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BR76DSS2.4 - If you radically, psychologically change, you affect the consciousness of the world
Brockwood Park, UK - 8 October 1976
Discussion with Staff and Students 2.4



0:22 Krishnamurti: What will we talk about this morning? Questioner: Can we talk about insight?
0:33 Q: Insight.
0:38 K: Insight.
0:40 Q: And understanding.
0:44 K: Insight and understanding.
0:54 Philip Brew: I wonder if we could continue where we began to touch upon the relationship between love and passion and suffering.
1:04 Love, passion and suffering.
1:08 K: All rather complex questions, those are.
1:18 Donald Dennis: Could we also discuss further the image making process and self-image?
1:29 K: Image making process and thought.
1:39 The other day at lunch one of you said to me, how do you know?
1:51 Because I said, all following is very destructive.
2:00 And in response to that I was told, how do you know?
2:11 May we go into that a little bit and then also include all the other questions?
2:26 I wonder if one realises that each human being, in us, the whole history of mankind is stored up.
2:46 I wonder if you realise that. That in each one of us, the history of mankind, the past, with all the suffering, pain, sorrow, affection, love and fear, all the struggles are stored up in each one of us.
3:10 And you might say, how do you know that? First, by observing what the world is like, what the world around us is like, the wars, the battles, the killing, the hatreds, the extraordinary violence, the division of nationalities with their economic problems, with their social problems separately, and also you see all the religions throughout the world have divided themselves up into Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam.
4:04 So, this constant breaking up, not only geographically but racially, nationally, in various religious divisions.
4:29 Who has created all that? You understand my question? Who has created this division, these wars, this violence, hatred, fears, anxiety, all the rest of mankind, who has brought this about?
5:01 What do you say to that? Who do you think has brought this about?
5:19 Come on.
5:23 Q: The people. Yes, I can see there is some part of history behind it, because the parents will tell the children...
5:33 K: Who has created this division? These wars, the national divisions, the religious divisions, who do you think has done it?
5:48 Come on.
5:49 Q: People.

K: People.
5:52 K: Who are they?
5:54 Q: Us.

K: Us. Right? We. Our great grandfathers, great, great, great, great grandfathers, past generations and the present generation, the future generation – I hope are not – have created this world, haven't they?
6:14 That is, we have created this. So all that is stored in us, that is our conditioning. You asked other day: how can one be free of this conditioning?
6:32 This conditioning is the result of man, man's thoughts, man's feelings, man's anxieties, man's or woman's hopes, fears, all that which we have, has created this world, hasn't it?
6:57 Q: Do you mean specifically inheritance or do you mean to say the education?
7:04 K: Our education, everything we human beings have created in this world, technologically, socially, morally, religiously, all the gods, all the technology, everything: man, the human being has done this, created this.
7:24 Q: In other words, what you mean is it is stored in us by education, not by an inheritance factor.
7:36 K: I don't understand what you are saying.
7:38 Q: Well, you said all this information is stored in us.
7:51 K: Look, Tunki, who has created these cathedrals?
7:57 Q: People.

K: Man, human being. And who has created all the gods inside the cathedrals?
8:04 Q: Also man.

K: Man. And who has created all the rituals in the cathedrals? Man. And who has divided the world into Hindus, Buddhists, etc.?
8:19 Man, human beings. So, we human beings have all the history of man or woman inside us.
8:29 Dorothy Simmons: But each generation of children thinks it is different from the last, really different.
8:36 K: Somewhat different. They are much brighter. I mean, at your age you ask questions which I wouldn't have dared to ask. I wouldn't even know how to ask when I was your age. I would be too frightened. I didn't know. But you are much brighter, but that doesn't mean you are not going to make the same mess as the rest of the world.
8:59 Right?

