Krishnamurti Subtitles
Images and consciousness
Brockwood Park - 20 May 1976
The Transformation of Man 6
| 0:07 | K: I would like to |
| ask you, Dr. Bohm. | |
| 0:10 | As you are such a well-known... |
| 0:13 | physicist and scientist... |
| 0:17 | practically every schoolboy |
| knows about you... | |
| 0:19 | throughout the world... |
| 0:22 | I would like to ask... |
| 0:29 | after all these 4 or 5 |
| dialogues that we've had... | |
| 0:38 | What will change man? |
| 0:42 | What will bring about a |
| radical transformation... | |
| 0:50 | in the total consciousness |
| of human beings? | |
| 0:55 | B: I don't know that the scientific |
| background is going to be... | |
| 0:59 | very relevant to that question. |
| 1:02 | K: Would be? |
| B: I said, it's not clear that... | |
| 1:05 | the scientific background must |
| be relevant to that question. | |
| 1:07 | K: No, probably not, but... |
| 1:09 | after we've talked |
| considerably at length... | |
| 1:13 | not only now but in |
| the previous years... | |
| 1:20 | what is the energy... |
| 1:22 | I'm using 'energy' |
| not in any... | |
| 1:24 | scientific sense, |
| just ordinary sense... | |
| 1:27 | the vitality, the |
| energy, the drive... | |
| 1:31 | which is seems to be lacking? |
| 1:34 | After all, if I listen to you as |
| a viewer, to the 3 of us... | |
| 1:40 | I would say 'Yes, it's all very |
| well for these philosophers... | |
| 1:44 | or these scientists, experts, |
| but it's outside my field. | |
| 1:49 | It's too far away. |
| Bring it nearer. | |
| 1:55 | Bring it much closer so that |
| I can deal with my life'. | |
| 2:02 | B: I think at the end of the last |
| discussion we were touching... | |
| 2:06 | on one point |
| of that nature... | |
| 2:09 | because we were |
| discussing images. | |
| 2:12 | K: Images, yes. |
| 2:14 | B: And the self-image. And... |
| 2:18 | questioning whether we've |
| to have images at all. | |
| 2:22 | K: Of course, we went into that. |
| 2:24 | But you see, I want, |
| as a viewer... | |
| 2:27 | totally outside, |
| listening to you... | |
| 2:30 | for the first time, |
| the three of you... | |
| 2:33 | I say 'Look, how |
| does it touch my life? | |
| 2:39 | It's all so vague... |
| 2:43 | and uncertain and... |
| 2:48 | needs a great deal of thinking, |
| which I'm unwilling to do'. | |
| 2:54 | You follow? 'So, please tell me |
| in a few words, or at length... | |
| 3:01 | what am I to do with my life. |
| 3:08 | Where am I to touch it? |
| 3:11 | Where am I to break it down? |
| From where am I to look at it? | |
| 3:18 | I've hardly any time... |
| 3:22 | I go to the office; |
| I go to the factory... | |
| 3:24 | I've got so many things to do, |
| children, wife nagging, poverty'. | |
| 3:30 | The whole structure of misery, |
| and you sit there, you three... | |
| 3:37 | and talk about something which |
| 'c'est ne me touche pas'... | |
| 3:42 | that doesn't touch |
| me in the least'. | |
| 3:46 | So, could we bring it down... |
| 3:51 | to brass tacks as it were, |
| where I can grapple with it... | |
| 3:59 | as an ordinary human being? |
| 4:02 | B: Could we consider the problems |
| arising in daily relationship... | |
| 4:08 | as the starting point? |
| K: That's the essence, isn't it? | |
| 4:12 | I was going to begin with that. |
| 4:23 | My relationship with |
| human beings... | |
| 4:27 | is in the office, in the |
| factory, on a golf course. | |
| 4:34 | B: Or at home. |
| 4:36 | K: Or at home. And at |
| home it's pretty... | |
| 4:39 | you know, a routine, |
| sex, children... | |
| 4:44 | if I've children, |
| if I want children... | |
| 4:46 | and the constant battle, |
| battle, battle all my life. | |
| 4:54 | Insulted, wounded, hurt... |
| 4:59 | everything is going |
| on in me and around me. | |
| 5:02 | B: Yes, there is continual |
| disappointment. | |
| 5:04 | K: Continual disappointment, |
| continual hope... | |
| 5:07 | desire to be more successful, |
| more money... | |
| 5:10 | more, more, more of everything. |
| 5:14 | Now... |
| 5:20 | How am I to alter, change... |
| 5:23 | my relationship? |
| 5:27 | What is the... |
| 5:30 | the source of |
| my relationship? | |
| 5:33 | If we could tackle that a |
| little bit this morning... | |
| 5:40 | and go on to what |
| we were discussing... | |
| 5:43 | which is really |
| very important, | |
| 5:45 | which is not to have |
| an image at all. | |
| 5:49 | B: Yes. But it seems that as |
| we were discussing yesterday... | |
| 5:51 | we tend to be related almost |
| always through the image. | |
| 5:54 | K: Through the image, that's right. |
| 5:56 | B: Say, I've an image |
| of myself and of you... | |
| 5:59 | as you should be |
| in relation to me. | |
| 6:02 | And then that gets disappointed |
| and hurt and so on. | |
| 6:06 | K: But how am I to |
| change that image? | |
| 6:10 | How am I to break it down? |
| 6:12 | I know after you have talked to |
| me as an ordinary human being... | |
| 6:17 | I see very well |
| I've got an image... | |
| 6:21 | and it has been |
| put together... | |
| 6:24 | constructed |
| through generations. | |
| 6:29 | And I've got it. |
| I am fairly intelligent... | |
| 6:32 | I'm fairly aware of myself |
| and I see I've got it. | |
| 6:35 | How am I to break it down? |
| 6:39 | B: The point, as I |
| see it, is that... | |
| 6:42 | I've got to be aware |
| of that image... | |
| 6:44 | to watch it as it moves. |
| 6:47 | K: So, am I to watch it… |
| - I'm taking the opposite... | |
| 6:53 | Am I to watch it in the office? |
| B: Yes. | |
| 6:59 | K: In the factory, at home, |
| at the golf club... | |
| 7:03 | because in all these |
| areas are my relationships. | |
| 7:06 | B: Yes. I would say, I've to |
| watch it on all those places... | |
| 7:10 | and also when I'm not there. |
| 7:12 | K: When I'm not there. So, I've |
| to watch it all the time, in fact. | |
| 7:16 | B: Yes. |
| 7:17 | K: Now, am I capable of it? |
| Have I got... | |
| 7:21 | the energy, because |
| my wife wants sex... | |
| 7:24 | I don't want it, |
| or I enjoy sex, | |
| 7:27 | I go through all |
| kinds of miseries... | |
| 7:30 | and at the end of the day |
| I've hardly… I crawl into bed. | |
| 7:35 | And you say I must have |
| energy. So, I must realise... | |
| 7:41 | relationship is the |
| greatest importance. | |
| 7:44 | B: Yes. |
| 7:45 | K: Therefore I'm willing to give up |
| certain wastage of energies. | |
| 7:52 | B: What kind of wastage? |
| 7:57 | K: Drink. |
| 7:59 | Smoke, useless chatter. |
| 8:03 | Endless crawling from pub to pub. |
| 8:06 | B: That would be the |
| beginning anyway. | |
| 8:08 | K: That would be the beginning. |
| 8:11 | But you see, I want all those |
| plus more. You follow? | |
| 8:17 | B: But if I can see that everything |
