you are discussing an aloneness... in which you have a certain security? People are seeking in the group a kind of security... it seems to me, that can arise actually only in aloneness.
8:24	K: Yes, that's right. In aloneness you can be completely secure.
8:28	B: I wonder if we could discuss that because it seems... there is an illusion there... people sense that you might feel that you should... have a sense of security. K: Quite.
8:38	B: And they are looking for it in a group, the group being... representative of something universal.
8:44	K: The group is not the universal.
8:46	B: It isn't, but that's the way we think of it.
8:48	K: Of course.
8:49	B: The little child thinks the tribe is the whole world.
8:52	K: I mean, a human being as he lives this way... if he transforms himself, he becomes alone, he is alone. that aloneness is not isolation... and therefore it's a form of supreme intelligence.
9:16	B: Yes, but could you go into that a little further... about it not being isolation... because at first when you say alone... the feeling is that I'm here, entirely apart. Right?
9:25	K: It is not apart, no. B: That perhaps...
9:28	S: What do you think it is that a person experiences? There is one part of it that all people seem to gravitate... they have to be together, they have to be like other people. What would change that? That's one question. What would change anybody from that? And 2nd of all, why should anybody change from that? And 3rd of all, what does such a person... experience when they are alone? They experience isolation.
10:04	K: I thought we dealt with that fairly... thoroughly the other day. After all, when one realises... the appalling state of the world... and oneself - the disorder, the confusion, the misery... and all the rest of it, and when one says... there must be a total change... a total transformation, he has already begun... to move away from all that.
10:35	S: Right. But here he is altogether, being together.
10:44	K: No. Being together, what does it really mean?
10:47	S: I mean being in this group. K: Yes, what does it really mean?
10:51	S: Being together is different from this having to be...
10:54	K: No. Identifying oneself with a group, and remain with a group... what does it mean? What is involved in it?
11:03	S: That's right, what is involved in it. I think... one of the things that's involved in it... is what I said before. It sets up this comparison.
11:11	K: No, no, apart from all that superficiality... what is involved in it? The group is me. I'm the group.
11:21	K: So therefore… It's like co-operating with myself.
11:27	B: I think you could say like... Descartes said 'I think, therefore I am'. Meaning that I think implies that I am there. 'I am in the group, therefore I am'. That's the sort of if I am not in the group, where am I?
11:38	K: Yes. B: In other words... I have no being at all. That's really the condition... of the primitive tribe, for most of the members anyway. So there is something deep there... because I feel that my very existence... my being psychologically... is implied in being first in the group. The group has made me. Everything about me has come from the group. Do you see? I say 'I am nothing without the group.'
12:08	K: Yes, quite right. I am the group, in fact.
12:10	S: Right.
12:11	B: Therefore, if I am out of the group... I feel everything is collapsing. That seems to me is deeper than the question of competing... who is the chief, or who is the big shot or...
12:24	S: Right. B: That's a secondary affair.
12:27	S: Except that I wasn't really saying that... that was important so much... as I was saying that the very action... what I am trying to get at is some... of the moment to moment experience... of being in the group, which is occupied.
12:41	B: Could I say that... the more striking thing is what happens when... such a person is taken out of the group and he feels lost. In other words, all that stuff seems unimportant... because he doesn't know where he is.
12:52	S: Right. He doesn't know... he has no orientation.
12:56	B: To life or to anything. S: Right.
13:01	B: And therefore, the greatest punishment... that the group could make would be to banish him.
13:07	K: Yes, they used to do that. S: Oh, yes.
13:09	K: Look what's happening in Russia, when there is a dissenter... he's banished. S: Right, right.
13:15	K: Solzhenitsyn and Sakharov and all those people... are against the group.
13:20	S: Right. Right.
13:22	B: Because such a banishment sort of robs him of his being... it is almost like killing him, you see.
13:27	K: Of course. I think that's where it is, the fear of being alone... alone is translated as being isolated from all this.
13:43	B: Could we say from the universal? The false universal.
13:46	K: Yes, from the universal.
