Krishnamurti - Investigating fear

Krishnamurti Subtitles

BR76DT5 - Investigating fear
Brockwood Park, UK - 20 September 1976
Discussion with Teachers 5

0:28	K: What shall we start off with?
0:40	I think we were talking last time, about fear, wasn’t it?
0:56	I was wondering why we don’t ask fundamental questions and find an answer for them, not verbally but in oneself, deeply.
1:10	Like jealousy, whether it can be wiped out completely, or attachment or fear.
1:34	And how shall we answer these questions when the students ask us?
1:47	And should we encourage them to ask these questions?
2:04	Can we answer them, truthfully, whether it is possible to end jealousy completely, so that it never returns again?
2:19	That’s what we were discussing, the other day. Or do we say, ‘I’m not free of it, but let’s talk it over together and see if we can end it.
2:37	Is that possible?’ Is it possible to end it? – that’s what I mean.
3:00	Well, sirs, I don’t know. What do you say? Montague Simmons: The first thing to consider is the students. They range in age from 10 to 20. I think we must be careful not to put too big a burden on the younger ones.
3:20	K: Quite right – not put too much of a burden on them. But I’m asking, amongst ourselves, as educators.
3:37	Because what are we trying to do at Brockwood?
3:52	Aren’t we trying to awaken that intelligence, that intelligence which sees something very clearly?
4:05	Perception, action, is intelligence – we said that. Seeing something very clearly and acting instantly, is intelligence.
4:17	And can we have that intelligence amongst ourselves, first, and then convey it to the student?
4:30	Come on, sirs. Doris Pratt: It depends on seeing clearly our conditioning, first.
4:39	That’s where seem blocked.
4:43	K: No, then we get into this question, I don’t see it clearly, how am I...? – endlessly talk about it.
4:54	Now, we’re asking each other, if we see intelligence is action of immediate perception, can we do this?
5:14	Are we doing it, or is it all rather vague, unclear?
5:28	Carol Smith: The way you phrased, ‘Intelligence is the action of immediate perception,’ then one would have to look at the perception, because you’re saying intelligence follows...
5:41	K: We talked about that, what it means to observe. What it means to see very clearly, without prejudice, without any distortion.
5:52	CS: Does it mean that to be perceptive one has to be unconditioned?
5:57	K: When you want to see something clearly, if you want to see a painting, you don’t go up to it and have all kinds of opinions about it.
6:06	You look at it, first.
6:13	What is the difficulty in this?
6:25	We’ve talked a great deal about this, the observer is the observed – I don’t know if you’re interested – and action coming from that observation, which is not a postponement, in which there is no time element at all.
6:58	Seeing that I am lazy or jealous or attached, I’m attached to something, to see very clearly that I am, all the implications involved in that perception, and end it.
7:37	What do you say?
7:45	What is the difficulty in this? Brian Jenkins: I think it’s lack of clarity, because in the daily living one has in the school, one has things to think about, one has to talk to students, that to examine and see very clearly whether one is attached or not attached, sometimes it seems a little vague.
8:17	K: You mean you have too much to do – outside, gardening, teaching, looking after...
8:24	Your mind is so involved in that and so you have no time to observe? Is that it?
8:34	Shakuntala Narayan: I don’t think that is it, at all. Because one can observe in the doing of the gardening or the cooking.
8:43	K: So what is the difficulty in this?
8:53	Scott Forbes: It seems that we colour all of our observations with thought. We don’t just observe or just perceive but we have thoughts that distort or colour it, change it.
9:06	K: You mean to say you can’t observe your jealousy without any distortion?
9:15	Distortion being suppression, the judgement, trying to avoid it, trying to find excuses for it.
9:24	Just to observe it, is that very difficult?
9:29	SF: It seems so.
9:31	K: Why?
9:36	BJ: I think we’re very quick to rationalise the jealousy.
9:40	K: Let’s do it now, sir. We’ve got an hour. Let’s see if we can’t observe jealousy or whatever one is attached to or whatever one has a problem about – to look at it.
9:57	Joe Zorskie: Is there a reason for this or do each of us have an individual reason?
10:05	K: Even individual reasons – if you have individual reason, why you should be jealous – to see that prevents clarity of observation, can’t you put that aside?
10:22	Mary Zimbalist: Aren’t there two possible things that may trip us up? One would be the superficial – ‘Oh yes, I’m jealous,’ and it’s a verbal something that doesn’t change – and the other is to say, ‘Let me look at the jealousy,’ then get so involved in the emotional push and pull of the jealousy, that you just get in deeper, that you don’t see it objectively or see it as a whole, and change doesn’t occur, you just get more miserable in the jealousy, more involved emotionally with it.
10:54	K: No, just let’s do it now, as an experiment. One is jealous. To look at it without any emotional, exaggeration or suppression or rationalisation, all the rest of it, just to observe it. Isn’t it possible?
11:14	SN: The problem is to look at it without thought.
11:16	K: Look at it, do it.
11:18	SN: But it doesn’t seem to… D P: It’s only a word.
11:27	K: Must we go through all this?
11:29	DP: It’s not easy to suddenly waken up a jealous feeling which you’ve had, and make it really real.
11:36	K: Look, Miss Pratt, you know what jealousy is.
11:38	DP: I wouldn’t say I do, sir.
11:41	K: You have been jealous? D P: I’m sure I have.
11:45	K: Then you know the feeling of it? D P: I can’t reconjure it, easily.
11:51	K: Oh, no. All right, attached. Take something.
11:56	BJ: Attachment can cover so many things, so if we take attachment...
12:00	K: All right, let’s take attachment. Can you observe your attachment? Are you aware of your attachment?
12:14	DP: Yes.
12:18	K: Can you observe it without any rationalisation, just to say, ‘Yes, I am attached.’ I’m attached to that person or to that thing or to that belief, or to an ideal, a conclusion – whatever it is you’re attached to.
12:38	Then, can you look at it – the person or thing or idea – why you are attached to it?
12:53	DP: Then attachment is immediately replaced by fear.
12:56	K: No, wait. Go step by step. You jump – I don’t want to jump. Go step by step.
13:09	One is attached to that person, to that thing or to that idea. Can you look at it without any distortion?
13:22	Distortion involves judgement, prejudice, suppression, all that.
13:30	Just to observe it without any distortion.
13:44	And does fear then arise? Or you suppose fear arises.
13:55	You think fear arises, or is that a fact?
14:05	I’m attached. Suppose I am attached to this house. First, I want to find out if I am really attached to it, what is involved in it.
14:19	I am attached because if I’m not attached to something I may lose my identity.
14:32	So, I’m more concerned with my identity than with attachment, because my desire for identity forces me to be attached to something, or it may be I’m lonely.
14:52	BJ: But that doesn’t seem very clear. It seems clear that one is attached and one enjoys one’s attachment.
15:00	K: If you enjoy it, all right.
15:02	BJ: Get security from it, but it doesn’t seem very clear.
15:06	K: Those are all explanations – security, enjoyment, possession, fear, loneliness and identification.
15:26	Those are all explanations. Now, can I look at my attachment to a belief, a thing, a person, without any of those things, just to observe?
15:49	How do I observe it? Observer is the observed. That’s clear. Then I am that which I am attached to.
16:11	Now, to remain with that, without any movement of thought. Just say, ‘Yes, I’m attached to that furniture, therefore, I am that furniture.
16:24	BJ: Are you saying there’s the image of oneself and there’s the image of the furniture?
16:29	K: No, I’m not saying anything. I’m attached to that furniture.
16:36	I am that furniture, am I not? When I’m attached to something I am that furniture, I am that table.
16:44	Now, remain with that without any movement.
16:51	To observe it without any movement of thought.
17:12	Come on, sir. Can you do this? Of course one can. No? Then what happens?
17:28	I am that furniture, I am that belief, or I am that thing, or I am that person.
17:35	I am that. And then what takes place?
17:48	I have filled myself with that furniture. Right?
18:02	If you want to go deeply into it, I’ve filled myself with the idea of the furniture.
18:11	Not the furniture itself but the security I have in that furniture.
18:24	If that furniture is taken away, my security is lost, so I’m frightened.
18:36	Do I see this, very clearly? Not verbally but actually see it very, very clearly, that I am frightened when that thing to which I am attached, which has given me security, is taken away or destroyed or questioned.
19:07	MZ: Is it security or is it some notion of pleasure?
19:14	K: Whatever is pleasure. We said that – pleasure, security.