| depends on this... | |
| 8:20 | K: Of course. |
| 8:21 | B: ...then I won't go to the pub, |
| if I see that that interferes. | |
| 8:25 | K: So, as an ordinary human |
| being, I must realise... | |
| 8:30 | the greatest importance is |
| to have right relationship. | |
| 8:34 | B: Yes. |
| 8:38 | It would be good |
| if we could say... | |
| 8:39 | what happens when |
| we don't have it. | |
| 8:41 | K: Oh, when I don't |
| have it, of course. | |
| 8:44 | B: Then everything |
| goes to pieces. | |
| 8:45 | K: Everything goes to pieces; |
| 8:49 | Not only everything |
| goes to pieces... | |
| 8:53 | I create such havoc around me. |
| 8:58 | So, can I... |
| 9:02 | by putting aside |
| smoke, drink, pubs... | |
| 9:06 | and the endless |
| chatter about... | |
| 9:08 | this or that, |
| will I gather that energy? | |
| 9:12 | B: Well, that's the beginning. |
| 9:14 | K: I'm asking, will I gather that |
| energy which will help me... | |
| 9:19 | to face the picture which |
| I have, the image which I have? | |
| 9:25 | B: Yes, it means going |
| also ambition... | |
| 9:28 | and many other things. |
| 9:30 | K: Of course. You see, |
| I begin by obvious things... | |
| 9:34 | like smoke, drink, |
| pub and all the rest. | |
| 9:36 | S: Let me just stop you here. |
| 9:39 | Suppose my image is that |
| you're going to do it for me... | |
| 9:47 | and my real image is that |
| I can't do it for myself. | |
| 9:52 | K: Oh, that's one of our |
| favourite conditionings... | |
| 9:57 | that I can't do it myself... |
| 10:00 | therefore I must go |
| to somebody to help me. | |
| 10:03 | S: Or I go to the pub, because |
| I see I can't do it for myself... | |
| 10:08 | so I create the condition... |
| 10:11 | several things come from |
| my going to the pub... | |
| 10:14 | 1 is, I'm in despair |
| because... | |
| 10:16 | I can't do it for myself |
| so I'm going to... | |
| 10:18 | obliterate myself |
| through drink... | |
| 10:21 | so I no longer |
| feel this pain. | |
| 10:23 | B: At least for the moment. |
| 10:24 | S: Right. And also 2... |
| 10:26 | I'm proving to myself |
| that my image that... | |
| 10:28 | I can't do it |
| for myself is right. | |
| 10:29 | After all, look at me, I'm on |
| the ground, in the gutter! | |
| 10:32 | You're going to deny that? |
| 2nd of all... | |
| 10:36 | by treating myself |
| in such a way... | |
| 10:39 | I'm going to prove to you |
| that I can't do it myself. | |
| 10:42 | May be I'll get you |
| to do it for me. | |
| 10:44 | K: I think sir, we don't |
| realise, any of us... | |
| 10:47 | the utter and absolute |
| importance... | |
| 10:51 | of right relationship. |
| 10:56 | I don't think we realise it. |
| 10:59 | S: I agree with you, we don't. |
| 11:00 | K: With my wife, with my |
| neighbour, in the office... | |
| 11:02 | wherever I am... |
| 11:04 | I don't think we realise |
| - with nature also... | |
| 11:08 | a relationship |
| which is easy... | |
| 11:12 | quiet, full, rich, happy... |
| 11:18 | the beauty of it, |
| the harmony of it. | |
| 11:21 | We don't realise that. |
| 11:23 | Now, can we tell the ordinary |
| viewer, the listener... | |
| 11:29 | the great importance of that? |
| 11:31 | S: Let's try. |
| 11:33 | How can we communicate |
| to somebody the value... | |
| 11:36 | of a right relationship? |
| You are my wife. | |
| 11:39 | You are whining, you |
| are nagging me. Right? | |
| 11:43 | You think that |
| I should be doing... | |
| 11:45 | something for you |
| when I'm tired... | |
| 11:47 | and don't feel like |
| doing anything for you. | |
| 11:49 | K: I know. Go to a party. |
| 11:50 | S: Right. 'Let's |
| go to the party... | |
| 11:53 | you never take me out'. |
| 11:55 | K: Yes. (Laughs) |
| 11:58 | S: Right? 'You never |
| take me anywhere'. | |
| 12:00 | B: Yes, making images. |
| 12:02 | K: Yes, so, how are you... |
| 12:04 | who realise the importance |
| of relationship... | |
| 12:09 | to deal with me? |
| 12:13 | How are you to deal? |
| 12:15 | No, I mean, we've got |
| this problem in life! | |
| 12:20 | B: I think it should be very clear |
| that nobody can do it for me. | |
| 12:24 | Whatever somebody else does, |
| it won't reflect my relationship. | |
| 12:29 | S: How are you going to make |
| that clear to somebody? | |
| 12:32 | B: But isn't it obvious? |
| 12:33 | S: It's not obvious. I feel very |
| strongly - I'm the viewer... | |
| 12:37 | I feel very strongly that you |
| ought to be doing it for me. | |
| 12:40 | My mother never did it for me, |
| somebody has got to do it for me. | |
| 12:43 | B: But, isn't it obvious |
| that it can't be done? | |
| 12:45 | I'm saying that that's |
| just a delusion because... | |
| 12:49 | whatever you do, I will be... |
| 12:50 | in the same relationship |
| as before. | |
| 12:53 | Suppose you live a perfect life. |
| 12:55 | I can't imitate it so I'll just |
| go on as before, won't I? | |
| 13:00 | So, I've to do something |
| myself. Isn't that clear? | |
| 13:06 | S: But I don't feel able |
| to do anything myself. | |
| 13:09 | B: But then can you see that if |
| you don't do anything yourself... | |
| 13:12 | it's inevitable |
| that it must go on. | |
| 13:15 | Any idea that it will ever |
| get better is a delusion. | |
| 13:18 | S: Can we say that right |
| relationship begins... | |
| 13:22 | with the realisation that |
| I have to do something for myself? | |
| 13:25 | K: And the utter importance of it. |
| 13:28 | S: Right. The utter importance. |
| 13:30 | The responsibility |
| I have for myself. | |
| 13:33 | K: Because you are the world. |
| S: Right. | |
| 13:35 | K: And the world is you. |
| You can't shirk that. | |
| 13:40 | B: Perhaps we could discuss that a |
| bit because it may seem strange... | |
| 13:43 | to some of the viewers, |
| to say 'I'm the world'. | |
| 13:46 | K: But after all, all that |
| you are thinking... | |
| 13:49 | you are the result |
| of the culture... | |
| 13:51 | the climate, the food, |
| the environment... | |
| 13:53 | the economic conditions... |
| 13:55 | your grandparents, you |
| are the result of all that. | |
| 13:58 | S: Well, you can see that. |
| 14:00 | B: That's right. That's |
| what you mean... | |
| 14:03 | by saying you are the world. |
| 14:05 | S: I think you can see that in just |
| what I've been laying out here... | |
| 14:07 | about the person |
| who feels that... | |
| 14:09 | he's entitled to |
| be taken care of... | |
| 14:11 | by the world, the world is in |
| fact moving in that direction... | |
| 14:14 | of all the pleasure |
| and the technological... | |
| 14:17 | K: No sir. This is a simple |
| fact. You go to India... | |
| 14:20 | you see the same suffering, |
| the same anxiety... | |
| 14:22 | and you come to |
| Europe, America... | |
| 14:24 | in essence, |
