Krishnamurti Subtitles

Your image of yourself prevents relationship

Brockwood Park - 19 May 1976

The Transformation of Man 5

0:11 K: You know, we were
talking about...
0:15 the necessity...
0:19 of human beings changing...
0:23 and why they don't change...
0:26 why they accept
these intolerable...
0:29 conditions of human psyche.
0:34 I think we ought to go,
or approach...
0:38 the same thing from
a different angle...
0:45 who has invented
this unconscious?
0:50 S: Who has invented it?
0:59 I think the unconscious...
1:01 there is a difference between
what we call the unconscious...
1:04 and what is the unconscious.
The word is not the thing.
1:07 K: Yes, the word is not the thing.
Who has thought it up?
1:12 S: I think the history...
1:16 of the thinking about
the unconscious...
1:19 is a long and involved
process. I think it began...
1:26 K: May we ask, have
you an unconscious?
1:30 S: Have I? Again, we are into
a language problem here.
1:33 K: No.
S: Have I an unconscious?
1:37 K: Are you aware of
your unconscious?
1:40 Do you know if you
have an unconscious...
1:43 that's operating differently,
or trying to give you hints...
1:48 you know, all that,
are you aware of all that?
1:51 S: Yes. I'm aware
of an aspect of myself.
1:59 I look at it a
little differently...
2:01 I look at it that there is
an aspect of myself...
2:04 that's aware incompletely.
2:07 That's what I call
the unconscious.
2:09 It's aware of my experience...
2:13 or aware of the events
in an incomplete way.
2:17 That's what I call
the unconscious.
2:25 Now, it uses symbols and
different modes of telling...
2:27 of understanding...
2:28 in other words,
a dream where I'm...
2:32 discovering jealousy,
in the dream...
2:35 K: Quite, quite.
S: ...that I wasn't aware of.
2:38 K: But would you also give
importance, Dr. Bohm...
2:44 to a feeling that
there is such a thing?
2:47 B: Well, I don't know what you
mean by that. I think…
2:49 …there are phenomena that
there are some things...
2:52 we do whose origin we
are not aware of. We react...
2:58 we use words in an habitual way.
S: We have dreams.
3:03 B: We have dreams,
I suppose we...
3:05 K: I'm going to question all
that because I'm not sure...
3:09 S: You are not questioning
that we have dreams?
3:11 K: No. But I want to
question, or ask...
3:15 the experts, if there
is such a thing...
3:19 as the unconscious.
For me, somehow I don't think...
3:25 it has played any important
part in my life at all.
3:30 S: Well, it depends on what you
mean by the unconscious.
3:33 K: I will tell you
what I mean.
3:34 Something hidden,
something incomplete...
3:37 something that
I have to go after...
3:39 consciously or
3:41 go after and
discover it, unearth it...
3:43 explore it and expose it.
3:46 S: Right.
3:47 K: See the motive, see
the hidden intentions.
3:53 S: Right.
3:54 B: Could we make it clear that...
3:56 there are some
things people do...
3:57 where you can see they are not
aware of what they are doing...
4:00 but some things of
the nature of thought.
4:04 K: I don't quite follow.
4:05 B: For example, this Freudian
slip of the tongue, you know...
4:11 that somebody makes
a slip of the tongue...
4:13 which expresses
his will, intention.
4:15 K: Oh, yes, I didn't
mean that. Quite.
4:18 S: That would be
an unconscious...
4:20 - that's what people would
think of as the unconscious.
4:22 I think there are
two problems here...
4:24 if I can just put in a
technical statement here.
4:27 There are those people,
and there has arisen...
4:30 in the history of thinking
about the unconscious...
4:33 people who think...
4:34 that there are things, like
the unconscious is a thing...
4:37 and that there are things in
the unconscious which are there...
4:42 and must be lifted out.
Then I think...
4:44 that there is a large
group of people now...
4:46 who think of the unconscious
as areas of behaviour...
4:52 areas of response, areas of
experience that are not clear...
4:57 all the connections,
we aren't aware...
4:59 totally aware of
all that goes...
5:02 into what happened...
5:03 so that in the daytime
you might have, let's say...
5:06 an experience of stress...
5:09 like you would say, disorder,
you didn't finish...
5:12 with the experience
and at night...
5:16 you go through reworking
it in a new way.
5:19 K: Reworking.
5:20 S: So, that would be the
unconscious in operation.
5:23 You get other…
5:25 let's say, from the past...
5:27 or from previous
programmes of action.
5:30 K: I mean...
5:32 the collective unconscious,
the racial unconscious.
5:36 B: Also, let's say, somebody has
been deeply hurt in the past...
5:39 and you can see his whole
behaviour is governed by that.
5:42 But he doesn't know,
he may not know it.
5:44 K: Yes, that I understand.
5:45 S: His response is
always from the past.
5:47 K: Always, quite.
5:50 What I'm trying
to find out is...
5:57 why we have divided it...
6:00 the conscious and
the unconscious.
6:03 Or is it one unitary total
process moving?
6:09 Not hidden, not concealed...
6:15 but moving as a whole current.
6:22 And we come along,
these clever brainy...
6:27 birds come along
and split it up...
6:30 and say there is
the unconscious...
6:32 and the conscious...
6:34 the hidden, the incomplete...
6:37 the storehouse
of racial memories...
6:41 family memories,
genes, all that.
6:44 S: The reason that
happened, I think...
6:46 .is that, just partially
6:50 is the fact that
Freud and Jung...
6:52 and these people that
were seeing patients...
6:55 out of which grew so much...
6:56 of the knowledge
about the unconscious...
6:58 would see patients,
people who had...
7:01 separated it,
had fragmented off...
7:04 this movement that
you are talking about.
7:06 K: That's what I want to get at.
7:08 S: In other words, a woman who says
that she is - the whole history...
7:12 of hysteria, where patients
couldn't move their arm.