Q: Yes.
9:02 Q: What I was asking is that: that comes from the education, this disorder doesn't come through the inheritance factor.
9:09 K: Comes from education, tradition, the do's and the don'ts of the parents.
9:20 Man has created this thing through education, through social environment, through economic environment and so on.
9:31 So if you observe that world and ask this question: who has created it? Naturally you will say man has created it. That is we, human beings. Then human beings also have created the leaders, the gurus, the priests.
9:53 Right?
10:00 So we have set up authority. We are responsible for creating authorities, because we live a disorderly life.
10:13 Are you following all this? Does it interest you, all this? So we lead a disorderly life and so somebody comes along and say, I will tell you how to live an orderly life, and we follow him.
10:29 Follow him in the sense, accept what he says, obey, conform to all that he is saying.
10:37 Which we have done for generations. And a new guru, or the person coming from India or Japan says, I will tell you what to do. You are in such a mess.
10:53 And we say, all right, tell us. And we listen, we like it, because it is something different from what we have heard before that might please us, and so on.
11:03 And we say, all, right, we will follow you, we will obey you, we will conform to what you say. Which we have done for thousands of years when the priests have said that, the Catholics and the protestants and the Hindu priests have said, we will tell you what to do.
11:20 I wonder if you understand all this. So, by observing the outer, I relate it to my inner life and I see that outer and inner are the same.
11:35 And out of that observation and listening to myself I say, I know, this is so.
11:44 Right? Are you doubtful about all this?
12:01 So, I think it is important, if I may point out, how to read not only what the world is like but also how to read our relationship to the world, and find out if we are different from the world, the world being all the things that man has done, that is, his cruelty, his arrogance, his pride, his desire for success, security, all that he has created out there in the world, is that different from what we want?
12:43 You follow? So, by observing my relationship to the world I discover I am the world, I am arrogant, I hate, I am violent, I am a Hindu, I am a Christian, I am this, I am that.
13:03 So by observing the outer and trying to find out my relationship to the outer, I discover I am the world.
13:15 Basically. Of course, you have brown hair or blond hair, or short or tall, or pink or black or brown, that is not what I mean, that is physiological difference.
13:30 We are talking of the inner. The man who is in sorrow is exactly the same as in India, and so on.
13:39 So I know. I know in the sense, I have watched this thing happening around me for over 60 years and I say, yes, I am the world.
13:51 And if I change, I transform the consciousness of the people. I wonder if you understand that? You understand? No. If I change radically, basically, fundamentally, I affect the consciousness of the world, which is me.
14:16 Right? So it becomes very important for a human being to psychologically undergo a deep revolution.
14:30 Full stop.
14:32 Q: That is only one in so many millions. It is only one person in so many millions.
14:42 K: You are only one person. You are saying you won't affect the rest of the world. Is that it?
14:51 Q: Yes.
14:53 K: Is that so, Tunki?
15:02 Think it out. Is that so?
15:09 You asked the question: if one human being fundamentally undergoes psychological revolution, his consciousness is totally different, and that consciousness may and should and will affect the rest of the consciousness of mankind.
15:36 I said it. And you say, what do you mean by that? Of course, how can one person? That is your question, isn't it? Oh, come on, Tunki.
15:51 Q: If we take you as an example, that even though you are only one person but you have a great deal of influence in the world.
16:00 It has just come to my mind that if I take you as an example of one person in the world, then I do admit that you have a great deal of influence.
16:12 Even though it is only one person.
16:18 K: You know Assad in Syria, the president? You have heard about him, you have read in the paper? He is affecting the world, isn't he? Caesar affected the world. The priests in the name of Jesus have affected the world. Hitler has affected the world. Stalin has affected, one person has affected the consciousness of man, Lenin, and so on and so on.
17:00 Are you doubting this? Mary Zimbalist: Could you go into it a little bit more how that is transmitted, because all the examples except the priests were heads of governments or revolutionaries, sociological heads of groups, but a person who isn't in that position...
17:21 K: I beg your pardon?
17:22 MZ: A person who is not in that position of outward power, how does an ordinary person affect, if they are transformed, how do they affect others?
17:33 K: Surely, Socrates, he affected the thinking of the Athenians.
17:45 MZ: In other words, it is through talking, outward action.
17:50 K: Through talking, outward activity, in various different ways they have affected mankind.
17:59 MZ: So the very fact of having been transformed, or transformed oneself is...
18:06 K: You affect it much more radically. I wonder if you see this. Do you see this or no?
18:21 Q: But suppose that the person who is transformed doesn't talk at all.
18:28 Would he have any affect?
18:30 K: Tunki, just listen. Find out. Find out, not from me, watch it, observe what is happening in the world.
18:44 Mrs Gandhi in India, the prime minister, is affecting the world.
18:54 Religiously, the Buddha has affected the world.
19:05 The Buddhist monks spread all over Asia.
19:13 So, in the name of Jesus or Christ, the priests have affected the religious thinking of the West.
19:26 So, if you fundamentally transform yourself psychologically, that is, your change in consciousness, you affect the world much more, don't you?
19:45 Don't you see this? No? He is uncertain about it.
19:51 Q: It seems that the people you have been mentioning have some outward power in the first place.
19:56 K: No, not only outward power, by what they said.
20:01 Q: But if you didn't say anything.
20:03 K: By their action. If you didn't say anything and retired from the world and lived in a monastery, of course you wouldn't affect the world, and never spoke, never had any relationship with the world.
20:20 You follow? But you may affect – I won't enter into it, it becomes something completely different.
20:31 Q: But for how long? How long can this last, the person who is transformed? This is just a passing generation. How long does the essence of the thing last?
20:46 K: Look, aren't you affected by what is being said?
20:51 Q: Yes, but when you say the world, it does not just mean now.
20:57 K: Please, I said consciousness of the world, not politically, not immediately, not religious, but consciousness, the way they think, the way they feel.
21:17 What is the difficulty in this? Do you see the truth of this?
21:31 That you are the world and the world is you and if you radically, psychologically change, you affect the consciousness of the world.
21:46 That is so clear. Stephen Smith: Krishnaji, it may seem somewhat intangible to certain people how this comes about because it is rather a fine point, in a sense.
22:07 K: It is.
22:10 SS: There is not an evident equation between the psychological and the external.
22:16 K: Look, sir, a person like the Buddha has affected the thinking or religious life of people, haven't they, for generations.
22:33 They may have twisted it, they may have corrupted it, what he said, but it has affected the people.
22:42 So I say to myself, if I change, in that sense, I do affect the people, the consciousness of the world.
22:56 It may not be immediately observable.
23:13 Joe Zorskie: The people you mentioned, Caesar and Sadat and Hitler and all the rest, they are in great positions of influence and power but none of them are just given that, they have to work for that, they have to have tremendous energy to do that.
23:33 K: That is it.
23:34 JZ: Even if they are completely bent, like Hitler, the man was capable of marshalling up a tremendous amount of personal energy to do it day after day.
23:46 K: He was, he was.
23:47 JZ: Now, one question: where does that energy come from?
23:51 K: Wait. All neurotics have tremendous energy.
23:57 JZ: Well, some do, yes.