13:49	B: It seems to me you are implying that if you are really alone... genuinely alone, then you are not isolated from the universe.
13:54	K: Absolutely not - on the contrary! S: That's what he's saying.
13:58	B: That's what he's saying, but I mean… therefore we have to be free of this false universal first.
14:03	S: This false identification… B: With the group.
14:05	S: …identification with the group.
14:07	B: Identification of the group as the universal, you see. Treating the group as if it were the universal support... of my being, or something.
14:15	S: Right. There is something more to that. What's being said is that… When that localised identification... that I am the group, that 'me'... that false security is dropped, then one is opened up... to the participation in... B: In something.
14:35	K: No, there is no question of participation... - you are the universe.
14:38	S: You are that.
14:40	B: I can remember as a child I felt that... I was in a certain town... I felt that was the whole universe... then I heard of another town beyond that which seemed... almost beyond the universe and it seemed... that must be the ultimate limits of all reality. So the idea of going beyond that... would not have occurred to me. And I think that's the way that the group is treated. We know abstractly it's not so... but in the feeling that you have... it's like the little child.
15:09	K: Therefore, is it that human beings love or… hold on to their own misery... confusion, and all the rest of it... because they don't know anything else?
15:30	K: The known is safer than the unknown.
15:33	S: Right. The known… yes.
15:39	K: Now, to be alone implies, doesn't it... to step out of the stream.
15:48	S: Out of the known.
15:50	K: Step out of the stream of this... utter confusion, disorder, sorrow... despair, hope, travail, all that... - to step out of all that.
16:00	S: Right.
16:04	K: And if you want to go much deeper into that... to be alone implies, doesn't it... not to carry the burden of tradition with you at all.
16:21	B: Tradition being the group, then.
16:23	K: Group. Tradition also being knowledge.
16:26	B: Knowledge, but it comes basically from the group. Knowledge is basically collective. K: Collective.
16:31	B: It is collected by everybody.
16:37	K: So to be alone implies total freedom. And when there is that great freedom, it's the universe.
16:51	B: Could we go into that further because, to a person... who hasn't seen this, it doesn't look obvious.
17:00	S: It doesn't look obvious - I think, David is right there. To a person, to most people, I think... and I have tested this out recently... that the idea, or even... the deep feeling that you are the universe... that you don't have to do anything, that seems to be...
17:25	K: Ah, sir, that's the most dangerous thing. That's the most dangerous thing to say. How can you say you are the universe... when you are in total confusion? When you are unhappy, miserable... anxious, jealous, envious, all that - how can you say... you are the universe? Universe implies total order.
17:56	B: Yes, the cosmos in Greek meant order.
17:58	K: Order, of course. B: And chaos was the opposite.
18:01	K: Yes. S: But I...
18:03	K: No, listen, universe, cosmos, means order.
18:08	S: Right. B: And chaos is what we have.
18:11	K: Chaos is what we live with. S: That's right.
18:14	K: How can I think I have universal order in me? That's the good old trick... of the mind which says... 'Disorder is there, but inside you... there is perfect order, old boy'. That's an illusion. It's a concept which thought has put there... and it gives me a certain hope... and therefore it's an illusion, it has no reality. What has actual reality is my confusion.
18:54	S: Right.
18:56	K: My chaos. And I can imagine, I can project a cosmos.
19:04	S: Right.
19:06	K: But that's equally illusory. So I must start with the fact of what I am.
19:14	S: Right. K: Which is I'm in a chaos.
19:19	S: I belong to a group. K: Chaos - chaos is the group.
19:23	S: Right.
19:24	K: They have political leaders, religious - you follow? the whole thing is a chaos. So to move away from that into cosmos... which is total order, means... not that I'm alone, there is a total order... which is not associated with disorder, chaos. That is alone.
19:52	B: Yes, well, can we go into that. Suppose several people are doing that... in that state, moving into cosmos... into order, out of the chaos of society.
20:02	K: That's right. B: Now then, are they all alone?
20:05	K: No, of course. B: We want to get it clear.
20:10	K: No, they don't feel alone there. There is only order.
