Krishnamurti Subtitles

Images and consciousness

Brockwood Park - 20 May 1976

The Transformation of Man 6



0:07 K: I would like to
ask you, Dr. Bohm.
  
0:10 As you are such a well-known...
 
0:13 physicist and scientist...
 
0:17 practically every schoolboy
knows about you...
  
0:19 throughout the world...
 
0:22 I would like to ask...
 
0:29 after all these 4 or 5
dialogues that we've had...
  
0:38 What will change man?
 
0:42 What will bring about a
radical transformation...
  
0:50 in the total consciousness
of human beings?
  
0:55 B: I don't know that the scientific
background is going to be...
  
0:59 very relevant to that question.
 
1:02 K: Would be?
B: I said, it's not clear that...
  
1:05 the scientific background must
be relevant to that question.
  
1:07 K: No, probably not, but...
 
1:09 after we've talked
considerably at length...
  
1:13 not only now but in
the previous years...
  
1:20 what is the energy...
 
1:22 I'm using 'energy'
not in any...
  
1:24 scientific sense,
just ordinary sense...
  
1:27 the vitality, the
energy, the drive...
  
1:31 which is seems to be lacking?
 
1:34 After all, if I listen to you as
a viewer, to the 3 of us...
  
1:40 I would say 'Yes, it's all very
well for these philosophers...
  
1:44 or these scientists, experts,
but it's outside my field.
  
1:49 It's too far away.
Bring it nearer.
  
1:55 Bring it much closer so that
I can deal with my life'.
  
2:02 B: I think at the end of the last
discussion we were touching...
  
2:06 on one point
of that nature...
  
2:09 because we were
discussing images.
  
2:12 K: Images, yes.
 
2:14 B: And the self-image. And...
 
2:18 questioning whether we've
to have images at all.
  
2:22 K: Of course, we went into that.
 
2:24 But you see, I want,
as a viewer...
  
2:27 totally outside,
listening to you...
  
2:30 for the first time,
the three of you...
  
2:33 I say 'Look, how
does it touch my life?
  
2:39 It's all so vague...
 
2:43 and uncertain and...
 
2:48 needs a great deal of thinking,
which I'm unwilling to do'.
  
2:54 You follow? 'So, please tell me
in a few words, or at length...
  
3:01 what am I to do with my life.
 
3:08 Where am I to touch it?
 
3:11 Where am I to break it down?
From where am I to look at it?
  
3:18 I've hardly any time...
 
3:22 I go to the office;
I go to the factory...
  
3:24 I've got so many things to do,
children, wife nagging, poverty'.
  
3:30 The whole structure of misery,
and you sit there, you three...
  
3:37 and talk about something which
'c'est ne me touche pas'...
  
3:42 that doesn't touch
me in the least'.
  
3:46 So, could we bring it down...
 
3:51 to brass tacks as it were,
where I can grapple with it...
  
3:59 as an ordinary human being?
 
4:02 B: Could we consider the problems
arising in daily relationship...
  
4:08 as the starting point?
K: That's the essence, isn't it?
  
4:12 I was going to begin with that.
 
4:23 My relationship with
human beings...
  
4:27 is in the office, in the
factory, on a golf course.
  
4:34 B: Or at home.
 
4:36 K: Or at home. And at
home it's pretty...
  
4:39 you know, a routine,
sex, children...
  
4:44 if I've children,
if I want children...
  
4:46 and the constant battle,
battle, battle all my life.
  
4:54 Insulted, wounded, hurt...
 
4:59 everything is going
on in me and around me.
  
5:02 B: Yes, there is continual
disappointment.
  
5:04 K: Continual disappointment,
continual hope...
  
5:07 desire to be more successful,
more money...
  
5:10 more, more, more of everything.
 
5:14 Now...
 
5:20 How am I to alter, change...
 
5:23 my relationship?
 
5:27 What is the...
 
5:30 the source of
my relationship?
  
5:33 If we could tackle that a
little bit this morning...
  
5:40 and go on to what
we were discussing...
  
5:43 which is really
very important,
  
5:45 which is not to have
an image at all.
  
5:49 B: Yes. But it seems that as
we were discussing yesterday...
  
5:51 we tend to be related almost
always through the image.
  
5:54 K: Through the image, that's right.
 
5:56 B: Say, I've an image
of myself and of you...
  
5:59 as you should be
in relation to me.
  
6:02 And then that gets disappointed
and hurt and so on.
  
6:06 K: But how am I to
change that image?
  
6:10 How am I to break it down?
 
6:12 I know after you have talked to
me as an ordinary human being...
  
6:17 I see very well
I've got an image...
  
6:21 and it has been
put together...
  
6:24 constructed
through generations.
  
6:29 And I've got it.
I am fairly intelligent...
  
6:32 I'm fairly aware of myself
and I see I've got it.
  
6:35 How am I to break it down?
 
6:39 B: The point, as I
see it, is that...
  
6:42 I've got to be aware
of that image...
  
6:44 to watch it as it moves.
 
6:47 K: So, am I to watch it…
- I'm taking the opposite...
  
6:53 Am I to watch it in the office?
B: Yes.
  
6:59 K: In the factory, at home,
at the golf club...
  
7:03 because in all these
areas are my relationships.
  
7:06 B: Yes. I would say, I've to
watch it on all those places...
  
7:10 and also when I'm not there.
 
7:12 K: When I'm not there. So, I've
to watch it all the time, in fact.
  
7:16 B: Yes.
 
7:17 K: Now, am I capable of it?
Have I got...
  
7:21 the energy, because
my wife wants sex...
  
7:24 I don't want it,
or I enjoy sex,
  
7:27 I go through all
kinds of miseries...
  
7:30 and at the end of the day
I've hardly… I crawl into bed.
  
7:35 And you say I must have
energy. So, I must realise...
  
7:41 relationship is the
greatest importance.
  
7:44 B: Yes.
 
7:45 K: Therefore I'm willing to give up
certain wastage of energies.
  
7:52 B: What kind of wastage?
 
7:57 K: Drink.
 
7:59 Smoke, useless chatter.
 
8:03 Endless crawling from pub to pub.
 
8:06 B: That would be the
beginning anyway.
  
8:08 K: That would be the beginning.
 