| it is the same. | |
| 14:29 | B: Each person has |
| the same basic... | |
| 14:31 | structure of suffering |
| and confusion... | |
| 14:34 | and deception and so on... |
| 14:36 | Therefore if I say |
| 'I am the world'... | |
| 14:38 | I mean that there is |
| a universal structure... | |
| 14:40 | and it's part of me |
| and I'm part of that. | |
| 14:42 | K: Part of that. So, now, |
| let's proceed from that. | |
| 14:49 | The first thing you |
| have to tell me... | |
| 14:51 | as an ordinary human being, |
| living in this mad rat race... | |
| 14:57 | you have to tell me, |
| 'Look, realise the utter... | |
| 15:02 | greatest important thing |
| in life is relationship'. | |
| 15:08 | You cannot have relationship... |
| 15:10 | if you have an image |
| about yourself... | |
| 15:13 | or if you create a pleasurable |
| image and stick to that. | |
| 15:21 | S: Or the image that you are |
| entitled to, it comes before... | |
| 15:25 | K: Any form of image... |
| 15:28 | you have about another, |
| or about yourself... | |
| 15:31 | prevents the beauty |
| of relationship. | |
| 15:34 | S: Right. |
| 15:35 | B: Yes. The image that I'm secure |
| in such and such a situation... | |
| 15:39 | for example, and not secure |
| in a different situation... | |
| 15:43 | that prevents relationship. |
| K: That's right. | |
| 15:47 | B: Because I will say... |
| 15:49 | I demand of the other |
| person that he put me... | |
| 15:51 | in the situation that |
| I think is secure. | |
| 15:53 | And then he may not want to. |
| 15:55 | S: Right. So that my relationship, |
| if I have the image... | |
| 15:59 | of the pleasurable |
| relationship... | |
| 16:02 | then all my actions |
| are with reference... | |
| 16:05 | to this other person, |
| that I try... | |
| 16:08 | to force him to move |
| me into doing that... | |
| 16:11 | so that I have |
| (a) I say to him... | |
| 16:14 | you should be this way because |
| that would complete my image... | |
| 16:17 | (2) I have what I call claims |
| on the other person... | |
| 16:20 | in other words, I expect |
| him to act in such a way... | |
| 16:23 | that he acknowledges |
| that image. | |
| 16:26 | B: Yes. Or I may say... |
| 16:27 | I have the image of what |
| is just and right and so on. | |
| 16:29 | In other words, it's not that |
| it's personally so, but I say... | |
| 16:32 | that would be the right way |
| for everybody to behave. | |
| 16:35 | S: Right. In order to |
| complete my image. | |
| 16:38 | B: Yes. |
| 16:39 | For example the wife says, |
| 'Husbands ought to take... | |
| 16:42 | their wives out to |
| parties frequently'. | |
| 16:45 | that's part of the image. |
| 16:46 | S: Right. |
| 16:47 | B: Husbands have corresponding |
| images and therefore... | |
| 16:53 | then that image gets hurt. |
| Do you see? | |
| 16:55 | S: Right. Now... |
| 16:57 | I think we have to be very |
| specific about that each... | |
| 17:00 | little piece of |
| this is with fury. | |
| 17:06 | B: With energy. |
| 17:07 | S: Energy and fury, |
| necessity to... | |
| 17:09 | complete this image |
| in relationship... | |
| 17:10 | therefore relationship |
| gets forced into a mould. | |
| 17:13 | K: Yes sir, I understand |
| all that. But you see... | |
| 17:18 | most of us are not serious... |
| 17:21 | we want an easy life. |
| 17:25 | You come along and tell me... |
| 17:27 | 'Look, relationship is |
| the greatest thing'. | |
| 17:29 | I say, quite right. |
| 17:30 | And I carry on the old way. |
| 17:36 | What I'm trying to get at is... |
| 17:39 | What will make a human being... |
| 17:43 | listen to this, even |
| seriously for 2 minutes? | |
| 17:52 | They won't listen to you. |
| S: Right. | |
| 17:56 | K: If you went to one |
| of the big... | |
| 17:59 | experts on psychology, |
| or whatever it is... | |
| 18:02 | they won't take |
| time to listen to you. | |
| 18:05 | They have got their plans... |
| 18:07 | their pictures, their |
| images - you follow? | |
| 18:09 | they are surrounded |
| by all this. | |
| 18:13 | So, to whom are we talking to? |
| 18:18 | S: We are talking to |
| ourselves. (Laughs) | |
| 18:20 | K: No, not only that. |
| Whom are we talking to? | |
| 18:22 | B: Well, whoever |
| is able to listen. | |
| 18:25 | K: That means somebody |
| who is somewhat serious. | |
| 18:29 | B: Yes. |
| 18:31 | And I think that we even may |
| form an image of ourselves... | |
| 18:34 | as not being capable of |
| being serious, and so on. | |
| 18:37 | K: That's right. |
| 18:39 | B: In other words, |
| that it's too hard. | |
| 18:40 | K: Too hard, yes. |
| 18:42 | B: That's an image to say that... |
| 18:44 | I want it easy, which |
| means it comes... | |
| 18:45 | from the image 'this is |
| beyond my capacity'. | |
| 18:48 | K: Quite. So, let's |
| move from there. | |
| 18:53 | We say, as long as |
| you have an image... | |
| 18:58 | pleasant or unpleasant, |
| created... etc. | |
| 19:02 | put together by thought... |
| 19:04 | and so on, there is |
| no right relationship. | |
| 19:07 | That's an obvious fact. |
| 19:10 | S: Right. |
| 19:11 | B: And life ceases to have any |
| value without right relationship. | |
| 19:14 | K: Yes. |
| 19:16 | Life ceases to have any value |
| without right relationship. | |
| 19:19 | My consciousness is |
| filled with these images. | |
| 19:24 | S: Right. |
| 19:29 | K: Right? And the images |
| make my consciousness. | |
| 19:34 | S: That's right. |
| 19:37 | K: Now, you are asking me |
| to have no images at all. | |
| 19:44 | That means no consciousness |
| as I know it now. | |
| 19:53 | B: Yes... |
| 19:55 | Could we say that the major |
| part of consciousness... | |
| 19:57 | is the self-image? |
| Is that what you are saying? | |
| 19:59 | There may be some |
| other parts, but... | |
| 20:01 | K: We will come to that. |
| B: We'll come to that later. | |
| 20:03 | But most of it, for now |
| - we are mostly... | |
| 20:05 | occupied with the self-image. |
| 20:07 | K: That's right. |
| 20:10 | S: What about the self-image? |
| 20:12 | And the whole way it |
| generates itself... | |
| 20:14 | what do you think? |
| 20:16 | B: I think we discussed |
| that before... | |
| 20:18 | it gets caught on thinking... |
| 20:21 | of the self as real, and that's |
| always implicit, to say... | |
| 20:26 | for example, the |
| image may be that... | |
| 20:28 | I'm suffering in |
| a certain way... | |
| 20:31 | and I must get |
| rid of this suffering. | |
| 20:35 | But there is always... |
| 20:36 | the implicit meaning in that |
| that 'I' am there real... | |
| 20:40 | and therefore I must keep |
| on thinking about this reality. | |
| 20:45 | And it gets caught |
| in that feedback... | |
| 20:47 | we were talking about. |
| 20:51 | The thought feeds |