20:15	B: Are there different people?
20:18	K: Sir, would you say, suppose - no, I can't suppose. We 3 are in cosmos, there is only cosmos... not you, Dr. Bohm, Dr. Shainberg and me.
20:33	B: Therefore, we are still alone. K: Order is alone!
20:37	B: Yes, I looked up the word 'alone' in the dictionary... basically it is 'all one'. K: All one, yes, yes.
20:44	B: In other words, that there is no fragmentation.
20:46	K: Therefore there is no 3; and that is marvellous, sir.
20:54	S: But you jumped away there. We got chaos and confusion. That's what we got.
21:00	K: So, as we said, to move away from that... most people are afraid... which is to have total order. Alone, as he pointed out - all one. Therefore there is no fragmentation... when there is cosmos.
21:19	S: Right. But most people are in confusion and chaos. That's all they know.
21:25	K: So, move. How do you move away from that? That is the whole question.
21:30	S: That's the question. Here we are, in chaos and confusion... we are not over there.
21:36	K: No, because you may be frightened of that.
21:39	S: May be frightened of that.
21:41	K: Frightened of an idea of being alone.
21:44	S: How can you be frightened of an idea?
21:45	B: That's easy.
21:47	K: Aren't you frightened of tomorrow? Which is an idea.
21:50	S: OK. So it's an idea.
21:52	K: They are frightened of an idea which they've projected... which says 'my god I am alone... which means I have nobody to rely on'.
22:04	S: Right, but that's an idea.
22:06	B: Well, let's go slowly because also…
22:08	S: Yes, this is very important.
22:10	B: We've said to a certain extent that it's genuinely so... you are not being supported by society anymore... You do have a certain genuine danger... because you have withdrawn from the web of society.
22:22	K: Yes. If you are a Protestant... in a Catholic country it becomes very difficult.
22:29	S: I think we are confused here. I really do, because... if we've got confusion, if we've got chaos...
22:37	K: No. Not 'if', it is so.
22:40	S: It is so, OK - I go with you. Now, we've got chaos and confusion... that's what we've got. Now, if you have an idea about being alone... while in chaos and confusion... that's just another idea, another thought... another part of the chaos. K: Yes, that's all.
22:57	S: Is that right? K: That's right.
22:58	S: OK. Now, that's all we have got; is chaos and confusion.
23:02	B: Wait. I feel… Watch the question of language... because when you use the word 'all', it closes things.
23:08	S: OK. All right.
23:10	B: We were saying yesterday that language has to be... more free in its usage, a bit poetic perhaps... and if you use this word 'all', you have to watch it.
23:21	S: All right. But we have this. We have chaos. B: We have chaos.
23:25	S: OK. Now, that's what we have. Now what is... I have an idea, let me say what my idea is... that most people are… let's say, unaware... unwilling, don't believe in... don't know anything about this 'all one'.
23:48	K: I'm not talking about that. We're not talking about that.
23:51	S: Right, we don't have that. K: No.
23:53	S: All we have right now is chaos.
23:56	B: Leave out the word 'all'.
23:58	S: OK. We've got chaos. (Laughter)
24:03	K: Chaos. Now, being in chaotic condition... to move away from that... they have the feeling that they will be alone.
24:16	S: Right. B: In the sense of isolated.
24:18	B: Not the sense of 'all one'. K: Isolated.
24:21	S: That's what I am getting at. K: They will be lonely.
24:24	S: That's right.
24:26	K: Isolated. Of that they are frightened.
24:29	S: Not frightened - in terror.
24:31	K: Therefore they say 'I would rather stay where I am... in my little pond, rather than face isolation'.
24:41	S: That's right.
24:42	K: And that may be one of the reasons... that human beings don't radically change.
24:47	S: That's right.
24:48	B: Like this primitive tribe, the worst punishment... is to be banished, or isolated.
24:53	S: You don't have to go to a primitive tribe, I see people... and talk to people all the time... patients come to me and say... 'Look, Saturday night came, I couldn't stand to be alone... I called up 50 people, looking for someone to be with'.
