Krishnamurti Subtitles
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BR76DT2 - How do you bring about order without authority?
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| 0:24 K: Shall we go on from where we left off? We were saying, the day before yesterday, when we met, I’m a new teacher arriving here for the first time, meeting people who have lived here, taught here, and have heard K talking a great deal about all this for the last five, seven or two years. And, as a new teacher coming here – I am the new teacher, coming here – I ask them, ‘Please, I would like to learn from you all what you have gained, or what you have been informed about, not only the teachings but how to transmit these teachings to the students, through their regular subjects.’ So they first said to me, if I am a new teacher, I had it and I forgot it. It will come back in a minute. |
| 2:04 Questioner: One of the things was not to create a group around oneself. |
| 2:07 K: That’s the second one. |
| 2:08 Q: The first one was to come off the pedestal. |
| 2:12 K: Yes. They said to me, ‘What is important is to establish right relationship between yourself and the student. And you cannot do this if you’re sitting on a platform or a pedestal as a teacher and treating the children as though down below you. Come off the pedestal and establish a relationship of mutual learning.’ ‘That’s the first thing you must learn here. That’s what we have learnt, and you also must learn that. Which is, don’t approach the student or any of us as though you knew a great deal more than the student does. 3:05 You, as well as the student, are learning together. So you establish then a relationship which is mutual.’ And also, they said to me, ‘If you come here, what we have learnt is that you must have no motive – which means self-interest.’ Before that, they also told me that because I come off the pedestal I must be very careful not to form a group round myself, which will be another form of status. And also they said, ‘You’re here, really, not only to learn but also to have no self-interest, which means no motive.’ 4:27 And I said, ‘I understand all this, verbally, I see the reason for it, the logical, intellectual reason for all this. But have you, who have lived here for so many years, no self-interest, no motive? Have you also established a right relationship between yourself and the student? Or are you taking me up the garden path?’ You know that expression? Right. Or is it we’re all working together to bring this about? That’s where we left off last time we were here. I’m still the new teacher and I still want to know, because I want to learn from you, how you act as a community, because you’re here, about eighty, seventy people, or one hundred, whatever the number is – what is your relationship with each other? 5:59 Is there any authority which dominates this whole structure? We won’t use the word ‘structure’ – this whole operation. Now, let’s start with that. Is there – as a new teacher, I’m asking – is there any authority? We’ve talked about freedom, which implies a relationship with each other which is non-authoritarian. Now, how do you work this out, in a community of this kind, with different types of people, different temperaments, different qualities of intellect, some very bright and others are not, intellectually, you know a great deal, and so on – how do you work this out? 7:10 To have no authority amongst ourselves and see that the student has no authority either, but yet have order. Now, I’m starting this this morning. |
| 7:28 Mary Zimbalist: Can we, at the same time, establish clearly for the record, what is meant and not meant by ‘motive’? Because misunderstanding that is quite easy. |
| 7:42 K: We’ll go back to that, if you don’t mind, because that involves a great deal. To live without a motive implies enormous inward clarity. We’ll come to that when we have laid the whole thing out. So how do you, as a teacher in the class, how do you as a teacher outside the class bring about order without authority? Please, tell me how you do it, because I want to learn from you. I’m the new teacher, I’m passionately interested in this – not merely intellectually, I’m not merely here for a job, but I like this whole way of living. So please, help me to learn how to deal with the student, that having no authority doesn’t imply disorder, having no authority doesn’t imply each one does what he likes, because we’re all living in a small community, together, responsible for the whole of this school, the buildings, the gardens – the whole of it. 9:29 As we said, it’s like a man in a submarine, every sailor is responsible for the whole total movement of the submarine. So, how do you work this out with the student so that he doesn’t create disorder, that he is punctual, that he’s orderly, etc., etc. – how do you work this out? |
| 10:00 Carol Smith: You mentioned it doesn’t mean doing what you like, and I think many students, people do equate freedom with that word and they equate authority with the opposite, in other words, someone telling them what to do. Perhaps we have to start with what does it mean, ‘what you like’? |
| 10:27 K: So how do you work this out? I’m learning from you all. I’m the new teacher here – how do you work this out? |
| 10:38 CS: By going into how the likes and dislikes become established and what is behind them. |
| 10:48 K: Please tell me, I’m learning. I’m here for the first time, I’m very eager to learn how you do this – not how only, not the method, but how did this come about, to have no authority? We won’t go into all the inward meaning of it, which is extremely complex, but dealing with each other and with the student, who comes here conditioned, rebellious, in revolt against all authority, inclined to do what he likes, and resisting or being impudent when you say, ‘We have no…’ all that follows. How do you, in what way do you communicate to the student this non-authoritarian way of living? |
| 12:09 Brian Jenkins: Could we begin by not coming to any conclusion as to whether there is an authority or there is not an authority, and then look to see? |
| 12:19 K: How do you do it? What do you do? Do you actually do this? You, Mr Jenkins, do you actually begin saying to yourself, ‘Look, I don’t know anything about it, let’s find out’? Have you done this, or are you telling me as an idea, or as an actuality? Sorry, I’m the new teacher, I have a right to question you. |
| 12:52 Joe Zorskie: In one sense, we do it. The students are... at almost every meeting some student will say, ‘You are acting as an authority in this case, in this instance.’ So we look at it. We’re sometimes... you know, this rule or this suggestion or this idea... |