19:19	MZ: Something ‘good’ that I get from it, something I feel I need.
19:26	K: Yes – need. Do I need? Go into it. I say, ‘I need attachment.’ Why? Is it like I need food?
19:51	Or, I think I need it.
19:55	MZ: Do I invest it with wellbeing and say, ‘I must have wellbeing’? And it may be the furniture or this or that, but I need that sense of wellbeing. K: Yes.
20:08	Does wellbeing depend on your attachment to furniture, to a house, to a certain conclusion?
20:23	Yes – we invest in that thing or person or whatever, hoping that it will give us wellbeing.
20:36	Now, after explaining all that, do you see when that thing which you think will give you wellbeing is taken away, the fear arises – or what actually it is?
21:04	JZ: For most of us here, I don’t see that as a real problem.
21:08	K: Then, take a real problem. Why did you let me go on?
21:15	JZ: It’s a beginning, to go into a deeper kind of attachment. Most of us have far better taste in clothes or automobiles than we can afford, but we don’t let that dictate our lives.
21:30	K: What is the deeper problem, sir?
21:33	JZ: That we can get attached, also, to experiences, memories.
21:38	K: Of course – all that’s involved.
21:42	JZ: We have a storehouse of things which we’ll never forget, unforgettable experiences. K: Right, include that.
21:53	One is attached to one’s experiences, remembrances.
22:02	JZ: We do remember.
22:04	MZ: Even if they’re disagreeable we’re still attached to them.
22:08	K: To those things which are pleasurable.
22:10	JZ: Or disagreeable.
22:14	K: Are we aware of this? That’s all I’m asking. Am I aware that my attachment is to the experiences that I have had and the remembrances of them, pleasurable or painful?
22:34	And I’m attached because without them, I feel lost, because they give me a great deal of pleasure, because I identify myself with them, therefore they give me security.
22:56	I could give half a dozen reasons. Am I aware of all this?
23:04	MZ: Isn’t the notion of the self involved, because many of the painful ones we’d think, logically, we’d discard but we can’t because... K: Are we aware of all this?
23:22	Am I aware of them as clearly as I’m aware of you sitting there?
23:32	BJ: I’m also aware of a contradiction between what you’re saying and looking, as there seems a strong separation between the furniture, between the images, and a sense of the self that’s looking.
23:49	K: I don’t quite follow this. Division you mean?
23:54	BJ: There seems to be ‘me’ looking at the furniture.
24:02	K: What? I don’t understand, sorry.
24:07	BJ: There seems to be a sense that there is someone...
24:12	K: Separate from looking. All right. We’ve been through that before. The observer is the observed.
24:27	The thinker is thought, isn’t it? There is no thinking without thought. There is no thinker without all the thoughts that he has collected.
24:44	The thinker is the thought. That’s clear. We don’t have to beat that drum, endlessly, have we?
24:57	MZ: But the mind jibs at that: take away the thought and what’s left?
25:04	I’m gone. I don’t exist.
25:06	K: I am just asking something. Please, let’s be simple. One is attached for various, multiple reasons – pleasure, security, remembrances of experiences and holding onto them, neurotic if they’re sad, non-neurotic when they are pleasurable.
25:37	Are we aware of this whole business of attachment?
25:45	Let’s stick to that one thing.
25:55	It may be very much deeper than all this, of which I’m not, consciously, aware.
26:09	Right, sir? Now, how do you explore the deeper levels of attachment?
26:26	I may be aware of my attachments superficially but deep down I may still be attached to something of which I am not conscious, not aware.
26:44	How shall I pull all those out? You understand my question?
26:56	Now, I am asking you, as a student, how do you do this?
27:07	You have told me not to be attached. I understand superficial attachments. But I may be very deeply attached to something I’m not aware of.
27:19	Please tell me, what am I to do? You are in that position, come, help me. I am the student. What am I to do?
27:34	DP: Luckily, no student would ask that question.
27:35	K: I am the student. Don’t postpone it. I am asking you. I want to learn from you.
27:44	CS: What is the sense or the feeling that one does have attachments that are deeper?
27:52	Is that intelligence telling you to go deeper?
27:56	K: You have pointed out to me, superficially, certain forms of attachment, and the many of them.
28:05	I say, ‘Yes, sir.’ I’m a fairly intelligent student and I say, ‘You haven’t explained.
28:15	There may be deeper attachments. Are there deeper attachments, sir? If there are, please explain. I want to learn how to expose them, bring them out.’ MZ: Can’t one explore the fact that all these separate attachments seem to lead to a common root?
28:43	K: Agreed. Now, go further. I want to know. I am the student. Please explain to me.
28:57	You are preventing the student to ask deeper questions.
29:06	You’re not encouraging me to say, ‘Let’s talk about it, find out.’ MZ: Let’s put it as a question, then.
29:15	No, I’m asking you. You’re the student. In examining your own attachments, does it seem there is some central attachment?
29:24	K: Maybe, maybe. MZ: What does that seem...?
29:27	K: I don’t know. Please, teach me. I’m learning. MZ: Can you examine it?
29:32	K: I want to learn, so please, discuss it with me. Don’t you do it. You’re not a teacher here.
29:49	Philip Brew: Can we follow one of these more obvious attachments right back, see where it goes? K: Follow it, sir.
29:57	I am the student. Teach. I want to learn.
30:12	SF: Do we have an attachment to a self-image?
30:16	K: Yes, I have. I understand that, sir. I’ve found that I’m attached to my image, which my parents… because I’m fairly intelligent, I’ve heard all this before, I’ve attended Saanen talks, I’ve been here, I’ve done this, I’ve read a few chapters or heard somebody talking about it, and I’m fairly intelligent.
30:38	Encourage me to be more vital in this question, don’t put me off.
30:59	I understand all these things fairly well, perhaps intellectually – verbally, rather.
31:06	I understand this, I’ve got a glimpse of it. And I’m asking you, as an educator, please, I may be very deeply attached to something which may be hidden round the corner.
31:25	I want to find out.
31:33	What’s your answer?
31:41	BJ: It seems necessary that we keep very careful watch to see any hint of this deeper attachment.
31:50	K: What are you saying, sir? I’m asking something, you’re saying something else. Sorry, I am the student, I’m persisting in this question.
32:05	BJ: It’s possible there may be some deeper attachment.
32:08	K: Please show me, help me.
32:12	BJ: I don’t know that I can help you.
32:16	K: Have you asked this question to yourself, sir?
32:19	BJ: Yes. K: What’s your answer?
32:23	BJ: I’m watching and I’m seeing if there is deeper attachment.
32:28	K: Is there? If there is, how did you find out if there is a deeper attachment?
32:40	BJ: I must observe, he must observe. K: Yes, sir, I have observed.
32:47	I have observed I am attached to my memories. I’ve observed I’m attached to furniture, a house – we’ve been through all that.
33:00	I’ve listened to you very carefully and I want to understand this question very, very deeply.
33:07	There may be some other or deeper attachment, and that may be the centre of all attachments – as Mrs Zimbalist pointed out.
33:24	Could you help me to understand that thing?
33:29	MS: You must start off by eliminating all the attachments that you’re aware of.
33:33	K: I have. I don’t know if I can eliminate it, I understand it. I’m trying to be free of my various...
33:43	Now, I want, please, the deep one, the root one.
33:49	MS: If you have been able to say to yourself, ‘I’m attached to this,’ I realise I’m attached to this, what would happen if I were without this?
33:59	If you say, ‘I can get rid of that’ and go through the various things you’re attached to, and if you can still say, at the end of it, ‘I’m still getting some feeling of security and pleasure, I don’t know from what,’ then you’re getting down to what it might be, deeper.
34:17	K: So you’re telling me that maybe if I really get rid of the superficial ones I may discover this deep-rooted, unconscious attachment.
34:38	Is that what you’re saying, sir?
34:40	JZ: It may take years to do that. MZ: Yes, that could take forever.
34:43	JZ: It’s like peeling an onion. K: Yes.
34:50	JZ: We’ve said that the process of how these attachments are formed, to see that, once and for all, clearly, is the nugget of the problem.
35:10	Somehow, when something happens to us, an experience or seeing an automobile, there is that recording in memory, it gets recorded and the awareness has to be very clear at that point.
35:34	K: I’m too young and I don’t know I’ve recorded. But you are asking me a different question altogether. You’re saying don’t record at all – which we’ve discussed at the meetings. Now, I’m a student here, please answer my question. Please help me as Mr Simmons has helped...
