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BR76DT4 - Intelligence is to see something very clearly and act instantly
Brockwood Park, UK - 18 September 1976
Discussion with Teachers 4



0:30 K: I don’t quite remember what we were talking discussing over together, last time we met. Do you remember? Questioner: It was talking about a suggestion of talking with the students when they first come.
0:47 K: Oh, yes.

Q: That’s where we left off. Mary Zimbalist: And prejudice.

K: Prejudice – oh, yes. Dorothy Simmons: And learning about it in relationship.
1:04 K: I think what we were also talking about – which I think is more important, I don’t know if you think so, too – was the awakening of intelligence and order.
1:18 Those are the two fundamental things. I think we ought to talk a great deal more about this.
1:34 What shall we do, together as a group of teachers, in a small community like this, how shall we set about to awaken this intelligence, not only in the student but in ourselves?
2:00 In what manner or process or movement shall we bring this about?
2:14 I think this word ‘intelligence,’ apart from the dictionary meaning, is to see something very clearly and act instantly, according to that perception.
2:35 I would call that intelligence. To see that – say, for example – that one is greedy or self-centred or neurotic, or whatever it is, perceiving it, very clearly, and ending it immediately, in the twinkling of an eye.
3:05 I would call that intelligence. Seeing a danger and acting according to that danger.
3:16 What do you say about that explanation of that word?
3:44 MZ: Can we go into that perception, what is in that perception?
3:52 The perception you speak of, which is intelligence, would that include any kind of filtering through...?
4:01 K: After all, when you perceive something dangerous – all right, let’s begin again.
4:13 Say, one of the dangerous things living in this world, is nationalism – I’m taking that as the crudest form.
4:25 Seeing that and instantly be free of that spirit of tribalism – wouldn’t you call that intelligence?
4:44 Or seeing violence, which we talked about the other day, in its entirety – not only physical violence, but all the psychological symptoms of violence.
5:04 See the whole danger of it and end it, immediately.
5:12 Or attachment – depending on another for one’s comfort – depending, with all the implications involved in it – and seeing very clearly and dropping it, so that you’re never attached.
5:34 Which doesn’t mean that you become callous. All that, I would call intelligence.
5:51 Please, this is a dialogue. What would you say? Would you consider that intelligence? If we agree – I don’t know if you agree, if you see that to be intelligence – then in what process or what is the way to convey this to the student and make him do it, instantly?
6:26 Come on, we must...
6:34 A prejudice, pre-judgement, prejudice that one has about something: ‘I like the British, I don’t like the French,’ or ‘I like Buddhism and I don’t like’ – you know – and so on and so on – prejudice.
6:55 To be aware of it, to see it very clearly in oneself, and end it.
7:02 Not take days and months and years worrying about it.
7:10 Is that possible? And if it is, how to convey this to the student and see that it operates.
7:29 What’s happened this morning?
7:40 MZ: Does that imply to the student that all likes and dislikes are a mistake, for want of a better word?
7:50 If I say, ‘I like living in the country, I don’t like living in the city,’ is that prejudice and must I therefore abandon all personal reactions?
8:01 I’m asking from the point of view of the student.
8:06 K: Is this intelligence? Let’s discuss. Is this intelligence? Perception and action. Perceiving is acting. Not perception, a long interval, and acting.
8:27 Saral Bohm: If there’s a long interval, could we ask whether there’s any perception, because...
8:33 K: We talked a little bit about it, the other day. I don’t want to keep on repeating, repeating. We said perception doesn’t take place if there is the observer and the observed, if there is prejudice.
8:49 If the past controls the attitude or the activity in the present – all that is implied.
9:02 The freedom from all that is to observe without prejudice.
9:09 We reduced it to that one word. And that very observation is action, is the ending of something.
9:20 Jealousy – if one is jealous – to end jealousy completely, seeing it and ending it.
9:31 Would you call that intelligence? Oh, come on.

Q: Yes.
9:41 K: Do you do that?
9:51 MZ: Yes, in that instance.

K: No, no, end it forever – not in that instant – so that you are never again jealous – never.
10:08 DS: A continual attention and intelligence. Is intelligence something that you acquire? There it is, intelligence. Or is intelligence a thing that comes and goes?
10:24 K: Not comes and goes.
10:26 DS: But one isn’t always intelligent.
10:29 K: No, let’s find out.
10:33 K: Why one isn’t, if that is intelligence, and why is it – what? – occasional, comes and goes.
10:47 DS: And isn’t it a living thing, a moving thing? Jane Hoare: Renewed each second. I don’t end jealousy forever, it continuously arises.

DS: As it presents itself.
11:07 As jealousy, the situation that creates jealousy, presents itself, you deal with it, or you attempt to deal with it.
11:16 But that you’re free of jealousy forevermore, I think is a static statement.
11:25 MZ: The situation of jealousy arising, doesn’t necessarily bring about jealousy, if you’ve seen it.
11:34 Montague Simmons: You may see clearly that you’re jealous of somebody but you don’t necessarily understand jealousy.
11:41 The same with nationalism – you say, ‘Yes, I understand it, I’m completely free of nationalism,’ and then you turn on your TV, you see Brazil playing England, you want England to win and you push England and are very disappointed when England is beaten.
11:57 So you haven’t got yourself free of it.
12:00 K: But does one feel that the burden of jealousy has to go on indefinitely, and finally end in about twenty years?
12:18 Or does one want to end it?
12:24 MZ: Are you speaking so that it doesn’t come up again? K. Again. I’ve made that very clear. I made that very clear – don’t let’s keep repeating this. Carol Smith: Sir, either statement, saying it will only end in time, or saying it will end instantly – isn’t that somewhat of a block?
12:45 Both are coming from your images of what could happen.
12:54 K: I’ve had hay fever for the last fifteen years – I want to end it. C

S: Instantly.
13:05 I’ve tried various things. It’s a physical phenomenon, not a psychosomatic thing. I’ve very carefully gone into it to see whether it is an avoidance, an escape, be the centre of things because you can talk about it, ‘Oh, how terrible!’ – all that – and I see it is not psychosomatic.
13:39 It is not something that I would like to have to attract people to me and talk about me.
13:47 I’ve gone into all that and I see it’s a purely physical phenomenon.
13:54 So I put up with it. Old age, grey hair – I used to have very black hair and now it’s growing white – all right.
14:04 But psychologically, envy, must I carry it on, day after day, day after day?
14:18 Joe Zorskie: Haven’t we suggested more than once that envy, nationalism, prejudice are forms of thought?
14:28 Thought is matter, in that it is carried as a form in the brain, and so, in a sense, it also seems to be a physical phenomenon.
14:41 What is going to change that brain structure? It seems as though the brain itself can’t do it.
14:48 K: Keep to that. How is that brain structure, which is a material process...
14:55 JZ: A distorted structure.
14:57 K: ...how can that be straightened out?
15:00 JZ: And can the distorted brain itself do that?
15:05 K: Or is it so heavily conditioned, so brutally twisted, that it can never straighten itself?
15:17 Are you suggesting that?
15:19 JZ: Well, I’m asking, even if it’s not so heavily twisted, can even a lightly twisted brain, which is in envy...
15:29 K: Can the brain change itself? Can thought change itself? It comes to the same thing. So you’re saying, as hay fever is a physical phenomenon...
15:48 JZ: And takes time.