25:05	B: Yes, that's much the same. S: 'I had to join this group'.
25:08	B: It's much the same. I think it comes... in a more simple and purer form there... people just frankly admit it and they know that's the case.
25:14	S: Right.
25:15	K: So, that may be one of the reasons... why human beings don't change. The other is, we are so heavily conditioned... to accept things as they are. I mean, we don't say to ourselves... 'Why should I live this way?'
25:41	S: That's certainly true. We are definitely conditioned to believe... that this is all it can be.
25:48	B: Well, that's important. That's an explanation... 'We are conditioned to believe... that this is all that is possible'. This word 'all' is one of the traps that holds us...
25:55	S: Maybe that's the very fact. Right.
25:56	B: If you say 'This is all that can be'... then what can you do?
26:00	K: Nothing. Nothing.
26:01	B: You see, this use of language that... This way of using language may be a chain.
26:06	K: Quite right, sir. B: You have to watch that word…
26:08	S: It is the condition. B: But the word 'all'...
26:11	K: That's what he is pointing out. B: The word 'all'...
26:15	K: When you say 'This is all I know'... you've already stopped.
26:19	S: Right.
26:19	B: Because what does the word 'all' do. It closes everything. It says that this thing is 'all' of reality. It's got to be real.
26:28	B: One thing is that it turns an idea into reality, apparently. It gives that sense of reality to the idea... because if you say that's 'all' there is... then that has to be real, see what I mean?
26:38	S: Yes, I think that's a very good point. That's very much like... the points that we've been making where... the very act of thinking, that thought is complete… a thought becomes reality… So, again the language itself is the condition.
26:57	K: So, shall we say... human beings don't radically transform themselves... they're frightened of being isolated from the group... banished from the group. That's one reason. And also traditionally we are so conditioned... that we would rather... accept things as they are, our misery, our chaos… all the rest of it, and not say... 'For god's sake, let me change this'.
27:30	S: Right.
27:33	B: Well, we have to get out... of this conviction that the way things are is all that can be…
27:37	K: Yes, that's right. The religions have pointed this out... by saying there is another world - aspire to that. This is a transient world, it doesn't matter. Live as best as you can in your sorrow... but hand over your sorrow to Jesus, or Christ or somebody... and you will be perfectly happy in the next world.
28:06	S: Right.
28:08	K: So, the communists say there is no next world... but make the best of this world.
28:13	B: I think they would say that there is happiness... in the future in this world.
28:17	K: Yes, yes. Sacrifice your children… everything, for a future; which is exactly the same thing.
28:26	B: But it seems that it's sort of a transformation... of the same thing that... if we say we have this society as it is... and we want to give it up but we invent something similar...
28:39	K: Yes, quite. B: ...to go to.
28:43	S: We have to invent, it has to be similar... if we are inventing it - out of the system.
28:47	B: Yes, but it seems that it's an important point... it's a subtle way of not... not being alone.
28:55	K: Quite right.
28:56	S: You mean to go ahead and make it out of the old ideas?
29:00	B: Yes. To make heaven, or the future.
29:03	K: So, what will make human beings change, radically?
29:11	S: I don't know. I think that this is such… you see, even the idea that you are suggesting here... is that they say it can't be different... or it's all the same - that is part of the system itself.
29:24	K: Agreed. Now, wait. May I ask you a question? Why don't you change? What is preventing you?
29:37	S: I would say that is... it's a tough question. I suppose the answer would be that... I don't know how to answer it.
30:01	K: Because you've never asked yourself that question. Right?
30:07	S: Not radically.
30:11	K: We are asking basic questions.
30:15	S: Right. I don't really know the answer to the question.
30:21	K: Now sir, move away from that. Is it as our structure… as our whole society, all religion... all culture, is based on thought... and thought says 'I can't do this... therefore an outside agency... is necessary to change me'.
30:46	K: Whether the outside agency is... the environment, the leader, Hitler, this... or Stalin and Mao, or somebody outside, or god. God is your own projection of yourself... obviously. And you believe in god... you believe in Mao, you believe - but you are still the same.