K: I mean, highly bent ones.
24:04 JZ: Yes, sometimes. What you are saying I think is that that energy can come from a delusion.
24:11 K: From a delusion.
24:13 JZ: And those people who have that sometimes feel that they are right. It is called righteousness.
24:19 K: Yes, and work for it. J

Z: And they work for it.
24:23 JZ: And everything else in comparison is less important to them.
24:27 K: Quite. But, in the same way, if you are not neurotic, if you are not bent, if you are whole, you have got much more energy than the other fellow has, than the neurotic.
24:46 JZ: The question that seems to come my mind is that, here we are, if we feel some energy to do this then what is it that is going to make us absolutely clear that it is not neurotic energy?
25:05 K: It is not the energy of illusion but the energy of truth. Could we put it this way: the energy of illusion and the energy of truth.
25:15 JZ: Right. Because the people who are in illusion think that they are connected to truth.
25:21 K: I know. So that is why we have to go very carefully into the matter of knowing oneself, etc., self-knowledge and all that.
25:39 So, we are learning something, there is the energy of illusion and the energy of truth.
25:49 Now how do we know that we have not got the energy of illusion?
25:59 How do you find out? By questioning the very thing which you think is real, questioning the very thing from which you derive energy.
26:18 What creates illusion? Are you interested in all this? What creates illusion? What brings about a mind which is caught in some kind of fancy, romantic, mystic, romantic illusion, fancy, why is such a mind caught in it? What is the cause of it?
26:49 Come on, don't go to sleep, it is also your problem.
27:00 What do you think? Hitler – we will take that example for the moment – he had great energy.
27:16 He derived that energy by saying to himself, 'I represent the German,' and so on, and that was an illusion.
27:28 How do I know that I am not caught in an illusion? Right? Is that what you are asking me?
27:37 JZ: No, not particularly you.
27:38 K: No. Good enough. Why is a man trapped in an illusion? That is, illusion: nationalism is an illusion, belief is an illusion.
28:03 I believe in God, I believe in Jesus, I believe in something, that is an illusion.
28:14 Or not?
28:25 Now, can a man who is caught in an illusion realise he is caught in it?
28:33 You understand my question? Suppose I am caught in an illusion, how will I know that I am?
28:47 I believe tremendously in – what?
28:57 JZ: Mental telepathy.
28:59 K: No. No, there is a great deal of truth in that, but let's get beyond that.
29:07 JZ: But is there? You have to question it. Some of these things are very subtle, it is not clear whether something is fact or whether it is illusion.
29:20 That is when it gets down to fact and illusion, it is very difficult.
29:26 K: All right. Fact and illusion. What is a fact?
29:39 JZ: Well, if you look it up in the dictionary, as I recall from your discussions, it is something like fact is something that is made.
29:50 K: Fact that is made, that is observable by many, though they may give it different names, by actually 'what is'.
30:05 JZ: It would seem that way, yes.

K: Yes.
30:07 K: So, this is 'what is'. I won't call that a giraffe because we have all agreed that is a microphone.
30:18 But if we all agree that is a giraffe, I will say it is a giraffe.
30:30 And 'what is', that is not an illusion.
30:39 When there is observation of actually what is, it doesn't create illusion.
30:54 JZ: So maybe the difficulty is in observance?
30:58 K: No, not only in observing, but is it possible to observe without distortion?
31:11 Where there is distortion, there is illusion.
31:17 JZ: Well, it seems to be a fact, to put it that way, psychologists seem to have convinced themselves that people, because of their frame of mind, you want your football team to win, for instance, you feel very identified with that football team, and you might be watching the game and you think that person touched the football before it went out.
31:45 It may not have happened, but that is the way you actually see it. Your mind, it apparently has been shown in these tests, that a person can see what he wants to see, that his whole desire JZ: can even warp what you see.