36:01	JZ: As a student, do you see the necessity of getting to the root of this problem?
36:08	K: I don’t understand it fully but I want to get to the root of something.
36:12	JZ: You do want to get to the root? K: I do.
36:15	JZ: Do you think this is a proper approach?
36:22	K: I don’t know. I’ve listened to all of you. He says something, he says something. I’m lost. J Z: How are you going to find out?
36:33	K: I don’t know. You all must know.
36:37	JZ: Do you recognise it’s worth doing?
36:40	K: I recognise, very well, that it’s worth doing because my parents are Catholic and when their attachments are shaken they get frightened, get irritable with me.
36:58	I’ve seen all that.
37:00	JZ: If it’s worth doing what are you going to do?
37:02	K: So I say, ‘I want to be free of my attachments.’ I see the implication, not clearly, but I see the necessity of it.
37:11	JZ: How are you going to do it?
37:14	K: I don’t know. Please teach me. J Z: How are you going to find out?
37:19	K: Because you’re much older than I am.
37:21	JZ: Are you going to find out by asking questions?
37:25	K: Asking questions, together investigating, together pulling the plugs out. J Z: Together, then?
37:31	K: Together. J Z: What is your question?
37:34	K: My question is… You are…! My question is very simple.
37:47	Since I have been here, I’ve heard these talks and discussions and what he has said. I see I’m attached – to my pleasure, to my ideas, to my experience, my this, that – I’m very well aware of it. I see it very clearly.
38:05	Not all the implications of it, because I’m too young, but I see the outlines of it. I’ll fill up the details later.
38:17	My question is, apparently there must be a very deep-rooted attachment.
38:27	If I can understand that, then all these things will have no meaning.
38:38	You’re talking of branches, I want to talk about the root. Is there a root so hidden that by talking over with you, I want to learn about it.
38:53	I may not be able to do it, I’m too young, but if you plant the seed in me, it’ll operate.
39:02	Come on! My question is very clear.
39:07	SN: To me, the deepest attachment seems to be to the self, or the self-image. K: All right.
39:16	If it is the self, what do you mean by that? You can’t just throw it out. I’m a student. You are teaching me English. You have to teach me this, equally.
39:34	SF: All the ideas we have about ourselves, the ideas that we like to have and we like others to have, we’re very attached to that. K: You are you saying to me, that as long as you have an image about yourself that may be the deep-rooted attachment?
39:55	You didn’t say that, I’m saying it and you agree.
40:00	MZ: Shakuntala did say that, not in those words but... Baruch Livneh: It seems that we’re starting to explain something that we don’t really understand.
40:14	K: So, you teachers are not clear on this.
40:21	CS: Once you have an image about yourself, it’s implied – take away the image and then there’ll be the true self.
40:31	Even an image of yourself, you say, ‘I’ll look at those images’ but perhaps even in that language, one creates an image that there is a self.
40:44	Take away the images, then there’ll be the real you.
40:47	MZ: That’s another image.
40:50	K: Yes. I won’t enter into that game.
40:57	That’s an old game that they have played for a million years – ‘the real self.’ I say that is bunk.
41:05	CS: If you say to a student, ‘You have images about yourself...’ K: As a student, I’m asking you, is that the root of all attachments?
41:19	Is that the trunk or the root that throws out all this? And if you can teach me to understand that, perhaps I shall be free of all attachments, something new may come out of it. I don’t know.
41:36	You have listened to this poor chap for umpteen years, tell me about it, teach me.
41:45	SN: That seems to be at the root. K: Which is that?
41:50	SN: My attachment to myself. We could go deeper and find out what the self is.
41:57	K: Attachment to myself. Then, I’m asking, what is myself, which you say I’m attached to? I don’t know.
42:08	BJ: Is it, perhaps, myself is the feeling that I exist, that I am the centre of the world, the feeling of my body, all these things, that’s what makes me feel I am myself.
42:25	Maybe that’s quite an illusion.
42:28	K: So you are saying I’m attached to my body, I’m attached to my senses, to my ideas, I’m attached to my thinking, to my images.
42:44	Is that what you’re all saying? Q: That’s right.
42:53	Then proceed. All right, I realise that, sirs. Then what? Do you also, as the teachers, realise this too? Or are you playing a game with me? I’ve a right to ask you. You are the teachers.
43:21	Do you realise, sirs, that you are attached to your body?
43:27	BJ: Yes.
43:29	K: So you’re asking me to be free of my attachment to my body, whereas you are attached to your body? Ingrid Porter: We’re not asking you to be free of it but to look at it.
43:40	K: Have you looked at it? BJ: We’re looking at it.
43:42	K: No, have you looked at it? Don’t say, ‘We are looking at it.’ Because you have learnt mathematics, so you’re teaching me mathematics.
43:50	You’ve gone into it. Or are you doing, just now, mathematics?
44:03	The student is putting to you all the questions which you should put.
44:12	BJ: He is a bright student. K: I am a bright student. I want all the students to be bright like that.
44:29	I sent my son here for that.
44:33	SF: It’s very difficult for us to look at our self-images because there’s fear involved and insecurity.
44:43	K: Please tell me, sir, if you have looked at yourself. You’re asking me to do it. Do you know what it means? Have you done it? You know a great deal about video tape because you have studied it, gone into it and so you can teach me about the video tape.
45:06	In the same way, have you gone into this to teach me? Or you say, ‘Sorry, I haven’t gone.’ SF: I’ve gone in far enough to see that there’s fear involved.
45:15	K: Tell me how far. I want to walk the same way. Good Lord!
45:22	JZ: As a student, you’re suggesting that I’m asking you to do something that I haven’t done myself.
45:32	K: Partly that. J Z: Have you looked at yourself, because that seems... K: As a student?
45:40	JZ: As a student, have you looked at yourself?
45:42	K: I don’t know quite, sir, what it means.
45:44	JZ: Then how can you ask me? K: I don’t quite know what it means to look at myself because myself varies, when I’m playing football, I’m reading, thinking about a girl – it’s all such a mess, a conglomeration.
46:01	It’s like wheels turning. Which wheel am I to look at?
46:10	IP: I don’t think it’s a question of asking each other – the teacher, the student – ‘Have you done it?’ But for both of them to be prepared to do it, together.
46:20	K: I said that. Let’s do it together. To do it together, you must help me to do it together, but you’re not.
46:32	IP: That’s what we’re wanting to do, now.
46:34	K: Do it. I’m the student.
46:40	Q: So you have this image, you’re a student, that’s one thing you can look at. You have this image that we’re a teacher, another thing to look at.
46:49	K: You say, ‘Look at yourself.’ You have to explain to this me.
46:57	It’s an idea which has just struck me. You have to explain to me which is myself. I seem to be so many selves – when I play football, when I eat, when I talk, when I look at the girl, – you follow? – which is myself in all this?
47:22	CS: Is there a guiding principle of all these roles that one plays?
47:29	K: I don’t know. You say to me, ‘Look at yourself.’ I look at myself and I see I’m all these things.
47:38	MZ: Don’t you see that all those things are emanating from an entity that we think of as a self.
47:49	One may discuss whether that’s a reality.
47:53	K: So you’re saying I’m all these things, are you?
47:56	MZ: Yes. K: That’s all I want to know. I’m all these things.
48:05	CS: But there may be a principle guiding it. A boy on the football field may get intense pleasure when he’s on the winning side, when he’s thinking of a girl, and when he’s eating. K: So, I’m all that.
48:20	CS: But it’s basically the same search for what he likes.
48:28	K: First, let me understand slowly. I am all that. Then, in all that, which has the primary place?
48:43	Which takes the most important part in all this?
48:48	CS: Pleasure. K: I don’t know, tell me.
48:54	BJ: Isn’t it the sense of myself as being the focus, the centre?
49:01	The sense that I have of myself being the centre in those activities.
49:06	K: Those activities indicate my various activities?
49:16	BJ: I haven’t understood you.
49:18	K: You say, ‘Look at yourself.’ I look at myself and I see myself is such a variety of activities.
49:33	I then ask which is the most dominant factor in all these activities?
49:44	SF: Isn’t it the process that creates all this variety?
49:50	MZ: Aren’t they all aspects of one thing?
49:55	K: What is that one thing? I agree these are all different facets of this one thing.
50:06	What is that one thing?
50:09	BJ: It’s the feeling that I am the centre of the world.
50:19	K: No, you haven’t understood what I said. Sorry, sir.