K: I may put up with it.
15:58 After examining that it’s not self-induced, avoidance of some various psychological factors, to be the centre of something gone through all that, examined it, and you say it’s purely a physical phenomenon.
16:17 So you’re suggesting that the brain itself – no – thought itself being a material process, is like the hay fever, more or less, and therefore it cannot possibly change itself.
16:40 Is that it?
16:44 JZ: When you put it that way, it seems logical.
16:48 K: It’s very logical – that’s why I purposely put it that way. So what shall I do? Suppose we assume that’s a fact – then what? Shakuntala Narayan: Then the question is, is there something else?
17:07 K: An outside agency?
17:09 SN: Not an outside agency but some untouched spot, some spot that hasn’t been touched, that one is not aware of.
17:19 K: So you’re saying, there is a part of the brain which is untouched, unconditioned, which if we can examine that, go into that and awaken that, then it will wipe out all this.
17:33 SN: I’m asking.

K: That comes to that.
17:43 Well, go on. Discuss.
17:52 Is jealousy comparable to a physical phenomenon, like hay fever?
18:04 SN: It certainly is subtler than hay fever.
18:09 K: Much more subtle – there is fear, anxiety, all kinds of things involved in it.
18:16 My question is, does one want to go on with this?
18:26 Brian Jenkins: If one takes, for example, hay fever – when the body is not in a very healthy state, the hay fever is that much stronger.
18:36 When the body is healthy and one is getting plenty of exercise the influence of the hay fever is very slight.
18:43 K: Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. You haven’t had hay fever.
18:49 BJ: I have actually, and that’s my experience. If you could just take that as hypothesis, is it possible that the same thing is happening with thought? That if there’s that untouched spot, if there’s a sense of something other, if that sense is there, then that will wash...
19:20 K: That’s what Shakuntala pointed out. I don’t want to enter the unknown. Here I’ve got a phenomenon: I am jealous. Do I want to carry it on for month after month and years, till I die, and carry on jealousy even after death?
19:43 SN: To me the crux of it seems that I’m always separate from jealousy.
19:49 K: Yes, we went into that – observer is the observed – but at the end of all this discussion and analysis, does one want to carry it on, or does one want to end it as quickly as possible?
20:08 JZ: One wants to end it, but when you look at the motive...
20:13 K: Wait – I want to end it, because the motive is it brings anxiety, fear, antagonism, hatred – all that is involved in it.
20:27 It’s a terrific burden. I want to be free of that burden. If that’s a motive, I’II accept it.
20:43 I don’t want to have it the next day. I want to finish it completely today and never taste it again.
20:57 It’s a waste of time, it’s a useless waste of energy. So that’s my question: does one want to carry it on?
21:12 JZ: Jealousy is only one of the...

K: One is good enough.
21:16 JZ: But they’re all tied to self-image, in a sense. The sense of having a self.

K: All that’s involved in it.
21:24 JZ: Now, it seems that jealousy, nationalism, etc., cannot disappear unless the root of it is...
21:31 K: Yes, sir, I’m just taking a branch of it, for the time being.
21:35 JZ: But can we clip the branch?

K: No, you can’t. Apparently, when we have a dialogue about the root of all this, which is the ‘me,’ thought structure, we shy away from it.
21:56 We don’t seem to be able to get to the very root of it, hold it there, go after it and eliminate it, completely.
22:04 Apparently that’s an extraordinarily difficult process, so I took an obvious thing, like jealousy and say, does one want to carry on with it for the rest of one’s life?
22:22 I’m attached to my wife, my son, a house, an idea – for God’s sake, it’s a bore!
22:38 The basic thing is the demand for freedom from all this.
22:45 CS: Which goes against the whole concept of, ‘That’s human nature.’ K: All the rest of it – ‘Human nature can never be changed.’ ‘It can only be changed through change of environment.
22:58 Environment can only be changed through revolution, through law, through legislation.’ We have played with this, endlessly.
23:11 So, I’m asking you, if you’II kindly tell me, do you and the student, if you do, to be free of jealousy completely, totally and forever?
23:26 And I mean forever, not occasionally be free from it. If that is intelligence – perception and action – and if you – you may not understand the whole meaning of it – in discussing with the student you see the importance.
23:47 How will you discuss this problem with the student? Intelligence. Awakening of intelligence is action. Action and intelligence are not separate. Now, what do we do? Come on, sir.
24:14 What do we do as a group of teachers when we are faced with this problem?
24:21 When you see a student jealous and beginning to hate another – gradually, the whole business – how do you stop it or explain it, go into it and find it out, say, ‘Please, end it, don’t ever be jealous again’?
25:20 What’s happened this morning?
25:37 JZ: I think I would expose what he’s jealous of, so it could be seen in a clear light.
25:46 K: Sir, my question is, I’ve got a responsibility with the student – I’m off the pedestal and I feel responsible – and one of my responsibilities is to see that he is free of jealousy because that creates parties, all the rest of it.
26:17 And also, as a new teacher, I know what jealousy is. I’ve known it from childhood, as a new teacher.
26:35 In talking with the student, because I’m off the pedestal, I say, ‘I know what jealousy is, because I’m jealous.
26:43 I know all the implications of jealousy, where it leads. As you are also jealous, let’s talk it over together, because I want to be free of it.
26:59 It’s important to be free of it and you also must be free of jealousy. Do you see the importance of it? Or do you enjoy being jealous?
27:15 Do you like it? It is a form of pleasure.’ So I would discuss this matter with him.
27:23 In discussing, I discover myself that I like it, it gives me something to beat the other person with.
27:38 I have discovered in myself that I like to be jealous. Do you?
27:46 So, there is an immediate contact.
27:56 Personally, if I may, I have never been jealous.
28:09 BJ: Is it so, that we like jealousy, which is anxiety, pain?
28:16 K: I’m asking you, sir. Philip Brew: Yes, it’s a neurotic behaviour and one keeps it because one likes it.
28:25 K: No, don’t condemn it – that word ‘neurotic’ has a...
28:32 No, look, you are the student, I am the teacher – suppose.
28:40 I say, ‘I know what jealousy is, I’ve been through it, I know the pain of it, I’m still jealous.
28:48 And you are, too. Now, how shall we dissolve this between us two? It’s important to be free of it.’ Then, it’s like a tremendous burden lifted from your shoulders.
29:06 Now, do you like jealousy? Do you keep it because it occupies your mind and you like to be occupied?
29:29 BJ: But it’s not like that. Jealousy seems to arise. One sees the situation and there’s a surge of emotion. It’s not a sort of thing that keeps on occupying one.
29:40 K: Oh, yes. What do you mean?
29:45 CS: If you take away the jealousy and the fear and all these other things, you’re left with... People are afraid that if they give up all these things their life would be like a void.
29:56 K: Don’t you know what jealousy is?