8:11 But you see, I want all those
plus more. You follow?
  
8:17 B: But if I can see that everything
depends on this...
  
8:20 K: Of course.
 
8:21 B: ...then I won't go to the pub,
if I see that that interferes.
  
8:25 K: So, as an ordinary human
being, I must realise...
  
8:30 the greatest importance is
to have right relationship.
  
8:34 B: Yes.
 
8:38 It would be good
if we could say...
  
8:39 what happens when
we don't have it.
  
8:41 K: Oh, when I don't
have it, of course.
  
8:44 B: Then everything
goes to pieces.
  
8:45 K: Everything goes to pieces;
 
8:49 Not only everything
goes to pieces...
  
8:53 I create such havoc around me.
 
8:58 So, can I...
 
9:02 by putting aside
smoke, drink, pubs...
  
9:06 and the endless
chatter about...
  
9:08 this or that,
will I gather that energy?
  
9:12 B: Well, that's the beginning.
 
9:14 K: I'm asking, will I gather that
energy which will help me...
  
9:19 to face the picture which
I have, the image which I have?
  
9:25 B: Yes, it means going
also ambition...
  
9:28 and many other things.
 
9:30 K: Of course. You see,
I begin by obvious things...
  
9:34 like smoke, drink,
pub and all the rest.
  
9:36 S: Let me just stop you here.
 
9:39 Suppose my image is that
you're going to do it for me...
  
9:47 and my real image is that
I can't do it for myself.
  
9:52 K: Oh, that's one of our
favourite conditionings...
  
9:57 that I can't do it myself...
 
10:00 therefore I must go
to somebody to help me.
  
10:03 S: Or I go to the pub, because
I see I can't do it for myself...
  
10:08 so I create the condition...
 
10:11 several things come from
my going to the pub...
  
10:14 1 is, I'm in despair
because...
  
10:16 I can't do it for myself
so I'm going to...
  
10:18 obliterate myself
through drink...
  
10:21 so I no longer
feel this pain.
  
10:23 B: At least for the moment.
 
10:24 S: Right. And also 2...
 
10:26 I'm proving to myself
that my image that...
  
10:28 I can't do it
for myself is right.
  
10:29 After all, look at me, I'm on
the ground, in the gutter!
  
10:32 You're going to deny that?
2nd of all...
  
10:36 by treating myself
in such a way...
  
10:39 I'm going to prove to you
that I can't do it myself.
  
10:42 May be I'll get you
to do it for me.
  
10:44 K: I think sir, we don't
realise, any of us...
  
10:47 the utter and absolute
importance...
  
10:51 of right relationship.
 
10:56 I don't think we realise it.
 
10:59 S: I agree with you, we don't.
 
11:00 K: With my wife, with my
neighbour, in the office...
  
11:02 wherever I am...
 
11:04 I don't think we realise
- with nature also...
  
11:08 a relationship
which is easy...
  
11:12 quiet, full, rich, happy...
 
11:18 the beauty of it,
the harmony of it.
  
11:21 We don't realise that.
 
11:23 Now, can we tell the ordinary
viewer, the listener...
  
11:29 the great importance of that?
 
11:31 S: Let's try.
 
11:33 How can we communicate
to somebody the value...
  
11:36 of a right relationship?
You are my wife.
  
11:39 You are whining, you
are nagging me. Right?
  
11:43 You think that
I should be doing...
  
11:45 something for you
when I'm tired...
  
11:47 and don't feel like
doing anything for you.
  
11:49 K: I know. Go to a party.
 
11:50 S: Right. 'Let's
go to the party...
  
11:53 you never take me out'.
 
11:55 K: Yes. (Laughs)
 
11:58 S: Right? 'You never
take me anywhere'.
  
12:00 B: Yes, making images.
 
12:02 K: Yes, so, how are you...
 
12:04 who realise the importance
of relationship...
  
12:09 to deal with me?
 
12:13 How are you to deal?
 
12:15 No, I mean, we've got
this problem in life!
  
12:20 B: I think it should be very clear
that nobody can do it for me.
  
12:24 Whatever somebody else does,
it won't reflect my relationship.
  
12:29 S: How are you going to make
that clear to somebody?
  
12:32 B: But isn't it obvious?
 
12:33 S: It's not obvious. I feel very
strongly - I'm the viewer...
  
12:37 I feel very strongly that you
ought to be doing it for me.
  
12:40 My mother never did it for me,
somebody has got to do it for me.
  
12:43 B: But, isn't it obvious
that it can't be done?
  
12:45 I'm saying that that's
just a delusion because...
  
12:49 whatever you do, I will be...
 
12:50 in the same relationship
as before.
  
12:53 Suppose you live a perfect life.
 
12:55 I can't imitate it so I'll just
go on as before, won't I?
  
13:00 So, I've to do something
myself. Isn't that clear?
  
13:06 S: But I don't feel able
to do anything myself.
  
13:09 B: But then can you see that if
you don't do anything yourself...
  
13:12 it's inevitable
that it must go on.
  
13:15 Any idea that it will ever
get better is a delusion.
  
13:18 S: Can we say that right
relationship begins...
  
13:22 with the realisation that
I have to do something for myself?
  
13:25 K: And the utter importance of it.
 
13:28 S: Right. The utter importance.
 
13:30 The responsibility
I have for myself.
  
13:33 K: Because you are the world.
S: Right.
  
13:35 K: And the world is you.
You can't shirk that.
  
13:40 B: Perhaps we could discuss that a
bit because it may seem strange...
  
13:43 to some of the viewers,
to say 'I'm the world'.
  
13:46 K: But after all, all that
you are thinking...
  
13:49 you are the result
of the culture...
  
13:51 the climate, the food,
the environment...
  
13:53 the economic conditions...
 
13:55 your grandparents, you
are the result of all that.
  
13:58 S: Well, you can see that.
 
14:00 B: That's right. That's
what you mean...
  
14:03 by saying you are the world.
 
14:05 S: I think you can see that in just
what I've been laying out here...
  
14:07 about the person
who feels that...
  
14:09 he's entitled to
be taken care of...
  
14:11 by the world, the world is in
fact moving in that direction...
  
14:14 of all the pleasure
and the technological...
  
14:17 K: No sir. This is a simple
fact. You go to India...
  