7:15 K: I know.
S: You know about that.
7:17 And then if you open
up the memories...
7:19 and then they eventually
can move their arm.
7:21 So, they put two and two together,
I know they don't think...
7:24 it worked that way but
that's the way they did it.
7:26 Or there were people who
had dual personalities.
7:29 K: What I'm trying to…
Is it an insanity...
7:34 not insanity
- is it a state of mind...
7:37 that divides everything,
that says...
7:39 there is the unconscious,
7:41 It's a process of
fragmentation also.
7:45 B: Well, wouldn't you say that...
7:47 certain material is made,
even Freud has said...
7:49 that certain material is made
unconscious by the brain...
7:53 because it's too disturbing.
K: That's what I want...
7:55 S: It's fragmented.
7:57 B: That's well known in
all schools of psychology.
7:59 S: That's what I'm saying.
That it's fragmented off...
8:02 and that then was
called the unconscious.
8:05 What is fragmented
is the unconscious.
8:08 K: I understand that.
8:09 B: Would one say that
the brain itself is...
8:13 on purpose in some sense...
8:16 holding it separate to avoid it?
S: Right.
8:19 K: Yes, avoid facing the facts.
S: That's right.
8:22 B: Yes. So that
it's not really...
8:24 separate from consciousness.
8:26 K: That's what I want
to get at. You see?
8:30 S: It's right. It isn't separate
from consciousness...
8:33 the brain has organised it
in a fragmented way.
8:37 B: Yes, but then it's a wrong
terminology to call it that.
8:39 The word 'unconscious' already
implies a separation.
8:42 K: That's it, separation.
8:43 B: To say there are two layers, for
example, the deep unconscious...
8:46 and the surface consciousness,
that structure is implied.
8:51 But now this other
notion is to say...
8:53 that structure is not
implied, but rather...
8:55 certain material wherever
it may be is simply avoided.
9:00 S: That's right. That's the
way I think about it.
9:03 K: I don't want to think
about somebody...
9:06 because he has hurt me.
9:08 That's not the unconscious,
I don't want to think about it.
9:10 S: That's right.
9:12 K: I'm conscious,
he has hurt me...
9:13 and I don't want
to think about it.
9:15 B: But a kind of paradoxical
situation arises...
9:18 because eventually...
9:19 you become so good at it...
9:20 that you don't
realise you are doing it.
9:22 I mean, that seems to happen.
K: Yes, yes.
9:25 B: People become so proficient at...
9:27 avoiding these things
that they cease...
9:29 to realise they are doing it.
S: That's right.
9:31 K: Yes.
B: It becomes habitual.
9:33 S: That's right. I think,
this is what happens.
9:36 That these kinds of
things, the hurts...
9:39 K: The wound remains.
9:41 S: The wound remains and we
forget that we have forgotten.
9:45 K: The wound remains.
9:46 B: Yes. I think, we remember
to forget!
9:50 K: Yes (Laughs).
9:51 S: We remember to forget
and the process...
9:53 actually the process
of therapy is...
9:56 helping the remembering
and the recall...
10:00 to remember you
have forgotten,
10:03 and then to understand
the connections...
10:06 of why you forgot, and then...
10:08 the thing can move in
a more holistic way...
10:11 rather than being fragmented.
10:14 K: Do you consider, or feel
that you have been hurt?
10:22 S: Yes.
10:23 K: And want to avoid it?
10:32 Or, being hurt, resist,
withdraw, isolate...
10:40 the whole picture
being the image...
10:43 of yourself being
hurt and withdrawn...
10:46 all that - do you feel
that when you are hurt?
10:50 S: Yes, I feel - how to put it…
11:00 I think...
11:03 K: I'm interested in this,
let's go into this.
11:07 S: Yes, I feel there
is definitely a move...
11:12 not to be hurt, not to be...
11:15 not to have that
image, not to have...
11:18 that whole thing changed...
11:21 because if it's
changed it seems...
11:23 to catapult into
that same experience...
11:25 that was the hurt.
This is hurt but this has...
11:29 a resonation with that
unconscious which reminds me...
11:34 I'm reminded of being hurt deeply
by this more superficial hurt.
11:40 K: I understand that.
11:43 S: So that I avoid hurt, period.
11:46 K: Can the brain have a shock?
Of course...
11:49 a biological, physical shock...
11:52 but the psychological brain,
if we can call it that...
11:58 must it be hurt?
Is that inevitable?
12:04 S: No, I don't think so.
12:06 It's only hurt with
reference to something.
12:09 K: No. I'm asking you...
12:11 Can such a psychological
brain, if I can use...
12:14 those two words, never
be hurt, under any circumstances?
12:21 Given, you know,
family life, husband...
12:25 wife, bad friends,
so-called enemies...
12:30 all that's going on around
you and never get hurt?
12:42 Because apparently this
is one of the major...
12:47 wounds in human existence
- to get hurt...
12:54 the more sensitive you are,
the more...
12:58 aware, you get more
and more hurt...
13:03 more and more withdrawn.
13:08 Is this inevitable?
13:14 S: You're asking me?
13:15 I don't think it's inevitable, but
I think it happens frequently...
13:19 more often than not. And it
seems to happen when there is...
13:28 how can I describe it...
13:30 an attachment is formed and
then the loss of the attachment.
13:35 You become important to me.
13:38 You become important to me, I like
you, or I get involved with you...
13:41 then it becomes important
to me that you don't...
13:46 do anything that
disturbs that image.
13:49 K: That is, in that relationship
between two people...
13:56 the picture that we
have of each other...
13:59 the image, that's
the cause of hurt.
14:04 B: But it also goes the other way,
that we hold those images...
14:07 because of hurt.
K: Of course.
14:09 B: Where does it start?
K: That's what I want to get at.
14:13 S: That's what I want
to get at too.
14:14 K: No, he pointed out something.