BJ: Yes.
29:59 K: I won’t look at anybody – don’t you know what jealousy is?
30:03 MZ: Let’s assume we all know.
30:08 K: Do you like to keep it?
30:11 MZ: It’s a nightmare for the person who has it.
30:15 K: Please don’t... we two are trying to find out whether it is possible to resolve it completely and not carry on and say, ‘I was jealous and I’m free of it, but I’m jealous now’ – it becomes too childish.
30:38 JZ: If the sensation of it when it occurs is not felt at the moment then it goes on, but if I feel it at the moment it happens, then it can’t go on. It goes away at that moment.
30:56 K: But it’II come back later.
30:58 JZ: It comes back, yes.

K: I don’t want it to come back!
31:06 SB: Are you saying that it’s always really there, ticking over, but we’re not aware of it, and sometimes we call it jealousy but at other times, it’s just...
31:17 K: I want to be free of it, never to occur again.
31:27 It seems to me that’s the most unintelligent way of living.
31:36 CS: Can we really separate jealousy from being free of...
31:40 K: I’ve been through all that. I took that one example.
31:47 CS: Can we talk about self-pity?

K: Talk about self-pity – it’s all one. I’m just taking one facet of the whole self.
32:06 Scott Forbes: How does the total seeing of it take place? Because that seems to be at the crux.
32:13 K: Sir, to see anything totally there must be no direction, no prejudice, no motive – we’ve been through all that.
32:26 I want to stick to one thing, you go round...
32:31 PB: It seems to give one a kind of a strength. If one is jealous, there’s something which one can hold onto about oneself.
32:42 K: Identify oneself with its identity – I can find a dozen explanations for it – but apart from explanations, do we as a group, intent, passionately concerned to be free of it?
33:12 If I am not then I’m going to help the student to continue with his jealousy.
33:22 Say, ‘Old Boy, be free of it today. When it comes next time, come and tell me about it and we’II talk about it.’ This game has been played over and over again, in confessions, among the Catholics – all the rest of it, I don’t have to tell you.
33:47 JZ: Can it exist if one passionately wants to be rid of it?
33:58 K: Sir, you know what jealousy is. Don’t you want to be free of it, completely?
34:13 I give up!
34:15 PB: Yes, I do.
34:18 K: Then why don’t you?
34:22 PB: I think I am.

K: No, don’t think you are – either it’s a fact or it’s not a fact.
34:36 If you are free of it so it never comes back to you again, how will you convey this to the student?
34:45 Not the ‘how,’ the method, but how will you go into this with the student?
34:52 You being free of jealousy completely, never again, you want to convey this to the student.
35:03 What will be your relationship with him and contact, so that he will learn from you, or together you learn to completely end it?
35:14 Come on, sirs, discuss this.
35:23 PB: I have nothing to defend or to protect, which has got a lot to do with jealousy.
35:32 K: Perfection?
35:33 PB: I have nothing to defend or protect in myself, which has a lot to do with the arising of jealousy.
35:55 Baruch Livneh: Supposing that we’re interested in jealousy more than in the things that cause jealousy, how are we going to make the student also interested more in jealousy than in the things that make him jealous?
36:16 Jane Hoare: It seems that when the seeing is from the wider sensation, then there is no room at all.
36:30 But often I am not at that level of seeing.
36:34 K: Therefore, you are going back and forth. So you like to play this game for the rest of your life.
36:43 JH: No, I don’t.
36:46 K: You may not like it, but you do it. So how will you put an end to it?
36:55 JH: By loving the sensation more.
36:58 K: You like it.
37:00 JH: Obviously, I love the jealousy or whatever it is, otherwise, I wouldn’t be linked to it.
37:05 K: Don’t you want to end it, completely? There we are – none of us want to end anything, we just want to carry on for the rest of our life.
37:24 SN: Wouldn’t one have to go to the root of it?
37:27 K: I’II go to the root of it, but first, do you want to be – it’s like saying, ‘Do you want to swim?’ If you don’t, you remain on the bank.
37:39 MZ: Do we want to stop drowning, would be more to the point. Jealousy is a ghastly thing.
37:56 K: If I had a boy for whom I’m responsible, whom I loved, I want him to be free – whatever motive – I want him to be free of jealousy forever, because it is a tremendous...
38:13 burden to carry all through life, making your life hideous. So what shall I do?
38:25 I love that boy or girl – it’s my son – and I feel this would be a marvellous thing if he could never again taste jealousy.
38:45 Right, sir?
38:47 JZ: It would be marvellous. I think what’s stopping us, is this like/dislike treatment of jealousy.
39:01 K: It’s not a question of like and dislike.
39:03 JZ: I think it’s not a question of that.
39:05 K: I want to be free of this reaction.
39:10 JZ: As we hinted at when we first started here, it’s a lack of intelligence. In other words, ignorance.
39:19 My ignorance keeps me repeating this thing: I must go on, it must go on, one day it must be free and the next day I’m not...
39:29 I’m always not at that height, but I’m always – words, words. All that indicates the lack of intelligence. Now, how are you going to awaken that in the student? Not our stupidity but that intelligence.
39:51 Leave jealousy out. I see it’s very important for the student to be highly intelligent, in the sense we are using that word.
40:07 Now, proceed from there. If we all agree intelligence is perception and instant action.
40:17 Perception is action – like seeing the danger of a precipice.
40:24 And because you see danger there is instant action. You don’t throw yourself under a bus. To throw yourself under a bus is folly, is neurotic, unintelligent.
40:46 So, I’d like to point out to the student the dangers – whatever – all the rest of it.
40:59 Which means he must observe, become intelligent, and so intelligence will show him what is dangerous and act.
41:13 Now, proceed. How shall we do it, if you and I are passionately interested?
41:21 JZ: We’ve tried talking to students...
41:26 K: It has no effect.
41:28 JZ: Practically none.

K: Why? You might say the same thing to me – ‘You have talked for blasted fifty years and more, why the hell are you talking – there is nobody.’ You are saying that – of course, in a polite form.
41:51 So, what shall we do? Shut up shop?
42:03 That’s been one of my concerns. If I die the day after tomorrow or a few years later – what?
42:17 CS: But what is it then that brings this group here, that brings thousands of people to the talks?
42:24 K: Don’t bother about the talks. Don’t go off.
42:28 MZ: They also bring enormous resistance. Most people have a resistance. They hear it but the resistance is so great they only hear it intellectually.
42:38 How does one get through resistance? And what is the resistance based on?
42:45 K: Doesn’t matter about the gathering whether I’ve done it for 50 years – my concern, being in a school, being an educator, is this: to awaken that intelligence in my student so that they will be free to – all the rest of it.
43:07 JZ: When people are logging wood in the mountains and they float the logs down, very often they jam up.
43:15 There’s a tremendous jam, but at the core of it, only one or two logs. They become very clever at finding which one it is, and then the whole thing becomes free.
43:27 K: I’ve seen it in a film.
43:33 JZ: I’m just suggesting that maybe the human mind is similar.
43:38 K: There are one or two blocks.
43:41 JZ: And for each person, perhaps...

K: That’s what the analysts say, there are one or two blocks, which if we can take, analyse...
43:53 JZ: The difficulty is that it requires some other person to look very intricately at these jams.

K: Let’s do it, now.
44:05 I come to you, I say, ‘I have got two or three blocks and then the whole thing will flow easily.
44:12 Please, let’s go into it now. My block is I am damn jealous. Of everything.’ JZ: That may not be your block.