14:20 you see the same suffering,
the same anxiety...
  
14:22 and you come to
Europe, America...
  
14:24 in essence,
it is the same.
  
14:29 B: Each person has
the same basic...
  
14:31 structure of suffering
and confusion...
  
14:34 and deception and so on...
 
14:36 Therefore if I say
'I am the world'...
  
14:38 I mean that there is
a universal structure...
  
14:40 and it's part of me
and I'm part of that.
  
14:42 K: Part of that. So, now,
let's proceed from that.
  
14:49 The first thing you
have to tell me...
  
14:51 as an ordinary human being,
living in this mad rat race...
  
14:57 you have to tell me,
'Look, realise the utter...
  
15:02 greatest important thing
in life is relationship'.
  
15:08 You cannot have relationship...
 
15:10 if you have an image
about yourself...
  
15:13 or if you create a pleasurable
image and stick to that.
  
15:21 S: Or the image that you are
entitled to, it comes before...
  
15:25 K: Any form of image...
 
15:28 you have about another,
or about yourself...
  
15:31 prevents the beauty
of relationship.
  
15:34 S: Right.
 
15:35 B: Yes. The image that I'm secure
in such and such a situation...
  
15:39 for example, and not secure
in a different situation...
  
15:43 that prevents relationship.
K: That's right.
  
15:47 B: Because I will say...
 
15:49 I demand of the other
person that he put me...
  
15:51 in the situation that
I think is secure.
  
15:53 And then he may not want to.
 
15:55 S: Right. So that my relationship,
if I have the image...
  
15:59 of the pleasurable
relationship...
  
16:02 then all my actions
are with reference...
  
16:05 to this other person,
that I try...
  
16:08 to force him to move
me into doing that...
  
16:11 so that I have
(a) I say to him...
  
16:14 you should be this way because
that would complete my image...
  
16:17 (2) I have what I call claims
on the other person...
  
16:20 in other words, I expect
him to act in such a way...
  
16:23 that he acknowledges
that image.
  
16:26 B: Yes. Or I may say...
 
16:27 I have the image of what
is just and right and so on.
  
16:29 In other words, it's not that
it's personally so, but I say...
  
16:32 that would be the right way
for everybody to behave.
  
16:35 S: Right. In order to
complete my image.
  
16:38 B: Yes.
 
16:39 For example the wife says,
'Husbands ought to take...
  
16:42 their wives out to
parties frequently'.
  
16:45 that's part of the image.
 
16:46 S: Right.
 
16:47 B: Husbands have corresponding
images and therefore...
  
16:53 then that image gets hurt.
Do you see?
  
16:55 S: Right. Now...
 
16:57 I think we have to be very
specific about that each...
  
17:00 little piece of
this is with fury.
  
17:06 B: With energy.
 
17:07 S: Energy and fury,
necessity to...
  
17:09 complete this image
in relationship...
  
17:10 therefore relationship
gets forced into a mould.
  
17:13 K: Yes sir, I understand
all that. But you see...
  
17:18 most of us are not serious...
 
17:21 we want an easy life.
 
17:25 You come along and tell me...
 
17:27 'Look, relationship is
the greatest thing'.
  
17:29 I say, quite right.
 
17:30 And I carry on the old way.
 
17:36 What I'm trying to get at is...
 
17:39 What will make a human being...
 
17:43 listen to this, even
seriously for 2 minutes?
  
17:52 They won't listen to you.
S: Right.
  
17:56 K: If you went to one
of the big...
  
17:59 experts on psychology,
or whatever it is...
  
18:02 they won't take
time to listen to you.
  
18:05 They have got their plans...
 
18:07 their pictures, their
images - you follow?
  
18:09 they are surrounded
by all this.
  
18:13 So, to whom are we talking to?
 
18:18 S: We are talking to
ourselves. (Laughs)
  
18:20 K: No, not only that.
Whom are we talking to?
  
18:22 B: Well, whoever
is able to listen.
  
18:25 K: That means somebody
who is somewhat serious.
  
18:29 B: Yes.
 
18:31 And I think that we even may
form an image of ourselves...
  
18:34 as not being capable of
being serious, and so on.
  
18:37 K: That's right.
 
18:39 B: In other words,
that it's too hard.
  
18:40 K: Too hard, yes.
 
18:42 B: That's an image to say that...
 
18:44 I want it easy, which
means it comes...
  
18:45 from the image 'this is
beyond my capacity'.
  
18:48 K: Quite. So, let's
move from there.
  
18:53 We say, as long as
you have an image...
  
18:58 pleasant or unpleasant,
created... etc.
  
19:02 put together by thought...
 
19:04 and so on, there is
no right relationship.
  
19:07 That's an obvious fact.
 
19:10 S: Right.
 
19:11 B: And life ceases to have any
value without right relationship.
  
19:14 K: Yes.
 
19:16 Life ceases to have any value
without right relationship.
  
19:19 My consciousness is
filled with these images.
  
19:24 S: Right.
 
19:29 K: Right? And the images
make my consciousness.
  
19:34 S: That's right.
 
19:37 K: Now, you are asking me
to have no images at all.
  
19:44 That means no consciousness
as I know it now.
  
19:53 B: Yes...
 
19:55 Could we say that the major
part of consciousness...
  
19:57 is the self-image?
Is that what you are saying?
  
19:59 There may be some
other parts, but...
  
20:01 K: We will come to that.
B: We'll come to that later.
  
20:03 But most of it, for now
- we are mostly...
  
20:05 occupied with the self-image.
 
20:07 K: That's right.
 
20:10 S: What about the self-image?
 
20:12 And the whole way it
generates itself...
  
20:14 what do you think?
 
20:16 B: I think we discussed
that before...
  
20:18 it gets caught on thinking...
 
20:21 of the self as real, and that's
always implicit, to say...
  
20:26 for example, the
image may be that...
  
20:28 I'm suffering in
a certain way...
  
20:31 and I must get
rid of this suffering.
  
20:35 But there is always...
 
20:36 the implicit meaning in that
that 'I' am there real...
  
20:40 and therefore I must keep
on thinking about this reality.
  
20:45 And it gets caught
in that feedback...
  
20:47 we were talking about.
 
20:51 The thought feeds
back and builds up.
  
