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BR76CTM6 - Any form of image prevents the beauty of relationship
Brockwood Park, UK - 20 May 1976
The Transformation of Man 6



0:07 K: I would like to ask you, Dr. Bohm. As you are such a well-known... physicist and scientist... practically every schoolboy knows about you... throughout the world... I would like to ask... after all these 4 or 5 dialogues that we've had... What will change man? What will bring about a radical transformation... in the total consciousness of human beings?
0:55 B: I don't know that the scientific background is going to be... very relevant to that question.
1:02 K: Would be?

B: I said, it's not clear that... the scientific background must be relevant to that question.
1:07 K: No, probably not, but... after we've talked considerably at length... not only now but in the previous years... what is the energy... I'm using 'energy' not in any... scientific sense, just ordinary sense... the vitality, the energy, the drive... which is seems to be lacking? After all, if I listen to you as a viewer, to the 3 of us... I would say 'Yes, it's all very well for these philosophers... or these scientists, experts, but it's outside my field. It's too far away. Bring it nearer. Bring it much closer so that I can deal with my life'.
2:02 B: I think at the end of the last discussion we were touching... on one point of that nature... because we were discussing images.
2:12 K: Images, yes.
2:14 B: And the self-image. And... questioning whether we've to have images at all.
2:22 K: Of course, we went into that. But you see, I want, as a viewer... totally outside, listening to you... for the first time, the three of you... I say 'Look, how does it touch my life? It's all so vague... and uncertain and... needs a great deal of thinking, which I'm unwilling to do'. You follow? 'So, please tell me in a few words, or at length... what am I to do with my life. Where am I to touch it? Where am I to break it down? From where am I to look at it? I've hardly any time... I go to the office; I go to the factory... I've got so many things to do, children, wife nagging, poverty'. The whole structure of misery, and you sit there, you three... and talk about something which 'c'est ne me touche pas'... that doesn't touch me in the least'. So, could we bring it down... to brass tacks as it were, where I can grapple with it... as an ordinary human being?
4:02 B: Could we consider the problems arising in daily relationship... as the starting point?

K: That's the essence, isn't it? I was going to begin with that. My relationship with human beings... is in the office, in the factory, on a golf course.
4:34 B: Or at home.
4:36 K: Or at home. And at home it's pretty... you know, a routine, sex, children... if I've children, if I want children... and the constant battle, battle, battle all my life. Insulted, wounded, hurt... everything is going on in me and around me.
5:02 B: Yes, there is continual disappointment.
5:04 K: Continual disappointment, continual hope... desire to be more successful, more money... more, more, more of everything. Now... How am I to alter, change... my relationship? What is the... the source of my relationship? If we could tackle that a little bit this morning... and go on to what we were discussing... which is really very important, which is not to have an image at all.
5:49 B: Yes. But it seems that as we were discussing yesterday... we tend to be related almost always through the image.
5:54 K: Through the image, that's right.
5:56 B: Say, I've an image of myself and of you... as you should be in relation to me. And then that gets disappointed and hurt and so on.
6:06 K: But how am I to change that image? How am I to break it down? I know after you have talked to me as an ordinary human being... I see very well I've got an image... and it has been put together... constructed through generations. And I've got it. I am fairly intelligent... I'm fairly aware of myself and I see I've got it. How am I to break it down?
6:39 B: The point, as I see it, is that... I've got to be aware of that image... to watch it as it moves.
6:47 K: So, am I to watch it… - I'm taking the opposite... Am I to watch it in the office?

