Krishnamurti - Is there a different way of helping the student to learn?

Krishnamurti Subtitles

BR76DSS2.2 - Is there a different way of helping the student to learn?
Brockwood Park, UK - 30 September 1976
Discussion with Staff and Students 2.2

0:19	Krishnamurti: Will you allow me to talk about what we had a dialogue on the other day with the students, may I go into that?
0:35	May I? You don't mind? Right.
0:47	Several of the students asked that we should talk about fear, fear of the future, facing the monstrous world when they leave here, or fear of the past, and fear that exists now.
1:25	Most of them felt – if I may repeat what they said, and I hope they don't mind – most of them said they were not afraid of Brockwood, at least for the present.
1:45	And we went into the question of fear a little bit, and we shall go on further, but out of that conversation the one thing that came out was that most people are hurt, especially when one is young, hurt by their parents, by their fellow students or friends, and the principal fear, it seems to me, was not to get hurt, and whether it was possible at all to be free of any form of hurt, all through life, not just while they are here, but right through all their days and nights and years, never to get hurt.
3:03	We talked a great deal about that, if one is hurt what takes place: resistance, withdrawal, isolation, and therefore more hurts, and so on.
3:22	And when one is deeply hurt the reaction is violence, hatred, anger, frustration and so on.
3:37	So we talked about whether it was possible at all to be free completely, never being able to be hurt.
3:52	Now can we, this morning here, go into that question.
3:59	The staff and ourselves together, go into this question.
4:06	While the students are here is it possible for us who are somewhat responsible for them, to see or help them not to get hurt.
4:30	One gets hurt when one compares what one is with another, or when the older people, older generation compare A against B, and therefore there is that hurt. Is it possible to avoid every form of comparison in our studies, in our reports, in our studies, is it possible not to compare one student against the other?
5:21	Are you interested in all this?
5:30	So that when you leave here you have understood the whole meaning of being hurt, what it implies, and to be free of the picture that you have about yourself, which gets hurt.
5:56	And one of the factors of this hurt is comparison, comparing yourself with another.
6:07	You are not so beautiful as the other, or not so intelligent, or haven't the capacity – this constant comparison which inevitably takes place in all schools, unfortunately.
6:29	So can we prevent that taking place here at Brockwood?
6:45	This is a dialogue, please. We explained the other day what a dialogue was, a conversation between two friends about a subject in which both of them are deeply interested.
7:02	And can we discuss this thing?
7:09	Is it possible to prevent, while they are here, in their studies, in their play, while they eat, etc., during the day, and the activities of the day, to see the process of making a picture about oneself and getting hurt because one has a picture about oneself?
7:41	Now, is that possible here? Because to have a mind, a brain that has never been hurt, I don't know if we understand the importance of it.
7:58	Never been hurt – then it is healthy, sane, there are no neurotic thoughts, no neurotic activities, it is totally healthy, clean, young.
8:19	And can this be brought about through our education here?
8:28	Please, let's talk about it together.
8:38	If I have a picture about myself, that I am rather silly, that I am not as beautiful as you are, that I am not as clever as someone, that I have not capacity, so that picture gets strengthened by various incidents, by a certain quick response from others.
9:18	Or you may think, I am very beautiful, I am very clever, I am an extraordinary person, and when that picture is challenged, then there is that hurt also.
9:31	Now, can all this process be stopped?
9:38	Not to have a picture about oneself, which is extremely important, and to go into it demands a great deal of attention and inquiry, can this be brought about at Brockwood?
9:58	Apart from our curricular, academic life. Or through the academic life, also bring this fact into being.
10:13	Can we do this together, as a community, living here at Brockwood, a small group, to find out whether it is possible not to get hurt and not to have a picture about oneself, which will inevitably get hurt through life.
10:38	After all that is one of the reasons for the existence of Brockwood, to bring about a different human being.
10:50	Can we, will you please? Joe Zorskie: When I was a student, 15 and 16 years old, the school that I was in used competition, and all the staff members, in fact the whole school system used competition to get more work out of the students.
11:12	Grades were very important, A, B, C, D, comparative grades. Gold stars were given, there were beauty contests to decide who was the most beautiful girl, the most handsome boy, all the sports teams would play against the...
11:30	K: Everything around us is competitive. Our whole society and education is structured on that.
11:44	I think we are all quite familiar with that, our whole social life and religious life, everything is competition.
11:55	The local priest wants to become the bishop, the bishop wants to become the archbishop, then the archbishop, the cardinal or the Pope.
12:02	and the same thing in the business world, the same thing in schools, colleges.
12:09	We know all this. Can we prevent this here, and yet bring about a good mind, a clear mind, a mind that thinks clearly, a mind that is educated, not merely academically but deeply educated so that it is innately intelligent.
12:51	Is this possible here?
12:59	Karl Talbot: Could we go into why we compete?
13:06	Why do we compete with each other?
13:10	K: It is part of our tradition, part of our habit, part of our education. The family: in the family they say, you are not as good as your brother – the whole thing.
13:21	Why do we do it? Probably because of habit, tradition, and the whole world works on this principle of competition, you are better than I am, you have more money, the whole thing is based on this.