31:12	S: That's right. Right.
31:14	K: You may identify with the State and so on, but you are still... good old 'me' there is operating. So, is it that thought doesn't see its own limit... and know, realise, it cannot change itself? Realise it!
31:42	B: Well, I think that something more subtle happens. Thought loses track of something and... it doesn't see... that it itself is behind all this.
31:59	K: We said that, thought has produced all this chaos.
32:02	B: But thought doesn't really see it... you know, abstractly. But I think, you see, in its bones.
32:08	S: What about the whole business that thought... what thought does in fact is... it communicates through gradual change.
32:16	K: That's all invention of thought.
32:18	S: Yes, but that's where I think the hook is.
32:21	K: No, sir, please, just listen. S: Sure.
32:24	K: Thought has put this world together. Technologically as well as psychologically. And the technological world is all right, leave it alone... we won't even discuss it - it would become too absurd. So, psychologically thought has built... all this world, in me and outside me... the churches, society and so on. Does thought realise it has made this mess, this chaos?
33:03	B: I would say it doesn't. It tends to look on this chaos as... independently existent... K: But it's its baby!
33:10	B: It is, but it's very hard for it to see that. We were discussing that... at the end of the hour yesterday.
33:16	K: Yes, we are coming back to that.
33:18	B: This question of how thought gives a sense of reality. We were saying technology deals... with something that thought made... but it is actually an independent reality once it's made.
33:31	K: Made it, like the table, like those cameras.
33:34	B: Yes. But you could say that thought also creates a reality... which it calls independent but isn't. I thought of a good example that's the Corporation.
33:48	B: People are working for the Corporation, it makes money... it loses money, they strike against the Corporation and so on. But actually you could say, where is the Corporation? It's not in the buildings because... K: They are part of it.
34:01	B: If all the people were gone the buildings would be nothing... and if the buildings all burnt down... the corporation could still exist... as long as people think it exists.
34:10	S: Right. And it pays taxes, the Corporation... pays taxes, not the individual.
34:14	K: So, does thought realise, see... aware - that it has created this chaos?
34:23	S: No.
34:25	K: Why not? But you sir, do you realise it?
34:35	S: I realise that thought... K: Not you - does thought? You see how you…? I have asked you a different question... does thought, which is you... thinking, does your thinking realise... the chaos it has created?
34:57	B: Thinking tends to attribute the chaos to something else... either to something outside, or to 'me' who is inside. At most, I would say that I have done it... but then thinking is attributing... saying that I am doing the thinking. Do you see what I am driving at? K: Yes.
35:16	B: That there is 'something' thinking. I was going to say that it's like the Corporation... thinking has invented a sort of a Corporation... who is supposed to be responsible for thinking. We could call it 'Thinking Incorporated'!
35:28	K: 'Thinking Incorporated' - quite, quite.
35:30	B: And, you see, the Corporation is supposed to be thinking.
35:35	S: Yes, yes.
35:36	B: So, we attribute, we give credit... for thought to this corporation called 'me'.
35:41	S: That's a good way to look at it, yes.
35:44	K: Thought has created me.
35:46	S: It creates an Institution. B: …but also thought has said... that me is not thought, but a reality independent of thought.
35:52	K: Of course, of course.
35:53	B: Thought treats the corporation... as if it were there, just standing... like the buildings or the table. It says' it is a reality', it is not a mere... I think it's in this question of reality, there are... certain realities which are independent of thought… but there are certain things which are appearances... like if you are standing on a cliff looking... at the ocean, you see all the play of light... which is not an independent reality... but it's due to the sky, the sea, and me... all interrelated. K: Of course.
36:26	B: So, it's important to keep clear... whether it's a reality that arises... through this whole… it's dependent on this whole movement... or whether it stands self-generated, independent. Thought is treating 'me' as an independent reality.
36:44	K: Of course.
36:45	B: And thought is saying that it's coming from 'me'... and therefore it doesn't take credit for what it does.
36:53	K: To me, thought has created the 'me'.