K: I know that’s my block.
44:27 JZ: You may only think it’s your block.
44:30 K: I know it’s my block.
44:34 JZ: Maybe that’s your block, though, knowing with such certainty that that is the case – but it may not be the case.

K: Go into it with me That’s what you’re doing with the student.
44:54 Go into the problem of my block, blocks, many blocks or two, that will let the river flow, carry everything away.
45:04 Help me to get rid of those two blocks.
45:07 JZ: Some students say the problem is that we’re authorities, that we create rules. He knows that’s the problem.
45:15 K: That you are the authority?
45:17 JZ: That we’re not letting him be free.
45:21 K: So you talk it over with him, go into it very carefully and point it out, perhaps he will be intelligent enough to see it.
45:33 JZ: He says, ‘See, they just want me to do what they want’ – that’s all that conversation means.
45:42 K: Mr Joe, I keep on repeating this, you beat me off the track.
45:50 I’m going to stick to it. My block is – in the student and in myself – is this tremendous weight – jealousy, anxiety, fear.
46:06 Help me to get rid of it.
46:14 PB: One of the first things to reach some clarity about before discussion can even begin, is listening and seeing, and what that means, to listen.
46:30 K: The students come here, have heard it’s a freedom school and they can do what they like, and you say, ‘Please, carefully listen.
46:39 We want order. We want freedom. We want order. We want intelligence.’ Now, convey to me who is the student, who come here with all this feeling of freedom, no authority, and show me, deeply, that you’re really free of authority and you want me to be free of this whole structure of authority and at the same time bring about order – show it to me.
47:20 Help me to understand this. It’s your job, you’re going to face it next week.
47:29 PB: The medium we use to go into this, is largely words.
47:37 K: Do it now, sir. Do it now.
47:41 PB: We must begin with what it means to listen.
47:44 K: Do it with me!
47:47 PB: Are you listening?
47:49 K: Go ahead, show me.
47:53 PB: Because so many people listen through a filter of their own prejudices and images and certainties, and so they’re not really listening at all.
48:05 K: What are you telling me, sir? Be simple. I’ve just come for the first time here, as a student. I’m frightened, nervous, and I want freedom, my parents have asked me to come or I want to come here – and tell me about ‘no authority.’ Show me. Help me.
48:25 Help me to learn about it.
48:36 If you explain to me and somebody says the contrary, you may have brought about much more confusion in me.
48:45 You say, ‘That’s not what he means, I think this is freedom.’ ‘These people don’t know what they are talking about – buzz!
48:54 I’m going to do what I like, quietly.’ PB: But can’t you discuss with me this question, which to me is a very serious one, of the ability, the art of listening?
49:07 Because if one is listening then there won’t be contradictions.
49:15 K: You’re missing my point. I am the student, you’re all the teachers here.
49:22 Help me to learn what is implied in no authority.
49:29 MZ: But you as the student, are resisting Philip’s effort to start that dialogue, by repeating the question and not being responsive to what he asks.
49:41 K: You mean I’m not listening? So, teach me to listen. For God’s sake, you don’t... Teach me to listen! Sorry – I’m not angry or impatient.
49:56 DS: They come disposed to listen.
50:04 They are all ears to listen. There’s no problem there.
50:09 K: Please teach me how to listen. Please teach me what I’m listening to and pay attention – teach me, I want to learn.
50:21 MZ: If we say we are interested in intelligence and order...
50:25 K: Teach me to listen!

MZ: I’m doing it. I’m trying to.
50:32 One must begin by being able to at least exchange sounds.
50:43 As we have said we are interested, can we discuss it, listening really to what each other is saying? P

B: Can we communicate?
50:55 MZ: Then once one gets into that, have you an idea of what freedom is? Have we an idea?
51:03 K: Do you know what it means to listen?
51:05 MZ: Yes.

K: Then teach me.
51:09 MZ: We’re doing it.

K: You’re not. You’re not.
51:13 MZ: Well, you are not listening.

K: Therefore, make me listen.
51:20 MZ: Do you see that you’re not listening?
51:26 K: You’re waving your arms, you’re talking about... I want you to tell me what it means to listen.
51:33 MZ: What is it that’s preventing you listening?
51:37 K: Because I don’t want to pay attention to you.
51:42 MZ: Why not?
51:43 K: Because probably, you’re prejudiced. In yourself, I feel that you want to dominate me, by your ideas of what listening is. Answer my question.
51:57 MZ: What is your question?

K: I don’t listen because I think what you say about listening is your personal prejudice.
52:05 I think I am listening, but you’re telling me it may be your personal prejudice. Beat that.
52:16 MZ: Do you feel in some way afraid of listening?
52:20 K: Yes.

MZ: Why do you feel afraid?
52:23 K: Because you may be disturbing my preconceived ideas, my whole everything – I’m frightened.
52:39 MZ: Do you want to defend certain ideas that you have?
52:45 K: No, I’m frightened. I’m too young for certain ideas.
52:51 MZ: You’ve already said that, but I’ve asked why, and you said...
52:55 K: I don’t know why I’m frightened.

MZ: Well, let’s go into that.
53:00 K: That’s what I want you to teach me.
53:05 MZ: What is it that seems to be frightening in this situation?
53:12 K: Treat me as though I was really a student, don’t browbeat me.
53:23 DS: This is to sit round and sort of browbeat them. How you can convey what it is to listen, by yelling at somebody or hammering at somebody, not sensitively feel...
53:37 K: I’ve come to the point, by listening to all of you, that I’ve realised I’m frightened.
53:48 Frightened because I’m new here, frightened that you may disturb my ideas – frightened.
54:01 I’m not fully conscious of it, but I say, ‘I’m frightened of these people.’ DS: We all are. So what?
54:09 K: Are you all frightened?

DS: In a way, yes.
54:12 K: So, what are you telling me? Listen to fear. Learn from us.
54:21 Or do you say, ‘Look, I am also frightened, as you are frightened, in a different way perhaps, so it’s a mutual thing.
54:33 Now, let’s talk about it.’ DS: I’m getting such a fear of meeting these goddamned students when they come.
54:42 K: I know this. I go through nervousness – it’s not fear – nervousness every time I enter a hall to talk.
54:53 I know what it means. Not fear, nervousness. So, please, what shall we do? I keep on repeating this, you’re not meeting my point.
55:06 JH: Is it possible to have words and space, or listening at the same moment?
55:12 K: Of course I must use words, otherwise we might sit here for the rest of our lives, silently.
55:20 JH: But the complications seem to come with words. With a baby or no words, there’s no complication.
55:29 DS: You communicate very strongly without words at all. You communicate without using words, at all.
55:39 K: I know, I know.

DS: And it’s a very powerful thing.
55:44 K: Where are we at the end of this?
55:47 BJ: We said we are both nervous. The student and the teacher feel they are nervous and we need to look at this.
55:53 K: So, the first thing is, help me to get over it. You talk to me easily, quietly, make me feel at home and say, ‘Look, we’re all in the same boat,’ Ingrid Porter: But if you’ve admitted that to each other, and if you’re serious about it, isn’t that the end of your fear?
56:14 K: No, that’s the beginning of understanding each other. You’ve put me at ease here, after a week or day, make me feel comfortable.
56:24 IP: Have you put me at ease?