14:16 S: Right. I know he did, yes.
14:20 B: Because the past hurt...
14:21 gives a tremendous
strength to the image...
14:24 the image which helps
us to forget it - right?
14:27 S: That's right.
14:28 K: Now, is this wound
in the unconscious?
14:31 We'll use the word...
14:33 'unconscious' in quotes for the
time being - is that hidden?
14:38 S: Well, I think you are being
a little simplistic about that...
14:42 because what is
hidden is the fact that...
14:47 I have had the
event happen...
14:49 many times, it happened
with my mother...
14:50 it happened with my friends...
14:52 it's happened
before, in school...
14:55 where I cared
about somebody...
14:57 and then the image
- it's like...
14:59 you form the attachment
and then the hurt.
15:02 K: I'm not at all sure that
through attachment it comes.
15:08 S: I think, it's something...
15:10 May be it's not attachment,
maybe that's the wrong word...
15:12 but there is something
there that happens.
15:14 What happens that I form...
15:16 a relationship with you where
an image becomes important?
15:20 What you do to me
becomes important.
15:24 K: You have an image
about yourself.
15:26 S: That's right. And you are
saying that I like you...
15:31 because you are
confirming my image?
15:33 K: No, apart from like and dislike,
apart from like and dislike...
15:37 you have an image
about yourself.
15:40 I come along, put
a pin in that image.
15:44 S: No, first you come
along and confirm it.
15:46 K: No.
B: The hurt will be greater...
15:48 if you first come along
and be very friendly to me...
15:50 and confirm the image, and then
suddenly you put a pin in me.
15:53 K: Of course, of course.
15:55 B: But even somebody
who didn't confirm it...
15:57 if he puts the
pin in properly...
15:59 he can produce that hurt.
K: That's what I...
16:03 S: That's right.
That's not unconscious.
16:05 But how come,
like you said...
16:07 why did I have the image to
begin with? That's unconscious.
16:11 K: Is it unconscious? That's
what I want to get at.
16:13 Or it's so obvious...
16:16 that we don't look? You
follow what I'm saying?
16:24 S: I follow what you're saying,
yes. I'm with you on this.
16:27 K: We put it away. We say
it's hidden. I question it...
16:33 whether it's hidden at all;
it's so blatantly obvious.
16:40 S: I wonder if all the
ingredients of it are...
16:42 I tell you, I don't feel all
parts of it are obvious.
16:49 B: I think that we
hide it in one sense...
16:50 say we say that this hurt...
16:52 means that everything
is wrong with the image...
16:56 but we hide it by saying...
16:57 everything is all
right, for example.
17:00 In other words, the thing that
is obvious may be hidden...
17:04 by saying it's unimportant,
that we don't notice it.
17:08 S: Yes, we don't notice
it, but it's like...
17:10 I get the
feeling as we are...
17:11 talking, personally
I get the feeling...
17:14 there is a kind of,
I ask myself...
17:16 what is it that kind
of generates the image...
17:20 what is that hurt?
17:22 K: Ah, we will come
to that. I'm trying...
17:26 we are enquiring
into the...
17:29 whole structure
of consciousness.
17:31 S: Right. That's just what
we are enquiring into…
17:34 K: Into the nature
of consciousness.
17:39 We have broken it
up into the hidden...
17:42 and the open.
17:45 It may be that the
fragmented mind is doing that.
17:50 S: That's right.
17:54 K: And therefore
strengthening both.
18:00 K: The division grows
greater and greater.
18:05 S: The fragmented mind is...
K: ...doing this.
18:13 Now, most people have an
image about themselves...
18:17 practically everybody.
18:21 S: Practically
18:22 K: It's that image
that gets hurt.
18:28 And that image is you, and
you say, 'Well, I'm hurt'.
18:34 B: It's the same as we were
discussing this morning.
18:36 K: Yes.
18:37 B: If I say I have a pleasant
self-image, then I attribute...
18:42 the pleasure to me - right?
and say, that's real.
18:46 Then if somebody hurts me then
the pain is attributed to me...
18:51 and I say that's real too
- right?
18:53 It seems that if
you have an image...
18:55 that can give you pleasure then
it must be able to give you pain.
18:58 K: Pain, yes.
B: There is no way out of that.
19:00 K: Absolutely.
19:01 S: The image tends to
be self-perpetuating...
19:03 like you were saying
about difficult relation.
19:05 B: I think people hope that the
image will give them pleasure.
19:08 K: Pleasure only.
19:09 B: Only pleasure, but
the very mechanism...
19:11 that makes pleasure possible...
19:13 makes pain possible because,
the pleasure comes if I say...
19:16 'I think I'm good' and that
'I' is also sensed to be real...
19:21 which makes that
goodness real...
19:24 but then if somebody
comes along...
19:25 and says, 'You're no good,
you're stupid' and so on...
19:28 then that too is real, and
therefore very significant.
19:31 It makes it hurt. Right?
19:34 K: The image brings both
pleasure and pain.
19:37 B: Yes.
19:39 S: Right.
19:40 K: Put it very, very simply.
19:43 B: I think people would
hope for an image...
19:45 that would bring only pleasure,
but it can't be done.
19:47 S: People do hope, there
is no question about it.
19:49 People not only
hope for the image...
19:52 but they invest
all their interest...
19:55 in their image, they
see themselves as…
19:59 they say, 'I should
not be this way...
20:03 because I'm
in fact the image'.
20:05 So that they go both
ways at the same time.
20:07 That's the most curious thing
about the mind. I'm the image...
20:10 but when I discover
that I'm not the image...
20:13 then I should be that way...
20:14 because I really am that.
So it works both ways.
20:18 B: But the image, I think that
if you make the self-image...
20:25 and you get what's
implied in that;
20:27 that is to say everything
depends on...
20:29 having the self image right.
In other words...
20:32 S: Right, everything.