| back and builds up. | |
| 20:56 | S: Builds up more images. |
| B: More images, yes. | |
| 20:58 | S: More images. So that's |
| the consciousness. | |
| 21:00 | K: I mean, the content |
| of my consciousness... | |
| 21:03 | S: ...is all images. |
| K: ...is a vast series of images... | |
| 21:08 | interrelated, not |
| separate, interrelated. | |
| 21:11 | B: But they are all |
| centred on the self. | |
| 21:13 | K: On the self, of course. |
| The self is the centre. | |
| 21:16 | B: Yes, because they are all aimed |
| at, they are all for the self... | |
| 21:20 | in order to make |
| the self right, correct. | |
| 21:24 | And the self is regarded |
| as all important. | |
| 21:26 | K: Yes. |
| 21:27 | B: That gives it |
| tremendous energy. | |
| 21:29 | K: Now, what I'm getting at is... |
| 21:32 | you are asking me, |
| who am fairly serious... | |
| 21:35 | fairly intelligent, as an |
| ordinary human being... | |
| 21:41 | you are asking me to |
| empty that consciousness. | |
| 21:45 | S: Right. I'm asking you to |
| stop this image making. | |
| 21:51 | K: Not only the image making, |
| the images that I have... | |
| 21:56 | and prevent further |
| image making. | |
| 21:58 | S: Right, right. |
| K: Both are involved. | |
| 22:02 | S: Yes, I'm asking you to look at |
| the machinery of consciousness. | |
| 22:05 | K: Yes. Wait a minute. |
| I want to get at that. | |
| 22:09 | This is very important... |
| 22:10 | S: OK. Let's go! (Laughter) |
| 22:15 | K: You are asking me, |
| and I want... | |
| 22:19 | to understand you |
| because I really want... | |
| 22:23 | to live a different |
| way of living... | |
| 22:28 | because I see it's necessary. |
| 22:32 | I don't play with words. |
| I don't want to be highfalutin. | |
| 22:39 | I want to deal with this thing. |
| 22:44 | You are asking me to |
| be free of the self... | |
| 22:50 | which is the |
| maker of images... | |
| 22:54 | and to prevent |
| further image-making. | |
| 22:58 | S: Right. |
| 23:01 | K: And I say, 'please tell me |
| what to do, how to do it'. | |
| 23:10 | And you tell me... |
| 23:12 | 'When you ask me how to do it... |
| 23:15 | you are already building an |
| image, the system, the method'. | |
| 23:22 | B: Yes, one could say, when |
| you say 'how am I to do it'... | |
| 23:25 | you have already |
| put 'I' in the middle. | |
| 23:27 | K: In the middle. |
| 23:28 | B: The same image as before |
| with a slightly different content. | |
| 23:31 | K: So, you tell me don't |
| ever ask how to do it... | |
| 23:38 | because the 'how'... |
| 23:40 | involves the 'me' doing it. |
| S: Right. | |
| 23:44 | K: Therefore I'm creating |
| another picture. | |
| 23:46 | B: So, that shows |
| the way you slip... | |
| 23:49 | into it, because you |
| say 'how to do it'... | |
| 23:51 | the word 'me' is not there |
| but it's there implicitly. | |
| 23:53 | K: Implicitly, yes. |
| B: And therefore you slip in. | |
| 23:55 | K: How am 'I' to do it |
| - of course. | |
| 23:57 | B: But it usually |
| slips in because... | |
| 23:59 | it's there implicitly |
| and not explicitly. | |
| 24:01 | That's often the trick. |
| K: Explicit, yes. | |
| 24:06 | S: Right. |
| 24:07 | K: Now, so you stop me and say |
| 'then proceed from there'. | |
| 24:13 | How am I to free |
| this consciousness... | |
| 24:20 | even a corner of it, |
| a limited part of it... | |
| 24:29 | What is the action |
| that will do it? | |
| 24:34 | I want to discuss it with you. |
| 24:36 | Don't tell me how to do it. |
| I've understood this. | |
| 24:42 | I will never again ask |
| 'how to do it'. | |
| 24:45 | The 'how', as he explained, |
| implies... | |
| 24:48 | implicitly, the 'me' wanting to |
| do it, and therefore the 'me'... | |
| 24:53 | is the factor |
| of the image maker. | |
| 24:55 | K: I've understood that very |
| clearly. Then I say to you... | |
| 25:00 | I realise this, |
| what am I to do? | |
| 25:06 | S: Do you realise it? |
| 25:07 | K: Yes. I know it. I know I'm |
| making images all the time. | |
| 25:16 | I'm very well aware. |
| S: Yes, but... | |
| 25:18 | K: Wait. Let me finish. |
| I'm very well aware of it. | |
| 25:21 | My wife calls me an idiot; |
| 25:26 | already registered |
| in the brain... | |
| 25:31 | thought takes it over... |
| 25:35 | the image which I've |
| about myself is hurt. | |
| 25:39 | S: Yes. |
| K: Right? | |
| 25:42 | So, this process I know, |
| I'm very well aware of this. | |
| 25:45 | S: Right. |
| 25:47 | K: Because I've discussed with |
| you. I've gone into it. Because... | |
| 25:51 | I've realised right from |
| the beginning during these... | |
| 25:56 | talks and dialogues... |
| 25:58 | that relationship is the |
| greatest importance in life; | |
| 26:02 | without that life is chaos. |
| S: Got it. | |
| 26:06 | K: That has been driven into me. |
| 26:12 | And I see every flattery |
| and every insult... | |
| 26:20 | is registered in the brain. |
| 26:27 | And thought then takes |
| it over as memory... | |
| 26:32 | and creates an image, |
| and the image gets hurt. | |
| 26:36 | S: That's right. |
| 26:37 | B: When you say the |
| image is the hurt... | |
| 26:39 | because the image |
| is the pleasure... | |
| 26:40 | and with the new |
| content, of insult... | |
| 26:44 | when the content is flattery |
| the image is pleasure... | |
| 26:46 | and when the content is |
| insult the image is hurt. | |
| 26:49 | S: Right. |
| 26:51 | K: So, Dr. Bohm, what is one |
| to do? What am I to do? | |
| 26:56 | There are two things |
| involved in it... | |
| 26:59 | 1) to prevent further hurts... |
| 27:04 | and to be free of all |
| the hurts that I've had. | |
| 27:09 | B: But they are both |
| the same principle. | |
| 27:11 | K: I think - you explain to me... |
| 27:14 | I think there are 2 |
| principles involved. | |
| 27:17 | B: Are there? |
| 27:19 | K: One to prevent it, the other |
| to wipe away the hurts I have. | |
| 27:24 | S: I want to put it a |
| little bit the other way. | |
| 27:26 | It's not just that you want... |
| 27:27 | to prevent the |
| further hurt... | |
| 27:30 | but it seems to me |
| you must first say... | |
| 27:32 | how am I to be |
| aware of the fact... | |
| 27:35 | that I take flattery. How |
| are you going to get aware? | |
| 27:41 | Look, I want you to see |
| that if I flatter you... | |
| 27:45 | you get a big inner gush... |
| 27:48 | you start feeling |
| big inside your belly... | |
| 27:51 | and then you get |
| a fantasy about... | |
| 27:53 | well if you are so |
| wonderful this way... | |
| 27:56 | then you will be |
| twice as wonderful. | |
| 27:58 | So now you have an image |
| of yourself as this... | |
| 28:00 | wonderful person |
| who fits this flattery. | |
| 28:03 | Now, I want you |
| to see yourself... | |
| 28:05 | eat my candy. |