K: No, I haven’t.
56:27 IP: I’m as much afraid of you as you are of me.
56:29 K: Yes, but I am still very young, you’re grown-up. I’m not so frightened as you are.
56:35 MZ: What’s so reassuring about learning that the staff is all frightened of the students?
56:41 K: I give up. I want to stick to one thing, you have led me away.
56:47 MZ: But it’s been suggested that if we tell the student that we too are fearful and nervous, they will feel better.
56:54 I, as a student would think, ‘My God, what have I fallen into?’ BJ: Would you? Or would you feel that there’s somebody who has some understanding of what it is to be nervous?
57:11 MZ: I’d think, well, if they’re nervous, what am I doing here?
57:15 Q: But then it’s not an authority? Isn’t that an authority to go into a problem not admitting you are the problem, itself?
57:30 The way to approach it is to admit the problem is in all of us and let’s go into it together, rather than not showing your fear because then the child won’t feel comfortable.
57:40 MZ: You’re assuming that I’ve got a fear, in the situation with the child. We’re all saying, like a party line, ‘We’re all afraid of the students.’ Q: Not afraid of the students, but there’s fear involved in the relationship with the student, and his relationship with me.
57:57 If I’m free from fear, then everything is very clear.
58:02 PB: There’s a nervousness in a new situation, but I don’t equate that with fear.
58:10 Q: I don’t know what nervousness means, actually. It seems to me, that if I don’t go into it with the child...
58:24 If I go into the relationship with the child being an authority and pretending I don’t have the same feeling as he, there’s no relationship, I find.
58:34 So the first thing is to see, whatever it is, and go into the problem together, knowing I have the same problem, and I’m learning and the child is learning.
58:44 MZ: Are you saying that if one really has the problem then you put it on the table? But I think it’s almost an assumption to say we must prove to the student that we are no different, no better, know anything more than the student.
59:01 We may be fearful, we may have all kinds of troubles which may develop, but I think it’s this blanket assertion that we’re just like you...
59:14 K: Which is not true. Of course not.
59:21 MZ: To the degree it’s true, fine, but if it isn’t, I wouldn’t accept it.
59:28 K: No, we started out these dialogues by saying I’m a new teacher here and you have told me to come off my pedestal.
59:42 The pedestal being, I’m the teacher and you’re the taught. I’ve said, ‘I’ve understood that, I’m out of that.’ If it arises, I know what to do with it.
59:55 It will never arise with me because I’m out of it. I see the reason – because it spoils relationship with my students – so, out.
1:00:07 Then you said motive, self-interest – I’m working at that.
1:00:15 And now you have accepted me as a teacher here and I’m going to meet sixty students next week.
1:00:25 And I say, ‘Look, I am off the pedestal.’ I feel now that together I can discuss with them – right? – there is no barrier of a pedestal.
1:00:41 Is that clear? That’s what we agreed to. You told me, and I see the reason of it.
1:00:48 DS: Most people who come here, do feel that. That’s why they came here.

K: Yes. So, I’ve established a different relationship with my students. Now, in that relationship I discover that I’m jealous of you because you have greater influence on those children.
1:01:10 They prefer you, and they don’t like me so much. So I feel jealous, naturally. And I notice also those children are jealous of each other. So I say, ‘Now, how shall I deal with this particular problem?’ Not ten different problems – this particular problem.
1:01:36 In myself, I’m a little jealous of you all and I see the students are also jealous.
1:01:46 We want to see if we can dissipate this burden, this weight.
1:01:54 This is obvious. No? What’s the difficulty? What? What is the difficulty?
1:02:10 BJ: The only difficulty is the approach.
1:02:13 K: That’s what I want to know. I find I am jealous of you all, and I see also this green-eyed monster in the student.
1:02:27 I want to talk it over with them. Right? Now, I don’t know quite how to do it.
1:02:40 I’m not sure of my approach. I come to you all at a staff meeting and say, ‘Please, help me how to deal with this. I know I’m jealous, – help me.’ Don’t sit silent and say, ‘Watch me’ – help me.
1:03:01 Q: I don’t know if knowing how to approach it is going to help. If you go in with fixed ideas...
1:03:09 K: I told you, I am rather nervous, I don’t know, you have been here longer, you may know more about it. So please, help me to learn from you all.
1:03:23 DS: And give you an authority – you have to find out for yourself.
1:03:27 K: No, I’m off the pedestal.
1:03:29 DS: Yes, but if I come and show you how...
1:03:32 K: No, don’t show me. Oh, you people. I want to learn from you because you know more about it. You have lived here longer. There is no authority.
1:03:42 DS: I don’t think it’s a question of knowing more about it. You either know about it or you don’t.
1:03:46 K: I said you may know more about it.
1:03:54 You must have talked this matter over, together. This is the first time I talk about it, in my life. And I say, ‘Please, you may know much more about it. You’ve listened to that unfortunate man who has talked for fifty years, and perhaps he might have said to you something.
1:04:13 Teach me, I want to learn.’ What? Teach me, Shakuntala, don’t avoid it.
1:04:29 Q: Can we take a concrete...
1:04:30 K: I’m taking the most concrete thing – jealousy.
1:04:32 Q: ...like physical order.

K: No, please – jealousy.
1:04:39 SF: I’ve found if I’m trying to talk about jealousy to someone else, I communicate a lot better if I am examining my own jealousy.
1:04:51 K: I am doing that, sir, I explained it to you.
1:04:54 SF: So I have to be examining my own jealousy while I am trying to talk about it.

K: Do it now.
1:05:10 Q: You want me to teach you about how to deal with this thing?
1:05:14 K: How to deal with my own jealousy. And how am I, by finding more about myself, help the students who are also jealous?
1:05:29 Q: All that I can teach you is to go with that openness and inquire.
1:05:36 To the students.

K: Here I am. I’m quite open to learn from you.
1:05:43 Q: Why can’t you learn together with your students?
1:05:48 K: Are you telling me, ‘Be quite open about your jealousy, with the student’?
1:06:01 I daren’t. I’II show you why. I don’t know what I’m going to discover in myself. Wait, sir, listen carefully. I’m frightened already. I’m frightened that I may discover a lot of things. So I don’t want to expose myself too much to the students.
1:06:29 Q: So you feel separate from the students?
1:06:32 K: Not different, exposed. It’s like exposing all my hideous things to somebody – I’m frightened of that, I’m ashamed of it.
1:06:47 BJ: Is it sensible to show one’s dirty linen in public?
1:06:54 K: Oh Lordy! To wash one’s dirty linen in public. I don’t mind.
1:07:01 BJ: All the details of one’s jealousy?
1:07:04 K: Are you ashamed to expose yourself?
1:07:08 BJ: No, not at all.
1:07:10 SB: How can I teach, if I’m afraid, if I’m afraid to expose?
1:07:13 K: Are you ashamed to expose yourself to the student, in your inwardness, your mess, your confusion, your jealousies, anxieties, and say, ‘I live up there, sometimes it doesn’t happen, sometimes...’ and all that exposed – are you willing?
1:07:31 IP: Not ashamed, but I think it would harm the student. I wouldn’t be ashamed of it, but it wouldn’t do the student any good.
1:07:39 K: Therefore, I have learned one thing from you: by exposing my own inward confusion, jealousy, I’m not helping the student. Therefore, it is not a pretension.
1:07:54 Wait, sir, listen carefully – it is not a pretension. I see he won’t fully understand all my complex difficulties.
1:08:05 So I say, ‘I know. I know my difficulties. I have learnt this. My exposing myself, showing him all my difficulties might bring about greater confusion in him.’ Or he might feel, ‘By Jove, I’m much superior to him, because he hasn’t investigated, he hasn’t gone into it all.’ He says, ‘By Jove, he’s an ass!’ Stephen Smith: He might be able to show me something about myself.
1:08:42 Q: I don’t think it’s been suggested that one should go and expose oneself to the student.
1:08:53 But, there is a rightness, an intelligence in the action...
1:08:58 K: You are saying, ‘My dear chap, there is order in investigation.’ I have learnt something from you.
1:09:17 In investigating with the student about jealousy, of which I know myself and he knows it, there must be a certain order, the order of not showing all your...
1:09:33 That’s what I’m... – I’ve learnt it.
1:09:36 Q: That’s not a helpful thing.