B: Yes.
6:59 K: In the factory, at home, at the golf club... because in all these areas are my relationships.
7:06 B: Yes. I would say, I've to watch it on all those places... and also when I'm not there.
7:12 K: When I'm not there. So, I've to watch it all the time, in fact.
7:16 B: Yes.
7:17 K: Now, am I capable of it? Have I got... the energy, because my wife wants sex... I don't want it, or I enjoy sex, I go through all kinds of miseries... and at the end of the day I've hardly… I crawl into bed. And you say I must have energy. So, I must realise... relationship is the greatest importance.
7:44 B: Yes.
7:45 K: Therefore I'm willing to give up certain wastage of energies.
7:52 B: What kind of wastage?
7:57 K: Drink. Smoke, useless chatter. Endless crawling from pub to pub.
8:06 B: That would be the beginning anyway.
8:08 K: That would be the beginning. But you see, I want all those plus more. You follow?
8:17 B: But if I can see that everything depends on this...
8:20 K: Of course.
8:21 B: ...then I won't go to the pub, if I see that that interferes.
8:25 K: So, as an ordinary human being, I must realise... the greatest importance is to have right relationship.
8:34 B: Yes. It would be good if we could say... what happens when we don't have it.
8:41 K: Oh, when I don't have it, of course.
8:44 B: Then everything goes to pieces.
8:45 K: Everything goes to pieces; Not only everything goes to pieces... I create such havoc around me. So, can I... by putting aside smoke, drink, pubs... and the endless chatter about... this or that, will I gather that energy?
9:12 B: Well, that's the beginning.
9:14 K: I'm asking, will I gather that energy which will help me... to face the picture which I have, the image which I have?
9:25 B: Yes, it means going also ambition... and many other things.
9:30 K: Of course. You see, I begin by obvious things... like smoke, drink, pub and all the rest.
9:36 S: Let me just stop you here. Suppose my image is that you're going to do it for me... and my real image is that I can't do it for myself.
9:52 K: Oh, that's one of our favourite conditionings... that I can't do it myself... therefore I must go to somebody to help me.
10:03 S: Or I go to the pub, because I see I can't do it for myself... so I create the condition... several things come from my going to the pub... 1 is, I'm in despair because... I can't do it for myself so I'm going to... obliterate myself through drink... so I no longer feel this pain.
10:23 B: At least for the moment.
10:24 S: Right. And also 2... I'm proving to myself that my image that... I can't do it for myself is right. After all, look at me, I'm on the ground, in the gutter! You're going to deny that? 2nd of all... by treating myself in such a way... I'm going to prove to you that I can't do it myself. May be I'll get you to do it for me.
10:44 K: I think sir, we don't realise, any of us... the utter and absolute importance... of right relationship. I don't think we realise it.
10:59 S: I agree with you, we don't.
11:00 K: With my wife, with my neighbour, in the office... wherever I am... I don't think we realise - with nature also... a relationship which is easy... quiet, full, rich, happy... the beauty of it, the harmony of it. We don't realise that. Now, can we tell the ordinary viewer, the listener... the great importance of that?
11:31 S: Let's try. How can we communicate to somebody the value... of a right relationship? You are my wife. You are whining, you are nagging me. Right? You think that I should be doing... something for you when I'm tired... and don't feel like doing anything for you.
11:49 K: I know. Go to a party.
11:50 S: Right. 'Let's go to the party... you never take me out'.
11:55 K: Yes. (Laughs)
11:58 S: Right? 'You never take me anywhere'.
12:00 B: Yes, making images.
12:02 K: Yes, so, how are you... who realise the importance of relationship... to deal with me? How are you to deal? No, I mean, we've got this problem in life!
12:20 B: I think it should be very clear that nobody can do it for me. Whatever somebody else does, it won't reflect my relationship.
12:29 S: How are you going to make that clear to somebody?
12:32 B: But isn't it obvious?
12:33 S: It's not obvious. I feel very strongly - I'm the viewer... I feel very strongly that you ought to be doing it for me. My mother never did it for me, somebody has got to do it for me.
12:43 B: But, isn't it obvious that it can't be done? I'm saying that that's just a delusion because... whatever you do, I will be... in the same relationship as before. Suppose you live a perfect life. I can't imitate it so I'll just go on as before, won't I? So, I've to do something myself. Isn't that clear?
13:06 S: But I don't feel able to do anything myself.
13:09 B: But then can you see that if you don't do anything yourself... it's inevitable that it must go on. Any idea that it will ever get better is a delusion.
13:18 S: Can we say that right relationship begins... with the realisation that I have to do something for myself?
13:25 K: And the utter importance of it.
13:28 S: Right. The utter importance. The responsibility I have for myself.
13:33 K: Because you are the world.