13:46	Jim Fowler: Speaking as a teacher, it is easier to get more work out of a student by comparing them.
13:50	K: Wait, let's find out. Do you get more work out of the students: you say I will twist you, make you work, so it is more work for you.
14:06	Is there not a different way of helping the student to work, to learn, isn't it, to learn about himself, about mathematics, about the world – to learn?
14:26	Learning is not competition. It isn't: I know more than you do. I may, but learning is never competitive.
14:47	Am I saying something revolutionary or stupid?
14:56	I want to learn. No, I won't say that. Let's find out what learning is first, shall we? Start with that. The students and most of us are here to learn. What does it mean to learn?
15:23	The quality of learning, not learning about something. Learning, and learning about something are two different things, aren't they? No? Oh, come on.
15:43	As we said the other day, when we were talking with the students, there is fear of something or fear about something, and fear by itself.
15:59	Are there two different things, fear by itself and fear about something?
16:08	Or there is no such thing as fear by itself, but only fear about something.
16:20	Now, what do we mean by learning? Please, go with me a little bit, will you?
16:31	What does it mean to learn?
16:38	What is the act of learning? As far as we see, in one direction, it is gathering information about various subjects, mathematics, geography, history, archaeology, physics, about something, and storing up what you have learned in the brain.
17:04	Right? You learn mathematics from somebody and learn in order to acquire all that the educator teaches and store it up in the brain so that you can use it later in life.
17:25	If you become an engineer, a physicist, a mathematician, a businessman, you need to learn about mathematics so you store it up.
17:36	Right? Do please say yes or no. Go into it with me. Then that is, you store it up, use it as skilfully, as carefully, with capacity when you are doing a job.
18:02	As a secretary or as a businessman, as a foreman, as a worker, it doesn't matter what, professor.
18:10	So you use what you have acquired about physics, skilfully through life.
18:20	Right? That is one way, that is what we use all the time, learn, store it up, and act.
18:35	You follow this? That makes the mind mechanical, doesn't it, the brain mechanical.
18:46	I have learned how to drive a car, and after driving several years it becomes automatic.
18:58	So, that kind of learning makes the brain mechanical.
19:06	I wonder if you see this. Tony Rose: That part of the brain is mechanical, it can store that sort of information, rather than that sort of storing makes the brain mechanical.
19:21	K: No, that kind of storing makes the mind mechanical.
19:28	And in a certain area that is necessary.
19:35	When I drive a car, when I learn a language, anything there, technologically, certain mechanical responses are necessary.
19:47	That is one kind of learning, isn't it: storing up information, and using that information in life – that is one kind of learning.
20:01	Now, is there another kind of learning which is totally non-mechanical?
20:11	You understand what I am talking about? Please, do play a little attention, will you? We said there is this kind of mechanical learning. I am asking is there another kind of learning which is non-mechanistic, which is all the time learning, therefore never storing up?
20:47	It is very difficult to convey this verbally, but we are going to do this. We understand the first, the mechanical process of learning, utilising it throughout life.
21:03	That is mechanistic. We know that. And those mechanistic responses are necessary. That is clear. Now, I am asking: is there a non-mechanistic learning or way of living?
21:30	Have you understood the question I am asking?
21:40	Q: The eagerness to investigate into matters, would you consider that as mechanical?
21:47	K: No, Tunki, look – I am glad you are here. We are old friends, we have been at this for years – You understand, Tunki, what we say: mechanistic way of learning?
22:07	That is clear, isn't it. You learn about the aeroplane, how to build it, and it becomes almost mechanical, you can go on with it, improve it more and more but it is still mechanical.
22:26	And we reduce that way, the whole of life as a mechanical process.
22:36	I go to the office every day for the next 50 years, and earn money, all that is a mechanistic process of living – I believe in God or don't believe in God, I have ideas – it is all mechanistic.
22:56	So thought is mechanistic. Right?
23:07	So I am asking, is there a way of living which is not mechanistic, though in certain areas it has to be mechanical?
23:24	You have understood my question? Now find out: is there a way of living which is non-repetitive?
23:37	Q: What is wrong with the mechanical way of thinking?
23:40	K: What is wrong? That makes our whole life a routine, a repetitive thing, therefore a boring thing, therefore to escape from the boring thing we do other mechanistic processes.
24:00	It is not wrong. We are saying a mechanistic way of living we know very well, our whole life, apparently, for centuries upon centuries has been mechanistic.
24:16	Someone comes along, like you for example, says to me, look, is there a different, non-mechanistic way of looking at life and living it?
24:29	You understand my question? That is all. I don't say that is wrong – on the contrary, in the technological area mechanical responses are necessary.
24:41	That is understood, let's forget that.
24:49	So what is learning which is not mechanistic?
25:02	Does this interest you all? Or you are just bored, or you are a captive audience. You know what a captive audience is? An audience, you have to be here at 11:00, 11:30, therefore you have to listen, you are forced to listen.
25:25	Are you in that position? No, thank God. At least you say no, but the rest may say, I dare not say what I really feel.
25:42	So I want to find out whether there is a way of living which isn't merely repetitive, constantly going through the same routine, the same way of living, the same way of thinking.
26:03	And that may be the most intelligent way of living.