| 28:07 | K: No, you have told |
| me very clearly... | |
| 28:13 | It's two sides of the same coin. |
| 28:16 | S: Right. |
| 28:17 | K: Pleasure and pain are |
| the same - the same. | |
| 28:23 | S: Exactly the same. |
| K: Yes. You have told me that. | |
| 28:27 | S: Right. I'm telling you that. |
| K: I've understood it. | |
| 28:30 | B: They are both images. |
| 28:31 | K: Both images. So, please... |
| 28:35 | my question is not answered. |
| 28:36 | How am I, realising all this... |
| 28:40 | - I'm a fairly intelligent man. |
| I've read a great deal... | |
| 28:44 | an ordinary man |
| - I personally don't read... | |
| 28:46 | an ordinary man |
| I'm talking about. | |
| 28:50 | - I've read a great deal... |
| 28:52 | I've discussed |
| this and I see... | |
| 28:54 | how extraordinarily |
| important all this is. | |
| 28:58 | And I say, I realise that... |
| 29:04 | they are the 2 sides |
| of the same coin. | |
| 29:09 | The brain registers |
| and the whole... | |
| 29:12 | thing begins. Now, |
| how am I to end that? | |
| 29:18 | Not the 'how', not the method, |
| don't tell me what to do. | |
| 29:23 | I won't accept it because |
| it means nothing to me. | |
| 29:28 | Right, sir? |
| 29:30 | B: Well... |
| 29:33 | We were discussing whether |
| there is a difference between... | |
| 29:35 | the stored up hurts and |
| the ones which are to come. | |
| 29:41 | K: That's right. |
| 29:41 | That's the first thing I've |
| to understand. Tell me. | |
| 29:45 | B: It seems to me |
| that fundamentally... | |
| 29:48 | they also work on |
| the same principle. | |
| 29:51 | K: How? |
| 29:53 | B: If you take the hurt |
| that is to come... | |
| 29:56 | my brain is already |
| disposed to... | |
| 30:01 | or set up to… |
| 30:05 | …to respond with an image. |
| 30:07 | K: No, I don't understand you. |
| Make it much simpler. | |
| 30:12 | S: It seems to me... |
| I'll make it… | |
| 30:14 | K: Ah, I'm asking him. |
| S: OK | |
| 30:16 | K: You are an expert |
| at it. (Laughter) | |
| 30:18 | You have dozens of victims... |
| 30:21 | he has only one victim here. |
| 30:25 | B: You see... |
| 30:28 | There is no distinction really |
| between the past hurts... | |
| 30:31 | and the present one because |
| they all come from the past... | |
| 30:35 | come from the |
| reaction of the past. | |
| 30:38 | K: So, that's right. |
| You are telling me... | |
| 30:41 | don't divide the past |
| hurt or the future... | |
| 30:46 | because the image is the same. |
| B: Yes. The process is the same. | |
| 30:51 | K: The process, therefore the |
| image is receiving. Right? | |
| 30:56 | B: Yes. It really |
| doesn't matter... | |
| 31:00 | because I may just be |
| reminded of the past hurt... | |
| 31:03 | that's the same as somebody |
| else insulting me. | |
| 31:06 | K: Yes, yes. So, you |
| are saying to me... | |
| 31:13 | don't divide the past |
| or the future hurt... | |
| 31:18 | there is only hurt... |
| 31:23 | there is only pleasure, |
| so, look at that. | |
| 31:30 | Look at the image, |
| not in terms of... | |
| 31:33 | the past hurts and |
| the future hurts... | |
| 31:36 | but just look at |
| that image which is... | |
| 31:40 | both the past and the future. |
| 31:43 | B: Yes. |
| K: Right? | |
| 31:46 | B: We are saying |
| 'Look at the image... | |
| 31:48 | not in its particular content |
| but its general structure'. | |
| 31:51 | K: Yes, yes, that's right. |
| Now, then... | |
| 31:54 | my next question is, |
| how am I to look at it? | |
| 31:58 | Because I've already an image, |
| with which I'm going to look. | |
| 32:07 | That I must suppress it, you |
| promise to me by your words... | |
| 32:13 | not promise exactly, |
| give me hope... | |
| 32:15 | that if I have |
| right relationship... | |
| 32:18 | I'll live a life that will be |
| extraordinarily beautiful... | |
| 32:22 | I'll know what love is |
| and all the rest of it... | |
| 32:24 | therefore I'm already |
| excited by this idea. | |
| 32:29 | B: But then I have to be aware |
| of the image of that kind too. | |
| 32:33 | K: Yes, yes. Therefore how am I |
| - that's my point... | |
| 32:36 | How am I to look at this image? |
| 32:42 | I know I have an image, |
| not only one image... | |
| 32:48 | but several images, |
| but the centre... | |
| 32:51 | of that image is me, the 'I', |
| I know all that. | |
| 32:55 | Now, how am I to look at it? |
| 33:05 | May we proceed now? Right. |
| 33:11 | Is the observer different from |
| that which he is observing? | |
| 33:17 | B: Yes, well... |
| K: That's the real question. | |
| 33:19 | B: ...that's the question. |
| 33:21 | You could say that's the root |
| of the power of the image. | |
| 33:23 | K: Yes, yes. You see, |
| sir, what happens? | |
| 33:27 | If there is a difference between |
| the observer and the observed... | |
| 33:31 | there is that interval of time |
| in which other activities go on. | |
| 33:38 | B: Well, yes, in which |
| the brain sort of... | |
| 33:41 | eases itself into something |
| more pleasant. | |
| 33:43 | K: Yes, yes. |
| 33:45 | B: Yes, that's all right. |
| 33:48 | K: And where there is a |
| division there is conflict. | |
| 33:52 | So, you are telling |
| me to observe... | |
| 34:01 | in a different way, |
| learn the art of observing... | |
| 34:05 | which is... |
| 34:09 | that the observer |
| is the observed. | |
| 34:12 | B: Yes, but I think we could look |
| first at our whole tradition... | |
| 34:16 | our whole conditioning, which |
| is the observer is different... | |
| 34:18 | from the observed. |
| K: Different, of course. | |
| 34:21 | B: We should perhaps |
| look at that for a while. | |
| 34:23 | K: Yes. |
| 34:24 | B: Because that's what |
| everybody feels. | |
| 34:27 | K: Yes. That the observer |
| is different. | |
| 34:29 | B: Yes. And I think it |
| ties up with what... | |
| 34:32 | I was saying yesterday |
| about reality... | |
| 34:37 | everything we think is |
| reality of some kind... | |
| 34:41 | because at least it's |
| thought, real thought. | |
| 34:44 | But we make a distinction... |
| 34:47 | in reality between |
| that reality which is... | |
| 34:49 | self-reference, |
| self-sustaining... | |
| 34:52 | it stands independent |
| of thought... | |
| 34:55 | and the reality which |
| is sustained by thought. | |
| 34:57 | K: Yes, reality sustained |
| by thought. | |
| 35:00 | B: And the reality which may |
| have been made by man... | |
| 35:02 | but it stands by itself... |
| 35:04 | like the table, or else |
| like nature which... | |
| 35:06 | K: ...is different. |
| B: ...is different. | |
| 35:08 | K: Yes, that we went |
| through the other day. | |
| 35:10 | B: The observer, |
| ordinarily we think... | |
| 35:14 | that when I'm |
| thinking of myself... | |