S: Right.
13:35 K: And the world is you. You can't shirk that.
13:40 B: Perhaps we could discuss that a bit because it may seem strange... to some of the viewers, to say 'I'm the world'.
13:46 K: But after all, all that you are thinking... you are the result of the culture... the climate, the food, the environment... the economic conditions... your grandparents, you are the result of all that.
13:58 S: Well, you can see that.
14:00 B: That's right. That's what you mean... by saying you are the world.
14:05 S: I think you can see that in just what I've been laying out here... about the person who feels that... he's entitled to be taken care of... by the world, the world is in fact moving in that direction... of all the pleasure and the technological...
14:17 K: No sir. This is a simple fact. You go to India... you see the same suffering, the same anxiety... and you come to Europe, America... in essence, it is the same.
14:29 B: Each person has the same basic... structure of suffering and confusion... and deception and so on... Therefore if I say 'I am the world'... I mean that there is a universal structure... and it's part of me and I'm part of that.
14:42 K: Part of that. So, now, let's proceed from that. The first thing you have to tell me... as an ordinary human being, living in this mad rat race... you have to tell me, 'Look, realise the utter... greatest important thing in life is relationship'. You cannot have relationship... if you have an image about yourself... or if you create a pleasurable image and stick to that.
15:21 S: Or the image that you are entitled to, it comes before...
15:25 K: Any form of image... you have about another, or about yourself... prevents the beauty of relationship.
15:34 S: Right.
15:35 B: Yes. The image that I'm secure in such and such a situation... for example, and not secure in a different situation... that prevents relationship.

K: That's right.
15:47 B: Because I will say... I demand of the other person that he put me... in the situation that I think is secure. And then he may not want to.
15:55 S: Right. So that my relationship, if I have the image... of the pleasurable relationship... then all my actions are with reference... to this other person, that I try... to force him to move me into doing that... so that I have (a) I say to him... you should be this way because that would complete my image... (2) I have what I call claims on the other person... in other words, I expect him to act in such a way... that he acknowledges that image.
16:26 B: Yes. Or I may say... I have the image of what is just and right and so on. In other words, it's not that it's personally so, but I say... that would be the right way for everybody to behave.
16:35 S: Right. In order to complete my image.
16:38 B: Yes. For example the wife says, 'Husbands ought to take... their wives out to parties frequently'. that's part of the image.
16:46 S: Right.
16:47 B: Husbands have corresponding images and therefore... then that image gets hurt. Do you see?
16:55 S: Right. Now... I think we have to be very specific about that each... little piece of this is with fury.
17:06 B: With energy.
17:07 S: Energy and fury, necessity to... complete this image in relationship... therefore relationship gets forced into a mould.
17:13 K: Yes sir, I understand all that. But you see... most of us are not serious... we want an easy life. You come along and tell me... 'Look, relationship is the greatest thing'. I say, quite right. And I carry on the old way. What I'm trying to get at is... What will make a human being... listen to this, even seriously for 2 minutes? They won't listen to you.

S: Right.
17:56 K: If you went to one of the big... experts on psychology, or whatever it is... they won't take time to listen to you. They have got their plans... their pictures, their images - you follow? they are surrounded by all this. So, to whom are we talking to?
18:18 S: We are talking to ourselves. (Laughs)
18:20 K: No, not only that. Whom are we talking to?
18:22 B: Well, whoever is able to listen.
18:25 K: That means somebody who is somewhat serious.
18:29 B: Yes. And I think that we even may form an image of ourselves... as not being capable of being serious, and so on.
18:37 K: That's right.
18:39 B: In other words, that it's too hard.
18:40 K: Too hard, yes.
18:42 B: That's an image to say that... I want it easy, which means it comes... from the image 'this is beyond my capacity'.
18:48 K: Quite. So, let's move from there. We say, as long as you have an image... pleasant or unpleasant, created... etc. put together by thought... and so on, there is no right relationship. That's an obvious fact.
19:10 S: Right.
19:11 B: And life ceases to have any value without right relationship.
19:14 K: Yes. Life ceases to have any value without right relationship. My consciousness is filled with these images.
19:24 S: Right.
19:29 K: Right? And the images make my consciousness.
19:34 S: That's right.
19:37 K: Now, you are asking me to have no images at all. That means no consciousness as I know it now.
19:53 B: Yes... Could we say that the major part of consciousness... is the self-image? Is that what you are saying? There may be some other parts, but...
20:01 K: We will come to that.

B: We'll come to that later. But most of it, for now - we are mostly... occupied with the self-image.
20:07 K: That's right.
20:10 S: What about the self-image? And the whole way it generates itself... what do you think?
20:16 B: I think we discussed that before... it gets caught on thinking... of the self as real, and that's always implicit, to say... for example, the image may be that... I'm suffering in a certain way... and I must get rid of this suffering. But there is always... the implicit meaning in that that 'I' am there real... and therefore I must keep on thinking about this reality. And it gets caught in that feedback... we were talking about. The thought feeds back and builds up.
20:56 S: Builds up more images.

B: More images, yes.
20:58 S: More images. So that's the consciousness.
21:00 K: I mean, the content of my consciousness...
21:03 S: ...is all images.