20:56 S: Builds up more images.
B: More images, yes.
  
20:58 S: More images. So that's
the consciousness.
  
21:00 K: I mean, the content
of my consciousness...
  
21:03 S: ...is all images.
K: ...is a vast series of images...
  
21:08 interrelated, not
separate, interrelated.
  
21:11 B: But they are all
centred on the self.
  
21:13 K: On the self, of course.
The self is the centre.
  
21:16 B: Yes, because they are all aimed
at, they are all for the self...
  
21:20 in order to make
the self right, correct.
  
21:24 And the self is regarded
as all important.
  
21:26 K: Yes.
 
21:27 B: That gives it
tremendous energy.
  
21:29 K: Now, what I'm getting at is...
 
21:32 you are asking me,
who am fairly serious...
  
21:35 fairly intelligent, as an
ordinary human being...
  
21:41 you are asking me to
empty that consciousness.
  
21:45 S: Right. I'm asking you to
stop this image making.
  
21:51 K: Not only the image making,
the images that I have...
  
21:56 and prevent further
image making.
  
21:58 S: Right, right.
K: Both are involved.
  
22:02 S: Yes, I'm asking you to look at
the machinery of consciousness.
  
22:05 K: Yes. Wait a minute.
I want to get at that.
  
22:09 This is very important...
 
22:10 S: OK. Let's go! (Laughter)
 
22:15 K: You are asking me,
and I want...
  
22:19 to understand you
because I really want...
  
22:23 to live a different
way of living...
  
22:28 because I see it's necessary.
 
22:32 I don't play with words.
I don't want to be highfalutin.
  
22:39 I want to deal with this thing.
 
22:44 You are asking me to
be free of the self...
  
22:50 which is the
maker of images...
  
22:54 and to prevent
further image-making.
  
22:58 S: Right.
 
23:01 K: And I say, 'please tell me
what to do, how to do it'.
  
23:10 And you tell me...
 
23:12 'When you ask me how to do it...
 
23:15 you are already building an
image, the system, the method'.
  
23:22 B: Yes, one could say, when
you say 'how am I to do it'...
  
23:25 you have already
put 'I' in the middle.
  
23:27 K: In the middle.
 
23:28 B: The same image as before
with a slightly different content.
  
23:31 K: So, you tell me don't
ever ask how to do it...
  
23:38 because the 'how'...
 
23:40 involves the 'me' doing it.
S: Right.
  
23:44 K: Therefore I'm creating
another picture.
  
23:46 B: So, that shows
the way you slip...
  
23:49 into it, because you
say 'how to do it'...
  
23:51 the word 'me' is not there
but it's there implicitly.
  
23:53 K: Implicitly, yes.
B: And therefore you slip in.
  
23:55 K: How am 'I' to do it
- of course.
  
23:57 B: But it usually
slips in because...
  
23:59 it's there implicitly
and not explicitly.
  
24:01 That's often the trick.
K: Explicit, yes.
  
24:06 S: Right.
 
24:07 K: Now, so you stop me and say
'then proceed from there'.
  
24:13 How am I to free
this consciousness...
  
24:20 even a corner of it,
a limited part of it...
  
24:29 What is the action
that will do it?
  
24:34 I want to discuss it with you.
 
24:36 Don't tell me how to do it.
I've understood this.
  
24:42 I will never again ask
'how to do it'.
  
24:45 The 'how', as he explained,
implies...
  
24:48 implicitly, the 'me' wanting to
do it, and therefore the 'me'...
  
24:53 is the factor
of the image maker.
  
24:55 K: I've understood that very
clearly. Then I say to you...
  
25:00 I realise this,
what am I to do?
  
25:06 S: Do you realise it?
 
25:07 K: Yes. I know it. I know I'm
making images all the time.
  
25:16 I'm very well aware.
S: Yes, but...
  
25:18 K: Wait. Let me finish.
I'm very well aware of it.
  
25:21 My wife calls me an idiot;
 
25:26 already registered
in the brain...
  
25:31 thought takes it over...
 
25:35 the image which I've
about myself is hurt.
  
25:39 S: Yes.
K: Right?
  
25:42 So, this process I know,
I'm very well aware of this.
  
25:45 S: Right.
 
25:47 K: Because I've discussed with
you. I've gone into it. Because...
  
25:51 I've realised right from
the beginning during these...
  
25:56 talks and dialogues...
 
25:58 that relationship is the
greatest importance in life;
  
26:02 without that life is chaos.
S: Got it.
  
26:06 K: That has been driven into me.
 
26:12 And I see every flattery
and every insult...
  
26:20 is registered in the brain.
 
26:27 And thought then takes
it over as memory...
  
26:32 and creates an image,
and the image gets hurt.
  
26:36 S: That's right.
 
26:37 B: When you say the
image is the hurt...
  
26:39 because the image
is the pleasure...
  
26:40 and with the new
content, of insult...
  
26:44 when the content is flattery
the image is pleasure...
  
26:46 and when the content is
insult the image is hurt.
  
26:49 S: Right.
 
26:51 K: So, Dr. Bohm, what is one
to do? What am I to do?
  
26:56 There are two things
involved in it...
  
26:59 1) to prevent further hurts...
 
27:04 and to be free of all
the hurts that I've had.
  
27:09 B: But they are both
the same principle.
  
27:11 K: I think - you explain to me...
 
27:14 I think there are 2
principles involved.
  
27:17 B: Are there?
 
27:19 K: One to prevent it, the other
to wipe away the hurts I have.
  
27:24 S: I want to put it a
little bit the other way.
  
27:26 It's not just that you want...
 
27:27 to prevent the
further hurt...
  
27:30 but it seems to me
you must first say...
  
27:32 how am I to be
aware of the fact...
  
27:35 that I take flattery. How
are you going to get aware?
  
27:41 Look, I want you to see
that if I flatter you...
  
27:45 you get a big inner gush...
 
27:48 you start feeling
big inside your belly...
  
27:51 and then you get
a fantasy about...
  
27:53 well if you are so
wonderful this way...
  
27:56 then you will be
twice as wonderful.
  
27:58 So now you have an image
of yourself as this...
  
28:00 wonderful person
who fits this flattery.
  
28:03 Now, I want you
to see yourself...
  
28:05 eat my candy.
 