| 13:18 K: Do you talk, if I may ask, do you discuss this problem with the student? |
| 13:24 JZ: We have to go into it. It’s raised time and time again. |
| 13:27 K: So what happens at the end of the discussion, at the end of the year? Do they understand the complexity of the nature of non-authoritarian activity and therefore, they are orderly? |
| 13:48 BJ: I think some of them do, yes. |
| 13:52 K: What do you mean, ‘some of them’? The majority of them don’t? |
| 13:59 BJ: The majority don’t. |
| 14:00 K: Why? Sir, I’m the new teacher, so I’m learning from you, I’m not being impudent. Why haven’t the majority of them learnt? Have you, as a teacher, conveyed to the student this way of living, and do you have no authority, and therefore, are you capable of co-operation? Authority means... I mean, authority to an idea... An ideal establishes an authority, for which we are all working together, for an ideal. Or a person who represents that ideal, who then becomes the authority. 15:15 Or we have ourselves ideals and we want to establish those ideals here. Or we feel this way of living, a non-authoritarian way, and therefore we’ll co-operate with each other. I don’t know if I am conveying this. Do we do this here? When you tell me, as a new teacher, not to be self-centred, without a motive, is there an authoritarian drive in me? You follow? Please, I am a new teacher, please teach me, I want to learn from you. |
| 16:31 CS: I don’t quite follow you. Is the old teacher who’s telling the new teacher, assuming an authoritarian...? |
| 16:44 K: So you tell the student, ‘Look, learn about authority.’ Is that it? Learn about disorder, learn about order. You are insisting, with the student and with each other, that we are here to learn. That means I’m willing to learn about a way of living in which there is no authority. |
| 17:23 CS: But the students who are willing to learn, learn, and the question of those who are not in tune with it or are blocked, don’t. |
| 17:35 K: So I’ll find a way, if this is what we think, what you all think, or you’ve found this the right way – we will then approach the boy or the student who doesn’t accept any of this, then we’ll deal with him. How to deal with him – we’ll come to that in a minute. But do we together, all of us, accept this? That there is no authority. |
| 18:21 JZ: We certainly accept it as an idea. |
| 18:25 K: No, no, not as an idea. |
| 18:28 JZ: But in practice, I think that we always have to be sensitive to… We have to be able to see when we are acting as authorities. |
| 18:39 K: Quite. |
| 18:41 JZ: So it’s a kind of learning process for us, because apparently there are many subtle ways in which you can act authoritatively. |
| 18:52 K: I’m willing to learn from you the implications of authority, all the things involved – fear, conflict in myself, and so on. |
| 19:11 Dorothy Simmons: Do you call it authority, Krishnaji, in sending out a school statement. You’re making clear something different from somewhere else. Does that come into the category of authority? |
| 19:24 K: No. You’re teaching me. I’m still the new teacher. Don’t ask me as a... |
| 19:31 DS: It’s a constant challenge from students, that it is. |
| 19:36 K: So, in your letter you say, ‘We are non-authoritarian.’ |
| 19:42 DS: We don’t say that, no. |
| 19:44 K: More or less implied. |
| 19:46 DS: Yes. |
| 19:47 K: And a boy comes, a student comes here, and finds there is no authority, and naturally he will then do exactly what he wants to do. |
| 20:02 MZ: Also, he interprets the conditions laid out in that letter as a form of authority, and he comes here saying, ‘You’re just like everybody else, only you call it non-authority.’ |
| 20:12 K: No. I want to find out how to deal with those...? |
| 20:18 DS: Well, we say... just take the perennial one: long hair, short hair. We say we’re not interested in long or short hair, but we do give an indication that long hair and your personal appearance is something that we have got some views about. |
| 20:41 K: Now, how do you...? I’m sorry, I’m still the new teacher. I know how you deal with it because I’ve lived here, but as a new teacher I say to myself, ‘How do these people meet this thing: long hair, short hair?’ How do you… what do you do? |
| 21:02 DS: Talk it over with them, endlessly, on and on and on. And eventually they begin to see the reason of why we don’t want to draw attention to ourselves over this particular thing – it is gone into. |
| 21:16 K: So, the endless talk, you’re bored with it, aren’t you? |
| 21:25 DS: No, I’m not bored with it at all. |
| 21:28 K: You get fed up with this, don’t you? You get fed up with this, everlastingly telling me... |
| 21:36 DS: I don’t think I’m at liberty to be fed up with it. |
| 21:39 K: Aren’t you? |
| 21:41 DS: No. |
| 21:43 K: Then you must be extraordinarily patient. |
| 21:45 DS: I think I am. |
| 21:47 K: So I’ve learnt one thing. In a school here, you’re very patient. You don’t kick the pants of the boy, but you say, ‘Well, I’ll talk to him, I’ll talk, talk, talk.’ |
| 22:06 DS: Until they see something of what we’re trying to get across, but then they will say, ‘Well, isn’t that a motive?’ |
| 22:17 K: Are you imposing – I’m learning from you, don’t jump on me – are you imposing your authority on him? Short hair, long hair. Short hair is better than long hair. If you have long hair, keep it neat, combed, tidy, clean. Is that all Victorian? I saw the other day at the gathering – I was so surprised – to see a woman, who must have been to India, who has never combed her hair. Plaits – you know? Thick plaits. Now, there is a certain sect in India, monks, who never comb their hair or their beard. |
| 23:06 CS: They never wash it? They never wash their hair either? |
| 23:12 K: I don’t think they wash it – or they do something or other. But I’ve seen them, plaits – they are like felt. It smells. I’ve sat next to them, I know. Anyhow, I saw this woman. I said, ‘Good Lord!’ Now, is there a different way of dealing with those students long hair, instead of endlessly talking to them? It must be tiring. It may not be boring, it must be exhausting for you. |
| 23:55 DS: You can learn quite a lot in the course of attempting to get it across. |
| 24:01 K: So it is exhausting. |
| 24:03 DS: Well, I survived. |
| 24:06 K: It is tiring – let’s put it that way. |
| 24:10 DS: Yes. |
| 24:11 K: So what shall we do? |
| 24:12 DS: It isn’t necessarily, because if you really do meet that, go into it, you’re really having to discover for yourself why you are saying this, why this is being said. |