K: ...is a vast series of images... interrelated, not separate, interrelated.
21:11 B: But they are all centred on the self.
21:13 K: On the self, of course. The self is the centre.
21:16 B: Yes, because they are all aimed at, they are all for the self... in order to make the self right, correct. And the self is regarded as all important.
21:26 K: Yes.
21:27 B: That gives it tremendous energy.
21:29 K: Now, what I'm getting at is... you are asking me, who am fairly serious... fairly intelligent, as an ordinary human being... you are asking me to empty that consciousness.
21:45 S: Right. I'm asking you to stop this image making.
21:51 K: Not only the image making, the images that I have... and prevent further image making.
21:58 S: Right, right.

K: Both are involved.
22:02 S: Yes, I'm asking you to look at the machinery of consciousness.
22:05 K: Yes. Wait a minute. I want to get at that. This is very important...
22:10 S: OK. Let's go! (Laughter)
22:15 K: You are asking me, and I want... to understand you because I really want... to live a different way of living... because I see it's necessary. I don't play with words. I don't want to be highfalutin. I want to deal with this thing. You are asking me to be free of the self... which is the maker of images... and to prevent further image-making.
22:58 S: Right.
23:01 K: And I say, 'please tell me what to do, how to do it'. And you tell me... 'When you ask me how to do it... you are already building an image, the system, the method'.
23:22 B: Yes, one could say, when you say 'how am I to do it'... you have already put 'I' in the middle.
23:27 K: In the middle.
23:28 B: The same image as before with a slightly different content.
23:31 K: So, you tell me don't ever ask how to do it... because the 'how'... involves the 'me' doing it.

S: Right.
23:44 K: Therefore I'm creating another picture.
23:46 B: So, that shows the way you slip... into it, because you say 'how to do it'... the word 'me' is not there but it's there implicitly.
23:53 K: Implicitly, yes.

B: And therefore you slip in.
23:55 K: How am 'I' to do it - of course.
23:57 B: But it usually slips in because... it's there implicitly and not explicitly. That's often the trick.

K: Explicit, yes.
24:06 S: Right.
24:07 K: Now, so you stop me and say 'then proceed from there'. How am I to free this consciousness... even a corner of it, a limited part of it... What is the action that will do it? I want to discuss it with you. Don't tell me how to do it. I've understood this. I will never again ask 'how to do it'. The 'how', as he explained, implies... implicitly, the 'me' wanting to do it, and therefore the 'me'... is the factor of the image maker.
24:55 K: I've understood that very clearly. Then I say to you... I realise this, what am I to do?
25:06 S: Do you realise it?
25:07 K: Yes. I know it. I know I'm making images all the time. I'm very well aware.

S: Yes, but...
25:18 K: Wait. Let me finish. I'm very well aware of it. My wife calls me an idiot; already registered in the brain... thought takes it over... the image which I've about myself is hurt.
25:39 S: Yes.

K: Right? So, this process I know, I'm very well aware of this.
25:45 S: Right.
25:47 K: Because I've discussed with you. I've gone into it. Because... I've realised right from the beginning during these... talks and dialogues... that relationship is the greatest importance in life; without that life is chaos.

S: Got it.
26:06 K: That has been driven into me. And I see every flattery and every insult... is registered in the brain. And thought then takes it over as memory... and creates an image, and the image gets hurt.
26:36 S: That's right.
26:37 B: When you say the image is the hurt... because the image is the pleasure... and with the new content, of insult... when the content is flattery the image is pleasure... and when the content is insult the image is hurt.
26:49 S: Right.
26:51 K: So, Dr. Bohm, what is one to do? What am I to do? There are two things involved in it... 1) to prevent further hurts... and to be free of all the hurts that I've had.
27:09 B: But they are both the same principle.
27:11 K: I think - you explain to me... I think there are 2 principles involved.
27:17 B: Are there?
27:19 K: One to prevent it, the other to wipe away the hurts I have.
27:24 S: I want to put it a little bit the other way. It's not just that you want... to prevent the further hurt... but it seems to me you must first say... how am I to be aware of the fact... that I take flattery. How are you going to get aware? Look, I want you to see that if I flatter you... you get a big inner gush... you start feeling big inside your belly... and then you get a fantasy about... well if you are so wonderful this way... then you will be twice as wonderful. So now you have an image of yourself as this... wonderful person who fits this flattery. Now, I want you to see yourself... eat my candy.
28:07 K: No, you have told me very clearly... It's two sides of the same coin.
28:16 S: Right.
28:17 K: Pleasure and pain are the same - the same.
28:23 S: Exactly the same.