28:07 K: No, you have told
me very clearly...
  
28:13 It's two sides of the same coin.
 
28:16 S: Right.
 
28:17 K: Pleasure and pain are
the same - the same.
  
28:23 S: Exactly the same.
K: Yes. You have told me that.
  
28:27 S: Right. I'm telling you that.
K: I've understood it.
  
28:30 B: They are both images.
 
28:31 K: Both images. So, please...
 
28:35 my question is not answered.
 
28:36 How am I, realising all this...
 
28:40 - I'm a fairly intelligent man.
I've read a great deal...
  
28:44 an ordinary man
- I personally don't read...
  
28:46 an ordinary man
I'm talking about.
  
28:50 - I've read a great deal...
 
28:52 I've discussed
this and I see...
  
28:54 how extraordinarily
important all this is.
  
28:58 And I say, I realise that...
 
29:04 they are the 2 sides
of the same coin.
  
29:09 The brain registers
and the whole...
  
29:12 thing begins. Now,
how am I to end that?
  
29:18 Not the 'how', not the method,
don't tell me what to do.
  
29:23 I won't accept it because
it means nothing to me.
  
29:28 Right, sir?
 
29:30 B: Well...
 
29:33 We were discussing whether
there is a difference between...
  
29:35 the stored up hurts and
the ones which are to come.
  
29:41 K: That's right.
 
29:41 That's the first thing I've
to understand. Tell me.
  
29:45 B: It seems to me
that fundamentally...
  
29:48 they also work on
the same principle.
  
29:51 K: How?
 
29:53 B: If you take the hurt
that is to come...
  
29:56 my brain is already
disposed to...
  
30:01 or set up to…
 
30:05 …to respond with an image.
 
30:07 K: No, I don't understand you.
Make it much simpler.
  
30:12 S: It seems to me...
I'll make it…
  
30:14 K: Ah, I'm asking him.
S: OK
  
30:16 K: You are an expert
at it. (Laughter)
  
30:18 You have dozens of victims...
 
30:21 he has only one victim here.
 
30:25 B: You see...
 
30:28 There is no distinction really
between the past hurts...
  
30:31 and the present one because
they all come from the past...
  
30:35 come from the
reaction of the past.
  
30:38 K: So, that's right.
You are telling me...
  
30:41 don't divide the past
hurt or the future...
  
30:46 because the image is the same.
B: Yes. The process is the same.
  
30:51 K: The process, therefore the
image is receiving. Right?
  
30:56 B: Yes. It really
doesn't matter...
  
31:00 because I may just be
reminded of the past hurt...
  
31:03 that's the same as somebody
else insulting me.
  
31:06 K: Yes, yes. So, you
are saying to me...
  
31:13 don't divide the past
or the future hurt...
  
31:18 there is only hurt...
 
31:23 there is only pleasure,
so, look at that.
  
31:30 Look at the image,
not in terms of...
  
31:33 the past hurts and
the future hurts...
  
31:36 but just look at
that image which is...
  
31:40 both the past and the future.
 
31:43 B: Yes.
K: Right?
  
31:46 B: We are saying
'Look at the image...
  
31:48 not in its particular content
but its general structure'.
  
31:51 K: Yes, yes, that's right.
Now, then...
  
31:54 my next question is,
how am I to look at it?
  
31:58 Because I've already an image,
with which I'm going to look.
  
32:07 That I must suppress it, you
promise to me by your words...
  
32:13 not promise exactly,
give me hope...
  
32:15 that if I have
right relationship...
  
32:18 I'll live a life that will be
extraordinarily beautiful...
  
32:22 I'll know what love is
and all the rest of it...
  
32:24 therefore I'm already
excited by this idea.
  
32:29 B: But then I have to be aware
of the image of that kind too.
  
32:33 K: Yes, yes. Therefore how am I
- that's my point...
  
32:36 How am I to look at this image?
 
32:42 I know I have an image,
not only one image...
  
32:48 but several images,
but the centre...
  
32:51 of that image is me, the 'I',
I know all that.
  
32:55 Now, how am I to look at it?
 
33:05 May we proceed now? Right.
 
33:11 Is the observer different from
that which he is observing?
  
33:17 B: Yes, well...
K: That's the real question.
  
33:19 B: ...that's the question.
 
33:21 You could say that's the root
of the power of the image.
  
33:23 K: Yes, yes. You see,
sir, what happens?
  
33:27 If there is a difference between
the observer and the observed...
  
33:31 there is that interval of time
in which other activities go on.
  
33:38 B: Well, yes, in which
the brain sort of...
  
33:41 eases itself into something
more pleasant.
  
33:43 K: Yes, yes.
 
33:45 B: Yes, that's all right.
 
33:48 K: And where there is a
division there is conflict.
  
33:52 So, you are telling
me to observe...
  
34:01 in a different way,
learn the art of observing...
  
34:05 which is...
 
34:09 that the observer
is the observed.
  
34:12 B: Yes, but I think we could look
first at our whole tradition...
  
34:16 our whole conditioning, which
is the observer is different...
  
34:18 from the observed.
K: Different, of course.
  
34:21 B: We should perhaps
look at that for a while.
  
34:23 K: Yes.
 
34:24 B: Because that's what
everybody feels.
  
34:27 K: Yes. That the observer
is different.
  
34:29 B: Yes. And I think it
ties up with what...
  
34:32 I was saying yesterday
about reality...
  
34:37 everything we think is
reality of some kind...
  
34:41 because at least it's
thought, real thought.
  
34:44 But we make a distinction...
 
34:47 in reality between
that reality which is...
  
34:49 self-reference,
self-sustaining...
  
34:52 it stands independent
of thought...
  
34:55 and the reality which
is sustained by thought.
  
34:57 K: Yes, reality sustained
by thought.
  
35:00 B: And the reality which may
have been made by man...
  
35:02 but it stands by itself...
 
35:04 like the table, or else
like nature which...
  
35:06 K: ...is different.
B: ...is different.
  
35:08 K: Yes, that we went
through the other day.
  
35:10 B: The observer,
ordinarily we think...
  
35:14 that when I'm
thinking of myself...
  
35:16 that self is a reality which is
independent of thought.
  
35:20 K: Yes, we think that's
independent of thought.
  
35:24 B: And that self is the
observer who is a reality.
  