K: I’ve learnt something, that in talking to the student there must be a certain watchful care not to burden him with my problems.
1:09:58 Q: Yes, definitely.

K: That’s all. That’s order. I’ve learnt that. You have taught me that. Now, have you learnt that? Have you learnt that?
1:10:17 I have learnt that. I say, ‘Yes, perfectly right. I see, in talking with my students, I mustn’t burden them with my problems.’ And I’m inclined to do it, because they are innocent, somewhat, and I want to pour it out to them – it helps me to clear myself.
1:10:39 Therefore I see it’s important not to put everything in front of them.
1:10:48 Will you do that? Have you learnt that?
1:10:56 Really learnt it? So that, in yourself you are beginning to have order.
1:11:04 Right, sir?
1:11:11 So, then I say, ‘My friend, I know what jealousy is, I’II show it to you.
1:11:18 It leads to hate, it leads to anxiety – all that. I’II show it to you.’ We are learning together to see what happens when you are jealous.
1:11:40 And do you want to keep it? Does it give you pleasure? Are you going to say, ‘I like this, so I’II keep on for the rest of my life’?
1:11:55 Or do you want to be free of it, completely? I want to be free. As one of the teachers, I want to be free, completely. I’m going to find out. I’m going to learn. Not to spend years finding it out, I’m going to find out. And I’d tell the student, ‘Do you want to find out?’ JZ: But Mary took you through that line of questioning, just a few minutes ago.
1:12:25 And rather quickly, you came down to fear. That there was fear preventing you from going further. It’s not clear whether it was fear of exposing yourself or just fear of looking at yourself. It seems that all of these questions, very quickly, no matter where you start, come down to that same point: we are faced with fear.
1:12:49 K: So, fear – let’s start with that.
1:12:52 JZ: And to us, I think, it’s quite a problem. We’re sitting here and the student is there and the student is becoming increasingly more fearful in any real communication.

K: I know. Poor devil.
1:13:06 JZ: The more he listens the more...

K: That’s what I mean. Of course.
1:13:12 JZ: The fear, in some sense, is obviously a defence.
1:13:19 You’re asking him to look at his self-image, he begins getting a glimpse and...

K: ...withdraws.
1:13:28 JZ: It’s a kind of, ‘Please, don’t hurt me.’ K: So, I warn him beforehand – ‘This is what’s going to happen.
1:13:35 So, be careful, don’t withdraw, hold it carefully.’ JH: But it doesn’t carry in the instant of that withdrawal.
1:13:43 No warning before carries in the instant of that withdrawal.
1:13:47 K: If I am warned, I may withdraw but I’m careful of it, I watch it.
1:14:04 CS: You predicted that would happen and then, by Jove, it happens. It’s an awful mechanical thing.

K: So, I say, ‘Watch it. Be watchful.’ So between us we have learnt one thing: be watchful, watching resistance, and, ‘Careful, don’t do it.’ Right? Proceed.
1:14:39 PB: We have done this – at least I’ve done it, sometimes.

K: No.
1:14:47 PB: The fear, if you don’t get through it, if the student or the other person doesn’t go through that fear, they’re left with the memory of it.
1:14:58 Then after that, the relationship between you and that person is changed. They only remember that you are a person who can hurt them, that you can remind them of fear.
1:15:10 K: No, I say, ‘I’m in the same position,’ remember?
1:15:14 PB: Yes, but if in that conversation the fear doesn’t completely go...
1:15:20 K: It can’t, because I’m... he’s not paying... as it hasn’t gone from you completely, how can you expect him to have it, completely?
1:15:31 PB: So then what’s the point of having this deep...
1:15:36 K: How do you free yourself, completely?
1:15:46 PB: This goes back to what I feel we didn’t completely deal with, talking about how we go to the student to discuss this jealousy.
1:15:54 We have said it is not a right action to burden a student with all one’s own problems – that’s clear.
1:16:04 But that can also be used as a conclusion, to say, ‘Right, I won’t talk about myself.’ And I think this is what we do, to an extent.
1:16:18 It must be very clear that while one cannot burden the vulnerable student, with all one’s own problems, still one must be open, in an intelligent manner, to investigate oneself at the same time and not shut that off.
1:16:37 K: But Mr Joe and I came to a point.
1:16:47 That is, fear goes on. By asking him to be watchful the student becomes more afraid. So, I’m asking him, seeing all this pattern of fear, the intricacies of fear, does he want to be free of it, completely?
1:17:15 And you cannot ask the student, till you... if you say, ‘I don’t want to be free’ – you must be free.
1:17:26 Now, we are in that position now – we both of us want to be free of it.
1:17:35 Not for one day – forever, amen. Now, proceed with it.
1:17:53 PB: I don’t quite understand why I engender this fear in this discussion.
1:18:00 Am I a threatening person? Is what I’m saying threatening?
1:18:05 MZ: Isn’t how one conducts these conversations immensely important? If it’s a kind of dissection and challenging the student, even implied as I was doing, badly, with you...
1:18:20 K: What is the important thing?
1:18:21 MZ: One does this in a manner of friendliness. Not that I want to burden you with the terrible story of my own life, but that we are more or less in the same boat, without giving you my sad story the student feels you are friendly, you know what he’s talking about.
1:18:41 K: We have established that.