| 24:26 K: Because I’ve been to some school, where long hair and beard is the Eton collar. So, I accept it. Here you have come along and you say, ‘No, sorry, you can’t have that.’ Are you overpowering the student by constant repetition? |
| 24:59 Montague Simmons: They come first of all having read a statement, and the idea is, do I want, as you put your film, to live this way? In coming, they have said they did, which includes all these things we’ve been talking about. |
| 25:14 K: No, I want to know, sir, how you deal with all this, if you have no authority. Ordinary schools say, ‘Please, go...’ ‘You must have short hair, if you don’t, please get out.’ That’s the end of it. But here we’re not like that. |
| 25:34 DS: No, we don’t do it that way. |
| 25:35 K: No, we don’t do that. |
| 25:36 DS: How you do it is very important. |
| 25:38 K: We’d like to do it that way, but we don’t do it that way. |
| 25:41 DS: Would we like to do it that way? I question that. |
| 25:45 K: So how do you deal with this? Is there a way – I’m just asking, I’m not telling – is there a way of dealing with this problem without constant repetition, talking over, pointing out, day after day, exhausting, tiring? I know it... Do you do it or do we all do it? Silence. Is it that you only do it, madame? |
| 26:28 DS: No, I think if somebody comes with an enormous lot of hair, people will tend at first to think, ‘Oh my God, it’s not my job,’ but I think they do get around to it, and I think it is done by most of the staff. |
| 26:43 K: I’m asking – I’m here as a new teacher, I want to learn from you – do we all do it, or do you do it? |
| 26:51 DS: It’s done by all. |
| 26:52 K: Yes? |
| 26:54 Q: Yes. |
| 26:56 K: My God! The poor student. |
| 27:01 CS: They usually get a haircut straight away. Doesn’t last long. |
| 27:08 K: That’s a form of pressure, isn’t it? Which is authoritarian. |
| 27:15 DS: Not necessarily. |
| 27:17 K: No, no, don’t dodge the issue. |
| 27:19 DS: If you’ve pointed it out and taken the trouble to say, ‘Look, this is why we feel this way...’ |
| 27:24 K: I understand. It’s a pressure. |
| 27:26 DS: No. You have said you feel, through your experience, or through our joint experience that this is the simplest, most forthright way of dealing with something that is a social problem. |
| 27:43 K: No, Mrs D, that’s not... It’s a peaceful pressure. |
| 27:53 Shakuntala Narayan: Not if the student understands. Sometimes the student understands fairly fast. |
| 27:58 K: I understand all this. I want to find a way of not exercising pressure but let the student do it. |
| 28:10 Ingrid Porter: Can I give an example: if someone comes to a drawing class and they are doing imitative cartoons of the town they were brought up in, and you change their medium, or they agree to change their medium so they’re working in a different scale, they function differently, and they’re listening differently and they are experiencing differently. Next week, they will still, usually, return to that. And this process seems to have to go on and on and on, until... |
| 28:45 K: That’s what I… I don’t want… that’s terribly boring to me, as a new teacher, – if I come here – to repeat, say the same thing over, and say, ‘Please...’ etc., etc. Is there a way of doing it differently? |
| 29:05 MZ: But isn’t that very situation a platform for what we are generally going into here, which is, you come with all sorts of notions and you examine them? |
| 29:18 K: No, you see, what I am trying to get at, madame, – I’m the new teacher. |
| 29:25 DS: I’m very sorry we appointed you! Why did we choose you? |
| 29:37 MZ: What about vegetarianism? How do you feel about that? |
| 29:43 K: There’s something not right about this – forgive me. |
| 29:47 JZ: About what? |
| 29:48 K: Constant repetition. |
| 29:50 JZ: The repetition, not the long hair. You’re not saying that you’d like to see some long hair. |
| 29:58 K: No. I’m objecting, if I come here as a new teacher, I don’t want to keep on telling the boy, ‘Don’t, don’t, don’t’ or, ‘Do, do, do,’ in a most polite way or reasonable way. But I don’t want to do that, I want to find a different way of doing it, because that, again, creates a habit. |
| 30:24 SN: So then, what you’re saying is that we’ve got to convey to the student, instantly. |
| 30:33 K: You understand, Shakuntala, I’d like to find out, madame... |
| 30:38 SN: Yes, but if you say we can’t use repetition... |
| 30:42 K: I don’t want to repeat. |
| 30:43 SN: Yes. |
| 30:44 K: I want to tell him once, and finish with it. |
| 30:51 SN: And you’re saying it must penetrate. |
| 30:53 K: No, I want to find a way of telling him once, making him listen and do it. |
| 31:00 DS: That’s what we do but it takes time... |
| 31:06 K: I don’t want to take time over such silly stuff. |
| 31:10 DS: Until he has seen it, I see it, but until he’s seen it... |
| 31:14 K: I want him to see it, instantly. |
| 31:17 Scott Forbes: Part of the problem is that you want him to see something that he doesn’t want to see, and he deliberately and pointedly doesn’t want to see it. |
| 31:26 K: But I must find a way of making him see it. |
| 31:28 Ted Cartee: But wouldn’t he consider the fact of how he’s listening, since, at first, it doesn’t seem to be... |
| 31:35 K: No, you see, I want him to learn. I come here as a new teacher to learn. He comes here as a student to learn. |
| 31:45 DS: So we have to answer his questions. |
| 31:47 K: To learn. By constant repetition, he’s not learning. |
| 31:52 DS: No, but the repetition is in, ‘I don’t see why I should.’ |
| 31:58 K: I want him to avoid all that. |
| 32:03 TC: But if you’re saying that we’re going to go into something one time and to then be finished with it, the participants have to be listening to each other. |
| 32:16 K: Ted, I want – Mr Ted – I want to find a way of doing this differently. There must be. Than this constant... on the part of all of you, every day, saying, ‘Look, do this, do this’ or ‘Don’t, don’t.’ |
| 32:39 Harsh Tanka: The constant repetition is not in saying, ‘You must not do this’ but it’s more like a constant attempt to make the student aware of just his entire, general behaviour and being in the school. |
| 33:08 K: I have a habit, a certain habitual way of thinking, or habitual doing things with my finger, whatever – habit. Do you attack the habit or do you gradually wear down the habit? You understand what I am saying? Am I conveying it? |
| 33:33 HT: We don’t say, ‘Don’t do this, don’t...’ |
| 33:36 K: You are gradually wearing down the habit, long hair. |