50:27	SN: Sir, are you asking what is guiding me in all those activities, what is pushing me?
50:34	K: Or from which all these things take place.
50:38	DP: Search for pleasure.
50:40	K: A centre from which all these things act. What is that?
50:45	SN: I would say search for pleasure, too. I seem to go towards what gives me the greatest pleasure.
50:54	K: You say pleasure, somebody else says fear – I’m lost.
51:00	BJ: Isn’t it the same thing? There’s pleasure and there’s pain.
51:04	K: I don’t know, sir. I’m new to all this game that you have been playing for five years.
51:10	BJ: It’s necessary to look then. K: I’m looking.
51:15	BJ: Aren’t you searching for pleasure most of the day and avoiding pain?
51:21	K: Maybe. All right.
51:27	DP: Then the student says, ‘Aren’t you, too?’ K: I’m just new, I won’t be impudent right at the beginning.
51:48	So you have left me dry.
51:55	With a lot of words.
51:59	CS: When you’re pursuing with a student, pointing out examples, many times young people don’t press on.
52:15	When something begins not to be fun anymore they don’t carry on with it.
52:19	K: I don’t press on, that is because I don’t know how to push.
52:29	Help me to push, help me to dig deeply.
52:42	CS: To dig deeper one has to acquire a sense that perhaps there is a sphere beyond pleasure and pain.
52:51	K: I don’t know. C S: For most adolescents, their experience with the world has told them
53:02	they don’t see anything but their own self-concerns.
53:06	K: What are adolescents interested in most?
53:10	CS: Pursuing the pleasures of the self.
53:13	K: Pleasure. Right? J Z: Fun. K. Fun – which is pleasure. All right.
53:25	CS: We’ve painted a dark picture of adolescents.
53:34	K: And you’re saying, ‘Look at your pleasure.’ I say, ‘Right, sir, I’ll look at it. What’s wrong with it?
53:54	I have fun. What’s wrong with it?’ And you say, ‘Dig deeply.’ I’m digging, what’s wrong with it?
54:07	My God!
54:09	CS: What if we approach the repetitiveness, the mechanical, showing the student his reaction to a favourite food, you can almost predict what he is going to do, and how mechanical it becomes, pursuing pleasure.
54:26	And from there, one might explore the whole question does one want to live a mechanical life?
54:34	Perhaps that’s a way that a sixteen or seventeen year old might have some understanding of what it means to be mechanical.
54:42	And is there something besides this?
54:45	K: I don’t know. Show me, help me. Teach me. I want to learn.
54:51	CS: Yes, but if you do point out the mechanistic aspects of this...
54:54	K: Wait, my lady. I want to learn. You’re saying what? Teach me.
55:01	You’re saying there’s something more than pleasure.
55:05	CS: More than mechanism.
55:08	MZ: And the implication that pain must accompany pleasure.
55:17	BJ: It’s not so much that there is something more but isn’t it rather clear, if you look closely at pleasure, that it’s integral with pain, it can’t be separated from pain, and this movement between pleasure and pain is very mechanical?
55:34	K: You are saying pleasure breeds fear. How do I have pleasure without fear? That’s what I’m searching for.
55:44	JZ: But if it’s not fun to go into that, I won’t begin.
55:48	K: That’s what I’m asking. It’s fun for me to find out if I can separate the two and hold this down and go after pleasure.
55:59	JZ: But you are still pursuing fun now, you see?
56:02	K: Of course I am. Wait! I still want pleasure, without fear.
56:10	BJ: But that’s what you’re doing anyway.
56:12	K: I’m doing it and you’re saying, ‘Look out, at the end of it, you’re going to have a mighty fall in fear.’ BJ: Don’t you think that might be the case?
56:21	K: Maybe. Therefore, tell me how to avoid one and hold onto the other.
56:28	BJ: But you can’t. K: So, you’re saying you can’t. Right. Teach me. I’ve learnt. I think you have done it so I say, ‘I’ll accept that, for the moment, until somebody else comes along and contradicts that.’ BJ: But I don’t understand why you’re accepting it.
56:47	Each time you look at it, I’m saying, ‘Can you see it?’ K: I’m learning, sir.
56:53	BJ: But to learn is not to accept.
56:56	K: I’m learning that the two cannot be separated.
57:00	BJ: You see that? K: I’m learning. My mind is still hankering after pleasure and there is always...
57:13	Now I have learnt that even though I pursue pleasure, fear is always coming behind, a shadow, but yet my mind is pushing me in the direction of pleasure.
57:24	So, I’m aware of this game. Then how am I to deal with this, pleasure and fear?
57:41	What am I to...? C S: One can watch it. With that verbal understanding...
57:47	K: No, no, it’s not a verbal understanding. I smell it, I taste it, I have a slight glimpse of it.
57:53	CS: You’ve seen it working in your own life?
57:58	K: Yes, I see a glimpse of it. Help me to push deeper.
58:05	You asked deeper – push me in.
58:14	Don’t leave me with that thing and say, ‘Find out,’ and walk off.
58:25	How am I, who have discovered this thing from your talk – that the two are always together, like the shadow and the real...
58:38	they are always together. But my feelings, longing, is to pursue pleasure and avoid the other.
58:51	And you have shown me, or planted a seed, the two must, inevitably, go together, do what you will.
59:01	I say, ‘Yes, I’m beginning to see that, because I’ve found that out this morning.’ Then, please push me further.
59:19	BJ: How do you look at this?
59:21	K: I look at it as I look at that tree. I look at it as though I was... I see myself like that.
59:33	I see myself doing this, pursuing and pleasure, and a shadow comes along, fear. I’ve captured that. Don’t rub that in, that’s finished.
59:47	BJ: There’s an entity that’s looking at these past activities, running after pleasure and avoiding pain.
59:53	K: Yes, I see that.
59:57	BJ: Isn’t that entity that’s looking at the past activities, isn’t that still holding onto the activities?
1:00:09	K: No. I want pleasure and avoid pain, that’s my pursuit. And now I’ve learnt, you’ve shown me, slightly, that the two are inevitable.
1:00:23	Black and white, they go together. You’re asking, how do you look at it? Is that it? How are you aware of it? I don’t know. I see it.
1:00:40	I don’t know how I’m aware of it. I know. It is so.
1:00:45	BJ: But aren’t you still aware of it from a centre, looking?
1:00:48	K: I don’t know. Show me.
1:00:52	MZ: What is it that’s looking at that thing?
1:01:00	K: What are you all doing with me?
1:01:04	MZ: We’re trying to answer your... K: Throwing bricks at me? Stop throwing bricks at me and find out what to do with me.
1:01:20	I’ve come to a certain point and you don’t help me to go further.
1:01:25	MZ: We’re suggesting that you try to look at what that central thing is, that seems to have seen something. K: Do you do the same?
1:01:35	MZ: Yes. K: How do you do it and what do you mean, look at the centre?
1:01:40	MZ: In the very way that we’re examining now, which is to try to see what is behind these things.
1:01:48	Is there something back of the impulse?
1:01:51	K: I don’t know. MZ: But we can look at it together.
1:01:55	K: I don’t know, I’m saying.
1:01:58	MZ: It isn’t a matter of knowing, is it? Perhaps none of us knows.
1:02:02	K: I don’t know, there may be nothing or there may be something.
1:02:05	MZ: Well, is that, to you, worth examining? Perhaps there will be nothing.
1:02:11	K: I don’t know how to examine something which I’m not aware of.
1:02:21	You’re all being damned clever. So am I! Saral Bohm: Could we say that we started with pleasure and came to...
1:02:31	K: You’re missing my point.
1:02:35	BJ: I think you’ve gone further than us.
1:02:38	K: I’m a brighter student.
1:02:41	SB: But we did discover that fear was behind pleasure and the pain, can’t we now start looking at what is behind the fear?
1:02:51	K: I know nothing about what is behind fear. You’re asking me to look at something I don’t know.
1:02:59	MZ: Can’t you look at a fear, what is the quality, what is the action of that fear?
1:03:06	Can you describe it to us?
1:03:08	K: I’m frightened. Frightened of not passing exams, of what my parents might say to me, I’m frightened of my future.
1:03:20	I may never have a job, I may lose everything. I know all that, but to go beyond that, I don’t know.
1:03:29	MZ: Can’t you examine what is being threatened in that?
1:03:36	K: I’m just frightened. MZ: What are you protecting?
1:03:39	K: Please, I’m just frightened. Don’t say to look beyond.