| 35:16 | that self is a reality which is |
| independent of thought. | |
| 35:20 | K: Yes, we think that's |
| independent of thought. | |
| 35:24 | B: And that self is the |
| observer who is a reality. | |
| 35:29 | K: Quite. |
| 35:30 | B: Who is independent |
| of thought and... | |
| 35:31 | who is thinking, who |
| is producing thought. | |
| 35:34 | K: But it's the product of thought. |
| B: Yes, but that's the confusion. | |
| 35:37 | K: Yes, quite, quite. |
| 35:41 | Are you telling me sir, |
| as an outsider... | |
| 35:47 | that the observer is |
| the result of the past? | |
| 35:53 | B: Yes, one can see that. |
| 35:55 | K: My memories, my experiences, |
| all the rest, the past. | |
| 35:58 | B: Yes, but I think if |
| we think of the viewer... | |
| 36:00 | he might find |
| it a little hard... | |
| 36:02 | to follow that, if |
| he hasn't gone into it. | |
| 36:06 | S: Very hard, I think. |
| How to communicate it to... | |
| 36:09 | K: Ah, wait, it's fairly simple. |
| S: What do you mean? | |
| 36:14 | K: Don't you live in the past? |
| 36:17 | S: I think I exist in the past. |
| 36:19 | K: Wait, no, no. |
| Your life is the past. | |
| 36:23 | You're living in |
| the past. Right? | |
| 36:26 | S: That's right, yes. |
| 36:28 | K: Past memories, |
| past experiences. | |
| 36:29 | S: Past memories, past becomings, |
| trying to become. | |
| 36:32 | K: And from the past |
| you project the future. | |
| 36:35 | 'I hope it will be better, |
| I'll be good, I'll be different'. | |
| 36:39 | It's always from the |
| past to the future. | |
| 36:42 | S: Right. |
| That's how it's lived. | |
| 36:45 | K: Now, I want to see... |
| 36:48 | that past is the 'me'... |
| 36:53 | of course. |
| 36:54 | B: But it does look as if it's |
| something independent... | |
| 36:56 | just that you are looking at. |
| K: Is it independent? | |
| 36:59 | B: It isn't but to see that... |
| 37:01 | K: I know, that's |
| why we are asking. | |
| 37:03 | Is the 'me' independent |
| from the past? | |
| 37:07 | B: It looks as if the 'me' is |
| here looking at the past. | |
| 37:09 | K: Of course, quite. |
| 37:13 | The 'me' is in a jar, |
| in a cage (laughs)... | |
| 37:17 | and that is looking. Quite. |
| 37:19 | S: That's right. |
| 37:21 | K: But the 'me' is the |
| product of the past. | |
| 37:25 | S: You can see that, but what's |
| that jump that we go through... | |
| 37:29 | where we say... |
| 37:31 | - I can say to you, |
| 'I can see that... | |
| 37:33 | I'm the product of the |
| past. I can see that'. | |
| 37:36 | K: How do you see it? |
| B: Intellectually. | |
| 37:38 | S: I see it intellectually. |
| K: Then you don't see it. | |
| 37:41 | S: That's what I'm coming to. |
| K: Then you are playing tricks. | |
| 37:44 | S: Right. I see it as |
| an intellectual... | |
| 37:50 | That's right. I see |
| it intellectually. | |
| 37:53 | K: Do you see this |
| intellectually? | |
| 37:54 | S: No. |
| K: Why? | |
| 37:56 | S: There is an immediacy |
| of perception there. | |
| 37:59 | K: In the same way, |
| why isn't there... | |
| 38:01 | an immediacy of |
| perception of a truth... | |
| 38:03 | which is, that |
| you are the past? | |
| 38:06 | Not to make it an |
| intellectual affair. | |
| 38:08 | S: Because time comes in. |
| 38:10 | I imagine that I've |
| gone through time. | |
| 38:12 | K: What do you mean imagine? |
| 38:14 | S: I've an image |
| of myself at 3... | |
| 38:16 | I've an image |
| of myself at 10... | |
| 38:19 | and I've an image of myself |
| at 17, and I say that... | |
| 38:22 | they followed in sequence |
| in time, and I see myself... | |
| 38:25 | having developed over time. |
| 38:28 | I'm different now than |
| I was 5 years ago. | |
| 38:31 | K: Are you? |
| 38:33 | S: I'm telling you that's |
| how I've got that image. | |
| 38:37 | That image is of a |
| developmental sequence. | |
| 38:40 | K: I understand all that, sir. |
| S: In time. Right? | |
| 38:42 | B: Yes. |
| 38:44 | S: And I exist as a storehouse |
| of memories of a bunch of... | |
| 38:50 | accumulated incidents. |
| 38:52 | K: That means, time |
| has produced that. | |
| 38:56 | S: Right. That's time. |
| I see that. | |
| 39:00 | K: What is time? |
| 39:01 | S: I've just described it to you. |
| 39:03 | Time is my memories, |
| is a movement in memory. | |
| 39:06 | K: It's a movement. |
| 39:08 | It's a movement. |
| S: That's right. | |
| 39:13 | K: The movement from the past. |
| 39:16 | S: Right. I've moved from |
| the time I was 3. | |
| 39:21 | K: From the past, |
| it's a movement. | |
| 39:22 | S: That's right. From |
| 3 to 10, 17. | |
| 39:25 | K: I understand. |
| It's a movement. | |
| 39:29 | Now, is that movement |
| an actuality? | |
| 39:36 | S: What do you mean by actuality? |
| 39:38 | B: Or is it an image? |
| K: Eh? | |
| 39:40 | B: Is it an image or |
| is it an actual fact? | |
| 39:42 | K: Yes. |
| 39:43 | B: I mean... |
| 39:44 | If I have an image of myself |
| as saying, 'I need this'... | |
| 39:48 | but that may not be |
| an actual fact. Right? | |
| 39:51 | K: Image is not a fact. |
| 39:55 | S: But I feel... |
| 39:56 | K: Ah, no. What you feel is |
| like saying 'my experience'. | |
| 40:00 | Your experience may be |
| the most absurd experience. | |
| 40:03 | S: No, but that's |
| casting me aside... | |
| 40:05 | by saying 'look, you |
| have got this going on'. | |
| 40:08 | This is a fact, I'm |
| describing an actual... | |
| 40:11 | B: But that's just |
| the whole point... | |
| 40:13 | about the image, |
| is that it imitates... | |
| 40:15 | an actual fact, do you see? |
| You get the feeling it's real. | |
| 40:18 | In other words, I feel that I'm |
| really there, an actual fact... | |
| 40:21 | looking at the past, how |
| I've developed, right? | |
| 40:23 | S: Right. |
| 40:24 | B: But is that a fact |
| that I'm doing that? | |
| 40:27 | S: What do you mean? |
| 40:29 | It's an actual fact |
| that I get the feeling... | |
| 40:31 | that I'm looking at it. |
| 40:32 | B: Yes, but is it an actual fact |
| that that's the way it all is... | |
| 40:37 | and was and so on... |
| 40:38 | that all the implications |
| of that are correct. | |
| 40:43 | S: No, it's not an actuality. |
| 40:45 | I can see the incorrectness |
| of my memory... | |
| 40:48 | which constructs me in time. |
| 40:51 | Obviously I was much more |
| at 3 than I can remember... | |
| 40:54 | I was much more at |
| 10 than I can remember... | |
| 40:58 | and there was much more going |
| on obviously in actuality... | |
| 41:02 | at 17 than I have in my memory. |
| 41:05 | B: Yes, but now the 'me' |
| who is here and now... | |
| 41:08 | is looking at all that. |
| 41:10 | S: That's right. |
| 41:11 | B: But is he there |
| and is he looking? | |