35:29 K: Quite.
 
35:30 B: Who is independent
of thought and...
  
35:31 who is thinking, who
is producing thought.
  
35:34 K: But it's the product of thought.
B: Yes, but that's the confusion.
  
35:37 K: Yes, quite, quite.
 
35:41 Are you telling me sir,
as an outsider...
  
35:47 that the observer is
the result of the past?
  
35:53 B: Yes, one can see that.
 
35:55 K: My memories, my experiences,
all the rest, the past.
  
35:58 B: Yes, but I think if
we think of the viewer...
  
36:00 he might find
it a little hard...
  
36:02 to follow that, if
he hasn't gone into it.
  
36:06 S: Very hard, I think.
How to communicate it to...
  
36:09 K: Ah, wait, it's fairly simple.
S: What do you mean?
  
36:14 K: Don't you live in the past?
 
36:17 S: I think I exist in the past.
 
36:19 K: Wait, no, no.
Your life is the past.
  
36:23 You're living in
the past. Right?
  
36:26 S: That's right, yes.
 
36:28 K: Past memories,
past experiences.
  
36:29 S: Past memories, past becomings,
trying to become.
  
36:32 K: And from the past
you project the future.
  
36:35 'I hope it will be better,
I'll be good, I'll be different'.
  
36:39 It's always from the
past to the future.
  
36:42 S: Right.
That's how it's lived.
  
36:45 K: Now, I want to see...
 
36:48 that past is the 'me'...
 
36:53 of course.
 
36:54 B: But it does look as if it's
something independent...
  
36:56 just that you are looking at.
K: Is it independent?
  
36:59 B: It isn't but to see that...
 
37:01 K: I know, that's
why we are asking.
  
37:03 Is the 'me' independent
from the past?
  
37:07 B: It looks as if the 'me' is
here looking at the past.
  
37:09 K: Of course, quite.
 
37:13 The 'me' is in a jar,
in a cage (laughs)...
  
37:17 and that is looking. Quite.
 
37:19 S: That's right.
 
37:21 K: But the 'me' is the
product of the past.
  
37:25 S: You can see that, but what's
that jump that we go through...
  
37:29 where we say...
 
37:31 - I can say to you,
'I can see that...
  
37:33 I'm the product of the
past. I can see that'.
  
37:36 K: How do you see it?
B: Intellectually.
  
37:38 S: I see it intellectually.
K: Then you don't see it.
  
37:41 S: That's what I'm coming to.
K: Then you are playing tricks.
  
37:44 S: Right. I see it as
an intellectual...
  
37:50 That's right. I see
it intellectually.
  
37:53 K: Do you see this
intellectually?
  
37:54 S: No.
K: Why?
  
37:56 S: There is an immediacy
of perception there.
  
37:59 K: In the same way,
why isn't there...
  
38:01 an immediacy of
perception of a truth...
  
38:03 which is, that
you are the past?
  
38:06 Not to make it an
intellectual affair.
  
38:08 S: Because time comes in.
 
38:10 I imagine that I've
gone through time.
  
38:12 K: What do you mean imagine?
 
38:14 S: I've an image
of myself at 3...
  
38:16 I've an image
of myself at 10...
  
38:19 and I've an image of myself
at 17, and I say that...
  
38:22 they followed in sequence
in time, and I see myself...
  
38:25 having developed over time.
 
38:28 I'm different now than
I was 5 years ago.
  
38:31 K: Are you?
 
38:33 S: I'm telling you that's
how I've got that image.
  
38:37 That image is of a
developmental sequence.
  
38:40 K: I understand all that, sir.
S: In time. Right?
  
38:42 B: Yes.
 
38:44 S: And I exist as a storehouse
of memories of a bunch of...
  
38:50 accumulated incidents.
 
38:52 K: That means, time
has produced that.
  
38:56 S: Right. That's time.
I see that.
  
39:00 K: What is time?
 
39:01 S: I've just described it to you.
 
39:03 Time is my memories,
is a movement in memory.
  
39:06 K: It's a movement.
 
39:08 It's a movement.
S: That's right.
  
39:13 K: The movement from the past.
 
39:16 S: Right. I've moved from
the time I was 3.
  
39:21 K: From the past,
it's a movement.
  
39:22 S: That's right. From
3 to 10, 17.
  
39:25 K: I understand.
It's a movement.
  
39:29 Now, is that movement
an actuality?
  
39:36 S: What do you mean by actuality?
 
39:38 B: Or is it an image?
K: Eh?
  
39:40 B: Is it an image or
is it an actual fact?
  
39:42 K: Yes.
 
39:43 B: I mean...
 
39:44 If I have an image of myself
as saying, 'I need this'...
  
39:48 but that may not be
an actual fact. Right?
  
39:51 K: Image is not a fact.
 
39:55 S: But I feel...
 
39:56 K: Ah, no. What you feel is
like saying 'my experience'.
  
40:00 Your experience may be
the most absurd experience.
  
40:03 S: No, but that's
casting me aside...
  
40:05 by saying 'look, you
have got this going on'.
  
40:08 This is a fact, I'm
describing an actual...
  
40:11 B: But that's just
the whole point...
  
40:13 about the image,
is that it imitates...
  
40:15 an actual fact, do you see?
You get the feeling it's real.
  
40:18 In other words, I feel that I'm
really there, an actual fact...
  
40:21 looking at the past, how
I've developed, right?
  
40:23 S: Right.
 
40:24 B: But is that a fact
that I'm doing that?
  
40:27 S: What do you mean?
 
40:29 It's an actual fact
that I get the feeling...
  
40:31 that I'm looking at it.
 
40:32 B: Yes, but is it an actual fact
that that's the way it all is...
  
40:37 and was and so on...
 
40:38 that all the implications
of that are correct.
  
40:43 S: No, it's not an actuality.
 
40:45 I can see the incorrectness
of my memory...
  
40:48 which constructs me in time.
 
40:51 Obviously I was much more
at 3 than I can remember...
  
40:54 I was much more at
10 than I can remember...
  
40:58 and there was much more going
on obviously in actuality...
  
41:02 at 17 than I have in my memory.
 
41:05 B: Yes, but now the 'me'
who is here and now...
  
41:08 is looking at all that.
 