K: Yes. You have told me that.
28:27 S: Right. I'm telling you that.

K: I've understood it.
28:30 B: They are both images.
28:31 K: Both images. So, please... my question is not answered. How am I, realising all this... - I'm a fairly intelligent man. I've read a great deal... an ordinary man - I personally don't read... an ordinary man I'm talking about. - I've read a great deal... I've discussed this and I see... how extraordinarily important all this is. And I say, I realise that... they are the 2 sides of the same coin. The brain registers and the whole... thing begins. Now, how am I to end that? Not the 'how', not the method, don't tell me what to do. I won't accept it because it means nothing to me. Right, sir?
29:30 B: Well... We were discussing whether there is a difference between... the stored up hurts and the ones which are to come.
29:41 K: That's right. That's the first thing I've to understand. Tell me.
29:45 B: It seems to me that fundamentally... they also work on the same principle.
29:51 K: How?
29:53 B: If you take the hurt that is to come... my brain is already disposed to... or set up to to respond with an image.
30:07 K: No, I don't understand you. Make it much simpler.
30:12 S: It seems to me... I'll make it…
30:14 K: Ah, I'm asking him.

S: OK
30:16 K: You are an expert at it. (Laughter) You have dozens of victims... he has only one victim here.
30:25 B: You see... There is no distinction really between the past hurts... and the present one because they all come from the past... come from the reaction of the past.
30:38 K: So, that's right. You are telling me... don't divide the past hurt or the future... because the image is the same.

B: Yes. The process is the same.
30:51 K: The process, therefore the image is receiving. Right?
30:56 B: Yes. It really doesn't matter... because I may just be reminded of the past hurt... that's the same as somebody else insulting me.
31:06 K: Yes, yes. So, you are saying to me... don't divide the past or the future hurt... there is only hurt... there is only pleasure, so, look at that. Look at the image, not in terms of... the past hurts and the future hurts... but just look at that image which is... both the past and the future.
31:43 B: Yes.

K: Right?
31:46 B: We are saying 'Look at the image... not in its particular content but its general structure'.
31:51 K: Yes, yes, that's right. Now, then... my next question is, how am I to look at it? Because I've already an image, with which I'm going to look. That I must suppress it, you promise to me by your words... not promise exactly, give me hope... that if I have right relationship... I'll live a life that will be extraordinarily beautiful... I'll know what love is and all the rest of it... therefore I'm already excited by this idea.
32:29 B: But then I have to be aware of the image of that kind too.
32:33 K: Yes, yes. Therefore how am I - that's my point... How am I to look at this image? I know I have an image, not only one image... but several images, but the centre... of that image is me, the 'I', I know all that. Now, how am I to look at it? May we proceed now? Right. Is the observer different from that which he is observing?
33:17 B: Yes, well...

K: That's the real question.
33:19 B: ...that's the question. You could say that's the root of the power of the image.
33:23 K: Yes, yes. You see, sir, what happens? If there is a difference between the observer and the observed... there is that interval of time in which other activities go on.
33:38 B: Well, yes, in which the brain sort of... eases itself into something more pleasant.
33:43 K: Yes, yes.
33:45 B: Yes, that's all right.
33:48 K: And where there is a division there is conflict. So, you are telling me to observe... in a different way, learn the art of observing... which is... that the observer is the observed.
34:12 B: Yes, but I think we could look first at our whole tradition... our whole conditioning, which is the observer is different... from the observed.

K: Different, of course.
34:21 B: We should perhaps look at that for a while.
34:23 K: Yes.
34:24 B: Because that's what everybody feels.
34:27 K: Yes. That the observer is different.
34:29 B: Yes. And I think it ties up with what... I was saying yesterday about reality... everything we think is reality of some kind... because at least it's thought, real thought. But we make a distinction... in reality between that reality which is... self-reference, self-sustaining... it stands independent of thought... and the reality which is sustained by thought.
34:57 K: Yes, reality sustained by thought.
35:00 B: And the reality which may have been made by man... but it stands by itself... like the table, or else like nature which...
35:06 K: ...is different.

B: ...is different.
35:08 K: Yes, that we went through the other day.
35:10 B: The observer, ordinarily we think... that when I'm thinking of myself... that self is a reality which is independent of thought.
35:20 K: Yes, we think that's independent of thought.
35:24 B: And that self is the observer who is a reality.
35:29 K: Quite.
35:30 B: Who is independent of thought and... who is thinking, who is producing thought.
35:34 K: But it's the product of thought.