20:33 B: The value of everything depends
on this self image being right.
20:37 So, if somebody shows it's wrong,
therefore everything...
20:43 is no good,
everything is wrong.
20:46 K: We are always giving
new shape to the image.
20:50 B: But I think that this image
means everything.
20:52 So it gives it tremendous power.
20:54 S: The entire personality
is directed...
20:59 to the achievement
of this image.
21:01 In other words, everything
else takes second place.
21:04 K: Are you aware of this?
S: Yes, I'm aware of it.
21:08 K: What is the beginning of this?
21:11 Please, just let
me summarise first.
21:14 Every human being practically...
21:16 has an image about himself...
21:18 of which he's unconscious,
or not aware.
21:21 S: Usually it's some
sort of idealised...
21:24 K: Idealised, or not idealised,
it's an image.
21:27 S: Right. It's an image,
it's idealised...
21:30 and they must have it.
21:33 K: They have it.
B: They have it.
21:34 S: They must get all their actions
towards 'must have it'.
21:38 In other words, to accomplish it,
to realise it.
21:40 B: One feels one's whole life
depends on the image.
21:43 K: Yes.
21:44 S: Depression is
when I don't have it.
21:47 K: We will come to that.
21:51 Then the next question,
how does it come into being?
21:58 S: I think it comes into being when
as children there is this hurt...
22:08 and there is the feeling
that there is no other way...
22:12 in which this hurt can
be assuaged or relieved.
22:18 It works in the
family in some way.
22:21 You are my father and...
22:25 I understand through
my watching you that...
22:29 if I'm smart
you will like me.
22:34 K: Quite.
22:35 S: I learn that very quickly.
22:37 So I'm going to make
sure I get that love...
22:40 so I'm going to go
from here to there.
22:42 I'm going to become that.
22:44 K: That's all very simple.
22:45 But I'm asking the
beginning of it.
22:50 The origin of making
images about oneself.
22:54 B: If I had no image at all...
22:56 then I would never
get into that, would I?
22:58 K: That's what I want to get at.
23:00 S: If I never made images.
23:01 B: If I never made
any image at all...
23:02 no matter what
my father did...
23:04 that would have
no effect, would it?
23:07 S: That's the question.
K: This is very important.
23:10 B: I'm saying may be the child
can't do it, but suppose so.
23:12 K: I'm not sure,
I'm not at all sure.
23:14 B: Perhaps he can, but at least
under ordinary conditions...
23:17 he doesn't manage to do it.
23:19 S: You are suggesting
that the child...
23:21 already has an image
that it has been hurt.
23:23 K: Ah, no. I don't know.
We are asking.
23:27 B: But suppose there were a child
who made no images of himself.
23:32 S: OK, let's assume
he has no image.
23:34 B: Then he cannot get hurt.
23:35 K: He can't be hurt.
23:37 S: Now, you see, I think
you're in very hot water...
23:41 psychologically
because a child...
23:44 K: No, we said 'suppose'.
S: Suppose.
23:48 B: Not the actual
child, but rather...
23:50 suppose there were a child...
23:52 who didn't make an image of
himself, so he didn't depend...
23:55 on that image for everything.
23:57 The child you talk
about depended...
23:58 on the image that
his father loves him.
24:02 And therefore
everything goes...
24:03 when his father
doesn't love him...
24:05 everything has gone. Right?
S: Right.
24:07 B: Therefore he's hurt.
S: That's right.
24:09 B: But if he has no image that he
must have his father love him...
24:14 then he will just
watch his father.
24:17 S: The child who is
watching his father...
24:19 Let's say, let's look at it...
24:21 a little more pragmatically,
here is the child...
24:24 and he's actually hurt.
24:26 B: But wait, he can't be
hurt without the image.
24:29 S: Well, that's...
B: What's going to get hurt?
24:31 K: There is no… (laughs)
24:34 It's like putting
a pin into the air!
24:36 S: No, wait a second, I'm
not going to let you guys...
24:38 get away with this! (Laughter)
24:41 Here you have this child,
very vulnerable...
24:44 in the sense that he needs
physiological support.
24:48 He has enormous tensions.
24:51 K: Sir, agreed to all that.
Such a child has an image.
24:57 S: No, no image. He's simply not
being biologically supported.
25:02 K: No. Eh?
25:06 B: Well, he may make
an image of the fact...
25:08 that he's not biologically
25:11 We have to get the
difference between...
25:13 the actual fact that
happens biologically...
25:15 and what he thinks
of it. Right?
25:17 I have seen a child sometimes
dropped suddenly...
25:20 and he really goes to pieces...
25:22 not because he was dropped very
far but because that sense of...
25:25 K: Loss, insecurity.
25:27 B: from
his mother was gone.
25:29 It seemed that everything
had gone.
25:31 And he was totally disorganised
and screaming, but he dropped...
25:34 only about this far. But...
25:36 the point is
he had an image...
25:38 of the kind of security he was
going to get from his mother.
25:42 S: That's the way the
nervous systems works.
25:44 B: Well, that's the question,
the thing we are discussing...
25:46 is it necessary
to work that way?
25:48 Or is this the result
of conditioning?
25:50 K: Yes.
S: Yes, I would say yes.
25:53 K: This is an important question.
S: Oh, terribly important.
25:57 K: Because when you've watched...
26:00 been in America
or in this country...
26:02 children are running
away from their parents...
26:05 thousands are running away.
26:09 The parents seem to have
no control over them.
26:13 They don't obey...
26:14 they don't listen, they don't
- you follow? They are wild.
26:18 S: Yes.
26:20 K: And the parents
feel terribly hurt.
26:23 I saw on the TV what
is happening in America.
26:31 And the woman was in tears
- you follow?
26:37 She said 'I'm his mother...
26:38 he doesn't treat me as a
mother, he just orders me...
26:42 give me a bottle of milk',
and all the rest of it.