1:03:44	MZ: Can you look at that fear and see what is in the middle of it?
1:03:49	K: I’m just frightened, paralysed. Maria, you’re not answering my question. You say, ‘Look into it.’ I’m just frightened. You people, playing games.
1:04:00	BJ: What do you mean when you say you’re frightened?
1:04:03	K: Don’t you know what it means to be frightened, when you’re paralysed? You put me in this position now, that I’m frightened. I’m frightened of my future, frightened of this and that. You have given me real fear now, that I might lose my pleasure.
1:04:26	BJ: But you have a sensation.
1:04:28	K: Don’t talk to me about... I’m frightened! And you say, ‘Look behind it and see if there’s something behind.’ I don’t know how to look behind something which I don’t know.
1:04:39	JZ: Let’s look at the fright itself. Let’s stay on the fright, then.
1:04:46	MZ: You’re frightened of something. K: I give up. You’re not answering my questions.
1:04:53	CS: You’re a student at Brockwood and it’s very comfortable here, it’s very secure. K: Yes, I don’t want to leave here.
1:05:01	You’ve been very kind to me, somebody cooks my food, I don’t want to leave. I’m frightened if you throw me out.
1:05:13	So, and you say to me, ‘Look behind that fear.’ MZ: Look at that fear. K: I know, I am looking at it.
1:05:24	I’m fully aware of the beastly thing that one day Mrs Simmons and all of you say, ‘You have passed your exam, Old Boy – out.’ BJ: I don’t think you are looking at it, I think you’re hanging onto it.
1:05:44	K: I’m frightened, sir.
1:05:48	CS: Perhaps one should explore the question of security.
1:05:57	K: I have been secure here and I want you to assure me that there is security outside.
1:06:07	That’s what I want. C S: Yes, but in fact, there isn’t.
1:06:12	K: So you’re saying there is no security here nor out there.
1:06:18	CS: There is security here in that we try to make a nice home.
1:06:24	K: Face the fact that there is no security here, nor out there.
1:06:29	JZ: But when someone is frightened they can’t see that. Maybe we’re saying that driving a person to that point of fear, it’s a blockage.
1:06:43	The person is blocked and we’re blocked in communication.
1:06:46	K: So, please don’t drive me to that point, which you have done.
1:06:53	MZ: This student brought that about. He brought it rather on himself.
1:07:00	The student in question brought it on himself, by his questioning.
1:07:05	K: Poor boy. Of course I’ve brought it on myself. My parents shouldn’t have brought me, at all. They shouldn’t have slept together, to bring me in this beastly world.
1:07:18	MZ: The student that cannot begin to look at this would not have asked those questions and wouldn’t have got those replies.
1:07:29	K: I have no security here and I’ve no security out there, and I suddenly realise what you have told me is true, and I get scared.
1:07:42	Don’t tell me, ‘Look at it properly, is there a centre’ – I’m scared. How do you deal with that?
1:08:06	JZ: One thing is not to be frightened by that fear. I’m not frightened by your fear.
1:08:14	K: My dear sir, you may not be frightened but I am.
1:08:21	I’m scared stiff. I came here, I’ve lived here for four years, I’ve found marvellous security, a comfortable, lovely place, I feel at home – and I’m going to be thrown out, passed exams, leave the place and I’m frightened.
1:08:41	Deal with that fact!
1:08:44	JZ: Are we saying now...? It may be impossible to deal with that fear while the person has that fear.
1:08:54	K: I have got that fear. J Z: We have to find some way.
1:08:58	K: I’ll show it to you. You’re the teachers. You’re learning together, but you’re merely making a statement. I want to learn from you. I see that I have security here which has been very pleasurable.
1:09:17	Occasionally, we are frightened, but on the whole I am safe here.
1:09:24	I’m going to leave the day after tomorrow. I’m nervous, anxious, and the world, I know very well – my parents have lost their job, my parents are divorced, they don’t care a damn what happens to me, – I’m frightened.
1:09:43	So deal with that fact.
1:09:48	BJ: Perhaps the question is whether this fear that you have, is it something that you’re just going to let get covered up?
1:10:01	K: Oh, no, I’m too young – don’t play all those games with me. I’m frightened. Deal with that fact, sir!
1:10:11	BJ: Are you interested in dealing with this fear?
1:10:16	K: What a question to ask when I’m scared, ‘Are you interested in it?’ I’ve got a toothache and you say, ‘Are you interested in toothache?’ I say, ‘Of course I’m interested!
1:10:32	I’m in blazing pain!’ You awaken my intelligence up to a certain point – right? – that there is no security here, that there is no – up to a point, but you don’t make it flower.
1:11:04	You’ve left me with that point. I don’t know what to do with it.
1:11:18	Now, shall we reverse the tables? You are the students, I am the teacher. That’s much better, isn’t it?
1:11:33	Are you scared, sir?
1:11:44	Are you frightened? When you know there is no security out there, there’s no security here – are you frightened? J Z: Of course.
1:11:54	K: Then, let’s proceed. Thank God. Shall we?
1:12:01	JZ: No, I just want to get rid of this fear.
1:12:04	K: I’m going to show it to you. J Z: I don’t want to go anywhere.
1:12:07	JZ: I don’t want to see it, I just want to get rid of it.
1:12:09	K: I will do it. J Z: No!
1:12:11	K: Well, my dear chap, it’s like saying, ‘I’ve got toothache. I won’t go the dentist. I won’t do anything about it.’ Then my dear chap, sink in it. J Z: I was happy...
1:12:25	K: Wallow in it. J Z: I just want to have fun.
1:12:28	K: That’s not an intelligent... No, come off it.
1:12:32	JZ: But that’s a fear response, that’s the real response.
1:12:37	K: No, it’s not. You’re putting it on.
1:12:39	JZ: No, I don’t think so.
1:12:41	K: If you’ve got a violent toothache would you say, ‘I’ve got toothache, pain, pain’ and not do anything?
1:12:50	JZ: I wouldn’t. I’d brush my teeth. You see what I mean?
1:12:58	K: You’re avoiding my question.
1:13:01	JZ: But we don’t get people that sit in front of us that are shaking and quivering with fear.
1:13:08	K: You said you’re frightened.
1:13:11	JZ: I’m frightened, all right, but my fear prevents me from listening, even.
1:13:15	K: Then don’t listen. D P: It doesn’t, actually.
1:13:16	JZ: And that’s it then. K: Finished – then don’t listen.
1:13:20	DP: But that’s not true. It doesn’t prevent you from listening, actually.
1:13:23	K: That’s just playing. D P: No, I mean at the moment.
1:13:26	JZ: I think it does, yes. K: I give up.
1:13:29	JZ: Fear distorts.
1:13:32	DP: Do you mean to say that you’re so frightened, just now, that you can’t listen? K: Of course, he can.
1:13:37	MZ: For some people, it’s so painful and awful to be frightened, they don’t recognise... K: But when it’s very painful, you say, ‘For God’s sake, give me some pill, take me to the doctor!’ DP: We’re dealing with actualities now, aren’t we?
1:13:53	MZ: Well, let’s say... K: I won’t play games, ‘Let us say.’ JZ: There is a certain danger in asking one person to pretend or take a point of view.
1:14:05	I’m not a student, and you’re not a student, for the first hour and a half, you weren’t frightened, so we were getting in a pretend situation.
1:14:16	K: I put myself purposely as a student in order to... how you will help the student to awaken to his fears.
1:14:24	JZ: But we understand that. K: That’s all. Don’t leave him there.
1:14:29	MZ: Are you asking us, directly, are we, each one of us, afraid at the moment? If so, I have to say no.
1:14:36	K: Not at the moment. For God’s sake.
1:14:39	MZ: Then we give you a ‘yes’ answer to proceed with the dialogue. So, let’s assume we all know what fear is.
1:14:49	K: You don’t remain with fear. Find out, go into it. If you say, ‘I’m not interested in it, I just want to get rid of it.’ You won’t even take the trouble to go to the dentist.
1:15:05	JZ: But the student asks then, ‘Show me how to go into it.’ I don’t know how to go into it. K: I’ll show it to you.
1:15:13	Will you listen? Will you take the trouble, as you took the trouble to learn physics, will you take the trouble to go into this, give as much energy?
1:15:24	JZ: I don’t know. What you may say, may frighten me.
1:15:28	K: I don’t know. So, first you find out. Get into the car, go to the dentist. He may be the rotten dentist. So, ‘Sorry, then I won’t go there, take me to the other one.’ At least, you must do that, not just sit indoors and say, ‘I’ve got pain, pain, pain.’ CS: You’re saying you must take action.