MZ: Well, have we?
1:18:43 K: That’s for you. I have established it.
1:18:48 MZ: The fear that is quickly arrived at, can be seen in a very different way.
1:18:57 K: I have established what you have said – real friendliness – because I feel that is immensely important, so I have worked at it during the day or week.
1:19:10 And I say, ‘That has to be,’ and I see it. So, I’ve learnt that from you.
1:19:19 JH: Always you say ‘worked at.’ You actually seem to talk about it... We are not free of fear, if you asked us all, and yet we’d all say that we wanted to be.
1:19:32 K: I’m asking you, I’ve established a friendly relationship with my students – I really mean it – have you?
1:19:48 This is a simple question.
1:19:49 PB: Yes, until that’s established, there’s nothing.
1:19:52 K: Let’s proceed. You have. Then, in that friendship relationship comes this problem of jealousy – whatever you like. I take jealousy as an example.
1:20:06 I’m sticking to it because you’re all avoiding it. I’m saying, to convey to the student – both of us being jealous – not exposing all my burden – do we want to be free of this jealousy?
1:20:30 Ultimately, as Mr Joe pointed out, fear. Do I really want to be free of fear – all of us?
1:20:40 Or is it a game we are playing?
1:20:47 That was your question.
1:20:55 Do we pay enough attention to this question – wanting to be free of fear, completely?
1:21:08 Do we? Don’t blink and look somewhere else. I’m asking, Shakuntala.
1:21:20 Please answer me. You’ve been here for a long time, you’ve heard that man umpteen times.
1:21:30 Do you want to be free?
1:21:37 And you would like the student to be free, wouldn’t you? Because you have friendship, you like him. So, how will you convey this demand?
1:21:57 I’m going to pin you down till you answer me. Sorry, she represents you.
1:22:08 Do you want to be free of it? Whatever the motive – forget the motive. Or do you say, ‘No, sorry, hold on, let me think about it’?
1:22:26 DS: I felt great fear when we all started just talking about it at all, but you didn’t pin me down, you very gently led me.
1:22:38 K: I’m doing this. By pinning her down...
1:22:42 DS: But you tend to...
1:22:44 MZ: You just used the word ‘demand’ – can one demand the thing?
1:22:48 K: I’m demanding myself. I said to her, ‘Do you demand?’ DS: I demand it of myself, but you helped me do it.
1:22:56 K: I’m asking her, do you demand? I asked her, do you, Shakuntala, demand yourself to be free?
1:23:13 SN: I think that’s why we are all here.
1:23:17 K: I don’t know about all the others, I’m asking you. Don’t pass the buck.
1:23:33 Do you see how hesitant we are? And with this hesitancy, you’re talking to the children.
1:23:48 So, he says, ‘By Jove, I’m confused.’ Why are you hesitant about it?
1:24:01 SN: Because I know I’m not free of it.
1:24:03 K: No, why are you hesitant? I’ve asked you: do you want to be free of it, deeply, forever? S

N: Yes.
1:24:14 K: Now, if that is so, how shall we proceed? There are two of us or half a dozen of us who say, ‘I must completely be free of this monster.’ Then, what shall we do?
1:24:53 Is it a verbal answer or deep, passionate demand that one must be free of this thing?
1:25:20 If it is deep – there are two things – if it is superficial then it’s merely a verbal exchange, it’s like a little flutter.
1:25:32 But if it is really a serious question then both of us being serious, let’s proceed to find out why we are holding on to this fear. Right?
1:25:51 If you and I really want to be free of it, why is it so difficult?
1:26:12 CS: Because you’re venturing into the unknown.
1:26:21 K: Am I frightened of the unknown, therefore I’m sticking to the known and afraid that you might take away the known?
1:26:31 Listen to it. I am frightened of the unknown, what will happen if I am free of fear, and also I’m frightened to let the known go.
1:26:45 So it is fear, both.
1:26:52 The known and the freedom from the known, ‘My God, if I lose everything, what am I?’ – fear, a tremendous thing. This is an immense question.
1:27:06 And also the unknown. So I realise these two forms of fear: the known and freedom from the known – which also is a fearful thing – and the unknown.
1:27:28 What am I frightened about the known? My name?
1:27:35 CS: The ‘I.’

K: I want to know, I’m burning with it. I want to find out, break through.
1:27:44 I don’t want to sit here and say, ‘Yes, might be, might not be...’ CS: It’s all inherent in the language, it permeates everything.
1:27:54 K: Please, to me this is tremendously important. With fear, I have no love. I may sleep with a woman or say, ‘Oh, darling’ – that’s all a shoddy affair.
1:28:09 As long as I have fear, there is no love. So, I’m frightened of these two: the known, being free from the known, and the unknown. So, first I take the known – what am I afraid of? Losing what?
1:28:27 Losing what? Come on. My name? My form? My qualities? My – what? – attachments?
1:28:36 CS: Well, it may go even deeper. You may be afraid of losing your job, losing your house, losing your wife.
1:28:43 K: My job, my house. If I lose, I’II see what happens. But you see, you’re all... you’re not... you are... All right, proceed slowly. I won’t push you too much. Proceed slowly. So, what are you afraid of? To lose the known. What is the known?
1:29:22 The known is yourself, isn’t it? Do you know yourself?
1:29:31 MZ: It’s a relative security. We know it’s not real security.
1:29:38 K: No, the known is all the things, which is you.
1:29:46 So, I’m asking you, do you know yourself? Or you say, ‘Yes, I’m attached’ but not knowing yourself. I wonder if I’m conveying this.
1:30:00 JZ: Sir, have you gone through this? You said you didn’t know jealousy.

K: Never.
1:30:05 JZ: And fear.
1:30:08 K: Psychologically, never. Physical, yes – one was beaten up – being bullied, yes.
1:30:16 JZ: From what are you speaking, when you are saying that if there was this fear then you would look at this way through it?
1:30:27 It seems as though you’re saying that when you look at other people that you somehow imagine what is happening inside their mind and you imagine that fear.

K: No, I don’t imagine it.
1:30:46 How do you know? You’re asking me.
1:30:50 K: No, no. I’II put the question better – how do you know about jealousy if you have never been jealous?
1:31:00 Right? That’s all. Is that the question?
1:31:04 JZ: And deeper too, about fear and about going through fear.
1:31:11 K: How do you know these things, like fear, jealousy, anxiety, if you have never been through it? Is that it?
1:31:21 Be simple, sir. Yes. J

Z: That’s part of it.
1:31:24 K: How do you know these things if you haven’t been through?
1:31:27 JZ: I can easily accept actually that you’ve never been... that you don’t know those states. I have no reason to believe that you have fear.
1:31:41 K: I don’t want you to believe or accept or reject. I make a mere statement, ‘I’ve never been...’ – it’s not important.
1:31:49 JZ: Exactly, it’s not important. But it is important if you’re suggesting a way for a person to face fear.
1:32:00 K: Yes, that’s all. J

Z: If you are suggesting a way...
1:32:03 K: Not a way – how to proceed with fear.
1:32:09 JZ: This process, if it’s not true, if it’s not correct, fitting, it’s only going to...

K: ...make much more conflict.
1:32:21 JZ: If you’ve been through that, ‘I went through it and it works,’ K: I’II show you it will work.
1:32:28 So, we are both examining logically, not neurotically.
1:32:36 There is no desire to convince you, no desire to put something over you, no desire for superiority – I have none of that.
1:32:50 K: There is no desire or assumption that I’m something different... So, logically we are discussing. Must you get drunk to know drunkenness? Must you murder somebody to know how it feels to murder somebody?
1:33:16 Wait, answer my question. J

Z: Yes, you do.
1:33:20 K: No, that is unintelligence. Because why should I go through all these things?
1:33:35 You can see at a glance.
1:33:36 JZ: You can see the effects of that state.
1:33:41 K: Yes, I don’t want the effects.
1:33:43 JZ: By judging from the effect you can say, ‘I don’t want to have anything to do with it.’ K: Finished. That’s all. J

Z: All right, fine.
1:33:52 BJ: But it’s not only the effects – you see the whole process.
1:33:55 K: I see the whole process, the symptoms of it, the cause.
1:33:58 JZ: The external symptoms but not the internal...
1:34:01 K: Yes, the internal reason is, it’s a habit, education, going to the pub, drinking beer every day.
1:34:14 I don’t have to go through all that – why should I?
1:34:22 Extend that, beer drinking, to murder. Why should I go through any of this? Why should any human being repeat this thing over and over again?
1:34:38 So intelligence says, ‘Don’t do it.’ You don’t have to go through it.
1:34:48 Intelligence says, ‘All these things are dangerous for a healthy life.’ CS: Are you also saying that it is intelligence that tells you that to proceed in a right and true manner, this will get to the root of it?