26:25	What do you say, sirs? What do you say, Mr. Joe? Come on, discuss with me, for the benefit of the others.
26:35	JZ: How are you going to approach that question?
26:41	K: Let's approach it. First, be very clear that the mechanistic way of living is necessary in certain areas.
26:59	And don't let's go back to it again, and say, do you mean this? There it is absolutely necessary. And if I live, if my brain is mechanistic all the time, responding mechanistically, then it gets terribly boring.
27:24	And because it gets boring I try to escape from that, by various illusory, non-reasoned ways of behaviour – amusements of various kinds, beliefs of various kinds, I live in illusion.
27:52	So, I recognise that to live non-mechanistically is to live a totally different kind of way of life.
28:08	Now, how am I to approach this whole problem? That is your question – right?
28:17	JZ: You also are suggesting that there are areas of life in which we could see that the mechanistic approach is going to lead to trouble.
28:31	If we could see that more clearly.
28:34	K: I understand. Don't you see that very clearly, all of you? That a mechanistic way of living leads to a great deal of trouble?
28:51	Mary Zimbalist: But perhaps we don't see the two areas, where the division is between them, what falls into one area and what falls into another.
29:01	K: No, we have put the first question, which is: do we all see a mechanistic way of living leads to a great deal of trouble?
29:15	MZ: Where? K: In life.
29:18	MZ: But you just said that in certain areas...
29:21	K: Wait, I know. No, I am answering Mr. Joe's question, which is, he says: do we all see clearly that the mechanistic way of living leads to a great deal of trouble?
29:38	Great danger in fact? Which is, a mechanistic way of living is to accept tradition.
29:50	Like war is a tradition, nationalism is a tradition, romantic tradition, and so on.
29:59	All that leads to great danger. Do we see that? That is his first question.
30:06	MZ: But again, that is an area where it is perhaps clear to us all that it is dangerous.
30:14	But if you said, if I am driving a car, it is not dangerous to act more or less mechanically.
30:24	K: No, we made that very clear. Donald Dennis: Perhaps she also means, if I am in a class learning mathematics, do I have to learn it mechanically?
30:40	K: No. Have you understood Mr. Joe's question? Which is, he asks: do we all recognise that though there are certain areas where technological, mechanistic responses are necessary, do we recognise that the way we live mechanically is a most dangerous way of living?
31:13	JZ: Especially, as we often discuss here, when we try to mechanically take care of the relationship between people.
31:25	K: That is right. Lord, we must go into all that.
31:31	JZ: I think so, yes.
31:46	K: Can we put the question differently? Is love mechanistic?
32:04	That is too difficult. Nom d'un chien! Shakuntala Narayan: We would have to ask what love is in that case, go into it.
32:24	K: You see my difficulty?
32:32	You see, I have got a problem. My problem is: I recognise very clearly certain areas of one's life need to be mechanistic, driving a car, learning a language, doing certain skills and so on, they are mechanistic.
32:59	And is my relationship with you, with another, mechanistic?
33:07	Dorothy Simmons: I don't really see why anything has to be mechanistic, if you were living really rightly and attentively.
33:14	K: No, mechanistic in the sense, I learn a language, Italian or French, and it is stored up in the memory, and I can use it.
33:29	It can be used well or not well. And the more I speak it the better it becomes.
33:37	DS: I don't see that as being mechanistic.
33:39	K: I call that mechanistic. It may not be.
33:44	DS: I don't think you can drive a car mechanistically.
33:46	K: I drive a car, but it is almost automatic, but one has to be aware a certain amount.
33:56	It is not blind, mechanical driving, then you will end up in a ditch.
34:01	DS: I don't see why we need to do anything mechanistically, even catching a train, cleaning your teeth. Doris Pratt: But we do, actually.
34:08	DS: But the fact is we needn't if we are really attentive.
34:10	MZ: Must we be attentive to things that are physical?
34:14	K: Are you objecting to the word 'mechanical'?
34:17	DS: Yes.
34:19	K: All right, we will take away that word. We will use a different word. What word would you like to use?
34:30	DS: Habitual. K: Habitual?
34:34	Q: I don't know what it means.
34:36	K: Habitual? You have a habit, and keep on repeating that habit over and over and over again.
34:47	I believe in something and that becomes habitual.
34:53	DS: But isn't a habit, in a way, a habit of doing something?
34:57	K: A habit of doing something. DS: It needn't be a habit.
35:01	K: So what word would you like to use to describe what we have been talking about up to now?
35:15	Not mechanical – you object to that. Habitual – you object to that. Then what other word?
35:22	DS: Unaware. K: Unaware.
35:29	Q: I don't seem to understand what you really mean by mechanical.
35:37	K: Tunki, that is what we are examining. We are all saying, don't use that word 'mechanistic'. Then I said, all right, I will drop that word. Then somebody suggested, use the word 'habitual'. All right. Somebody else objects to that word. Stephen Smith: Could we use a term like 'learned skill'? As we are trying to investigate what learning is, and we are trying to draw a distinction between learning and that which is learned and applied, could we call that which is learned and applied a learned skill?
36:08	K: All right. Would you object to that – learning a skill?
36:12	SS: A learned skill.
36:14	DS: Well, I think if you really are attentive to what you are doing you don't learn finally anything, you are learning about it.