K: So, that is the point.
32:04 K: Desire creates illusion. Right?
32:12 Q: There can only be clear observation if there is no desire at all.
32:18 K: No, do we first agree that desire creates illusion? I desire to be safe. I desire for security psychologically, inwardly, I desire to be secure, and I attach myself to an idea, because the idea I believe in, I like it, it gives me security.
32:49 So, my desire for security makes me cling to a belief which is romantic but not actual, therefore it is illusory.
33:04 Right? So, have I desire to be something, to find security psychologically in you?
33:22 If I have a desire to have security psychologically in you then I am creating an illusion right away.
33:38 JZ: Looking at desire, is that implication that 'what is', the fact, is often a subject of confusion.
33:50 K: What is – I want to escape from it.
33:53 JZ: We want to find out what is.
33:55 K: First I see what is. I see that I am very lonely. That is a fact. And I want to escape from it, I am frightened of this loneliness, so I run away from it.
34:11 The running away from it is the factor of illusion. I don't say, well, I will look at what is. I want security because I am lonely. The fact is I am lonely. And to escape from the loneliness into some form of security, safety, is illusion.
34:42 That is clear.
34:43 Q: Sir, can we discuss telepathy, how would you know what it is?
34:50 K: Telepathy? Reading one's thoughts? Is that what you are talking about? I don't know what you said, sorry.
35:02 MZ: She said, how does one know what telepathy is.
35:06 K: Wait a minute, are we discussing 'what is' or telepathy?
35:10 DS: There are two discussions.
35:14 K: Are you carrying on your own discussion or are you joining with us?
35:18 MZ: Joe mentioned telepathy.
35:22 K: Yes.
35:30 Q: Can we stick with this instead?
35:32 K: Do you want to discuss telepathy?
35:37 Q: No.
35:39 Q: About the fact and the illusion, how can you distinguish the two?
35:52 John Porter: I think she means how can one mind contact another.
35:55 Q: No.
35:57 MZ: How do you distinguish between fact and illusion?
36:05 JZ: Well, I didn't want to throw in a red herring.
36:08 K: No, I think we had better leave that subject alone for a while.
36:10 JZ: That is impossible for us to go into. But what I was suggesting was that, for example, was continuing with how this started, that over the centuries, over the millennia, man has developed in different parts of the world, different ways of thinking and approaching the so-called stream of consciousness.
36:34 And because of where we happen to be born and with the people we happen to live with, we pick that up very subtly, in our language, in the books we read, the way people treat us, the way we do everything, that the cultures, the traditions of the country give us a certain feeling for 'what is', our belief, in other words.
36:58 We have a belief and we cannot, – unless we are very alert and sensitive, which is what I hoped we could discuss – how do we come to see, being in all that, starting with that confusion that has been handed down to us, how can we sort out what is a fact in all of that and what is just merely the mind of man churning out junk?
37:25 K: You come along and tell me that. You come along and I am confused. I don't know the fact, what is fact and what is illusion, I don't know. You come along and begin to talk to me, if I am willing to listen to you.
37:43 I am willing to listen to you, so you point out all the dangers and the illusions and the destructive nature of belief.
37:55 I am willing to listen, I am willing to find out. Right? I have already learned how to listen to what you are saying, so I begin to come out of my illusion by listening to you, by talking to you, by having a discussion, having a dialogue, hearing you talk, and so on, so on, I see in what you are saying the truth of myself: that I am confused, that I refuse to see the fact from illusion because the illusion is much more pleasant than the fact, and so on.
38:40 This is how all the time we are interchanging, so there is a change going on.
38:53 Tony Rose: Are you saying, in fact there is no hesitancy, there is no confusion, there is just the fact without anything encroaching upon that?
39:07 K: Sir, can I see something, can I see myself as I actually am, without any distortion?
39:19 When I am angry or when I tell a lie, or when I am afraid, to see actually as it is, that I am really frightened.
39:36 That is a fact. But the distortion takes place when I move away from the fact.
39:47 Is this clear? Are you moving away from the fact that you are frightened?
39:59 Which is a fact, and trying to escape from it breeds confusion, breeds illusion.
40:13 That is all. So a man who says, I don't want to live in illusion, by listening to what you have said, I won't escape, I look at the fact.
40:31 And you point out: the escape wastes your energy, which you need to look at the fact, and so on and so on.
40:49 TR: So you are saying the fact is I am an illusion, that is the fact. Maybe if one applies it to a Nazi or a Christian or somebody else...
41:01 K: When you say, I am an illusion.
41:03 TR: Yes, but one doesn't want to continue that illusion.
41:06 K: No, but how do you know that it is an illusion? Have you discovered for yourself that when you say, I am, is an illusion?
41:18 Have you discovered that, or you merely repeat it after somebody has said it?
41:28 Jane Hoare: It seems to me that I only see certain levels when I am alone, and I see a great deal more when I am in relationship with other people, of the coloured glasses I am looking through.
41:40 K: So, what?
41:42 JH: So that I really need other people.
41:46 K: All right, have other people – here we are. Ah, but you want a certain type of people.
41:55 JH: No.
42:01 K: Here we are. We are related to you and you are related to us. Why do you say, I need people?
42:10 JH: How am I to know alone, really my own conditioning?
42:14 K: No, you said, I need people.
42:19 JH: I see they show me my conditioning, deeply.
42:27 K: I don't quite understand this.
42:29 Q: Isn't it through relationship you discover conditioning more than when alone?
42:35 K: Tunki, are you saying: through relationship I see myself much more? Is that what you are saying? That is all. We all agree.
42:55 So where are we?
43:00 Q: She said that I am alone and I don't like to be alone, so I create an illusion in order not to be alone.
43:10 K: No, Tunki, she didn't say that.
43:20 So, now you have understood when you said to me, how do you know?
43:29 I have explained. And also to say, I know, is also wrong.
43:43 It stops you when you say, 'I know.'
43:50 Do you understand? Doesn't it stop you when you say, I know all about history?
44:03 When you say, I know history, that is the end of it.
44:10 But if you are learning about history, it is endless.
44:21 So it is dangerous to say, 'I know.' You see that?