1:15:52	JZ: But you haven’t done that yourself. You haven’t gone through fear yourself.
1:15:58	K: Ah, that was entre nous. That’s biographical notes.
1:16:07	JZ: I don’t mean that. I mean as a teacher, a student says to you, ‘But you haven’t gone through fear yourself.’ ‘How do I know that what you’re going to suggest to me to do is just going to distort me more. It’s going to be more trouble.’ K: Listen to what I have to say and find out.
1:16:28	Use your own intelligence to find out. That’s quite right. No?
1:16:42	JZ: My intelligence tells me that if you haven’t done it yourself...
1:16:45	K: No, that’s not the point. I should never have told you then.
1:16:53	JZ: If you can’t do it yourself what good is the prescription?
1:16:55	K: I know – I’ve watched it, I’ve seen fear around me and listened to fears of many thousand people, I know how to deal with it.
1:17:03	JZ: You’re still in fear, though. K: Of course not, I’d be a damned fool, hypocritical if I said, ‘I’ve still fear and I’ll teach you how to be free of fear.’ Q: In confronting the student, he might question, ‘How can I get from fear when you haven’t yourself?’ K: That’s the whole point.
1:17:28	CS: You’re saying that there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
1:17:34	K: Yes, if you want to walk through the tunnel, there is.
1:17:38	JZ: You’re also saying that a person who hasn’t gone through fear has no business talking about fear.
1:17:43	BJ: But I think we’ve missed a point. Krishnaji said earlier we’re reversing the table.
1:17:48	JZ: He’s reversed it twice. He switches back and forth between being Krishnamurti and being a teacher.
1:17:57	BJ: But right now, Krishnaji, you’re the teacher and we’re the students?
1:18:02	K: Yes, but a teacher in the sense, in a class, no more than that.
1:18:13	JZ: So, are you going to teach us about fear?
1:18:16	K: No, you know fear. I don’t have to teach you about fear. But I’ll point out the way to completely be free of fear. If you are interested, tread it and find out. If you’re not, it’s all right. I shan’t weep over you.
1:18:40	If you’re not interested, all right, you’re not interested. But if you’re really interested in having your pain removed, I say do these things.
1:18:54	JZ: I’ll listen to you. K: How will you listen? I’m not going to waste my energy on you, if you say, ‘I’ll just listen casually and find out if anything you say...’ I want to know how you listen.
1:19:10	I’ve a right to know.
1:19:16	Q: With energy. Come on, let’s just listen.
1:19:18	K: Ask him, he’s answered. How do you listen?
1:19:25	JZ: No, I see the point. I think we all see the point, but...
1:19:29	K: If you see the point, let’s move next.
1:19:31	JZ: No, because a student who’s in fear, at that time, I don’t know if they can see that point.
1:19:38	K: I don’t think they can at that moment, when they’re scared stiff, but you say, ‘Hold on a minute, we’ll talk about it tomorrow.’ You’re not like that.
1:19:52	JZ: No, but if you start talking about anything that’s not fear – listening, as an example – if I start paying some attention to the question about listening then I’m not in fear and you’ve got me out of fear.
1:20:05	K: No. That’s only temporary. That’s only momentary. I’m talking of being completely free of fear, not momentary cessation of fear.
1:20:22	Are you willing to listen to find out? If you are, then we’ll proceed. Then we have established communication. Our minds are together, then. But if you say, ‘Show me first then I’ll do it,’ then we’ll break off. But when you say, together we are now in communication so that our minds, our brains are working together.
1:20:59	Right?
1:21:03	JZ: That requires you to be listening in the same way.
1:21:07	K: Of course, I’m listening to you, very carefully. So we are doing it together. Our brains are working together. That’s the first thing when we are listening. So we are in communication. When we discuss or have a dialogue our minds are not in communication because then you’re thinking for yourself and questioning.
1:21:39	Here, both of us want to find out, go into it, explore the whole thing.
1:21:52	So our brains are communicating with each other. There is no me and you battling about it.
1:22:08	JZ: Is there fear then? K: Wait. I don’t know. I say we have established communication first.
1:22:24	Then you must carefully pursue this, together, not go off and then come back again.
1:22:34	We must keep at the same level all the time.
1:22:38	JZ: Together also means that neither of us know where it’s going, that neither of us know what’s at the end of this, that there is no end to this communication.
1:22:50	We begin, but you don’t know, you have no conclusion as to what the answer is.
1:22:59	K: No, but we both are in communication to find out if it is possible to be free of fear, completely.
1:23:10	Right? So.
1:23:20	JZ: But sitting there, don’t you know that it is possible? Do you know that it’s possible?
1:23:27	K: For myself, I know completely it is possible – not for you.
1:23:32	JZ: Then how can there be a communication?
1:23:33	K: Of course there’s communication. What are you talking about?
1:23:37	JZ: See, there’s no risk for you.
1:23:41	K: We’re not talking about risk. No, Mr Joe.
1:23:44	JZ: You don’t think that you’re going to find out something new.
1:23:47	K: You’re not being logical.
1:23:50	JZ: I’m not trying to be clever here. I’m suggesting that in a dialogue...
1:23:55	K: It is not a dialogue! I made it perfectly clear. Wait, wait! I made it perfectly clear. The moment it’s a dialogue, there’s a separation, between your brain and my brain.
1:24:10	But when we are communicating together over something we are both thinking about that, watching it, therefore we are in constant communication.
1:24:21	CS: The point that Joe is stumbling at is that, in actuality, you do know there’s a light…
1:24:27	K: That’s not the point. We are not concerned...
1:24:31	MZ: Doesn’t it colour the communication or the exploration?
1:24:35	K: We are both together, in exploring this fact, whether it’s possible to be free or not.
1:24:49	JZ: You’re saying that you don’t know whether it’s possible...
1:24:51	K: That’s not the point, sir. You’re missing the whole point.
1:24:56	JZ: Can you explore something you know already?
1:25:02	K: I may know it but I’m trying to tell you something. We are in communication, that’s all I’m saying. Not do I know already that I’m free of fear – we are not talking about that. You introduced that.
1:25:19	We are establishing communication, first. Right? Not whether you are free from fear or I am free from fear.
1:25:32	DP: I think he wants the dentist to have toothache.
1:25:36	K: No, no. This is so simple.
1:25:41	JZ: To have communication, both of us have to be free from a conclusion.
1:25:47	K: I am free. We’re both investigating fear, not conclusions – fear.
1:26:00	We must establish communication, and communication ceases when there is a dialogue or questioning.
1:26:10	But when we are concerned about the same thing, both of us are in communication because we’re looking at the same thing.
1:26:27	Right, sir? Dr Bohm perhaps will explain that, much more, psychologically or scientifically, this is what I find...
1:26:37	The moment dialogue or discussion takes place there is a breakage of communication, that’s all.
1:26:50	Would you…? David Bohm: Would it be better to…? The question is… You are inquiring into something, whether people in general can be free of fear, not just one person.
1:27:03	Would you put the question that way? Saying that perhaps we’ll discover that one person can be free of fear but then there’s no reason why it couldn’t be universal.
1:27:16	The question is, can we inquire into whether anybody can be free of fear, including any person who is in communication?
1:27:28	K: We’re not in communication – that’s what I’m objecting to.
1:27:32	DB: But I meant that it’s not clear to Joe what the question is, that’s maybe why the communication is not getting started.
1:27:45	K: He’s questioning, if you are free, what the devil do you mean by not having a conclusion?
1:27:53	You’ve already concluded.
1:27:54	DB: That’s the question he’s raising.
1:27:58	K: But I say, leave all that aside but be in communication, in examination. That’s all.
1:28:07	JZ: The only question that I feel we can communicate on, is the question, am I free from fear?
1:28:18	K: All right, put it if you want to.
1:28:20	JZ: That would require you asking the question again. In the way that someone asked you, ‘Are you in a rut?’ You can’t say, ‘I’m not in a rut.’ You have to look at it.
1:28:31	K: I did. J Z: You did. It seems to me that we could inquire again, ‘Am I free from fear?’ K: But we must be in communication – that’s all I’m talking about.
1:28:44	JZ: I’m suggesting that the communication is blocked on your end.
1:28:49	K: What? J Z: It’s blocked on your end. You’re not looking at this in a way in which you...