| 33:46 HT: No, I think we are more trying to get the student to a point where he will see for himself, without actually... |
| 33:55 K: Which is what? – I want to convey something – which is, to break down the habit-forming machinery. |
| 34:06 HT: Yes. |
| 34:09 K: Would that be right? I’m a new teacher. Please, I’m learning from you. Would you do that? That is, break down the habit-forming machinery in a human being. That’s what you’re concerned with, otherwise, he can’t learn. I wonder, am I conveying something, sir? Because if you tell him we stand for short hair, or whatever it is, that becomes another habit. Could we attack this in a different way altogether, in which you are really concerned with the unconditioning of the mind, which is an enormous habit? I’m a Catholic for the rest of my life. What you’re trying to do is to break down that habit. 35:28 Right? Now, how would you do this? Because as I am a teacher here, I don’t want to repeat it. It bores me to extinction to repeat something. So I must find a way of dealing with this differently, which is habit – because he has been to a school where long hair is necessary, beard and all the rest of it, and that’s his habit, like smoking. He comes here and we say, ‘Don’t smoke’ – politely try to show it to him, the dangers of it, and all the rest of it, which is the habit-forming. So can we go after habit? |
| 36:28 HT: The trouble with habit is that by its very nature we are unaware of what we are doing. |
| 36:36 K: So I’m asking... Because at the end of two years, four years that he’s here, you want him to be supremely intelligent. |
| 36:51 DS: Yes, he is, but then he goes off and the next crop comes. He probably does. You are meeting this situation with a new student and then he sees it. There’s one boy coming this term – his hair was out here – not Henry. He’s not arrived yet. And through letter I’ve had to do exactly this. And not just saying, ‘You can’t’ – I don’t think that’s good enough, or, ‘We don’t have long hair here.’ I’ve had to go into it time and time again, in about four letters. 37:25 And I said, ‘Look, if you can’t see what one’s driving at, it’s best not to come here, because I don’t want to impose anything on you at all, you must see it for yourself. So he writes back by return of post, ‘I want to come. I see what you’re saying.’ But that goes on with each student. It takes a certain amount of time with each one. But then, no sooner do they break the habit then a fresh group of students come, and you’ve got to start all over again. |
| 37:53 K: I understand it. |
| 37:56 CS: He sort of drives... or many students, they’ll drive the staff to a point where they say, ‘All right, now we have to exercise our seniority.’ And then they see it really is a serious matter and then they’ll pay it some attention. But there’s a lot of testing going on with the students. In an atmosphere where we’re not telling anyone, ‘You must do this,’ how far they must push before we say, like you had to say, ‘If you really can’t see this clearly then it’s better if you don’t come.’ |
| 38:29 DS: After you’ve taken the trouble to go into why. |
| 38:32 JZ: All too often, we’re driven to the point of threatening exile. Put it that way. We have to suggest to people that if they don’t see it themselves then they shouldn’t be here. (Inaudible)...to come here because of the rules, and if they don’t agree, if they don’t see it, they can’t come here. Or, in certain cases, when the behaviour is infectious, if it’s violence or sexual mores, we’ve had to ask them to leave. |
| 39:03 DS: I can think of three, in the whole time. |
| 39:06 CS: But many times a student may come, and their first term here and their behaviour in general is not acceptable, and when we talk to them, it’s brought out it’s not acceptable and do they see it and they are willing to change? I mean, if they don’t change, it’s clear that this place is not for them, etc., etc. So that is in their minds. They bring us, many times, to that point. |
| 39:36 K: You understand, I’m the new teacher. I am trying to find out… I know this method, this way, but to me that’s most unsatisfactory, somehow, it goes against my grain. |
| 39:57 JZ: It’s unsatisfactory to us old teachers, too. |
| 40:02 K: Yes, therefore, let’s find out together if there is a different approach to this question. |
| 40:16 SN: Is it that we often deal with the student in a fragmentary way rather than in a whole way? |
| 40:24 K: How do you do that? How do you do that? Is that an idea or...? I don’t know. I want to find out how to do this. If I’m a student, I come here, long hair or whatever it is, and you point it out to me and I begin to have an insight into what you’re talking about. Because I want to be here. My parents and I have written letters to you – I want to come here. And yet I have this habit, tremendous habit in me. You’re attacking the habit, aren’t you? Not long hair, short hair, but through habit you point out the long hair, short hair. So, you want to break down the habit-making mind, or brain. How do you do that? |
| 41:48 Philip Brew: Isn’t that the reality of the situation, that we do want to break down the habit, and it’s not that we don’t like the long hair? |
| 42:05 K: Sir, not long hair. I come here from America or from India. I don’t know how to eat at a table. I take the fork, bung it in, cut it, and shove it in. Wait. No, repetition – I want to attack the habit that he has made of that, not tell him, ‘Eat this way or that way.’ We’ll come to that later, but the habit that has made him do that. |
| 42:35 PB: That is my point. If I see it as it’s not interesting to me the like or dislike I have for that way of eating, but I do want to break down his habit, then with that interest, will not the habit be broken down? |
| 42:54 K: I want to find out how to break down, so that I don’t form habits. Then you have… it’s very simple. |
| 43:03 MZ: But at that point the student may think that we all have the habit of eating in a different way |
| 43:08 K: Therefore, when I talk to the student I want to be clear that I am breaking down the habit, too. I’m learning with the student, because I’ve come off the pedestal and therefore I am learning with the student how not to form habits. |
| 43:28 MZ: But with regard to eating, we all... |
| 43:31 K: No, leave eating, long hair, short hair – leave all that aside. I want to find out, as a teacher here, to break down habit-forming – like smoking, drinking, all the rest of it – to stop any habit, so that his mind is very alert all the time. |