| 41:13 | That's the question. |
| 41:14 | S: Is the me... |
| K: ...an actuality? | |
| 41:18 | S: ...an actuality. |
| K: As this is. | |
| 41:26 | S: Well, let's... |
| K: Stick to it. | |
| 41:28 | S: That's what I'm going to do. |
| 41:30 | What is an actuality |
| is this development... | |
| 41:35 | this image of a |
| developmental sequence. | |
| 41:38 | B: And the me who |
| is looking at it. | |
| 41:40 | S: And the me who is looking |
| at it, right. That's right. | |
| 41:44 | B: I think that's one of the things |
| we slip out, because we say... | |
| 41:47 | there is the developmental |
| sequence objectively... | |
| 41:51 | implying 'me' |
| is looking at it... | |
| 41:52 | like I'm looking |
| at the plant. | |
| 41:54 | S: Right. |
| 41:55 | B: But it may be, |
| or in fact it is... | |
| 41:57 | that the 'me' who |
| is looking at it... | |
| 41:59 | is an image as is the |
| developmental sequence. | |
| 42:04 | S: Right. You are saying then |
| that this image of 'me' is... | |
| 42:10 | K: ...is non-reality, |
| it's no reality. | |
| 42:13 | B: Well, the only reality |
| is that it's thought. | |
| 42:15 | K: Yes. |
| 42:16 | B: It's not a reality |
| independent of thinking. | |
| 42:18 | K: So, we must go back to |
| find out what is reality. | |
| 42:22 | K: Reality, we said, is everything |
| that thought has put together. | |
| 42:27 | the table, the illusion, |
| the churches, the nations... | |
| 42:33 | everything that |
| thought has contrived... | |
| 42:35 | put together, is reality. |
| 42:38 | But nature is not reality. |
| S: Right. | |
| 42:41 | K: Is not put together by |
| thought, but it's a reality. | |
| 42:45 | B: It's a reality independent |
| of thought. | |
| 42:46 | K: Independent of thought. |
| S: Right. | |
| 42:48 | B: But you see, is the 'me' |
| who is looking, a reality... | |
| 42:52 | that's independent |
| of thought like nature? | |
| 42:55 | K: That's the whole point. |
| You have understood? | |
| 42:58 | S: Yes, I'm beginning to see. |
| 43:01 | Let me ask you a question... |
| 43:03 | Can you say anything about |
| the difference for you... | |
| 43:07 | between your... |
| 43:10 | No, that's not fair. |
| I was going to say... | |
| 43:14 | Is there any difference |
| for you... | |
| 43:15 | between this perception, |
| perception of this... | |
| 43:18 | and your perception |
| of the 'me'? | |
| 43:23 | K: This is real, |
| 'me' is not real. | |
| 43:25 | S: 'Me' is not real, but |
| your perception of 'me'? | |
| 43:28 | K: It doesn't exist. |
| 43:31 | B: Suppose... |
| 43:32 | S: Your perception of the image. |
| 43:35 | K: I have no image. if I have |
| no image, where is the 'me'? | |
| 43:39 | S: But I have |
| an image of 'me'. | |
| 43:41 | What is my perception of 'me'? |
| 43:44 | B: Could I put it another way? |
| 43:45 | Suppose you are watching |
| a conjuring trick... | |
| 43:46 | and you perceive a woman |
| being sawed in half. | |
| 43:50 | And then when you see |
| the trick you say... | |
| 43:52 | What's your perception |
| of this woman... | |
| 43:54 | who is being sawed in half? |
| 43:55 | It isn't because she isn't |
| being sawed in half. | |
| 43:59 | I'm trying to say as |
| long as you don't see... | |
| 44:01 | through the trick, what |
| you see apparently real... | |
| 44:05 | is somebody |
| being cut in half. | |
| 44:08 | But you have missed certain |
| points, but when you see... | |
| 44:12 | the points that |
| you have missed... | |
| 44:14 | you don't see anybody |
| being cut in half. | |
| 44:16 | S: Right. |
| 44:18 | B: You just see a trick. |
| 44:20 | S: So I have missed |
| the essence of it. | |
| 44:23 | K: No sir, just let's be simple. |
| 44:26 | We said... |
| 44:30 | we have images... |
| 44:36 | I know I have images, and |
| you tell me to look at it... | |
| 44:41 | to be aware of it, |
| to perceive the image. | |
| 44:47 | Is the perceiver different |
| from the perceived? | |
| 44:51 | That's all my question. |
| S: I know. I know. | |
| 44:55 | K: Because if he is different... |
| 44:57 | then the whole |
| process of conflict... | |
| 44:59 | will go on endlessly. Right? |
| But if there is no division... | |
| 45:05 | the observer is the observed... |
| 45:08 | then the whole |
| problem changes. | |
| 45:10 | S: Right. |
| 45:12 | K: Right? |
| 45:13 | So is the observer different |
| from the observed? | |
| 45:24 | Obviously, not. |
| 45:27 | So, can I look at that image |
| without the observer? | |
| 45:34 | And is there an image when |
| there is no observer? | |
| 45:40 | Because the observer |
| makes the image... | |
| 45:43 | because the observer |
| is the movement of thought. | |
| 45:48 | B: We shouldn't call |
| it the observer then... | |
| 45:50 | because it's not looking. |
| 45:52 | The language is confusing. |
| K: The language, yes. | |
| 45:54 | B: Because if you say 'it's an |
| observer' that implies that... | |
| 45:56 | something is looking. |
| K: Yes, quite. | |
| 45:58 | B: What you are really |
| meaning is that... | |
| 46:00 | thought is moving and |
| creating an image... | |
| 46:02 | as if it were looking but |
| nothing is being seen. | |
| 46:06 | Therefore there is no observer. |
| 46:07 | K: Quite right. But put |
| it round the other way... | |
| 46:10 | is there a thinking |
| without thought? | |
| 46:13 | B: What? |
| 46:14 | K: Is there a thinker |
| without thought? | |
| 46:17 | S: No. |
| 46:19 | K: Exactly. There you are! |
| 46:24 | If there is no experiencer |
| is there an experience? | |
| 46:35 | So, you have asked me |
| to look at my image... | |
| 46:41 | and you said, look at it... |
| 46:44 | which is a very serious |
| and very penetrating demand. | |
| 46:54 | You say, look at it |
| without the observer... | |
| 47:00 | because the observer |
| is the image-maker... | |
| 47:03 | and if there is no observer... |
| 47:06 | if there is no thinker, |
| there is no thought. Right? | |
| 47:11 | So, there is no image. |
| 47:16 | You have shown me something |
| enormously significant. | |
| 47:22 | S: As you said, the question |
| changes completely. | |
| 47:25 | K: Completely. It's gone, |
| I have no image. | |
| 47:28 | S: It feels completely different. |
| It's like, there is a silence. | |
| 47:33 | K: So, I was saying, |
| as my consciousness... | |
| 47:38 | is the consciousness |
| of the world... | |
| 47:43 | because in essence... |
| 47:47 | it's filled with the things |
| of thought, sorrow... | |
| 47:51 | fear, pleasure, |
| despair, anxiety... | |
| 47:55 | attachment, detachment, |
| hope... | |
| 47:59 | it's a turmoil of confusion... |
| 48:05 | a sense of deep agony |
| is involved in it all. | |
| 48:11 | And in that state you cannot |
| have any relationship... | |
| 48:17 | with any human being. |