41:10 S: That's right.
 
41:11 B: But is he there
and is he looking?
  
41:13 That's the question.
 
41:14 S: Is the me...
K: ...an actuality?
  
41:18 S: ...an actuality.
K: As this is.
  
41:26 S: Well, let's...
K: Stick to it.
  
41:28 S: That's what I'm going to do.
 
41:30 What is an actuality
is this development...
  
41:35 this image of a
developmental sequence.
  
41:38 B: And the me who
is looking at it.
  
41:40 S: And the me who is looking
at it, right. That's right.
  
41:44 B: I think that's one of the things
we slip out, because we say...
  
41:47 there is the developmental
sequence objectively...
  
41:51 implying 'me'
is looking at it...
  
41:52 like I'm looking
at the plant.
  
41:54 S: Right.
 
41:55 B: But it may be,
or in fact it is...
  
41:57 that the 'me' who
is looking at it...
  
41:59 is an image as is the
developmental sequence.
  
42:04 S: Right. You are saying then
that this image of 'me' is...
  
42:10 K: ...is non-reality,
it's no reality.
  
42:13 B: Well, the only reality
is that it's thought.
  
42:15 K: Yes.
 
42:16 B: It's not a reality
independent of thinking.
  
42:18 K: So, we must go back to
find out what is reality.
  
42:22 K: Reality, we said, is everything
that thought has put together.
  
42:27 the table, the illusion,
the churches, the nations...
  
42:33 everything that
thought has contrived...
  
42:35 put together, is reality.
 
42:38 But nature is not reality.
S: Right.
  
42:41 K: Is not put together by
thought, but it's a reality.
  
42:45 B: It's a reality independent
of thought.
  
42:46 K: Independent of thought.
S: Right.
  
42:48 B: But you see, is the 'me'
who is looking, a reality...
  
42:52 that's independent
of thought like nature?
  
42:55 K: That's the whole point.
You have understood?
  
42:58 S: Yes, I'm beginning to see.
 
43:01 Let me ask you a question...
 
43:03 Can you say anything about
the difference for you...
  
43:07 between your...
 
43:10 No, that's not fair.
I was going to say...
  
43:14 Is there any difference
for you...
  
43:15 between this perception,
perception of this...
  
43:18 and your perception
of the 'me'?
  
43:23 K: This is real,
'me' is not real.
  
43:25 S: 'Me' is not real, but
your perception of 'me'?
  
43:28 K: It doesn't exist.
 
43:31 B: Suppose...
 
43:32 S: Your perception of the image.
 
43:35 K: I have no image. if I have
no image, where is the 'me'?
  
43:39 S: But I have
an image of 'me'.
  
43:41 What is my perception of 'me'?
 
43:44 B: Could I put it another way?
 
43:45 Suppose you are watching
a conjuring trick...
  
43:46 and you perceive a woman
being sawed in half.
  
43:50 And then when you see
the trick you say...
  
43:52 What's your perception
of this woman...
  
43:54 who is being sawed in half?
 
43:55 It isn't because she isn't
being sawed in half.
  
43:59 I'm trying to say as
long as you don't see...
  
44:01 through the trick, what
you see apparently real...
  
44:05 is somebody
being cut in half.
  
44:08 But you have missed certain
points, but when you see...
  
44:12 the points that
you have missed...
  
44:14 you don't see anybody
being cut in half.
  
44:16 S: Right.
 
44:18 B: You just see a trick.
 
44:20 S: So I have missed
the essence of it.
  
44:23 K: No sir, just let's be simple.
 
44:26 We said...
 
44:30 we have images...
 
44:36 I know I have images, and
you tell me to look at it...
  
44:41 to be aware of it,
to perceive the image.
  
44:47 Is the perceiver different
from the perceived?
  
44:51 That's all my question.
S: I know. I know.
  
44:55 K: Because if he is different...
 
44:57 then the whole
process of conflict...
  
44:59 will go on endlessly. Right?
But if there is no division...
  
45:05 the observer is the observed...
 
45:08 then the whole
problem changes.
  
45:10 S: Right.
 
45:12 K: Right?
 
45:13 So is the observer different
from the observed?
  
45:24 Obviously, not.
 
45:27 So, can I look at that image
without the observer?
  
45:34 And is there an image when
there is no observer?
  
45:40 Because the observer
makes the image...
  
45:43 because the observer
is the movement of thought.
  
45:48 B: We shouldn't call
it the observer then...
  
45:50 because it's not looking.
 
45:52 The language is confusing.
K: The language, yes.
  
45:54 B: Because if you say 'it's an
observer' that implies that...
  
45:56 something is looking.
K: Yes, quite.
  
45:58 B: What you are really
meaning is that...
  
46:00 thought is moving and
creating an image...
  
46:02 as if it were looking but
nothing is being seen.
  
46:06 Therefore there is no observer.
 
46:07 K: Quite right. But put
it round the other way...
  
46:10 is there a thinking
without thought?
  
46:13 B: What?
 
46:14 K: Is there a thinker
without thought?
  
46:17 S: No.
 
46:19 K: Exactly. There you are!
 
46:24 If there is no experiencer
is there an experience?
  
46:35 So, you have asked me
to look at my image...
  
46:41 and you said, look at it...
 
46:44 which is a very serious
and very penetrating demand.
  
46:54 You say, look at it
without the observer...
  
47:00 because the observer
is the image-maker...
  
47:03 and if there is no observer...
 
47:06 if there is no thinker,
there is no thought. Right?
  
47:11 So, there is no image.
 
47:16 You have shown me something
enormously significant.
  
47:22 S: As you said, the question
changes completely.
  
47:25 K: Completely. It's gone,
I have no image.
  
47:28 S: It feels completely different.
It's like, there is a silence.
  
47:33 K: So, I was saying,
as my consciousness...
  
47:38 is the consciousness
of the world...
  
47:43 because in essence...
 
47:47 it's filled with the things
of thought, sorrow...
  
47:51 fear, pleasure,
despair, anxiety...
  
47:55 attachment, detachment,
hope...
  
47:59 it's a turmoil of confusion...
 
48:05 a sense of deep agony
is involved in it all.
  
48:11 And in that state you cannot
have any relationship...
  
48:17 with any human being.
 
48:20 So, you say to me...
 