| 43:58 Jane Hoare: It seems to me that there are moments of attention, mutual attention, when habits do drop. |
| 44:05 K: Not at moments. It is necessary that we don’t form habits. And I want to help the student to do that. How do I do it? What shall we do, together? Come on, sir, what shall we do? If the student understands why he shouldn’t form habits, what it does to the brain – limits it, conditions it, harms it, makes it small, narrow, petty – if I could convey that to him, after conveying it to him, then I’d talk to him about how to eat, his hair, this, that. He would then grasp it, instantly. Could we do this, sir? |
| 45:30 DS: But that requires a sensibility... |
| 45:34 K: Yes, sensibility. How do I create sensibility in the boy who comes here after eating meat, smoke, all the filth he has collected? |
| 45:44 DS:...insensibility all his life. |
| 45:46 K: I know. Therefore, what am I to do? And I don’t want to repeat over and over... boring, irritating – it exhausts me. |
| 46:00 DS: Not necessarily. |
| 46:01 K: It does to me. I don’t want to do it. |
| 46:05 DS: If you’re interested in pointing out this habit, making it clear so that he understands it and sees it for himself, why is it boring? |
| 46:15 K: I’m attacking a much more important thing than short hair, long hair. |
| 46:20 DS: Yes, any habit. |
| 46:22 K: I’m saying, if I can help him to learn what sensitivity is and therefore prevent habit-forming, then when I talk to him about hair, how to hold… he will immediately see it himself. I don’t have to repeat it ten times. |
| 46:43 DS: But Krishnaji, you have repeated it ten times. You’ve shown them how to eat, you’ve said about long hair, short hair, general behaviour, and they don’t see it, they still go into the dining room, they put a lump of bread on their hand and they smarm butter on it. |
| 46:58 K: I know, I’ve seen all that. |
| 47:01 DS: They don’t see it instantly. |
| 47:04 K: Which is more important, smarming butter on their bread, is that more important than habit-forming? |
| 47:21 DS: I can’t see that putting it on a plate is not another habit. I can’t see that putting bread and butter on the plate and using a knife, sensitively, is not another habit. |
| 47:35 K: No, but he’s not learning, he’s carrying on what he’s done at home or at other schools, which has become his habit. And you are trying to correct that and not the machinery that makes habits. As a new teacher, I want to attack the habit-making. |
| 48:00 MZ: But do we butter our bread according to habit? |
| 48:03 K: No, no, leave it! Don’t go off on detail about... |
| 48:06 MZ: But this comes into it, in the mind of the student. |
| 48:10 K: To me, much more important is the habit-forming machinery. If I could change that so that he never forms habits, which means highly sensitive, watching, alert, watching others, watching... |
| 48:31 DS: That’s creating habit, too. That’s what creates tradition. |
| 48:35 K: That’s not habit. |
| 48:37 DS: It has tended to do so. It needn’t be. |
| 48:40 K: I refuse to... |
| 48:42 JZ: There are various kinds of habits. |
| 48:45 K: No, please, I’m using the word ‘habit’ – I know, a great many habits. So, just take… Look, sir, is there a way of conveying to each other and to the student so that he acts instantly? See the right thing and do it – finish with it. |
| 49:13 Stephen Smith: Don’t you have to lay the basis for that first of all, by attempting to learn with him what habit is, what its structure is, what its pattern is, what its movement is? Because we also have habits. |
| 49:28 K: Of course. |
| 49:29 SS: And therefore to see them is in itself part of that learning. |
| 49:34 K: Look, sir, suppose you have a habit of smoking. Can you drop it instantly, forget it, never to smoke again? |
| 49:44 SS: I have done. |
| 49:45 K: You can. Drop it, instantly. So, what was behind that? |
| 50:18 SS: Feeling that that was the right thing to do. That it was no longer appropriate, that it didn’t belong. |
| 50:38 BJ: Is it a perception that the brain tends to function in grooves, tends to function in habits, and that... |
| 50:45 K: Mr Jenkins, sir, you have a new teacher, so please... You have habits, haven’t you? Can you drop those habits, instantly, and not be told over and over and over again – politely, kindly, non-irritated, occasionally irritated, you know, explain, explain, watch and say, ‘Do this…’ Can you see your habit and drop it instantly? Habit of speech... |
| 51:19 DS: I might be able to as an adult, but as a child, I very much... |
| 51:26 K: I may repeat it after establishing this idea of breaking down habit, because then I’m interested in myself, whether I’m watching my own habit-forming. |
| 51:39 DS: That’s a very adult thing to do. |
| 51:42 K: Yes, but I want… it’s much more... I don’t think it is necessarily an adult thing to do, it may be related to something of being highly watchful, and children are very watchful. |
| 52:02 MZ: They are also much more prone than some adults to do exactly as their peers do. If the other young people eat in a certain way, they... |
| 52:14 K: They copy – of course, of course, of course. You see, they are watchful. |
| 52:19 MZ: But they are watchful within a... |
| 52:21 K: Doesn’t matter – they are watchful. Expand that watchfulness. |
| 52:27 MZ: That’s watchfulness to conform to the image of their generation. |
| 52:35 K: I understand that, but I want to expand that watchfulness. It’s my job to help him to learn, as he’s capable of watching, to say, ‘Watch everything, not only your little group.’ Watch how he combs – watch. |
| 52:55 JZ: But that form of watchfulness is closer to imitation. The people who grow long hair are not watching people grow long hair and then see the beauty of it, they want... |
| 53:09 K: They just fall into the trap of it. That’s all. Now, we want him to learn not to fall into traps. Therefore, he has to be watchful. What will you do, if that is so? How will you set about it? |
| 54:18 JH: It seems that if I’m aware of my own reactions it calls in other people... |
| 54:24 K: Madame, I’m a new teacher, therefore I don’t know you. Therefore, I’m not being impolite when I ask you, do you watch? And when you tell the student to watch, he might say to himself, ‘I won’t listen to you because you’re not watchful yourself. What the heck!’ Therefore, are you watchful? |
| 54:52 JH: Well, when I... |
| 54:56 K: No, not ‘when.’ |
| 54:59 Q: Wouldn’t we have to be watchful in our own habit-forming machinery? |
| 55:04 K: Are you watchful? I am the student. You tell me, ‘Be watchful, watch everything that is happening, that girl going on the cycle, the boy, and so on, watch everything, clouds, trees, watch, learn to watch. And I tell him, as a teacher, ‘Learn to watch.’ |