26:47 And he has run away
half a dozen times.
26:52 And this is growing...
26:53 this separation
between the parents...
26:55 and the children is growing
all over the world.
26:59 They have no relationship...
27:01 between themselves,
between each other.
27:03 So, what is the
cause of all this?
27:08 apart from sociological,
27:12 pressures and all that...
27:13 which makes the mother go and
work and leave the child alone...
27:17 and he plays... all that,
we take that for granted...
27:21 but much deeper than that?
27:28 Is it the parents have an
image about themselves...
27:31 and the parents insist...
27:33 in creating an image
in the children?
27:38 S: I see what you are saying.
27:40 K: And the child refuses
to have that image...
27:44 but he has his own image.
27:48 So the battle is on.
27:50 S: That's very much what
I'm saying when I say...
27:52 that initially the
hurt of the child...
27:54 K: We haven't come to the hurt yet.
27:57 S: But that's where I'm trying
to get at, what is in that...
28:00 initial relationship?
28:02 What is the initial relationship
between child...
28:05 K: I doubt if they
have any relation.
28:07 That's what I'm
trying to point out.
28:09 S: I agree with you.
28:10 There is something wrong
with the relationship.
28:13 They have a relationship but
it's a wrong relationship.
28:18 K: Have they a relationship?
S: They have a...
28:22 K: Young people get married, or
not married. They have a child...
28:27 by mistake or intentionally.
The young people...
28:35 they are children
28:38 they haven't understood
the universe...
28:40 cosmos, order or chaos,
they just have this child.
28:46 S: Right.
That's what happens.
28:48 K: And they play with it for
a year or 2 and they say...
28:52 'For god's sake I'm fed
up with this child'...
28:55 .and look elsewhere.
28:59 And the child feels left, lost.
S: That's right.
29:04 K: And he needs security, from
the beginning he needs security.
29:10 S: Right.
29:11 K: Which the parents cannot give,
or are incapable of giving...
29:16 psychological security,
the sense of...
29:18 'You are my child, I love you...
29:19 I'll look after you,
I'll see that throughout life...
29:22 you behave properly'
- care.
29:24 They haven't got
that, that feeling.
29:26 S: Right.
29:28 K: They are bored with it
after a couple of years.
29:32 S: That's right.
29:34 K: Right?
S: Yes.
29:37 K: Is it that they have
no relationship...
29:39 right from the beginning...
29:40 neither the husband nor
the wife, or boy or girl?
29:44 It's only a sexual relationship...
29:49 the pleasure relationship.
29:55 In accepting that they won't
accept the pain principle...
30:01 involved in the
pleasure principle.
30:05 S: That's right. They won't,
and not only that...
30:08 they won't let the
child go through that.
30:11 K: The child is going through that.
30:13 S: Yes, but they do
things that they...
30:16 don't let the child
have the pleasure...
30:19 that goes all the way...
30:20 nor do they let the
child have the pain...
30:23 K: So what I'm trying to see is...
30:27 that there is actually
no relationship at all...
30:32 except biological, sexual,
sensory relationship.
30:40 S: Yes. OK.
30:42 K: I'm questioning it...
30:44 I'm not saying it is so,
I'm questioning it.
30:47 S: I don't think it's so. I think
that they have a relationship...
30:51 but it's a wrong relationship,
that there are all kinds of...
30:55 K: There is no wrong
30:56 it's a relationship,
or no relationship.
31:01 S: Well, then we will have to
say they have a relationship.
31:03 Now we will have to
understand the relationship.
31:06 But I think that most parents...
31:09 have a relationship
with their child.
31:13 B: Wouldn't you say it's the image
that's related? Suppose...
31:16 the parent and child have
images of each other...
31:19 and the relationship is
governed by those images...
31:23 the question is whether
that's actually...
31:25 a relationship or
not, or whether...
31:27 it's some sort of
fantasy of relationship.
31:30 K: A fanciful relationship.
B: Yes.
31:33 K: Sir, you have children...
31:34 - forgive me if
I come back to you...
31:36 Have you any
relationship with them?
31:38 In the real sense of that word.
31:41 S: Yes. In the real sense, yes.
31:45 K: That means that you have
no image about yourself.
31:49 S: Right.
31:52 K: And you are not imposing
an image on them.
31:55 S: That's right.
31:56 K: And the society is not
imposing an image on them.
32:00 S: There are moments like that.
32:02 K: Ah no, that's not good enough.
32:04 - like a rotten egg! (Laughs)
32:06 S: This is an important point.
32:08 B: If it's moments, it's not so.
32:10 It's like saying a
person who is hurt...
32:11 has moments when he's not hurt,
but it's sitting there...
32:14 waiting to explode when
something happens.
32:16 K: yes.
32:18 B: So he can't go very far.
32:19 It's like somebody
who is tied to a rope...
32:22 as soon as he reaches the
limits of that rope he's stuck.
32:24 S: That's right.
32:26 B: So you could say,
I'm related as long...
32:28 as certain things
are all right...
32:31 but then beyond that point
it sort of blows up.
32:34 You see what I'm driving at?
S: I see what you are driving at.
32:36 B: That mechanism is
inside there, buried...
32:39 so that it dominates
you potentially.
32:42 S: In fact what you
just said is fact.
32:46 I verify that that's what
happens. In other words...
32:50 it seems that there are...
but it does seem...
32:52 that there are moments
in which they are...
32:55 B: Well, it's like a man who is
tied to a rope and he says...
32:57 there are moments
when I can move...
32:59 wherever I like, but
I can't really because...
33:01 if I keep on moving I'm
bound to come to the end.
33:04 S: That does seem to be
what happens, in fact...
33:08 there is a reverberation
in which there is yank-back.
33:11 B: Yes. Either I come to
the end of the cord...
33:13 or else something yanks
the cord and then...