48:23 to have the greatest and the
most responsible relationship...
  
48:30 is to have no image.
 
48:33 S: That's to be responsive
to 'what is'.
  
48:36 K: Don't translate it.
 
48:38 S: It is. I mean, this means
to be responsive.
  
48:40 K: Yes.
S: To open it up.
  
48:42 K: So, you have
pointed out to me...
  
48:44 that to be free of images...
 
48:49 the maker of image
must be absent...
  
48:52 the maker of the
image is the past...
  
48:55 is the observer who says...
 
48:56 'I like this',
'I don't like this'...
  
48:59 'It's my wife, my
husband, my house'...
  
49:01 you follow?
 
49:03 the 'me', who is in
essence the image.
  
49:09 So, you see,
I've understood this.
  
49:13 Now, the next question is...
 
49:17 Is the image...
 
49:20 deep, hidden?
Are the images hidden...
  
49:24 which I can't grapple,
which I can't get hold of?
  
49:29 You follow, sir?
 
49:31 Are they in the cave,
in the underground...
  
49:35 somewhere hidden...
 
49:37 which you have
told me there are...
  
49:41 all you experts
have told me...
  
49:43 'Yes, there are dozens
of underground images'.
  
49:50 How am I, because
I accept you…
  
49:53 I say 'Yes, by Jove,
they must know...
  
49:54 they know much
more than I do...
  
49:56 therefore they say so'.
So I accept it. I say...
  
50:00 'Yes, there are
underground images.
  
50:03 Now, how am I to unearth them...
 
50:05 expose them, out?'
 
50:10 You see, you have put
me, the ordinary man...
  
50:13 into a terrible position.
 
50:17 S: You don't have
to unearth them...
  
50:20 if this is clear to
you there is no...
  
50:23 K: But you have established
already in me the poison.
  
50:28 S: You don't exist anymore.
Once it's clear to you...
  
50:34 that the observer
is the observed...
  
50:37 K: Therefore you are saying
there is no unconscious.
  
50:40 S: Right.
K: Ah! You, the expert?
  
50:42 S: No, I said... (laughs)
 
50:46 K: You, who talk endlessly about
unconscious to your patients?
  
50:50 S: No, I don't. (Laughs)
 
50:53 K: Therefore you say
there is no unconscious?
  
50:56 S: Right.
 
50:58 K: I agree with you!
I say, it is so.
  
51:01 S: Right.
 
51:03 K: The moment when you see
the observer is the observed...
  
51:07 the observer is the maker
of images, it's finished.
  
51:11 S: Finished. Right.
K: Right through.
  
51:15 S: If you really see that.
 
51:16 K: That's it!
 
51:21 So, the consciousness which I
know, in which we've lived...
  
51:32 has undergone a tremendous
transformation.
  
51:37 Has it? Has it to you?
 
51:39 S: Mm.
 
51:39 K: No, sir, I mean, don't…
has it to you?
  
51:44 And if I may ask,
Dr. Bohm, both...
  
51:46 all of us, realising that
the observer is the observed...
  
51:54 and therefore the image-maker
is no longer in existence...
  
51:59 and so, the content
of consciousness...
  
52:04 which makes up consciousness...
 
52:06 is not as we know it.
 
52:10 Right? What then?
 
52:25 We've got 5 minutes.
 
52:34 S: I don't know how
to answer you there.
  
52:36 K: Sir, this is...
- you follow?
  
52:38 I'm asking this
question because...
  
52:45 it involves meditation.
 
52:49 I'm asking this question...
 
52:51 because all religious people,
the really serious ones...
  
52:55 I'm not talking of the gurus
and all their flummery...
  
53:02 the real serious people...
 
53:04 who have gone
into this question...
  
53:08 as long as we
live in daily life...
  
53:13 within the area of
this consciousness...
  
53:17 - of anxiety, fear and
all the rest of it...
  
53:19 with all its images,
and the image-maker...
  
53:23 whatever we do will still
be in that area. Right?
  
53:32 I may join one year Zen, become
a Zen, shave my head...
  
53:36 and do all kinds of stuff...
 
53:38 then another year, I go
and become some guru…
  
53:42 follow some guru, and so on,
but it's always within that area.
  
53:49 S: Right.
 
53:50 K: So, what happens when
there is no movement of thought...
  
53:58 which is the image making,
what then takes place?
  
54:02 You understand my question?
 
54:06 When time, which
is the movement...
  
54:08 of thought, ends,
then what is there?
  
54:20 Because you have led
me up to this point.
  
54:25 I understand it very well.
I've tried Zen Buddhism...
  
54:29 I've tried Zen meditation,
I've tried Hindu meditation...
  
54:32 I've tried all
the kinds of...
  
54:35 miserable practices
and all that...
  
54:37 and I meet you,
I hear you and I say...
  
54:40 'By Jove, this is something...
 
54:41 extraordinary, what these
people are saying.
  
54:45 They say, the moment…
 
54:48 when there is no image-maker...
 
54:53 the content of consciousness...
 
54:55 undergoes a radical
transformation...
  
54:59 and thought comes to an end...
 
55:04 except when it absolutely
has its right place...
  
55:07 knowledge and
all the rest of it'.
  
55:09 So, thought comes to an
end, time has a stop.
  
55:14 What then?
Do you understand?
  
55:17 Is that death?
 
55:21 S: It's the death of the self.
 
55:22 K: No, no. We've got
3 minutes more...
  
55:31 we've got 1 minute more.
 
55:33 S: This is the same
as self destruction.
  
55:35 K: No, no, sir. It's much
more than that.
  
55:39 S: It's the end of something.
 
55:40 K: No, no. Just listen to it.
 
55:45 When thought stops, when
there is no image-maker...
  
55:50 there is a complete
transformation...
  
55:53 in consciousness...
 
55:57 because there is no anxiety,
there is no fear...
  
56:00 there is no pursuit
of pleasure...
  
56:02 there is none
of the things...
  
56:03 that create turmoil,
division, and what...
  
56:07 comes into being,
or what happens?
  
56:12 Not as an experience
because that's out.
  
56:15 What takes place in there?
 
56:19 Because - you follow?
I've to find out.
  
56:25 You may be leading me up
the wrong path!
  
56:36 I think we should stop.