Q: Because I will tend to believe it.
44:29 K: Yes. I know I am beautiful or I am ugly – you block yourself.
44:42 Mary Cadogan: It seems almost impossible to say honestly, I am an illusion, and I think this goes back to a little while ago, I think we made a jump when you were talking about the difference between neurotic energy and energy.
44:58 Because it seems that in our ordinary lives we are rather like the curate's egg, we seem to be good in parts, in the sense that sometimes there seems a wellspring of energy which is not, or does not seem to be, neurotic.
45:16 It is very difficult to distinguish between fact and, in a sense, imagination or illusion, because for instance, you can look at a chair and say, this is fact, but if you want to start a school like Brockwood, at one stage there is no fact of a school, something has to come into being.
45:38 K: I question it.
45:41 MC: Well, something has come into being to make that school, inside you.
45:51 K: It is a fact that you need a school of this kind.
46:00 Right? Though it has not taken place, though it has not materialised, it is a fact.
46:12 JH: Is need a fact? Because I can feel I need a crate of peaches. When we talk about the microphone it seems that we all agree and that is a fact but if we talk about need being a fact...
46:31 MC: I don't think it is necessary...
46:34 K: We are talking of two different things, sorry.
46:39 MC: The energy, it seems to be there.
46:41 K: Look, Mrs Cadogan, somebody said, after observing what is going on in the educational area, field, somebody says, I see what is happening.
46:58 That is wrong, it is not complete, there must be another kind of education.
47:07 That is a fact. It has not taken place yet. You have not bought the building yet, etc., but that is a fact – the observation, seeing what is actually going on in the world of education, and seeing that it is not complete, and that is a fact.
47:32 MC: That is a fact, I agree, but then...
47:35 K: Then you work to create the other.
47:39 MC: That energy arises from the fact, or from seeing the fact

K: Yes, that is right.
47:43 MC: A fact of the need.
47:45 K: Are you interested in all this? No. Or you have gone to sleep?
47:49 MC: This is an example of non-neurotic energy, a specific example that one can recognise.
47:55 K: Yes. What is the question you asked, the first question, before I began talking about following and how do you know?
48:14 Q: Insight.

K: Insight.
48:23 K: Understanding, insight.
48:30 Go on. What are the other questions you asked?
48:33 Q: Thought and the image.

K: Thought and image.
48:38 K: Now wait, let's take that.
48:45 Why do you make an image of another?
48:54 Why? You have images of others, haven't you? Why?
49:04 Q: For convenience.