33:15 - but the person
who is on the cord...
33:17 is really not free, ever.
33:20 S: That's true, I mean,
I think that's true.
33:24 B: In the same sense, the
person who has the image...
33:27 is not really related
ever, you see.
33:29 K: That's just the whole point.
33:33 You can play with it.
33:36 You can play with the verbal…
33:38 But actually you
have no relationship.
33:43 S: You have no relationship
as long as it's the image.
33:48 K: As long as you have
an image about yourself...
33:51 you have no relationship
with another.
34:00 This is a tremendous revelation
- you follow?
34:02 It's not just an
intellectual statement.
34:14 S: Let me share with you
something, I resent this…
34:17 K: I see that.
S: You see that.
34:19 I mean, I get rather
angry with you.
34:22 (Laughter) There is a real...
34:25 and we have seen
this in other places.
34:27 B: It always happens in
analysis, doesn't it?
34:30 S: It happens in analysis.
34:32 But I was thinking we had
psychotherapy meetings...
34:34 in the meeting with the
psychotherapists, this came up.
34:36 There is a tremendous
resentment to say...
34:40 - because I have the
memory of times...
34:42 when I do have what I
think is a relationship...
34:44 yet I must be honest
with you and say...
34:47 that after such
34:50 there inevitably seems
to be this yank-back.
34:52 B: The yanking of the cord.
34:54 S: So I must, I mean…
35:02 There is that. There is no
question that the image...
35:06 - there is a place...
35:08 where you say you have a
relationship with somebody...
35:10 but you will go just so far.
B: Yes.
35:12 S: And that's when
the image comes in.
35:14 B: Right. But then really...
35:15 the image controls
it all the time...
35:17 because the image
is the dominant factor.
35:19 If you once pass that point...
35:21 no matter what happens,
the image takes over.
35:23 S: That's right. It's like
that stuff of René Thom's
35:28 B: Yes, it goes…
S: It goes right down.
35:31 K: So, the image gets hurt.
35:36 And the child...
35:41 do you impose an
image on the child?
35:45 You are bound to, because
you have an image.
35:48 S: You are trying to.
K: No.
35:49 B: You have to.
35:51 S: Well, you are working at it
and the child picks it up...
35:53 or he doesn't pick it up.
35:55 K: No, no. Because you have
an image about yourself...
35:57 you are bound to create
an image in the child.
36:01 S: That's right.
36:03 K: Ah, sir. You follow,
you have discovered?
36:06 S: Yes.
36:11 K: And society is doing
this to all of us.
36:14 B: So you say the child is picking
up an image just naturally...
36:18 as it were, quietly and
then suddenly it gets hurt.
36:21 K: Hurt. That's right.
36:22 B: So, the hurt has been
prepared and preceded...
36:24 by this steady process
of building an image.
36:27 S: Right. Well, there is
evidence, for instance...
36:31 we treat boys differently
than the way we treat girls.
36:33 K: Look at it, don't verbalise
it too quickly.
36:38 B: If the steady process of
building an image didn't occur...
36:42 then there would be no basis,
no structure to get hurt.
36:50 In other words, the
pain is due entirely...
36:54 to some psychological
36:56 some thought
which is attributed...
36:59 to me in saying
'I'm suffering this pain'...
37:03 Whereas I was previously...
37:05 enjoying the pleasure of saying
'My father loves me...
37:08 I'm doing what he wants.'
Now comes the pain...
37:11 'I'm not doing what he wants,
he doesn't love me'.
37:15 K: Simple. Yes.
37:16 S: But what about the initial
hurts? I mean the child…
37:20 K: No, if you once...
37:22 B: I think, we have gone
beyond that point.
37:24 K: Beyond that point.
37:25 S: I don't think we
touched on the fact...
37:27 of the biological
37:29 of the child feeling neglected.
37:37 B: Well, that's still
- oh you mean -
37:41 If the child is neglected...
37:43 I think that he must pick up
an image in that very process.
37:47 K: Of course. If you admit, once
you admit, see the reality...
37:51 that as long as the parents
have an image about themselves...
37:55 they are bound to give that
image to the child, an image.
37:58 B: It's the image that makes
the parent neglect the child.
38:02 S: Well, you're right there.
K: It's right.
38:05 S: There is no question as long as
the parent is an image-maker...
38:10 and has an image, then
he can't see the child.
38:17 K: And therefore gives
an image to the child.
38:20 S: Right. You condition the
child to be into something.
38:23 K: Yes.
38:24 B: And at first perhaps through
pleasure, then he will get hurt.
38:27 But if he begins
by neglecting him...
38:29 I think the process
of neglect...
38:31 is also the result
of an image and...
38:32 he must communicate
an image to the child...
38:34 as he neglects the child.
S: Which is neglect.
38:36 B: Yes, that neglect is the image
which he communicates.
38:39 K: And also the parents are
bound to neglect if they have...
38:42 an image about themselves.
B: Yes.
38:44 S: That's right. They must.
K: It's inevitable.
38:47 S: Because they are fragmenting
rather than seeing the whole.
38:51 B: Yes, the child
will get the image...
38:53 that he doesn't
matter to his parents.
38:55 S: Except in that fragment.
38:57 B: In the fragment
they like and so on.
38:58 S: That's right. So
if you are this way...
39:01 I'm with you, if you
are not that way...
39:04 K: But you see, society is doing
this to every human being.
39:11 Church is doing it; churches,
religions, politics, everything...
39:15 culture around us
is creating this image.
39:22 S: That's right.
39:24 K: And that image gets hurt,
and all the rest of it.
39:27 Now, the next question is...
39:30 is one aware of all this...
39:38 which is part of
our consciousness?
39:44 The content of consciousness
makes up consciousness.
39:48 Right? That's clear.
39:50 S: Right.
39:52 K: So, one of the contents is
the image-making, or may be...
39:57 the major machinery
that's operating...