36:56	S: That's right.
36:57	K: And so the 'me' is not separate from thought. It is the structure of thought. The nature of thought that has made 'me'. Now, does thought, does your thinking... or does your thought realise this?
37:20	S: I would say yes and no. K: No, no.
37:23	S: It's like in flashes it does. K: No, not in flashes. You don't see... that table in flashes - it is always there.
37:37	S: I think what actually happens though... is that you see the action… I wonder, it seems as though... - if we could be honest about this... completely true about it, what do we see when… what happens... or what is the actuality of thought seeing this creation?
38:01	K: No. We asked a question yesterday, we stopped there... Does thought see itself in movement?
38:09	S: Right.
38:11	K: The movement has created the 'me'... created the chaos, created the division... created the conflict, jealousy, anxiety, fear - all that.
38:20	S: Right. Now, what I'm asking is another question, yesterday... we came to a moment where we said 'thought stops'.
38:29	K: No, that's much later. Please just stick to one thing.
38:34	S: OK, but thought - what I'm trying to get at is... What is the actuality of thought seeing itself...
38:41	K: Tell me. You want me to describe it.
38:45	S: No, I don't want you to describe it. I am trying to get at is... what is my actuality. What is the actuality that thought sees? And as I observe this... - we get into language here, the problem of language... but it seems that thought sees and forgets.
39:03	K: No, please. I am asking a very simple question. Don't complicate it. Does thought see the chaos it has created? That's all. Which means... Is thought aware of itself as a movement? Not, 'I am aware of thought as a movement'. The 'I' has been created by thought.
39:40	B: I think the question that is relevant is... Why does thought keep on going? Why does it sustain itself? Because as long as it sustains itself... it does produce something... like an independent reality, an illusion of one.
39:53	K: Why does thought...
39:55	B: Why does thought keep on going?
39:59	S: What is my relationship to thought?
40:03	K: You are thought. There is not a 'you' related to 'thought'.
40:09	B: That's the way the language says there is one... it says 'I am the entity who produces the thought'.
40:15	B: Which is to say, like General Motors says... 'I am the Corporation which is producing automobiles'.
40:21	S: But look, look. You're right. How can I get it… The question is, I say to you... 'What is my relationship to thought?'... you say to me, 'You are thought'. In some way what you say is clear... but that's still what's coming from me... do you see? That is still the way... thought is moving, to say 'It's my relationship to thought'.
40:52	B: That's the point, to say... 'Can this very thought stop right now?' Do you see? K: Yes.
40:57	B: What is sustaining this whole thing, at this very moment... was the question I was trying to get at.
41:03	S: That's the question.
41:04	B: In other words, say we have a certain insight... but something happens... to sustain the old process nevertheless, right now.
41:13	S: That's right. Right now thought keeps moving.
41:18	K: No, he asked, Dr. Bohm asked a very good question... which we haven't answered. He said 'Why does thought move'?
41:27	B: When it's irrelevant to move. K: Why is it always moving?
41:31	S: That's right.
41:33	K: So, what is movement? Movement is time. Right?
41:43	S: That's too quick. Movement is time… K: Of course.
41:50	S: Movement is movement.
41:51	K: No, no. From here to there. S: Right
41:57	K: Physically. From here to there. Physically - from here to London, from here to New York. And also psychologically from here to there.
42:08	S: Right. K: I am this, I must be that.
42:13	S: Right. But a thought is not necessarily all that.
42:20	K: Thought is the movement. We are examining movement, which is thought.
42:29	S: Thought...
42:31	K: Look, if thought stopped, there is no movement.
42:36	S: Yes, I am trying to… This has to be made very clear.
42:41	B: I think there is a kind of step that might help…
42:44	S: What is that?
42:46	B: I ask myself 'what is it... that makes me go on thinking or talking'. I often can watch people and see they are in a hole.. just because they keep on talking, if they would stop talking... the whole problem would vanish. It's just this flow of words that… because what they say... then comes out as if it were reality in them... and then they say... 'That is my problem, it's real... and I have to think some more'. I think there is a kind of feedback. Suppose I say... 'Well, I have got a problem, I am suffering'.