B: Yes, but that's the confusion.
35:37 K: Yes, quite, quite. Are you telling me sir, as an outsider... that the observer is the result of the past?
35:53 B: Yes, one can see that.
35:55 K: My memories, my experiences, all the rest, the past.
35:58 B: Yes, but I think if we think of the viewer... he might find it a little hard... to follow that, if he hasn't gone into it.
36:06 S: Very hard, I think. How to communicate it to...
36:09 K: Ah, wait, it's fairly simple.

S: What do you mean?
36:14 K: Don't you live in the past?
36:17 S: I think I exist in the past.
36:19 K: Wait, no, no. Your life is the past. You're living in the past. Right?
36:26 S: That's right, yes.
36:28 K: Past memories, past experiences.
36:29 S: Past memories, past becomings, trying to become.
36:32 K: And from the past you project the future. 'I hope it will be better, I'll be good, I'll be different'. It's always from the past to the future.
36:42 S: Right. That's how it's lived.
36:45 K: Now, I want to see... that past is the 'me'... of course.
36:54 B: But it does look as if it's something independent... just that you are looking at.

K: Is it independent?
36:59 B: It isn't but to see that...
37:01 K: I know, that's why we are asking. Is the 'me' independent from the past?
37:07 B: It looks as if the 'me' is here looking at the past.
37:09 K: Of course, quite. The 'me' is in a jar, in a cage (laughs)... and that is looking. Quite.
37:19 S: That's right.
37:21 K: But the 'me' is the product of the past.
37:25 S: You can see that, but what's that jump that we go through... where we say... - I can say to you, 'I can see that... I'm the product of the past. I can see that'.
37:36 K: How do you see it?

B: Intellectually.
37:38 S: I see it intellectually.

K: Then you don't see it.
37:41 S: That's what I'm coming to.

K: Then you are playing tricks.
37:44 S: Right. I see it as an intellectual... That's right. I see it intellectually.
37:53 K: Do you see this intellectually?
37:54 S: No.

K: Why?
37:56 S: There is an immediacy of perception there.
37:59 K: In the same way, why isn't there... an immediacy of perception of a truth... which is, that you are the past? Not to make it an intellectual affair.
38:08 S: Because time comes in. I imagine that I've gone through time.
38:12 K: What do you mean imagine?
38:14 S: I've an image of myself at 3... I've an image of myself at 10... and I've an image of myself at 17, and I say that... they followed in sequence in time, and I see myself... having developed over time. I'm different now than I was 5 years ago.
38:31 K: Are you?
38:33 S: I'm telling you that's how I've got that image. That image is of a developmental sequence.
38:40 K: I understand all that, sir.

S: In time. Right?
38:42 B: Yes.
38:44 S: And I exist as a storehouse of memories of a bunch of... accumulated incidents.
38:52 K: That means, time has produced that.
38:56 S: Right. That's time. I see that.
39:00 K: What is time?
39:01 S: I've just described it to you. Time is my memories, is a movement in memory.
39:06 K: It's a movement. It's a movement.

S: That's right.
39:13 K: The movement from the past.
39:16 S: Right. I've moved from the time I was 3.
39:21 K: From the past, it's a movement.
39:22 S: That's right. From 3 to 10, 17.
39:25 K: I understand. It's a movement. Now, is that movement an actuality?
39:36 S: What do you mean by actuality?
39:38 B: Or is it an image?

K: Eh?
39:40 B: Is it an image or is it an actual fact?
39:42 K: Yes.
39:43 B: I mean... If I have an image of myself as saying, 'I need this'... but that may not be an actual fact. Right?
39:51 K: Image is not a fact.
39:55 S: But I feel...
39:56 K: Ah, no. What you feel is like saying 'my experience'. Your experience may be the most absurd experience.
40:03 S: No, but that's casting me aside... by saying 'look, you have got this going on'. This is a fact, I'm describing an actual...
40:11 B: But that's just the whole point... about the image, is that it imitates... an actual fact, do you see? You get the feeling it's real. In other words, I feel that I'm really there, an actual fact... looking at the past, how I've developed, right?
40:23 S: Right.
40:24 B: But is that a fact that I'm doing that?
40:27 S: What do you mean? It's an actual fact that I get the feeling... that I'm looking at it.
40:32 B: Yes, but is it an actual fact that that's the way it all is... and was and so on... that all the implications of that are correct.
40:43 S: No, it's not an actuality. I can see the incorrectness of my memory... which constructs me in time. Obviously I was much more at 3 than I can remember... I was much more at 10 than I can remember... and there was much more going on obviously in actuality... at 17 than I have in my memory.
41:05 B: Yes, but now the 'me' who is here and now... is looking at all that.
41:10 S: That's right.
41:11 B: But is he there and is he looking? That's the question.
41:14 S: Is the me...