40:04 the major dynamo,
the major movement.
40:13 Being hurt, which every
human being is...
40:20 Can that hurt be healed,
and never be hurt again?
40:27 Can a human mind which
has accepted the image...
40:33 which creates the image, put
away the image completely...
40:41 and never be hurt.
And therefore...
40:46 in consciousness,
a great part of it...
40:54 is empty...
40:59 it has no content. I wonder...
41:11 S: Can it?
41:23 I really don't know
the answer to that.
41:26 I know the answer only
that I believe you could...
41:33 K: Who is the image-maker?
41:37 What is the machinery
or the process...
41:40 that's making images?
I may get rid of one image...
41:45 and take on another,
I'm a Catholic...
41:47 I'm a Protestant,
I'm a Hindu...
41:49 I'm a Zen monk,
I'm this, I'm that.
41:51 You follow?
They are all images.
41:53 S: Right.
41:59 Who is the image-maker?
42:07 K: After all, if there is
an image of that kind...
42:11 how can you have
love in all this?
42:16 S: We don't have
an abundance of it.
42:18 K: We don't have it!
42:20 S: That's right.
42:26 We have got a lot of images.
That's why I say, I don't know.
42:29 I know about image-making.
42:31 K: It's terrible, sir.
- You follow?
42:34 S: Right. I know about
image-making and I see it.
42:37 Even as you are
talking about it...
42:39 I can see it there and
the feeling is one of...
42:43 it's like a map, you
know where you are at...
42:47 because if I don't make this
image I will make another.
42:50 K: Of course.
42:51 S: If you don't make this
one you will make another.
42:54 K: We are saying, is it possible
to stop the machinery...
43:00 that is producing the images?
43:07 And what is the machinery?
43:12 Is it wanting to be somebody?
43:16 S: Yes. It's wanting
to be somebody...
43:18 it's wanting to know where...
43:20 wanting to have, to reduce,
somehow or other...
43:26 it seems to be wanting
to handle the feeling...
43:29 that if I don't have it
I don't know where I'm at.
43:31 K: Being at a loss?
S: Yes.
43:35 K: You see how clever. You see,
being at… You follow?
43:42 The feeling that you are at a
loss, not to rely on anything...
43:49 not to have any support,
breeds more disorder.
43:58 S: Right.
44:00 B: That's one of the images...
44:02 that was communicated
to it as a child...
44:04 to say that if you don't
have an image of yourself...
44:07 you don't know
what to do at all.
44:09 You don't know
what your parents...
44:11 are going to do
if you start acting...
44:13 without an image. (Laughs)
You may do something...
44:16 and they will just
simply be horrified.
44:18 S: That's right.
44:22 K: The image is the product
of thought. Right?
44:27 S: It's organised.
44:29 K: Yes, a product of thought.
44:31 It may go through various
forms of pressures...
44:35 and all the rest of it, a
great deal of conveyor belt...
44:40 and at the end
produces an image.
44:43 S: Right. No question.
44:46 I agree with you there.
It's definitely...
44:51 the product of thought and that
thought seems to be like...
44:56 the immediate action in
knowing where you are at;
45:00 or in trying to know
where you are at.
45:02 It's like there is a space.
45:04 K: So, can the machinery stop?
45:11 K: Can thought which
produces these images...
45:15 which destroys
all relationship...
45:19 and therefore no love - ah,
not verbally, actually no love!
45:24 Don't say ' Yes, I love my...'
- That's not...
45:28 When a man who has an
image about himself...
45:31 says 'I love my husband',
or wife, or my children...
45:35 it's just sentiment,
45:38 fanciful emotionalism.
45:40 S: Right.
45:44 K: So, as it is now there
is no love in the world.
45:51 There is no sense of
real caring for somebody.
45:58 S: That's true. People don't.
46:02 K: The more affluent
the worse it becomes.
46:05 Not that the poor have this.
46:07 I don't mean that. Poor people
haven't got this either.
46:13 They are after filling
their stomachs...
46:16 and clothes and
work, work, work.
46:20 B: Still they have
got lots of images.
46:22 K: Of course. I said...
46:23 both the rich and the
poor have these images...
46:26 including Brezhnev and
Sakharov, or whoever it is.
46:36 And these are the people who
are correcting the world. Right?
46:43 Who say 'well, this must...'
you follow?
46:46 They are the ordering
of the universe. (Laughs)
46:55 So, I ask myself, can
this image-making stop?
47:04 Stop, not occasionally - stop it.
47:12 Because then I don't
know what love means...
47:17 I don't know how
to care for somebody.
47:26 And I think that's what is
happening in the world...
47:31 because children are really
lost souls, lost human beings.
47:37 I have met so many, hundreds
of them now, all over the world.
47:42 They are really a lost generation.
You understand, sir?
47:45 As the older people
are a lost generation.
47:55 So, what is a human being to do?
48:02 What is the right
action in relationship?
48:08 Can there be right
action in relationship...
48:11 as long as you have an image?
S: No.
48:14 K: Ah! No sir, this is a tremendous
thing - you follow?
48:20 S: That's why I was wondering.
48:23 It seemed to me you
made a jump there.
48:25 You said, all we know
somehow or other...
48:31 is images, and image-making,
and thought.
48:34 That's all we know.
48:36 K: But we've never
said 'can it stop'.
48:40 S: We've never said
'can it stop', that's right.
48:42 K: We've never said, for god's
sake, if it doesn't stop...
48:45 we are going to
destroy each other.
48:48 B: You could say that now the
notion that it might stop...
48:51 is something more that we know,
that we didn't know before.
48:53 In other words...
48:55 K: It becomes another piece
of knowledge. (Laughs)
48:58 B: But I was trying to say that
when you say 'all we know'...
49:02 it's the same thing as before.
I feel that a block comes in.
49:04 S: You are back to that. Right.