43:20	S: You have an 'I' though.
43:22	B: Yes. I think that, therefore I have a sense that I am real. I am thinking of my suffering... but it's implicit that it's I who is there... and that the suffering is real because I am real.
43:35	S: Right.
43:36	B: Then comes the next thought, which is 'since that is real... I must think some more'. S: Right.
43:41	B: Because if it were that would be the case.
43:43	S: It feeds on itself.
43:45	B: Yes. And then one of the things I must think is... 'What is my problem'? Which is that I am suffering. I am compelled to keep on thinking... that thought all the time... maintaining myself in existence... do you see what I am driving at? There is a feedback.
44:00	K: Which means sir, as thought is movement... which is time, if there is no movement, I am dead! I am dead!
44:12	B: Yes, if that movement stops, then... that sense that I am there being real must go because... that sense that I am real is the result of thinking.
44:20	K: Do you see, this is extraordinary.
44:22	S: Of course it is.
44:23	K: No, actually. In actuality, not in theory.
44:28	S: Right, right.
44:30	K: One realises thought as movement. Right?
44:34	S: Right.
44:37	K: There is not 'I' realise thought as a movement... thought itself realises it's movement. It is in movement.
44:46	B: And in this movement it creates an image of...
44:49	B: ...'me' who is supposed to be moving.
44:51	K: Yes, yes. S: Right.
44:53	K: Now, when that movement stops... there is no 'me'. The 'me' is the time... is time, put together by time - which is thought.
45:08	S: Right.
45:09	K: So, do you, listening to this... realise the truth of it? Not the verbal, logical truth, logical statement... but the truth of such an amazing thing? Therefore there is an action entirely different from that. The action of thought as movement... brings about fragmentary actions... contradictory actions. When the movement as thought... comes to an end there is total action.
46:14	B: Can you say then that whatever technical thought... comes about, then is in order? K: Of course.
46:20	B: In other words, it doesn't mean that thought is permanently gone.
46:25	K: No, no. No.
46:28	S: It could still be a movement in its proper place; its fitting order. If the right and proper thought. K: Its proper place.
46:35	S: And it comes about… I mean, the brain can still... do that thing. Right? B: Yes.
46:41	K: So, am I - not, 'am I' - a human being... is he afraid of all this? Unconsciously, deeply, he must realise the ending of me. Do you understand? And that is really a most frightening thing. me, my knowledge, my books... my wife, my... - you follow? The whole thing which thought has put together. And you are asking me to end all that.
47:23	B: Yes. Can you say it's the ending of everything? Because everything that I know is in there.
47:32	K: Absolutely. So, you see really, I'm frightened... a human being is frightened of death. - not the biological death. S: To die now.
47:54	K: Death of this coming to an end. And therefore he believes in god... reincarnation, a dozen other comforting things... but in actuality... When thought... When thought realises itself as a movement and sees that... that movement has created the 'me'... the divisions, the quarrels, the political... you follow? - the whole structure of the chaotic world... when thought realises it, it sees the truth of it and ends. Therefore it is in cosmos. Then there is cosmos. Now, you listen to this... how do you receive it?
48:57	S: Do you want me to…
48:59	K: Receive it. S: Receive it.
49:01	K: I offer you something. How do you receive it? This is very important.
49:09	S: Yes. Thought sees its movement...
49:13	K: No, no. How do you receive it? How does the public... who listens to all this, say, 'How am I listening to this... what is he trying to tell me?'
49:38	S: How?
49:39	K: He says, 'I am not telling you anything'. He says, 'Listen to what I am saying and find out... for yourself whether thought as movement... in that movement it has created all this... both the technological world which is useful... which is necessary... and this chaotic world.
50:08	K: How do you receive, listen to it; or the public - another who is not here... listen to it? How do you listen to it? What takes place in you when you listen to it?
50:24	S: Panic. K: No. Is it?
50:27	S: Yes. There is a panic about the death, that death... a sort of fear of the death. There is a seeing… there is a sense of seeing... and then there is a fear of that death.