1:29:00	You don’t have doubt, in other words. If you say, ‘This is it, and I’m going to reveal it to you,’ there’s no communication. K: Of course not.
1:29:13	JZ: You have to not be attached to that...
1:29:23	K:...to my freedom from fear. J Z: Fear.
1:29:26	K: Maybe. So I said I’m willing to examine it. I said that, right from the beginning – I’m willing to examine if I have any fear left or if there is fear.
1:29:44	JZ: Then, you may find out that you have fear. It’s possible.
1:29:48	K: I said I’m willing to. Don’t repeat that. I am willing to look at fear, if I have. So both of us start communicating with each other. We are in communication with each other because we’re both concerned with fear.
1:30:12	Both you and I and all of us, generally, if we are afraid.
1:30:19	Now, we’re not having a dialogue.
1:30:22	JZ: And neither of us know if we have fear.
1:30:26	K: We’ve established, sir, we’re both frightened. For God’s sake, don’t repeat it. I may find out I’m frightened.
1:30:36	And you may find out you’re frightened. So, we are inquiring together, about fear. Therefore, we both are in communication, and that communication comes to an end the moment we enter into a dialogue about it.
1:30:57	That is simple enough.
1:30:59	DB: Are you saying that if we start to think for ourselves about it, separately, then we are no longer communicating?
1:31:07	K: Can we proceed from there? So, we’re not having a dialogue, we’re not having a discussion, we are together investigating fear – I may find that I’m frightened, and I’ll go into that.
1:31:25	So I don’t start with the idea I’m free from fear and therefore I’m... etc., etc. Is that very clear?
1:31:34	Right. My goodness!
1:31:45	So, I want to find out what is fear. I said I’m frightened, or I’m not frightened, but first I must find out what is fear.
1:32:01	What is fear? In communication, no dialogue. What is fear? We’re both inquiring into fear. So, what is fear?
1:32:19	JZ: Fear seems to be accompanied with certain physical phenomena.
1:32:26	A sweating, a nervousness. K: A kind of slow paralysis, shrinking, a nervous response – that’s only the symptoms of it.
1:32:39	Further, what is fear? Apart from the shrinking, nervousness and sweating, a slow paralysis, what is fear?
1:32:54	The word. Is fear the word?
1:33:00	JZ: No, it’s a referent to... K: No, don’t discuss it. We are looking at it. Is fear the word?
1:33:17	Does the word create fear or is there fear without the word?
1:33:30	JZ: The sensations are obviously unpleasant but you don’t want to stay with the sensation.
1:33:36	K: We’ll come to that. You see, you’ve gone off. We’re inquiring. So I am inquiring, you are inquiring. I want to find out if the word creates fear, or does fear exist without the word?
1:33:57	JZ: Without thought? K: Without the word, first. Then I inquire, is the word the thought?
1:34:14	JZ: It’s obvious the word is thought.
1:34:17	K: So, word-thought creates fear. Is that it?
1:34:26	JZ: But there can be fear of a physical situation.
1:34:29	K: I understand that.
1:34:31	JZ: We’re not talking about that fear.
1:34:33	K: No. For the moment we’re not talking of biological fears, we’re talking about psychological fears.
1:34:39	JZ: Are we talking about imagined fears?
1:34:41	K: Imagining – not imaginative – actual fears, the sudden realisation that I have no security here and there is no security there and I am frightened.
1:34:55	That affects both biologically and psychologically.
1:35:02	We are in communication about fear. So, we are saying, the sensations which I feel when there is fear, is it the result of words plus thought, or word-thought, or is there that sensation without the word-thought?
1:35:33	BL: I’m not clear on this, are you referring to thought in general? I think the fear is not the realisation that there is no security but fear that I may fail the exam, or something.
1:35:45	K: There may be fear by itself, you mean, without any cause?
1:35:50	BL: No. There is an exam and I might fail it – I’m afraid, I’m in tension. I don’t realise that there is no security. I don’t understand when you say there is fear of the word ‘fear.’ K: We’ll go into that. Look, I’m frightened.
1:36:12	Is that fear caused by thought which says, ‘I’m going to face insecurity now’?
1:36:24	You follow? Thought says, ‘There is no security here, there is no security there.’ Therefore, thought plus the image, the word, creates the fear.
1:36:41	Right, sir? We are in communion?
1:36:45	JZ: When there is real insecurity – for food, shelter and clothing – then the energy that’s released upon that recognition seems proper.
1:36:55	Then you’ve got to do something. K: That’s what we are doing.
1:37:01	JZ: When you use the word ‘insecurity’...
1:37:05	K: We use the word ‘insecurity,’ like ‘boy’...
1:37:08	JZ: Insecurity to what? Not to physical conditions?
1:37:12	K: That may be.
1:37:15	JZ: Well, then, what’s wrong with that fear?
1:37:19	K: No, even that, I may find when I get there, actually, I will do something. When I leave here, where I’ve been secure, and thrown out there, if there is no thinking, imagining, the word ‘future,’ what will happen, I will then do something when I get there.
1:37:50	But thought projecting what might happen, causes fear. This is simple. Thought plus word creating the image, brings fear.
1:38:08	Or is there a fear without all thought, word and image?
1:38:18	We are in communion, communication.
1:38:22	JZ: Other than the recognition of danger there seems to be no possibility for fear.
1:38:36	K: So, if the word, thought, image, is non-existent, then what is left?
1:38:49	JZ: Nothing.
1:38:53	K: Nothing?
1:39:00	Why do you say nothing? I’m not discussing, I want to find out. Your examination may be right. What do you mean by ‘nothing’?
1:39:13	JZ: The word can produce a sensation but if there’s no word there’s no sensation. K: So then what?
1:39:24	JZ: There’s no sensation. K: There is sensation, in the sense, I might be left out there, cold. J Z: There’s a sensation of cold but not a sensation of fear. K: Therefore, let’s be clear.
1:39:39	So the word, thought, image has brought fear.
1:39:50	Can the brain, my whole structure, be free of word, thought, image?
1:39:59	BL: Can I go back for a second? Sometimes there is a kind of fear that happens when you hear a sudden noise or you walk and there’s an animal suddenly, and I noticed this happens usually, but sometimes you can stop it very...
1:40:26	It’s not clear to me where thought is here, because it’s instantaneous, but sometimes it doesn’t happen.
1:40:32	K: When you’re walking along and suddenly an incident – a tiger or something happens – your body shakes and is nervous, that’s self-protection, that’s not fear.
1:40:48	MZ: But it’s based on a notion of danger that’s in the mind.
1:40:53	K: Your body knows it’s dangerous and so that’s not fear, that’s intelligence, to say, ‘Save yourself.’ Biologically, that’s the right response.
1:41:12	So there is no fear if there is no word-thought-image – is that right?
1:41:24	Communication. J Z: It seems right.
1:41:28	K: Now, the next question is, can the mind, can our brain be without the word, thought and image?
1:41:50	Or word-thought-image plays such an extraordinarily important part in our life?
1:42:04	CS: It plays such an extraordinary part that there is no other space?
1:42:09	K: No, no. No, just be simple. We’re not talking of space or anything – we’re saying, word-thought-image creates fear.
1:42:25	Apart from the sudden shock – biological, sudden, when a dog jumps at you, that is purely… that’s nothing.
1:42:38	We are saying, being in communication with each other, with all of us, which is not having a dialogue or a discussion but investigating, we see word-thought-image creates fear – it creates pleasure, too – we should leave that for the moment.
1:43:07	Can the brain, can we be free... the mind free of the word, thought and image? If it cannot be free, fear will always go on.
1:43:25	JZ: The brain already has stored in it certain patterns of brain activity that lead to those thought patterns, projecting the future.
1:43:35	K: We discover how mechanical the brain is.
1:43:42	Can that mechanism stop for a while? Stop – not always word-thought-image?
1:44:02	So then, the question is, if it cannot stop – as apparently, with most people, it cannot – fear will continue.
1:44:17	So, the deeper question is, can this whole mechanistic movement of the brain quiet down?
1:44:34	Which means, much deeper, why does the brain always operate in this way?
1:44:45	Is it habit? J Z: It’s habit.
1:44:48	K: Is it habit? Is it our education – accumulating knowledge, mechanically?
1:44:59	Is it?
1:45:01	JZ: That’s how the habit was set up – yes.
1:45:05	K: So, it’s habit. Can habit come to an end instantly, not carry on? If you carry on, it becomes another habit. I don’t know if you see that. So can habit come to an end?