36:23	DP: But that is inefficient, we are not perfect. This difference agitates the situation.
36:29	DP: The difference is the fact that we are living in it.
36:33	JF: But do we want to learn about cleaning our teeth every morning?
36:37	DS: You might do it really properly and well instead of just sort of putting the toothbrush in your mouth, but you might really think why you are cleaning your teeth and do it in a correct sort of way and pay attention when you are doing it, then it is not mechanical.
36:56	K: Would you, Mrs. D, accept what Mr. Smith said, a word like 'learning skill', not a skill, but learning skill.
37:11	Would you object to that?
37:15	SN: Isn't the difference that one is based on memory? Isn't the difference that what you call mechanistic is based on memory, which includes cleaning your teeth or learning mathematics?
37:27	K: Yes, all right, anything based on memory is what?
37:35	Habitual? Mechanistic? What?
37:42	Q: A pattern. K: A pattern, what?
37:48	JZ: You see, I think Dorothy would agree, I think you would agree with this: if you were learning to ride a bicycle, it requires a coordination between hundreds of muscles, and there is a certain judgement to know what to do at any instant to keep from falling off the bicycle.
38:10	But once you learn that, you don't have to learn it every time, you can then get on the bicycle and go.
38:18	Once you have learned how to do that it is quite mechanical, you know exactly what to do to keep the bicycle going. You could then become creative by making turns and become very graceful, but you never forget how to ride a bicycle, apparently, once you know how to ride.
38:35	And so I think it is a proper use of the word 'mechanical' in that. You don't learn it every time you get on a bicycle. K: Three cheers!
38:42	JZ: You use that and you go beyond it.
38:46	K: I am glad somebody agrees.
38:49	MZ: Would it help to consider bringing these two things together? Consider playing a musical instrument. You need a certain skill, you need to practise, but if you just play it mechanically you play, well, boringly.
39:03	TR: Are there two meanings of the word, one is necessary and the other one is slightly...
39:14	One is technique and the other one is dead. It is technique in one and it is dead in the other, and we have to differentiate the two parts.
39:26	Like when you are riding a bike, it is a technique, like if you are doing ballet, a technique, you can do it mechanically, a lot of it comes mechanically in one sense, but if you say, she is a mechanical dancer, it is an insult, practically.
39:42	We have to differentiate between those two meanings of the word. And I would say that habit is a very good word for what comes when you are riding a bicycle, after you have learned.
39:53	Because it is a habit, it is ingrained, it is the substratum, it is at the bottom, and you can build upon that.
40:02	It is a sort of a foundation which you learn, and I would say it is mechanical, in that sense of the word.
40:13	Q: Isn't it the attitude by which one does something that is mechanical or not?
40:22	K: Tunki, he has carefully explained. Habit. All right, let's keep to that word 'habit', shall we? You agree? Bene. We all agree?
40:39	Q: Shaku's word was very good though, too. It makes it very clear to say that it is memory, because all habit comes out of memory.
40:48	K: Yes, I agree. Do we realise – I will go back to Mr. Joe's question – do we realise we live in habits?
41:09	Are you aware that you live a life – I dare not use any other word but habit now – do you realise that?
41:25	Your thinking is a habit. You follow? You may change the habit but it is still habit-forming.
41:41	Q: You mean your reactions are habit?
41:44	K: Your reactions are habit. Traditional, educated, mechanical, routine.
41:58	I have ideals, if you have, and you keep on repeating I have ideals, I have ideals, I have ideals – that is habitual, that is repetitive.
42:10	Like the Catholics or protestants, they say I believe, I have faith, and keep on repeating that.
42:21	So, do we here, as a group, realise that we have a great many, many, many, both physical and psychological habits?
42:37	Is that simple enough? Now, are you aware of your physical habits?
42:50	Aware, know, conscious, see, observe that you have a particular habit, physically: scratching your head, biting nails, doing this, doing that – are you aware of it?
43:12	No.
43:19	To learn is to be aware of those habits. Right?
43:37	To learn, we said, is to be aware of the physical habits that one has.
43:47	And also, to learn psychologically about the psychological habits you have.
44:01	Which is, to compare yourself with somebody, that is a psychological habit. Are you aware of it? Do you compare yourself with somebody, psychologically?
44:22	Do discuss this. Are you? You say, I would like to be like that person.
44:36	That is a psychological habit, isn't it, in which you have been educated from childhood, which is habit, tradition, etc.
44:48	Are you aware of that? And being aware, do you learn by watching it?
45:01	By watching your psychological habit, you are learning about it, aren't you?
45:11	TR: This seems to be the problem: that in the watching of the habit, rather, one can't watch the habit as it is occurring, one can only see, that is something I constantly do, or repetitively do.
45:29	K: No, I will show you in a minute. In my relationship with you I have a picture about you, and you have a picture about me.
45:41	That picture-making about you is a habit, and you have that same habit.
45:50	So both of us have the same habit of picture-making about each other. Now, one becomes aware of that, recognises it, and learning how it is formed, why it is formed, and also whether it can be stopped.
46:16	The learning about that is non-habitual.
46:25	I wonder if I have made this clear.