K: Convenient, habit.
49:08 K: Go on, inquire into it, learn about it.
49:14 Q: Because of the past.
49:21 K: Past, all right, go on, inquire. Don't just throw out words, but find out, explore, go into it.
49:32 My question was: why do we human beings create images about others?
49:42 He is a Russian, he is a German, he is an Englishman, he is a black man, he is this, he is that – why?
49:52 Q: That is the mechanism of our brains.
49:58 K: Yes, so you are saying, is that what you have actually found out, or saying just to get on with the conversation?
50:09 Tunki, listen to what I am asking. Are you just saying this, that it is habit, it is convenience, or have you discovered it for yourself?
50:31 Q: Well, when I look at it, it comes out of my mind.
50:34 K: Tunki, I am asking you something, please tell me. When you say it is habit, did you discover it or repeat what somebody else has said about it?
50:48 Q: (Inaudible) K: I asked, please, why do you have images?
51:08 Tell me, please.
51:20 Q: You watch a person's idiosyncrasies and you get to know that person, you can deal with them that way.
51:27 K: That is, when you say image, it is a convenience, right?
51:37 Then proceed, inquire more into it. It is a convenience. If you say, I don't know you, every day, it becomes rather silly after living together. So go on, inquire into it much more.
51:57 SS: Is it something like a description?
52:03 K: Yes, a description. Oh, I know you, I have described you, it has become a picture in my mind because it is habit, it is convenient, it is a recording in my brain.
52:28 Right? So go on, find out.
52:34 Q: It gives me a strong impulse. Anything which gives me a strong experience, a strong expression, that would be recorded.
52:47 K: I have recorded. I met Tunki five years ago. I have recorded it, it is convenient, it is habit. Go on, inquire into it, don't stop there.
53:07 You have been angry with me, and that is recorded.
53:14 So when I meet you, I am rather hesitant, that you have been angry with me and might be angry again.
53:22 So, go on, inquire.
53:29 Q: Once you find security you want to...
53:33 K: So it offers you security.
53:35 Q: Yes.
53:39 K: You can say at the end of it, habit, security, recognition and so on, at the end of it, say, 'I know you.'
53:54 Why? Why do must I say, I know you?
54:04 Yes, I know you superficially because we met here last year. But when I say, I know you, what does that imply?
54:16 Q: That I know myself a bit, and that if I don't know you then I may not know what I am.
54:25 Q: Well, if you say you know me then you are blocking yourself. How can you really know me?
54:30 K: Look, when you go back home, you recognise your mother, don't you?
54:40 I hope you do, don't you? Or your father? Right? You have an image about them, haven't you? Yes? Come on, answer this. Why? I am asking why. Not that you shouldn't have images, I am asking, what is the process of the brain that makes images?
55:16 Q: Isn't it natural?

K: It is natural.

Q: Yes.
55:21 K: Natural being convenient, habit.
55:31 Is this too difficult?
55:37 Q: Mostly the only means by which we communicate which each other are through these...
55:43 K: Are you saying it is the only means of communication?
55:51 Q: It seems that normally we communicate in that way, but there is communication which is not of this.
56:03 K: Tunki, you using the word 'communication'. Do you know what that word means? To communicate. Can you communicate something you want to tell me if I am looking out of the window?
56:27 Tunki, I am saying, you want to tell me something, which is to communicate with me about something, right?
56:35 And when I am not paying attention to what you are saying, can you communicate with me?
56:43 Q: No.
56:45 K: So, communication implies that I must pay attention to what you are saying. Go on, next, what does communication mean?
57:02 I must listen to you, I mustn't distort what you are saying to suit myself, I must listen to you to find out what you are saying.
57:17 Which means I must be interested in what you are saying. Which means I cannot carry on a conversation with myself all the time while I am listening to you.
57:34 It means I must pay attention to you, doesn't it, and be interested in what you are saying, and share with you what you are saying.
57:48 All that is implied in that word communication. Now, will you listen to what I have to say? I want to communicate with you, which means that you must pay attention, that you mustn't carry on a conversation with yourself, that you must listen very carefully, not distort what the man is saying.
58:12 Can you do that?
58:16 Q: Yes.