| 48:20 | So, you say to me... |
| 48:23 | to have the greatest and the |
| most responsible relationship... | |
| 48:30 | is to have no image. |
| 48:33 | S: That's to be responsive |
| to 'what is'. | |
| 48:36 | K: Don't translate it. |
| 48:38 | S: It is. I mean, this means |
| to be responsive. | |
| 48:40 | K: Yes. |
| S: To open it up. | |
| 48:42 | K: So, you have |
| pointed out to me... | |
| 48:44 | that to be free of images... |
| 48:49 | the maker of image |
| must be absent... | |
| 48:52 | the maker of the |
| image is the past... | |
| 48:55 | is the observer who says... |
| 48:56 | 'I like this', |
| 'I don't like this'... | |
| 48:59 | 'It's my wife, my |
| husband, my house'... | |
| 49:01 | you follow? |
| 49:03 | the 'me', who is in |
| essence the image. | |
| 49:09 | So, you see, |
| I've understood this. | |
| 49:13 | Now, the next question is... |
| 49:17 | Is the image... |
| 49:20 | deep, hidden? |
| Are the images hidden... | |
| 49:24 | which I can't grapple, |
| which I can't get hold of? | |
| 49:29 | You follow, sir? |
| 49:31 | Are they in the cave, |
| in the underground... | |
| 49:35 | somewhere hidden... |
| 49:37 | which you have |
| told me there are... | |
| 49:41 | all you experts |
| have told me... | |
| 49:43 | 'Yes, there are dozens |
| of underground images'. | |
| 49:50 | How am I, because |
| I accept you… | |
| 49:53 | I say 'Yes, by Jove, |
| they must know... | |
| 49:54 | they know much |
| more than I do... | |
| 49:56 | therefore they say so'. |
| So I accept it. I say... | |
| 50:00 | 'Yes, there are |
| underground images. | |
| 50:03 | Now, how am I to unearth them... |
| 50:05 | expose them, out?' |
| 50:10 | You see, you have put |
| me, the ordinary man... | |
| 50:13 | into a terrible position. |
| 50:17 | S: You don't have |
| to unearth them... | |
| 50:20 | if this is clear to |
| you there is no... | |
| 50:23 | K: But you have established |
| already in me the poison. | |
| 50:28 | S: You don't exist anymore. |
| Once it's clear to you... | |
| 50:34 | that the observer |
| is the observed... | |
| 50:37 | K: Therefore you are saying |
| there is no unconscious. | |
| 50:40 | S: Right. |
| K: Ah! You, the expert? | |
| 50:42 | S: No, I said... (laughs) |
| 50:46 | K: You, who talk endlessly about |
| unconscious to your patients? | |
| 50:50 | S: No, I don't. (Laughs) |
| 50:53 | K: Therefore you say |
| there is no unconscious? | |
| 50:56 | S: Right. |
| 50:58 | K: I agree with you! |
| I say, it is so. | |
| 51:01 | S: Right. |
| 51:03 | K: The moment when you see |
| the observer is the observed... | |
| 51:07 | the observer is the maker |
| of images, it's finished. | |
| 51:11 | S: Finished. Right. |
| K: Right through. | |
| 51:15 | S: If you really see that. |
| 51:16 | K: That's it! |
| 51:21 | So, the consciousness which I |
| know, in which we've lived... | |
| 51:32 | has undergone a tremendous |
| transformation. | |
| 51:37 | Has it? Has it to you? |
| 51:39 | S: Mm. |
| 51:39 | K: No, sir, I mean, don't… |
| has it to you? | |
| 51:44 | And if I may ask, |
| Dr. Bohm, both... | |
| 51:46 | all of us, realising that |
| the observer is the observed... | |
| 51:54 | and therefore the image-maker |
| is no longer in existence... | |
| 51:59 | and so, the content |
| of consciousness... | |
| 52:04 | which makes up consciousness... |
| 52:06 | is not as we know it. |
| 52:10 | Right? What then? |
| 52:25 | We've got 5 minutes. |
| 52:34 | S: I don't know how |
| to answer you there. | |
| 52:36 | K: Sir, this is... |
| - you follow? | |
| 52:38 | I'm asking this |
| question because... | |
| 52:45 | it involves meditation. |
| 52:49 | I'm asking this question... |
| 52:51 | because all religious people, |
| the really serious ones... | |
| 52:55 | I'm not talking of the gurus |
| and all their flummery... | |
| 53:02 | the real serious people... |
| 53:04 | who have gone |
| into this question... | |
| 53:08 | as long as we |
| live in daily life... | |
| 53:13 | within the area of |
| this consciousness... | |
| 53:17 | - of anxiety, fear and |
| all the rest of it... | |
| 53:19 | with all its images, |
| and the image-maker... | |
| 53:23 | whatever we do will still |
| be in that area. Right? | |
| 53:32 | I may join one year Zen, become |
| a Zen, shave my head... | |
| 53:36 | and do all kinds of stuff... |
| 53:38 | then another year, I go |
| and become some guru… | |
| 53:42 | follow some guru, and so on, |
| but it's always within that area. | |
| 53:49 | S: Right. |
| 53:50 | K: So, what happens when |
| there is no movement of thought... | |
| 53:58 | which is the image making, |
| what then takes place? | |
| 54:02 | You understand my question? |
| 54:06 | When time, which |
| is the movement... | |
| 54:08 | of thought, ends, |
| then what is there? | |
| 54:20 | Because you have led |
| me up to this point. | |
| 54:25 | I understand it very well. |
| I've tried Zen Buddhism... | |
| 54:29 | I've tried Zen meditation, |
| I've tried Hindu meditation... | |
| 54:32 | I've tried all |
| the kinds of... | |
| 54:35 | miserable practices |
| and all that... | |
| 54:37 | and I meet you, |
| I hear you and I say... | |
| 54:40 | 'By Jove, this is something... |
| 54:41 | extraordinary, what these |
| people are saying. | |
| 54:45 | They say, the moment… |
| 54:48 | when there is no image-maker... |
| 54:53 | the content of consciousness... |
| 54:55 | undergoes a radical |
| transformation... | |
| 54:59 | and thought comes to an end... |
| 55:04 | except when it absolutely |
| has its right place... | |
| 55:07 | knowledge and |
| all the rest of it'. | |
| 55:09 | So, thought comes to an |
| end, time has a stop. | |
| 55:14 | What then? |
| Do you understand? | |
| 55:17 | Is that death? |
| 55:21 | S: It's the death of the self. |
| 55:22 | K: No, no. We've got |
| 3 minutes more... | |
| 55:31 | we've got 1 minute more. |
| 55:33 | S: This is the same |
| as self destruction. | |
| 55:35 | K: No, no, sir. It's much |
| more than that. | |
| 55:39 | S: It's the end of something. |
| 55:40 | K: No, no. Just listen to it. |
| 55:45 | When thought stops, when |
| there is no image-maker... | |
| 55:50 | there is a complete |
| transformation... | |
| 55:53 | in consciousness... |
| 55:57 | because there is no anxiety, |
| there is no fear... | |
| 56:00 | there is no pursuit |
| of pleasure... | |
| 56:02 | there is none |
| of the things... | |
| 56:03 | that create turmoil, |
| division, and what... | |
| 56:07 | comes into being, |
| or what happens? | |
| 56:12 | Not as an experience |
| because that's out. | |
| 56:15 | What takes place in there? |
| 56:19 | Because - you follow? |
| I've to find out. | |
| 56:25 | You may be leading me up |
| the wrong path! | |
| 56:36 | I think we should stop. |