46:34	I have known that person for many years, X – she may be my wife, my husband, my girl, boy, whatever it is, I have known that person for many years.
46:51	The habit is to make a picture of her. As you do, don't you? You all do this, make a picture of the person. Now, find out, learn why you make a picture of that person.
47:15	Why? Learn about it, don't repeat what you hear, but learn to find out.
47:27	From observing why you make a picture, you learn.
47:34	Why do you make a picture?
47:43	No, Tunki, just listen. Why do you make a picture of a person with whom you have lived for many years – why?
47:54	Which you invariably do, most people do. I am asking you why. Q: (Inaudible) K: Yes, good enough – why?
48:07	JZ: Say I have lived with you for many years, and I am very alert and I know this, that you have certain habits, every time we meet you always say this, you always wear your clothes in the same way.
48:21	So after a while I begin to see 10 or 20 or 50 of your habits.
48:28	And in a sense, that is what I mean when I say that I know you. Now, is that forming a picture of you?
48:36	K: Yes, that is forming a picture of me.
48:43	JZ: Let's say that it is your habit to do certain things.
48:45	K: You are watching my physical habits, and you have met me for a number of weeks, and you have an image of me doing those habits.
49:01	JZ: Is that an image or is that a recognition of what you are?
49:06	K: That is part of it, that recognition is a part of the image.
49:11	JZ: Let's change the word to seeing what you are.
49:14	K: Yes, so use that word: seeing what I am.
49:18	JZ: If I see what you are, a person that has those habits, is that an image or is that a seeing, which is not an image?
49:29	K: If you see those habits and not conclude that it is K.
49:36	JZ: Say I don't conclude that you always must have those habits or I am not concluding that there is something that lives inside your head that is that way, unchangeable and permanent, but nonetheless that because of your conditioning...
49:51	K: No, sir. Just a minute. You see me having a number of habits, and you have a picture of me doing those habits.
50:06	That is a conclusion. The picture is a conclusion. But if you don't conclude there is no picture, you just see.
50:22	JZ: What would it mean in our relationship?
50:24	K: That is what I am coming to. There are physical habits and psychological habits.
50:34	In my relationship with you, relationship, I have made a picture of you and you have made a picture of me – that is a habit.
50:44	Right?
50:48	JZ: Of course, that is a habit.
50:50	K: Wait, that is all. I am sticking to it. Now, I want to learn why these habits are formed.
50:59	JZ: Whenever you meet me, you always speak to me in English.
51:04	K: Because we both know English.
51:07	JZ: But isn't it part of your picture of me, I am asking, that you know that I don't speak any other language?
51:14	K: No, if you spoke French perhaps better than me, we would both exchange a few words in French.
51:22	JZ: If a person you never saw before comes into the room, you may not know what language to speak.
51:29	If it is in England you might try English.
51:31	K: I would listen to him, what he is going to say.
51:36	JZ: Suppose that you have to speak first.
51:41	K: What are you trying to get at?
51:47	JZ: You always speak to me in English, so I am suggesting that you do recognise, you do have some picture of me as an English speaking man.
51:57	K: No. Because both of us know English. I know English because you have understood English for the last two years. If both of us spoke French – but that is not what I am talking about.
52:12	MZ: Is the image, when you have a certain amount of information, we all have information about each other in varying degrees, – it is when you then substitute that memory of that person for the actual person.
52:25	K: Yes. I am coming to that, my lady. Just go slowly. We are talking about learning – right? I want to learn why I make these pictures.
52:46	In my relationship with you, why do I make pictures about you?
52:52	JZ: In certain cases they seem, obviously, helpful.
52:59	K: So, one of the reasons is that it is helpful. Proceed. I want to learn why human beings do this.
53:13	Brian Jenkins: Is it perhaps because I am frightened and I feel I need somebody who will smile at me and make me feel at ease.
53:21	So that is my image, somebody who is friendly towards me.
53:26	K: So you are frightened of what? Of not recognising the person?
53:36	BJ: Yes.
53:39	K: Look, careful, I make a picture of my wife or a girl because I am frightened if I don't recognise her next time she might bang me on the head – is that it?
54:00	BJ: I think so, yes.
54:08	Q: I am also making a picture of this room and the people in front of me. It is something which you do automatically.
54:18	K: Look, Tunki, I am talking about relationship with a human being, not with all this.
54:27	Look, you have a picture about your mother, haven't you?
54:34	Your mother, your uncle, your friend, for God's sake.
54:38	Q: Yes, anything I have met, I have experienced.
54:41	K: You have a picture about somebody. Why do you have that? You understand my question?
54:50	Q: But if you didn't have a picture of anybody you wouldn't get to know them.
54:54	K: Yes, you know them – what other reasons? Go into it.
54:59	Q: So you can remember them when you are not with them.
55:04	K: Yes, that is, to remember them. Go on, further, learn about it, go into it. You said, to recognise them.
55:16	Q: Talk about them.
55:19	K: To talk about them. Go on. Why do you make pictures of another?
55:26	DD: Well, I make pictures of myself, so it would seem inevitable that I would make pictures of others.
55:32	K: Why do you make a picture about yourself? Inquire, learn about it.
55:45	MZ: Doesn't it happen, being confronted with anything, a person or some shapeless object, that we consult our memory in order to deal with it, to find out what it is?