K: Of course, naturally.
1:35:21 CS: And that intelligence you are saying is shared by all humans.
1:35:25 K: Do you want to murder people, for whatever reason?
1:35:34 JZ: Not people. But, aren’t you asking us to murder ourselves?
1:35:41 K: No, I’m asking, physically. J

Z: But it’s a form of murder.
1:35:46 K: Mr Joe, no, be simple. You hate somebody – do you want to go and kill him? Do you want to become a terrorist for some ideal or for some cause?
1:36:04 JZ: No, I don’t think the thought of murder comes around. You want that person to be gone sometimes.
1:36:12 K: But that’s different, but I’m asking you specifically: murder, terrorist – because your intelligence says, ‘Don’t be silly.’ That’s all.
1:36:24 If your intelligence says, ‘No fear.’ Right?
1:36:42 JZ: So, the intricacies of fear, you don’t care about that. That’s something for a psychiatrist to worry about. Just drop it. You don’t have to go into all of that rat’s nest of fear. You can drop the whole...

K: ...caboodle.
1:37:00 JZ: ...without uncovering it, even to your consciousness.
1:37:04 K: That’s what I’ve been saying. Your intelligence says, ‘Don’t.’ JZ: If you wanted to uncover it, you could, but why bother?
1:37:14 K: But I have done it. Intelligence can say, ‘Don’t,’ and ‘Reason it out.’ JZ: When you say, ‘I have done it,’ have you done it?
1:37:26 K: What?
1:37:29 JZ: Have you dropped anything? Is there any problem, a psychological complexity that you’ve had to drop?

K: No. No.
1:37:39 JZ: You’re lucky!
1:37:45 K: I’m sorry. J

Z: You’ve got the easy end of this.
1:37:58 K: Come on, let’s see.
1:37:59 JH: Do you recognise fear when it appears? I don’t recognise fear when it first appears.
1:38:11 K: No, the first second, you don’t say, ‘It is fear,’ there is that.
1:38:19 Then you begin the whole business. We are talking of the beginning of the whole business. Do you want to be free of it?
1:38:33 JH: But can we talk about the recognition, the very seed?
1:38:37 K: We can, but first, do you want to be free of it?
1:38:45 See how I’m sticking to the same old thing till you answer no, or yes.
1:39:08 One of the complaints against me was – when they gave me that castle and five thousand acres – I took it, and when I went away, I left it.
1:39:20 And who was working with me said, ‘My God, what’s the matter with you? You accept and...’ ‘You don’t care.’ That was his anger, that he cared and I didn’t.
1:39:35 DS: What was that, Krishnaji? I couldn’t hear it.
1:39:39 Q: We couldn’t hear.

K: It’s not important.
1:39:48 So, do we want to be free of it? What is the problem? Do you want to be free of it?
1:40:00 Q: Yes.

K: Good! Then what shall we do? Will you give your energy, your passion, life to find this out? Or just say, ‘Well, sorry, I have other jobs to do’?
1:40:29 If you say, ‘Yes,’ we’II go into it, to the very depth of it. But if you say, ‘I’m sorry, I’d like to go halfway or just to scratch the surface,’ then we are playing games, and you’re playing games with the students then, too.
1:40:52 So, the intelligence says – as you will not murder, you don’t have to but you will not – so intelligence says, ‘Be free of this beastly thing, for God’s sake.’ PB: That implies the intelligence is seeing the order of it.
1:41:21 K: Seeing fear as danger. No, leave it, keep it simple – fear as a tremendous danger.
1:41:33 Because when you are frightened, you are paralysed, and there is retaliation – all kinds of things take place in fear – darkness, a sense of violence.
1:41:55 You see that and the seeing of that is intelligence. And intelligence says, ‘Wipe it out.’ BJ: But can it do it? Why doesn’t it do it?
1:42:09 Why doesn’t intelligence wipe it out?
1:42:12 K: Because you don’t see the danger of it. That’s all my point. If you saw the danger of drinking beer, which will give you cancer, really, you would stop it instantly.
1:42:35 But if you say, ‘I don’t mind, I enjoy beer, I don’t mind dying of cancer in a few years. What of it? I enjoy it,’ then it’s all right. That is stupidity. It obvious.
1:42:50 BJ: It’s different going into a place, picking up a glass and the other, where there’s an occurrence inside you which as soon as one recognises it then maybe something can happen, but how to stop that, the recognition of it...’ K: You don’t stop it.
1:43:08 Intelligence sees the danger of fear.
1:43:17 Then intelligence says, ‘Let’s work it out.’ I’ve seen it. That it’s a tremendous danger.
1:43:30 Do you see it, really?
1:43:33 BJ: Yes.

K: Then let’s work it out.
1:43:42 If you really see it as a danger, it’s finished. But if you think you see it as a danger then we can argue about it.
1:44:01 BJ: But then where’s the working it out?
1:44:04 K: But you don’t see it.
1:44:12 MZ: Is there a working it out if you really see it?
1:44:20 K: No, the seeing of it, completely as a tremendous danger is intelligence. Then it’s finished, it’s over. You don’t have even to talk about it, it’s gone. But we think we are intelligent.
1:44:49 BJ: It’s also a habit to think we’re afraid.
1:44:54 K: A great many things are involved in it. That’s why these dialogues are good because it makes you – not ‘makes’ you – helps you to go into yourself and see where you are, exactly.
1:45:17 Whether you are superficial, halfway serious, whether you are halfway deep or really – concerned profoundly.
1:45:40 That’s why mediocrity is always superficial.
1:45:54 Like these terrorists, they don’t mind killing and they don’t mind being killed, because they say, ‘Palestine,’ or this or that, ‘We must uphold or destroy.’ They are profoundly committed to it.
1:46:18 They really are terrorists in the wrong direction.
1:46:31 I think we’d better stop, don’t you? Quarter past one. No?
1:46:43 Enough, isn’t it?
1:46:46 JZ: Just to slip in one biographical question to end. Does that boy in India or that young man in the Theosophical Society, did they know fear?
1:47:03 That boy in India, did he know fear?
1:47:07 K: No, he was too vague.
1:47:12 JZ: So it’s not a case of there being a transformation to a state which does not know fear.
1:47:19 From a state that knows fear...

K: I doubt it.
1:47:23 JZ: There’s no transformation in this situation?
1:47:27 K: I can’t remember, but I doubt it very much.
1:47:35 Fortunately, nothing entered and nothing went out.
1:47:43 SF: When do we meet again?
1:47:50 K: Today is Saturday. Monday? Can we meet Monday?
1:48:00 MZ: Yes.