49:06 B: In other words, it's not much
use to say, 'all we know'.
49:11 S: Because he said, can it stop
- that's more than...
49:13 B: If you say 'that's all we know'
then it can never stop.
49:17 K: He's objecting to your
use of 'all'. (Laughs)
49:21 S: I'm grateful for that.
49:22 B: That's what's one of
the factors blocking it.
49:26 S: Well, if we come down to it...
49:28 what do we do with that
question, 'can it stop?'
49:32 There we are, we have this
question 'can it stop'.
49:36 K: I put that question to you.
Do you listen to it?
49:40 S: I listen. Right.
K: Ah, do you listen?
49:43 S: It stops for a...
49:45 K: No, no. I'm not interested
whether it stops.
49:47 Do you listen to a statement
'can it stop'?
49:53 We now examined,
analysed, or examined...
49:57 this whole process
of image-making...
49:59 the result of it...
50:01 the misery, the confusion,
the appalling things...
50:03 that are going on,
the Arab has his image...
50:06 the Jew, the Hindu,
the Muslim...
50:09 the Christian, the non -
you follow? - the communist.
50:11 There's this tremendous
division of images...
50:16 symbols, all the rest of it.
50:20 If that doesn't stop...
50:22 you are going to have
such a chaotic world.
50:30 I see this, not as
an abstraction...
50:33 as an actuality
as that flower.
50:38 K: And I feel, as a human
being, what am I to do?
50:46 Because I, personally...
50:48 I have no image about this.
50:51 I really mean, I have no
image about myself.
50:56 a conclusion, a concept,
an ideal, all these are images.
51:01 I have none!
51:04 And I say to myself
'what can I do'.
51:07 When everybody around me...
51:09 is building images, and so
destroying this lovely earth...
51:18 where we are meant
to live happily...
51:21 in human relationship,
and look at the heavens...
51:24 and be happy about it.
51:33 So, what is the right
action for a man...
51:38 who has an image? Or
there is no right action?
51:41 S: Let me turn it back.
51:43 What happens with you when
I say to you 'can it stop'?
51:48 K: I say, of course.
51:52 It's very simple to me.
Of course it can stop.
52:01 You don't ask me
the next question...
52:05 How do you do it?
How does it come about?
52:08 S: No, I want to just
listen for a minute...
52:10 when you say
'Yes, of course'.
52:18 OK. Now, how do
you think it can?
52:20 K: Five minutes, we
have only five minutes.
52:22 S: OK. Well, let's just touch...
How can it stop?
52:29 I have no…
52:32 Let me put it to you straight.
52:33 Let's see if I can
get it straight.
52:36 I have absolutely no
evidence that it can.
52:39 No experience that it can.
52:41 K: I don't want evidence.
52:43 S: You don't want any evidence.
52:44 K: I don't want somebody's
52:47 S: Or experience.
52:48 K: Because they are
based on images.
52:51 S: Right.
52:52 K: Future image, or past
image, or living image.
52:58 So, I say 'can it stop'.
53:03 I say it can, definitely.
53:08 It's not just a verbal
statement to amuse you.
53:12 To me this is tremendously
53:15 S: I think we agree...
53:17 that it's tremendously
important, but how?
53:20 K: Not 'how'. Then you
enter into the question...
53:23 of systems,
mechanical process...
53:28 which is part of
our image-making.
53:32 If I tell you how,
then you say...
53:34 'Tell me the system, the
method, the practice...
53:36 I'll do it every day...
53:38 and I'll get the new image'.
53:40 S: Yes.
53:44 K: Now, I see the fact that's
going on in the world.
53:48 S: I have got it.
I'm with you, yes.
53:51 K: Fact. Not my reactions to it...
53:55 not my romantic,
fanciful theories about...
53:58 what it should not be.
It is a fact...
54:01 that as long as
there are images...
54:07 there's not going to
be peace in the world...
54:10 no love in the world...
54:12 whether the Christ image, or
the Buddha image or the Muslim.
54:15 there won't be
peace in the world.
54:19 I see it as a fact.
54:24 I remain with that fact.
54:33 That's all - finished.
54:39 As this morning we said...
54:42 if one remains with the fact
there is a transformation.
55:15 Which is, not to let the… not...
55:20 thought begins to
interfere with the fact.
55:24 B: The same as the morning,
to say more images come in.
55:27 K: More images come in.
55:34 So, our consciousness is
filled with these images.
55:39 S: Yes, that's true.
55:40 K: I'm a Hindu, Brahmin,
I'm my tradition,
55:44 I'm better than anybody else.
55:47 I'm the chosen people,
I'm the Aryan - you follow?
55:53 I'm the only Englishman...
55:56 all that is crowding
my consciousness.
56:00 B: When you say...
56:02 to remain with the fact, one of
the images that may come in is...
56:04 'that's impossible,
that can never be done'.
56:07 K: Yes, that is another image.
56:09 B: In other words, if the mind
could stay with that fact...
56:12 with no comment whatsoever.
56:16 S: Well, the thing that...
56:17 comes through to me
when you say that...
56:20 is that when you say,
'remain with the fact'...
56:24 you are really calling
for an action right there.
56:31 To really remain with it is that
the action of perception is there.
56:37 K: Sir, you don't...
Why do you make it so much...
56:40 It's round you!
56:43 You are involved in it.
56:44 S: But that's different
from remaining with it.
56:46 K: Remain with that!
S: To really see it.
56:49 K: Yes, that's all.
56:53 S: You know how that feels?
It feels like something...
57:00 carries forward...
57:03 because we are
always running away.
57:06 K: So, our consciousness
is this image...
57:10 conclusions, ideas, all that.
57:13 S: Always running away.
57:15 K: Filling, filling, and that's
the essence of the image.
57:27 If there is no image-making
then what is consciousness?
57:34 That's quite a different thing.
57:36 B: You think we can
discuss that next time?