56:03	K: Wait a minute. Do you have a picture about me?
56:10	Q: Yes. K: Why? John Porter: For one thing, we want to know what your reaction might be.
56:19	K: I am asking you, why do you have a picture about this man sitting on a platform?
56:27	Why? To recognise him?
56:32	MZ: Because our minds respond with information that is stored up.
56:37	K: Please, you are not answering my question. Harsh Tankha: Because when we see you do the same thing two or three times, then we want to depend on you to continue to do the same thing for us.
56:53	K: Is that it? You want me to do all the thinking for you?
57:10	Tunki, dear, please. I am asking you a question, Tunki: you have a picture about me, haven't you?
57:16	Q: Yes. K: Why?
57:20	Q: Well, I just have. It is the same as if I met somebody, I have a picture of that person.
57:29	JF: Krishnaji, are we talking about the picture or an image?
57:31	K: Both the same thing, picture, image, an idea, a conclusion.
57:36	SN: But are you talking of a visual picture or a psychological picture? I think that is not quite clear.
57:42	K: I am talking about a psychological picture.
57:46	SN: I think that is not quite clear. K: I think that is clear, isn't it?
57:48	Q: Yes. K: Yes, that is clear.
57:51	K: You have a picture of me. I am sitting here, for God's sake. I am not an illusion.
58:02	Q: Can we distinguish what a psychological picture means? After you are not here, I still have the picture of you.
58:08	K: Yes, that is it. You have a picture of your uncle, haven't you, who lives in Amsterdam?
58:22	Don't take hours over it.
58:24	Q: Yes, I can recall it back.
58:29	K: You can recall, but there is an image, there is a picture, a symbol of your uncle in Amsterdam.
58:40	SN: It was with a conclusion that... K: A conclusion.
58:45	K: All right, a picture, an image, a symbol, a conclusion, an idea.
58:51	JZ: What if someone were to ask you if you had a picture of his uncle? I don't have a picture of his uncle. I am very clear on that. But do you have some picture of his uncle?
59:05	K: No.
59:06	MZ: But you have just remembered that he had an uncle in Amsterdam.
59:17	JZ: I think we have to get it clear. It doesn't seem to me to be a harmful thing.
59:25	K: We never said it is harmful or good or bad, but I am just asking why we make pictures, what is the cause of it, why we maintain it, and is there a necessity for it, and what would happen if there was no picture?
59:40	And I want to learn about all this. You keep going round and round. Not you, sir, but others – we all do.
59:48	MZ: Are we differentiating between memory or a conclusion and a psychological image of a person?
59:58	K: I made it very clear, I am talking about psychological memory, psychological picture, psychological conclusion, a symbol, an idea, my uncle is that, my wife is that.
1:00:17	JZ: I would like to make it clear that you had – it is a very small part, but a mechanistic memory that Tunki has an uncle in Amsterdam, but there is no psychological memory, which would be a psychological image of his uncle.
1:00:34	K: I am talking of psychological memory. I think now it is all clear. Is it? It is a psychological picture I have about my wife, uncle, brother, sister, father, grandmother, etc. – picture.
1:00:52	I say to myself, why do I make a picture?
1:00:57	Q: If I have a picture of things or people then I know how to deal with them.
1:01:03	K: That is it. That is, I have a picture of my uncle because I know how to deal with him.
1:01:11	Is that it? I have a picture of my wife and I know how to deal with her.
1:01:30	Q: Is it something fixed or does the psychological picture move?
1:01:34	K: It is moving, it is living, changing, I add, take away, it isn't a permanent picture of Picasso which I hung up on the wall.
1:01:46	Q: But anything that you have experienced will become a psychological picture.
1:01:54	K: Look, Tunki, you have a picture of the person with whom you dealt with in Indonesia, haven't you?
1:02:06	Why do you have that picture? Why do you have that picture of that person with whom you have been dealing with in Indonesia – why?
1:02:23	Because he has hurt you? Because he cheated you? Because he has been angry with you or he has flattered you? Or he has asked money from you? What is the reason of this picture you have?
1:02:44	Q: Isn't that the way the brain works?
1:02:52	K: Yes, I am asking: why does it work that way? I am asking you.
1:02:57	Q: This is a question we don't know. Nobody knows it.
1:03:03	SS: Isn't it fed in – to pick up Don's earlier point – that the image I have of another is in contrast to the image I have of myself, which is fed in to me. K: All right, make it much simpler.
1:03:17	K: Why do you have a picture about yourself, a conclusion, an idea, a symbol, an image, why do you have it about yourself?
1:03:35	Go into it, Philip, go into it much deeper. One of the reasons we know: I recognise you, it is convenient, I can't each time be introduced to you as Mr Philip, it would be rather nutty.
1:03:53	So, I say, why do I, apart from that, have pictures about myself?
1:04:00	You have a picture about yourself, haven't you? Right? Oh, come on. Why?
1:04:10	BJ: Is it because I am trying to protect something?
1:04:12	K: I am asking. Is that the reason you have, to protect yourself, against whom? Other images?
1:04:21	SS: It is rather a tribal thing, in a sense. My tribe is, for instance, a protestant tribe, an English tribe, a northern English tribe, a such and such, and each of us has a tribe.