K: All right.
58:20 K: I say to you: why do you create images?
58:31 For what reason? Is it because it is convenient, satisfying, it gives you a certain stability in relationship with the other?
58:46 Though you may be married to me, and if you say, I don't know you really, it is a very disturbing factor.
58:59 So you always want to have a non-disturbing relationship with another.
59:06 Therefore one of the reasons is, you create a picture about that person.
59:14 Have you listened to that?
59:21 Now, what he is saying, is that a fact or just an illusion?
59:39 Q: An image makes a non-disturbing factor of communication. You said that an image would make it non-disturbing.
59:50 K: Look, I have an image about the Pope, that he is a holy man, that he is extraordinarily bright, extraordinarily intelligent and near God, near the highest, and when I meet him I see he is just like any other person.
1:00:12 I don't want that, to discover that he is just like anybody else. So I have created an image which is very satisfying to me. Oh, come on, this is so simple. I create an image about my father, my mother, my wife, which must be satisfactory.
1:00:36 If it is not, it is very disturbing. That is all.
1:00:47 And have you got an image and therefore satisfied with it, and afraid that it will be disturbed?
1:01:12 I believe, suppose I do, in Catholicism. And my parents are Catholic and my grandmother or grandfather was Catholic, and that is the image they have given to me.
1:01:31 If I throw that away, my relationship with my father, my mother, with my grandfather will be very disturbing, because they believe and I don't believe.
1:01:48 Q: Supposing I say, I have images and I find them disturbing. The other way around.
1:01:54 K: Yes. That is, they are disturbing, therefore you are living in an illusion, aren't you?
1:02:11 Q: I might get rid of it.
1:02:13 K: How do you get rid of images? Not how. The how means a system, a method, a practice, then that becomes another image.
1:02:28 You want to find out how never to form an image, any kind of image.
1:02:38 Image means pictures, conclusions, and a series of ideas, to which become real.
1:02:52 So, how do you get rid of images? Tell me, come on.
1:03:02 Q: The very fact that I am listening and looking at you, I already have an image.
1:03:07 K: Of course. Look, Tunki, we are talking not physical image, but we are talking of psychological, inward images we make about others.
1:03:22 Q: With a certain connotation.
1:03:24 K: I make an image about you as an Indonesian, coming from Jakarta or whatever, and that image prevents me from looking at you.
1:03:36 I say, yes, he is an Indonesian, get on with it.
1:03:41 Q: But it is also a physical fact that he is an Indonesian.
1:03:45 K: Of course, that is a physical fact.
1:03:49 Q: So when does it become...
1:03:50 K: When it becomes I have prejudices about Indonesians.
1:03:58 Q: So there is another factor which comes.
1:04:00 K: I have prejudice about being a Hindu or whatever it is, so the prejudice is my picture, which prevents me having any kind of relationship with another, full stop.
1:04:17 This seems so simple, no?
1:04:25 If I live in a world that is very capitalistic and somebody calls me a communist – you get disturbed, don't you?
1:04:39 Because you have a picture of a communist. So, let's get on with it. Now, next question is: how do you stop making pictures?
1:04:54 Q: The connotation behind the image is the one which is disturbed.
1:04:59 K: We have been through that, Tunki. The next question is: is it possible to stop making images?
1:05:10 Is it? Come on.
1:05:17 Q: Don't we have to really see that images are images? Maybe that is part of the problem, that we think the images are real.
1:05:25 K: Look, I have an image about you, that you are very clever or that you are very stupid.
1:05:36 Image is a conclusion, isn't it? Now, I live with that conclusion and meet you. So I am already prejudiced against you. So that prejudice separates you and me, and I am willing to fight you, I am willing to kill you.
1:06:01 In order not to fight, not to kill, not to have the eternal war between you and me, it is important that I should be free of images, conclusions about you.
1:06:13 That is all. Keep it very simple. Now, I have prejudices about you. Is it possible not to have prejudice against people?
1:06:28 No?
1:06:29 Q: I don't understand.
1:06:33 Q: She didn't understand the words.
1:06:35 K: Prejudice, pre-judge people. I have concluded that all Italians are sentimental, are romantic – that is my conclusion.
1:06:54 So when I have a prejudice of that kind, I am against Italians, aren't I?
1:07:05 That is all.
1:07:08 Q: We are saying that the root is satisfaction.
1:07:16 K: It is part of my education, part of my environment, which says all communists, all Italians, all Germans, all English or Americans are stupid, or very clever, or they really want to kill me – you follow?
1:07:38 No, not only satisfaction, it is an easy way of living.
1:07:47 A very easy way of living – come to a conclusion, that all Hindus are – whatever it is.
1:07:57 It is a conclusion and it is easy to live that way.
1:08:02 Q: In the short term.
1:08:05 K: Yes, of course.
1:08:06 Q: Not in the long term.
1:08:08 K: I went up to town yesterday and there were two Britishers, English people, sitting next to me, and they talked endlessly from the moment they got on the train at Petersfield until they left for London, at Waterloo.
1:08:24 And they never looked at me, they never talked to me, and probably they say, 'Oh, you know, he is that crack from Brockwood,' and went on with their conversation.
1:08:43 Which is, they have already a prejudice, because of the colour, and they have already come to a conclusion that people who live in Brockwood are a little bit kooky and so on.
1:09:04 Q: On the other hand, our thinking that they may think that way, it is also our image.
1:09:11 K: What?