1:45:30	If it cannot, we’re back in the whole process of fear.
1:45:37	JZ: The habit contains words which lead to fear.
1:45:43	K: Yes – words, repetition, the mechanical process.
1:45:50	JZ: So it’s quite a knot.
1:45:52	K: I’ve discovered something enormously important, if habit doesn’t end instantly but says, ‘I’ll get rid of it in ten days’ time,’ that becomes the habit.
1:46:14	Postponement becomes the habit, to which we are educated.
1:46:27	So, then the deeper question is, can this habit end?
1:46:35	BJ: If that’s the case we have to be actually looking at fear, now.
1:46:40	K: No, no – I’ve passed beyond all that. You are supposed to be looking at it, as we are going along You were not in communication, you were not.
1:46:52	Forgive me for repeating it, you were not in communication, you we’re going on with your own thinking.
1:47:02	You were not in communication, therefore you raised that question. If you were in communication, altogether, you would then go on, every step, along with us.
1:47:18	We explained the biological, sudden incidents, like a dog jumping at you or suddenly, under foot, a branch breaking on you, with a shock – those are all biological responses, which are not fear, which are merely bodily responses. That’s natural, healthy.
1:47:41	But we’re talking of psychological fears. Fear – we said fear is word-thought and image.
1:47:53	Can that process stop? That process is mechanical and therefore, it is habitual.
1:48:05	We’re still in communication. Habitual. I say, ‘Why does the brain always repeat, repeat, repeat?’ Because it’s part of our education, it’s mechanical.
1:48:20	Can that mechanical thing stop, instantly? Not take time. If it takes time, it becomes a habit. You and I have discovered that. Ah, wait! We are in communication, not in dialogue. We’ll come to that later, through communication we have established this fact.
1:48:52	The fact: word-thought-image. The brain functions that way, mechanically. It’s part of our habit, this mechanistic process. Habit.
1:49:08	If that habit doesn’t end instantly and we say, ‘I’ll take time over it, go on with it for the next two weeks’ that becomes the habit.
1:49:32	Harsh Tanka: It’s not clear that the habit can stop.
1:49:38	K: Of course, sir – both the same.
1:49:41	BJ: He didn’t say that, Krishnaji. He said, ‘It’s not clear that the habit can stop.’ K: I beg your pardon.
1:49:50	No. We’ve come to the point in our investigation, being in communication over investigation, we have come to the point together where we have discovered for ourselves that the word-thought-image, inevitably will bring fear, and as long as this mechanical process goes on, which has become a habit, fear will go on.
1:50:24	Then we said, this thinking this way, which is habit, can that end, instantly?
1:50:42	It can, when we see what habit does, when we see the danger of habit.
1:51:00	Do you see the danger of habit?
1:51:12	JZ: Up until that point. K: Up to that point. Good. Now, wait. Do you see the danger of it? Do we see the danger of it? J Z: I see the result of it – fear.
1:51:25	K: Fear, which is dangerous.
1:51:30	JZ: We have to go into that, too.
1:51:32	K: Danger, in the sense, you can’t function properly, you’re living in… sweating, paralysis – it’s a danger.
1:51:41	JZ: It distorts your… K: It’s a danger. So, do we see in our examination that habit is a most dangerous thing?
1:51:56	Which is mechanical. You follow? If you see the danger, it’s ended.
1:52:09	So, fear can come to an end, logically, in examining it. Right?
1:52:16	JZ: It’s logical up to the last point.
1:52:19	K: What do you mean?
1:52:22	JZ: If you see the danger, then it ends.
1:52:25	K: You admitted in communion, communication, that fear is dangerous.
1:52:34	MZ: Why doesn’t it end then? K: No. Because you don’t see the habit that has prevented you from seeing the danger.
1:52:51	You say, ‘Yes, I’m afraid, I’ll suppress, I will run away.’ Those are all mechanistic responses.
1:52:59	But, in communication we see together, that word-thought-image creates fear, and fear, we said, is dangerous.
1:53:17	Do you see the danger of fear? You said, ‘Yes,’ just now.
1:53:23	JZ: Yes, we see the danger. K: Wait, wait. See the danger?
1:53:29	MZ: But we don’t see it in the way... K: Wait! Do you see the danger? We’re investigating – don’t dialogue. We are investigating. Fear is the dangerous thing. You admitted it, just now. J Z: We do see the danger of fear but it hasn’t ended.
1:53:51	K: Because you don’t see it.
1:53:54	JZ: That’s what you say. We say we see it and you say we don’t see it.
1:53:59	MZ: You’re asking us to look at habit in order to see the danger of fear.
1:54:05	K: It’s the habit that’s preventing you from seeing the danger. Full stop. It is the habit that is preventing you from seeing the tremendous danger of fear.
1:54:19	JZ: What’s preventing us from seeing the habit?
1:54:26	K: What prevents you? You’ve moved off from communication.
1:54:33	You have moved away from communication. You haven’t followed step by step, you went off...
1:54:42	JZ: Where did we go off?
1:54:45	K: When I said, ‘Do you see, in the investigation, that habit is a dangerous thing?’ you wandered away.
1:54:55	Keep to that one thing. Sir, look, let’s begin again, investigating. We said we are investigating fear, together. I said I may discover I may have fear. I’m not saying… I’m looking into it. In investigating, I’m watching it myself, I’m doing it, actually. I’m not fooling you. I’m not interested in fooling you. I see word-thought-image breeds fear. The thought process breeds fear.
1:55:36	The brain operates always in this way – routine, in a rut.
1:55:43	That rut is habit.
1:55:50	Up to now, very clear. As long as that habit, which is word-thought-image, is mechanical, there must be fear.
1:56:07	Is that clear?
1:56:10	JZ: It’s clear... K: Wait. Clear. You are investigating.
1:56:20	You are investigating in yourself, not out there.
1:56:27	I’m investigating when I say, ‘I don’t know, I may be frightened.’ I say to myself, word-thought-image – is my brain caught in this process?
1:56:50	JZ: I think it’s clear but…
1:56:57	There’s an implication that there’s a tremendous depth to it.
1:56:59	K: Because you’re not investigating.
1:57:02	JZ: When you do investigate, it’s a tremendous knot. It’s complicated, it’s not a simple thing. When you talk about the habit of brushing your hair that’s relatively trivial, but when the habit is the habit of projecting a future state and evaluating and deciding your actions, to bring about that imagined possibility, with all the implications of self in there, that’s a different kind of habit. It involves everything.
1:57:38	If you drop a relatively trivial habit you’re left with not much change.
1:57:46	K: That means you have investigated out there, a picture, but you are not investigating directly.
1:57:56	These are all details, what you’ve just now said, they are all details, but the basic thing is word-thought-image.
1:58:08	That’s the basic thing. And from there I say, ‘I see that. Is my brain caught in that routine?’ JZ: This communication is a very special thing and you haven’t got the time to do this with me or with anyone...
1:58:30	K: I’ve done it now. We’ve taken...
1:58:33	JZ: But when you say we haven’t gone into it deeply, there’s an implication that we should do our homework.
1:58:39	K: No, we are doing it now.
1:58:40	JZ: We’re doing it now but still it’s only superficial.
1:58:44	K: No, it is not superficial. You have made it superficial because you’re not investigating.
1:58:49	DB: It was deep up to a point and then it became superficial at that point.
1:58:58	JZ: At what point? DB: I can’t point it out exactly but there was a point.
1:59:05	K: There was a point when I said, ‘Do you see, in investigating, in yourself, do you see habit as the most dangerous thing?’ There you went off.
1:59:24	Then you said, ‘Habit, I brush my hair...’ You discarded that, you said that’s superficial.
1:59:53	What?
2:00:01	Right, sir? I’ve learnt an awful lot.
2:00:09	I’ve investigated into myself. As I was investigating...
2:00:16	The word-thought-image, we said is fear.
2:00:25	My brain is... Am I really doing this? Therefore, I’m subtly... unknowingly, there is fear somewhere? So, he said, ‘Is it a habit?’ I did it, actually.
2:00:43	If you did it, actually, not theoretically, you’ll come naturally to that point. That habit is the most dangerous thing, therefore... You don’t throw yourself under a bus, it is dangerous.
2:01:30	All right, sir? We’d better stop. Two hours is good enough.
2:01:42	Did you follow it? No. Are you free from it?
2:01:59	If you’re not, you haven’t really been in communication and therefore you’ve not actually applied, you have just theoretically examined it.