1:04:32	K: Is that the reason, that it gives you strength when you recognise yourself belonging to something?
1:04:41	SS: That is the vitality of it. K: Yes, the vitality of it.
1:04:47	K: That is, I have a picture about myself as a Hindu. God forbid, I haven't got it. But if I have it, I do it because it is part of the tribal tradition, because I have identified with the tribe or with a group or with a nation, it gives a certain strength, a certain vitality.
1:05:10	Right? Is that the reason you are doing it?
1:05:17	Q: That is part of it. It doesn't seem like that is the whole reason.
1:05:21	K: So that is part of it. Then what is the other part? Go on, investigate, explore – that is learning.
1:05:32	TR: We also see some classification process. Like I say I am fat or I am thin, and associate fatness with...
1:05:39	K: Wait, that is physical. You are tall, you are brown, I am fairly white, I am brown, it is a physical description.
1:05:51	But we are not talking about that, we are talking about the psychological picture I have about myself.
1:06:00	TR: But I think that is included.
1:06:02	K: Does it flow from the physical description to the psychological? T R: Yes.
1:06:10	K: I am learning – you follow? You have added something to my learning. That is, I have brought over my physical appearance, which is shown in a mirror, or in the water, and I say I am that picture which I see in a mirror or in the water.
1:06:34	That is one thing. Then what else is there?
1:06:39	TR: And then seeing it one says, I want to change it.
1:06:43	K: Yes, that is it. I want to change it because I have an image of you who are much more intelligent, much more beautiful, etc.
1:06:53	So, I have a picture of myself which I have seen physically in the mirror or in the water, and I carried that image with me, my face, and I compare that picture which I have about myself with you who are taller, shorter, brighter, nobler, etc.
1:07:18	And I say, I want to be like that or I don't want to be like that.
1:07:26	So, there is a comparative process going on. Now, that is one of the basic reasons of getting hurt. That is my point. Because I am trying to be like you, and if I am not, I get hurt, either in examinations, you know, the whole thing.
1:07:52	So, why do I have a picture about myself? All right, I look at myself in the mirror or in the water, and I say, yes, that is enough.
1:08:04	Why do I make a picture of myself? You understand? It is such a burden. It is simple, I see myself in the mirror, and finished.
1:08:20	But psychologically, the somatic process, that is, the physical process seeps into the psychological process.
1:08:30	So can that stop? If that stops, is there a psychological process going on? You follow what I am asking? Do you follow? Don't nod your head unless you understand this. That is, you see yourself in the mirror and you say, yes, that is me, Kate, or whatever name it is.
1:09:07	And also you see your sister or your brother who is much brighter than you, much taller, much more beautiful, much more attractive.
1:09:18	And you compete with him, say, I wish I could be like him.
1:09:25	And that is one of the reasons why you get hurt. Do you see that? So, that is one factor. And the other is, you see yourself in the mirror and yes, that is your face – why do you want to compare?
1:09:52	DP: You may not like what you see.
1:09:57	K: Why? You may not like what you see only because what you... It is so obvious.
1:10:13	The moment you say, I don't like what I see, you have already compared yourself with somebody, and therefore you don't like what you see.
1:10:23	And therefore you have the ground which is going to be hurt.
1:10:31	DP: Then why do you say, one must be content with what one sees.
1:10:34	K: No, not content – it is so. Why do you want to be content or discontent?
1:10:43	JZ: Now we go into this very confused question of beauty.
1:10:50	We look at some person and we say, oh, that is beauty.
1:10:54	K: I understand. I am not questioning beauty. Beauty, one must discuss it.
1:10:59	JZ: We haven't got time today.
1:11:02	K: I would like to discuss beauty tremendously, but not today. I want to stick to this, if you don't mind. So, I am asking you, you have a picture about yourself. You have seen your face in the water or in the mirror, a reflection of yourself, and from that reflection flows the psychological process of saying, I am not as tall or as beautiful as that.
1:11:34	When you compare yourself with that, with another, you have the area which is going to be hurt.
1:11:45	Do you see that? I have got to explain to you. Unless you understand this basically you are going to be hurt. I compare myself with you. You are blond, nice, tall, people like blonds, and you look nice, you look clear, clean.
1:12:11	And I am brown, dirty, ugly and I say, I would like to be like you.
1:12:18	Now, I have already opened the door to getting hurt. Do you see that? So, one of the reasons of getting hurt is comparing.
1:12:37	Can you learn about comparing and what it does, and therefore stop comparing?
1:12:46	You get the point? Do you understand this? Never to compare.
1:13:06	So, the other factor is, I must stop at ten to one. Right?
1:13:14	Another ten minutes, we will stop, or five minutes. I am asking you: why do you make a picture of yourself?
1:13:26	You say, I make a picture of myself, it is one of the habits of belonging to a tribe, to a nation.
1:13:34	The nation is a glorified tribe. So I belong to that. That gives me strength. Right? You understand that? When you say, I am an American, America is very strong as a nation, powerful, affluent, rich, and that gives you a sense of importance.
1:14:00	If you call yourself a poor little village man, living in India, you are a nobody. You follow what I am saying?