Q: Yes.
1:09:14 Q: Our thought which says that those people may think that way, that is our image.
1:09:20 K: No, Tunki, I just said this. I was just trying to point out how prejudices are created, and we stick to those prejudices because then I have finished with it, I don't examine, there is no learning.
1:09:44 I don't want to find out what Brockwood really is, what kind of people they really are, but I have dismissed them, saying, well, they are a little bit touched, they are a little bit odd people, that is all.
1:10:04 You are all rather bored, aren't you?
1:10:08 Q: The question is: how do you know they were prejudiced?
1:10:12 K: How do you know they were prejudiced?
1:10:21 Forget them, for heaven's sake!
1:10:28 Haven't you got prejudices about people? No?
1:10:37 JH: I don't know until I am in relationship with them.
1:10:39 K: Oh, for goodness sake, you don't have to be in relationship with me to know you don't like brown people or black people or white people or pink people.
1:10:47 JH: Yes, but that is all still springing from me, and in fact when I meet some quite different perception, then there is movement and there is a whole mass of questions I don't know.
1:11:04 K: You may never come into contact or relationship with a communist but you have prejudices about him already.
1:11:13 JH: Yes, but on that level I can see those.
1:11:16 K: That is all I am talking, at that level only for the time.
1:11:25 So, there is that level, superficial level. Can you go deeper and say, look, why have I these prejudices, about anything?
1:11:53 If you want to go into it very deeply: why is thought always in operation?
1:12:09 You understand my question?
1:12:16 Why is thinking a constant movement?
1:12:25 You understand? Are you interested in this?
1:12:35 Have you noticed in yourself that you are always thinking about something or other?
1:12:46 About your hair, about your looks, about what somebody said, that you must polish your shoes, that you must do this, you must do that, or I am going to be very nice to meet that man tomorrow – chattering, chattering, chattering, all the time.
1:13:02 Have you noticed that? Then, have you asked why?
1:13:13 Q: It is the result of education. It is the result of the surroundings and education.
1:13:25 K: I am asking you, Tunki, why is your brain always in activity?
1:13:36 And because it is constantly in operation, you don't listen, you don't observe, you don't see.
1:13:47 So, is it possible to stop chattering?
1:13:54 Not verbally but actually stop this movement of chatter?
1:14:06 If you can stop it then you won't form images.
1:14:16 Do you see that? Can you stop your chattering? Go on, sir, find out. Learn about it.
1:14:39 Q: It seems to be difficult when there are unresolved problems.
1:14:43 K: Yes. So you say, unresolved problem, therefore why do you carry on? Resolve them.
1:14:50 Carol Smith: The chattering seems to prevent the solving, to prevent the actual looking at problems.
1:15:00 It is almost as though it is a safety mechanism that thought evolves so that one finds it quite difficult to actually look at a situation.
1:15:17 K: But his question was, you have unresolved problems. Why don't you resolve them immediately, but carry on and on all the time?
1:15:31 CS: Well, the mind is chattering.

K: No, no. I have a problem: that I think I am great man and you have pulled me down, and I get angry.
1:15:45 That is a problem. Now, why don't I end it instead of carrying it on day after day? You understand my question? Why?
1:16:01 Have you got problems? Why don't you end them, so that your mind or your brain can look at something else instead of always your problem?
1:16:15 JH: Because I am not at that level of energy.
1:16:18 K: Oh, no. Suppose I said, look, you will have plenty of energy if you drop your problems.
1:16:41 I read something which interests me. I don't make it a problem, I want to go into it, I want to find out if it is true or false, I want to inquire very, very deeply into it, I don't make it into a problem.
1:17:02 Right? Now, in the same way I have a problem, which is, unresolved action or unresolved thought, unresolved emotion – I am separating them for the moment, they are all the same – why don't I say at that moment when I have a problem, work at it and resolve it?
1:17:35 Harsh Tankha: There seem to be two kinds of problems, Krishnaji. If there is a broken door and that is a problem, I can fix it. But then there are problems that are created by thought itself, and those are problems that I can't quite see clearly.
1:17:50 K: Therefore I have to inquire. Thought has created this problem. Can thought stop creating problems? Which means, can thought stop? You don't go into it! Brian Jenkins: But Krishnaji, even before thought, there are problems which seem to involve other people, and I am conditioned and the other person is conditioned, so how does one resolve those kind of problems?
1:18:23 K: I am conditioned and you are conditioned. We meet, our conditions react.
1:18:34 I observe very carefully that in contact with you my condition reacts.
1:18:45 I am aware of that reaction, so I say, can that reaction stop? Which means, can that conditioning stop? I inquire, push. I don't say, can it stop, and go to sleep. Can that conditioning, which was indicated by the response and contact with your conditioning, can that conditioning be dissolved?
1:19:17 So I say, what is conditioning? Conditioning is a prejudice, one kind of prejudice, education and so on and so on – so, a prejudice.
1:19:28 Can I really live without any prejudice?
1:19:37 Of course you can if you go into it.
1:19:44 Well, we had better stop, no?
1:19:51 Now, may I ask something? What have you learned this morning? Have you learned anything at all?
1:20:12 Or are you the same as when you entered this hall?
1:20:20 Is there a change in you, or as you were before, or you are beginning to have an insight into what has been said?
1:20:33 Insight, that is, you have understood very carefully, deeply what has been said.
1:20:41 And because you have that insight it is like a seed, you put it in the earth and it grows, it multiplies.
1:20:51 So if you have that insight, it will operate, it will work.
1:20:59 Have you understood what I have said? Well, that is enough this morning. Are you hungry?
1:21:16 We had better stop. All right, may I stop?