K: ...an actuality?
41:18 S: ...an actuality.

K: As this is.
41:26 S: Well, let's...

K: Stick to it.
41:28 S: That's what I'm going to do. What is an actuality is this development... this image of a developmental sequence.
41:38 B: And the me who is looking at it.
41:40 S: And the me who is looking at it, right. That's right.
41:44 B: I think that's one of the things we slip out, because we say... there is the developmental sequence objectively... implying 'me' is looking at it... like I'm looking at the plant.
41:54 S: Right.
41:55 B: But it may be, or in fact it is... that the 'me' who is looking at it... is an image as is the developmental sequence.
42:04 S: Right. You are saying then that this image of 'me' is...
42:10 K: ...is non-reality, it's no reality.
42:13 B: Well, the only reality is that it's thought.
42:15 K: Yes.
42:16 B: It's not a reality independent of thinking.
42:18 K: So, we must go back to find out what is reality.
42:22 K: Reality, we said, is everything that thought has put together. the table, the illusion, the churches, the nations... everything that thought has contrived... put together, is reality. But nature is not reality.

S: Right.
42:41 K: Is not put together by thought, but it's a reality.
42:45 B: It's a reality independent of thought.
42:46 K: Independent of thought.

S: Right.
42:48 B: But you see, is the 'me' who is looking, a reality... that's independent of thought like nature?
42:55 K: That's the whole point. You have understood?
42:58 S: Yes, I'm beginning to see. Let me ask you a question... Can you say anything about the difference for you... between your... No, that's not fair. I was going to say... Is there any difference for you... between this perception, perception of this... and your perception of the 'me'?
43:23 K: This is real, 'me' is not real.
43:25 S: 'Me' is not real, but your perception of 'me'?
43:28 K: It doesn't exist.
43:31 B: Suppose...
43:32 S: Your perception of the image.
43:35 K: I have no image. if I have no image, where is the 'me'?
43:39 S: But I have an image of 'me'. What is my perception of 'me'?
43:44 B: Could I put it another way? Suppose you are watching a conjuring trick... and you perceive a woman being sawed in half. And then when you see the trick you say... What's your perception of this woman... who is being sawed in half? It isn't because she isn't being sawed in half. I'm trying to say as long as you don't see... through the trick, what you see apparently real... is somebody being cut in half. But you have missed certain points, but when you see... the points that you have missed... you don't see anybody being cut in half.
44:16 S: Right.
44:18 B: You just see a trick.
44:20 S: So I have missed the essence of it.
44:23 K: No sir, just let's be simple. We said... we have images... I know I have images, and you tell me to look at it... to be aware of it, to perceive the image. Is the perceiver different from the perceived? That's all my question.

S: I know. I know.
44:55 K: Because if he is different... then the whole process of conflict... will go on endlessly. Right? But if there is no division... the observer is the observed... then the whole problem changes.
45:10 S: Right.
45:12 K: Right? So is the observer different from the observed? Obviously, not. So, can I look at that image without the observer? And is there an image when there is no observer? Because the observer makes the image... because the observer is the movement of thought.
45:48 B: We shouldn't call it the observer then... because it's not looking. The language is confusing.

K: The language, yes.
45:54 B: Because if you say 'it's an observer' that implies that... something is looking.

K: Yes, quite.
45:58 B: What you are really meaning is that... thought is moving and creating an image... as if it were looking but nothing is being seen. Therefore there is no observer.
46:07 K: Quite right. But put it round the other way... is there a thinking without thought?
46:13 B: What?
46:14 K: Is there a thinker without thought?
46:17 S: No.
46:19 K: Exactly. There you are! If there is no experiencer is there an experience? So, you have asked me to look at my image... and you said, look at it... which is a very serious and very penetrating demand. You say, look at it without the observer... because the observer is the image-maker... and if there is no observer... if there is no thinker, there is no thought. Right? So, there is no image. You have shown me something enormously significant.
47:22 S: As you said, the question changes completely.
47:25 K: Completely. It's gone, I have no image.
47:28 S: It feels completely different. It's like, there is a silence.
47:33 K: So, I was saying, as my consciousness... is the consciousness of the world... because in essence... it's filled with the things of thought, sorrow... fear, pleasure, despair, anxiety... attachment, detachment, hope... it's a turmoil of confusion... a sense of deep agony is involved in it all. And in that state you cannot have any relationship... with any human being. So, you say to me... to have the greatest and the most responsible relationship... is to have no image.
48:33 S: That's to be responsive to 'what is'.
48:36 K: Don't translate it.
48:38 S: It is. I mean, this means to be responsive.
48:40 K: Yes.