1:14:08	So making an image about yourself gives you a certain vitality and strength.
1:14:18	Have you noticed this? Carol Smith: Isn't there the opposite? You can have an image of yourself that you are incompetent, that you are stupid. You can have an image that doesn't give you vitality and strength but sort of saps your energies.
1:14:37	K: I don't quite follow you.
1:14:38	CS: You can have an image that you are not a competent person, that you are stupid, that you can't learn things, that people don't like you.
1:14:47	K: People don't like you, you are ugly, you are this, you are that, that is the reverse of the other.
1:14:54	CS: But you were saying that an image gives you vitality, and I am saying sometimes it may give you inertia.
1:15:01	K: Yes, because I have compared myself with you, I call myself dull, I call myself stupid, but if I don't compare there is some other act, motion, activity goes on.
1:15:22	I wish you could understand this.
1:15:36	I don't know how to explain this more. Do you understand this, sir? Please explain it a little bit. Not verbally, but actually feeling it, the reality, the truth of it, so that you never compare yourself with anybody.
1:16:10	DD: It seems that I do it most when I am not paying attention.
1:16:16	K: Have you got a picture of yourself, and do you compare yourself with somebody?
1:16:23	Why? When you know the danger of it, when you know that when you compare yourself with another you are going to get terribly hurt for the rest of your life.
1:16:39	And that is one of the reasons of great fear.
1:16:46	And to be free of fear don't compare, see the fact of it.
1:17:03	JZ: It seems the image gets to be very dangerous when we no longer see it as an image anymore, and we say, I am that. K: Yes. That is just it.
1:17:14	JZ: Then we don't look at it again. So I think the learning part, what we can do here as learning, is to learn to look...
1:17:27	K: Look at yourself.
1:17:29	JZ: Look at what we think we are.
1:17:30	K: No, what is actual, not what you would like.
1:17:38	JZ: Or not even what we think is a fact.
1:17:41	K: Yes, to see yourself exactly as it is.
1:17:49	I compare myself with you who are very clever, who can express beautifully, talk excellently.
1:17:57	I compare myself with you and say, by Jove, I am dull. You understand? Now, am I dull if I don't compare?
1:18:19	Then what am I?
1:18:28	Do look at it. You compare yourself with somebody, and so make yourself feel dull.
1:18:37	If you don't compare, what takes place?
1:18:42	Q: 'What is' is left.
1:18:46	K: What is left? Tura: What you actually are.
1:18:53	K: What are you?
1:18:57	Q: Well, you don't know. K: Push it, push it, find out!
1:19:01	K: Learn about it.
1:19:03	MZ: Isn't it that the danger comes when we give psychological significance to difference?
1:19:10	I can say I am older than most people in this room, that is a comparison. I can say, my God, how awful, or it can be just fact. Isn't it the psychological use that we make of this?
1:19:23	K: Look, Maria, Mrs Z, whatever, please stick to one thing.
1:19:31	You are going far too much ahead.
1:19:38	The little things I want them to understand first. Which is, don't compare, for God's sake, ever, because you open the door to great misery.
1:20:03	Q: You have to be very aware of what you are doing, because you may neglect yourself which you don't want to do anymore.
1:20:11	K: I am asking you: I compare myself with you. You are bright, beautiful, everything, beauty, whatever it is, and I am not. So I say, by Jove, how dull I am, or somebody says, your brother is so much cleverer than you are.
1:20:36	So, I have a picture about myself as being dull, because I have compared myself.
1:20:44	But what happens if I don't compare myself with you? What am I, what takes place in me?
1:20:56	Q: The picture is gone.
1:20:59	K: Is that so with you? Or you just imagine the picture is gone?
1:21:15	Are you getting tired?
1:21:22	If I don't compare myself with you, then I am not dull.
1:21:33	I am – you follow? And I want to find out then why I have called myself dull, because I recognise I have compared, but if I don't compare, what takes place in my mind?
1:21:50	That is what I want to learn. Q: It is free.
1:21:59	K: It is free, you say. Free from what?
1:22:06	Or just free? Free from a burden which I have carried all my life. Listen to it carefully. That is, by comparing myself with you I have called myself dull, and that has become a burden.
1:22:28	I am dull. Oh, for God's sake, I must struggle to be more clever, etc. But when I realise if I don't compare, I am free of a burden.
1:22:45	So are there other burdens which I am carrying, which may be utterly useless?
1:22:53	So I am inquiring, I am learning.
1:22:54	JZ: You could easily make a burden by saying, I am free.
1:22:58	K: Of course. That is another form of stupidity.
1:23:11	So is this clear this morning, something? Is something clear this morning? What do you say? Will you stop comparing? Or has it become such a deep-rooted habit that you can't break away from it?
1:23:40	You can only break away from it when you see that it is going to hurt you for the rest of your life, and therefore frightened.
1:23:53	If you actually see that, you will never compare yourself with somebody else.
1:24:04	Have you learned that this morning?
1:24:11	Do tell me yes or no. You haven't, have you? No. That is just it. So you go on comparing, do you?
1:24:35	And this is our education, we turn out students, human beings, who are going to be hurt for the rest of their life.
1:25:03	I think we had better stop. We will continue this, may we?