| 55:35 DS: Krishnaji, they have watched and they form many of their habits through watching. |
| 55:42 K: Therefore, you are helping the student learn that it’s much more important to be awake rather than, ‘Don’t do this, do that.’ Be awake. Then in that wakeful state you tell him, or we tell him, ‘Don’t...’ – you know, hair, short hair. I think he’ll be quicker grasping it, than taking months over it. |
| 56:32 JZ: With the clicking going on, I didn’t hear the sentence clearly. |
| 56:39 K: If I could, as a teacher, help him to learn what it means to be watchful, and together, student and me, learn together to be watchful, about everything – that girl moving there, you know, everything – then in that, while he’s learning, I tell him, ‘Look, watch your hair’ – you follow? – long hair, short hair, whatever. |
| 57:08 JZ: How are you going to do that, instantly? |
| 57:11 K: I think you can do it, if you can teach me how to be watchful, if I can learn to be watchful. |
| 57:21 JZ: You speak to the students all the time. You do it twice a week, sometimes. |
| 57:25 K: I’ve done it. They don’t. |
| 57:27 JZ: They don’t, no. |
| 57:28 K: No, why? That’s what I want to find out – why? They are not interested. I talk to large audiences – what? Constant repetition. I loathe that kind of thing, personally. They don’t listen, they don’t care, they’re attracted for various reasons, they come here for multiple reasons, and what shall I do? |
| 58:11 JZ: It’s not just... it goes deeper than a habit, it’s deeper than that. If we were to say, ‘Listen, don’t wear rings on this finger,’ people would say... |
| 58:21 K: No, I don’t want to go much deeper into it – we can if you want to – I’m just taking that as an example. If, when the habit-forming insensitivity comes into being, then all these problems arise. If we can help the student or help each other to be sensitive, which can only happen in watchfulness, you have solved, probably, 80% of the problem. |
| 58:50 DS: That is to educate them. |
| 58:53 K: Which is part of our education. |
| 58:58 DS: Which isn’t done instantly. |
| 59:03 K: I think it can be done. Personally, I don’t want to take many days to break down something. |
| 59:16 DS: To have discernment and weave your way to care, deeply, |
| 59:24 K: That’s what – care deeply. |
| 59:29 DS: It’s a mature thing to discover. |
| 59:32 K: I don’t think so. I think children have got the instinct to care, with their toys, with the dog – you follow? – they have this feeling for it. But it is only momentary. |
| 59:49 DS: See a child’s nursery now, and they don’t even care for the things they’re supposed to love. |
| 59:57 K: So, what shall we do? |
| 1:00:08 IP: If my own quality of energy is deep enough, something will happen. |
| 1:00:16 DS: Well, does it? |
| 1:00:17 MZ: But that’s not an answer. I don’t think we can say: if we bring an abstraction to a hypothetical situation, X will happen. I think we must... |
| 1:00:28 K: No, that’s why I don’t want to discuss hypothetically. |
| 1:00:38 TC: Doesn’t the issue of watchfulness immediately hinge on how partial or how complete it is? If you bring it up to, among ourselves, or in a particular case with the student, isn’t it then a question of what degree of watchfulness? |
| 1:00:57 K: Yes, I understand that, Ted. I think the question is – can we approach this problem also – why is it so difficult, that we don’t want to learn? Why don’t we want to learn? The other day, after one of the talks, an oldish man comes up to me, puts his hand on my shoulder – you were there – and whispers in my ear, saying, ‘You’re a lovely old man but you’re stuck in deep grooves.’ |
| 1:01:51 TC: A deep rut. |
| 1:01:52 K: Rut. And when I came to my room, I said to myself, ‘Am I stuck in a rut?’ I watched it all day, for three or four days, whether I am stuck in a rut. It interests me – you follow? I don’t want to be stuck in a rut, but if somebody tells me, however politely or impolitely, I watch it, because I want to learn. You follow? Now, how do we do this to the student? |
| 1:02:31 Q: By getting it first right amongst ourselves. |
| 1:02:34 K: You have said that, madame, before. Do you do it? We talk theory. I’m a new teacher, so don’t think I’m impolite. By Jove, I can get away with a lot, by saying that, can’t I? |
| 1:02:54 MZ: Sir, doesn’t the student perceive this as a kind of pressure? We say learn, or let’s learn, or learning, and he may feel that something’s wanting in him and it is suggested that something be different in him, and this activates a lot of resistance in many students. Can we get around that in some way? |
| 1:03:23 K: You see, one of my – I’m asking myself – I’ve talked for fifty years or more. Perhaps there are one or two, I don’t know, maybe more, but I have not met one or two who say, ‘Look, I’ve completely understood, I live that way, I’m going to burst with it.’ And I say, what is wrong? It may be the same thing with the student. You follow what I’m saying? Why should we spend our years on the students? If they don’t flower, what’s the point of it all? So, I say to myself, one of the reasons is this enormous habit-forming machinery that’s been so well-established – parents, children, and they come here, and you are trying to break that down. Right? |
| 1:04:28 TC: By the very construction of it, it doesn’t want to change. And the very movement of learning is the movement of change. |
| 1:04:37 K: Of course. Ted, what will you do with me who have got habits. I’ve got all kinds of things, as a student, and I come here, ‘What will you do?’ Talk to me, talk to me, talk to me, day after day? Take a month over it, or two months, a year, waste all your energy on breaking down some stupid little stuff? |
| 1:05:14 TC: But at the same time, the big, the habit, the learning issue is still in the same fix or predicament of challenging, not changing. |
| 1:05:28 MZ: The entire life training of that student or that human being is to reinforce habits. |
| 1:05:35 K: Yes, of course. That’s the easiest way of living – forming habits, ruts and grooves, and live there. |
| 1:05:44 DS: We are at an advantage in that any student coming here is disposed to looking at his habits before he comes here. He has approached us and said, ‘Look, this sounds different.’ That’s the most frequent thing said. So he’s disposed to it, so we’ve got a step in... |
| 1:06:04 K: I understand that. So, how do you cultivate, so that when he comes here, after a week, he has broken... That’s what I want to find out, I don’t want to waste my life on – you follow? Can we put a bomb under each of us and the students? |