S: To open it up.
48:42 K: So, you have pointed out to me... that to be free of images... the maker of image must be absent... the maker of the image is the past... is the observer who says... 'I like this', 'I don't like this'... 'It's my wife, my husband, my house'... you follow? the 'me', who is in essence the image. So, you see, I've understood this. Now, the next question is... Is the image... deep, hidden? Are the images hidden... which I can't grapple, which I can't get hold of? You follow, sir? Are they in the cave, in the underground... somewhere hidden... which you have told me there are... all you experts have told me... 'Yes, there are dozens of underground images'. How am I, because I accept you… I say 'Yes, by Jove, they must know... they know much more than I do... therefore they say so'. So I accept it. I say... 'Yes, there are underground images. Now, how am I to unearth them... expose them, out?' You see, you have put me, the ordinary man... into a terrible position.
50:17 S: You don't have to unearth them... if this is clear to you there is no...
50:23 K: But you have established already in me the poison.
50:28 S: You don't exist anymore. Once it's clear to you... that the observer is the observed...
50:37 K: Therefore you are saying there is no unconscious.
50:40 S: Right.

K: Ah! You, the expert?
50:42 S: No, I said... (laughs)
50:46 K: You, who talk endlessly about unconscious to your patients?
50:50 S: No, I don't. (Laughs)
50:53 K: Therefore you say there is no unconscious?
50:56 S: Right.
50:58 K: I agree with you! I say, it is so.
51:01 S: Right.
51:03 K: The moment when you see the observer is the observed... the observer is the maker of images, it's finished.
51:11 S: Finished. Right.

K: Right through.
51:15 S: If you really see that.
51:16 K: That's it! So, the consciousness which I know, in which we've lived... has undergone a tremendous transformation. Has it? Has it to you?
51:39 S: Mm.
51:39 K: No, sir, I mean, don't… has it to you? And if I may ask, Dr. Bohm, both... all of us, realising that the observer is the observed... and therefore the image-maker is no longer in existence... and so, the content of consciousness... which makes up consciousness... is not as we know it. Right? What then? We've got 5 minutes.
52:34 S: I don't know how to answer you there.
52:36 K: Sir, this is... - you follow? I'm asking this question because... it involves meditation. I'm asking this question... because all religious people, the really serious ones... I'm not talking of the gurus and all their flummery... the real serious people... who have gone into this question... as long as we live in daily life... within the area of this consciousness... - of anxiety, fear and all the rest of it... with all its images, and the image-maker... whatever we do will still be in that area. Right? I may join one year Zen, become a Zen, shave my head... and do all kinds of stuff... then another year, I go and become some guru… follow some guru, and so on, but it's always within that area.
53:49 S: Right.
53:50 K: So, what happens when there is no movement of thought... which is the image making, what then takes place? You understand my question? When time, which is the movement... of thought, ends, then what is there? Because you have led me up to this point. I understand it very well. I've tried Zen Buddhism... I've tried Zen meditation, I've tried Hindu meditation... I've tried all the kinds of... miserable practices and all that... and I meet you, I hear you and I say... 'By Jove, this is something... extraordinary, what these people are saying. They say, the moment… when there is no image-maker... the content of consciousness... undergoes a radical transformation... and thought comes to an end... except when it absolutely has its right place... knowledge and all the rest of it'. So, thought comes to an end, time has a stop. What then? Do you understand? Is that death?
55:21 S: It's the death of the self.
55:22 K: No, no. We've got 3 minutes more... we've got 1 minute more.
55:33 S: This is the same as self destruction.
55:35 K: No, no, sir. It's much more than that.
55:39 S: It's the end of something.
55:40 K: No, no. Just listen to it. When thought stops, when there is no image-maker... there is a complete transformation... in consciousness... because there is no anxiety, there is no fear... there is no pursuit of pleasure... there is none of the things... that create turmoil, division, and what... comes into being, or what happens? Not as an experience because that's out. What takes place in there? Because - you follow? I've to find out. You may be leading me up the wrong path! I think we should stop.