50:49	K: Which means, you have listened to the words... the words have awakened the fear.
51:00	S: Right.
51:02	K: But not the actuality of the fact.
51:09	S: I wouldn't say that. I think that's a little unfair.
51:13	K: I am asking you.
51:14	S: They awaken the actuality of the fact... and then there's almost… there seems to be a very quick process. There is an actuality of the fact... and there seems to be a silence... a moment of great clarity... that gives way to a kind of... feeling in the pit of the stomach where things... are dropping out and then there is a kind of...
51:42	K: Withholding. S: ...withholding. I think there is a whole movement there.
51:47	K: So, you are describing humanity.
51:50	S: Yes, I am trying. Yes, I am describing me.
51:53	K: Who are the humanity. B: All the same.
51:55	K: You are the viewer, the people who are listening.
51:58	S: Right. There is a sense of 'What will happen tomorrow?'
52:01	K: No, no. That's not the point.
52:05	S: I am telling you, that's that fear.
52:07	K: No. When thought realises as a movement... and that movement has created... all this chaos, total chaos... not just patchy, but complete disorder... when it realises that, what takes place, actually? You are not frightened... there is no fear. Listen to it carefully, there is no fear. Fear is the idea brought about by an abstraction. You understand? You have made a picture of ending... and frightened of that ending.
53:24	S: You are right. You are right. There's stop...
53:29	K: There is no fear… S: No fear, and then there's...
53:33	K: There is no fear when the actuality takes place.
53:39	S: That's right. When the actuality takes place there is silence.
53:45	K: With the fact there is no fear.
53:47	B: But as soon as the thought comes in...
53:49	K: That's right. S: That's right. Now wait, don't go away. (Laughs)
53:54	K: We have 3 minutes more. S: OK. 3 minutes.
53:58	K: Go on.
53:59	S: The fact and the actuality - no fear.
54:02	K: That's it. That's it.
54:05	S: But then the thought comes in.
54:08	K: No. Then it's no longer a fact. You can't remain with the fact.
54:27	B: Well, that's the same as to say you keep on thinking…
54:30	K: Keep on moving. B: Yes. Well, as soon as you bring thought in and it's not a fact... that's an imagination or a fantasy... which is felt to be real... but it is not so. S: Right.
54:45	B: Therefore, you are not with the fact any longer.
54:47	S: So, we are saying…
54:49	K: We have discovered something extraordinary... when you are faced with fact, there is no fear.
54:56	B: So, all fear is thought then, is that it?
54:59	K: Yes, that's right.
55:01	S: That's a big mouthful…
55:03	K: No. All thought is fear, all thought is sorrow.
55:08	B: It goes both ways, all fear is thought and all thought is fear.
55:12	K: Of course.
55:13	B: Except the kind of thought that arises with the fact alone.
55:16	S: I want to interject something right here... if we have 1 second. It seems to me that we have discovered... something quite important right here... and that is, at that actual seeing... then the instant of attention is at its peak.
55:31	K: No. Something new takes place. S: Yes.
55:36	K: Something totally, that you have never looked at or... it has never been understood or experienced, whatever it is. There is a totally different thing happening.
55:52	B: But isn't it important that we acknowledge this... in our thought, I mean in our language?
55:58	B: As we are doing now. In other words, if it happened... and we didn't acknowledge it then we are liable to fall back.
56:04	K: Of course. S: I don't get it.
56:06	B: We have to see it not only when it happens... but we have to see it when it happens... and we have to say that it happens.
56:14	S: Then are we creating a place to localise there?
56:17	K: No. What he is saying is very simple. He is saying... Does this fact, actuality take place? And can you remain with that… Can thought not move in, but remain only with that fact? Sir, it's like saying, remain totally with sorrow... not move away, not say... 'It should be, shouldn't be, how am I to get over it?'... self-pity and all the rest of it - just totally remain... with that thing, with the fact. Then you have an energy which is extraordinary.
57:15	S: Right.
57:20	K: Can you? It's time.