| 1:07:02 JZ: Not all the students come here of their own accord. |
| 1:07:06 K: Of course not, Parents send them... |
| 1:07:10 JZ: The ones that do come looking for something different are the ones that do listen and do make some movement in this. |
| 1:07:26 K: Can we learn with him something much deeper than merely hair and – you follow? – all the rest of it. For God’s sake! |
| 1:08:16 BJ: Krishnaji, is it a question of vigilance, watching habits forming, or is it a question of finishing with habits altogether? |
| 1:08:30 K: Yes, that’s what I’m saying – finishing. |
| 1:08:33 BJ: But that might be a conclusion. |
| 1:08:35 K: No. I see, intellectually, reasonably, logically, habit-forming limits the mind, the activity of the brain and all the rest of it. It’s a very narrowing little affair. So, I see it. It’s not a conclusion, it is so. That’s a microphone. It’s not a conclusion, it is so. And seeing that, can it be broken down? |
| 1:09:16 DS: While you’re young, Krishnaji, that’s a very mature thing to see, that habit is a narrowing, limiting thing. A child who is still growing very often gets security... |
| 1:09:30 K: I know this – and therefore, gradually establishes into a groove and gone, finished. |
| 1:09:45 JZ: A lot of the students wouldn’t even know what the word meant. They’ve never seen any habit. |
| 1:09:54 PB: Because their habits are usually identified closely with themselves, as an individual, so-called. They’re very defensive against any perceived attack against themselves. |
| 1:10:14 CS: Perhaps last year, I don’t remember if it was you or Dr Bohm, there was a meeting and we got into the deep implications of the school or the schools, and there was a certain atmosphere in the room and the students present were very profoundly affected by seeing the entire picture. Now, I’m wondering perhaps if many of the students, if they don’t quite see the totality of the picture in terms of habits, where that leads to, and the steps leading to the whole way that human beings behave, and what we’re really trying to accomplish here. 1:10:55 Perhaps if the profound importance of this place was made clear to them not just starting with the small, but they had a whole picture. Then they may be able to fit into their proper place, their habits, their behaviour, how it all fits into this whole picture. Because I do remember that meeting was really something very special. |
| 1:11:21 K: I understand that. You see, when we talk, when you say, ‘No authority,’ you’re attacking a most fundamental thing – you follow? No authority means the authority of any habit. I’m a Christian, that’s a habit, I’m an American, I’m a Jew, I’m a Hindu, I’m this – that’s just habit. So, you’re breaking down everything man has built, basically. |
| 1:12:20 DS: We’re really saying, break down the habits of your ego. |
| 1:12:24 K: Yes, yes – habit, ego, all the rest of it – verbal... As a new teacher, I’m asking you, if there is no authority and you are helping me and the student to learn what freedom is, in which there is no authority, therefore, there is no pressure, there is no influence. You know, it’s one of the – you follow? – how immense, what the implications in it are. So that my mind, the mind is never influenced, and therefore, in itself, it has the seed of flowering. And I would like the student to learn this. So, as a group, are we really, deeply interested in this? |
| 1:14:19 DS: That’s to awaken intelligence. |
| 1:14:22 K: I’m asking, as a group, are we really, deeply concerned about this? That we stand… no, that we are learning together to have a brain and a mind that is not slave to something – slave to words, slave to an idea – Nothing. Therefore, it’s really free. Is that what we’re all working for? And if we are working for that, working, learning, then the problem arises: how am I, as a teacher, with all of us together, going to convey this thing to the student? That we are really concerned with absolute freedom. Freedom – you follow? – that is so essential. How do we translate this to him? They are not interested in it. Right. 1:16:15 They come here, sent by parents or with their own interests. There are two categories: those who come, pushed here, and those who come naturally, who want to come. Now, how do you deal with those students who want to come out of their own accord, with this problem with this question – that when he leaves here he must have captured this have learnt it, or is learning about it? And with those who come here reluctantly, pushed by their parents, how do we deal with them? They are in revolt, they are angry, upset, rooted out from their old habits put into a place… What happens? |
| 1:17:36 DS: Not many students come like that. |
| 1:17:40 K: All right, therefore the majority want to come willingly. |
| 1:17:46 DS: Those that you’ve just described come because their parents think... |
| 1:17:49 K: Yes, majority of them come, willingly. Now, how can we as a group, convey this to them, let the seed take root and deal with it, not only at the very centre but also in the frills – have your hair cut, be clean, punctual, all the rest of that? To do both – you follow what I mean? The seed that will operate right through his life, that will flower. And also, talk about order, discipline, the frills of life. Right? How shall we do this? Knowing that no school has ever done this, no group of people have ever done this, and it’s one of the most tremendous things in life. Please, I’m the new teacher, let’s learn, tell me what to do. Tell me how you would do this. Not ‘how’ – how you approach this, in what way you learn about it. |
| 1:19:52 Q: Wouldn’t we begin by together looking at this question of habit? |
| 1:19:58 K: Yes. Habit is only one of the things, sir. |
| 1:20:00 DS: You’re watching them, your relationships all the time. |
| 1:20:03 K: We are going much further than that. We said authority. Authority means… No authority means not to influence a boy. Which doesn’t mean he can do what he likes, the opposite. So that he himself sees the right thing and does the right thing. Right thing, the accurate thing, the correct thing. How do we learn about this? |
| 1:20:48 Jane Hoare: You influence me. Sometimes, I see it. Sometimes I don’t see it at all, but I’m perfectly certain it’s there. |
| 1:21:00 K: No, you see, because I’m… One influences another because one feels very strongly about something. Like this politician I was hearing the other day – a TUC man talking passionately about wages. All the people listening to him, also concerned with wages, are tremendously influenced by this chap. But we are not here to influence each other, I don’t want to influence – that to me is a drug. I’m not pedalling drugs – sorry. It’s for you to see it for yourself, and therefore it’s finished. I don’t have to tell you. 1:22:05 And can we together see this? Together – not I see it and you don’t see it, therefore, then when you see it, you influence me and you tell me... and we go through all that rigmarole. Together, to see this. If we see it, or when we see it, or learning to see it – which is better – in the very act of learning to see it, how do we convey this to the student? I think we convey it when we are passionate about something. The other day somebody said, ‘I’m tremendously influenced by what you said.’ I said, ‘Oh, my God!’ He said, ‘What do you mean, "Oh my God"?’ 1:24:11 Sir, do we together accept, see the reality, the reality, the truth of no authority? Together. Not only superficially but in depth. Not to influence, not to put any pressure, but realising that there must be, order and all the rest of it. Do we together see this, the importance of it? As a new teacher, I say, ‘By Jove, it’s a tremendous thing,’ and I would like to learn at the greatest depth what are the implications, and I am passionate to convey this to my students. What do you say? |
| 1:26:13 TC: It seems that we’re in a position of not saying, ‘Yes, to some extent I’m doing this, or should do that,’ but in the position of looking at the action that is together a movement of this kind. |
| 1:26:36 K: No, Ted, I’m asking you, do you and I – two people, you and I for the moment – see the importance and the depth of no authority? Therefore, this involves a great deal. You know a great deal about machinery, I don’t. But you, knowing so much, naturally begin to assume an authority. I give you the authority, or you assume the authority. But if you and I are learning – learning, not about something but the fact that I must learn. A school means leisure in which you learn, and am I learning, or are you learning, about authority, putting it or tearing it all to pieces and seeing the facts of it? I’m going to India, next month, at the end of the next month, and it’s now tremendous authority, dictatorial. 1:28:41 I have to talk. I said I would go there only on the condition I can say what I want to say. And I’m going to talk about authority, naturally – which I’ve done for the last fifty years. And people don’t want to learn. They listen and say, ‘How marvellous, what a lovely idea,’ ‘Oh, how interesting,’ ‘Oh, how right it is,’ and just go on being slaves for the rest of their lives. I have to approach it differently – say, ‘Don’t be slaves to tradition.’ And dictatorship is one of the oldest traditions in the world. Right? |
| 1:30:01 SS: Democracy is also a tradition. |
| 1:30:04 K: Of course it is. |
| 1:30:06 SS: We fall foul of that sometimes. |
| 1:30:08 K: But I prefer democracy to the other. So, if we are all together learning, it’s a marvellous thing, we have created a different thing altogether, all of us, a different place where all of us are learning. And a boy comes into the middle of this and says, ‘My God!’ What a tremendous thing he will find. They really mean what they say, that they are really learning. So we have immediately established a totally different relationship with him. The other day after the talk, one of the women came up to me and said, ‘We’re learning, you’re my brother, can I walk with you, can I come and see your room?’ 1:31:43 They reduce it to that absurdity. I think that is the root of this, – don’t you? – that we are here to learn from each other, from the books, from students, and from everything. Is it Goya or Velasquez who, at the age of 92, said, ‘I’m still learning’? Do we stop? Do we go on with this kind of staff meeting? |
| 1:33:39 DS: And you will let us know when. |
| 1:33:41 K: I can do it next Thursday, because I can’t do it on Monday or Wednesday. |
| 1:33:48 MZ: You have a very difficult dentist appointment Wednesday. |
| 1:33:52 K: Yes, I know, but I’ll be all right – that’s nothing. |
| 1:34:00 DS: Let’s be here but let’s learn to... |
| 1:34:03 K: We’ll find out. If I can talk on Thursday, we’ll do it – but do we go on with this? |
| 1:34:08 Q: Yes. |
| 1:34:10 K: Is it worth going? Please, you won’t flatter me to say, ‘Go to hell,’ but is it worthwhile doing this? |
| 1:34:26 TC: Before we stop, let’s make it clear, what is it we’re doing. |
| 1:34:31 K: What we’re doing, is this – as far as I am concerned. I come here as a new teacher and I want to learn from you what you have done. Learn. I want to learn. My whole life has been spent on learning, and I want to learn. Here are a group of people from whom I can learn a great deal, because they have talked about no authority, they have talked about freedom, they have talked about order – you know, all that – they have gone into this thing. And I want to learn from them and together create a flame of learning. |
| 1:35:24 TC: That’s how we started, but it seems we’ve moved from there. |
| 1:35:30 K: Move, let’s move. |
| 1:35:33 TC: We have moved from there. I mean, you used that starting, as a way to focus our attention on our own attitude towards authority. |
| 1:35:45 K: Yes. |
| 1:35:47 TC: You are not a new teacher. |
| 1:35:48 K: Learn about it, so that I have no shadow of authority inside me, so that my mind is free of influence, of wanting to influence, all that. So that my mind is really free. I want to learn. I come here for that purpose. I could go to any school. I come here for that, for only that reason, because I’ve heard that there are a group of people here who are concerned with this and are trying to learn about it, and not be dogmatic, all the rest. So I say, ‘I’d like to join them.’ And if you’re not that, I’m going to insist on that. And find out together how to convey this thing to the students. If you can teach me how to convey this to the students, I say, ‘All right, I’ve learnt it, I’ll go to Rishi Valley and teach it, help them to learn.’ 1:37:38 Because we’ve got many schools and it will be a waste if this isn’t rooted in there. So, you understand? Right? I’ve made my position clear. Right, sir? Now, is it worth doing here? I’m just asking, shall we go on with this? If you say it is worth it, then I will come next Thursday, because I can’t before that, because the day after tomorrow I’m going to the dentist. Until Thursday, I’m booked. Don’t take a vote as they do in the TUC. |
| 1:38:37 Right. Is that enough? |
